posted
actually i'm doing sculptures while the weather is hot and i've built half of one today in between posts and it's only 1:30 here. i shut down the furnaces three weeks ago.
as for the video you want me to watch? is it the actual guys with the video shot onsite or was it re-enactment?
cuz i don't think i saw much video on the news. maybe a little..
fact is re-enactments are worthless.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: actually i'm doing sculptures while the weather is hot and i've built half of one today in between posts and it's only 1:30 here. i shut down the furnaces three weeks ago.
as for the video you want me to watch? is it the actual guys with the video shot onsite or was it re-enactment?
cuz i don't think i saw much video on the news. maybe a little..
posted
reading up on the case supports my claims that we already have alotof laws on the books already that should work, but don't because they are not enforced.
the guys were arrested in 93 with explosives and were barely slapped on the hand
In October 1993, Phillips and Matasareanu were arrested in Glendale, northeast of Los Angeles, California, for speeding.[6] A subsequent search of their vehicle—after Phillips surrendered with a concealed weapon—found two semi-automatic rifles, two handguns, over 1,600 rounds of 7.62 mm rifle ammunition, over 1,200 rounds of 9x19mm Parabellum and .45 ACP handgun ammunition, radio scanners, smoke bombs, improvised explosive devices, body armor vests, and three different California license plates.[7] Though they were initially charged with conspiracy to commit robbery,[8] neither of them served more than 100 days in jail, though they each were put on three years' probation.[9] After their release, most of their seized property was returned to them.[10]
they had not purchased full auto weapons they illegally modified them..
phillips had a jammed gun when his thumb was shot, mayb cuz he didn't do a good job of modifying it?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: both of those videos support my claim in words and pictures.
the chnnel 9 video is what i remember seeing :
perps walking slowly while under fire instead of making tracks for the next county.
the perps deserved to die. Darwin rules,
I just got out of shower and dressing for work so i'll make this quick.
There were 350 + cops surrounding them covering all exits pretty much. They were walking slowly because of that and not because of their armour.
As for your "deserved to die" comment. I don't remember if you are but I think you are. Anyways it's a very unchristian thing to say if you are christian. I don't know what I am in terms of religion though i leaned towards more of the non-believing side but I would never say such a thing about a life, good or bad. But if you mean survival of the fittest in a gun battle then the odds were stacked against them and i understand what you mean but if you mean a life in general then I would have to disagree.
IMO it would of been interesting if they were caught alive and there was a trial but to tell you the truth the way it ended was probably better because it was a Hollywood movie made alive ala the movie Heat.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: reading up on the case supports my claims that we already have alotof laws on the books already that should work, but don't because they are not enforced.
the guys were arrested in 93 with explosives and were barely slapped on the hand
Yah, in the case it was not enforced but you have to ask yourself how did they obtain the guns and explosives in the first place? Was it a legal purchase directly from them which i doubt or did they steal them or purchase them from a strawbuyer? That is where I think the law was not enforced more so then when they were given a slap on the wrist.
quote:they had not purchased full auto weapons they illegally modified them..
phillips had a jammed gun when his thumb was shot, mayb cuz he didn't do a good job of modifying it?
That's only one weapon out of many they had that were functioning. Who knows why not the good modification on that one. Perhaps they didn't know how to on that one or were in a rush and didnt do or were aware they didnt do the job properly.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
the description is that the spent casing jammed in the chamber (back end of the barrel).
it could be that the extractor broke due to being not made for full auto. factory full auto made guns are made with better parts and cost more too.
the extractor is just a little "hook" with spring on it that grabs the rim of the cartridge to extract it from the chamber. the spring can break, the hook can break or dirt can clog it open. dirt is also generated by firing and full auto also heats the chamber and barrel alot more than semi-
in any case, these guys should have been in jail- who knows why they weren't? we have plenty of laws restricting people like them from having guns but people find ways around them.
criminals in particular.
had these guys been hit with a deer rifle? they would have been knocked over.
7mm Rem. Mag. rifle 150 grain bullet boat tail: generates 3221 ft pounds at the muzzle, 2520 at 200 yards
a 45 caliber (colt 45) semi auto only generated 587 at teh muzzle.
a 9mm is between 300 and 500 depending on the load...
so at 200 yds the rifle is about five times as powerful as the handgun at point blank. give me the accurately scoped rifle any day
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
deserved to die? because they chose to put themselves into that situation. they also chose to use high power rifles on civilians and cops. the cops choose to go there with the crooks, thatmakes them heroes, the civvies are colateral damage they are there by accident/chance.
i don't see what Christianity has to do with it.
God Judges peoples souls, my bet is those two had none
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Personally I prefer to shoot one of my 22 cal. handguns, cheaper and much more accurate for me. My wife is dead on with the Mark2. The 9mm is very inaccurate shooting semi from the recoil. I never shot my 38 special. The most fun thing to shot is the muzzleloader. I took my third buck with that this past fall. I could shot a piece of corn of your head with that. Anyone volunteer??
Posts: 492 | From: new york | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
really......subsonic? I've never heard of those. I haven't shot the handguns in quite awhile maybe I'll brush the dust off and do it this weekend, although I'm dying to go for some brook trout. That reminds me......... years ago when I hung out with my brother we would go up to this swamp and hunt bullfrogs. What a blast, we would wade out in the water hip high and take the 22's and shot frogs. They were alot bigger then.... I don't ever see the big bullfrogs that I used too. Of coarse back then there weren't any blue heron around either, now their everywhere. You take those legs and put them on the grill with garlic, butter and lemon juice wrapped in foil.... the best. But above all getting them was a blast. I miss those days. Life was easier then.
Posts: 492 | From: new york | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by jgrecoconstr: Personally I prefer to shoot one of my 22 cal. handguns, cheaper and much more accurate for me. My wife is dead on with the Mark2. The 9mm is very inaccurate shooting semi from the recoil. I never shot my 38 special. The most fun thing to shot is the muzzleloader. I took my third buck with that this past fall. I could shot a piece of corn of your head with that. Anyone volunteer??
I have a family friend who lives just outside Georgetown, KY. He hunts all 3 deer seasons. Bow, blackpowder, and regular. He told me once that if he was ever forced to choose only one season to hunt, it would hands down be the black powder season.
I've never actually fired a black powder/muzzle loader. Had no idea they were so accurate until your post. Guess you just gave me another new project to try
-------------------- It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. Posts: 3311 | From: St. Louis | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Their just a blast to shoot and there's a challenge to it also. Stalking within range, will the rifle even go off. I've had that happen before with faulty caps. CCI are the best caps, never like remington ones. My first muzzleloader I screwed up the barrel shooting plastic cased sabots. I could be dead on one shot and the next miss an entire sheet of plywood. That gun gave me nothing but headaches. My new one about 12 years old actually is a Ruger 50cal stainless barrel with a beautiful laminated wood stock. Nothing goes in that barrel but a greased ball and powder. If you ever buy one stay away from the plastic casing balls. In my opinion that's what ruined my first one.
Posts: 492 | From: new york | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by jgrecoconstr: Their just a blast to shoot and there's a challenge to it also. Stalking within range, will the rifle even go off. I've had that happen before with faulty caps. CCI are the best caps, never like remington ones. My first muzzleloader I screwed up the barrel shooting plastic cased sabots. I could be dead on one shot and the next miss an entire sheet of plywood. That gun gave me nothing but headaches. My new one about 12 years old actually is a Ruger 50cal stainless barrel with a beautiful laminated wood stock. Nothing goes in that barrel but a greased ball and powder. If you ever buy one stay away from the plastic casing balls. In my opinion that's what ruined my first one.
Thanks for that bit of info. Will come in very handy knowing that.
-------------------- It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. Posts: 3311 | From: St. Louis | Registered: Feb 2005
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i get the best accuracy with them, but i am mostly cutting paper or very small targets. they have bounced offa birds if they catch them at an angle...
as to eh frogs? they seem to be gone here pretty much too...
the real trick is to knock them onto the bank when you hit'em...
i've had frogs attack my jitterbug... i dunno why they were doing it but it wasn't eating, maybe they wanted to mate? it looked like mating action, but i would expect them to wait for eggs first
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Odd thing, frogs love the color red. Next time your out fishing or whatever and there's a frog just hand a piece of red cloth or red plastic in front of it and he'll jump right at it.
Posts: 492 | From: new york | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Do you guys still use lead bullets when you are hunting or have you switched over to copper or one of the other alternatives?
Went drinking with one of the guys who did the smaller MN study on deer meat, the amount of lead he said they were finding so far away from the impact site was crazy.
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I never knew there was a problem with lead bullets. I knew there was with loons and lead sinkers but not bullets.
Posts: 492 | From: new york | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
The problem with lead bullets lies in the fragmentation jg. Came out a couple years ago in a small MN study and a bigger ND study that there is a lot more trace lead fragments spread throughout a much larger area of meat when an animal is hit with a lead bullet than first thought. The fragments are so small you wouldn't necessarily even recognize they were there and it has some debating about if people (kids especially) should be eating meat brought down by lead bullets or if that could lead to mental/developmental problems or minor lead poisoning.
The lead has been proven to scatter in the meat, what is debated is if it is harmful to ingest these trace amounts in this manner or not.
There is a secondary debate being caused by this (at least locally) because most of the butchers around here will give you pound for pound meat for deer but don't make any attempt to be sure the meat you bring home is from the deer you shot. The hunters who are wary of lead bullets want the butchers to guarantee they will only be given meat from the same deer that was brought in to be certain they aren't bringing home "tainted" meat.
It looks like there are some alternatives out there, Glass. I wouldn't know the quality but I read something that said "93% of experts agree that non-lead bullets are as good as lead bullets" while I was looking it up.
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by jgrecoconstr: Personally I prefer to shoot one of my 22 cal. handguns, cheaper and much more accurate for me. My wife is dead on with the Mark2. The 9mm is very inaccurate shooting semi from the recoil. I never shot my 38 special. The most fun thing to shot is the muzzleloader. I took my third buck with that this past fall. I could shot a piece of corn of your head with that. Anyone volunteer??
We have both a regular firearms season and a muzzleloader season up here...you can only use a center fire caliber in the upper half of the State, the lower half is shotgun/muzzle loader only...
A smokepole is the ONLY firearm I use to hunt deer in Michigan...extremely accurate and twice the range of a 12ga...
I shoot an Austin-Halleck 50 cal. with a Leupold 3.5 x 10 vari-X III scope. I use 150 grains of triple seven powder and 300 grain SST ballistic tipped sabot slugs...deadly combination.
I shot 5 deer last year 4 of which were 175 to 200 yard shots....the 5th was with my bow at 30 yds.
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It's all in the timing... Posts: 4303 | From: DSA | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I have been butchering the deer I shoot (a minimum of 5 per year) for the last 7 years...I completely debone all of my meat and I also do all of my own grinding...
If you shoot a deer where you should be (through both lungs) you will not normally find any type of bullet fragments at all. That is because 9 times out of 10 your bullet will pass through the animal. And even if the bullet doesn't pass through, you will usually find the mushroomed slug buried in the hide on the exit side. Also there is no edible meat in that area of the animal anyway.
When I do find bullet fragments, they are usually very easy to see (dark red meat). I always trim that off along with any dark red areas around entry/exit wounds and discard it anyway...
All in all, I have butchered well over 60 deer and have found very few lead fragments in my meat...and...I have never found any type of fragmentation that I didn't detect during the butchering process (biting into a chunk of lead)...
I would NEVER take my deer to a commercial processor...there is nothing worse than poorly trimmed venison...
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It's all in the timing... Posts: 4303 | From: DSA | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by jgrecoconstr: Their just a blast to shoot and there's a challenge to it also. Stalking within range, will the rifle even go off. I've had that happen before with faulty caps. CCI are the best caps, never like remington ones. My first muzzleloader I screwed up the barrel shooting plastic cased sabots. I could be dead on one shot and the next miss an entire sheet of plywood. That gun gave me nothing but headaches. My new one about 12 years old actually is a Ruger 50cal stainless barrel with a beautiful laminated wood stock. Nothing goes in that barrel but a greased ball and powder. If you ever buy one stay away from the plastic casing balls. In my opinion that's what ruined my first one.
jgrecoconstr...I replaced my breech plug and nipple with a new conversion kit that uses shotgun primers instead of caps...much more reliable and instant ignition. Primers eliminate that annoying "ignition pause" you get using caps. If you can get one of these conversion kits for your gun...I highly recommend it!
Plastic sabots were probably not the problem with your gun...I have been shooting them for years, and I wouldn't use anything else...
You really have to spend quite a bit of time with a muzzle loader at the range, to find the right load...if you use too light of a bullet and/or too much powder your slug will actually start tumbling and your accuracy is lost...I find heavier bullets to be more accurate, and as long as you use enough powder, it will provide much better knock down power and still shoot flat...
First and foremost though for accuracy....you must keep your barrel CLEAN...smokepoles get real dirty real fast...
There is a relatively new muzzlelaoder out now made by Ultimate Firearms...this thing will produce velocities close to 2400 fps with a 300 grain bullet and shoot accurately out to 500 yards! It uses a .45 caliber brass casing with a magnum rifle primer for ignition and can handle up to 200 grains of Pyrodex powder...
posted
Ret....Back when I had those troubles with that gun I tried everything, it was always clean so that wasn't the problem. A gunsmith I knew told me to use pistol powder which is finer grained, that wasn't it either, someone else told me to go to straight black powder and not pyrodex, that didn't work, varied the loads too. it wasn't my ability to shot consistently because I can do that. The gun was deadly for a few years then it just went crazy. Honestly, 25 yards and miss a sheet of plywood. I used to just shot a paper targets and when I wasn't hitting them consistently I got pissed and set up a sheet of plywood to see where the hell the slug was going. What do you think my reaction was when I totally missed a 4 x 8 area. I couldn't trust hunting with it. There is no worse feeling hunting than losing an animal. As far as the primers go, I know I'm not traditional blackpowder but I'm trying to keep it somewhat close. I'll never put a scope on it unless I get really shakey in the years to come. One of the reasons they set up the blackpowder seasons in new York was to have somewhat of a traditional season. Then they kept tweaking it and now most people hunting muzzle loader season are just as well fitted as regular season with a 30.06 which I don't agree with. I'm suprised you get so many deer per season in Michigan. I thought they nearly killed the whole herd off a few years ago due to CWD.
Posts: 492 | From: new york | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Your precautions are good retiredat, but the fragments that I am talking about could only be found by X-ray.
quote: Concerned by these findings, the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources then studied the fragmentation of bullets in deer and sheep carcasses shot with different types of lead bullets.
The results were terrifying. On average, each carcass contained between 60 and 141 lead fragments; one had nearly 500. Most lead pieces were so small that people could not detect them without X-rays or chemical analysis. Fragments also were often far from bullet exit holes -- in some cases, up to 14 inches away. Lead levels unsafe for children were detected up to 18 inches away from exit holes.
This is a very good source page for the information I am pseaking of but it is a positional statement. Just an FYI.
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by The Bigfoot: Where are all these guns (no matter the type) coming from that end up in the hands of all these criminals for whom it is illegal to purchase a gun? If our laws are being circumvented to allow illegal transport and distribution of firearms on such a large scale without any ability to backtrack the weapons previous history so that we can hold the illegal traffickers responsible then it stands to reason that our laws need a review and rewrite.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: if we don't have the ability to track them then how can Mexico blame us for their problem?...
I know it is related, the world is getting smaller, and we should care about what is happening in our neighbor countries...but I have a little trouble truly comprehending the situation beyond our Southern border and because of that it just doesn't raise my ire much other than I know I don't want that chaos here in the states.
I can't understand why shrines are popping up across Mexico to different gods of death and crime for warlords to donate to when a job goes well or where a drug farmer will hire a band to play to give thanks for a good harvest.
I don't understand why the police have such a hard time tracking down these kidnappers and drug czars when they seem to be very public about their actions.
I don't know why the populace seems to accept the deaths and kidnappings as acceptable and why we don't see Mexicans rioting in the streets of Mexico City demanding protection.
The best I can do personally when thinking about Mexico right now is to compare it to the mobster days of Al Capone and such. But that doesn't seem to fit very well either.
All that to say that I don't know what to think about Mexico and I don't know that it is our problem unless our gun manufacturers and retailers are illegally selling weapons down south and promoting the destabilization of our sister to the south. I would have a BIG problem if it was discovered that willful enterprise corruption within the arms sector like that was going on.
I should also state though that I agree with Mach in that one picture of a gun that you say isn't American made (I accept that you are probably right, I wouldn't know) doesn't invalidate the claims that the overwhelming majority of weapons being confiscated are American made.
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
my bet is that the Mexican govt has suplied alot of those guns, purchased legally by them.
the reason the Mexicans accept the situation is cuz that's how it's always been there.
the Federales have always been amenable to cash contributions to get you out of almost anything short of murdering one of their own. this i know from personal experience and i always carried cash just to stay out of jail, even when i wasn't up to anything that would land me there. do they have a fith ammendment down there?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote: the fact is that guns are bougth legally by citizens who then turn around and sell them, or have them stolen.
OK, see...this is where I have a problem. The evidence chain is broken without recourse the way things stand now. I can understand that if weapon is stolen, but I don't understand why we are allowing the evidence chain to be broken when a second sale on a weapon takes place. Especially considering the limits we put on original sales. We are purposefully not allowing our protection agencies to collect the information that they need to curtail the black market in guns by holding the suppliers accountable for their illegal transactions. I understand the concerns and they are valid but there has to be some sort of middle ground.
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
here's why the average people don't complain
Kidnap Consultant Taken in Mexico Gunmen Abducted American Last Week
MEXICO CITY, Dec. 15 -- An American anti-kidnapping negotiator, whose company says he has resolved almost 100 kidnapping cases in Latin America, was abducted by gunmen last week -- while meeting with Mexican business executives and their bodyguards to discuss ways to thwart such crimes.
The abduction of Felix Batista was bold and chilling, and the report of his disappearance, which hit the news media here Monday morning, had Mexicans wondering whether anyone was safe.
"This kidnapping is as serious as any other kidnapping in Mexico, where, according to official statistics, two people are kidnapped every day," said María Elena Morera, president of Mexicans United Against Crime. Independent watchdog groups in Mexico estimate that there are as many as 500 kidnappings a month in the country, most never reported because families choose to privately negotiate ransoms without help from police officers, who are often involved in kidnapping crews.
posted
Mexico has had a problem with organised crime for decades: Lawless Roads - truck hijackings common in Mexico Latin Trade , March, 2000 by John Suval
Mexican truckers fight roadside bandits at every turn.
AFTER LOSING TWO COSTLY TRUCKLOADS OF CALIFORNIA ALMONDS AND one of Norwegian cod to marauders, Adolfo Juarez knew it was time to fight back. So, the businessman from Mexico City began hiring security guards to escort his goods from the Veracruz coast and the Texas border to their final destination in the stores and markets of the capital.
On Mexico's roads, robberies of merchandise have grown almost as common as gaping potholes. Organized bands of thieves steal hundreds of millions of dollars worth of goods each year, spawning a hostile climate for entrepreneurs, truckers and insurers alike.
The National Cargo Transport Chamber (Canacar), an organization comprising some 180,000 truck owners, says an average of 800 trucks are reported hijacked every year at a loss of US$253 million. That's bad news for a country where 90% of all goods are transported by truck.
The vast majority of robberies, however, go unreported, officials say. In a few rural areas like Fib de Caballo, Guerrero, local militias are even administering their own justice: They hang hijackers.
Jun 1, 2000 ... Since the mid-1990s, an epidemic of truck hijackings has swept Mexico. Medicines, clothing, food, appliances, and consumer electronics are
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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show me how many guns are invlved in th eillegal trade. i find that 80,000 guns were confisccted by cops in '05 BUT they were not all sold illegally.. just being used/carried illegally
I can find confiscated numbers, reported stolen numbers, ... a couple of surveys that list how many students in such and such area own a gun and how many believe they could get one, but I have yet to find an estimate on the size of the black market (surprise surprise...it IS the black market after all) in the United States that is anything beyond pure speculation. I'll keep looking but I'm not gonna spend my whole night on this one thing.
In the meantime, If you are interested in reading about straw buying this is a good (though long and somewhat repetitive) paper written for Mayors Against Illegal Guns.
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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