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Author Topic: 7 Year old dies of gunshot to head
glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
getting what exaclty?

This is the guns thread right?

The argument is that making stricter rules on gun purchases will only make it harder for law abiding citizens to purchase weapons yes? That criminals will be able to get their hands on em no matter how tough the rules get? So...Where are these criminals getting all these illegal guns if not from legal buyers? Please don't tell me you think they all fell off the back of a truck.

i'm asking waht guns?

because when i hear people say ban assualt weapons? i point to the stats that show assualt weapons are rarely used in crimes.

in 94? when the ban was put in place?


Supporters of the ban also argued that "assault weapons" are disproportionately represented among guns used in crimes. "Although assault weapons account for less than 1% of the guns in circulation," wrote former Presidents Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, and Ronald Reagan in a letter to House members, "they account for nearly 10 percent of the guns traced to crime." This number refers to weapons traced by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. But gun-control scholar David Kopel reports that the BATF traces less than 2 percent of the guns used in violent crime each year, and the sample is not representative.
As Kopel notes, "assault weapons" are more likely to be traced than other guns precisely because they are unusual and have been the subject of so much attention. Furthermore, almost all of them were made after the Gun Control Act of 1968 and therefore have serial numbers, which are necessary to do a trace. Inventories of guns seized from criminals in major cities indicate that trace figures vastly overstate the use of "assault weapons" in crime. Summarizing data from 24 such inventories, criminologist Gary Kleck writes: "Virtually all of these studies show that only 0 to 4 percent of confiscated guns are assault weapons.


you'll note that two GOP's were involved in supporting the ban too.

now what is an assault weapon? and what crimes are they used in?

hard to find the stats..


America's Most Wanted Guns
By Elaine Shannon/Washington Friday, Jul. 12, 2002

The top 10 guns used in crimes in the U.S. in 2000, according to an unpublished study by U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and obtained exclusively by TIME:

1. Smith and Wesson .38 revolver
2. Ruger 9 mm semiautomatic
3. Lorcin Engineering .380 semiautomatic
4. Raven Arms .25 semiautomatic
5. Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun
6. Smith and Wesson 9mm semiautomatic
7. Smith and Wesson .357 revolver
8. Bryco Arms 9mm semiautomatic
9. Bryco Arms .380 semiautomatic
10. Davis Industries .380 semiautomatic


 -

The list is derived from the center's investigations of 88,570 guns recovered from crime scenes in 46 cities in 2000, is being analyzed for ATF's youth gun crime interdiction initiative, which helps local police forces understand and counter gun trafficking to youth in their jurisdictions.


http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,320383,00.html

these are also the most common guns and are the least expensive of the common guns

in other words? most criminals are looking for cheap throw away often stolen guns..


most gun enthusiats are not interested in them

you'll notice none of them have bayonete lugs. or even high capacity magazines..

in fact? my take on the assault weapons ban was that it was all about the private militias that wer popping up all over the place... tim mcveigh being one of the main reasons..

the Founding Fathers most definitley had revolution on th4eir mind when they stated that the right of the people to keep and bear arms was not to be infringed. they were after all Revolutionaries themselves.

One measure by which ATF gauges a gun's appeal as an offensive (rather than a defensive or sporting) weapon is its "time-to-crime" factor — how long after its sale it is used in a crime. Revolvers, not generally used as an offensive weapon, had a median time-to-crime of 12.3 years, according to the 2000 figures. At the other extreme, Bryco Arms 9mm semiautomatics recovered from kids younger than18 had a median time-to-crime of 1.5 years, and those recovered from suspects aged 18 to 24 had a median time-to-crime of 1.1 years. The Hi Point 9mm is another downscale semiautomatic frequently seized from suspects in the 18-to-24 age range; it has a time-to-crime span of just one year.

now, see if you can find me stats showing how many guns obtained legally or illegallt are used to actually hurt or kill someone...

cuz they obvioulsy confiscate a heckofalot more guns than are actually used to hurt someone.

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:

one of my cards recently raised their rates and said if oi don't agree? to send them the card. i don't care cuz i don't carry a balance, but if i did? id' be shopping for another

Happened to me.... with Sears Mastercard... they raised my rate without warning and said I can get back my old rate but then the account would be closed... so i told them close it then and give me back my old rate...

I think the CC's are the biggest crooks of all... they are worst then the Mafia's loansharks.... at least the Mob gives you fixed rates and warn you before they kneecap you lol

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
[QUOTE]That is a pretty weak comparison...

My argument is this...the LAWS ALREADY EXIST to stop criminals from getting them legally

And my argument is that SOMEONE is getting them legally. It is not Russian surplus that is ending up in the streets. Someone IS getting them legally and illegally transferring them.
Umm u mean strawbuying? I don't think Retired is aware of that since he seems to be in denial about it...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

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Robot
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
quote:
Originally posted by Robot:
Oh Glass,

Thanks for the info on assault weapons. I pick on them because I think the only reason most people fight so hard to keep them legal is that they "can be" converted back to full auto if needed.

as a USN gunner's mate? i was trained on how each firearm in our arsenal worked. and how to maintains them

there a couple of very old models of semi-auto that can be converted.

you have to realise that full auto is very hard on the metals used to make the parts.

not only is it illegal to manufacture and sell the parts to convert guns to full auto without a license, you must replace more than just the "needed" parts if the guns will last more than two or three minutes becuase the semi-auto parts won't hold up. somebody can make the gun fire full auto, but by the time they have practiced with it? it won't be operable anymore. there was recent case of a guy that got jail time for firing a gun rigged to work full auto- the prosecution was ludicrous because the thing required several specific conditions to fire full auto, and was not only unpredictable, but impractical....

i posted earlier that a half million dollars worth of machine eqpt would be about right. that's not what i call "easy"..

it takes aloto f knowledge to run each peice of eqpt and the tolerances are very demanding if you want the machine (gun) to work continuously and correcly. which anybody putting their life on th eline absolutely wants [Wink] full auto requires alotof moving parts to reverse direction in the 100 times per second range...

that kind of manufacturing is organised crime at the level of major drug production.

a criminal organisation at that level could make them in the Jungles of Central America with impunity and sell them anywhere they wanted...

they will eventually do just that too...

I know you can do older models but wasn't sure when the manufactures started using lower quality metals for the semi autos.

It may be illegal but people still love to try.
Full auto can be deadly compared to a good single shot every few seconds. It would not surprise me to here that more than a few bad gun dealers could supply these parts and that the parts came from off shore.

You have a good point as far as how long the weapon will last but I think they will last long enough to pay for them selves.


there was recent case of a guy that got jail time for firing a gun rigged to work full auto- the prosecution was ludicrous because the thing required several specific conditions to fire full auto, and was not only unpredictable, but impractical....

I am sure there is more to the story but if he broke the law then...................

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Robot
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quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
Like I have been saying all along...the BAD GUYS will get guns regardless of how many laws we create to stop them...

I personally think it's foolish to be without one...

Not so much how many laws but which laws and who do they apply too and most of all are they going to enforce them.

Spitting on the sidewalk is illegal up here, but I don't think anyone has gotten a ticket for it since like 1920 something.


If I lived in Detroit I would have to agree with you.

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Robot
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Another problem with guns is that they last a very long time. If and when guns are restricted or some models are band it will take 20, 30, 40 years to get rid of the illegal ones on the streets. And yes the crime rate will go up, for a while. The kicker is will it eventually go down. Lots of us believe it will, and make for a better place for our children.
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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by Robot:
Another problem with guns is that they last a very long time. If and when guns are restricted or some models are band it will take 20, 30, 40 years to get rid of the illegal ones on the streets. And yes the crime rate will go up, for a while. The kicker is will it eventually go down. Lots of us believe it will, and make for a better place for our children.

+10

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Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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buckstalker
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So...Robot and Mach...what I am hearing you both say, is that you REALLY do want to see guns banned...

surprise...surprise

This is EXACTLY why people like Glass and I will fight new gun laws and restrictions to the end...because the REAL agenda is to get rid of all guns...

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glassman
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i too was waiting for that admission.

it always comes if you keep the discussion going long enough.

the sad part is that i would like nothing better than for people to become more enlightened.

the reality is that we are going to have to kill a lot of people to weed out the unenlightened offspring of the unenlightened.

eugenics anyone?

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glassman
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the way i figure it? in 40 years we could stop all violence by sterilising every person that gets mad at somebody and yells at them too. [Roll Eyes]

in the menatime we just ban all those inexpnsive POS guns that the criminals really use.

of course that would be discriminatory against the most common victims of violent crimes too [BadOne] because they cannot afford 1000$ for a quality gun with an RFID chip that recognises the owner. said owner having spent another 5000$ gotting the matching implant chip that also ID's them at every police checkpoint and anyplace else that wants to know who they are automatically.


the fact is that if we want gun crimes to go down? we only need to educate young people starting at 2 or three. educate them in such away that they have the ability to LEARN in the classroom environment. Most everybody can learn, but not everybody is suited to be in the classroom. Street gangs are always full of people that cannot learn in the classroom, but they can learn "on the street"

this is when we lose them. before they are 6. at 7 years old? they have already been trained to learn in the way they will learn for the rest of their life.

most street crime is committed by people that have very few opportunities in life. they were neglected at critical stages of life that leave them frustrated and angry as they watch other people seemingly do whatever they want whenever they want.

accidents? they'll always happen.

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Pagan
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
the way i figure it? in 40 years we could stop all violence by sterilising every person that gets mad at somebody and yells at them too. [Roll Eyes]

in the menatime we just ban all those inexpnsive POS guns that the criminals really use.

of course that would be discriminatory against the most common victims of violent crimes too [BadOne] because they cannot afford 1000$ for a quality gun with an RFID chip that recognises the owner. said owner having spent another 5000$ gotting the matching implant chip that also ID's them at every police checkpoint and anyplace else that wants to know who they are automatically.


the fact is that if we want gun crimes to go down? we only need to educate young people starting at 2 or three. educate them in such away that they have the ability to LEARN in the classroom environment. Most everybody can learn, but not everybody is suited to be in the classroom. Street gangs are always full of people that cannot learn in the classroom, but they can learn "on the street"

this is when we lose them. before they are 6. at 7 years old? they have already been trained to learn in the way they will learn for the rest of their life.

most street crime is committed by people that have very few opportunities in life. they were neglected at critical stages of life that leave them frustrated and angry as they watch other people seemingly do whatever they want whenever they want.

accidents? they'll always happen.

Personally, I've never advocated a ban on guns. I believe the old adage is true, "If you outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have guns". I think stricter background checks would be helpful. But here's the rub....it's normally not the law abiding registered gun owner killing people. It is the illegally obtained guns on the street that cause the majority of the deaths.

We need to find a way to get the guns off the streets, and out of criminal hands. And to be honest, banning guns is not the answer. But I don't see a feasible way to make that happen. It's a cunundrum to say the least.

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It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

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buckstalker
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+10

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It's all in the timing...

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glassman
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why are those people on the streets?

i know why, i grew up inside the DC beltway and repoed offa them.

i lived in SoCali and was very involved in several community colleges there. i saw and worked with the few kids who were trying hard to get off the streets.

it really is about opportunity.

want to cut crime?

make "headstart" mandatory.

pay the people who teach and work directly with our kids double what we are now. stop paying school adminstrators too much. put much more phys ed into schools starting in elementary school and increase it- this will allow boys to work on controlling and directing their "testosterone poisoning"

make teaching a more competitve career. teachers get burnt out quick because they feel like everybody disrespects them, the kids the parents the boss.

i just had a long drawn out "discussion" with the guidance counselors at one of my kids schools because they don't want to give an advanced class yet. i insisted, the counseleor said they usually have parents complaining about their kids having too hard of classes [Roll Eyes]

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Pagan
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
why are those people on the streets?

i know why, i grew up inside the DC beltway and repoed offa them.

i lived in SoCali and was very involved in several community colleges there. i saw and worked with the few kids who were trying hard to get off the streets.

it really is about opportunity.

want to cut crime?

make "headstart" mandatory.

pay the people who teach and work directly with our kids double what we are now. stop paying school adminstrators too much. put much more phys ed into schools starting in elementary school and increase it- this will allow boys to work on controlling and directing their "testosterone poisoning"

make teaching a more compettitve career. teachers get burn out quick because htey feel like everybody disrespects them.

i just had a long drawn out "discussion" with the guidance counsleors at one of my kids school because they don't want to give an advanced calls yet. i insited, the counsleor said they usually have parent complaining about their kids have ing too hard of classes [Roll Eyes]

You keep referring to "people on the streets". That has nothing to do with the gun violence. Homeless people can't afford guns to start with. The "people on the street", aka gangs, thugs, criminals, etc choose that life. To think otherwise is naive at best. People have been espousing the education scenario for years, and what do we have to show for it? Zip! Other than more gun related deaths.

People have the opportunity to better themselves and lead productive lives. Some choose to be thugs and have decided it's easier to sell drugs and rob people for money than it is to work. It's a choice Glassy. We all have that choice.

--------------------
It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

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glassman
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The "people on the street", aka gangs, thugs, criminals, etc choose that life. To think otherwise is naive at best

hmmmm... early childhood development studies suggest otherwise.
our society loses alot of kids before we ever even get them into our system.

kids that end up in gangs can pretty much be spotted by teachers in early elem school.

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Pagan
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
The "people on the street", aka gangs, thugs, criminals, etc choose that life. To think otherwise is naive at best

hmmmm... early childhood development studies suggest otherwise.
our society loses alot of kids before we ever even get them into our system.

kids that end up in gangs can pretty much be spotted by teachers in early elem school.

So lemme get this straight. Your saying teachers in elementary schools should be "profiling" kids?!?!!? That's crazy. .

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It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

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The Bigfoot
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
i too was waiting for that admission.

it always comes if you keep the discussion going long enough.

the sad part is that i would like nothing better than for people to become more enlightened.

the reality is that we are going to have to kill a lot of people to weed out the unenlightened offspring of the unenlightened.

eugenics anyone?

LOL

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The Bigfoot
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quote:
Originally posted by Pagan:
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
The "people on the street", aka gangs, thugs, criminals, etc choose that life. To think otherwise is naive at best

hmmmm... early childhood development studies suggest otherwise.
our society loses alot of kids before we ever even get them into our system.

kids that end up in gangs can pretty much be spotted by teachers in early elem school.

So lemme get this straight. Your saying teachers in elementary schools should be "profiling" kids?!?!!? That's crazy. .
It is subconscious profiling and discrimination but he's right. Education has a huge role here and too often we are dropping the ball.

Personally I would like most 'teaching' to be done by computers in the near future. One on one ratio with unlimited patience. The tech just hasn't arrived yet that can adapt to an individuals best learning style. Teachers would still be important as role models, group leaders, emotional support but let the information come devoid of social cues and miscues.

Oh...and Glass. You won't get me saying I want a ban. No matter how many times you erroneously use the word in our conversation. [Smile]

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glassman
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So lemme get this straight. Your saying teachers in elementary schools should be "profiling" kids?!?!!? That's crazy. .

i know that the world is crazy Pagan. some say that people who think the world is crazy are crazy themselves [Big Grin]

profiling is a strong word.

ask a teacher who's been at it for awhile. they'll tell you what i am talking about...

some argue that paying teachers more would bring in the profiteers. my attitude is that kids would benefit from exposure to more professional people.

i was a kid who hated school from the beginning to the end. the only way i could stand it was phys ed and sports. for me? sitting at a seat for more than ten minutes was torture. now that i'm older? it's more like twenty minutes.

i don't like to go to movies for the same reason..

i have been to about 10 movies since 2000... lord of the rings -big fish- and i took the brats to a couple harry potters... that's it.

some people are not cut out to sit on their butts and i'm one of them.

i can walk into a room and completely describe it to you after one minute. of course i couldn't tell you the names of all the books or how many penicls and pens are in the holders, but i can draw a map that would show where everything is in relationship to each other. make me sit still for fifteen minutes? and i start becoming a candidate for punishment tho. "ants in the pants" they called it when i was real young, now they give kids pills to reform them [Roll Eyes]

it runs in my family too

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Pagan
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
So lemme get this straight. Your saying teachers in elementary schools should be "profiling" kids?!?!!? That's crazy. .

i know that the world is crazy Pagan. some say that people who think the world is crazy are crazy themselves [Big Grin]

profiling is a strong word.

ask a teacher who's been at it for awhile. they'll tell you what i am talking about...

some argue that paying teachers more would bring in the profiteers. my attitude is that kids would benefit from exposure to more professional people.

i was a kid who hated school from the beginning to the end. the only way i could stand it was phys ed and sports. for me? sitting at a seat for more than ten minutes was torture. now that i'm older? it's more like twenty minutes.

i don't like to go to movies for the same reason..

i have been to about 10 movies since 2000... lord of the rings -big fish- and i took the brats to a couple harry potters... that's it.

some people are not cut out to sit on their butts and i'm one of them.

i can walk into a room and completely describe it to you after one minute. of course i couldn't tell you the names of all the books or how many penicls and pens are in the holders, but i can draw a map that would show where everything is in relationship to each other. make me sit still for fifteen minutes? and i start becoming a candidate for punishment tho. "ants in the pants" they called it when i was real young, now they give kids pills to reform them [Roll Eyes]

it runs in my family too

Don't you "sit" for hours on end whilst blowing glass? Or do you stand during the process? Every fair/artshow I've been to, the guy is always sitting and doing the glasswork. Maybe it just takes something to to peak your interest to kill the ants. Ya think?

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It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

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The Bigfoot
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Originally by glassman:
quote:
i'm asking waht guns?

because when i hear people say ban assualt weapons? i point to the stats that show assualt weapons are rarely used in crimes.



You are continuing to ask what guns as if I have a particular style in mind. (Another way of trying to force me to say I want to ban something. Good attempt, but that isn't the conversation here either.) Here is the full back and forth from start to finish.

Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
quote:
Lawless will always remain lawless no matter how much you use crime as an excuse to ban firearms. People just want a good scapegoat to their fears and blaming guns for crime is a good way to make them feel better.



Originally posted by Bigfoot:
quote:
No...close but not quite. Lawless will always remain lawless, on that we totally agree. The idea isn't to scapegoat fears onto guns, it is the thought that if we could find a way to limit the amount of projectile weapons available to the lawless then they must turn to other forms of destruction. Unintended targets would no longer be victims and both the rules of law and the rules of the street would be more straightforward.

Does that make sense to you?



Originally posted by retiredat49:
quote:
So you want to create laws that the lawless won't adhere to?...make s no sense Big...

Only law abiding people are going to follow your "laws" and "controls" concerning projectile weapons, and those people aren't the problem...

I'll say it again very clearly...criminals are GOING to get guns, no matter how many laws you create to stop them from getting them...



Originally posted by Bigfoot:
quote:
Kinda like how everybody is going to speed no matter what the limit is set at? Are you saying then that we should not post speed limits?



Originally posted by retiredat49:
quote:
That is a pretty weak comparison...

My argument is this...the LAWS ALREADY EXIST to stop criminals from getting them legally...making it harder for law abiding citizens to get a gun is NOT going to stop the criminals from getting them...isn't that who you want to stop?...the criminals?

So why would you want to make it harder for law abiding citizens to get them, when you state it's the criminals you want to prevent from getting them? (unless you REALLY don't want ANYONE to have them)



Originally posted by Bigfoot:
quote:
And my argument is that SOMEONE is getting them legally. It is not Russian surplus that is ending up in the streets. Someone IS getting them legally and illegally transferring them.



Originally posted by glassman:
quote:
getting what exaclty?


Originally posted by Bigfoot:
quote:
This is the guns thread right?

The argument is that making stricter rules on gun purchases will only make it harder for law abiding citizens to purchase weapons yes? That criminals will be able to get their hands on em no matter how tough the rules get? So...Where are these criminals getting all these illegal guns if not from legal buyers? Please don't tell me you think they all fell off the back of a truck.



And here is where the conversation is sidetracked to what type of guns are used for what crime. Good information to have but not what I was speaking about.

Where are all these guns (no matter the type) coming from that end up in the hands of all these criminals for whom it is illegal to purchase a gun? If our laws are being circumvented to allow illegal transport and distribution of firearms on such a large scale without any ability to backtrack the weapons previous history so that we can hold the illegal traffickers responsible then it stands to reason that our laws need a review and rewrite.

I am not out to take your guns away. I am out to find a way to hold responsible those who choose to ignore the law and give or sell guns to these 18 yr old kids who are killing each other along with innocent bystanders. With fewer weapons being released in such an illegal and irresponsible fashion the end result should be fewer gun related crimes and fewer gun related homicides. This is my ultimate and only goal.

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glassman
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Don't you "sit" for hours on end whilst blowing glass? Or do you stand during the process? Every fair/artshow I've been to, the guy is always sitting and doing the glasswork. Maybe it just takes something to to peak your interest to kill the

OK, to make a peice at the torch? you have to sit.

i only make beads which are about 20 minutes each, and am totally engrossed in the process, which makes it easier.

furnace work, which is what i prefer to do, do better and is much more profitable requires me to stand up and sit down over an dover again.

the lighter and more delicate the peice? the more often..

i would guess that i average about 20 stand ups to do a 45 minute peice.

most people edit their videos to cut out the "boring parts" (standing and sitting and reheating

i don't have any of my videos on line yet, moslty cuz i don't have a good cameraman, and i can't putt he video's that shoot of others online without a release, and i only video masters who are difficult to come ot agreements with.

it's a shame too, because i know how to do the work and can anticipate exaclty where and when to be to get the best shots.

i've taken classes with this guy (Elio Quarisa)and have 60 hours of video of him but we could not come to an agreement on how to market them. basically he was not allowed to earn money in the states at the time i shot them due to Italian social security laws. i hear he got caught making money but not because of me or my work.

this guy is arguably the best replicator of "antique" Italian blown glass in the world:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5suvBNVTks

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The Bigfoot
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-Sidebar-

quote:
Originally posted by glassman:

i can walk into a room and completely describe it to you after one minute. [/QB]

I am a diagnosed ADDer too though I don't have the hyperactive nature. Got diagnosed when they kicked me out of college after my first year so I could appeal.

I couldn't draw you a map worth crap (they say my recall is excellent but my internal filing system has no structure to it) but I left the doc speechless when it came to repeating numerical strings.

The drugs don't help me but understanding and recognizing how my attention wanders helped me immensely in learning how to control it when it really matters.

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glassman
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but I left the doc speechless when it came to repeating numerical strings.

my wife is like that. but her spatial cognition is bankrupt. she obviously don't got ADD

she got her phd with a 3.9something (physics only B)

i have been able to watch a guy like ht guy above in the vidoe and then replicate his work almost exaclty the next day.

i avoid replication for anything but practice tho.

when i get a so-called "new idea"? i spend alotof time on image google search to verify that nobody else is doing it...

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The Bigfoot
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Your wife and mine should get together sometime. Mine makes me look like a dimwit. [Big Grin]

frequently [Wall Bang]

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i've never been diagnosed, too old, and too late to make a difference..

last month? i made five scupltures all at the same time and finished them all on the same day, one day before the show. it went very well [Big Grin]

i also did three festivals that month

no drawings, but they all came out just as i planned them.. i figured out a few "tricks" to make it work...

one sculpture at one time would prolly never get finished.

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
So...Robot and Mach...what I am hearing you both say, is that you REALLY do want to see guns banned...

surprise...surprise

This is EXACTLY why people like Glass and I will fight new gun laws and restrictions to the end...because the REAL agenda is to get rid of all guns...

Nope, just agreeing with Robot that in the perfect world that is what should be done but I know that is not the reality... For reality I agree with BF more so...

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:

And here is where the conversation is sidetracked to what type of guns are used for what crime. Good information to have but not what I was speaking about.

Where are all these guns (no matter the type) coming from that end up in the hands of all these criminals for whom it is illegal to purchase a gun? If our laws are being circumvented to allow illegal transport and distribution of firearms on such a large scale without any ability to backtrack the weapons previous history so that we can hold the illegal traffickers responsible then it stands to reason that our laws need a review and rewrite.

I am not out to take your guns away. I am out to find a way to hold responsible those who choose to ignore the law and give or sell guns to these 18 yr old kids who are killing each other along with innocent bystanders. With fewer weapons being released in such an illegal and irresponsible fashion the end result should be fewer gun related crimes and fewer gun related homicides. This is my ultimate and only goal.

As always you say it the best BF... at least you are not in denial... [Were Up]

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Robot
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quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
So...Robot and Mach...what I am hearing you both say, is that you REALLY do want to see guns banned...

surprise...surprise

This is EXACTLY why people like Glass and I will fight new gun laws and restrictions to the end...because the REAL agenda is to get rid of all guns...

Posted by Robot:
"If and when guns are restricted or some models are band........"


Thanks for putting words in my mouth Retired.

Glass, kinda surprised you jumped in on this one. I have gone over my post and uh, you guys are gonna hafta show me where I indicate I would like to ban all guns.

I would like to see some of the guns gone but I have said and indicated that from day one. Not news.

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glassman
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uh? this is fairly clearly stated.

If and when guns are restricted or some models are band it will take 20, 30, 40 years to get rid of the illegal ones on the streets.


the very last guns to "go" will be the illegal ones. honest people will turn over theirs first. ofcourse criminals always seem to be able to get what they want anyway

law enforcement and military will then do as they please because there will be no-one to stop them..

what's the difference between restricted and banned?

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buckstalker
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Robot...here is your post in it's entirety...

Another problem with guns is that they last a very long time. If and when guns are restricted or some models are band it will take 20, 30, 40 years to get rid of the illegal ones on the streets. And yes the crime rate will go up, for a while. The kicker is will it eventually go down. Lots of us believe it will, and make for a better place for our children.

I don't have to put words in your mouth...it is very clear that you hope/want to see guns banned....

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Robot
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uh? this is fairly clearly stated.
****************************************************
Posted by Robot:
If and when guns are restricted or some models are band it will take 20, 30, 40 years to get rid of the illegal ones on the streets.
****************************************************


Don't agree. Maybe I could have added ""some" guns" at the beginning.

As you say guns are already restricted and not available to everyone. Maybe not restricted enough.

the very last guns to "go" will be the illegal ones. honest people will turn over theirs first. ofcourse criminals always seem to be able to get what they want anyway

I just said almost the same thing.

law enforcement and military will then do as they please because there will be no-one to stop them..

This is where we have a problem. It may be as simple as a cultural difference but I do not feel that any one should have the same or greater fire power than the police or the military.

I am not willing to keep increasing the available fire power to the people only to have a percentage of them stolen because they are not locked up. Yes, I know locking them up is an issue. It is a compound problem involving many different points of view and law. Then comes the militia VS military point of view. Sorry, don't have anything for you on that one.


what's the difference between restricted and banned?

For most people, no difference at all. For the gun collector who has a good history and the intelligence not to let his weapons fall into the wrong hands it means a lot.

But gun dealers that have shown they are not capable of running a kool-aid stand let alone sell guns. Get rid of them. I have been in pawn shops that should not even be aloud to sell slingshots.

As far as banning guns, I don't know but there must a few that serve as killing machines and should not be offered up for sale, anymore.

There has been more than a few post regarding how guns get into criminal's hands and no one is saying anything about locking up the guns. What about gun shops that are not required to lock up their inventory. Why not? By locking them up I'm talking about not being able to get at the weapons, no mater what.

I can't see it hurting sales. May raise the costs a little. That for some would be an acceptable cost VS stolen guns and so on.........

Ban all guns? Nope. I will never say that, ever!

I have said "no guns, no gun crime". And that's always good for a few posts.

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Robot
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quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
Robot...here is your post in it's entirety...

Another problem with guns is that they last a very long time. If and when guns are restricted or some models are band it will take 20, 30, 40 years to get rid of the illegal ones on the streets. And yes the crime rate will go up, for a while. The kicker is will it eventually go down. Lots of us believe it will, and make for a better place for our children.

I don't have to put words in your mouth...it is very clear that you hope/want to see guns banned....

I don't have a problem with hunting, but some guns, and ya lots of hand guns, are just over the top and not needed. That being said, the "not needed" part is just my opinion and does not apply to your individual situation. Every one is different and that is what communication is all about.

I have more respect for others than to dictate what I think should be done. However, providing recommendations is, as always, a challenging conversation when it comes to this topic.

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glassman
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this is where we have a problem. It may be as simple as a cultural difference but I do not feel that any one should have the same or greater fire power than the police or the military.

I am not willing to keep increasing the available fire power to the people only to have a percentage of them stolen because they are not locked up. Yes, I know locking them up is an issue. It is a compound problem involving many different points of view and law. Then comes the militia VS military point of view. Sorry, don't have anything for you on that one.


we do not have the same firepower as the military or the police.

i get kinda ticked when the police start complaining about not having enough firepower.


lets take the infamous LA bank robbers who wrapped themselves in kevlar and used full auto assault weapons.

they had no reasonable plan. without looking it up? they all died is my recollection.

they were loaded down with armor and could not move.

as a repoman i was denied access to quality body armor. it is actually tightly controlled. go figure that. not allowed to wear protective body armor but allowed to have a concealed weapon.

my first point is that the govt tends to be more restrictive rather than less as part of it's nature.

my second point is that gun shops GAVE officers whatever they asked for in that robbery situation.

had i been on the scene? i would requested 25-06 high power rifle or maybe 7mm magnum.(cuz i am familair with their balistics) both guns are hunting rifles, and they generate more stopping power at 200 yds than a 45 calibre handgun does at point blank. the cops could stand outside the effective range of a full auto AK and snipe. some would prolly choose a heavier bullet since the 25 and the 7 mm are light, but i personally shoot better with a lighter, faster load..

all the armour in the world won't keep you standing up if you take one of them square. those are hunting guns and if you get hit in the hand by one? it spins you around, not like in the movies where people "shrugit off" and say it's just a flesh wound. the cops had no need for full aut0 agianst them, they only needed a couple of good snipers and planty of cover. which they have in form of SWAT. swat does use full auto H&K primarily for entering a room. assault weapons are not magic. they have very specific uses and are not much good otherwise.


banning "certain" guns won't make criminals act better. this is a movie mentality thing a la rambo.

people have fantasies about steroid loaded arms holding a bouncing machine gun. anybody who's ever fired a full auto weapon is surprised at how hard they are to aim as soon as you pull the trigger.

there are a couple like the H&K and the short m-16's that are easier than most to aim.


the problem is people not machines

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:

they had no reasonable plan. without looking it up? they all died is my recollection.

they were loaded down with armor and could not move.

Actually they were very well planned robberies they did.. very military style precision... what I think they should of done was have a 3rd person... a driver if you may...

As for not moving because of their armor... that wasn't true.. .they were big guys.. muscle heads... they were just boxed in by the police... the reason for not being able to move.... go watch the videos on Youtube..


quote:
the problem is people not machines
Machines and/or guns are extensions of those people...

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