posted
I think we should have been on a rally since Tuesday morning. That is exactly why I'm hoping for an after hours PR, so that we catch these MMs short. If that happens we really need to stick it to them like we could have and should have on Tuesday. If we had held long and picked up a few while they were shorting this week the price would IMO be around .003 by now.
They played hard ball this week, lets all understand that and be ready for them when the PR on the buyout comes out...eom
Posts: 434 | From: NEBRASKA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
A LONG POST BUT AN EXCELLENT READ FOR THOSE THAT WONDER WHAT HAS HAPPENED THIS WEEK. POSTED BY VICSTEELE ON ANOTHER BOARD.
Posted by: vicsteele In reply to: None Date:3/23/2006 4:38:07 PM Post #of 2169
Thought this article might be of interest and help us make more money. I'm new to penny stocks,so maybe this will help other newbies.Anyway, I found it interesting.
Weekly Thoughts: Learn How to Play the Game: Invest Wisely and Trade Smartly
The savvy long-term investors never chase stocks up. For the most part that is momentum players and daytraders where most of it or what follows is dumb money. Instead the long-term investors use a couple of simple strategies in order to position themselves. One is to find a stock no one immediately sees has huge potential and accumulate. Long-term investors are not interested in trading against the public mind or the dumb money. That's where the majority of the money can be made but even more can be made if the base of a stock is held extremely strong by investors. However the second is not to doubt the research which is the underlying basis for going long and holding.
More and more investors are winning the game nowadays despite all bashers that float through the Internet that has become part of the game. Floor traders of market makers often watch CNBC, news wires and bulletin boards in order to follow the market during trading session. OTC BB market makers (MMs) don't use fundamental and technical analysis. However, what they do realize is a lot of dumb money does use this newest nitch charting or TA (Technical Analysis) to run a stock either up or down. To the MMs this is like taking candy from a baby. Simply they will paint the tape and use whatever tactic to affect the charting bands. Thus the public and dumb money they will have eating out of their hands. Effectively the MMs can show a strong stock growing weak by manipulating the close price in order to generate selling volume, delaying trading time to manipulate trading activities, or even stalling the ask without honoring orders to hold a stock price.
MMs follow a simple code of business when making a market in a stock especially an OTC BB. That is the level that stocks will seek that yields the most volume. Now this is very important because they make money on the volume buying at the bid and selling at the ask. In other words, by making the market they are buying low and selling high. Now smart money adheres to that rule, so do all the market makers. They could careless whether the stock is at $83 or at $0.23. All they care about is the action thus being able to sell stock at the offer (The high) and buy stock at the bid (The low). To increase their profitability, they make the spread as great as possible on as many shares as they can especially if the volume falls off.
When they have mostly all "buy" orders, that's not the price that's going to yield the most volume. They need both buy and sells to get the maximum action. Remember, MMs play the volume. If the volume decreases and there are mostly Buys that become a one way volume, Buy volume. So what they do is let the stock run up to a price where it runs out of steam. They fill all the buy orders there that they can and then comes the pullback one way or another naturally or induced. During the pull back they can buy tons of shares and flip them to those averaging down or trying to catch the bounce. At some price, the stock will be relatively stable and yield the most volume. Now that is the average price you will see
The average price is the point where a stock seeks a level where MMs can profit on the most volume. So during the day that is the price that MMs and momentum/day traders want to see the stock at. Why? Because they know the public and dumb money was chasing the price thing up. Most of the time, the MMs love a flurry of Market Orders which is a dead sign of an artificial run or momentum. Merely it is money in the bank for them. Most get hung in a momentum or day trade or by the tactics of Market makers, who are in the business to screw the public every chance they get and the NASD is not going to do anything about it. They are merely making the market liquid is there reasoning.
The market makers have created an added complication to the OTCBB's chaos of the already volatile intra-day price movements created by dumb money, momentum and day-traders. MMs can not relate to long-term holders in the OTC BB. That makes absolutely no sense what so ever. They feel a large percentage of trades in the OTC BB market consist of short-term or day-trades, MMs merely view the barrage of buy and sell orders as relatively neutral to the market. How they figure it is when the average dumb money buys shares in a company, the MMs feel or rather know with some certainty it is very likely that dumb money will want to sell back those shares relatively quick on the slightest drop.
Now somewhat comfortable with this logic the MMs merely short sells into the buying and attempts to take the stock down in an effort to "shake out" the weak. Since it is tough to know for sure whether a move is the beginning of a trend, or a routine shake out, this type of deception works quite well for the MMs. What the long-termers do to a stock is surprise the MMs because instead of falling the shorting has no effect and the price goes up. Now that puts the MM at selling low through shorting and thus having to buy high in order to cover.
Boy, when this happens, the MMs are not very happy campers. The investors and traders are supposed to be doing that no them. Now it becomes time to pull out every trick and tactic in the book in order to attempt to get a Bear Raid at every dollar mark or percent from where the stock started. Could be a penny in smaller priced securities? What MMs do is give you a chance to make a small amount of money for your momentum and day trading style by shorting it at these levels and trying to get a bear raid each time. Each failure is compounding the MMs short position so they let it go to the next level. Now come more deliberate tactics MMs use to coerce Bear Raid or panic selling.
Once the MM is caught short and the strength of the buy is overpowering the MM will want to cover his short position. So the MMs call up one of his friendly MMs and says some like "the weather is sure rough today." The MM along with the other "friendly MM initiates a down tick about the same time. Now this can also be done with a certain amount of shares such as an infamous 100 shares flag. This down tick gives the illusion of weakness designed to hopefully begin the bear raid of selling. The fickle, fearful, day trader, momentum and short term begin to sell out allowing the MM to cover his short position at lower prices. They will move it down quickly to get it to a price of least financial damage. Problem they have is long-term investors in the OTC BB. They start accumulating and buying comes flying in when they take it too far thus the MMs took it to the point of volume again and not only investors the other MMs step in the make money on the spread.
Alas the poor MM does not get to cover. Now comes various tactics like stalling, boxing, or even locking the Bid and Ask for a while.
Of course, MMs aggressively deny any sort of collusion designed to fix quotes or spreads, but a recent SEC investigation tells another story.
MMs have a vast resource of tactics and it would take probably more than my lifetime to figure them all out.
So how do investors somehow manage to overcome the obvious deception in OTCBB arena? One answer is indirection trading style by going long which the MMs do not expect. In the war between investors and public companies on the OTC BB vs the MMs, if the MMs have all the advantages due to position or other factors, direct confrontation such as momentum or day trading hitting the stock is a definite death sentence.
However, an indirect approach tends to weaken the path of least resistance before slowly overcoming it. The most effective way is long-term investors slowly accumulating and holding thus drawing the MMs out of its defenses making them as naked as their short position. This is war so this slow accumulation and holding for the long term easily achieves the desired effect to force MMs to cover and knock off the tactics or bury themselves deeper.
The MMs when caught will especially use every trick and tactic in the book to get a Bear Raid thus playing on the individual fear of most people. The MMs feel they have information and position advantages over the investors as long as the holding of the stock is in weak hands or short term holders. Since they are OTC BB MMs who believe all OTCBB companies are not worth investing and management is ineffective regardless what is happening within the company. Furthermore, MMs know they are in the position to impose a great deal of influence in OTC BB stocks trading when it suits their needs.
This inherent power of position enables the MMs to move the markets at any time up or down. As a result, the only way to draw them out of their favorable position is going long. Now this does not mean just any company but to effectively nail the MMs, Longs must find the great company on the floor and accumulate long before the MM tactics and games begin.
Posts: 434 | From: NEBRASKA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I hope everyone took the time to read past the first few paragraphs and get to the meat of the post. It truly does describe whats been going on here.
Posts: 434 | From: NEBRASKA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
i just can't believe how hard it is for this stock to move.. we're basically back where we started..
Posts: 330 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
wow. if you wanna know how the MMs work this post has it down. If i had more $$$$ id help in further taking some shares off the market at the sweet sweet price of .0006. Tomorrow should be interesting. lets go JPHC. -Cow
-------------------- drummer. rock and cash all that matter. Posts: 294 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
ajman, THANK YOU. That is the best article I've read in a long time. Too true. BTW, my trading improved overnight when I quit chart analysis on OTCs. I still look at charts to see where the company has been, but never for potential.
posted
I got to admit I still look at the charts myself, but where I used to rely on them I now more just look for trends. Volume is what I look for first anymore.
Posts: 434 | From: NEBRASKA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Dogcatcher17 said there probably won't be a letter of intent. The deal may be done next week.
-------------------- corn oil comes from corn, olive oil from olives, where does baby oil come from? Posts: 441 | From: Vulcan | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ajman: I got to admit I still look at the charts myself, but where I used to rely on them I now more just look for trends. Volume is what I look for first anymore.
Yes - volume is key. If you want to find a darling, and don't mind holding, look for low volume (lower is better) and rock bottom price. Count name changes and R/S history (lower the better). Search for news/company PR (use judgement here - look for a company goal).Check MM positions (the more lopsided the better). Read filings when available (the whole thing). Some of them are entertaining, better than a soap opera.
My most favorite (and profitable) play, I don't mind holding long at all. In these situations, sometimes just one buy gets the MMs all excited and they make a pre-bump (lack of a better word) and I may or may not take back my capital and ride free for the real run.
This is how I came across JPHC so long ago. I never would have posted my pick - I don't deal with ridicule very well. Since then, I've bought and sold this baby many times. I'm gonna miss her when she marries (=acquired).
Now here's the sad thing - the MMs run the pps down with their shorting and upset the shareholders, the shareholders carp at the company to do something about it and/or eventually sell at a loss. Several more steps in here, but eventually the company has to R/S, which is the exact opposite of what they should do. Guess who gets happy here? (clue - their initials are MM)
Fortunately, more and more companies are fighting back. One litte stock dividend (shares or cash, whatever) shakes out the shorts and puts the pps and market cap back to where it should be.
The MMs are meant to maintain liquidity, not manipulate pps. Hopefully, they'll 'get religion' before all the new rules are enforced.
posted
Hopefully we start up toward our valuation price today. It would be nice to get a PR before market opens today just to catch the shorts off guard, we'll see what happens. If it's not before the market opens then after or over the weekend would be best. Don't want it during business hours where the MMs can mess with us before everyone knows about it.
Posts: 434 | From: NEBRASKA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
seeing 7.. always a good thing!!! Well i'm off for the day... don't see much happening here anyways without a PR out... am holding for at least another week I'd say!!! Hope i wont lose my hair between JPHC and GWGO both have major news coming out soon!!!!! Money always = stress --- unless you have it... i just want it
You'll have a good weekend and Friday!!! Gone to help a friend move!
Posts: 610 | From: Victoria | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Hey all, over on RB a guy called rider is countin up shares of longs. I've never been able to to sign on (RB). If anyone has a login over there, let him know I have a whole 2.1 million...ok?
and No, he dosen't know me... thanks!
-------------------- "Remember... no matter where you go, there you are." - Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome Posts: 261 | From: BFE | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
An Excerpt from a post by Vicsteele on another board. An Excellent read if you have time, the complete post is above on this page.
The market makers have created an added complication to the OTCBB's chaos of the already volatile intra-day price movements created by dumb money, momentum and day-traders. MMs can not relate to long-term holders in the OTC BB. That makes absolutely no sense what so ever. They feel a large percentage of trades in the OTC BB market consist of short-term or day-trades, MMs merely view the barrage of buy and sell orders as relatively neutral to the market. How they figure it is when the average dumb money buys shares in a company, the MMs feel or rather know with some certainty it is very likely that dumb money will want to sell back those shares relatively quick on the slightest drop.
Now somewhat comfortable with this logic the MMs merely short sells into the buying and attempts to take the stock down in an effort to "shake out" the weak. Since it is tough to know for sure whether a move is the beginning of a trend, or a routine shake out, this type of deception works quite well for the MMs. What the long-termers do to a stock is surprise the MMs because instead of falling the shorting has no effect and the price goes up. Now that puts the MM at selling low through shorting and thus having to buy high in order to cover.
The point is, if we hold long we screw up the MMs and take some of their money for a change.Posts: 434 | From: NEBRASKA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I'd take that bet since we're at 57M now about an hour and ten minutes in.
I think people will jump on for the weekend not wanting to miss the PR. Last PR came after hours, and I know that JPHC is aware of the shorting going on, so I'm willing to bet the next one comes out when markets are closed too.
Posts: 434 | From: NEBRASKA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
man I don't know if you guys follow the RB board, but there's these desperate shorts on there that are imitating dogcatcher17 by using names like dogcotcher17, dogcatcherr17, dogcather17, ... amazing the lengths these people will go to drive the pps down, how can anyone with a brain fall for that?!
Posts: 304 | From: Belgium | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
got a link to RB boards? Man i love these boards by the way, thank god for google. Its amazing the MODs keep all the bashers and haters away. Great community here.
-------------------- drummer. rock and cash all that matter. Posts: 294 | Registered: Mar 2006
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-------------------- corn oil comes from corn, olive oil from olives, where does baby oil come from? Posts: 441 | From: Vulcan | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
ask is going to start to break down this afternoon, close at 8
-------------------- Choosing individual stocks without any idea of what you're looking for (or without reliable information) is like running through a dynamite factory with a burning match. You may live, but your still an idiot. Posts: 5320 | From: Syracuse, NY | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
hope I can snag some at 6 or 7 on monday though, a good amount of cash is clearing to throw at this beast
-------------------- Choosing individual stocks without any idea of what you're looking for (or without reliable information) is like running through a dynamite factory with a burning match. You may live, but your still an idiot. Posts: 5320 | From: Syracuse, NY | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Its starting its shift already the bid is building, I think you're right, we'll see 8 today without news.
Hopefully get news over the weekend so we have time to convince everyone not to sell and make the MMs chase to cover for a change.
Posts: 434 | From: NEBRASKA | Registered: Feb 2005
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-------------------- "Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right." - Henry Ford Posts: 798 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Hmm is it me or for the first time I am able to see l2's for the first time on my etrade account. I use to never be able to see it, always had to use pink sheets.com. Maybe they're finally listing on the otcbb
Posts: 58 | Registered: Nov 2005
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