You do not have enough "well trained" gun owners to go up against the Military and all the goodies they have to offer.
You have no idea how wrong you are...
I was going to say a six shooter but lets make it a full clip up against ah..oh I don't know you pick. After all I am not up on all of the pack the soldiers carry. How long before the civilians pee their pants and run. Only half of them will show up anyway. It's gona take more thought than just hopin thall shoo up. WHO HOLDS THE MASTER PLAN?
Sorry but if the day comes........who has the plan.
Calm down I am just talking. Unless you have a plan, nothing is going to happen other than mayhem.
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"A fact is that there are more people who agree with guns than who dont. The ones who dont cry about it all the time blaming guns for everything bad. They fear guns and were probably never exposed to any so that is understandable. There is nothing in the constitution that prohibits guns, but there IS something protecting them. They dont like that, and many feel the constitution is irrelevant anymore because they dont like whats in it.
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Actually CashCowMoo i fear guns, don't want any part of them, don't care if others have them though, not that it would matter.
I just hope they understand the true reality of using them on another person.
This type of incident that was mentioned above, is just one of those things that comes out from time to time and makes headlines and discussions.
Who really knows why they do it for sure, except the person that did it. Kinda like the mothers that kill their kids and other types of unexplainable acts that hit the headlines.
There are a lot of indivuals out there that do strange things and for so many reasons.
Many of these indivuals can't explain why they do them, or they explain it, but really do not understand it.
And of course there are those others that know exactly what they did.
Big world and growing everyday, that's why i don't care to read the news much anymore, not much good stuff, mainly just hit the sports page these days.
I guess that's hiding a little, but i want to read more positive things happening in our world.
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You do not have enough "well trained" gun owners to go up against the Military and all the goodies they have to offer.
You have no idea how wrong you are...
I was going to say a six shooter but lets make it a full clip up against ah..oh I don't know you pick. After all I am not up on all of the pack the soldiers carry. How long before the civilians pee their pants and run. Only half of them will show up anyway. It's gona take more thought than just hopin thall shoo up. WHO HOLDS THE MASTER PLAN?
Sorry but if the day comes........who has the plan.
Calm down I am just talking. Unless you have a plan, nothing is going to happen other than mayhem.
Not quite following you, but if I am?
Think of the French Resistance.
or, for that matter, the relatively under-armed Iraqi insurgents.
In an end-game scenario, the threat is that we would be nuked/bio-massed--precisely because no army in history or the foreseeable future would enjoy an occupational foray.
If I understand your overall view, I agree there's a lot of macho dudes who would be ABSOLUTELY dismayed to have to actually fend off a decent SWAT attack, not to mention, let's say, a SEAL team.
As we've seen abroad, however, the problem is not in securing a coordinate.
The problem is securing all the nooks and crannies surrounding that coordinate.
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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quote:Originally posted by Robot: As long as democracy is in power I don't see how a comparison can be made with these Country’s, other than to prove the success of a democratic system. If you feel that the USA could become a “communist” country and go after it’s people for some kind of “monetary gain” then I have no comment on that. I wouldn’t even know where to start. I do not think that is in the cards for the next century. [/QB]
it's not "communism" that's "evil", it's one party rule that's evil.
a few years ago? i was concerned that the Dems seemd to be headed for the bottom, now it's the other party.
this is really bad because the "rubber band" may break on one of these party "dives" one of these times, and it could be either party
one party rule is in effect a dictatorship by proxy.
Iran? they are a democracy of one party. they are not counted as members of the free world.
the sheer number of personal firearms in the US is a tactical nightmare for any type dictator that is not an extreme populist. however, Hitler was very popular too..
there is no good answer to most of lifes hardest questions, that's why they are hard questions.
i'll take my chances with an armed populace over an disarmed populace any day.
there will always be evil people and dumb people and that's just how it is.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:Originally posted by Robot: As far as animals go. I totally agree. The problem with that is you have to fight at, or "below" their level to win. "You" need to figure out a way to get rid of the animal. [/QB]
no, NEVER lower yourself to win, you lose if you do that.
i was trained in Judo starting at 8 years old. at first it was just games but as i became a teenager i was eventually a trained killer without ever even realising it.
in Judo they maintain(ed) a very strict honor code. you will find honor codes amongst all the best military training programs. that honor code is there for a reason. had i not been absorbing the honor code along with the physical training? i would have been washed out. i know for sure that my sensei would have kicked me to the curb, and many other senseis insisted that certain people be removed from each others clubs. they police themselves very well.
people are always saying you have to lower yourself to win.
but that is not winning, that is merely survival . animals merely survive.
if you are up against an opponent that you cannot defeat with honor? then you are not fighting right. there is always an opportunity to win with honor.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: Mach...you "think" his numbers are exaggerated, but the truth is you really don't know...there are close to a million firearms deer hunters in Michigan alone...and that is just the people who hunt deer...there are at least twice that many more in this state that are armed that don't hunt...you watch too many movies dude...
I would say both of you don't know yourselves. Really your pulling numbers out of a hat. Show me a reliable independent non biased source to show these numbers that are accurate then perhaps I will believe 100 million own guns. As for movies, what does that have anything to do with me not believing that 100 Mil own guns?
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Some (but not all) states publish statistics indicating how many people acquire permits to carry concealed weapons, and their demographics. Reported permit-holders are predominantly male. For example, while over 60,000 women were licensed in Florida as of June 2007[update], 85% of permit holders were male in that state.[56] The number of permit-holders has been growing. Michigan, for example, reported more than 40,000 applications in a one year period.[57] Florida has issued over 1.2 million permits since adopting the law, and has had more than 400,000 currently-licensed permit holders as of June 2007[update].[58]
Distribution by age is generally proportionate to the overall state adult population. In Florida, 26% of permit-holders are in the 21–35 age group, 36% are 36–50, 27% are 51–65, and 11% are over age 65. The numbers of permit revocations are small. North Carolina reports only 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law.[59]
Permit holders are a remarkably law-abiding subclass of the population.[60] Florida, which has issued over 1,408,907 permits in twenty one years, has revoked only 166 for a "crime after licensure involving a firearm," and fewer than 4,500 permits for any reason.[61]
concealed carry permits are for handguns only so that does not include all gun owners. my guess is that less than 25% of people who own guns want a conceal carry permit.
most states require no permits if you do not wish to conceal carry so this represents a small portion of actual gun owners.
in essence? one in two people in the US own at least one gun and many owners have many guns.
this article is from and anti-gun group and is low IMO at saying 34% of home have at least one gun but 34% of the population would be 100 million people.
100 million people is "right number" not 34% of homes.
in MS it will be 90% of homes. in NJ it might only be 34%
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: Waiting...
Contrary to belief I am not on this forum 24/7. Sometimes I don't even post for days because you guys talk about nothing of interest to me... but I'll reply to your previous post...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
More Guns: The number of new guns rises by about 4.5 million every year.3 There are 250+ million privately-owned firearms in the United States.4
Less Violent Crime: Since 1991, the nation’s total violent crime rate is down 38 percent. (Murder is down 43 percent; rape, 29 percent; robbery, 46 percent; and aggravated assault, 35 percent.) Violent crime dropped every year from 1991-2004, to a 30-year low; increased slightly in 2005 and 2006; and decreased to nearly the 2004 level in 2007. Every year since 2002, the violent crime rate has been lower than anytime since 1974. Every year since 1999, the murder rate has been lower than anytime since 1966. States with RTC laws, compared to the rest of the country, have lower violent crime rates on average: total violent crime by 24 percent, murder, 28 percent; robbery, 50 percent; and aggravated assault, 11 percent.5
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: Mach...you state that "we don't even try"... We don't try to create the "perfect world" because it is IMPOSSIBLE...wake up man...
You also state that "gun laws are lax and rarely enforced"...
Can you tell me what the gun laws in your state are?
and...can you explain to me how they are rarely enforced?
I can tell you about the gun laws in my state and I can assure you that they are NOT lax, and that they ARE strictly enforced...
I'm going to assume you are in Michigan if i remember correctly so this article doesn't pertain to your area but it does in other areas to show as examples that those states turn a blind eye to illegal gun sales:
More Guns: The number of new guns rises by about 4.5 million every year.3 There are 250+ million privately-owned firearms in the United States.4
Less Violent Crime: Since 1991, the nation’s total violent crime rate is down 38 percent. (Murder is down 43 percent; rape, 29 percent; robbery, 46 percent; and aggravated assault, 35 percent.) Violent crime dropped every year from 1991-2004, to a 30-year low; increased slightly in 2005 and 2006; and decreased to nearly the 2004 level in 2007. Every year since 2002, the violent crime rate has been lower than anytime since 1974. Every year since 1999, the murder rate has been lower than anytime since 1966. States with RTC laws, compared to the rest of the country, have lower violent crime rates on average: total violent crime by 24 percent, murder, 28 percent; robbery, 50 percent; and aggravated assault, 11 percent.5
i have seen figures published by anti-gun groups doubling the 250 million number and i beleive they are correct.
What these figures show is no one is sure about any figures... as for the crime rates going down nationally... personally I think that is BS... if anything it has gone up since the 1960's...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: no. i am not guessing:
here's wiki:
Concealed carry in the United States Statistics
Some (but not all) states publish statistics indicating how many people acquire permits to carry concealed weapons, and their demographics. Reported permit-holders are predominantly male. For example, while over 60,000 women were licensed in Florida as of June 2007[update], 85% of permit holders were male in that state.[56] The number of permit-holders has been growing. Michigan, for example, reported more than 40,000 applications in a one year period.[57] Florida has issued over 1.2 million permits since adopting the law, and has had more than 400,000 currently-licensed permit holders as of June 2007[update].[58]
Distribution by age is generally proportionate to the overall state adult population. In Florida, 26% of permit-holders are in the 21–35 age group, 36% are 36–50, 27% are 51–65, and 11% are over age 65. The numbers of permit revocations are small. North Carolina reports only 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law.[59]
Permit holders are a remarkably law-abiding subclass of the population.[60] Florida, which has issued over 1,408,907 permits in twenty one years, has revoked only 166 for a "crime after licensure involving a firearm," and fewer than 4,500 permits for any reason.[61]
concealed carry permits are for handguns only so that does not include all gun owners. my guess is that less than 25% of people who own guns want a conceal carry permit.
most states require no permits if you do not wish to conceal carry so this represents a small portion of actual gun owners.
in essence? one in two people in the US own at least one gun and many owners have many guns.
this article is from and anti-gun group and is low IMO at saying 34% of home have at least one gun but 34% of the population would be 100 million people.
100 million people is "right number" not 34% of homes.
in MS it will be 90% of homes. in NJ it might only be 34%
that is about 1 million give or take for Florida and FL is a very populated state... if we were to say that is the average for every state then that would be 50 million but that is not realistic since some states have larger populations then others so that 50 million imo can be lower... but like I said, no one knows for sure...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
posted
If I understand your overall view, I agree there's a lot of macho dudes who would be ABSOLUTELY dismayed to have to actually fend off a decent SWAT attack, not to mention, let's say, a SEAL team.
ain't that the truth.
when i hung with seals? in peacetime? they were shooting 500 rounds per week minimum in tactical scenarios every week.
9 milli's- room entry practice.
assault rifle- feild manuevers thru urban street setting that sort of stuff.
they were mostly practicing not to shoot each other, but no one person can stand against a well trained team.
on the other hand? the fact that one of them will drop for every five actual takedowns? they cannot hope to clean up the whole country either.
SEAL training takes a year minimum to start and NEVER ever stops, so you cannot replace a member at the drop of a hat. and a brand new team member is just as much a danger tot he team as the target when things get hot.
it woulfd be a bad strategy to try to use tehm for general purpose work.
the general purpose guys? they are just as likely to say fuggit as they are to take on a good sniper.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: A fact is that there are more people who agree with guns than who dont. The ones who dont cry about it all the time blaming guns for everything bad. They fear guns and were probably never exposed to any so that is understandable. There is nothing in the constitution that prohibits guns, but there IS something protecting them. They dont like that, and many feel the constitution is irrelevant anymore because they dont like whats in it.
Again you do not know that for sure so it is not a fact.. your entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.. as for not being exposed to guns we'll I was almost shot when I was child when i was caught in a crossfire between a cop and a criminal and when i was older I had a gun pulled on me by a family friends' brother who is an alcoholic... so yes I know about guns in that regard...
As for the Constitution, it was written too long ago and much like any other document throughout history has not evolved to keep up with the times and we all know it but do not say it... I said it once and I'll say it again... I AM NOT for gun prohibition only keeping guns from the wrong hands... but since you gun owners want no restrictions that is exactly what is happening... a free for all of gun ownership that more times then none ends up in wrong hands...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
People like me have no problem with responsible gun ownership. We would like to see a more proactive stance by gun owners to help limit the needles deaths. If responsible gun owners made it harder for idiots to get guns then it would be a different ball game all together.
Exactly my thoughts... and btw Retired if you have read your history, idealists have changed the world from time to time... sometimes for worst and sometimes for the better... but point is ideals have become reality throughout history...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
posted
that is about 1 million give or take for Florida and FL is a very populated state... if we were to say that is the average for every state then that would be 50 million but that is not realistic since some states have larger populations then others so that 50 million imo can be lower... but like I said, no one knows for sure..
like i said? that's concealed carry permit holders.
i know a dozen people personally who own guns for sure that have no interest in a concealed carry permit. myself, i have no interest currently but i can get one just by asking, i carry lots of cash for my business and i have a squeaky clean record.
there are well over 100 million gun owners in the US
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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One study estimated that there are 192 million privately owned firearms in America. Guns are present in about 40 percent of households. The 1986 McClure-Volkmer Act prohibits the government from assembling a central database of gun dealers.
The $2 billion firearms industry is highly fragmented, with the three largest companies- -Remington, Smith & Wesson, and Sturm, Ruger--accounting for only about 30 percent of the market. The NRA has about 2.7 million members, down from a high of 3.5 million in 1995. Its counterpart, Handgun Control, has an annual budget of $3 million. Twenty-three suits brought by cities and counties are pending against scores of gun- makers, gun-sellers and their trade organizations.
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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posted
LOL When you start thinking statistics amazing little tidbits pop out.
If there are really 100 Mil gun owners (I am willing to accept this) then you could say 1/3rd of the population is armed. OR...
If you extrapolate the Florida data and use it as a base line for the rest of the country then 85 million of those hundred million owners are male which would mean a full 61% of the American male population is armed. WOW!
I'm not looking to restrict guns...others have already convinced me of the usefulness of an armed society. However, I do think gun owners should be proactive in working out solutions to problems that involve gun violence. The case above that started this thread may have been an isolated incident but what is happening on the streets of Chicago right now is not.
quote: A total of 510 people were murdered in Chicago during 2008. Eighty percent of these victims were killed by gunfire. Nearly half were between the ages of 10 and 25, and the vast majority were male.
posted
bigfoot, the problem is not guns. 510 people murdered in chicago....who do you think those 80% killed by gunfire mostly were? gang bangers...thugs. There are gangs all over chicago.
They can call for more and more and more restrictions on guns, but look at crack or other drugs....illegal and still plentiful just like guns would be if they were totally outlawed.
How do drugs get into the US? SMUGGLED, how would guns get into America if banned? SMUGGLED. Homemade guns would be huge just like homemade whiskey.
People dont get it. Drug cartels in Columbia will ship guns with cocaine shipments to arm the dealers to protect their product from other gangs in the streets. These people use F'n submarines now for crying out loud....submarines bought from N korea or Russia to smuggle drugs from Columbia to California coasts and people think making guns "harder to get" is going to stop violence?
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.
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posted
. but since you gun owners want no restrictions that is exactly what is happening... a free for all of gun ownership that more times then none ends up in wrong hands
that's just a lie, there's no free-for-all, there are restrictions and there are laws.
as i showed you? the people who get concealed carry permits tend to be honest adn law-abiding.
criminals eventually get whatever they want- your "greed" thing sees to that.
greed is why criminals will always have guns no matter what the laws are. not so good huh?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: bigfoot, the problem is not guns. 510 people murdered in chicago....who do you think those 80% killed by gunfire mostly were? gang bangers...thugs. There are gangs all over chicago.
They can call for more and more and more restrictions on guns, but look at crack or other drugs....illegal and still plentiful just like guns would be if they were totally outlawed.
How do drugs get into the US? SMUGGLED, how would guns get into America if banned? SMUGGLED. Homemade guns would be huge just like homemade whiskey.
People dont get it. Drug cartels in Columbia will ship guns with cocaine shipments to arm the dealers to protect their product from other gangs in the streets. These people use F'n submarines now for crying out loud....submarines bought from N korea or Russia to smuggle drugs from Columbia to California coasts and people think making guns "harder to get" is going to stop violence?
I agree...legalize drugs and the killings would drop DRAMATICALLY...Detroit is worse than Chicago, and 90% of the homicides ..here are gang/drug related...
and...99% of the guns used to commit these crimes are purchased on the black market.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: there are well over 100 million gun owners in the US
Again without an accurate way to determine how many really do own it legally then we do not know for sure.. to say 1/3 are armed LEGALLY is not realistic.. if you throw in the illegal gun owners then perhaps... but I have gone through my life not knowing one legal gun owner except for the one who pulled a gun on me... so wouldn't it suffice to say at least 1/3 of the people i have known since the day i was born would own a gun? Yet not any except one person in my life has owned a gun... why is that?
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
quote:Originally posted by raybond: BACK TO TOP GUN FACTS:
One study estimated that there are 192 million privately owned firearms in America. Guns are present in about 40 percent of households. The 1986 McClure-Volkmer Act prohibits the government from assembling a central database of gun dealers.
The $2 billion firearms industry is highly fragmented, with the three largest companies- -Remington, Smith & Wesson, and Sturm, Ruger--accounting for only about 30 percent of the market. The NRA has about 2.7 million members, down from a high of 3.5 million in 1995. Its counterpart, Handgun Control, has an annual budget of $3 million. Twenty-three suits brought by cities and counties are pending against scores of gun- makers, gun-sellers and their trade organizations.
Would be nice to see a link to the website or organization you got this from...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
quote:Originally posted by The Bigfoot: However, I do think gun owners should be proactive in working out solutions to problems that involve gun violence.
Exactly BF. +100 . When you don't try to find a solution you become part of the problem.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: bigfoot, the problem is not guns. 510 people murdered in chicago....who do you think those 80% killed by gunfire mostly were? gang bangers...thugs. There are gangs all over chicago.
Let's say that is correct and it is gang bangers... what is the solution? Arm more citizens and create more violence or perhaps have more gang intervention programs and steer kids away from gangs instead or as well? ... Like i said if you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem... if you spew Constitution amendments that it is ok to own guns then guess what these young kids will think and do... Own Guns!... we should be finding ways to steer them away from guns, drugs and gangs instead. Even if you only turn 1 kid away from that life it is one kid who won't kill or you have to maybe face someday with your own gun.
quote:They can call for more and more and more restrictions on guns, but look at crack or other drugs....illegal and still plentiful just like guns would be if they were totally outlawed.
So the solution to you is that since it's hopeless then just have no restrictions whatsoever... just have a free for all...
quote:How do drugs get into the US? SMUGGLED, how would guns get into America if banned? SMUGGLED. Homemade guns would be huge just like homemade whiskey.
People dont get it. Drug cartels in Columbia will ship guns with cocaine shipments to arm the dealers to protect their product from other gangs in the streets. These people use F'n submarines now for crying out loud....submarines bought from N korea or Russia to smuggle drugs from Columbia to California coasts and people think making guns "harder to get" is going to stop violence?
Here's a tidbit that you perhaps will find fascinating but still do not get it: The U.S. is the #1 supplier of guns to these Cartels thereby prolonging the violence and keeping them in business to supply our kids with drugs. Don't you think that at least if we shouldn't restrict gun ownership here then perhaps we should try our damn hardest to cut off the gun supply going south of the border?. Makes sense dontcha think. This wouldn't stomp on your constitutional right to own a gun Moo man. Stop Mooing.
"The federal system for tracking gun sales, crafted over the years to avoid infringements on Second Amendment rights, makes it difficult to quickly spot suspicious trends and to identify people buying for smugglers, law enforcement officials say."
That as well as banning gun sales via gun shows and sales via non storefronts (home gun sales etc.) should also be banned. Gun sales should only be through a store front much like prescription drugs should only be sold through a pharmacy so no illegalities happen or are more difficult to happen.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: Robot...no wonder you are so confused....
How in the hell can you possibly call yourself an idealist and a realist...
Idealism is a fantasy...nothing real about it
and...mayhem WILL be the reality...
Come on, everybody has a little of both in them. I'm in the Auto Industry. I know I do.
Maybe...problem is that idealists don't accomplish much nor are they very effective at solving problems.......
they just keep hoping for the perfect world...
The fact is that most violent crimes in this country are a direct result of illegal drugs...
A realist's solution would be to legalize the drugs...the results would be a serious reduction in violent crime and maybe a small increase in drug use.....
An idealist's solution would be to keep the drugs illegal and HOPE that people would just stop taking drugs and killing each other...The result is well... no change in violent crime and no change in drug use...
If you want to seriously reduce violent crime and homicides in this country, then legalize the drugs...doing nothing gets you nothing...
posted
Guns I go along with our current policy because it is the law of the land that we can keep and bare.
But something has to be done about all the crazy people and criminals that can get them so easy. they murder our children and the weak,plus they use them to get what they want because they are to lazy or stupid to shelter and feed themselves.
First of all a real background check and a waiting period of at least three weeks.
More classes on use and saftey have to be certified.
And all gun dealers tied into a national info bank and all 50 states same rules and laws. That would be a start. If any citizen that was honest and had a real purpose for gun ownership he or she would not mind the wait if they had to have it the same day why? I would say they were up to no good.
A lot of you would not agree with this but something has to start.
And on the enforcement side of things a whole new set of laws against those that use a gun in the commission of a crime
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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