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so? we can honestly say that MANY people in America are becoming "RELIGIOPHOBIC" because of people like Pat Robertson (who i could pull a dozen outrageous quotes from) and Jerry Falwell...
is that a fair ssumption?
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quote:Originally posted by john wayne: Sure I understand Glassman. You are talking about claiming faith versus practicing faith in politics but also in all walks of life.
yes...
professional politicians lie by trade..
that is a given in todays world...
i think the last honest guy to make a real run for prez was Ross Perot... he delivered the presidency to Clinton IMO...
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quote:Originally posted by john wayne: Sure but is it fair for them to do that? For instance, the ministers in your town, are they of the same ilk as Robertson and Falwell?
my town? the same ilk? if you mean do they use the pulpit to practice politics? i live in Mississippi, what do you think?
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I am saying we are morally and ethically responsible to the Iraqi people for the leader we installed and equipped and then watched kill 1.4 million people. As you note I never, ever said "executioner." I do not agree with the death penalty as a Christian, though the Iraqi people will be the arbiters of Saddy's fate.
you remind me of Pontius Pilate with this statement...
washing your hands are you?
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Hey bro' it's okay, don't get riled, it's all my fault for letting things get to me earlier today.
From Glass, "griffon. i'm not talking about Katrina relief...i'm talking about systemic abject poverty the same kind of intolerance you see in the mideast and it comes from "colonial attitudes" too..JW, i am talking about people voting a certain way because their minister tells them to in sermons.."
Glass, for many of us, Katrina was our first glimpse of poverty in our own country. The two should not be linked, but the tragic reality is that they are. And I was shamed by it. I have been on every habitable continent but one and that is next year, and I never knew the systemic need here. Let me say some of the places I have been to, MS looks like a resort area (especially Equador). But much of what I saw was like the poverty I see in one of the poorest states in Iowa. 85% of the kids in our schools here receive federal free lunch assistance. People live in trailers with the floor rotting out. Our clothes closet and food pantry are always busy. Addiction is rampant and a renevuer best not get too close to the property.
It matters to me that we end ALL poverty or die trying. That's my conviction. I would stand with the Democrats of old when we fought non-violently for Civil Rights. You know something lost on most people today about the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King is that he was in Memphis fighting against poverty. He wasn't a one issue person like so many make him out to be. He ought for human dignity and that is my fight. I'm never going to be a person mentioned in the same breath as MLK, and I shouldn't be, but I can draw inspiration from his fight.
One of dad's gentle criticisms of me is my compassion for people of other cultures. I have always believed we must work actively for peace. Thus a mission trip to build clinics in the jungles of Equador. A trip to serve Arab Israelis and teach a little but mostly learn. Supporting three children through Childrens' International by sponsoring wells. Did you know in sub-Saharan Africa the leading means of keeping women under thumb is the collection of potable drinking water?
Enough of that. Glass, my faith insures I will always be Independent. I do not ever preach candidate nomination addresses from the pulpit, or in small groups. Literally, this forum is the only public expression of my political thoughts. And I think to do otherwise, to preach and teach candidates, is mal-practice.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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"you remind me of Pontius Pilate with this statement... washing your hands are you?"
Nope, just recognizing their right of self-determination. The US moral culpability, our collective responsibility, has been in our support of his regime for how many years, when we knew of the genocide of the Kurds. We can never wash the blood off, but we can go forward now providing reparations to Iraq, forgiving any and all debt owed to the world community or paying it ourselves. And we can provide a fund, through NGOs if need be, that will empower their own self-determination.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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OK, their self-determination is exactly what the LIBERAL Democrats are advocating when they say we should pull out... what's the title of this thread?
furthermore? The Neo-cons and Cheney were doing business with this guy Chalabi.. it seems they had plans to build Iraq into their own business...
the fact is sadam did what he had to do to maintain control...
of course he was a demonic sadist, but that's who is taking control over there now anyway, while we are still there BTW...
the Kurds are raiding along (and possibly into) the Turkish border... Turkey doesn't want a Kurdish state and they are our ally..
there's no way to please everybody, ever...
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Enough of that. Glass, my faith insures I will always be Independent. I do not ever preach candidate nomination addresses from the pulpit, or in small groups. Literally, this forum is the only public expression of my political thoughts. And I think to do otherwise, to preach and teach candidates, is mal-practice.
yeah BUT, your thread titles are more than a little bit insulting, even to me as GOP...
i see America as Dems and GOPs BOTH,, because we are...
and the GOPs aren't the owners of morality any more than Pat Robertson is... well maybe more than Pat ...
and if we poke fun at Bush? it is mostly earned...and what isn't fun? is definitely earned...
the job is open to criticism, it goes with the turf... Jay Lenno and Letterman make a living off it...
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"the fact is sadam did what he had to do to maintain control..."
Yes all brutal leaders say that: Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, the Sudanese leaders now, that can't be an excuse the world community allows. It goes against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
"OK, their self-determination is exactly what the LIBERAL Democrats are advocating when they say we should pull out... what's the title of this thread?"
To leave now would just make way for all out war across the Middle East. Liberal Democrats are not advocating self-determination they are advocating getting our troops out. At this point pulling out would lead to massacre. Like I said, Bush and the Western powers should have bought him off into exile, but now to leave invites ethnic strife. Self-determination for the sake of Sunni, Shi'a and Kurd as well as Marsh Arabs needs to happen in a situation of greater stability.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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To leave now would just make way for all out war across the Middle East. Liberal Democrats are not advocating self-determination they are advocating getting our troops out. At this point pulling out would lead to massacre. Like I said, Bush and the Western powers should have bought him off into exile, but now to leave invites ethnic strife. Self-determination for the sake of Sunni, Shi'a and Kurd as well as Marsh Arabs needs to happen in a situation of greater stability.
you are correct about leaving too soon, i have said as much while critisizing Bush for getting US into this mess...
BUT?
the Shia and the Sunnis have a very different plan...
and they don't care one bit what you think....
sadam was as much a product of his own culture as he was the Reagan crew... you are an idealist...
the person who emerges to lead iraq, if iraq survves as a nation, is not going to be any better...
human nature...
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Iraq was dealing withthe Soviets then.. you really do hate the Dems..
The U.S. restored formal relations with Iraq in November 1984, but the U.S. had begun, several years earlier, to provide it with intelligence and military support (in secret and contrary to this country's official neutrality) in accordance with policy directives from President Ronald Reagan. These were prepared pursuant to his March 1982 National Security Study Memorandum (NSSM 4-82) asking for a review of U.S. policy toward the Middle East
the picture is Shaking Hands: Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, in Baghdad on December 20, 1983.
Iraq was fighting Iran and we were officially neutral, but Reagan had just beat Carter on the IRANIAN hostage crisis issue... (thats when i enlisted to go kill Iranians)
posted
most all of the 1.4 million YOU claim sadam is guilty of killing were Iraninas who are our sworn enemy... something well over a million Iranians
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Now it isd unfortunate that in the long run it appears America backed the wrong horse. Or can we even say that? What if we had backed Iran? Would that have made things better?
As I have said before Glassman War, as politics makes strange bed fellows. Now I know you will say this is ancient history but I use it to make a point, and I do believe it is relevant. Do you think there is a picture out there showing Roosevelt shaking Stalin's hand? And what happened immediately after World War II, the cold war started and he was our sworn enemy. So he was our friend when fighting the Germans and our enemy immediately after he finished.
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Now it isd unfortunate that in the long run it appears America backed the wrong horse. Or can we even say that? What if we had backed Iran? Would that have made things better?
damn you should be paying me for this lesson:
Iran took one of my schoolmates fathers HOSTAGE for over a year....
we couldn't back them... they were at war with, NO> they declared war on US, and Reagan didn't do the friggin job then so we still have the problem...
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quote:Originally posted by Griffon: http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2004/September/War/index.html there you go Glass, to help you learn the connection to Saddam is earlier than Reagan. The arms negotiations started under Reagan, Carter encouraged the invasion.
uhhh? you are quoting the Iranian news? for crying out loud this is puke....
why don't you just go over to Teheran and stay...
unfrigginbelievable....
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I know we couldn't back Iran, that is my point. if Iran is facing Iraq, what choice did we have but to support saddam? You mean Rove manipulates Iran's media? There's where your wrong. it is run by the illluminati!!!
Face it Glass Carter caved to a political necessity. I am not saying he had an easy choice at the time, but he was our second contact with Saddy. The first I think was Bush senior as CIA director in 1976.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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sadam was a sunni... so are the Sauds... you are way off base.. Carter may have asked Fahd to talk but it was not US policy 'til Reagan made it so.
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Your source, like mine is selective in its reporting. Some has never come out. Fortunately, I have three liberal sources and three Arab sources. In what 5 minutes?
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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So you hate Iran? Fair enough try this one:
i recognise them as our enemy...
due to luck? i wasn't living in Iran when the hostages were taken,, you guys have an agenda here, and i am beginning to wonder if you aren't Iranians...
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quote:Originally posted by Griffon: Your source, like mine is selective in its reporting. Some has never come out. Fortunately, I have three liberal sources and three Arab sources. In what 5 minutes?
you can shove your arab sources up your azz...
this stuff you are posting is propaganda from our enmey...
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The irony of the situation of course is that while Jimmy Carter, a Democrat, did start the war; Ronald Reagan, a Republican, was the one that finally ended up supporting the Mullahs and selling arms to both Iran and Iraq. The deaths caused by 9/22 can therefore be attributed to both sides of the American political divide.
carter started the war... LOL... you guys are on some really bad dope..
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Wow, that's stretching a long ways to defend an indefensible and really you make too much of the Sunni-Shi'a relationship because you have watched Iraq and made assumptions. Here's another post by the way
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