That is not completely true. You can argue legal points but those can only be settled in court, if push comes to shove. A broker can seize your account, take your money and sell your stocks to recover liability. That is in your contract fine print.
You can prevail on liability but you might spend twenty-thousand in attorney fees to do so. Brokers have deep pockets and can throw a lot of money at you, in legal fees.
Meanwhile, your money is tied up for years.
This is why it is often a better choice to settle even when you are right.
Being right does not mean you won't lose money.
"Having said all of this, there is no way to reverse 11 billion shares traded."
There is a very simple way to reverse this. The company, GVRP, simply throws up their hands and states, "We cannot cover."
quote:Originally posted by Purl Gurl: There is a very simple way to reverse this. The company, GVRP, simply throws up their hands and states, "We cannot cover."
Next event is the Fat Lady singing.
Purl Gurl
GVRP won't do that, they have a case against the TA, TA is backed by insurance and is bonded, notice the TA wasn't speaking today......it wasn't cuz some crappy little pink told them not to. It was cuz they screwed up and just hiked their premiums....
Posts: 9110 | From: boston, ma | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
We carry rather expensive Landlord's Liability insurance on each rental. We pay big bucks each year for that insurance.
Classic case, and fortunately this did not come to past in court.
A female tenant, a wife, is very obese. We have replaced two toilets in three years. First time she shattered the porcelain bowl by wiggling her huge butt around. She could have been cut severely, claimed neglect on our part, then sued us.
Second time, she tore the toilet up out of the foundation, actually broke off the bolts. No harm except filthy water everywhere. She could have claimed exposure to bio-hazardous material due to neglect, then sued us.
We carry liability insurance for that reason. You can be sued at anytime for anything, be perfectly innocent, be perfectly right, but will spend tens of thousands defending yourself.
You win but you are the true loser.
"Hey fat ass. How much you want to settle before we go to court? Ok, five grand and here is an eviction notice. Now beat it, Tubbo."
We have liability insurance which protects us up to a certain amount, one-million for each rental, in this case.
Do you have liability insurance if your broker seizes your account?
What will it cost you to get your money back? More than the money you have in your account?
As soon as I mentioned GVRP the person immediately knew what I was talking about...must have lots of people bugging them about it. I asked her the 2 usual questions.
-Why the post F/S shares had not yet posted on my account...She answered that they had not received them from the DTC as of today and I should expect them to show in the next few days. I than mentioned that Ameritrade had already posted them for their customers and she replied that etrade is on a different system than Ameritrade and repeated that it might take a few days.
-Why have they halted trading for GVRP...Her reply was that this stock did a massive R/S and then a F/S and they viewed this as irregular and decided to halt trading until things can be cleared up. I asked her how long this might take and again she replied she wasn’t sure but things should be cleared up in a few days.
Posts: 176 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
LOL etrade sux
Posts: 9110 | From: boston, ma | Registered: Jan 2004
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<Trader88>
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Triumph1902: Just got off the phone with etrade:
As soon as I mentioned GVRP the person immediately knew what I was talking about...must have lots of people bugging them about it. I asked her the 2 usual questions.
-Why the post F/S shares had not yet posted on my account...She answered that they had not received them from the DTC as of today and I should expect them to show in the next few days. I than mentioned that Ameritrade had already posted them for their customers and she replied that etrade is on a different system than Ameritrade and repeated that it might take a few days.
-Why have they halted trading for GVRP...Her reply was that this stock did a massive R/S and then a F/S and they viewed this as irregular and decided to halt trading until things can be cleared up. I asked her how long this might take and again she replied she wasn’t sure but things should be cleared up in a few days.
What do you mean halt trading, there was no trading halt.
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quote:Originally posted by keithsan: LOL etrade sux
Yeah no kidding! I usually use ameritrade but it just so happened that for this buy I had cleared funds on my old Etrade account. I imagine they will lose allot of customers over this.
Posts: 176 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Keith, you are very sharp, well educated and impressively articulate. I admire your clear intellectual status.
"GVRP won't do that, they have a case against the TA"
You cannot guarantee that. You can surmise that would be a logical course of action. Nonetheless, all bets are off because you do not control GVRP, you cannot make decisions for them.
For all we know the two top executives, one will dress like Batmen, the other like Robin, and both will take a flying leap off the Empire State Building.
We can rationalize. We cannot precisely predict behavior of others.
That is what legal arguments and cross exams are all about; catching the other offguard with inherent unpredictable behavior.
quote:Originally posted by Purl Gurl: Keith, you are very sharp, well educated and impressively articulate. I admire your clear intellectual status.
"GVRP won't do that, they have a case against the TA"
You cannot guarantee that. You can surmise that would be a logical course of action. Nonetheless, all bets are off because you do not control GVRP, you cannot make decisions for them.
For all we know the two top executives, one will dress like Batmen, the other like Robin, and both will take a flying leap off the Empire State Building.
We can rationalize. We cannot precisely predict behavior of others.
That is what legal arguments and cross exams are all about; catching the other offguard with inherent unpredictable behavior.
Purl Gurl
ok purl, thats what I predict is going on...
Doing ok in my predictions so far Posts: 9110 | From: boston, ma | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I still wonder with everything being so wrong with the short issue why would they ever release shares out to the DTC to send to the broker (Scottrade, etrade, ect). I just can't see how they would ever release more shares. Seems like they would just try to clean up the mess that's out there as much as possible without releasing more. I don't think us Scottrades will ever see any split shares.
Posts: 507 | From: Rochester, NY | Registered: May 2005
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posted
[/qb][/QUOTE]What do you mean halt trading, there was no trading halt. [/QB][/QUOTE]
For all practical purposes Etrade has halted trading since Friday for this stock. They require you to call your trades in and even than, as Purl mentioned, you need a margin account with a $100,000 balance.
Posts: 176 | Registered: Nov 2004
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You are absolutely right concerning the possibility of litigation. As I lawyer I do not fear the litigation although I do in fact respect the time, effort and expense. I am also sure that Ameritrade also respects the expense and while all were wondering what happens today they also were wondering and I am sure were covering their own butts.
Our trade agreement with the broker like most every contract drafted by someone else does in fact protect the person who drafted the contract, in this case the broker. But, while it may allow them to tie up assets in the account ultimately they do not decide right and wrong. If I cash out 90,000 tommorrow I am sure a hundred others will too. I know quite a few law firms that would chomp at the bit for that class action.
So, if they tie me up over the 90,000 I will not fear the fight because I am reasonably sure of the argument. Ameritrade will not let me short this stock. I can only sell what is in my account. I sold what is in my account. I can potentially be made to replace the sale proceeds. But I cannot be made to cover with stock a short sale I cannot and did not make. Ameritrade told me they have my shares. I can sell them. If a sale is reversed (something that I doubt will happen) tey take back the sale proceeds. I the stock is truly short and undeliverable, and if the ask for a cover of a short sale, there is in fact no GVRP stock in existence from which to cover so therefore I will have to return the proceeds.
Again, I am confortable with the position that the limit of my liability is the sale proceeds. If they want more that will have to come and get it and not without a fight.
Of course all of this may be moot since they may never reach up and grab my shares at the inflated prices, and as you have wisely stated all of this is moot T+3.
What do you mean halt trading, there was no trading halt. [/QB][/QUOTE]
For all practical purposes Etrade has halted trading since Friday for this stock. They require you to call your trades in and even than, as Purl mentioned, you need a margin account with a $100,000 balance. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Sorry, I misunderstood. Thats not a trading halt, thats ETrade telling you that you can't sell what you own. I'm glad I don't have them, thats all I can say.
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"I don't think us Scottrades will ever see any split shares."
If you do not receive those shares by market open on Thursday, you can call Scott's and ask they submit a demand to the selling broker. That does not mean you will receive shares, but will begin the process of obtaining those shares.
Research and read about "Demand To Settle" as this relates to stock trading.
As a way of further clarification on Ameritrade's CYA:
Obviously other brokers have not allowed free trade of GVRP today. While I have never compared their brokerage agreements I assume they are virtually identical in terms to Ameritrade. Yet Ameritrade posted the shares and freely allows their trade. I find it hard to believe they did not consider the ramifications of their actions, determine they were OK and allowed the trading. If not, the easy way out was to merely tie up trading like the other brokerages.
Posts: 81 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Elite, I have a spell checker over at the elite IH boards. I am pleased he makes himself available to me on a daily basis. He catches my spelling errors for me, publically informs me, and all learn better spelling.
Today's word: tortuous.
I misspelled it torturous. However, this is the first time in my life I have used that word. Now I know how to spell that word correctly, thanks to my spell checker who sits over at the IH board just waiting for one of my posts. He is a dependable spell checker and works for free.
Elite, simply annoy someone here and you are bound to have a spell checker who will check each and every word of yours, with baited breath.
Those people have nothing better to do; you will being do him a favor, giving him a purpose in life.
quote:Originally posted by Purl Gurl: Keith presents a defense,
"Doing ok in my predictions so far"
Keith, don't be sensitive! There is no room for a sensitive ego during legal arguments.
Yes, you do very well, and that is sincere. My prior compliments are just as sincere.
I have found, during my measly life, when you get to bragging, life craps in your hand.
Purl Gurl
LOL not bragging enjoying the moment, i don't really even care about this current argument, i posted my thought and that was it.
I think if the company goes bankrupt they lose more than going after the TA my research over the last week leads me to believe they have a case against the TA. i could be wrong just my thought.
Sorry my poor attempt at humor brought out your ire. I have nothing to brag about, some people made money and thanked me, i like that, makes me happy. As for me, haven't made a dime yet.
I've spent a lot of time reading about this case and i'm still holding my almost 2 bill, again, that is what i think the right choice is, me, I. Time will tell soon enough.
Posts: 9110 | From: boston, ma | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I understand men being obnoxious, Keith. That is one of the sad side effects of age old classic Terminal Testosterone Poisoning.
Posts: 7504 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Purl Gurl: I understand men being obnoxious, Keith. That is one of the sad side effects of age old classic Terminal Testosterone Poisoning.
I like that TTP
Posts: 9110 | From: boston, ma | Registered: Jan 2004
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My spelling is actually much better than my typing. But I guess I know I am read if I get my own spellchecker too. Congratulations on yours.
Also, I very much agree with your points regarding paying small sums to avoid litigation. My company pays small claims all the time rather than bother the insurance company. Thus each week we cut a few $20-100 checks for broken mirrors and the such from our blasting operations. But, we fight every bogus claim seeking real money.
The cost of litigation is in fact a major consideration in paying claims and in pricing settlements. Many nuisance claims are settled just for those reasons and the value of a nuisance claim is higher today than at any time because of the cost of litigation.
In this situation, the potential riches far exceed the costs of litigation and thus my reasoning and lack of any major concern in my position.
But, I actually really doubt that the MM's will reach up and take my shares tommorrow but if they do I will gladly take my funds and use part for my WSOP vacation.
posted
My prediction, .0003 on Friday market close.
Elite, I plan to start selling on Thursday morning. If the split shares are not there, Etrade will raise my ire.
Rationalizing as you and Keith do so well, I figure if Etrade dumps shares into my account after the final settlement date, those are covered shares.
* crosses her fingers *
At some point, all of us have to step up and take the risk. If you are not selling, you are not making money.
Posts: 7504 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
i called scottrade national center. They said that the shares would show up in my account once the transfer agent delivers it but my question is the transfer agent ever going to deliver it? they said it takes 2 days to deliver
Posts: 210 | From: tampa, fl, us | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I spoke to Etarde about the date (the 25th).. the answer: "..All I can say is 2-3 days sir.." by the way GTE will be listed in AM on Etrade if anyone didnt already know.
Posts: 43 | From: MA | Registered: Mar 2005
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