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Author Topic: Is the US French plan for Lebanon workable?
glassman
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Exactly right Glass. Some on this thread make the mistake of assuming one way of thought, one belief system or another, makes one somehow better than others. Because as Paul put it: "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" and because I know this all too well, the anthropology I operate out of is this: we're all in the same boat, no one is better or worse than anyone else.

Since I have no intolerance of other people folks, you wasted alot of time and space on this oh so beautiful day. There is not an ounce of bigotry in me. Nuff said on a dead topi


not an ounce?
you must be JESUS!

i must genuflect..

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Leo
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"Since I have no intolerance of other people folks, you wasted alot of time and space on this oh so beautiful day. There is not an ounce of bigotry in me. Nuff said on a dead topic."

Good Lord,...

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glassman
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griffon?
the Palestinians have done little for themselves infrastructurally that i can see...

Arafat got a lot of cash... and kept it...
the arab nations use Palestine as a poster child for Zionist oppression..

your idea of moving a major portion of UN there is not bad, but you'll find it much harder to accomplish than just wishing...


the Israelis have made the desert produce...

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Griffon
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One factor that people do not realize about war: it's never about religion. It's about land, property, power and glory. But as some of you have pointed out, leaders know that the average person will not war often over those things. On the other hand, if couched in mytho-poetic terms of nationalism and nation-state as religion or in religious terms, people will follow.

Remember in WWI the French charged into massacre after massacre because generals said, "If you have enough elan, bullets can't harm you." Is that a religious statement or a nationalistic statement? And consider the other side of expressing mytho-poetic fervor. In WWI British propogandists superimposed the image of a child over the image of a chicken that German soldiers were roasting over a fire, the implication being that German soldiers ate children.

In like fashion, Israel and Palestine have learned the fine art of mytho-poetic inspiration. So we hear the witness of one side that Jerusalem is the most important site in Judaism and the third most important site in all of Islam. All for a God who says to people who were carried into captivity, "Bloom where planted."

And yet Jerusalem has a certain attraction whoever holds the keys because for 3000 years and more it has mesmerized secular and religious, pious and impious. What a great city of the world! It would make a great seat for a new UN.

--------------------
God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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glassman
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yep. especially if you are hoping Jesus is back...

not an ounce huh?
you planning on settin' up shop over there griff?

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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T e x
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"It would make a great seat for a new UN."

I LIKE that!

lol, Griff...sure you're not a closet Toltec?

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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glassman
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One factor that people do not realize about war: it's never about religion

here we go again....

faith.. war is never about FAITH... religion? lots of wars about religion because religion is politics...

all war needs willing participants..

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Griffon
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The carrots of religion and nationalism are the articulated reasons for war: Power, money and glory are the real reasons Glass. Religion is not always political, though it often is. My argument is simply against the absolute. Not EVERY religious action is political and vice versa. I am suggesting people use religion for personal, political and nationalistic ends.

"all war needs willing participants.."

absolutely true, nationalism and religion become the way leaders articulate it to dress power, glory and wealth up in terms that offer a vision people get behind. Nationalistic fervor has become in the last 5-6 centuries a far more effective tool for manipulating the masses of the industrialized world. Just look at the Mexican-American and Spanish-American War. Or consider WWI and II. Patriotism almost takes on religious overtones especially in the Cold War.

It's not exactly new, nor is that absent from this war we are in. But to say religion is the root cause of war, and I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, misses the corruption of power, wealth and glory at the root. But that is only my understanding, flawed as I am, I only see dimly as in a mirror (though that Greek actually says "as in a riddle" which is an interesting image don't you think?"

--------------------
God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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bdgee
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"There is not an ounce of bigotry in me."

Thank god I had a Franklin devise installed on the house before I read that!

I don't think god even likes a copy of a lie.

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Griffon
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Tex asked: "sure you're not a closet Toltec?"

LOL yeah Tex you uncovered me. What was the tip-off? Unfortunately, I don't have the hair left to go with their head-dresses. I love studying indigenous cultures, I love meeting the people.

--------------------
God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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T e x
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quote:
Originally posted by Griffon:
Tex asked: "sure you're not a closet Toltec?"

LOL yeah Tex you uncovered me. What was the tip-off? Unfortunately, I don't have the hair left to go with their head-dresses. I love studying indigenous cultures, I love meeting the people.

nevermind...

"head-dresses"

[Roll Eyes]

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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Griffon
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Have you ever sat in the home of an Arab Israeli person from Ibillin, Lower Galilee, Israel?

If not, you would find the meeting a great cross-cultural exchange. As you walk along the street, a person will invite you in for "cafe" which is Turkish grind spiced with cardamom. They smile warmly over the tiny thimble sized cup and in Arabic they offer their fruit or flatbread and tabouleh which is a delicious, fresh tasting salad of parsley, mint, bulgur, etc. The fruit will be citrus usually, and they will be surprised if you refuse a cigarette.

In Arabic culture, a guest is highly honored. If pastry is available, honey cakes usually, they will get that out. The Arab people are a thoroughly engaging culture. Our communication is not always linguistically perfect, after all we do not share the same primary language, but we manage.

In one instance, as I was sanding windows at the church on the school campus, one of my hosts stood on the cement below scolding me severely and I could not understand her at all. She grabbed one of the students, all of which learn English from 3rd grade on, told her something pointed at me and the girl said, "Get a hat! You're pink! and pink turns red!"

Arabs are humans too.

--------------------
God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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Griffon
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Now in Tel Aviv, we sat at a coffee shop/internet bar, Mennachem and I. The coffee was more American-ized, meaning anemic. But we talked of hope for the future, as he prepared for college. His folks are friends from academic discussions about digs at Masada. He too will study archeology, but he is among the Jewish students who will study in Jordan.

We sat there, on February 27th, 2005, the week the knesset voted to release their 400 prisoners of war/hostages/political prisoners/terrorists, opinions vary. But what the world does not see in that decision is the annexation of more of the West Bank including 60% of the water access into the West Bank. Mennachem is crushed, his Arabic friends are outraged that they will have reduced access to water and he says, "Something terrible will happen." Almost as if to be an horrific exclamation point, the first of two terror bombings in response to the water shut off blew up about a block from where we sat less than half an hour later. Anybody ever get thirsty?

--------------------
God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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Griffon
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What do these two youths have in common? One Arab Muslim, one Israeli Jew? Their worlds seem so far removed to see how they live. Both were tenagers. Both spoke at least three language. Both were connected to the growing peace movement that believes a two-state is the only path of survival. Both have died in the fighting of the last 1 & 1/2 years. Mennachem died in the explosion at the wedding party in Amman. The other, whose name I cannot mention because suicide is not acceptable in that culture, killed herself just after graduation because she would not be accepted to study at Hebrew University. The Arab quota was full.

Until we begin to see the full humanity of all persons, the sacred worth they embody, plows will get forged into guns and children will be forced to grow up too early.

--------------------
God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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bdgee
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"Have you ever sat in the home of an Arab Israeli person from Ibillin, Lower Galilee, Israel?"

Well, I don't know if the town was Ibillin, but yeah, with that possible difference, I have.

So what?

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Griffon
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Good bdgee.

--------------------
God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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Griffon
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Another Arab '48 student, Manal is an absolute genius in her school, graduated in May with plans to be a doctor. Her friend Rawan graduated as well in May with dreams of becoming a veterinary. Gifted, bright young girls, who will have to leave Israel to go to school.

Arab '48 is the younger generation's statement of ethnic identity, remembering where they came from, and acknowledging that Israel is their homeland. Their one request of their nation: equal rights. Sound familiar to our nation 40 and more years ago?

Arab Israeli students have the highest level of education of any Arab population in the Middle East. Why? Because of cooperating American Synagogues, Mosques and Churches working together with other charitable institutions to provide opportunity. Do you know what Amar, the Palestinian gardener, who is Muslim, said of America? He loves the Americans because their compassion helps his people and the school. He expressed dislike for: Arafat, Bush and Sharon. His definition of a good leader is one who shares in the sufferings of his people. In Amar's worldview women should not hold office, and with six children his wife has more than her hands full in Jenin.

Would it not be good if equality were not just an aspiration, but a confident reality because both peoples' were secure in their identities?

--------------------
God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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glassman
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why is the education there the best? because it's Israel ... that's their heritage no matter who suports them...
you are long winded...

go back and tell me why the Islamic scholars decided to add Jerusalem as the third most holy place...
500 words and i want to know why they needed to do it... not just some platitiude about Jerusalem being "speyeshuul"

tell me how a religion that places Jesus below the Prophet Mohamed can be accepted by a Methodist minister... it makes no sense... you are selling something to buy subservience...

quit braggin about the nice folks you met in your travels...

i've traveled too... met a lot of really nice strippers when i when i was in the military... some of them were working on degrees too......

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Sunnyside
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Grif you make me laugh with your one-sided agenda.

You speak as if the Arabs in Israel had it so good prior to the Jews immigrating. Those arabs lived in poverty in slums. Their rich Arab brethren could not care less about them then. The Jews rebuilt the old city where the arabs still live and have businesses. The Jews built Israel into a productive country and many, many arabs benefitted from that. Much more so than they did when their arab cousins over the borders couldn't care less about their living conditions or the direction of their lives or their education or medical care.

I've been there too. And not long after the '67 war. I saw their living conditions then and I've seen them change to the better because of the Jews. I've done business in the old city with the arabs, as do many Jews. I've had tea and nana with them. Chatted with Jewish and Arab Israelis alike. Big deal. You don't impress me in the least. And I don't buy your propagandist, bigotted sob stories.

As far as Jerusalem being an open city, well its only been an open city since the Jews won it in a war not of their own making. While in the hands of the arabs, that city was on lock down. Now its open to the world.

I still state that their arab cousins had not lifted a finger or spent one shekel on them in all their caring and concern. And closed their borders to those that wanted to return to their countries. You do realize that ALL the arabs in Israel are not originally from Israel? Not so-called Palestinians.

And, every time you say call it Palestine instead of Israel, you are showing your bigotry.

I was an idealistic bleeding heart. I was educated in bleeding heart, credentialled in bleeding heart, and am a bleeding heart by profession. However, because of the reality of human nature and what I've learned in my travels and work, I am proud to say that I am a recovering bleeding heart. I'd rather deal in reality, even if it isn't pretty. Sometimes the truth just ain't pretty. But, without reality you can't even begin to help people. Dreams and hypothetical situations are just that... dreams and fantasies.

I don't see you as anything more than a blow hard trying to prove a point with endless sermons and propagandist tales.

Why are you really trying to exploit the freedom of this forum?

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bdgee
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Sunnyside,

He's not trying to prove anything except how big an ass he can be and to make excuses for the failed policies of the Administration.

In all matters where differing parties have opposing "solutions" or goals, physical confrontaation is the result of failed diplomacy. One guaranteed way to fail in diplomacy is to refuse to participate.

You cannot, in honesty, refuse to play the game then make up for your refusal to participate by spinning voluminous false tales of success. I woulda..., coulda..., shoulda... just doesn't cut the mustard.

In order to win a baseball game you have to have the guts to take your time at bat (unless, of course, you are an American League pitcher).

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Griffon
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"You speak as if the Arabs in Israel had it so good prior to the Jews immigrating. Those arabs lived in poverty in slums."

Exactly right Sunnyside. I never talked about their living conditions, did I? And the children I work with would never have Israel become an Arab state. But the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza have a different perspective don't they?

"Chatted with Jewish and Arab Israelis alike. Big deal. You don't impress me in the least. And I don't buy your propagandist, bigotted sob stories."

Lived with Arabs and Jewish Israelis alike. How about you? As to their nationality and religion, it's funny how as I lectured in classes with Jew, Muslim, Druze and Christian, we did not quibble about who was what religion. As we sat around tables we did not care that two were Arab 48, two were Jewish Israeli, one was Palestinian and one was American. We could see humanity in each other. The mix of Jewish and Arabic names should have helped you see that. Mennachem is not Arabic, nor are his parents names, Mosha and Golda.

"As far as Jerusalem being an open city, well its only been an open city since the Jews won it in a war not of their own making. While in the hands of the arabs, that city was on lock down. Now its open to the world."

Wrong type of open city Sunny. I am talking about a totally neutral city, devoid of nationality, not open to everyone. Course that too is a myth. Try being an Arab 75 year old man going to the Al Aqsa Mosque for Friday prayers when the wrong soldier is guarding at Temple Mount.

"And, every time you say call it Palestine instead of Israel, you are showing your bigotry."

Nope, I have no bigotry. Nuff said but to elaborate: I call the region Israel/Palestine, never Palestine. I call the area settled in 1948 treaty as Israel: Israel. I call the Occupied Territories Palestinian Authority as per UN convention following Oslo.

If I refer to Palestinians, I am refering to those whose home is in the PA as set out in the UN. If I refer to Arab Israelis or Arab 48 I am refering to those Israelis who have to identify themselves with a 2 or with 8 stars on their identity cards as a symbol of Israel's second class of persons.

"I'd rather deal in reality, even if it isn't pretty. Sometimes the truth just ain't pretty. But, without reality you can't even begin to help people."

So please tell me: how is it refusing to deal with reality when I see children eating rats in Ramallah?

--------------------
God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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Sunnyside
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Grif, I'm not in a competition with you. But, yes, I lived there for quite a few months. I've called you out on your differentiating between Arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis in one of your past sermons/lectures. So let's not pretend now. You can dress it up however you like, but it still stinks. All of it.

I don't particularly care for you. I find it a little more than disturbingly interesting that a minister, a man supposedly bursting of love for humanity, has not even been able to make a friend here. Why is it that no one, besides you, is sensing that love and alloneuniversalhug?

I see that you have no plan to leave this board but I still don't understand your purpose here. Frankly, I don't trust your motives. Something just isn't right here.

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Griffon
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"You can dress it up however you like, but it still stinks. All of it."

Sorry that my desire for both peoples will have peace offends you. You misunderstand my feelings for Judaism and Islam because you made a judgment after one post, and call me a bigot.

If you read my lengthy posts, you also see that I say this is not a one sided affair. In fact if you read my posts you would see I never believe one side or the other is absolutely to blame in any conflict around the world. I simply don't believe conflict works that way. For instance, I mentioned looking down from near the Golan and seeing why Israel must have a presence. I spoke of Gaza and said I see why Israel has legitimate security concerns. I spoke of seeing Jerusalem surrounded on three sides by the PA. I blame poor, poor planning by the UN in not doing justice to Israeli and Palestinain alike in the hasty decision they made and the enthnic cleansing of Israel and the genocidal efforts of the Arabs in those early years as having come home to roost. I does stink, you're right, but not because of what I wrote. It stinks because of the reality two people groups, two ethnicities that had leaders willing to work together, instead followed leaders too short-sighted to do anything but hate. Now we are in real danger with Iran shooting its mouth off, of losing one or both ethnicities.

"I don't particularly care for you."

I know, and that saddens me because you do matter, and what you think matters to me. If it didn't I wouldn't be on these threads when I have a thesis proposal to finish. I could just tell you all to buy the book and make money off it. I prefer the free exchange of ideas, no matter how much they conflict with mine. To me, agreement or disagreement doesn't determine your worth.

"I find it a little more than disturbingly interesting that a minister, a man supposedly bursting of love for humanity, has not even been able to make a friend here. Why is it that no one, besides you, is sensing that love and alloneuniversalhug?"

Religion/faith is my topic. Human Rights based foreign policy is my second topic. The prophetic role is not to be popular, but to faithfully show forth God's message of justice and mercy for all people. Those are controvercial issues, and we argue over the worldview of how that is accomplished. Sunny, the video you asked me to watch demonstrated that you despise me. That's okay, in my eyes as God makes me able to grow, you are of sacred worth. I don't know you from beans (an Iowa hay-seed expression, not an insulting comparison) but whatever your religious, political and social beliefs, regardless of age, gender, ethnicity, or any other descriptor we use to divide people, you matter and your opinions matter to me.

"has not even been able to make a friend here."

Yeah, it's hard to break in to a clique. Don't worry friends are coming. I am used to bringing an unpopular message, controvercial. Prophets are always considered offensive, few of us want the role, but the love of God for the poor compels us. What do I want for Israel? I want Israel to be safe and strong. I want children in Tel Aviv to never have to witness the carnage of twisted metal I saw in '05. I want Israel's economy to become so strong they can tell the US they need no more aid. What do I want for the Palestinian Authority? I want them to stand against the lawless terrorists that have stolen that peoples' heritage to be run to ground so they kill neither Israeli or Palestinian in their villainy again. And I want them to develop infrastructure, education and medical facilities. I want their children to be able to eat better food and clean water. And for both I want them to each have a place to call home.

"Something just isn't right here"

You're right, but that's not my doing.

--------------------
God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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bdgee
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Griffon, you are an arrogant and ignorant pain in the butt is why you can't make friends.
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Griffon
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Hey all, check out the Jerusalem Times Op-Ed page article "Beyond the News" by IPCRI co-director Gershan Baskin. Fascinaing take on the conflict. Usually his Palestinian partner Hanna Sinora presents on Monday or Tuesday. Great stuff. Both advocate for a two-state solution.

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God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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jordanreed
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griff says....."Prophets are always considered offensive, few of us want the role,"


so now you consider yourself a prophet...
delusions of grandeur ...

dont bother to answer..
I know what you'll say

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jordan

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glassman
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you nailed it JR....

the men in the white suits are triangulating as we speak....

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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jordanreed
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pre·ten·tious [ pri ténshəss ]


adjective

Definition:

1. self-important and affected: acting as though more important or special than is warranted, or appearing to have an unrealistically high self-image


2. made to look or sound important: intended to seem to have a special quality or significance, but often seeming forced or overly clever
dismissed it as yet another pretentious film


3. ostentatious: extravagantly and consciously showy or glamorous

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jordan

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jordanreed
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know-it-all (plural know-it-alls)


noun

Definition:

somebody claiming to know everything: somebody who professes to know more or better than anyone else about everything ( informal )

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jordan

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jordanreed
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bore [ bawr ]


transitive verb (past and past participle bored, present participle bor·ing, 3rd person present singular bores)

Definition:

make somebody uninterested: to make somebody lose interest and so feel tired and annoyed
He bored us stiff with a detailed explanation of the itinerary for his vacation.

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jordan

Posts: 5812 | From: st paul,mn | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Sunnyside
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Narcissistic Personality Disorder

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

requires excessive admiration

has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes
advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

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Griffon
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Found it Glass and it is a nice story, it makes a convenient justification for something else too, and I see your point, but Jerusalem was in Muslim possession for roughly 1100 years give or take as we account for the Crusades.

The mytho-poetry as you said, grew up after to make it a holy shrine, but to use that as the justification for Israel's sole possession of Temple Mount is like saying the Hagia Sofia should be restored to Christian condition after not as many years as a Muslim mosque. It has passed into usage and undoing it furthers resentment already festering. That is not to say we should do nothing.

This is the reason I strive to demystify history. Mytho-poetic historiography, the hyperbolic manipulation of history to reflect current situations of possession, power and justice issues, is deadly to peace-building if it is not named, claimed and dealt with. Is it fair? No. Temple Mount was lost to Jewish people be invaders many times in history and the great power of God brought them to this point. I do not have the belief system of Christianity that says Israel must rebuild the Temple and all that dispensationalist theology.

But even then, I think Israel is far better served to let Muhammed's ascension be celebrated. The minute Islamo-facists start to believe it's false, they will blow Jerusalem up with a nuke. Listen to the news out of Iran and Syria today, and that is a real desire of those regimes. They want the land back and they hate the Jewish ethnicity.

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God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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Griffon
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Now, you might be inclined to say something like, "It's a religion thing, but the truth embedded in the Qu'ran is that Jews and Christians are "people of the Book." The religion is not to be assulted. However, political leaders of Islam, which by the way IS a political religion in that the state and religion are inseparable as far as the Qu'ran and other materials are concerned, know how Palestine was lost and avow Israel's destruction.

It is not an issue of religion, nor do they articulate it as such very often. It's about ethnicity and property. If it becomes obvious Temple Mount is to change or become unavailable, Iran would blow it up as I understand their rhetoric.

It's really quite ridiculous on the part of these three monotheistic religions to fall for that idea of the land being an important part of our identity, because each of the religions has the understanding of "bloom where planted" in their theology. The place of worship isn't as important as the worship. But people are like elephants this way: when under stress we like to retreat to the familiar, old bones, pick them up, hold them, remembering what has been and dreaming of what could be again.

Even if, as Glass very well-researched and presented. No doubt on-line? Thanks for that point Glass and I hope I actually answered what you were asking.

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God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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glassman
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But even then, I think Israel is far better served to let Muhammed's ascension be celebrated. The minute Islamo-facists start to believe it's false, they will blow Jerusalem up with a nuke. Listen to the news out of Iran and Syria today, and that is a real desire of those regimes. They want the land back and they hate the Jewish ethnicity.

d'oh? you mean we have to kill the Iranians? glad we agree .... been waiting awhile for the green light...

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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glassman
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However, political leaders of Islam, which by the way IS a political religion in that the state and religion are inseparable as far as the Qu'ran and other materials are concerned, know how Palestine was lost and avow Israel's destruction.

all religion is political... the question is will you allow it to be a State Religion or not...

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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