French troops under UN auspices would enter into Lebanon to be a buffer between Israel and Lebanon (Hezbollah?) after the cessation of hostilities. Is this a good idea? A former Mandate power returning to the scene of their crime to fix things.
Posted by Griffon on :
Why yes it is! Because it is a case of the former power expending money that they obtained stealing from this indigenous culture. Only problem is, usually once France claims something, it takes war to get rid of them.
Posted by Griffon on :
. The present configuration of the United Nations is still a reaction to the Cold War. A new paradigm is needed. Structures need to be re-examined and re-designed. The Security Council is one example, but the peace-keeping mandate, the genocide treaty, UNICEF, various relief agencies all need to reflect a global community, not three worlds hopelessly divided. One area of proof of its antiquated structure is the Israel/Palestine question. Clearly, this situation is too volatile for the present expressin of peace-keeping, nevertheless the terrorism on both sides needs to end. Further, the dilema of two nations having historical, social, cultural and religious ties to what is essentially the same plot of ground defies present legal conceptualization of nationhood. Similar trouble is essentially borne out in the question of China/Taiwan/Hong Kong. The international community lacks the jurisprudence to acknowledge simultaneous claims to the same land. This must come from a re-definition of nation as well as of the UN. The ties to the land are brilliantly put forth in Elias Chacour's "Blood Brothers" and "We Belong to the Land." He also is the founder of the Mar Elias School for Palestinian-Israeli Jews, Christians, Muslims and Druze. It is the first Palestinian school of its kind and it became a University under the direct support of James Baker and Shimon Perez. The notion that one can or should be dispossessed now is patently ludicrous. However, tribal claims to the land must cease too. What is my suggestion (sure to be unpopular in some sections of academia)?
Posted by glassman on :
nevertheless the terrorism on both sides needs to end.
LOL.... never happen....the price of oil might drop back to 40$ if it did....
Posted by Griffon on :
I suggest that we should actively lobby for a new UN mandate that better reflects the needs of the world community. I also suggest that the UN and world community declare Jerusalem an open city and the new UN headquarters. In this declaration, priority needs to be given for the formation of two national governments to function in Jerusalem: one Israeli, the other Palestinian. Only by working out a jurisprudence that empowers both people to have a nation that occupies the same space can there be healthy resolution and coersed reconciliation. If sovereignty is closely observed by the UN both sides stand to lose too much to risk continuing the struggles. It will also generate the needed economic systems to empower both nations. I did say it would be unpopular but give it a moment to settle in.
Posted by Griffon on :
Next, somehow the US and the UN as a whole need to set standards in black and white that define genocide, mass murder and ethnic cleansing. There has got to be a clearer, less debatable and quicker evaluation of what these things are. There must also be clear delineation of the consequences are for those who engage in genocide, mass murder and ethnic cleansing. I am sure the instinct will be to say we should stay out of them all. It is an isolationist foreign policy that has consistently failed the historical, empirical test. Isolationism encouraged Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Milosovic, Panic, Hussein and others in their efforts of mass murder, ethnic cleansing and genocide. I hope you recognized that I was blaming the lessons of brutal leadership on colonialism. The colonial powers brutally repressed colonists. The Western powers’ administration of colonies taught leaders to be brutal, played upon tribal tensions, taught that might equals right, taught that power meant better culture, and exploited land and people. That is the lesson we handed down to the new leaders of fledgling nations. The legacy of colonialism is found in brutal dictators, military juntas, coups, exploitation of the masses, cultural malaise, terrorist governments and militant opposition.
Because the Western powers taught the lessons of brutality and mass murder out of economic and political expediency, they must now raise a new issue. The world community is morally, ethically responsible for removing leaders who brutalize their populations, first in the powers who caused the instability, but also as the world. The world community must stand together, even if arms must be raised. The world community must cry with one voice against these dictatorial monsters whose power is expressed in terrorizing and neglecting their culture, nation and/or tribe. Until the world stands together and in resolve against depersonalizing leaders genocide and murder will happen regardless of the party in the White House. Those brutal, evil leaders must know, absolutely know, that if they mistreat their people, they will lose power and live in a cage for the rest of their lives. They simply must not be allowed to have control of other peoples' lives. It should also be pointed out that in these cases at present, when the world community represented in the UN lacks political or ethical will to help the powerless end mass slaughter, it is still the absolute duty of all nations to take action. Genocide, ethnic cleansing and mass murder must end and where the UN fails to act, it does not relieve the world community of its moral obligation to end these atrocities.
Posted by Relentless. on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: French troops under UN auspices would enter into Lebanon to be a buffer between Israel and Lebanon (Hezbollah?) after the cessation of hostilities. Is this a good idea? A former Mandate power returning to the scene of their crime to fix things.
It's a pointless plan simply because the hostilities are not going to end. Soon Syria will be directly involved.. and then Iran. And then us.
Posted by Griffon on :
"It's a pointless plan simply because the hostilities are not going to end. Soon Syria will be directly involved.. and then Iran. And then us."
There's still time. I think you will find Stira lose its nerve or the battle before Iran can react. The one I think is turning from what was said today is Jordan. If Israel answers the calls for a cease-fire, it will de-escalate for a time. If Syria comes across, a military mistake even if the US were not in the region, it will be because the IDF has gotten too close to where the ammo stores in Bekka are hiding. Iran can't get to Israel yet because a much better prepared and armed force is between Iran and Israel. But you are right it is a scary time.
Posted by Griffon on :
To that end, the UN needs a "Quick Reaction Force" of trained professional troops and equipment to deal with these situations in order to prevent the onset, or react immediately to events that equate with mass murder. Now the reason such need to be in place is well documented in events surrounding the Kurds in 88-89 and the Rwandans in 94. National and even international political and ethical will cannot be counted on to do the right thing. There must be a clear threshold that is easy to monitor and document, and some proverbial "lead in the pencil" to back up the promise that we will remove leaders that abuse their people. For the nations that have a process in place removal of leaders and peaceful transfer of power is becoming tradition. In our country, elections take place as they have for 200+ years. But many nations only experience transition through violence, through coup. That violence often spills over into the administration. The threat of immanent removal for malpractice might instruct would-be leaders that they better not take their aggression out on innocent people.
Posted by Griffon on :
The US must adopt a foreign policy that works on consistency. The Presidential preferences for certain national priorities as they perceive them provide more of a roulette game approach from the perspective of petty dictators. We too need a threshold of intervention that is clear, detailed and concise. There are too many political games played and the cost is paid in too many lives.
Posted by Griffon on :
The foreign policy approach we take must cease the effort to create socio-political-economic-cultures in our image, instead we must work to empower nations to built their own cultural expression of socio-political-economic structures. These structures must be an extension and expression of their communal (tribal) sense of being. We must embrace a unity in diversity understanding of international relationships, recognizing that other nations need not embrace our ideology for us to share peace.
Posted by Griffon on :
As we fight the War on Terror, we must also analyze what has caused this world wide struggle. This war is not only about the US but we have been struck deeply by it. The damage has been terrible, emotionally, psychologically and materially. The instability caused by colonialism and Cold War has now visited us. May I suggest this is our most complex task. We must find the root causes of terrorism, and recognize the role Western domination of the world plays in it. The cycle of hopelessness, seeing resources leave to make others powerful, seeing violence and oppression, must end. It has changed some people forever violence is simply all they know. We must find new ways of valuation that empower them for their own culturally-determined goals. And the patronizing approach must end.
We must also come to a deeper understanding of what Marc Ellis called the "Unholy Alliance" in his book of that name. Like political extremes, religious extremes are mechanisms of instability. They are invariably uncompromising in their vision of the world, hurtful and aggressive in doling out violence, intellectual, verbal, and/or physical. Some part of this war on terror is a battle of ultra orthodox theologies, but there is also the battle of political ideologies, ultra-liberal and ultra-conservative, and economic ideologies, communist and capitalist. These forces become so entangled that people and personhood is destroyed. We neglect personhood, or at the very least bury it under a bunch of descriptive but depersonalizing terms. The labels negate the person. And that prevents us from sitting down at a table of fellowship. The approach to foreign policy I advocate also includes putting away the labels of nullification and interposition and beginning to see each other as persons with rich variety of perspective. Well, I hope this is enough to chew on for awhile. It is not a complete statement but some rest beckons. Have fun all, and may we set down the labels to offer a hand of community.
Posted by Griffon on :
Now friends, tell me where in my foreign policy do you find a conservative? The absolute, incontrovertable truth is that I am a nice, friendly, radical centrist Christian with no political agenda. That's what frees me up to study history so effectively. That and my love of other cultures and their preservation.
Posted by bdgee on :
You are "conservative" because you are goose-stepping to the cadence of the facist in the Administration.
What else you are is an egtistical a$$ that prisses about preaching falsehoods of his own worth, such as,"The absolute, incontrovertable truth is that I am a nice, friendly, radical centrist Christian with no political agenda. That's what frees me up to study history so effectively. That and my love of other cultures and their preservation."
That's sick!
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Hey Bdgee- Better get used to it, he ain't leaving. I can tell you woke up spoiling for a fight. You need some new material man. Glassman is the idea man we get that. You'r role is attack dog, shouting down anyone and everyone that disagrees with the rest of you, we get that. Now at one point do you actually post an idea? Or is it just all whining?
Posted by bdgee on :
Oh brother of aragorn, we quiver at your pronouncement. Please be gentle and show kindness as the two of you remake our word to conform to your design.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Holy spit...... Bdgee actually said the word please. Did Glassman tell you to say please?
Posted by bdgee on :
JW,
It is a common courtesy.....something you never bothered to learn.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Whatever you say Frodo!!
Posted by glassman on :
JW, aragaorn was poster here awhile back...
you guys share some similarities... so? you are a brother of aragorn..
Aragorn spent a great dealof time 'splaining to US that Bush was justified invading Iraq because there really were WMD's...
Posted by Johnwayne on :
My reference was to Lord of the Rings!!! Dang and it took me a long time to find out who aragon was!
Posted by glassman on :
Aragorn was strider...
Aragorn was a true King in that he was reluctant to seize power for power's sake and saw from afar that the crown is heavy.... of course? in the story he never has to actually rule, he just gets to lead men in battle...so it's only half the story.. or less
here: see if you can find where this comes from... "Death is lighter than a feather, but Duty is heavier than a mountain."
if you enjoy reading? there are several thousand pages where this comes from.. written by a true warrior, and? excellent discourse on the nature of good and evil, how man's struggle with himself is represented in the wars he wages etc.. etc..
Posted by bdgee on :
Glass....,
I have noticed some pecularly similar wordings by Griffon and aragorn when speaking of a claim that the Constitution specifically grants "freedom of religion" and specifically denies "freedom from religion" (with, of course, the same repugnant implication as to a lack of "freedom of religion for anyone else). Moreover, he generates almost the same "reasoning" to justify that and other religious "desires" concerning U. S. law. Has the same faulty notion that "of" and "from" are discordant or mutually exclusive and claims that to be a result of logic.
Posted by Griffon on :
"You are "conservative" because you are goose-stepping to the cadence of the facist in the Administration."
Given your use of racial slurs, you would know alot about goose-stepping and facism bdgee. Read the plan. No Bush fan here. But you do have a political agenda, scream down whoever disagrees with you. History saw that as the Hitler Assassination conspirators were railed against by their trial judge. Again you ally yourself with facist tactics bdgee. You then negate the...no, let's go back to the topic of the thread. I offered a plan that builds on the present American French plan which appears to be dead in the water.
Posted by Griffon on :
"specifically denies "freedom from religion"
Never, ever said that bdgee. Feel free to post where I said the Constitution says freedom from religion is denied. Obviously you lost track of what I actually said.
Posted by bdgee on :
Yeah ya did.
And get it through you bigoted head, I don't feel compelled to post beans to suit you.
What you actually said is that the Constitution does not give freedom from religion.
Perhaps you lost track while you were getting directions from Rove.
Posted by Griffon on :
"What you actually said is that the Constitution does not give freedom from religion."
Read the context bdgee, in response to your saying, "The Constitution grants freedom from religion, no where does it say freedom of religion." To which I replied, "The Establishment clause is not about freedom from religion." Which is patently true. The founders did not include the establishment clause to exclude religion from the public square, they included it to prevent one religion from dominating the public square and shutting others out. I know you want to re-write 175-200 years of jurisprudence in our history so your version can fit, but you are wrong.
The "instructions from Rove thing" sounds alot like whining and simply shows your desparation because you can't argue anything but hate Bush. This thread is about finding a foreign policy. This thread is not about hate Bush and if that upsets you there are lots of threads where you can do that. This thread is about balance. And to that end let's get back to talking about foreign policy:
and again she sounds like it would be business as usual. Now this is significant because she will win the nomination in '08 barring a huge charge from someone outside the pack. This will happen as an homage to former President Clinton and because the effort to hold the Liberal wing in the party. But her foreign policy stance so far is completely inadequate.
What choice would I support from both parties?
Barak Obama has the beginnings of a good foreign policy. Listen:
Please note, the article cited here also takes you to a great website for checking most major political agents and their stance on several issues.
Posted by glassman on :
The "instructions from Rove thing" sounds alot like whining and simply shows your desparation because you can't argue anything but hate Bush
actually Grifoon... this statement has much more to do with telling you your presentation sucks..totally..
try appealing to our conscience and reason instead of shame and guilt and hate...
that's if you really do want to change things... we aren't your average idiots here...we see and read lies everyday on the market, we are disriminating idiots.. ...your tactical aproach is what's wrong...
Posted by Griffon on :
"And get it through you bigoted head, I don't feel compelled to post beans to suit you."
First, since I do not use racially charged language and you do, the bigot thing reveals you have a hypocritical streak bdgee. Now don't feel bad about that since all human beings have back-sliding issues.
"I don't feel compelled to post beans to suit you."
I would hope not. I offer an invitation to clear the air, not compulsion. Compulsion would be leaving you with only one thread to talk on and providing rules for what the topics can be. I do neither. I gently remind people to come back to the circle and enter into the topic of discussion. However, it does SEEM you are rather obsessive about me and my opinions. Should I be flattered that for some macabre reason you strive so hard to change the topic of every thread to suit your speciality? Oops, that was a question and in all humorous-ness, I know how you feel about questions.
Come on bdgee, let's have some fun and talk about the issues as presented in threads.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
"try appealing to our conscience and reason instead of shame and guilt and hate..."
Interesting..... tell me how you propose that should be done. I do not see one post he has posted with shame, guilt or hate, but I suspect that has more to do with this boards pre conceived notions than griff's words. Never the less, there is always room for improvement.
Posted by glassman on :
Interesting..... I do not see one post he has posted with shame, guilt or hate, but I suspect that has more to do with this boards pre conceived notions than griff's words.
are you braindead?
d'oh? Why does the Democratic party support genocide! Posted by Griffon on :
"are you braindead? d'oh? Why does the Democratic party support genocide!"
No hate there
Posted by glassman on :
right?
and you want to equate the term wetback as a racial slur...
but accusing half of america of SUPPORTING genocide is not hate full?
go shove it...
i'm not even a dem and i am offended..get it? you are unwell...
Posted by Johnwayne on :
The agenda here is clear.... if a poster does not agree lock step with most on this board, on every issue, run 'em off. No dissenting opinion allowed. If you don't hate Bush leave.
If you post anything political that varies from "Hate Bush" you are not welcome here and your posts are labelled irrelivant.
And God help you if you say anything positive about religion, than you are really attacked.
"Religion is not faith" "Well, all I know is the last time I went to a church I heard the republican church was the dumb one" "There is no God" Blah, Blah, Blah.......
There should be room for all opinions on this board, yours and mine
[ August 04, 2006, 13:56: Message edited by: Johnwayne ]
Posted by Griffon on :
as I came from within the party, I am offering a critique of my former party leaders. Never the less, I should have said, "Why did Democratic Party Leaders support genocide?" Much more accurate and to the point. That resolved, let's come back to
"this statement has much more to do with telling you your presentation sucks..totally.."
Defend your friend all you want, that's a commendable act. But the presentation is exactly what I see on these boards all the time. So I am doing it right. What you have a problem with is the topic I choose to discuss. See, Glass, as much as loyalty is commendable, so is honesty. You don't like the topics and you don't like that I won't just speak the way you think is right.
""try appealing to our conscience and reason instead of shame and guilt and hate..."
I did and you replied with hate. Look at this thread...conscience and reason. Who took it another direction? bdgee and glassman. You are not objective enough to see this glass, but look: bdgee uses racial epithets and you defend him. Sunnyside offers me a decapitation video and you defend her. Who's attacking?
You don't address the issue because you have a simple agenda that isn't about the future, it isn't about peace, it's about Bush. You've been "Dean-ed" to the point you see only one side.
Face it Glass, you want me to be a nice, passive little mouse in the corner. That is not who I will be. Christians and centrists should be allowed to present on these boards. You all been pushing people off who you didn't like. Dustoff can articulate that when he talks about wanting to meet the "old clique." What you want is a few guys to come in so you can go "on the hunt" and drive them off. And now you figured out you can't drive me off, what an un-Democratic thing to do, so you expect me to come in sit by the fire like some old, gray dog wagging his tail at the scraps thrown to him. That dog has done come home and riled up the flock. But they will settle.
Posted by bdgee on :
No, Glass, I disagree, at least partially. He may be unwell, as you say, but what causes the trash he post here comes as a result of two things.
He is a bigoted know-it-all and he is really deep down inside not smart enough to understand how ignorant he is.
I leave to the reader the exercise of exrtrapolation to determinine where upon the scale his brother ranks.
Posted by glassman on :
Operation Wetback was a 1954 project of the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service to remove all illegal aliens from the southwestern United States, with a focus on Mexican nationals. Such illegaly resident Mexican citizens were called wetbacks; this term is now used as a derogotoray term for anyone of Hispanic origin or appearance.
interesting:
i've never used the term until this week...
i find it interesting: being lectured by iowa farmboys on the subject...
i grew up INSIDE the DC beltway... bussing? yup been there done that...
and yes i lived in so cali for awhile...
and yes i am not 100% white blooded..
wikipedia say its a racial slur too...
and yet? i see criminals hiding underneath it...
illegal is illegal...
that's how i see it...
i tend to avoid any type of slurs...
but i am for sending every person her illegally home... they can re-apply from there..like the LEGALS do... not hard to understand is it? LOL
Posted by Johnwayne on :
You did not say it Glassman. And Bdgee could have said alot of things in 1954 that he can't get by saying today.
Agree with you on the illegal part.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
"I leave to the reader the exercise of exrtrapolation to determinine where upon the scale his brother ranks."
No you don't Bdgee, you scream it out everyday. But you say the same blanket thing about everybody that disagrees with you so I'm not sure anybody puts too much stock in it.
Posted by bdgee on :
Any Texan knows "wetback" is not a derogotory term, but one used to describe certain people as illegally in the U.S. (swam the Rio Grand River, in other words) rather than native.
Just how you use it elsewhere is not our responsibility. If you want to be derogatory, suit yourself.
Actually, I learned that term as a boy from Mexicans, some legal, some not, and I don't think they were intending to be deragotory.
I learned most of my first words from a wonderful old black man who took it upon himself to care for me and, if you think "wetback" is derogatory, you really would be incensed with the terms he used to describe himself and those of his race.
Posted by glassman on :
too true budgy... my African American friends offended me when they started calling themselve African American too..
but i asked them? why? and they CORRECTLY pointed out to me that Africa is not a nation it's a continent, so i came to accept the new term... but when the term first became popular? i was very uncomfortable with it...
Black is what African Americans PROUDLY called themselves when we were in jr high and high together...
Posted by Griffon on :
Face it bdgee, you used a racial slur. Its etymology may go back to a simpler time, but it is still passed into usage as a racial slur.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Well Bdgee there are more than just Texans reading this board. I think society as a whole has accepted that type of talk from someone of the same race.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
but when the term first became popular? i was very uncomfortable with it...
Agreed
Posted by glassman on :
terms change ... grifoon..JW... this is just another place where i totally disagree with you grif.. if somebody in hollywood decided to make the term derogatory? so be it..illegal is illegal.... wetback means illegal to me...not Hispanic...
i still wouldn't use it to define someone, but i still think of African Americans as Blacks... can't help it..they asked me to think that when i was young...i don't mean to be derogatory
Posted by Griffon on :
Returning to the topic of the thread now:
Here's what John McCain says about foreign policy:
"Q: Would you intervene militarily if human rights abuses were at stake? A: There are times when our principles are so offended that we have to do what we can to resolve a terrible situation. If Rwanda again became a scene of horrible genocide, if there was a way that the US could stop. But we can never say that a nation driven by Judeo-Christian principles will only intervene where our interests are threatened because we also have values. If genocide is allowed, the consequences later are more severe."
Posted by bdgee on :
Society as a whole, at least in the U.S. has accepted that it is ill mannered for anyone to constantly preach radical religious ideas to people that didn't assemble to hear it, yet you and your brother continue to harass anyone you can with it.
You and your arrogant loudmouth brother are bigots, declaring anyone not locked in goose stepping cadence with your far rightwing facist agenda to to be askew of propriety and any chance of salvartion.
You are a pair of jerks with no manners at all and no decency to speak of, except that you speak of it anyway, constantly, as if it were there.
Posted by glassman on :
good, now you are digging...
McCain lost.. Gore lost.. America chose... LOL... my point made...
there was no political will to do what you ask...
and IMO? Bush abused his powers to get the current war started
Posted by Griffon on :
"Society as a whole, at least in the U.S. has accepted that it is ill mannered for anyone to constantly preach radical religious ideas to people that didn't assemble to hear it, yet you and your brother continue to harass anyone you can with it."
When you come into a thread that I post you do so voluntarily do you not? Did someone tell you you had to come into threads that I post? In the first place, the ideas are not radical religion, that would be Baba. So you entered a thread I started knowing that I have a religious worldview.
"good, now you are digging..."
You do condescension pretty good. I do far more research than you seem to want to admit. In fact, what I arrived at in this thread is consistent with the growing community of peace-builders.
"McCain lost.. Gore lost.. America chose... LOL... my point made..."
No point was made at all. This site, if you check it out collects political statements from all kinds of would-be leaders. Hillary and McCain are potential candidates in two years. Nice to hear this side of the political dialog isn't it.
"there was no political will to do what you ask..."
Political will grows. If you study history, the Revolution has its roots more than 100 years prior to the actualy event. This will be the same. Ideas grow and with them comes political will all along history's path. The peace-building movement, as it grows, will help political will grow too. My idea is one of many.
Posted by glassman on :
yeah but you dug only one quote:
read more:
Africa: Money for AIDS would be lost to corruption Q: Should we appropriate $300 million out of the surplus to help fight AIDS in Africa? A: I would do anything in my power to stop this terrible affliction. But we have corrupt governments; we have organizations that don’t treat the people. So before I spent our taxpayers’ money on that, I would have to make sure that it would go to the recipients and those of these poor people who are afflicted with this terrible disease. Frankly, in a lot of parts of Africa today, I do not have that confidence.
we cannot "save the world" especially with guns... it's oxymoronic... i have only to use that word one more time on you today and it'll stick forever... Posted by Griffon on :
"You and your arrogant loudmouth brother are bigots, declaring anyone not locked in goose stepping cadence with your far rightwing facist agenda to to be askew of propriety and any chance of salvartion."
bdgee, YOU are the bigot, we have it right on this board. The right-wing facist line is old and worn-out but you use it to hide the fact this isn't what you want to talk about. Give it up.
"So you entered a thread I started knowing that I have a religious worldview."
Completing this earlier thought, Bdgee you came here willingly. You new, I present from a Christian worldview. You sought my threads out and entered in. Off topic Post means I can't talk about stocks, but nothing in that says I cannot post my thesis on Peace-making or engage in conversation minus my Christian worldview.
Now having entered into a place where you knew a Christian presenter was posting, why is it such a problem for you, that I use my free speech and free religion in this free society to express myself in ways that reflect my Christian faith? How many other threads are there, but you chose this one and the other two I presently post on (I stopped on two old ones last night)? Go and look at ALL you have to choose from. What brought you here? You can start a topic on anything you choose, except stocks, why do you come to mine? If I were in your shoes, I would be asking the same question.
Obviously, Barak Obama is the best foreign policy choice for our next president from my perspective.
Posted by Griffon on :
"it's oxymoronic... i have only to use that word one more time on you today and it'll stick forever..."
If it makes you feel better. Actually, my purpose was served in just getting people to find that site as a good political resource to see where people stand on issues.
"But we have corrupt governments; we have organizations that don’t treat the people."
Yes but his plan for solving that is presented too:
"What area of international policy would you change immediately? A: Our policies concerning rogue states: Iraq, Libya, North Korea-those countries that continue to try to acquire weapons of mass destruction and the means to deliver them. I’d institute a policy that I call “rogue state rollback.” I would arm, train, equip, both from without and from within, forces that would eventually overthrow the governments and install free and democratically elected governments."
Thus Barak Obama is a better choice as I said.
Posted by glassman on :
I would arm, train, equip, both from without and from within, forces that would eventually overthrow the governments and install free and democratically elected governments." read that to be same o'same o' CIA stuff...
if Barak is promoting invading other countries to 'save" them? i won't vote for him...
Posted by bdgee on :
When you come into this board you do so voluntarily do you not? Did someone tell you you had to come into this board?
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Did someone tell you you had to read his posts? Especially once you figured out that you don't agree with him?
He has the right to post on this site, no?
Posted by Griffon on :
Yep I do come voluntarily, occupy my threads that I am allowed to post and I present. You do not set the rules do you?
Posted by glassman on :
heehee bdgee... they send the seminary students over for their "trial by fire"
Posted by bdgee on :
Yep, don't you remember what aragorn posted about his "assignment" to come to Allstock's "Off-Topic Post, Non Stock Talk" to overwhelm the non-christain talk.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Where's the fire Glassman? Haven't seen one yet to cause him to even break a sweat.
Posted by bdgee on :
Do you feel overwhelmed, Glass...?
Posted by Griffon on :
See bdgee, you are free to roam anywhere on the internet right? but there is a risk in that, you will find someone who disagrees with you. And you are free to express yourself within this board if you freely choose to enter in, but you may encounter a thread title that disagrees with you. You may even enter into any thread you choose right? I think we have established that by now.
So I am not telling you that you must come visit my threads; I am not telling you that you can't come to my threads. Again that is entirely voluntary as we have agreed. What I am saying is that my Christian worldview will be apparent in the threads I post, and you have the option, the freedom to enter or not, but if you enter, you will encounter a person talking about Christ. The rules of this board allow me that priveledge and as long as they do I'll be here.
As I was invited to do by glassman when I entered these boards, I express myself as though I am right about everything.
Posted by Griffon on :
"I would arm, train, equip, both from without and from within, forces that would eventually overthrow the governments and install free and democratically elected governments."
My bad, this was a quote from McCain, which explains why I will not vote for him.
"if Barak is promoting invading other countries to 'save" them? i won't vote for him..."
here's what he says:
US policy should promote democracy and human rights
In every region of the globe, our foreign policy should promote traditional American ideals: democracy and human rights; free and fair trade and cultural exchanges; and development of institutions that ensure broad middle classes within market economies.
It is our commonality of interests in the world that can ultimately restore our influence and win back the hearts and minds necessary to defeat terrorism and project American values around the globe. Human aspirations are universal-for dignity, for freedom, for the opportunity to improve the lives of our families.
Let us recognize what unites us across borders and build on the strength of this blessed country. Let us embrace our history and our legacy. Let us not only define our values in words and carry them out in deeds.
That's Obama
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: Do you feel overwhelmed, Glass...?
yawn, yes i am overwhelmed with the urge to giggle and litht to the left...
these guys are trying like heck to figger out how to save the GOP in the next election...
they are afraid that the Diebold "fix" might not hold since the dems hired the BEST hacker in the world to "fix" the GOP hacker's "fix" Posted by Griffon on :
Glass, if you vote for a Republican, it's because you pull the wrong lever by accident.
That's fine by me. I'm a centrist that votes for the person, not the party. But not everyone can be that objective. For you someone pulls your strings and tells you who you will vote for, but the bottom line is, in your heart you are a Democrat just like me.
As to the trial by fire comment, I been there, and any time you want to come along, come right on ahead.
Posted by bdgee on :
"these guys are trying like heck to figger out how to save the GOP in the next election..."
You really want to grant that much thought to a couple of guys that are confused by the English language so much they can figure out what is said or what they say when they post it?
I'll cut out the parts that I don't see as over awarding to much to them:
"these guys are trying ................"
Posted by Griffon on :
"Yep, don't you remember what aragorn posted about his "assignment" to come to Allstock's "Off-Topic Post, Non Stock Talk" to overwhelm the non-christain talk."
Ah here's the real rub for you bdgee, you ran others off before, you pride your clique on being able to do that. But I won't leave. I will stay, nice, happy, Christian centrist. And I will post to challenge the left and the right. We will have a fun time you and I once you get to know me.
Posted by glassman on :
Glass, if you vote for a Republican, it's because you pull the wrong lever by accident.
i knew that if i told you it annoyed me you would try to use it over and over again... that is if you were here to annoy..
which you are ... LOL... centrist? bahhahahaha...
hey?
you wanna buy any poisonous snakes to play with?
i can get you cottonmouths...very dangerous and ornery, only for the devoutly faithful... or i can get you copperheads... for the beginner serpant handler..they are fairly safe if handled carefully.. 100$ each... i used to only charge 1$ when i was a kid, but hey, inflation and all that...
rattlers? i think you should ask bdgee for them....
Posted by bdgee on :
Griffon,
This idea that you are wanting to promote, that Glass.... operates as a puppet and follows someone elses lead, is way too far fetched for even one so slow as you to be fooled by.
It makes about as much sens as believing you are not a republican hack.
Posted by Griffon on :
"I'll cut out the parts that I don't see as over awarding to much to them:"
Translation: "Bdgee don't agree so bdgee just don't read."
That attitude sure helps you feel superior huh bdgee? Whatever helps you feel better, just stay in Plato's Cave where you don't have that nasty ole light illumining the real world.
Really since the truth came out about you all yesterday, I would think you would want to regroup and come up with a new strategy.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Why would he stop calling you a dem if you don't quit calling him a repub? Has nothing to do with irritation.
Posted by glassman on :
griffo, can't you just feel the power? Posted by bdgee on :
Awwww, pooooor Glass...
He is being put upon by the Jesus freaks.
I bet he feels so bad.
Probably went off to hide in the brair patch.
Posted by Griffon on :
Glass, it's not about annoying you. I don't set out to annoy people. It's simple, everything you say on this board is a Democrat's response. You were mad at me for days about the Carter-Saddam connection. You are still mad about the Clinton connection to genocide. These are simple historical facts but because they are perceived as inconvenient to Democrats, I'm a villain. Face it, you walk like a Democrat, you talk like a Democrat, you...are...a Democrat. Celebrate it, that's where I hope to return if we get a candidate that will apply a Human Rights based foreign policy.
And now that we are back to foreign policy, what problems do you have with my foreign policy idea?
Posted by Griffon on :
"He is being put upon by the Jesus freaks."
Funny thing bdgee, he can't be "put upon" by Jesus freaks, he chose to come into a place where he knew the conversation would include Christian worldview. He also knew he could leave at anytime. See what you're saying here is that we dragged him in to this thread and forced him to remain. How he responds to the conversation is entirely up to him.
He may feel inspired to post his own, deliberately non-Christian, non-Centrist thread. He's entirely capable of doing so. All this suggests, he cannot be put upon by Christians. Neither can you unless you choose to stay and be in dialog in a thread that is put forward by a Christian.
Posted by glassman on :
mad at you? LOL
i was mad at you one night for posting iranian news..
you are working out how to get people to vote a certain way; i understand that...
i am not...
i am interested in factual data tho...
if Bush had found the smallpox or real WMD's in Iraq? i would have been waving the flag with everybody else..
not only did he not find it? he refused to acknowledge this and a few other terrible errors for a long time...
i grew up around SERIOUS politics... you are a dillitente... the people i grew up around made their living (or not) on the vote... i am not serious about politics...
i am serious about the truth...
you are confused.. you wish to convince me that you have some access to some Universal Truth... you don't...
Posted by Griffon on :
"you are confused.. you wish to convince me that you have some access to some Universal Truth... you don't..."
Yes I do, but that's not the issue here.
"i was mad at you one night for posting iranian news.."
You refused to accept it for two days, Glass, called me names, said I deserved hate speech. History has always been written by the victors, but hearing from the perspective of our opponents helps us understand where they are coming from. What I suggest is we are caught up in a war we could have prevented on many levels. How we exit and how we comport our selves while there is important in assuring we never have to return for real and dubious "national interests."
"you are working out how to get people to vote a certain way; i understand that..."
Not at all, I am actually working for us to understand how we got to this point in history. That's why I discuss Iraq's history more than the present. This mess came from somewhere and I believe understanding that helps us in the long run.
It's why I go back to the genocides of the 1990s because there are instabilities that the world community needs to take care of to insure no such things occur again. The foreign policy statement I posted in several postings above is meant to not make the US shoulder all the action, but to say to the world community, "Hey, why is this happening? Do something."
Posted by glassman on :
Yes I do, but that's not the issue here.
i know what you think.... after that? you lose all credibility outside of your "circle"... sorry...
the questions remain unaswered...
Posted by Griffon on :
Now, the issue of my foreign policy. The crux of the whole thing is whether the Tel Aviv-Jerusalem corridor can sustain the traffic that is involved in International diplomacy. Financially, both Israel and the Palestinian Authority need that level of investment to sustain their populations.
It may be that somewhere in "the Corridor" is where the actual site needs to be, but the Jerusalem as open city threat could be enough to ally Jew and Muslim.
Posted by glassman on :
is that supposed to make sense?
Posted by Griffon on :
"is that supposed to make sense?"
yes
Posted by glassman on :
what does it mean? you want to put the UN in the Tel Aviv-Jerusalem corridor?
Posted by Griffon on :
Yep, remodelled, renovated whatever, but a different UN there in Jerusalem perfectly, but probably in the corridor. The mere suggestion might be enough to get the Israelis and Arabs to agree on one thing: they don't want the UN in Jerusalem.
Seriously though, the economic carrot might help pragmatic people on both sides to begin a more helpful dialog. Neither country can sustain the population without considerable aid. This suggestion might change that, get a huge aid burden off other countries shoulders. And it would take twenty or more years to acomplish. Jerusalem is a beautiful, ancient city that has given the world three great cultural gifts. If any city in the world should be open to all, it's Jerusalem.
Idealistic? Sure. But when I set goals, they're big.
Posted by bdgee on :
I think it is necessary to be of specific religious belief to believe that Jerusalem is anything special.
Of course, I understand that if you are of such a specific religion, you cannot imagine it being simply an old city.
That is an easy way to point out religious bigots. They are those who pronounce their personal religious beliefs surmount the belief of all others.
Posted by Griffon on :
You're right bdgee, that's why I describe myself as Judeo-Islamo-Christian. I do not see myself as one or the other. One is the root-stock of the others, another is the flowering and the last is the revelation. I genuinely see that you cannot have one without them all. Of course I am of a minority perspective, but that's okay.
Posted by bdgee on :
You already stated that you disagree when you describe Jerusalem as important because it "...has given the world three great cultural gifts" (those specific religions I mentioned).
Now you up and say that "I think it is necessary to be of specific religious belief to believe that Jerusalem is anything special" is true.
Or don't you see the contradiction?
Let me state my point more directly, so it will maybe be clearer.
When a person declares that "something" (person, idea, object, whatever) deserves special status in the world (or such) because it holds particular favor or status or meaning in the religion of his belief, he is declaring his religios preferences should hold force over others and has shown himself to be bigoted.
Also, I realize that that person isn't necessarilly able to recognize that bigotry in himself, but it isn't his ability to recognize it that makes it bigotry.
Posted by Griffon on :
"When a person declares that "something" (person, idea, object, whatever) deserves special status in the world (or such) because it holds particular favor or status or meaning in the religion of his belief, he is declaring his religios preferences should hold force over others and has shown himself to be bigoted."
I wasn't clear about why Jerusalem is picked. I do not suggest Jerusalem out of religious preference, but out of socio-political confluence. This one city, is the center of three main Western religions to be sure, but it also is the epicenter of a culture clash based in ethnicity, architecture and history. It's a fascinating place like no other place in the world and religion is only part of that. Just the sheer volume of antiquities from thousands of years ago that belong to everyone. What better place to build the UN than in a city that shows: Jewish, Arab, European, Egyptian, Asian and American influences?
But the real reason to suggest Jerusalem is the three cultural gifts to the world: Arab, Israeli and Palestinian societies and their mytho-poetic inspiration, that need our investment if the population already there and growing is to be supported. It may sound crazy, but because of the tensions between those cultures, primarily though not exclusively couched in inaccurate religious terms, Jerusalem's Temple Mount is the heart of the struggle between Arab and Israeli.
I am saying in effect, the UN at Jerusalem within 20 years and the potential for Israel and the Palestinian Authority to become viable economies through the investment in UN structures and sociologically this tends to lead to less population growth and greater resistance to war.
Look, it's not a perfect solution. It may not even seem very practical right now. But see it for what it is: a suggestion for more creative thinkers to build upon or discard. Maybe it's just a dream, but after all we cannot embody peace until we first begin to envision what peace can look like.
Posted by Griffon on :
"Jerusalem's Temple Mount is the heart of the struggle between Arab and Israeli."
I know this seems a gross over-simplification, or abject naivete, but Jerusalem is the lynch-pin to the whole Middle East conflict and at the "top of the world" is Temple Mount. If the threat of declaring it an open city can't unite Palestinian and Israeli in a campaign nothing will. But what if it worked? What if for a shining moment in history those two peoples could see the benefits and say okay?
Jerusalem as an open city could be the 'twin capitol' of Israel and Palestine. Its defense provided by UN forces as I mentioned above would reduce what is arguably Israel's most vulnerable defensive position, ringed as it is on three sides by Palestine.
I know it's unworkable at present, and maybe its time will never come. But silly as it is, when I presented it at an Inter-religious Concerns Conference in Ankara, Turkey last year, UN, Israeli and Palestinian representatives said it was a good starting point. Just being polite but you know the sun even shines on a dog's behind once in awhile.
Posted by bdgee on :
Do you not see that announcing that you do not single out Jerusalem as "special" out of religious preferences while simultaneously saying it is because it "... is the epicenter of a culture clash based in ethnicity, architecture and history" and failing to recognize that (1), your religious bent focuses you toward concern with Jerusalem and (2), it is only because its enjoys focus in the writings and tales of those three religions (i.e., it is highly advertised) that it "... is the epicenter of a culture clash..." caused by those three religions differing teachings (and preachings) on "ethnicity, architecture and history" is a prejudice?
It is clear you are singling out that city for preference because of religious preference. It is clear that you (whether or not you realize it), are declaring your religious preference should be dominate. I'm sorry, but THAT'S BIGOTRY and failure or unwillingness to recognize it as such is too.
n : a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own
and that just because an act is not recognized by its perpetrator as bigotry, does not make it be not bigotry.
Whenever ones feelings or ideas about the importance of a thing is influenced by religion, then bigotry is usually the result and too often that person either refuses or is not capable of recognizing the damage his prejudice causes.
Let me point to an example. Read http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigot for an example of where the prejudice if a simple single minded Christain, in ignorance and emboldened by his "choice" to believe his religious preferences outweighed all other's concerns, at least for almost a millennium, destroyed valuable information for the whole of mankind.
"Previously hidden writings of the ancient Greek mathematician Archimedes are being uncovered with powerful X-ray beams nearly 800 years after a Christian monk scrubbed off the text and wrote over it with prayers."
(And then there are the two greatest crimes of all human endeavor, the burning of the library in Alexandria and the burning of the library of the Axtecs.)
Posted by Sunnyside on :
Bdgee, are you saying that because Grif recognizes Jerusalem as an epicenter based on religion that his statement becomes bigoted? Or, are you saying that he identified Jerusalem's importance through his religion?
As far as I know, Jerusalem IS the epicenter for three religions and that IS what makes it an important piece of real estate.
Is that bigoted?
Posted by bdgee on :
YES!
Posted by Sunnyside on :
But, Bdgee, if bigotry is based on the intolerance of other ideas or opinions, I'd say that identifying Jerusalem as the epicenter of differing religions would negate the bigotry because it is inclusive of all those religions, rather than exclusive to one.
So, in essence, what I'm saying is that if I said I believed that Jerusalem was significant because of its Muslem origins, that would be bigoted. But saying that it is significant to all religions would not be bigoted.
And, I think that acknowledging Jerusalem as a religious epicenter is historical whether you believe in any religion or no religion.
Posted by glassman on :
the problem is not a place...
the problem is human nature...
if you study the history? you'll find that (according to western historians) Jerusalem was absorbed into Islam rather than being central to it...
now why is it that some kids don't wanna play with a toy until another kid gets it out of the toybox? Posted by Sunnyside on :
Yes, I understand the human nature part of what you're saying (although I was unaware of that historical info), but I guess I'm having difficulty with the bigotry part that Bdgee is expressing.
And, not to be argumentative.
Posted by glassman on :
bdgee like arguing dontcha bdgee? Posted by glassman on :
maybe this will "clear things up"? LOL
Laylat-ul Mi'raj (The Night of Mi'raj)
In Islam, the Prophet Muhammad's night journey from Mecca to Jerusalem prior to his famous trip to heaven is called Isra'. As alluded to in the Qur'an (17:1), a journey was made by a servant of God, in a single night, from the “sacred place of worship” (al-masjid al-haram) to the “further place of worship” (al-masjid al-aqsa).
Traditionally, there was general agreement that the servant of God was Muhammad and that the “sacred place of worship” was Mecca. Early commentators, however, interpreted the “further place of worship” as heaven, and the entire verse was considered a reference to the Prophet's ascension into heaven (Mi'raj), an ascension which also originated in Mecca. In the period of the Umayyad caliphate (661–750), the “further place of worship” was read as Jerusalem. The two versions were eventually reconciled by regarding the Isra' simply as the night journey and relocating the point of Muhammad's ascension from Mecca to Jerusalem to avoid confusion. Some commentators also suggested that the Isra' was a vision sent to Muhammad in his sleep and not an actual journey at all; but orthodox sentiment has emphatically preserved the physical, thus miraculous, nature of the trip.
The Isra' story, greatly elaborated by tradition, relates that Muhammad made the journey astride Buraq (q.v.), a mythical winged creature, in the company of the archangel Gabriel. Muhammad meets Abraham, Moses, and Jesus in Jerusalem; he then officiates as leader (imam) of the ritual prayer (salat) for all the prophets assembled and establishes his primacy among God's messengers. http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/myth/Miraj.html
some people just wanna hate, and some just wanna fight...
and some? just wanna take the other kids toys...
Posted by glassman on :
In Islamic legend, the ascension of the Prophet Muhammad into heaven. In this legend, Muhammad is prepared for his meeting with God by the archangels Jibril and Mikal one evening while he is asleep in the Ka'bah, the sacred shrine of Mecca. They open up his body and purify his heart by removing all traces of error, doubt, idolatry, and paganism and by filling it with wisdom and belief. In the original version of the mi'raj, the prophet is then transported by Jibril directly to the lowest heaven. But early in Muslim history the story of the ascension came to be associated with the story of Muhammad's night journey (isra') from the “sacred place of worship” (Mecca) to the “further place of worship” (Jerusalem). The two separate incidents were gradually combined so that chronologically the purification of Muhammad in his sleep begins the sequence; he is then transported in a single night from Mecca to Jerusalem by the winged mythical creature Buraq, and from Jerusalem he ascends to heaven, possibly by ladder (mi'raj), accompanied by Jibril.
hmmmm....
Posted by bdgee on :
Off hand, I can't think of a single "place" that has been so long in political (religious) contention or that has caused so so many wars or so many hundreds of thousands of people to be killed. (Maybe had not the Romans, wiped Carthage off the face of the Earth it might have been a rival for that honor.)
The desire to "claim" Jerusalem for "my" religion has left more homeless, more dead, more crippled, and mosre disallusioned, I am sure, than all of the natural desasters that have harassed mankind, ever.
It isn't even true that it is "the birthplace" of any of the three religions that want to claim it as such. What those tales actually do is serve as a means of justifying bigotry.
I say level it and never allow any structure to ever be built there again or any person to take up residence on the site. It worked with Carthage!
Posted by jordanreed on :
I've read and heard that more people have died ,in the name of religion, then in all other wars combined.. is this true?
Posted by glassman on :
you mean there are wars with out it JR?
Posted by Sunnyside on :
Thanks Glass. I always thought that THE religious center of Muslems was Mecca, but really didn't know that much of the history.
However, I do agree with Bdgee about Grif being a bigot. Although he gratuitously states "that's why I describe myself as Judeo-Islamo-Christian," and further states "I do not see myself as one or the other," but is a Christian minister. So, huh?
Additionally, as a non-Christian it is easy to hear Grif's self-righteous religious condescension. To me its akin to saying that Alcoholics Anonymous is non-sectarian when it really is Christian based. Not to say its bad, but it just is.
I think Grif has made the statement several times why anyone decides to read his thread and respond if they are so offended. He makes a point of saying he has free speech and can post whatever. I actually don't understand why he is here. He's not a trader and has absolutely no relation to this board. I also think that people become compelled to respond to his diatribes simply BECAUSE of their offensiveness. But, maybe that's just me.
Personally, I resent his constant religious quotes to attempt to substantiate his points, since he seems to take it for granted that we all have a similar religiously based belief system or, if not, we should. Because if we did, we would then agree with his political beliefs (which, I might add, are contradictory). He fails to demonstrate any ethno or religio-inclusiveness (I can make up my own too) since its all Christian based. And Bdgee would be correct there in stating you do not have to recognize your own bigotry to be a bigot.
I know that in my profession religion has to be a neutral subject so as not intrude with mine and thus alienate patients. Individuals' beliefs may be reinforced and supported as their own means of comfort, and that is how I believe you respect others' religious beliefs. Grif is not neutral.
I certainly didn't realize that we had a "conversion" thread on this message board, which each of his topics digresses into.
Posted by jordanreed on :
vietnam?.ww1..ww2??
were these religious??
Posted by jordanreed on :
quote:Originally posted by Sunnyside: Thanks Glass. I always thought that THE religious center of Muslems was Mecca, but really didn't know that much of the history.
However, I do agree with Bdgee about Grif being a bigot. Although he gratuitously states "that's why I describe myself as Judeo-Islamo-Christian," and further states "I do not see myself as one or the other," but is a Christian minister. So, huh?
Additionally, as a non-Christian it is easy to hear Grif's self-righteous religious condescension. To me its akin to saying that Alcoholics Anonymous is non-sectarian when it really is Christian based. Not to say its bad, but it just is.
I think Grif has made the statement several times why anyone decides to read his thread and respond if they are so offended. He makes a point of saying he has free speech and can post whatever. I actually don't understand why he is here. He's not a trader and has absolutely no relation to this board. I also think that people become compelled to respond to his diatribes simply BECAUSE of their offensiveness. But, maybe that's just me.
Personally, I resent his constant religious quotes to attempt to substantiate his points, since he seems to take it for granted that we all have a similar religiously based belief system or, if not, we should. Because if we did, we would then agree with his political beliefs (which, I might add, are contradictory). He fails to demonstrate any ethno or religio-inclusiveness (I can make up my own too) since its all Christian based. And Bdgee would be correct there in stating you do not have to recognize your own bigotry to be a bigot.
I know that in my profession religion has to be a neutral subject so as not intrude with mine and thus alienate patients. Individuals' beliefs may be reinforced and supported as their own means of comfort, and that is how I believe you respect others' religious beliefs. Grif is not neutral.
I certainly didn't realize that we had a "conversion" thread on this message board, which each of his topics digresses into.
nice!!
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by jordanreed: vietnam?.ww1..ww2??
were these religious??
no, you are correct, i'm sorry, i was being sarcastic again, and you didn't earn my sarcasm...
religion is used to rile up the suport tho..
the "godless commies" didn't use religion did they?
Posted by bdgee on :
Sunnyside,
Very well written! Not because I agree (though I certainly do), but because while reading it I was laughing so hard at its indirect truths. Its direct truths are a prize.
It has always been my feeling that failing to point out to religious bigots that they are such has the effect of not letting the people they are bigoted against see that they are not alone and, thereby, contributing to the bogotry.
Freedom of all kinds (and most particularly freedom of thought, that kind most esssential to happiness) needs openness so thrive. Almost all religiuous practice and dogma is like salt on the ground of free thought.
Posted by Griffon on :
"the problem is not a place... the problem is human nature..."
Exactly right Glass. Some on this thread make the mistake of assuming one way of thought, one belief system or another, makes one somehow better than others. Because as Paul put it: "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" and because I know this all too well, the anthropology I operate out of is this: we're all in the same boat, no one is better or worse than anyone else.
Since I have no intolerance of other people folks, you wasted alot of time and space on this oh so beautiful day. There is not an ounce of bigotry in me. Nuff said on a dead topic.
Back to the point of the thread, the central point of resolution for peace to be achieved in the Middle East is Jerusalem. The population density of the region, lack of natural resources including water, limited infrastructure, cultural controls, all amount to a continuing festering boil for Israeli and Palestinian alike. Having taken time to reflect on your statements about a character out of the Lord of the Rings, I think this thread needs to answer a question in the second movie as it relates to this question before us (bad segue, but who cares): "How did it come to this?"
This all goes back to the UN failing to do its job in 1947-8, but it was a war-weary, fledgling organization that wanted to go home. Sadly, the decisions they made on creating the state of Israel led to the Arab effort at that time, though other forces have come into play since then, to destroy Israel as an ethnicity, people group, identity. Israel was no saint in that process either at places like Deir Yaddin and Gisk (Jish?)(Check out Ilan Pappe's Book A History of Modern Palestine)
Now we find ourselves at the point where Israel is once again under attack and attacking, her very existence a question after Iran's recent statements. The UN has failed Israel and the US has been Israel's guarantor from those early days to the present. But we need to begin to forge a peace that will guarantee Israel's place and voice in the world community not just for a few more years but until the eschaton.
Likewise, Palestine has seen dos-possession of nearly all potable drinking water, ethnic cleansing campaigns, peace accords that were one-sided, etc, what has been sid above is true for Palestine as well except: UN and US both failed the Palestinian people. So finally, as Hamas and Hezbollah used Iran's money to build hospitals and schools, provide construction work and sanitation system, who do you think Palestinians trust? Where was the promised assistance we would offer? In Arafat's pocket and we let it happen.
The time has come for both parties to be dealt with fairly by the world community. We need to resolve the issue of land possession in Jerusalem once and for all because in the end, that is the only way the two sides will survive.
Posted by glassman on :
Exactly right Glass. Some on this thread make the mistake of assuming one way of thought, one belief system or another, makes one somehow better than others. Because as Paul put it: "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" and because I know this all too well, the anthropology I operate out of is this: we're all in the same boat, no one is better or worse than anyone else.
Since I have no intolerance of other people folks, you wasted alot of time and space on this oh so beautiful day. There is not an ounce of bigotry in me. Nuff said on a dead topi
not an ounce? you must be JESUS!
i must genuflect..
Posted by Leo on :
"Since I have no intolerance of other people folks, you wasted alot of time and space on this oh so beautiful day. There is not an ounce of bigotry in me. Nuff said on a dead topic."
Good Lord,...
Posted by glassman on :
griffon? the Palestinians have done little for themselves infrastructurally that i can see...
Arafat got a lot of cash... and kept it... the arab nations use Palestine as a poster child for Zionist oppression..
your idea of moving a major portion of UN there is not bad, but you'll find it much harder to accomplish than just wishing...
the Israelis have made the desert produce...
Posted by Griffon on :
One factor that people do not realize about war: it's never about religion. It's about land, property, power and glory. But as some of you have pointed out, leaders know that the average person will not war often over those things. On the other hand, if couched in mytho-poetic terms of nationalism and nation-state as religion or in religious terms, people will follow.
Remember in WWI the French charged into massacre after massacre because generals said, "If you have enough elan, bullets can't harm you." Is that a religious statement or a nationalistic statement? And consider the other side of expressing mytho-poetic fervor. In WWI British propogandists superimposed the image of a child over the image of a chicken that German soldiers were roasting over a fire, the implication being that German soldiers ate children.
In like fashion, Israel and Palestine have learned the fine art of mytho-poetic inspiration. So we hear the witness of one side that Jerusalem is the most important site in Judaism and the third most important site in all of Islam. All for a God who says to people who were carried into captivity, "Bloom where planted."
And yet Jerusalem has a certain attraction whoever holds the keys because for 3000 years and more it has mesmerized secular and religious, pious and impious. What a great city of the world! It would make a great seat for a new UN.
Posted by glassman on :
yep. especially if you are hoping Jesus is back...
not an ounce huh? you planning on settin' up shop over there griff?
Posted by T e x on :
"It would make a great seat for a new UN."
I LIKE that!
lol, Griff...sure you're not a closet Toltec?
Posted by glassman on :
One factor that people do not realize about war: it's never about religion
here we go again....
faith.. war is never about FAITH... religion? lots of wars about religion because religion is politics...
all war needs willing participants..
Posted by Griffon on :
The carrots of religion and nationalism are the articulated reasons for war: Power, money and glory are the real reasons Glass. Religion is not always political, though it often is. My argument is simply against the absolute. Not EVERY religious action is political and vice versa. I am suggesting people use religion for personal, political and nationalistic ends.
"all war needs willing participants.."
absolutely true, nationalism and religion become the way leaders articulate it to dress power, glory and wealth up in terms that offer a vision people get behind. Nationalistic fervor has become in the last 5-6 centuries a far more effective tool for manipulating the masses of the industrialized world. Just look at the Mexican-American and Spanish-American War. Or consider WWI and II. Patriotism almost takes on religious overtones especially in the Cold War.
It's not exactly new, nor is that absent from this war we are in. But to say religion is the root cause of war, and I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, misses the corruption of power, wealth and glory at the root. But that is only my understanding, flawed as I am, I only see dimly as in a mirror (though that Greek actually says "as in a riddle" which is an interesting image don't you think?"
Posted by bdgee on :
"There is not an ounce of bigotry in me."
Thank god I had a Franklin devise installed on the house before I read that!
I don't think god even likes a copy of a lie.
Posted by Griffon on :
Tex asked: "sure you're not a closet Toltec?"
LOL yeah Tex you uncovered me. What was the tip-off? Unfortunately, I don't have the hair left to go with their head-dresses. I love studying indigenous cultures, I love meeting the people.
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: Tex asked: "sure you're not a closet Toltec?"
LOL yeah Tex you uncovered me. What was the tip-off? Unfortunately, I don't have the hair left to go with their head-dresses. I love studying indigenous cultures, I love meeting the people.
nevermind...
"head-dresses"
Posted by Griffon on :
Have you ever sat in the home of an Arab Israeli person from Ibillin, Lower Galilee, Israel?
If not, you would find the meeting a great cross-cultural exchange. As you walk along the street, a person will invite you in for "cafe" which is Turkish grind spiced with cardamom. They smile warmly over the tiny thimble sized cup and in Arabic they offer their fruit or flatbread and tabouleh which is a delicious, fresh tasting salad of parsley, mint, bulgur, etc. The fruit will be citrus usually, and they will be surprised if you refuse a cigarette.
In Arabic culture, a guest is highly honored. If pastry is available, honey cakes usually, they will get that out. The Arab people are a thoroughly engaging culture. Our communication is not always linguistically perfect, after all we do not share the same primary language, but we manage.
In one instance, as I was sanding windows at the church on the school campus, one of my hosts stood on the cement below scolding me severely and I could not understand her at all. She grabbed one of the students, all of which learn English from 3rd grade on, told her something pointed at me and the girl said, "Get a hat! You're pink! and pink turns red!"
Arabs are humans too.
Posted by Griffon on :
Now in Tel Aviv, we sat at a coffee shop/internet bar, Mennachem and I. The coffee was more American-ized, meaning anemic. But we talked of hope for the future, as he prepared for college. His folks are friends from academic discussions about digs at Masada. He too will study archeology, but he is among the Jewish students who will study in Jordan.
We sat there, on February 27th, 2005, the week the knesset voted to release their 400 prisoners of war/hostages/political prisoners/terrorists, opinions vary. But what the world does not see in that decision is the annexation of more of the West Bank including 60% of the water access into the West Bank. Mennachem is crushed, his Arabic friends are outraged that they will have reduced access to water and he says, "Something terrible will happen." Almost as if to be an horrific exclamation point, the first of two terror bombings in response to the water shut off blew up about a block from where we sat less than half an hour later. Anybody ever get thirsty?
Posted by Griffon on :
What do these two youths have in common? One Arab Muslim, one Israeli Jew? Their worlds seem so far removed to see how they live. Both were tenagers. Both spoke at least three language. Both were connected to the growing peace movement that believes a two-state is the only path of survival. Both have died in the fighting of the last 1 & 1/2 years. Mennachem died in the explosion at the wedding party in Amman. The other, whose name I cannot mention because suicide is not acceptable in that culture, killed herself just after graduation because she would not be accepted to study at Hebrew University. The Arab quota was full.
Until we begin to see the full humanity of all persons, the sacred worth they embody, plows will get forged into guns and children will be forced to grow up too early.
Posted by bdgee on :
"Have you ever sat in the home of an Arab Israeli person from Ibillin, Lower Galilee, Israel?"
Well, I don't know if the town was Ibillin, but yeah, with that possible difference, I have.
So what?
Posted by Griffon on :
Good bdgee.
Posted by Griffon on :
Another Arab '48 student, Manal is an absolute genius in her school, graduated in May with plans to be a doctor. Her friend Rawan graduated as well in May with dreams of becoming a veterinary. Gifted, bright young girls, who will have to leave Israel to go to school.
Arab '48 is the younger generation's statement of ethnic identity, remembering where they came from, and acknowledging that Israel is their homeland. Their one request of their nation: equal rights. Sound familiar to our nation 40 and more years ago?
Arab Israeli students have the highest level of education of any Arab population in the Middle East. Why? Because of cooperating American Synagogues, Mosques and Churches working together with other charitable institutions to provide opportunity. Do you know what Amar, the Palestinian gardener, who is Muslim, said of America? He loves the Americans because their compassion helps his people and the school. He expressed dislike for: Arafat, Bush and Sharon. His definition of a good leader is one who shares in the sufferings of his people. In Amar's worldview women should not hold office, and with six children his wife has more than her hands full in Jenin.
Would it not be good if equality were not just an aspiration, but a confident reality because both peoples' were secure in their identities?
Posted by glassman on :
why is the education there the best? because it's Israel ... that's their heritage no matter who suports them... you are long winded...
go back and tell me why the Islamic scholars decided to add Jerusalem as the third most holy place... 500 words and i want to know why they needed to do it... not just some platitiude about Jerusalem being "speyeshuul"
tell me how a religion that places Jesus below the Prophet Mohamed can be accepted by a Methodist minister... it makes no sense... you are selling something to buy subservience...
quit braggin about the nice folks you met in your travels...
i've traveled too... met a lot of really nice strippers when i when i was in the military... some of them were working on degrees too......
Posted by Sunnyside on :
Grif you make me laugh with your one-sided agenda.
You speak as if the Arabs in Israel had it so good prior to the Jews immigrating. Those arabs lived in poverty in slums. Their rich Arab brethren could not care less about them then. The Jews rebuilt the old city where the arabs still live and have businesses. The Jews built Israel into a productive country and many, many arabs benefitted from that. Much more so than they did when their arab cousins over the borders couldn't care less about their living conditions or the direction of their lives or their education or medical care.
I've been there too. And not long after the '67 war. I saw their living conditions then and I've seen them change to the better because of the Jews. I've done business in the old city with the arabs, as do many Jews. I've had tea and nana with them. Chatted with Jewish and Arab Israelis alike. Big deal. You don't impress me in the least. And I don't buy your propagandist, bigotted sob stories.
As far as Jerusalem being an open city, well its only been an open city since the Jews won it in a war not of their own making. While in the hands of the arabs, that city was on lock down. Now its open to the world.
I still state that their arab cousins had not lifted a finger or spent one shekel on them in all their caring and concern. And closed their borders to those that wanted to return to their countries. You do realize that ALL the arabs in Israel are not originally from Israel? Not so-called Palestinians.
And, every time you say call it Palestine instead of Israel, you are showing your bigotry.
I was an idealistic bleeding heart. I was educated in bleeding heart, credentialled in bleeding heart, and am a bleeding heart by profession. However, because of the reality of human nature and what I've learned in my travels and work, I am proud to say that I am a recovering bleeding heart. I'd rather deal in reality, even if it isn't pretty. Sometimes the truth just ain't pretty. But, without reality you can't even begin to help people. Dreams and hypothetical situations are just that... dreams and fantasies.
I don't see you as anything more than a blow hard trying to prove a point with endless sermons and propagandist tales.
Why are you really trying to exploit the freedom of this forum?
Posted by bdgee on :
Sunnyside,
He's not trying to prove anything except how big an ass he can be and to make excuses for the failed policies of the Administration.
In all matters where differing parties have opposing "solutions" or goals, physical confrontaation is the result of failed diplomacy. One guaranteed way to fail in diplomacy is to refuse to participate.
You cannot, in honesty, refuse to play the game then make up for your refusal to participate by spinning voluminous false tales of success. I woulda..., coulda..., shoulda... just doesn't cut the mustard.
In order to win a baseball game you have to have the guts to take your time at bat (unless, of course, you are an American League pitcher).
Posted by Griffon on :
"You speak as if the Arabs in Israel had it so good prior to the Jews immigrating. Those arabs lived in poverty in slums."
Exactly right Sunnyside. I never talked about their living conditions, did I? And the children I work with would never have Israel become an Arab state. But the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza have a different perspective don't they?
"Chatted with Jewish and Arab Israelis alike. Big deal. You don't impress me in the least. And I don't buy your propagandist, bigotted sob stories."
Lived with Arabs and Jewish Israelis alike. How about you? As to their nationality and religion, it's funny how as I lectured in classes with Jew, Muslim, Druze and Christian, we did not quibble about who was what religion. As we sat around tables we did not care that two were Arab 48, two were Jewish Israeli, one was Palestinian and one was American. We could see humanity in each other. The mix of Jewish and Arabic names should have helped you see that. Mennachem is not Arabic, nor are his parents names, Mosha and Golda.
"As far as Jerusalem being an open city, well its only been an open city since the Jews won it in a war not of their own making. While in the hands of the arabs, that city was on lock down. Now its open to the world."
Wrong type of open city Sunny. I am talking about a totally neutral city, devoid of nationality, not open to everyone. Course that too is a myth. Try being an Arab 75 year old man going to the Al Aqsa Mosque for Friday prayers when the wrong soldier is guarding at Temple Mount.
"And, every time you say call it Palestine instead of Israel, you are showing your bigotry."
Nope, I have no bigotry. Nuff said but to elaborate: I call the region Israel/Palestine, never Palestine. I call the area settled in 1948 treaty as Israel: Israel. I call the Occupied Territories Palestinian Authority as per UN convention following Oslo.
If I refer to Palestinians, I am refering to those whose home is in the PA as set out in the UN. If I refer to Arab Israelis or Arab 48 I am refering to those Israelis who have to identify themselves with a 2 or with 8 stars on their identity cards as a symbol of Israel's second class of persons.
"I'd rather deal in reality, even if it isn't pretty. Sometimes the truth just ain't pretty. But, without reality you can't even begin to help people."
So please tell me: how is it refusing to deal with reality when I see children eating rats in Ramallah?
Posted by Sunnyside on :
Grif, I'm not in a competition with you. But, yes, I lived there for quite a few months. I've called you out on your differentiating between Arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis in one of your past sermons/lectures. So let's not pretend now. You can dress it up however you like, but it still stinks. All of it.
I don't particularly care for you. I find it a little more than disturbingly interesting that a minister, a man supposedly bursting of love for humanity, has not even been able to make a friend here. Why is it that no one, besides you, is sensing that love and alloneuniversalhug?
I see that you have no plan to leave this board but I still don't understand your purpose here. Frankly, I don't trust your motives. Something just isn't right here.
Posted by Griffon on :
"You can dress it up however you like, but it still stinks. All of it."
Sorry that my desire for both peoples will have peace offends you. You misunderstand my feelings for Judaism and Islam because you made a judgment after one post, and call me a bigot.
If you read my lengthy posts, you also see that I say this is not a one sided affair. In fact if you read my posts you would see I never believe one side or the other is absolutely to blame in any conflict around the world. I simply don't believe conflict works that way. For instance, I mentioned looking down from near the Golan and seeing why Israel must have a presence. I spoke of Gaza and said I see why Israel has legitimate security concerns. I spoke of seeing Jerusalem surrounded on three sides by the PA. I blame poor, poor planning by the UN in not doing justice to Israeli and Palestinain alike in the hasty decision they made and the enthnic cleansing of Israel and the genocidal efforts of the Arabs in those early years as having come home to roost. I does stink, you're right, but not because of what I wrote. It stinks because of the reality two people groups, two ethnicities that had leaders willing to work together, instead followed leaders too short-sighted to do anything but hate. Now we are in real danger with Iran shooting its mouth off, of losing one or both ethnicities.
"I don't particularly care for you."
I know, and that saddens me because you do matter, and what you think matters to me. If it didn't I wouldn't be on these threads when I have a thesis proposal to finish. I could just tell you all to buy the book and make money off it. I prefer the free exchange of ideas, no matter how much they conflict with mine. To me, agreement or disagreement doesn't determine your worth.
"I find it a little more than disturbingly interesting that a minister, a man supposedly bursting of love for humanity, has not even been able to make a friend here. Why is it that no one, besides you, is sensing that love and alloneuniversalhug?"
Religion/faith is my topic. Human Rights based foreign policy is my second topic. The prophetic role is not to be popular, but to faithfully show forth God's message of justice and mercy for all people. Those are controvercial issues, and we argue over the worldview of how that is accomplished. Sunny, the video you asked me to watch demonstrated that you despise me. That's okay, in my eyes as God makes me able to grow, you are of sacred worth. I don't know you from beans (an Iowa hay-seed expression, not an insulting comparison) but whatever your religious, political and social beliefs, regardless of age, gender, ethnicity, or any other descriptor we use to divide people, you matter and your opinions matter to me.
"has not even been able to make a friend here."
Yeah, it's hard to break in to a clique. Don't worry friends are coming. I am used to bringing an unpopular message, controvercial. Prophets are always considered offensive, few of us want the role, but the love of God for the poor compels us. What do I want for Israel? I want Israel to be safe and strong. I want children in Tel Aviv to never have to witness the carnage of twisted metal I saw in '05. I want Israel's economy to become so strong they can tell the US they need no more aid. What do I want for the Palestinian Authority? I want them to stand against the lawless terrorists that have stolen that peoples' heritage to be run to ground so they kill neither Israeli or Palestinian in their villainy again. And I want them to develop infrastructure, education and medical facilities. I want their children to be able to eat better food and clean water. And for both I want them to each have a place to call home.
"Something just isn't right here"
You're right, but that's not my doing.
Posted by bdgee on :
Griffon, you are an arrogant and ignorant pain in the butt is why you can't make friends.
Posted by Griffon on :
Hey all, check out the Jerusalem Times Op-Ed page article "Beyond the News" by IPCRI co-director Gershan Baskin. Fascinaing take on the conflict. Usually his Palestinian partner Hanna Sinora presents on Monday or Tuesday. Great stuff. Both advocate for a two-state solution.
Posted by jordanreed on :
griff says....."Prophets are always considered offensive, few of us want the role,"
so now you consider yourself a prophet... delusions of grandeur ...
dont bother to answer.. I know what you'll say
Posted by glassman on :
you nailed it JR....
the men in the white suits are triangulating as we speak....
Posted by jordanreed on :
pre·ten·tious [ pri ténshəss ]
adjective
Definition:
1. self-important and affected: acting as though more important or special than is warranted, or appearing to have an unrealistically high self-image
2. made to look or sound important: intended to seem to have a special quality or significance, but often seeming forced or overly clever dismissed it as yet another pretentious film
3. ostentatious: extravagantly and consciously showy or glamorous
Posted by jordanreed on :
know-it-all (plural know-it-alls)
noun
Definition:
somebody claiming to know everything: somebody who professes to know more or better than anyone else about everything ( informal )
Posted by jordanreed on :
bore [ bawr ]
transitive verb (past and past participle bored, present participle bor·ing, 3rd person present singular bores)
Definition:
make somebody uninterested: to make somebody lose interest and so feel tired and annoyed He bored us stiff with a detailed explanation of the itinerary for his vacation.
Posted by Sunnyside on :
Narcissistic Personality Disorder
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
requires excessive admiration
has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
Posted by Griffon on :
Found it Glass and it is a nice story, it makes a convenient justification for something else too, and I see your point, but Jerusalem was in Muslim possession for roughly 1100 years give or take as we account for the Crusades.
The mytho-poetry as you said, grew up after to make it a holy shrine, but to use that as the justification for Israel's sole possession of Temple Mount is like saying the Hagia Sofia should be restored to Christian condition after not as many years as a Muslim mosque. It has passed into usage and undoing it furthers resentment already festering. That is not to say we should do nothing.
This is the reason I strive to demystify history. Mytho-poetic historiography, the hyperbolic manipulation of history to reflect current situations of possession, power and justice issues, is deadly to peace-building if it is not named, claimed and dealt with. Is it fair? No. Temple Mount was lost to Jewish people be invaders many times in history and the great power of God brought them to this point. I do not have the belief system of Christianity that says Israel must rebuild the Temple and all that dispensationalist theology.
But even then, I think Israel is far better served to let Muhammed's ascension be celebrated. The minute Islamo-facists start to believe it's false, they will blow Jerusalem up with a nuke. Listen to the news out of Iran and Syria today, and that is a real desire of those regimes. They want the land back and they hate the Jewish ethnicity.
Posted by Griffon on :
Now, you might be inclined to say something like, "It's a religion thing, but the truth embedded in the Qu'ran is that Jews and Christians are "people of the Book." The religion is not to be assulted. However, political leaders of Islam, which by the way IS a political religion in that the state and religion are inseparable as far as the Qu'ran and other materials are concerned, know how Palestine was lost and avow Israel's destruction.
It is not an issue of religion, nor do they articulate it as such very often. It's about ethnicity and property. If it becomes obvious Temple Mount is to change or become unavailable, Iran would blow it up as I understand their rhetoric.
It's really quite ridiculous on the part of these three monotheistic religions to fall for that idea of the land being an important part of our identity, because each of the religions has the understanding of "bloom where planted" in their theology. The place of worship isn't as important as the worship. But people are like elephants this way: when under stress we like to retreat to the familiar, old bones, pick them up, hold them, remembering what has been and dreaming of what could be again.
Even if, as Glass very well-researched and presented. No doubt on-line? Thanks for that point Glass and I hope I actually answered what you were asking.
Posted by glassman on :
But even then, I think Israel is far better served to let Muhammed's ascension be celebrated. The minute Islamo-facists start to believe it's false, they will blow Jerusalem up with a nuke. Listen to the news out of Iran and Syria today, and that is a real desire of those regimes. They want the land back and they hate the Jewish ethnicity.
d'oh? you mean we have to kill the Iranians? glad we agree .... been waiting awhile for the green light...
Posted by glassman on :
However, political leaders of Islam, which by the way IS a political religion in that the state and religion are inseparable as far as the Qu'ran and other materials are concerned, know how Palestine was lost and avow Israel's destruction.
all religion is political... the question is will you allow it to be a State Religion or not...
Posted by glassman on :
Even if, as Glass very well-researched and presented. No doubt on-line? Thanks for that point Glass and I hope I actually answered what you were aski
you mean we are like elephants because they pick up old bones? i disagree...
some people just have to take each others toys...
people are mean...
some people just need killin'....
Posted by Griffon on :
You despise me, and yet you follow me around like little sheep. You are free to leave this thread and yet you remain; free to start other threads, but you persist in following me around, quaint but utterly unnecessary. You must struggle with OCD, but the thread calls for a different topic than amateurish psychological efforts on your parts.
He is a three time Nobel Peace Prize nominee and recipient of the Niwano and World Methodist Peace Awards. But he grew out of less auspicious experiences. Elias Chacour was born in 1940 in Biram, Lower Galilee of the British Mandate of Palestine. It was a pastoral life in Lower Galilee and until 1947 Elias remembers climbing the olive tree in the front yard, tracing the shapes of bark with tiny fingers. But events were erupting around the world that would turn pastoral Galilee into turmoil. It was turmoil so severe that little Elias would not escape it. Exciting news came in 1947 when Michael Chacour, Elias’ father, came home and called the family together. They would soon have special company. They would celebrate with a lamb! A lamb! Michael and his family grew up in the Melkite, or Greek Catholic, Church, and were deeply spiritual Christians. They planned to kill the lamb to celebrate new neighbors, called Zionists, who would arrive shortly. In an interview Abuna Elias Chacour credited his father’s Christian resolve to forgive with shaping his personal work for peace. Michael explains to his family that the Zionists need a safe place to heal after the horrible tragedy visited upon the Jewish people during World War II. And so soldiers came, they celebrated, and a year passed. May 15, 1948, saw the transition from Palestine to Israel and hundreds of thousands of Palestinians became refugees. It was not until the summer of 1949 that Michael Chacour’s belief in the fellowship Arab and Jew should share would be shaken. The residents of Biram were told to leave; the Chacours became refugees. But perhaps the most traumatic occurrence in Elias Chacour’s early childhood happened after the residents of Biram were forced out of their homes. They settled in the abandoned town of Gish, a town of Palestinian Christians that was strangely empty. No one knew where the inhabitants went until the Biram boys were playing soccer one day and they found a hand sticking up from what was to be called a mass grave. The residents of Gish had been found. Sadly, this would not be Elias Chacour’s last brush with atrocity and/or war crimes. In fact within the same summer, the Israeli Defense Force gathered the men and older boys up and dropped them unceremoniously over the border with Jordan. They would be reunited but not before Michael, with Elias’ three brothers, Rusah, Musah and Chacour, journeyed through Jordan and Syria to get back home. It was a trip in which Michael learned what Arab brothers and sisters thought of “dirty Palestinians.
Posted by glassman on :
You despise me, and yet you follow me around like little sheep. You are free to leave this thread and yet you remain; free to start other threads, but you persist in following me around, quaint but utterly unnecessary. You must struggle with OCD, but the thread calls for a different topic than amateurish psychological efforts on your parts.
but we are here to help you groffon... and i most definitely don't despise you...
i am concerned that you are allowed to vote tho Posted by Griffon on :
Believe what you want Glass I would have a different answer to what you said:
"you mean we have to kill the Iranians?"
No
"all religion is political... the question is will you allow it to be a State Religion or not..."
No
"some people just need killin'...."
Posted by Griffon on :
Following several other trials the Biram villagers win a victory in the Israeli Supreme Court in December of 1951. The troops are ordered to give the town back to the citizens. They are invited to return to Biram on December 25. As the villagers drawn near, reaching the hilltops around the village, Israeli soldiers open fire with tanks and cannons, leveling Biram. To this day, Abuna Chacour seems most relaxed when he visits the ruins of Biram. Elias must hear this news in Haifa where the Bishop has placed him in school. Michael’s prayer in the situation was: “Forgive them.” More than ever Elias longs for the solitary time with God. Elias and Faraj meet when school resumes in fall, 1952 and they become lifelong friends. He describes this time in a chapter called “The Narrowing Way.” Both boys would be sent to a “minor” seminary in Nazareth, called St. Joseph’s, after all they were 13 or 14 at the time. Unfortunately, Elias and Faraj did not see any opportunity to go to the university which did not take “their kind.” Nazareth marked a renewal of spirituality for Elias as opportunities for solitude presented themselves. God shaped him through his time at the minor seminary, increasing his awareness of a wider world in need of help. He would later write, “Being a servant of God meant more than drifting above the Earth’s struggles in an other-worldly realm like some pale figure in an icon.” Faraj and Elias would spend their high school years at St. Joseph’s and while it was a good experience, they received disappointing news: the Melkite seminary in the Jordanian section of Jerusalem would not accept “dirty Palestinians.” How can one serve God when the world closes doors? But the Bishop arranged for them to enter seminary at St. Sulpice in Paris. This would be a time of discernment and growth for Elias and Faraj. Neither had been outside the Galilee before. Once in Paris, they learned a great deal, while contending with unfortunate stereotypes. It should come as no surprise that dispossessed people in the Middle East would be de-humanized through stereotypes in much the same way minorities throughout the world have been. The dispossessed fare no better in the United States. The sentiments expressed by Abuna were followed up with a comment about Western Christianity. “We Palestinians may be materially poor but we are spiritually rich. The Western Church is materially prosperous but spiritually bankrupt.”
Posted by Griffon on :
Nothin better than good grilled peppers and steak. To continue with who now Archbishop Elias Chacour is:
The theology that Elias learned would be put to the test in 1965 as he and Faraj graduated. By this time, Elias Chacour came to see the Beatitudes in light of Isaiah’s joining of righteousness and justice. These thoughts were echoing in his mind as he arrived at the Melkite Church in Ibillin. On his arrival, “The Responsible” met him at the door, greeting him with, “Go away! We don’t want you here!” Thus began what is now 40 years of ministry in this village.
Truly Abuna’s first opportunity to work for reconciliation began in his church. Brothers would not speak to each other, threatened each others’ lives. The church was broken down, the Christian community shattered between Melkite, Orthodox and Catholic. Then an idea formed for one very important Palm Sunday. He locked the door of the sanctuary and refused to let the congregation leave until they were reconciled. The same year Abuna Chacour begins more education, this time at Hebrew University, where he finds support and nurture.
The ploy of the locked doors worked and ignited such passion that the church was transformed. That transformation spread throughout the town. His ministry grows and thrives with the arrival and support of Bishop Raya. Bishop Raya also nurtures a seed that has been growing in Abuna Chacour’s heart for a long time: education for Arab/Palestinian children, youth and adults. In 1968 the Mariam Bawardi Kindergarten starts using Abuna’s bedroom and kitchen. Where does Elias sleep? In his yellow Volkswagon!
On August 13, 1972, Abuna Chacour coordinates a march into Jerusalem using the same path as the 1967 Victory parade. Persons from Hebrew University, Muslim, Druze, Christian and Jewish supporters participate meeting and they meet at the Knesset with other supporters. It took months to plan and led to Abuna taking a vacation in Europe. While there he met with the Pax Christi and Princess Beatrix.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
All right, all right , all right already I give.
I told Griff there was no way he could get you guys to go an entire weekend without creating a new Bush Bashing topic, and that he could not get you distracted enough to not comment on the Current Bush threads less than 3 times throughout the weekend. I could not post because it would be too easy for me to bait you. Well I'm throwing in the towel.
You guys dived off the cliff head first.
Posted by Griffon on :
I know, wasn't that pretty much letter perfect predictability, bro Could have called that from 150 miles away, which I guess I did. Course it means I'm a whole bunch of obnoxious names to these folks, but you know, Bush and Clinton, neither of them found their way into a new thread. Is that cool or what? I told you: peace-building sometimes begins with getting them to hate something else more, shifting the focus of their rage.
You know, bro' I been laughing all weekend about this. I was starting to break down a few times nearly telling them, but in the end had to see if I still had it. Boy howdy, and I thought I should have "guppy" stamped on MY forehead. LOL, LOL, oh just a good gut ole laugh inserted here folks.
First the bait: I'm looking forward to having the next two days, just as innocent as could be.
Then the distraction: political thread, religious thread and the throw away "Peace-building" topic.
Now the fun: all the insults, the amateur psychology. This was a blast y'all. We must do this again sometime. Thanks for being such good sports.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Johnwayne: All right, all right , all right already I give.
I told Griff there was no way he could get you guys to go an entire weekend without creating a new Bush Bashing topic, and that he could not get you distracted enough to not comment on the Current Bush threads less than 3 times throughout the weekend. I could not post because it would be too easy for me to bait you. Well I'm throwing in the towel.
You guys dived off the cliff head first.
really? you must a be worse judge of character than your brother then, quite an accomplishment....
Posted by T e x on :
"yet you follow me around like little sheep."
oops...
Posted by glassman on :
Is that cool or what? I told you: peace-building sometimes begins with getting them to hate something else more, shifting the focus of their rage
egocentrism... we've been observing your ravings and wondering how long before the men in white suits arrive....
Posted by Griffon on :
LOL, I'll be happy to see those nice young men in their strait white coats and they're coming to...laugh with us too.
Posted by jordanreed on :
how very christian of you...
Posted by glassman on :
Now the fun: all the insults, the amateur psychology. This was a blast y'all. We must do this again sometime. Thanks for being such good sports. your chuckles sound hollow coming from that closet griffo...
Posted by jordanreed on :
hyp·o·crite [ híppə krìt ] (plural hyp·o·crites)
noun
Definition:
somebody feigning high principles: somebody who pretends to have admirable principles, beliefs, or feelings but behaves otherwise
Posted by jordanreed on :
dig a hole..
Posted by glassman on :
oh, it's worse than that JR...
the simple truth is that i hit a very raw nerve...
i could care less about peoples sexual orientation...
but?
Posted by T e x on :
Sunnyside posts pretty strong...
Posted by jordanreed on :
quote:Originally posted by T e x: Sunnyside posts pretty strong...
hit the nail smack,dead center...
Posted by Griffon on :
All in good clean fun! You all were so determined, you walked past every hint, into every minefield. And what was the harm, except a few spilled beers if I remember one of your posts.
Posted by jordanreed on :
griff...your butt checks are so tightly clenched,i sincerely doubt that you would ever allow yourself to have any fun.
and, IF i am wrong, and you are having fun at other peoples expense,well, thats not at all a noble practice.
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: All in good clean fun! You all were so determined, you walked past every hint, into every minefield. And what was the harm, except a few spilled beers if I remember one of your posts.
QUICK--THROW AWAY THE SHOVEL!
Posted by Griffon on :
"somebody feigning high principles: somebody who pretends to have admirable principles, beliefs, or feelings but behaves otherwise"
Oh the principles are there, and the behavior's there, but a good ole fashioned practical joke was what we all needed to lighten up. Coulda cut the air in these boards with a knife. Now it's all fun. and no one got hurt, all the taunts you directed at me are par for the course, given the prank. No harm no foul.
Posted by glassman on :
oh i could care less about your childish bets...
i read your posts cuz because i am lookin' for something specific...
too bad it isn't there...
i did challenge you early on griffo, and you do remeber cusz you referenced it...
never let on that you don't know what they so desparately want you to know... yuo'lllet tehm down and they'll do bad things to you...
gordon bennett took the weekend off so the bet is kindof lame anyway... he's the real force behind the Bush posts...
the bet just demonstrates why the church is screwed up anyway... politics and religion?you think what we want you to think..cuz we don't friggin know any more than you do....
Posted by jordanreed on :
no prank...you were quite serious...
re; above post..
hows that snuff addiction??..lol
Posted by glassman on :
Oh the principles are there, and the behavior's there,this is very true,
and it's telling... very telling.. you do realise the difference between there, and here dontchaa? Posted by Griffon on :
"you are having fun at other peoples expense,well, thats not at all a noble practice."
What expense? What are you out? You take this way too seriously Jordan, if you're not going to see the humor in this. I'm tense? I'm tense? You guys were ready to jump down my throat like you'd been unleashed to have at me.
I mean take a look, you argued with me on two threads all weekend long, cursed me, labelled me, everything else and here I was saying: "You are welcome to start other threads. You are welcome to post elsewhere. Oh this is some fun. Oh you'll find out what I'm up to soon." Did I not give you adequate opportunities to exit those two threads? You could have proved bro' right, but you just couldn't pull the trigger.
Not my fault you hung around. I predicted you would but you made the decision. If nothing else gang, you all got to vent for a whole weekend on "the preacher." I think we're pretty much even and what are you out? I presented truth as I understand it, you called me names. All in all a pretty normal weekend for us. What was so new about any of that?
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Johnwayne: All right, all right , all right already I give.
I told Griff there was no way he could get you guys to go an entire weekend without creating a new Bush Bashing topic, and that he could not get you distracted enough to not comment on the Current Bush threads less than 3 times throughout the weekend. I could not post because it would be too easy for me to bait you. Well I'm throwing in the towel.
You guys dived off the cliff head first.
Grifon, by his lonesome, is about as good a "thread" on the evils of the shrubbery as exists.
Posted by jordanreed on :
hung around?
i played 18 this morning..(shot 73)
played sax at a wedding reception from 1-3
planted 4 rose bushes in my yard..
bbq'd a pork roast..tonite
and still had time to laugh at you a little
you dont enthrall me much other than some comic relief..
kinda like dweeebyy did... you're in swell company kid
Posted by glassman on :
Not my fault you hung around. strange attitude...
you have no business "tending souls"
i do beleive i accused you of being the problem awhile back...
i was right...
Posted by Griffon on :
"the bet just demonstrates why the church is screwed up anyway..."
since there was no bet, this is just plain funny
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: "the bet just demonstrates why the church is screwed up anyway..."
since there was no bet, this is just plain funny
quote:Originally posted by Johnwayne: All right, all right , all right already I give.
I told Griff there was no way he could get you guys to go an entire weekend without creating a new Bush Bashing topic, and that he could not get you distracted enough to not comment on the Current Bush threads less than 3 times throughout the weekend. I could not post because it would be too easy for me to bait you. Well I'm throwing in the towel.
You guys dived off the cliff head first.
then why did JW "throw in the towel"?
Posted by Griffon on :
"i did challenge you early on griffo, and you do remeber cusz you referenced it..."
yes and I commended you for that.
"you have no business "tending souls""
This from someone who wants to kill some of them. You're mad cause you fell for it Glass. It didn't change the way we related, in no way was anyone hurt, though you all were a bit more insulting to me than usual, it all rolls off the marble head. So come on, back to business as usual.
Posted by jordanreed on :
now you're just lying and we all know it..
Posted by bdgee on :
These two like to cover their butts by claiming "other" intents when they show their ass. I isn't like they had any lack of hypocracy.
Posted by glassman on :
"you have no business "tending souls""
"This from someone who wants to kill some of them You're mad cause you fell for it Glass. It didn't change the way we related,"
oh i don't WANT to kill anybody...
and i am not capable of killing a soul... just a body...
you are morons, and if a church is paying you? they deserve what they are getting...
Posted by jordanreed on :
for a preacherman ,,you sure cant seem to foster any peace and love and harmony...
not very encouraging for any sort of flock
Posted by jordanreed on :
careful...he's gonna blow!
Posted by Griffon on :
Nah, just go back and look bdgee at all the times I invited you to leave and you got so agitated. "You don't own these threads...blah,blah, blah, yada, yada, yada." It was a gas. And Jordan the Baba the Silent, that was funny too. Do you think we don't read about the quacks in undergrad religious studies? But you persisted on that one, and I let you drone on and on. Did it ever occur to you that I remembered our first encounter when you said, "Oh your religious, you have no credibility with me."
What is that song, "Life is a highway, I wanna ride it all night long? If you're going my way...."
Posted by Griffon on :
Yes, I am about ready to bust a gut. You guys are so mad about a joke, this is too funny. You take it all way too seriously, course I told you that all weekend.
Posted by jordanreed on :
Oh your religious, you have no credibility with me."
so very true...no cred, none at all..
hypocrite is what you are...
feigning love and peace but creating the opposite...
if i felt anything for you?..it would be pity..
but more pity to your flock of sheep...
you are soo very,very sad...
Posted by glassman on :
the quacks in undergrad religious studies?
here's the sad truth you bozo...
Bush? he believes he's imminentizing the eschaton... the BAD one... you need to get off your azz and figure out what's really going on...
Posted by jordanreed on :
quote:Originally posted by jordanreed: griff...your butt checks are so tightly clenched,i sincerely doubt that you would ever allow yourself to have any fun.
and, IF i am wrong, and you are having fun at other peoples expense,well, thats not at all a noble practice.
bump
Posted by bdgee on :
hahahaha
What an idiot.
Again I point out that you are not empowered to declare who can and can't post on thses threads, in spite of your claims to the contrary.
Noting how many people have invited you to leave the board, why haven't you left.
As for you repeated claims of intellegence, I wonder if that isn't the claim of a dog that barks all night long.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: Yes, I am about ready to bust a gut. You guys are so mad about a joke, this is too funny. You take it all way too seriously, course I told you that all weekend.
you jest?
Iran: Eliminate Israel to end conflict
Thursday 03 August 2006, 23:02 Makka Time, 20:02 GMT
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has said the solution to end the conflict in Lebanon was the "elimination of the Zionist regime".
Attending a summit of Muslim nations in Malaysia, Iran's president said: "The real cure for the conflict is the elimination of the Zionist regime, but there should be an immediate ceasefire first.
this is from al-jazeera.... straight from the devils mouth, "so to speak"
and you are jesting?
Posted by Griffon on :
Glass you've been Roved. Bush is not the problem. He's worse than a lame duck, the RNC has told all candidates to stop defending him, to not ally themselves with him, he's done. Congress is what matters now, in '06 and they have to insist as Iraq slips into Civil War that they at least vote on whether the troops stay. The eschaton will not happen on Bush's watch, and if it does he will not initiate it. The mistake, the very real mistake the Democrats are making is continuing the attacks on Bush instead of focusing on issues in the constituencies from which they are elected. If candidates will grab onto these Religious Left preachers like me, the Dems will retake the House. The Senate is possible but dicey.
Posted by Griffon on :
"you jest?"
yes but not about Iran.
Posted by glassman on :
Glass you've been Roved. Bush is not the problem. He's worse than a lame duck, the RNC has told all candidates to stop defending him, to not ally themselves with him, he's done.
LOL...you really are lame...
watch Leiberman.....
Gallup: Lieberman Now More Popular With Republicans Than Democrats
By E&P Staff
Published: August 04, 2006 9:10 AM ET
NEW YORK The much-watched Democratic primary election in Connecticut is just four days away, and today Gallup has come out with a poll that finds incumbent Sen. Joseph Lieberman with his lowest ratings ever. "As a result," a Gallup report released this morning relates, "he is now more popular with Republicans than with supporters of his own party," surely not a good sign. Posted by Griffon on :
You're right er ah correct. Lieberman's closing the gap isn't he?
"you really are lame..."
No that happened Friday. The RNC told the candidates not to rely on Bush. The Dems have a huge chance to take back the House.
Posted by bdgee on :
"Bush is not the problem. ...the RNC has told all candidates to stop defending him"
So, now you are admitting you get these lines of crap directly from the RNC.
And you are fool enough to imagine we can't see you following the party line talking points and trying to get democrats to target something secondary?
Wouldn't it be best to aim that campaign at some democrats?
Posted by Griffon on :
Ah, with Reps, not Dems. I read the poll wrong
Posted by Griffon on :
"And you are fool enough to imagine we can't see you following the party line talking points and trying to get democrats to target something secondary?"
Well since CNN announced it, and it came from the RNC, I did get it secondarily from the RNC. Oh no, I'm a secondary dispensationalist, post-millenial, non-tribulationalist Religious leftie, oh I give up figuring out what I am anymore, just help the poor.
Posted by glassman on :
griff... if you guys (dems) split up like this? the GOP will win again.. under normal circumstances? i would be laughing...
i am a GOP... these are not normal circumstances tho...
this country needs the Dems to take the house or the senate...one or the other, for the good of the country... i would prefer the House... but the senate would be fine..not both tho... Posted by bdgee on :
Glass...,
YES!
The Constitution is in danger!
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Lighten up Francis. You guys are getting wound up at a little fun, and he's the one with clenched butt cheeks?
If you can't laugh at yourselves once in a while, than I pity all of you.
Glass I thought you of all here would see the humor in it.
Posted by glassman on :
GOP loosens candidates' tether to Iraq war policy
By Ralph Z. Hallow THE WASHINGTON TIMES August 6, 2006
MINNEAPOLIS -- Republican candidates can disagree with President Bush on the Iraq war and not face retaliation from the White House or the party's national campaign committees, the chairman of the Republican National Committee said. Republicans plan to campaign this fall on a disciplined message centered on the importance of the war on terror, but that overall strategy does not discourage candidates from taking an independent position on the war in Iraq, if it suits the candidate's views and local election situation, Ken Mehlman said.
wow the Fuehrer has loosened the leash...
Posted by Griffon on :
"this country needs the Dems to take the house or the senate...one or the other, for the good of the country... i would prefer the House... but the senate would be fine..not both tho..."
That is exactly correct Glass, in every sense. But I if the Dems get serious about the "down home issues, they win the House. In two years I think they take the Senate. But they are going to need us for the White House.
Posted by bdgee on :
JW, if this was the first time the two of you tried to cover up making jerks of yourselves by claiming after the fact that you were up to something entirely different than what you were, maybe we could believe you. But lets faace it, you've tried thise crap before.
Credibility is not somethiong either of you has to spare.
Posted by glassman on :
Glass I thought you of all here would see the humor in it.
i know that you think this thread consumes all my time but it doesn't... i had a few other pressing matters this weekend...
and? like i said? gordon bennette is not around...
i have never asked bdgee his political affiliation, but bdgee doesn't usually start threads on Bush...
i often do when Bush does something... he was quiet this weekend...
Posted by bdgee on :
Yep, had other things to do this weekend.
And yep, most of the threads I start are on noticing some recent news announcement.
But, right now, what is most important is getting this bunch of facist out of control!
Posted by Griffon on :
"what is most important is getting this bunch of facist out of control!"
They aren't facists, but they are out of control in a bad way, now we just need to get them out of control in a good way.
Posted by glassman on :
They aren't facists
you didn't read their New Century plan? you preach to US that we have an obligation to RULE over weaker countries to protect them... i know you have this 'splanation that we are "empowering them" but that dog don't hunt in my field... i don't expect you to recognize a fascist until they take your gun... then it's too late buddy
the set up is already laid down...
people are screaming for the state of emergency to be declared BEFORE emergencies snow... state of emergency does suspend the constitution yaknow?
Posted by bdgee on :
They are indeed facist.
Every step they have taken follows almost exactly those of Hitler in Germany and Mousilini in Italy.
If you could paint a tiger blue, it would still act like a tiger, because it would still be a tiger.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and eats slugs, it's a duck.
There is no way of getting these facist out that isn't a good way.
Posted by glassman on :
elections still work bdgee... i am not ready to say they don't YET...
the exit polls will be right this time...
Posted by Griffon on :
Guys seriously, if you were offended about this joke it was not the intent. We just both wanted to lighten the mood a bit. And it was my fault because it was my idea. I haven't laughed this hard since a sad thing happened, and that was what I needed, so I thank you. And if you were offended, you gotta admit we have been wound up pretty tight. Someone needed to break the tension, might as well be the fool that got everyone wound up.
Posted by glassman on :
you gotta admit we have been wound up pretty tight theres a lot more going on, just here at allstocks than you know...
no apreciation at this end...
you didn't think i removed my member rating because of you guys did you?
Posted by Griffon on :
"There is no way of getting these facist out that isn't a good way."
There are wrong, bad ways bdgee, may we never go down that road again. Dad says he can remember the whole week Kennedy died and he remembers the day Martin Luther King died. He says something broke in this country that has never been put right since. May no one become the monster they envision across the aisle. It's like the old Who song, "Won't Get Fooled Again." "The party on the left is now the party on the right."
Posted by Griffon on :
"you didn't think i removed my member rating because of you guys did you?"
what is that member rating thing anyway? But no, I don't know much about this site at all.
Posted by glassman on :
look around a little....
this place is a microcosm of the struggle for existence... we have all kinds of actors playing out their assorted roles.... mixed in with with authentic people just trying to figgeer out who's lyin' and who's not....
anyway... jokin' on me upset my friends... try to be a little more "precise" next time Posted by glassman on :
ASE Under Attack Lyle Zapato | 2005-05-21.3650 LMT| Aluminum | Black Helicopters | General Paranoia
A family in a Sacramento, CA neighborhood has turned their home into an Aluminum Shielded Enclosure (ASE) in order to protect themselves from bothersome neighbors who somehow managed to obtain a primitive microwave-based psychotron and are targeting the family with EMF harassment. (The nature and source of the radiation was confirmed using scientific instruments operated by the family's college-educated daughters.)
Their ASE design consists of an external covering of sheet aluminum aligned against the neighbors with an internal aluminum foil lining. For additional safety they also sleep in aluminumized thermal blankets.
Sacramento Code Enforcement agents have learned of the family's ASE and are pressuring them to dismantle it by Monday or face a misdemeanor citation.
here in MS? we just use tin.... Posted by bdgee on :
Explanation for city folks and damnyankees.
By "tin", Glass...does not mean the element, or metal, tin.
"Tin" is use similarly to when one speaks of a tin can, which is made of thin sheet iron coated (sometimes with tin) with something to resist corrosion.
Usually, a "tin" roofed barn would be a barn that has roofing of corrugated (i.e., wavy) galvanized sheet iron. Of course, you understand that galvanizing is a coating with zinc (not tin).
Posted by glassman on :
Bush uses it too... it's even on his roof at the ranch house in Crawford.. he doesn't have the "wavy kind" on his house tho.. we got upscale tin now too
next time you see a reporter giving his "brief" from Crawford? look behind him, it's all over...
good stuff to keep those pesky microwaves out.... Posted by bdgee on :
And if you attach a ground wire, it makes a stealthy Franklin devise.
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...your tactical aproach is what's wrong...
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