posted
Glass, it's not about annoying you. I don't set out to annoy people. It's simple, everything you say on this board is a Democrat's response. You were mad at me for days about the Carter-Saddam connection. You are still mad about the Clinton connection to genocide. These are simple historical facts but because they are perceived as inconvenient to Democrats, I'm a villain. Face it, you walk like a Democrat, you talk like a Democrat, you...are...a Democrat. Celebrate it, that's where I hope to return if we get a candidate that will apply a Human Rights based foreign policy.
And now that we are back to foreign policy, what problems do you have with my foreign policy idea?
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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"He is being put upon by the Jesus freaks."
Funny thing bdgee, he can't be "put upon" by Jesus freaks, he chose to come into a place where he knew the conversation would include Christian worldview. He also knew he could leave at anytime. See what you're saying here is that we dragged him in to this thread and forced him to remain. How he responds to the conversation is entirely up to him.
He may feel inspired to post his own, deliberately non-Christian, non-Centrist thread. He's entirely capable of doing so. All this suggests, he cannot be put upon by Christians. Neither can you unless you choose to stay and be in dialog in a thread that is put forward by a Christian.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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i was mad at you one night for posting iranian news..
you are working out how to get people to vote a certain way; i understand that...
i am not...
i am interested in factual data tho...
if Bush had found the smallpox or real WMD's in Iraq? i would have been waving the flag with everybody else..
not only did he not find it? he refused to acknowledge this and a few other terrible errors for a long time...
i grew up around SERIOUS politics... you are a dillitente... the people i grew up around made their living (or not) on the vote... i am not serious about politics...
i am serious about the truth...
you are confused.. you wish to convince me that you have some access to some Universal Truth... you don't...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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"you are confused.. you wish to convince me that you have some access to some Universal Truth... you don't..."
Yes I do, but that's not the issue here.
"i was mad at you one night for posting iranian news.."
You refused to accept it for two days, Glass, called me names, said I deserved hate speech. History has always been written by the victors, but hearing from the perspective of our opponents helps us understand where they are coming from. What I suggest is we are caught up in a war we could have prevented on many levels. How we exit and how we comport our selves while there is important in assuring we never have to return for real and dubious "national interests."
"you are working out how to get people to vote a certain way; i understand that..."
Not at all, I am actually working for us to understand how we got to this point in history. That's why I discuss Iraq's history more than the present. This mess came from somewhere and I believe understanding that helps us in the long run.
It's why I go back to the genocides of the 1990s because there are instabilities that the world community needs to take care of to insure no such things occur again. The foreign policy statement I posted in several postings above is meant to not make the US shoulder all the action, but to say to the world community, "Hey, why is this happening? Do something."
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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posted
Now, the issue of my foreign policy. The crux of the whole thing is whether the Tel Aviv-Jerusalem corridor can sustain the traffic that is involved in International diplomacy. Financially, both Israel and the Palestinian Authority need that level of investment to sustain their populations.
It may be that somewhere in "the Corridor" is where the actual site needs to be, but the Jerusalem as open city threat could be enough to ally Jew and Muslim.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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Yep, remodelled, renovated whatever, but a different UN there in Jerusalem perfectly, but probably in the corridor. The mere suggestion might be enough to get the Israelis and Arabs to agree on one thing: they don't want the UN in Jerusalem.
Seriously though, the economic carrot might help pragmatic people on both sides to begin a more helpful dialog. Neither country can sustain the population without considerable aid. This suggestion might change that, get a huge aid burden off other countries shoulders. And it would take twenty or more years to acomplish. Jerusalem is a beautiful, ancient city that has given the world three great cultural gifts. If any city in the world should be open to all, it's Jerusalem.
Idealistic? Sure. But when I set goals, they're big.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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I think it is necessary to be of specific religious belief to believe that Jerusalem is anything special.
Of course, I understand that if you are of such a specific religion, you cannot imagine it being simply an old city.
That is an easy way to point out religious bigots. They are those who pronounce their personal religious beliefs surmount the belief of all others.
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You're right bdgee, that's why I describe myself as Judeo-Islamo-Christian. I do not see myself as one or the other. One is the root-stock of the others, another is the flowering and the last is the revelation. I genuinely see that you cannot have one without them all. Of course I am of a minority perspective, but that's okay.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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You already stated that you disagree when you describe Jerusalem as important because it "...has given the world three great cultural gifts" (those specific religions I mentioned).
Now you up and say that "I think it is necessary to be of specific religious belief to believe that Jerusalem is anything special" is true.
Or don't you see the contradiction?
Let me state my point more directly, so it will maybe be clearer.
When a person declares that "something" (person, idea, object, whatever) deserves special status in the world (or such) because it holds particular favor or status or meaning in the religion of his belief, he is declaring his religios preferences should hold force over others and has shown himself to be bigoted.
Also, I realize that that person isn't necessarilly able to recognize that bigotry in himself, but it isn't his ability to recognize it that makes it bigotry.
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"When a person declares that "something" (person, idea, object, whatever) deserves special status in the world (or such) because it holds particular favor or status or meaning in the religion of his belief, he is declaring his religios preferences should hold force over others and has shown himself to be bigoted."
I wasn't clear about why Jerusalem is picked. I do not suggest Jerusalem out of religious preference, but out of socio-political confluence. This one city, is the center of three main Western religions to be sure, but it also is the epicenter of a culture clash based in ethnicity, architecture and history. It's a fascinating place like no other place in the world and religion is only part of that. Just the sheer volume of antiquities from thousands of years ago that belong to everyone. What better place to build the UN than in a city that shows: Jewish, Arab, European, Egyptian, Asian and American influences?
But the real reason to suggest Jerusalem is the three cultural gifts to the world: Arab, Israeli and Palestinian societies and their mytho-poetic inspiration, that need our investment if the population already there and growing is to be supported. It may sound crazy, but because of the tensions between those cultures, primarily though not exclusively couched in inaccurate religious terms, Jerusalem's Temple Mount is the heart of the struggle between Arab and Israeli.
I am saying in effect, the UN at Jerusalem within 20 years and the potential for Israel and the Palestinian Authority to become viable economies through the investment in UN structures and sociologically this tends to lead to less population growth and greater resistance to war.
Look, it's not a perfect solution. It may not even seem very practical right now. But see it for what it is: a suggestion for more creative thinkers to build upon or discard. Maybe it's just a dream, but after all we cannot embody peace until we first begin to envision what peace can look like.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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"Jerusalem's Temple Mount is the heart of the struggle between Arab and Israeli."
I know this seems a gross over-simplification, or abject naivete, but Jerusalem is the lynch-pin to the whole Middle East conflict and at the "top of the world" is Temple Mount. If the threat of declaring it an open city can't unite Palestinian and Israeli in a campaign nothing will. But what if it worked? What if for a shining moment in history those two peoples could see the benefits and say okay?
Jerusalem as an open city could be the 'twin capitol' of Israel and Palestine. Its defense provided by UN forces as I mentioned above would reduce what is arguably Israel's most vulnerable defensive position, ringed as it is on three sides by Palestine.
I know it's unworkable at present, and maybe its time will never come. But silly as it is, when I presented it at an Inter-religious Concerns Conference in Ankara, Turkey last year, UN, Israeli and Palestinian representatives said it was a good starting point. Just being polite but you know the sun even shines on a dog's behind once in awhile.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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posted
Do you not see that announcing that you do not single out Jerusalem as "special" out of religious preferences while simultaneously saying it is because it "... is the epicenter of a culture clash based in ethnicity, architecture and history" and failing to recognize that (1), your religious bent focuses you toward concern with Jerusalem and (2), it is only because its enjoys focus in the writings and tales of those three religions (i.e., it is highly advertised) that it "... is the epicenter of a culture clash..." caused by those three religions differing teachings (and preachings) on "ethnicity, architecture and history" is a prejudice?
It is clear you are singling out that city for preference because of religious preference. It is clear that you (whether or not you realize it), are declaring your religious preference should be dominate. I'm sorry, but THAT'S BIGOTRY and failure or unwillingness to recognize it as such is too.
n : a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own
and that just because an act is not recognized by its perpetrator as bigotry, does not make it be not bigotry.
Whenever ones feelings or ideas about the importance of a thing is influenced by religion, then bigotry is usually the result and too often that person either refuses or is not capable of recognizing the damage his prejudice causes.
Let me point to an example. Read http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigot for an example of where the prejudice if a simple single minded Christain, in ignorance and emboldened by his "choice" to believe his religious preferences outweighed all other's concerns, at least for almost a millennium, destroyed valuable information for the whole of mankind.
"Previously hidden writings of the ancient Greek mathematician Archimedes are being uncovered with powerful X-ray beams nearly 800 years after a Christian monk scrubbed off the text and wrote over it with prayers."
(And then there are the two greatest crimes of all human endeavor, the burning of the library in Alexandria and the burning of the library of the Axtecs.)
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Bdgee, are you saying that because Grif recognizes Jerusalem as an epicenter based on religion that his statement becomes bigoted? Or, are you saying that he identified Jerusalem's importance through his religion?
As far as I know, Jerusalem IS the epicenter for three religions and that IS what makes it an important piece of real estate.
posted
But, Bdgee, if bigotry is based on the intolerance of other ideas or opinions, I'd say that identifying Jerusalem as the epicenter of differing religions would negate the bigotry because it is inclusive of all those religions, rather than exclusive to one.
So, in essence, what I'm saying is that if I said I believed that Jerusalem was significant because of its Muslem origins, that would be bigoted. But saying that it is significant to all religions would not be bigoted.
And, I think that acknowledging Jerusalem as a religious epicenter is historical whether you believe in any religion or no religion.
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Yes, I understand the human nature part of what you're saying (although I was unaware of that historical info), but I guess I'm having difficulty with the bigotry part that Bdgee is expressing.
In Islam, the Prophet Muhammad's night journey from Mecca to Jerusalem prior to his famous trip to heaven is called Isra'. As alluded to in the Qur'an (17:1), a journey was made by a servant of God, in a single night, from the “sacred place of worship” (al-masjid al-haram) to the “further place of worship” (al-masjid al-aqsa).
Traditionally, there was general agreement that the servant of God was Muhammad and that the “sacred place of worship” was Mecca. Early commentators, however, interpreted the “further place of worship” as heaven, and the entire verse was considered a reference to the Prophet's ascension into heaven (Mi'raj), an ascension which also originated in Mecca. In the period of the Umayyad caliphate (661–750), the “further place of worship” was read as Jerusalem. The two versions were eventually reconciled by regarding the Isra' simply as the night journey and relocating the point of Muhammad's ascension from Mecca to Jerusalem to avoid confusion. Some commentators also suggested that the Isra' was a vision sent to Muhammad in his sleep and not an actual journey at all; but orthodox sentiment has emphatically preserved the physical, thus miraculous, nature of the trip.
The Isra' story, greatly elaborated by tradition, relates that Muhammad made the journey astride Buraq (q.v.), a mythical winged creature, in the company of the archangel Gabriel. Muhammad meets Abraham, Moses, and Jesus in Jerusalem; he then officiates as leader (imam) of the ritual prayer (salat) for all the prophets assembled and establishes his primacy among God's messengers. http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/myth/Miraj.html
some people just wanna hate, and some just wanna fight...
and some? just wanna take the other kids toys...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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In Islamic legend, the ascension of the Prophet Muhammad into heaven. In this legend, Muhammad is prepared for his meeting with God by the archangels Jibril and Mikal one evening while he is asleep in the Ka'bah, the sacred shrine of Mecca. They open up his body and purify his heart by removing all traces of error, doubt, idolatry, and paganism and by filling it with wisdom and belief. In the original version of the mi'raj, the prophet is then transported by Jibril directly to the lowest heaven. But early in Muslim history the story of the ascension came to be associated with the story of Muhammad's night journey (isra') from the “sacred place of worship” (Mecca) to the “further place of worship” (Jerusalem). The two separate incidents were gradually combined so that chronologically the purification of Muhammad in his sleep begins the sequence; he is then transported in a single night from Mecca to Jerusalem by the winged mythical creature Buraq, and from Jerusalem he ascends to heaven, possibly by ladder (mi'raj), accompanied by Jibril.
hmmmm....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Off hand, I can't think of a single "place" that has been so long in political (religious) contention or that has caused so so many wars or so many hundreds of thousands of people to be killed. (Maybe had not the Romans, wiped Carthage off the face of the Earth it might have been a rival for that honor.)
The desire to "claim" Jerusalem for "my" religion has left more homeless, more dead, more crippled, and mosre disallusioned, I am sure, than all of the natural desasters that have harassed mankind, ever.
It isn't even true that it is "the birthplace" of any of the three religions that want to claim it as such. What those tales actually do is serve as a means of justifying bigotry.
I say level it and never allow any structure to ever be built there again or any person to take up residence on the site. It worked with Carthage!
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posted
Thanks Glass. I always thought that THE religious center of Muslems was Mecca, but really didn't know that much of the history.
However, I do agree with Bdgee about Grif being a bigot. Although he gratuitously states "that's why I describe myself as Judeo-Islamo-Christian," and further states "I do not see myself as one or the other," but is a Christian minister. So, huh?
Additionally, as a non-Christian it is easy to hear Grif's self-righteous religious condescension. To me its akin to saying that Alcoholics Anonymous is non-sectarian when it really is Christian based. Not to say its bad, but it just is.
I think Grif has made the statement several times why anyone decides to read his thread and respond if they are so offended. He makes a point of saying he has free speech and can post whatever. I actually don't understand why he is here. He's not a trader and has absolutely no relation to this board. I also think that people become compelled to respond to his diatribes simply BECAUSE of their offensiveness. But, maybe that's just me.
Personally, I resent his constant religious quotes to attempt to substantiate his points, since he seems to take it for granted that we all have a similar religiously based belief system or, if not, we should. Because if we did, we would then agree with his political beliefs (which, I might add, are contradictory). He fails to demonstrate any ethno or religio-inclusiveness (I can make up my own too) since its all Christian based. And Bdgee would be correct there in stating you do not have to recognize your own bigotry to be a bigot.
I know that in my profession religion has to be a neutral subject so as not intrude with mine and thus alienate patients. Individuals' beliefs may be reinforced and supported as their own means of comfort, and that is how I believe you respect others' religious beliefs. Grif is not neutral.
I certainly didn't realize that we had a "conversion" thread on this message board, which each of his topics digresses into.
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quote:Originally posted by Sunnyside: Thanks Glass. I always thought that THE religious center of Muslems was Mecca, but really didn't know that much of the history.
However, I do agree with Bdgee about Grif being a bigot. Although he gratuitously states "that's why I describe myself as Judeo-Islamo-Christian," and further states "I do not see myself as one or the other," but is a Christian minister. So, huh?
Additionally, as a non-Christian it is easy to hear Grif's self-righteous religious condescension. To me its akin to saying that Alcoholics Anonymous is non-sectarian when it really is Christian based. Not to say its bad, but it just is.
I think Grif has made the statement several times why anyone decides to read his thread and respond if they are so offended. He makes a point of saying he has free speech and can post whatever. I actually don't understand why he is here. He's not a trader and has absolutely no relation to this board. I also think that people become compelled to respond to his diatribes simply BECAUSE of their offensiveness. But, maybe that's just me.
Personally, I resent his constant religious quotes to attempt to substantiate his points, since he seems to take it for granted that we all have a similar religiously based belief system or, if not, we should. Because if we did, we would then agree with his political beliefs (which, I might add, are contradictory). He fails to demonstrate any ethno or religio-inclusiveness (I can make up my own too) since its all Christian based. And Bdgee would be correct there in stating you do not have to recognize your own bigotry to be a bigot.
I know that in my profession religion has to be a neutral subject so as not intrude with mine and thus alienate patients. Individuals' beliefs may be reinforced and supported as their own means of comfort, and that is how I believe you respect others' religious beliefs. Grif is not neutral.
I certainly didn't realize that we had a "conversion" thread on this message board, which each of his topics digresses into.
Very well written! Not because I agree (though I certainly do), but because while reading it I was laughing so hard at its indirect truths. Its direct truths are a prize.
It has always been my feeling that failing to point out to religious bigots that they are such has the effect of not letting the people they are bigoted against see that they are not alone and, thereby, contributing to the bogotry.
Freedom of all kinds (and most particularly freedom of thought, that kind most esssential to happiness) needs openness so thrive. Almost all religiuous practice and dogma is like salt on the ground of free thought.
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"the problem is not a place... the problem is human nature..."
Exactly right Glass. Some on this thread make the mistake of assuming one way of thought, one belief system or another, makes one somehow better than others. Because as Paul put it: "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" and because I know this all too well, the anthropology I operate out of is this: we're all in the same boat, no one is better or worse than anyone else.
Since I have no intolerance of other people folks, you wasted alot of time and space on this oh so beautiful day. There is not an ounce of bigotry in me. Nuff said on a dead topic.
Back to the point of the thread, the central point of resolution for peace to be achieved in the Middle East is Jerusalem. The population density of the region, lack of natural resources including water, limited infrastructure, cultural controls, all amount to a continuing festering boil for Israeli and Palestinian alike. Having taken time to reflect on your statements about a character out of the Lord of the Rings, I think this thread needs to answer a question in the second movie as it relates to this question before us (bad segue, but who cares): "How did it come to this?"
This all goes back to the UN failing to do its job in 1947-8, but it was a war-weary, fledgling organization that wanted to go home. Sadly, the decisions they made on creating the state of Israel led to the Arab effort at that time, though other forces have come into play since then, to destroy Israel as an ethnicity, people group, identity. Israel was no saint in that process either at places like Deir Yaddin and Gisk (Jish?)(Check out Ilan Pappe's Book A History of Modern Palestine)
Now we find ourselves at the point where Israel is once again under attack and attacking, her very existence a question after Iran's recent statements. The UN has failed Israel and the US has been Israel's guarantor from those early days to the present. But we need to begin to forge a peace that will guarantee Israel's place and voice in the world community not just for a few more years but until the eschaton.
Likewise, Palestine has seen dos-possession of nearly all potable drinking water, ethnic cleansing campaigns, peace accords that were one-sided, etc, what has been sid above is true for Palestine as well except: UN and US both failed the Palestinian people. So finally, as Hamas and Hezbollah used Iran's money to build hospitals and schools, provide construction work and sanitation system, who do you think Palestinians trust? Where was the promised assistance we would offer? In Arafat's pocket and we let it happen.
The time has come for both parties to be dealt with fairly by the world community. We need to resolve the issue of land possession in Jerusalem once and for all because in the end, that is the only way the two sides will survive.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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