This is topic Religio-phobia and racism in the party that used to fight for civil rights in forum Off-Topic Post, Non Stock Talk at Allstocks.com's Bulletin Board.
I have to ask how much of the intolerance I see directed toward the President is really latent fear and hate of his expressed religion. See I remember one whom the Democrats embraced, the REV. Dr. Martin Luther King jr. walking side by side with Democratic and a few Republican leaders. I have to wonder if he would be welcome in the party he used to call home if he were alive and preaching today?
Oh what has become of the party that led the civil rights struggle? They let hundreds of thousands die because they were people of color. They let increased poverty sweep across the world with applause. They did not support tax cuts that empowered minority small business owners increase their wealth. They did not support the faith-based initiatives (which my churches do not participate in but) many predominantly ethnic minority churches use to feed and clothe the poor.
Where are the values they once espoused? They can express those values because they came from Christianity and the Democratic leadership can't admit anything connected to religion gave them their identity. But we Christians are good citizens, those of us in the middle waiting patiently for a party to welcome us.
Now this might sound patronizing, self-righteous and smug to those on the far left, but given what I hear on this website and received in a PM, I hear the hate and intolerance of the Left saying, "Don't vote for us you filthy Christian. We lost and we're still mad."
Why do I feel oppressed in such a way? Someone took me at my word about accepting the throwing of eggs at my perspective. The gist of the PM was that I should know a family member in an offensive, profane way, drop dead in a painful way and go found a nation where we Christians can all rot together.
Now to that person, if I EVER get a PM like that again, I will post it on this site for all to see as a demonstration of hate speech and intolerance along with who sent it. That is your warning; I do not send hate speech, nor do I accept it. I will not respond to its individual statements, but I want you all to imagine coming home from an evening you went without eating because you are sitting with a family as their mom, wife, daughter, aunt dies of cancer at 31 to find such a PM sent to you. Imagine being the person who comforts and consoles 7 and 10 year old children as their dad steps out in pain for a few minutes and then finding this comment.
Bless you friend for the thoughtful words I have come to too often experience from the intolerant persons on the far left. Bless you from my heart for helping me experience the persecution my sisters and brothers in faith experienced all the way back to the era of Jesus Christ. My prayers are for your awakening to compassion.
Now to your third point suggesting I go form a new nation where we Christians can all rot. We already did, The United States of America where Christians came to flee the tyranny of the government. Quakers, Catholics, Reformed, Brethren, Pietists, Deists, Theists, Quietists, and Methodists we came. Our ranks led the charge against slavery and for women's rights. Our ranks give billions to relieve those in disaster areas. And we will stay inviting everyone else to do so too.
Are we perfect? If I am an example of our perfection, then I know we are not perfect. I am as Paul said, "The chief among sinners." And though you and I may disagree on insignificant issues of politics, I would always greet you with the hand of friendship and love. All because Christ is in my heart!
Posted by Griffon on :
Must have hit it dead on. No one to challenge the fact that the far left of the political spectrum hates Christians? I know it's obvious to anyone who listens to Howard Dean after his campaign blew up, and he blamed the whole thing on Christians.
Posted by john wayne on :
Ahhh, they are waiting for you to go to bed before they respond Griff. They know you work days.
Getting close to Wiper fishing. I am taking garret out in mid August. When you coming up?
Posted by Griffon on :
How bout the weekend of August 18-19? I think they just know the truth bro' that they do hate Christians. Listen to the post by Glassman. Pure fear of religion.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
It's all or nothing with you isn't it Griffon? Everyone on the far left hates Christians? C'mon. Surely you can see the flaw in that view?
It's like saying everyone on the far right bombs abortion clinics.
The reality is, people on the far right have abortions, and people on the far left are Christians.
Incidently, based on the teachings of Jesus, He would be pretty far left on the political spectrum.
Posted by Griffon on :
Not at all Gordon. Jesus would be and I do follow Jesus in my political sentiments. I set this up to start brisk conversation. Personally, in my own denomination we are as a block on the far left. My main issue with the Democrats is that they don't articulate their vision of the future. You know, when they did they always won. Civil Rights, Human Rights based foreign policy. I remember those days when religious leaders and Democratic political leaders stood up together and changed the face of this nation.
I wish it were that way today. The struggle to live up to "All men (sic persons) are created equal. Right now, with the old party, they sound like Republicans Light. And whenever we have one weak party, the other party gets lazy and corrupt. It's not good for our nation.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
To say that the far left hates Christians and then to follow that with the statement "in my own denomination we are as a block on the far left" seems a bit (oh, how can I put this) nuts.
Posted by glassman on :
well gordon you know what they say about genius and insanity
Posted by glassman on :
Right now, with the old party, they sound like Republicans Light. And whenever we have one weak party, the other party gets lazy and corrupt. It's not good for our nation. the blame is partly due rove to putting them in a corner.
this whole thing about being weak on terrorism has left the dems dizzy IMO...
i'm not a dem, but i hate seeing the House, Senate and the White House one party...that's what's not good for our country IMO...
Posted by bdgee on :
It isn't simply that the republicans (again my sincere apologies to the real, ancient, and once were republicans, but these vermin stole the name) control both houses of congress. It is that the ones in control of Congress are loyal to the Party rather than the Country (and that is what is wrong with the Party!!!).
If the democrats were in control of both houses (I'm not interested in any crap from the right wing claiming democrats did the same once upon a time...that is a lie to make republicans feel justified in being dis-patriotic by always going Party first) and voted never to question a democratic president, then they would be just as dis-patriotic and guilty as the republicans.
Posted by Griffon on :
I really don't see them going one party right now. Neither party has the horses to pull that off. In my heart Glass, I would like to see the electorate send a clear signal through a populist 3rd party centrist that this hate stuff and the name calling has to go. The immigration bills for instance turned into a racist circus, both sides agreeing on the "whipping boy." And it was all to tug on latent fears and hates that threaten to undo us all as a nation.
Posted by bdgee on :
The pot calls the kettle black!
Posted by Griffon on :
"To say that the far left hates Christians and then to follow that with the statement "in my own denomination we are as a block on the far left" seems a bit (oh, how can I put this) nuts."
Like I said I like to pose provocative questions, not always reflective of my opinion.
Posted by bdgee on :
BS
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Yes Glassman you are right. Rove's got the dem's over a barrel already. They cannot afford to be soft on security, hence the frustration everyone is having with Hillary. but the other problem they have is they must unlock the southern vote. And unlockinbg the southern vote while holding onto your base is going to be tough for the Dem's. Impossible for Hillary.
Posted by Griffon on :
"BS" My friend, I will not play your provocative game anymore. It does not allow me to present who I am realistically. Blessings to you and peace, shalom and salaam on this site.
Posted by bdgee on :
You just got caught in another logical falacy and don't have the grace to admit it.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Edwards is the only Choice. Osama can not get the southern vote. Kerry and Gore cannot get the vote. Lieberman can not get the vote. Hillary cannot get the vote. Problem: In my opinion Clintons are blocking Edwards 'cause they know the same thing.
Posted by bdgee on :
More BS.
You want to transfer responsibility again rather than admit to your self made contradictions.
It was your "provacative game", remember! You pointed that out, over and in response to objections to your persistance accusations.
Quoting you,
"I set this up to start brisk conversation."
Posted by Griffon on :
God bless you bdgee. Bro' help me out here. Do I always post simply to prove a point or do I post just to get peoples' opinions?
Posted by bdgee on :
You post almost always to declare others opinions conform to your whims and prejudices.
And it is very rude.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Just looking for responses usually to discuss things.
Posted by Griffon on :
Ah, bless you bdgee. Your good beans. I won't be baited anymore.
Posted by glassman on :
your opening statement here: I have to ask how much of the intolerance I see directed toward the President is really latent fear and hate of his expressed religion.
i'm not dem.... but/ i want you to answer me this...
how much of his support is blindly faith based.
it appears to be a solid 10% which of course is what got him the difference in '04....
especially when you consider that Kerry is Catholic....
Pat Robertsona nd Jerry Falwell both "pumped" him with money and talk... it was enough of a difference that McCain is now nosing around those guys too.. something he wouldn't do before...
Posted by bdgee on :
Lat's face facts and accept the blunt truth, these guys are "deep-down-to-the-bone-ugly" bogots.
"I do not send hate speech, nor do I accept it.", he claims.
He may not sendit (to where?) but he sure does post it here and makes it very clear indeed that he accepts it most eagarly when it is directed by him or toward whom he wants to demean..
Just looking at the titles of threads Griffon has started and the accusations and implications within them is a good example of bigoted hate speach:
" Why does the Democratic party support genocide!"
Where does he get off declaring that democrats approve of or in anyway condone, let alone support, genocide? What a vulgar accusation.
"Religio-phobia and racism in the party that used to fight for civil rights"
Who, democrat or other, wants to be stigmatized by that sort of pre-declaration and bias? Racism where? When? When did democrats stop fighting for civil rights?
That sort of attack is uncalled for and is akin to racial stigmatising.
It takes a reak sick mind to attack democrats on the basis of racism or civil rights or genocide, but he does so quite loudly and declares anyone objecting to those insults and vile crudities to be engaged in hate speach.
It is him that practices hate speach.
And it appears to be that he does it so habitually that he has become mesmerized by his own rhetoric and sick enough to not even realize how hateful and crude he speaks.
But watch, instead of considering how hateful the titles of his threads (and much of the claims he makes) are, he'll claim they have some other purpose. A lot like the old man I used to know that claimed he wasn't racially biased, " It's because God made those people like he made dogs, you know, they don't have any soul and can't go to heaven". Yep, democrats (or whomever else he is attacking) weren't provided with a soul by God and so have no reason to expect to be respected or allowed comon courtesy....hell, they can't go to heaven.
Posted by Sunnyside on :
C'mon bdgee, didn't he say he's studying for the ministry????
You're not feeling the love and tolerance of a man who follows Jesus in his political sentiments.
Posted by glassman on :
he's studying politics with rove...
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: well gordon you know what they say about genius and insanity
oh....chit!
that strikes a chord...
What *do* they say!?!?
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Hope you guys stick around tonight.
Posted by glassman on :
what for?
Posted by bond006 on :
Griffon, when you say he is hated for his religion what religion are you referring to. I hope it is not the following of Christ and Christin
Posted by Griffon on :
"Where does he get off declaring that democrats approve of or in anyway condone, let alone support, genocide? What a vulgar accusation."
God bless you bdgee! what an endearing post you give.
Actually, the declaration came from Warren Christopher off record at the UN in 1994, "Who cares if Rwandans die as long as Americans don't." Went global in '94.
Posted by Griffon on :
"Yep, democrats (or whomever else he is attacking) weren't provided with a soul by God and so have no reason to expect to be respected or allowed comon courtesy....hell, they can't go to heaven."
bdgee, blessings be upon you. Never said any such thing. How about Jordan's comment on discovering I am Christian, "You have no credibility in my eyes now." No bigotry intended there I'm sure.
Posted by john wayne on :
Bond who is Christin?
Posted by john wayne on :
Shall we rev up for another tangle boys?
Posted by Griffon on :
"It takes a reak sick mind to attack democrats on the basis of racism or civil rights or genocide, but he does so quite loudly and declares anyone objecting to those insults and vile crudities to be engaged in hate speach."
Bdgee you have such a gentle way, Why not point out the slaughter of innocents during Democratic rule? Clinton's inactivity allowed millions to die in the 90s. You called my intellectually deficient on the basis of my faith. You make vulgar statements about who I am and what I believe. I never attacked persons, you did my friend and I thank you for that.
Posted by Griffon on :
"Griffon, when you say he is hated for his religion what religion are you referring to. I hope it is not the following of Christ and Christin"
Bond, I am not sure what you're asking? Are you asking what faith I am hated for, that would be Christian. I hate no one's free expression of their religion.
Posted by john wayne on :
I think he is asking you if you are saying Bush is a Christian.
Posted by john wayne on :
Griff_ I think they are confused because you said "in" the democratic party, and as you know in some democrats eyes you can't be racist or have phobias if you are a democrat. In fact, in some democrats heart you are perfect if you are a democrat.
Posted by john wayne on :
Now griff I missed the part where your other topic said democrats support genocide. Didn't you say the democratic party supports genocide? Wouldn't that be a refernce to it's leaders, or it's policies, not in effect it's voters?
Hmm let's see I've been called dumb on here a few times, once or twice by myself, but I figured that one out.
Posted by john wayne on :
Now some of you boys might like your Christian's to sit in the corner and just huddle into a little ball when rocks are thrown at them. Turn the other cheek and all that stuff. Well it ain't happening tonight fellas.
Posted by glassman on :
Clinton's inactivity allowed millions to die in the 90s
you boys see yourselves as the cavalry from God dontcha?
regular avenging angels with the will of God on your side.
Not at all Glass, but I have those pesky civil rights too. I will stand in faith and love you as you throw stones.
Posted by john wayne on :
Nope Glassman me too little. Only 5 foot 8 and 150.... well 160..... lbs. Actually I think I used to be 5'8 with age I've shrunk a little, but I still lay claim to 5 foot 8. A hell I'm just short, fat and bald Glassman.
Posted by glassman on :
I never attacked persons, you did my friend and I thank you for that.
you attack, and judge, and consider yourselves in a position to judge...
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: Not at all Glass, but I have those pesky civil rights too. I will stand in faith and love you as you throw stones.
LOL throwing stones? i'm trying to open your eyes.. you are telling US to be judge, jury, and executioner of all the bad dicktaters...
Posted by Griffon on :
By the way, your apocalyptic pic is not one of avenging angels. Let me exegete for you:
The four horsemen depicted here are not avenging angels are judgments of humanity: war, plague, hunger and death. They are the witness of God that history will always have wars, deth, plagues and famines. It's a reminder that we are called to stand up for justice and act with mercy even though our efforts will have incomplete effect, that sin thing, the utter depravity dontcha know. How much change we cn effect depends on your eschatology, pre-millenialists are closest to nihilists meaning we won't change much until Christ returns. Post-millenialists believe humanity can change the world before Christ returns.
Posted by glassman on :
your opening statement here: I have to ask how much of the intolerance I see directed toward the President is really latent fear and hate of his expressed religion.
i'm not dem.... but/ i want you to answer me this...
how much of his (Bush's) support is blindly faith based.
it appears to be a solid 10% and maybe even as much 20% which of course is what got him the difference in '04....
especially when you consider that Kerry is Catholic....
Pat Robertsona nd Jerry Falwell both "pumped" him with money and talk... it was enough of a difference that McCain is now nosing around those guys too.. something he wouldn't do before...
this is still an open question...
squirm....
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: By the way, your apocalyptic pic is not one of avenging angels. Let me exegete for you:
The four horsemen depicted here are not avenging angels are judgments of humanity: war, plague, hunger and death. They are the witness of God that history will always have wars, deth, plagues and famines. It's a reminder that we are called to stand up for justice and act with mercy even though our efforts will have incomplete effect, that sin thing, the utter depravity dontcha know. How much change we cn effect depends on your eschatology, pre-millenialists are closest to nihilists meaning we won't change much until Christ returns. Post-millenialists believe humanity can change the world before Christ returns.
i know exactly what they are, i ran the search to find them for you...
not everybody needs to be preached to yaknow...
that's why you remind me of a Baptist...
my way or the hi-way..Bush is that way too...
Posted by Griffon on :
"you are telling US to be judge, jury, and executioner of all the bad dictaters..."
I am saying we are morally and ethically responsible to the Iraqi people for the leader we installed and equipped and then watched kill 1.4 million people. As you note I never, ever said "executioner." I do not agree with the death penalty as a Christian, though the Iraqi people will be the arbiters of Saddy's fate.
And I call upon all colonial powers to do justice to their former colonies and remove brutal leaders and act to eliminate poverty. Western Europe got fat in profits from their colonies. Give some back.
Posted by glassman on :
eliminate poverty now dammit..
give everybody a fish today!
LOL.... grow up..
better yet? get out of your cozy little world? and come down to MS. we got a lot of work to be done rat heyer gittin' people out of poverty that's still left over from the friggin civil war...
we are doing our part...
Posted by Griffon on :
"my way or the hi-way..Bush i sthat way too... only one way to get to heaven..."
Where did I ever say that Glass? I know I never said there is only one way to get to heaven, because I am a Christian universalist who believes in the Andover theory. I notice it's okay for you to tell me what I am thinking but you take offence when I return the favor? If you use religious imagery, I will respond with exegesis. That was your choice, artfully chosen, but it's not the primary focus of my theology.
Posted by john wayne on :
Glassman- Who is the Judge in the Hussein trial? Who is the jury in the Hussein trial? Who is/ will be if there is one, the executioner in the Hussein trial? Have you heard Christians express outrage at this set up? Have you heard my brother say we should be trying him? Could our troops have killed Hussein? Did you hear Christian outrage when they didn't? Has my brother said it was a mistake not to kill Hussein?
Posted by glassman on :
andover theory..'splain
you gettin upset about me suggesting you're a Baptist now? LOL
still waiting on your answer about the blind faith of the Bush vote...
Posted by john wayne on :
Glassman - He's been to the Middle East for God sake. Last year! How's that for leaving his "cozy world"?
Posted by john wayne on :
Glass- Do you mean blind faith to Bush or blind faith as in religion?
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by john wayne: Glassman - He's been to the Middle East for God sake. Last year! How's that for leaving his "cozy world"?
why? we still got problems right here...
that's ONE very good reason not to invade other countries...
casting stones, glass houses, etc....
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by john wayne: Glass- Do you mean blind faith to Bush or blind faith as in religion?
i posed the question twice now... it's in the thread unanswered...
and i only suggested that you remind of Baptist cuz yu have certain intolerant attitudes...
oh thats right i forgot you just say things to "stir the pot" you don't reall ybelieve them... LOL
Posted by Griffon on :
"better yet? get out of your cozy little world? and come down to MS. we got a lot of work to be done rat heyer gittin' peoplee out of poverty that's still left over from the friggin civil war... we are doing our part..."
Been there to help friend...gave up vacation time to do it. Gave $5000 this year to Katrina relief. Preached a sermon that helped a church to raise $2500 in one hour. Also arranged for a MS family to come up here and stay rent free in our unused parsonage for six months while their house was fixed. I have a week in September, I'd gladly give for helping the South recover.
And just a note on geography...I was talking about the Colonial powers of Western Europe in the post. Mississippi is a little removed from Europe and was never a colonial power in its own right.
Posted by Griffon on :
"Glass- Do you mean blind faith to Bush or blind faith as in religion?"
must have missed it. My faith came out of the crucible of trial and fire. Nothing blind about it. As critical of Bush as I am you can see no blindness there.
Or were you talking about the band by that name?
Posted by glassman on :
griffon. i'm not talking about Katrina relief...i'm talking about systemic abject poverty
the same kind of intolerance you see in the mideast and it comes from "colonial attitudes" too..
JW, i am talking about people voting a certain way because their minister tells them to in sermons..
Posted by glassman on :
here it is again: 3rd time...
quote:Originally posted by glassman: your opening statement here: I have to ask how much of the intolerance I see directed toward the President is really latent fear and hate of his expressed religion.
i'm not dem.... but/ i want you to answer me this...
how much of his (Bush's) support is blindly faith based.
it appears to be a solid 10% and maybe even as much 20% which of course is what got him the difference in '04....
especially when you consider that Kerry is Catholic....
Pat Robertsona nd Jerry Falwell both "pumped" him with money and talk... it was enough of a difference that McCain is now nosing around those guys too.. something he wouldn't do before...
this is still an open question...
squirm....
you see? "religiophobia" as you call it, comes from people watching the clergy bring the votes in...
and the money, yes, lots of money as long as Bush can deliver faith-based Federal funding that is...
Posted by john wayne on :
Glassman- I'm sorry I've gotten a little riled up with you tonight. I came here looking for a fight and that is not right for me to do that. You are level headed tonight and I'm just not tonight. I don't like people to question my brother's faith because I know how strong it is and I know all of the things he has done that he is too modest to post. Unfortunately I think a computer is almost impossible to give a real impression of yourself, for anybody. Especially a board about politics when most boards are run by the left or right wing because they are the only one's dedicated, or lonely enough to post on these things. As I know you have been riled up a time or two before on this board, I hope you understand my apology is sincere. Especially since you are going through the trying time of raising a goth teen!
Now guys let's talk and bring this down a notch, despite my Dean like ravings!!
Posted by john wayne on :
My minister did not tell me to vote for Bush. I don't recall a minister ever telling me who to vote for. No siree my check came right in the mail from the RNC!!!
Actually griff you would be more adept at answering that. Are ministers/fathers etc supposed to enter politics in the way of endorsements? I know the big shots like Robertson jessie Jackson etc do, but do others?
Also is there any history of religous leaders, other than Jesse Jackson, running for office?
Posted by glassman on :
I don't like people to question my brother's faith because I know how strong it is and I know all of the things he has done that he is too modest to post. i'm not questioning anybodies faith... i am making him and you examine how your faith influences your POLITICS...
there is a big difference between faith and religion my friend...
it's (the difference) HUGE...
religion really is politics.. politics is the interaction between people... Faith is personal...
Posted by Griffon on :
Thanks Glass I must have missed that post. I was gone for some hours. I think about 10% supported him based on people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. More in the South and much less everywhere else. I never preach politics from the pulpit directly, but I preach on the need to overcome poverty, end homeless, assist the addicted, visit the sick and imprisoned which touch on social situations. Never, ever do I comment on candidates.
Obviously, McCain needs the conservative vote
Posted by john wayne on :
Well my apology still stands.
Posted by glassman on :
Especially a board about politics when most boards are run by the left or right wing because they are the only one's dedicated, or lonely enough to post on these things.
this board is run by somebody with outstanding ethics and i doubt they agree with many things i say here, BUT?
they let me anyway..
it's called freedom of speech...
Posted by john wayne on :
Run meaning majority of posts, not moderated. Absolutely Bob is a geat guy who let's all of us shoot our mouths off regardless of political stance.
Posted by john wayne on :
Sure I understand Glassman. You are talking about claiming faith versus practicing faith in politics but also in all walks of life.
Posted by glassman on :
so? we can honestly say that MANY people in America are becoming "RELIGIOPHOBIC" because of people like Pat Robertson (who i could pull a dozen outrageous quotes from) and Jerry Falwell...
is that a fair ssumption?
Posted by john wayne on :
Sure but is it fair for them to do that? For instance, the ministers in your town, are they of the same ilk as Robertson and Falwell?
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by john wayne: Sure I understand Glassman. You are talking about claiming faith versus practicing faith in politics but also in all walks of life.
yes...
professional politicians lie by trade..
that is a given in todays world...
i think the last honest guy to make a real run for prez was Ross Perot... he delivered the presidency to Clinton IMO...
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by john wayne: Sure but is it fair for them to do that? For instance, the ministers in your town, are they of the same ilk as Robertson and Falwell?
my town? the same ilk? if you mean do they use the pulpit to practice politics? i live in Mississippi, what do you think?
Posted by glassman on :
I am saying we are morally and ethically responsible to the Iraqi people for the leader we installed and equipped and then watched kill 1.4 million people. As you note I never, ever said "executioner." I do not agree with the death penalty as a Christian, though the Iraqi people will be the arbiters of Saddy's fate.
you remind me of Pontius Pilate with this statement...
washing your hands are you?
Posted by Griffon on :
Hey bro' it's okay, don't get riled, it's all my fault for letting things get to me earlier today.
From Glass, "griffon. i'm not talking about Katrina relief...i'm talking about systemic abject poverty the same kind of intolerance you see in the mideast and it comes from "colonial attitudes" too..JW, i am talking about people voting a certain way because their minister tells them to in sermons.."
Glass, for many of us, Katrina was our first glimpse of poverty in our own country. The two should not be linked, but the tragic reality is that they are. And I was shamed by it. I have been on every habitable continent but one and that is next year, and I never knew the systemic need here. Let me say some of the places I have been to, MS looks like a resort area (especially Equador). But much of what I saw was like the poverty I see in one of the poorest states in Iowa. 85% of the kids in our schools here receive federal free lunch assistance. People live in trailers with the floor rotting out. Our clothes closet and food pantry are always busy. Addiction is rampant and a renevuer best not get too close to the property.
It matters to me that we end ALL poverty or die trying. That's my conviction. I would stand with the Democrats of old when we fought non-violently for Civil Rights. You know something lost on most people today about the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King is that he was in Memphis fighting against poverty. He wasn't a one issue person like so many make him out to be. He ought for human dignity and that is my fight. I'm never going to be a person mentioned in the same breath as MLK, and I shouldn't be, but I can draw inspiration from his fight.
One of dad's gentle criticisms of me is my compassion for people of other cultures. I have always believed we must work actively for peace. Thus a mission trip to build clinics in the jungles of Equador. A trip to serve Arab Israelis and teach a little but mostly learn. Supporting three children through Childrens' International by sponsoring wells. Did you know in sub-Saharan Africa the leading means of keeping women under thumb is the collection of potable drinking water?
Enough of that. Glass, my faith insures I will always be Independent. I do not ever preach candidate nomination addresses from the pulpit, or in small groups. Literally, this forum is the only public expression of my political thoughts. And I think to do otherwise, to preach and teach candidates, is mal-practice.
Posted by Griffon on :
"you remind me of Pontius Pilate with this statement... washing your hands are you?"
Nope, just recognizing their right of self-determination. The US moral culpability, our collective responsibility, has been in our support of his regime for how many years, when we knew of the genocide of the Kurds. We can never wash the blood off, but we can go forward now providing reparations to Iraq, forgiving any and all debt owed to the world community or paying it ourselves. And we can provide a fund, through NGOs if need be, that will empower their own self-determination.
Posted by glassman on :
OK, their self-determination is exactly what the LIBERAL Democrats are advocating when they say we should pull out... what's the title of this thread?
furthermore? The Neo-cons and Cheney were doing business with this guy Chalabi.. it seems they had plans to build Iraq into their own business...
the fact is sadam did what he had to do to maintain control...
of course he was a demonic sadist, but that's who is taking control over there now anyway, while we are still there BTW...
the Kurds are raiding along (and possibly into) the Turkish border... Turkey doesn't want a Kurdish state and they are our ally..
there's no way to please everybody, ever...
Posted by glassman on :
Enough of that. Glass, my faith insures I will always be Independent. I do not ever preach candidate nomination addresses from the pulpit, or in small groups. Literally, this forum is the only public expression of my political thoughts. And I think to do otherwise, to preach and teach candidates, is mal-practice.
yeah BUT, your thread titles are more than a little bit insulting, even to me as GOP...
i see America as Dems and GOPs BOTH,, because we are...
and the GOPs aren't the owners of morality any more than Pat Robertson is... well maybe more than Pat ...
and if we poke fun at Bush? it is mostly earned...and what isn't fun? is definitely earned...
the job is open to criticism, it goes with the turf... Jay Lenno and Letterman make a living off it...
Posted by john wayne on :
Glassman - as a republican, how do you feel about being called a brown shirt? How do you feel about the goosestepping lines Bdgee references?
Posted by Griffon on :
"the fact is sadam did what he had to do to maintain control..."
Yes all brutal leaders say that: Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, the Sudanese leaders now, that can't be an excuse the world community allows. It goes against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
"OK, their self-determination is exactly what the LIBERAL Democrats are advocating when they say we should pull out... what's the title of this thread?"
To leave now would just make way for all out war across the Middle East. Liberal Democrats are not advocating self-determination they are advocating getting our troops out. At this point pulling out would lead to massacre. Like I said, Bush and the Western powers should have bought him off into exile, but now to leave invites ethnic strife. Self-determination for the sake of Sunni, Shi'a and Kurd as well as Marsh Arabs needs to happen in a situation of greater stability.
Posted by bdgee on :
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and owes it's loyalty to the Party over the Nation. then.......
Posted by glassman on :
To leave now would just make way for all out war across the Middle East. Liberal Democrats are not advocating self-determination they are advocating getting our troops out. At this point pulling out would lead to massacre. Like I said, Bush and the Western powers should have bought him off into exile, but now to leave invites ethnic strife. Self-determination for the sake of Sunni, Shi'a and Kurd as well as Marsh Arabs needs to happen in a situation of greater stability.
you are correct about leaving too soon, i have said as much while critisizing Bush for getting US into this mess...
BUT?
the Shia and the Sunnis have a very different plan...
and they don't care one bit what you think....
sadam was as much a product of his own culture as he was the Reagan crew... you are an idealist...
the person who emerges to lead iraq, if iraq survves as a nation, is not going to be any better...
human nature...
Posted by john wayne on :
Any idea when this was taken?
Posted by Griffon on :
"sadam was as much a product of his own culture as he was the Reagan crew..."
The link goes from Carter to GB I actually.
"you are an idealist..."
The world needs healthy idealism. At 41 I find fewer people share with me dogged determination to work for a better world. I hear alot more cynicism.
"you are corect, i have said as much while critisizing Bush for getting US into this mess..."
as have I for the path he took, but that is water under the bridge or over the spilled er ah dam.
"the person who emerges to lead iraq if iraq survves as a nation is not going to be any better..."
Then we find a way to teach the lesson again. I'll start saving my change now.
Posted by glassman on :
the link goes to carter?
LOL...
Iraq was dealing withthe Soviets then.. you really do hate the Dems..
The U.S. restored formal relations with Iraq in November 1984, but the U.S. had begun, several years earlier, to provide it with intelligence and military support (in secret and contrary to this country's official neutrality) in accordance with policy directives from President Ronald Reagan. These were prepared pursuant to his March 1982 National Security Study Memorandum (NSSM 4-82) asking for a review of U.S. policy toward the Middle East
the picture is Shaking Hands: Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, in Baghdad on December 20, 1983.
Iraq was fighting Iran and we were officially neutral, but Reagan had just beat Carter on the IRANIAN hostage crisis issue... (thats when i enlisted to go kill Iranians)
Reagan's people were supplying BOTH sides by the time the war was over, and some of the funding was from cocaine smuggling...
lots of skeletons in th closet...
Posted by glassman on :
most all of the 1.4 million YOU claim sadam is guilty of killing were Iraninas who are our sworn enemy... something well over a million Iranians
Posted by john wayne on :
Now it isd unfortunate that in the long run it appears America backed the wrong horse. Or can we even say that? What if we had backed Iran? Would that have made things better?
As I have said before Glassman War, as politics makes strange bed fellows. Now I know you will say this is ancient history but I use it to make a point, and I do believe it is relevant. Do you think there is a picture out there showing Roosevelt shaking Stalin's hand? And what happened immediately after World War II, the cold war started and he was our sworn enemy. So he was our friend when fighting the Germans and our enemy immediately after he finished.
Posted by glassman on :
Now it isd unfortunate that in the long run it appears America backed the wrong horse. Or can we even say that? What if we had backed Iran? Would that have made things better?
damn you should be paying me for this lesson:
Iran took one of my schoolmates fathers HOSTAGE for over a year....
we couldn't back them... they were at war with, NO> they declared war on US, and Reagan didn't do the friggin job then so we still have the problem...
Posted by Griffon on :
http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2004/September/War/index.html there you go Glass, to help you learn the connection to Saddam is earlier than Reagan. The arms negotiations started under Reagan, Carter encouraged the invasion.
Posted by glassman on :
you guys have been ROVED, bad.. you have formulated opinions with only a small portion of the facts...
this is why democracies suck... cuz anybody can vote... JK...
Posted by Griffon on :
"Carter was now going for Iran's throat using Saddam's hands."
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2004/September/War/index.html there you go Glass, to help you learn the connection to Saddam is earlier than Reagan. The arms negotiations started under Reagan, Carter encouraged the invasion.
uhhh? you are quoting the Iranian news? for crying out loud this is puke....
why don't you just go over to Teheran and stay...
unfrigginbelievable....
Posted by john wayne on :
I know we couldn't back Iran, that is my point. if Iran is facing Iraq, what choice did we have but to support saddam? You mean Rove manipulates Iran's media? There's where your wrong. it is run by the illluminati!!!
Posted by Griffon on :
you guys have been ROVED, bad.. you have formulated opinions with only a small portion of the facts...
Karl Rove is no one I consult, however I should also point out Iran is no friend of Rove.
Posted by glassman on :
Face it Glass Carter caved to a political necessity. I am not saying he had an easy choice at the time, but he was our second contact with Saddy. The first I think was Bush senior as CIA director in 1976.
Posted by glassman on :
sadam was a sunni... so are the Sauds... you are way off base.. Carter may have asked Fahd to talk but it was not US policy 'til Reagan made it so.
Posted by Griffon on :
Your source, like mine is selective in its reporting. Some has never come out. Fortunately, I have three liberal sources and three Arab sources. In what 5 minutes?
Posted by glassman on :
So you hate Iran? Fair enough try this one:
i recognise them as our enemy...
due to luck? i wasn't living in Iran when the hostages were taken,, you guys have an agenda here, and i am beginning to wonder if you aren't Iranians...
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: Your source, like mine is selective in its reporting. Some has never come out. Fortunately, I have three liberal sources and three Arab sources. In what 5 minutes?
you can shove your arab sources up your azz...
this stuff you are posting is propaganda from our enmey...
Posted by john wayne on :
Don't think you need to see it to understand what I'm saying. Would you agree that War makes strange bedfellows?
Posted by glassman on :
from your own BULLSIT:
The irony of the situation of course is that while Jimmy Carter, a Democrat, did start the war; Ronald Reagan, a Republican, was the one that finally ended up supporting the Mullahs and selling arms to both Iran and Iraq. The deaths caused by 9/22 can therefore be attributed to both sides of the American political divide.
carter started the war... LOL... you guys are on some really bad dope..
Posted by Griffon on :
Wow, that's stretching a long ways to defend an indefensible and really you make too much of the Sunni-Shi'a relationship because you have watched Iraq and made assumptions. Here's another post by the way
you live in Iowa? right....
Posted by john wayne on :
Woahh now wait a minute. Iranians? What would you guess our agenda as Christians/Iranians is?
Posted by glassman on :
what? more third tier websites to support your poor excuse for an argument? LOL...
GWU is PEER reviewd.... not some Iranian propaganda site...
Posted by john wayne on :
Glassman- If I am an iranian why would I say US was right to support Iraq?
Posted by glassman on :
i think you are both liars...
either that or too stupid to read facts and determine simple truths...
i know Reagan screwed up. but carter did nothing to support the Iran Iraq war as far as AMERICAN history is concerned... maybe Iranian history....
Posted by Griffon on :
How exactly are we liars? Did we not post evidenciary documentation? Trouble with the websites? Or is it just something you hadn't heard? It is known throughout Palestine.
Posted by john wayne on :
Why am I a liar?
Well a few hours ago we were Christians, now we are Iranians. In Iran we would be executed for publically stating our Christian beliefs.
Posted by glassman on :
go there then...
you post their propaganda...
look at the sources of your data.. it's them...
Reagan signed the document that legally supported Sadam... before that? we as nation were not suporting them the SOVIETS were...
Reagan did that...
you post lies and say they are "evidence"? idiotic
Posted by Griffon on :
"i know Reagan screwed up. but carter did nothing to support the Iran Iraq war as far as AMERICAN history is concerned... maybe Iranian history...."
well it was just released two years ago so you will hear about it in American texts at university. Maybe someday we will be adult as a nation to hear the truth.
Posted by glassman on :
american texts? right... show me a peer reviewed source here.... none of the ones you posted are peer reviewed they are IRANIAN propaganda.
your sources have the same quality as the Enquirer
Posted by Griffon on :
"you post lies and say they are "evidence"? idiotic"
Now friend, how do you know it's a lie? And where have I called you an idiot? I do not objectify you, I just post the facts. Don't worry though it hasn't changed my view of Carter. He still had a tough decision to make. I am a little concerned that you have been socially-conditioned to distrust all Persians. That vexes me, I am sorely vexed. The leadership is out on a limb, but the people and the scholars are top-notch.
Posted by glassman on :
quite frankly? i think you are sick...
Posted by glassman on :
Persians? you are an ass...
i could cuss in Farsi before you were born...
Persians are not who took over Iran...
Posted by john wayne on :
Glassman - What is the rule here? First we can't talk about Clinton because that was old news, but we can talk about Bush's service during Vietnam, now we can talk about 1983, but we can't talk about Stalin and Roosevelt. Why can we not talk about history here? Now you can argue relevance but that is an opinion. What is the relevance of the Rumsfeld /Hussein picture? What is the significance if it was Reagan or Carter or Truman that started a relationship with Iraq?
You know why that relationship was started, yet you continue to try to make political hay out of it.
Posted by glassman on :
i hope everybody reading this thread realises that we have a real problem in this country...
i don't know where these cretins come from, but i do know that they are willing to grasp any straw to somehow justify their sad position...
Posted by Griffon on :
"your sources have the same quality as the Enquirer"
really! Now that's funny! All day long I post citations and then when one touches you and causes some cognitive dissonance, you change the expectation of sources to American peer reviewed.
But regardless, the only challenge to your view of history is that Carter made the first, and indirect, contact with Saddam on Chief Exective level. I am not suggesting in any of this that Carter formalized anything with Hussein. I am only saying he went through the House of Saud to give a green light to invasion. I agree with everything you said about the Reagan era. Never contradicted it. Just pointing out the Carter "green light" to Saddy's invasion. That's not formal, no treaty, just mentioning that the trail goes back to Carter.
Posted by glassman on :
no JW, i actually care about thetruth, and the facts...
you do not...
i told you. i enlisted when a friend of mines father was taken hostage in the Embassy.. you would recognise his name if you had any brains.. i don't expect you would..
you are posting Iranian (not Persian) propaganda as truth..
Posted by john wayne on :
sad position of what? My God we are quibbling over something that even I admit is irrelevant. What is your opinion on which hand we should have been shaking in 1983, Iran or Iraq? What I can't understand is why you are trying to make political hay over a picture taken in 1983 with a guy fighting our 2nd biggest enemy. That is my only stake in this race.
As I asked earlier and will ask for the third time, doesn't war make strange bed fellows?
Posted by Griffon on :
"i don't know where these cretins come from, but i do know that they are willing to grasp any straw to somehow justify their sad position..."
Cretin is a nice sentiment. Not angry, not spiteful I am sure but I am not making a point here, I am helping you be historically accurate. Why would it be bad for you if the relationship began informally under Carter?
Posted by john wayne on :
Glassman- A picture of Stalin and Roosevelt is iranian propoganda? How?
Posted by glassman on :
bad for me? it isn't bad for me... it doesn't matter if Carter started it or not...
the problem is that you are posting more than just carters name read those papers... somehtin' ain't right, and it's NOT ME...
you got how much ejjykashun? and you can't tell propaganda when you see it?
right, George Washington University's National Security Archives is BIASED? LOL
i waste my time here....
Posted by Griffon on :
Let's see since we posted evidence about Carter-Iraq, I have been called Cretin, brain-less, a duck, an ass, sick, liar, Iranian, screwed-up. Which is it Glass, are we polite to each other or do we name cll. I forget.
And I am sorry that your relative was party of the hostage crisis. But that doesn't change history.
Posted by glassman on :
you post links to iranian news and say history is changed? you called a web-site evidence?
you earned the names...
we are and have been at war with Iran for a long, long time...
wake up...
Posted by Griffon on :
i waste my time here....
Why because we don't agree about an event from nearly 30 years ago? That's the problem with this country Glass, we can't dialog without getting mad. We're a nation of self-righteous dweebs. And your hatred is showing through sadly. Get some fresh air and come back. It helped me today.
Posted by Griffon on :
"we are and have been at war with Iran for a long, long time..."
things can change, but the anger and hate we feel for each other must fade.
Posted by glassman on :
no, my my hatred is not what you see...
it's my frustration that we are wasting space in our education system on fools like you..
and you preach in front of real people too?
Posted by Griffon on :
And I am awake! Wide awake. Going to the Middle East opened my eyes. When were you there?
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: "we are and have been at war with Iran for a long, long time..."
things can change, but the anger and hate we feel for each other must fade.
Iran declared war on US. we have been tolerating their impertinance for too long... and they grow bolder and bolder...
Posted by Griffon on :
"no, my my hatred is not what you see... it's my frustration that we are wasting space in our education system on fools like you.. and you preach in front of real people too?"
My friend, that's pretty much hate. Yes I preach "if your neighbor strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." I teach that old systems of conquest must die to new ways of peace-building.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: And I am awake! Wide awake. Going to the Middle East opened my eyes. When were you there?
there? if i told you ? i'd have to kill you...
so you met the ayatolahs and they told you everything is going to be alright?
Posted by john wayne on :
Speaking of sources Glassman, what was your source for the 2004 election post? Pretty shaky. Did I take you at your word when you said you didn't really read anything else on the site? Anything else being the long list of atrocities your source said American troops were committing. Your service to your country I respect, your devotion to your friend was admirable, just question a source you used before too.
Now you use my brother's link to call us iranians? What conclusion did I draw from the link you used that day? None. I kept an open mind.
I would say we all have used a shady source or two to justify a position. Agree?
Posted by Griffon on :
"Iran declared war on US. we have been tolerating their impertinance for too long... and they grow bolder and bolder..."
That's quite an imperialist observation on your part.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: "no, my my hatred is not what you see... it's my frustration that we are wasting space in our education system on fools like you.. and you preach in front of real people too?"
My friend, that's pretty much hate. Yes I preach "if your neighbor strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." I teach that old systems of conquest must die to new ways of peace-building.
like i said? you go back over there and hang with the ayatolahs then tell me that...
you still have a lot to learn...
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: "Iran declared war on US. we have been tolerating their impertinance for too long... and they grow bolder and bolder..."
That's quite an imperialist observation on your part.
so? in case you haven't noticed? they are about ready to roll into Lebanon right now to kill the hezbolah terrorists... and i hope they get them all...
they take our people hostage
Posted by john wayne on :
Cause I flat out tell you right now, I cannot stand Iran period. I am with you on that Glassman. In fact in my weaker moments Griff has had to talk me down from steamrolling the whole middle east. Remember what I told you after 9/11 Griff?
Posted by Griffon on :
I just have to ask why this is such a sticking point to you. Carter did everything he could to bring the hostages home. He ws and remains a great humanitarian and a wonderful Baptist. This takes nothing away from him at all. It just clarifies history.
Posted by john wayne on :
In my weaker moments I STILL think that way about the Middle East. Fortunately I talk myself out of those angry thoughts.
Posted by Griffon on :
Yeah bro' you and I hugely argued over your desire to turn the whole Middle East into a sea of glass.
Posted by glassman on :
the truth issue is important..
if carter tried ILLEGALLY to support a war against people who took our embassy hostage fine by me...
but don't try to tell me that our Natl Security Archive is not the final word on the subject based on some Iranina newspapers... that is stooopid..
and i'm not anti-war i'm anti-stupidity..and we've seen plenty of that come out the current admin...
go re-read those rags you posted.. they are put out by our enemy...
Posted by glassman on :
The U.S. had already ended, when the shah fell, previously massive military sales to Iran. In 1980 the U.S. broke off diplomatic relations with Iran because of the Tehran embassy hostage crisis; Iraq had broken off ties with the U.S. during the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.
My friend, National Security Archive is a great resource, but it is not yet complete on that era. The day will come and I look forward to the day. I grant the truth issue is important agreed 100%, but if you were to find out Carter talked to Saddy through Sauds it would not have been illegal and how would it affect your feelings of that time period and President. For me it doesn't change it at all except to make me feel greater respect for the man. To me, knowing he tried to get those hostages out with every resource he had.
Posted by glassman on :
its your sources that suck, and i mean they suck bad..
Posted by glassman on :
LOL even Carter himself denies it...
In 1980, President Carter termed Iranian charges of U.S. complicity "patently false." He mentioned Iraq's invasion only briefly in his memoirs, in the context of an unexpected mid-September hostage initiative from a Khomeini in-law, Sadeq Tabatabai. "Exploratory conversations [in Germany] were quite encouraging," President Carter wrote about that approach, but he added: "As fate would have it, the Iraqis chose the day of [Tabatabai's] scheduled arrival in Iran, September 22, to invade Iran and to bomb the Tehran airport. Typically, the Iranians accused me of planning and supporting the invasion." Posted by Griffon on :
And yet Glass we know George Bush senior was in Iraq in or around 1976 as director of CIA
Posted by Griffon on :
Go back and read my source Glass, it tells you they will deny but the evidence is there in Brezhinski's record.
Posted by glassman on :
Speaking of sources Glassman, what was your source for the 2004 election post?
which post?
Posted by john wayne on :
Give me a minute.... here. one more chance to say that we should not judge eachother by one link?
Posted by glassman on :
Haig's written report contained no other details about the "green light," and Haig declined my request for an interview about the Talking Points. But the paper represented the first documented corroboration of Iran's long-held belief that the United States backed Iraq's 1980 invasion.
rumors and innuendo...
Carter says we won't mind... BFD
Posted by glassman on :
In the report, Haig wrote that he was impressed with "bits of useful intelligence" that he had learned. "Both [Egypt's Anwar] Sadat and [Saudi Prince] Fahd [explained that] Iran is receiving military spares for U.S. equipment from Israel." This fact might have been less surprising to President Reagan, whose intermediaries allegedly collaborated with Israeli officials in 1980 to smuggle weapons to Iran behind President Carter's back.
But Haig followed that comment with another stunning assertion: "It was also interesting to confirm that President Carter gave the Iraqis a green light to launch the war against Iran through Fahd." In other words, according to Haig's information, Saudi Prince Fahd (now King Fahd) claimed that President Carter, apparently hoping to strengthen the U.S. hand in the Middle East and desperate to pressure Iran over the stalled hostage talks, gave clearance to Saddam's invasion of Iran. If true, Jimmy Carter, the peacemaker, had encouraged a war.
not evidence rumor...
Posted by Griffon on :
its your sources that suck, and i mean they suck bad..
The claim of Carter’s “green light” for the invasion was made by senior Arab leaders, including King Fahd of Saudi Arabia, to President Reagan’s first secretary of state, Alexander Haig, when Haig traveled to the Middle East in April 1981, according to “top secret” talking points that Haig prepared for a post-trip briefing of Reagan.
Haig wrote that he was impressed with “bits of useful intelligence” that he had learned. “Both [Egypt’s Anwar] Sadat and [Saudi then-Prince] Fahd [explained that] Iran is receiving military spares for U.S. equipment from Israel,” Haig noted. “It was also interesting to confirm that President Carter gave the Iraqis a green light to launch the war against Iran through Fahd.”
Haig’s “talking points” were first disclosed at Consortiumnews.com in 1995 after I discovered the document amid records from a congressional investigation into the early history of the Reagan administration’s contacts with Iran. At that time, Haig refused to answer questions about the “talking points” because they were still classified. Though not responding to direct questions about the “talking points,” Carter has pooh-poohed other claims that he gave Saddam encouragement for the invasion.
Posted by glassman on :
and finally?Not surprisingly, Carter administration officials deny they gave Iraq a "green light" for its September 22, 1980 invasion. Yet there is evidence that they did just that. On April 14, 1980, five months before Iraq's invasion, Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Carter's National Security Advisor, signaled the U.S.'s willingness to work with Iraq: "We see no fundamental incompatibility of interests between the United States and Iraq...we do not feel that American- Iraqi relations need to be frozen in antagonisms." In June, Iranian students revealed a secret memo from Brzezinski to then-Secretary of State Cyrus Vance recommending the "destabilization" of Iran's Islamic Republic via its neighbors.
again? this is nothing more than saying we won't stop you... no empowerment at all....
Posted by glassman on :
you know the sources i'm talking about... the iranian (not Persian) news sources...
Posted by glassman on :
post the quote you want referenced, i'll check it tomorrow... it's late now...
iranain news for crying out loud...
in spite of the other pages you posted? Reagan is still the one who signed orders, Carter never did anything but say he'd look the other way...
Posted by Griffon on :
Three American sources confirming it happened. My friend, you want it to be rumor, but clearly as far back as '81 it had surfaced. It happened. Now we aren't going to agree on this. You cognitively need to have Carter not connected with Saddy. He's not directly in either perspective so I am not sure why you cling with such desparation to something that is shrouded in deep, dark NSA files until the relevant persons are dead. That I can accept here could be good and sincere people of Iranian and Americn persuasions that know it's true is enough for me until the day comes when the truth comes to light.
Posted by Griffon on :
Here are the original talking points posted for us to view:
Read 'em quick they make typewriters like the one that wrote these memos anymore.
Posted by glassman on :
You cognitively need to have Carter not connected with Saddy bull...you don't know what you are talking about..
what i do need is good references... you posted none... i am sick of all the rumors the internet spreads...
i check and double check...
Carter did not support the war... support in my book is funding... he may very well have whispered OK go ahead, but that is not support...
based on your sources? the GOP (and these are people Bush has appointed right now) was dealing directly with the Iranians before the election, do you stand by that too? cuz that's pretty friggin bad..
cutting deals like that to get in office.... you believe that?
Posted by Griffon on :
Declassified, top secret, sensitive from that above site, from Sadat and Fahd:
"It was interesting to confirm that President Carter gave the Iraqis a green light to launch the war against Iran through Fahd."
Posted by Griffon on :
"Carter did not support the war... support in my book is funding... he may very well have whispered OK go ahead, but that is not support..."
So why does it hurt you so that he gave the okay? I notice you changed the rules there. You decided to define what support means. If it helps you accept the truth that Carter gave the okay, that's as close to agreeing as we're going to get. The quote I just posted is from the photo of the report and the green light was given. We both agree it was not material.
Posted by john wayne on :
Member Rated: posted 07-03-2006 11:39 PM Come on Glassman- this source is a joke. Check it out guys. Look at some of the crap this site prints: ABOUT OUR BRAVE TROOPS IN IRAQ!
US Collusion with Iraqi Death Squads US Apache Helicopter massacring Iraqis Fallujah: US War Crimes There's more:
"Just before the U.S. forces attacked Qaim last 29 August, a thriving town of 150,000 people in western Iraq, they cordoned it off, cut electricity, water and food supplies. Then they indiscriminately and disproportionately blanketed the town, from the ground and from the air, with artillery shells, cluster bombs and napalm bombs with the full knowledge that civilians, particularly women and children, would be killed."
Is this support of our troops? Remember the party line is we support our troops but not the war. How is this supporting our troops? And this one really ticks me off:
"This November marks the one-year anniversary of the fascist destruction of the vibrant city of Fallujah, where more than 6,000 innocent men, women and children were deliberately massacred by U.S. forces. The city, where some 50,000 civilians stayed in their homes, including men aged 15 to 55 years (prevented from leaving before the attack), was savagely attacked with chemical bombs, fire bombs (fuel-air bombs), napalm and other non-conventional weapons (WMD)".
Your response -
actually? i didn't read that junk till you posted it... gloablresearch has quite few articles that are crap, now that you point it out? i don't agree with much of what they post.... but? they do have a right to post their views don't they? do you have any idea how many pages i googled and skimmed thru yesterday looking for a single link to find out how many counties in Ohio had diebold voting machines? LOL i didn't bother to look thru the whole gloabreseacrh website... but i see you did a tleast part of it...
Posted by john wayne on :
Man you post alot on here Glassman. Took me an hour to find this.
Now how about agreeing that person shouldn't be judged by one link?
Posted by john wayne on :
Oh and my response - no name calling, confusion, but no name calling and an open mind
"I take you at your word when you say you used to be a republican. But man you must have made a heck of a transformation to have wound up reading this junk. I don't know what to think about you Glassman. It's too bad because I was having a good time debating on this site without the usualy shouting and name calling. Now I don't know man, I think I will go back to the food thread for a while.
Have a good 4th of July Glassman. And remember we are celebrating only because of those that died for our freedoms. GOD BLESS ALL OF OUR TROOPS!"
-------------------- Thnaks Matto. Thanks Juice.
Posted by john wayne on :
Well boys in the interest of fairness, it would appear that Glassman has retired for the night and I don't think we should continue the discussion until he can respond. Sorry it took me so long to find that link Glassman, I did not mean to post it after you went to bed.
Very enjoyable discussion tonight. I enjoyed exchanging ideas. Wish it wouldn't have taken hours but that is the price we pay to discuss ideas.
is clearly and plainly from a country that defines itself as our enemy.... and it is clearly an article thumbing it's nose at US Americans... it says effyou ...so i told you where to get off...
New information, coming out of events related to the recent invasion of Iraq suggest that Saddam did not act alone.
there's your source: and we are fighting Iran in Iraq right now....
this is not some political game... people are dying...and more will... hezbolah is the fist of iran...
Iran is trying to buy time to build nuke weapons and this article is part of their propaganda campaign to make Americans wonder, how did they put it? It is my firm belief that if the average American voter knew of these acts by their leaders, tragedies like this war would not be repeated.
yeah, that's what popped my cork on you last night, and you had it coming...
cuz Iran has declared itself our enemy...
my article? was in a journal that had many other articles that i don't agree with... but? the article that i posted the link to was not full of fluff or chit..
it talked about affadavits.. it quotes people directly by name... it cover motions filed in court... it covers congressional testimony...
i told you i was gonna hold you acountable on your references and citations...
JW, i don't wanna NUKE iran...
i am against nuke proliferation...
i am UNAFRAID of doing what we have to do to maintain long-term world NUKULAR peace...
that includes telling dubya i don't want him to have nuke bunker busters..
and? as i have been trying to tell yuo?
sadam wanted to invade iran with or without our permission .... he did it because they were politically disorganised... and he was an opotunist.... if carter said he could go? i could care less..
Reagan is the one that provided support... those are the facts... sadam also thought he was greenlighted on the kuwait invasion... obviously he was mistaken...
i scrutinize your posts because i think you are disingenuous...
your topic titles are insulting and inflammatory..
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Glassman - on my sane days, which believe it or not is 99% of the time, I do not want to nuke Iran either. But once in a while I do get frustrated and blow my stack, and say many things I later regret.
I think we've milked about all we can out of this one boys.
Posted by ruskin_muskin on :
JW.. you can nuke iran but you cannot talk about nuking DPRK.. why? just because it has nuclear weapons.. to some that plausibility just gives another reason to develop nukes..
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Oh I don't want to nuke anybody. I have weak moments, like all of us.
Posted by ruskin_muskin on :
quote:Originally posted by Johnwayne: Oh I don't want to nuke anybody. I have weak moments, like all of us.
hehe.. guess a weak moment similar to the one felt by Truman
[ July 22, 2006, 14:39: Message edited by: ruskin_muskin ]
Posted by Griffon on :
there's your source: and we are fighting Iran in Iraq right now....
Cute Glass, except the last evidence I presented was from the Secretary of State commenting in a TOP SECRET document in the NS Archive, from Secretary of State saying that in conversation with one of the principals named in the Carter Iraq connection, there was confirmation that Carter gave a "green light" to Iraq for invasion.
There it is case closed. You don't really have trouble with the sources, you have trouble with the factual information. Simply an historical correction and I endured five hours of name-calling. I posted with integrity information known since 1981 to national security officials and that document points that out. For those who haven't seen it, check out the source that ended the debate this morning on the bottom of page 4 of this thread.
In the end when we adjourned last night, we agreed that Carter offered no material support but that a green light message was given through Prince Fahd to Saddam Hussein. That was not made formal in treaty or arms agreement until Reagan, but the historical record should show Carter was the first Chief Executive to enter into communication with Saddam. And why? Because I believe it was a tough call, but Carter did it to make a last ditch effort to bring the hostages home. I do not think it was a political stunt, I think Carter did what he felt was necessary to get our citizens home. And ultimately that is what I ask of a president. One big reason I wish this president today would have just worked with other powers to get Saddam exiled with money and no right of return.
I mentioed it because until we are ready to confront our history throughout the world, and some of the terrible things we did in the name of the Cold War, we will never be seen as honest brokers in peace negotiations. We have to learn what our history was, warts and all, if we are to have credibility.
Posted by Griffon on :
Here are the original talking points posted for us to view:
I mentioed it because until we are ready to confront our history throughout the world, and some of the terrible things we did in the name of the Cold War, we will never be seen as honest brokers in peace negotiations. We have to learn what our history was, warts and all, if we are to have credibilit
lets talk more about how your sources say the Reagan team was dealing with Iran before they were even elected...
that's more interesting.. that shows people selling their own country for political power...
Carter is a dem... im not... i toldja that before i could care less...
i love the poor poor pitiful me act you put on after you start a topic with Religio-phobia and racism in the party that used to fight for civil rights
you just ain't right boy...
we are sending NON nukular bunker busters to Israel today.. i hope one has Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's name on it...
as long as there's no nukes? i say "let the bodies hit the floor"...
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Oh Sure your not a demeocrat Glassman. You've got stark raving republican written all over your posts. I have seen you do nothing but trash every republican you ever talked about. I know you voted for Bush Sr. Right. And I voted for Dukakis . What is it Bdgee said here last night, If it wks like a duck.....
Posted by glassman on :
lets talk more about how your sources say the Reagan team was dealing with Iran before they were even elected...
that's more interesting.. that shows people selling their own country for political power.
hmmm.... thought that might give you some problems...
see? i was a kid when Nixon got re-elected... my dad was very active in the GOP... until Nixon got smoked... it kinda changed things...
i heard rumors about how the Reagan people were not so "moral" but i always ignored 'em cuz i didn't WANT to believe it...your sources pretty much say Reagan's people were bad... lets talk about how many of the same people are in our govt today...
maybe you'd like to talk about the New American Century?...
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Johnwayne: Oh Sure your not a demeocrat Glassman. You've got stark raving republican written all over your posts. I have seen you do nothing but trash every republican you ever talked about. I know you voted for Bush Sr. Right. And I voted for Dukakis . What is it Bdgee said here last night, If it wks like a duck.....
akshully JW? i ain't lyin' i don't like being lied to...
i dundid my DD... and i found the things i SUSPECTED....
the GOP of today isn't the GOP of Eisenhower...
the "moral majority" is neither...
Posted by glassman on :
wow, quiet?
not big fans of these guys? Elliott Abrams Richard L. Armitage William J. Bennett
funny tho... Cheney worked for Rummsfeld under Reagan... now? he's his boss...
Posted by Johnwayne on :
I'm going to take a stab here Glassman You voted for Ford because you didn't like Carters religious views. You than switched back to Carter because you figured Reagan's religious views weren't much different, and because Reagan was an actor. You then voted for Mondale because of Reagan's religious views. You then voted for Dukakis because Bush was an extension of Reagan. You than had a real dilemma, Bush or Clinton, draft Dodger or religious right. I think you probably didn't vote in that one because I honestly don't see you voting for Clinton. Than you probably voted for Dole because you knew he wouldn't win, he didn't really say much about religion and because by now you believe every crack pot conspiracy theory out there about Clinton, including the "actual proof" that that Clinton was a drug smuggler.
Next you can't vote for Bush (religion) in 2000 and 204 (conspiracy theories plus religion) So two repubs in 30 years. If it walks like a duck..... you sure do a lot of wadling around here.
Posted by Griffon on :
Hey, if I wanted a whitewash, I wouldn't have posted that stuff. Reagan was bad on that one point. He did absolutely wrong. But so did Carter as the real, authentic documentation shows.
Posted by glassman on :
i was too young to vote for Ford...
i voted for Reagan on my first vote...
read the pages...
i ain't quackin buddy...
ask around...i know how to do research...
i score 100% on my reading comprehension...
you vote for whoever the preacher man tells you to vote for?
i shoot rifles for fun, and i'm good... i've alwyas been a GOP...and i never voted for a single dem till Kerry...
i figured out what was going on in early '04 just a few months before everybody else did...
you? you obviously still haven't...
good luck withthat problem...
read the New American Century web site...
the Feuhrer woulda been proud...
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: Hey, if I wanted a whitewash, I wouldn't have posted that stuff. Reagan was bad on that one point. He did absolutely wrong. But so did Carter as the real, authentic documentation shows.
i don't care about carter...
except one thing? he was Navy ring knocker.. i went to school with a lot of them
i toldja... i care about what we are dealing with TODAY...clinton, carter? not the problem...
today's problems? hmmmm....
Posted by Griffon on :
But I have to ask you Glass, why it is more interesting what Reagan did wrong than what Carter did? Party preference? personal crusade? Both were products of their times, and made important decisions that affected our Middle East connections for decades. Both deserve our respect and close scrutiny.
Again I told you in correcting you that the connection began with Carter and ran through George I. Did I omit anyone in that timespan? I pointed out that we are complicit in Saddy's conduct throughout that time. Did that exclude anyone?
Posted by glassman on :
how many times do i have to repeat myself?
the Reagan People that i broguht up are in your white house RIGHT NOW!
are you stooopid?
Posted by bdgee on :
There have been times that Glass... has posted things that met with disagreement or objection and caused him to check into more references or more historical records, which in turn, caused him to restate that thing so as to conform with credible evidence he has found contrary to his original post.
Most often, however, that doesn't happen because Glass... sincerely tries to be accurate in his post and does do the research to back them. Generally, further research almost always confirms his work is right.
Also, Glass.... is good about distinguishing between conclusions he has reached from research and conclusions he bases on preference and belief.
I trust him and I trust his research. I find disturbing any effort to discredit the work he does. I find disgusting that a person or persons would attempt to overwhelm his post with voluminous slanted and questionable sources.
Why does it seem necessary to me to point out that almost any newspaper (not only newspapers) will have columnist from directly opposing political camps and posting some claim or column one of them has published in that paper and attributing that view to the newspaper is simply a lie being told. Moreover, it IS NOT a legitimate reference for anything.
Posted by Griffon on :
For that matter, you chose to bring up Jimmy Carter, not me. You drew the focus to him, not me. I merely want history to reflect the reality whomever is in office. I had very little to do with the fact concerning who was president when situations arose, much like President Carter was not responsible for the Iranian hostage situation as it developed. He was a person caught in a miserable moment in time, when he was being out-politicked by domestic and global opponents in a miserable, tragic situation. Noble person and idealist that he was and is, he has been remembered for things he could not do as president and his Peace Center is a major contribution to the world. And Reagan gave us the fall of Communism. I remember as I watched the Wall fall, his speech to Gorbachev, "Tear down this wall." Could Jimmy Carter have accomplished that? History will never know, but historians have offered alot of answers to that single question.
Posted by Griffon on :
"are you stooopid?"
No I am not, and neither are you, we disagree about the facts. We also disagree about the importance of history. Why do you cling to a matter that is documented by classified documents that have been released, from the era and from an interviewer of Fahd?
"Why does it seem necessary to me to point out that almost any newspaper (not only newspapers) will have columnist from directly opposing political camps and posting some claim or column one of them has published in that paper and attributing that view to the newspaper is simply a lie being told. Moreover, it IS NOT a legitimate reference for anything."
Then read the last Classified document marked Top Secret and ask if it says anything different from what I have asserted. It is fact! And it puts Carter in a good light.
Posted by glassman on :
For that matter, you chose to bring up Jimmy Carter, not me. WRONG; again; big shock... i basically posted a pic of rummy in iraq... i didn't bring up carter you did... go back and read ...
you quoted me right here:page3 of this topic.. "sadam was as much a product of his own culture as he was the Reagan crew..."
and then YOU responded with carter... The link goes from Carter to GB I actually.
you don't even know what you are saying...
i think i see the problem here... you guys think that i am a peacenik defending Carter...
i'm not...
i actually care about my COUNTRY MORE than any party...
i know that's a wierd concept to you since you've been roved... but that's the way it is...
Posted by Griffon on :
today's problems? hmmmm....
grow out of history, do they not? Is the Iran situation something that just developed? Did you not say we have been at war for a long time? Did you not post elsewhere about 1938? It seems to me that you're selective about who is allowed to refer to history. The situation in Iran today is directly related to our dealings with Iran in the 1970's right?
Posted by glassman on :
LOL..... 1938? i posted a pic of henry ford...
you see? i don't JUDGE people like you do...
that's why i keep asking you about the baptists, they are Judgers...
Posted by Griffon on :
My friend, you mentioned the situation starting with Reagan and Bush I, to which I commented it actually goes back to Carter and runs through GB I. Then you said something like Carter make me LOL. To which I gave documented proof. At the end of which you surrendered to the possibility that CArter may have communicated through an intermediary that gave Saddy the green light. In that documentation it also demonstrated that Carter did so because Reagan was dealing with the Mullahs. Now tell me, just how does that qualify as Rove-ified?
Posted by glassman on :
i understand you are confused... you've never run into any real good internet researchers like me before?
it's OK... now go read your assignmment...
i want the whole New American Century site read befoe i get back from the blues club tonight...
who knows? we may go to an orgy afterwards and you'll have all night to report backkk...
Posted by Griffon on :
Who's judging? Your quote, "You've been Rove-fied." Who's judging? Calling me a liar when presented with facts.
"i actually care about my COUNTRY MORE than any party..."
Then we are the same type of person. I care about this country enough to study its history seriously. Enough to present documentation that challenges leaders on both sides.
Posted by glassman on :
if you really care about your country? you'd be worried about the constituion right now... it is in jeapoardy, and if nobody keeps an eye on it? it'll be gone....
Posted by Griffon on :
"you've never run into any real good internet researchers like me before?"
I've seen your research, I need no patronizing, your research is just selective. Some is downright funny when you go to check it out. Mine is genuine because my research is not done on-line. It's done in life and in books.
Hope you have fun tonight and arrive back for debate safely.
Posted by T e x on :
"who knows? we may go to an orgy afterwards and you'll have all night to report backkk..."
Posted by Griffon on :
The constitution is not in jeopardy, we always face security restrictions in time of war. Check our history.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: To leave now would just make way for all out war across the Middle East. Liberal Democrats are not advocating self-determination they are advocating getting our troops out. At this point pulling out would lead to massacre. Like I said, Bush and the Western powers should have bought him off into exile, but now to leave invites ethnic strife. Self-determination for the sake of Sunni, Shi'a and Kurd as well as Marsh Arabs needs to happen in a situation of greater stability.
you are correct about leaving too soon, i have said as much while critisizing Bush for getting US into this mess...
BUT?
the Shia and the Sunnis have a very different plan...
and they don't care one bit what you think....
sadam was as much a product of his own culture as he was the Reagan crew... you are an idealist...
the person who emerges to lead iraq, if iraq survves as a nation, is not going to be any better...
human nature...
here is where things "went off course" want to try a different tack?
that IS RUMSFELD isn't it?
you diverted the thread to Carter...
Carter told Faud to tell sadam he could do whatever he wanted to OUR ENEMY? GOOD!!!!
now? move on to these guys...
LOL
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: "you've never run into any real good internet researchers like me before?"
I've seen your research, I need no patronizing, your research is just selective. Some is downright funny when you go to check it out. Mine is genuine because my research is not done on-line. It's done in life and in books.
Hope you have fun tonight and arrive back for debate safely.
you are the patronizing a-hole here b-52 or whatever, i just send it right back to you...
i have barely started shredding you...
i sugest you re-read at the picture of the Four Riders of the Apocolypse...
Posted by Griffon on :
Glass, I know we disagree, that is what fills libraries and makes class fun. If history were not subject to discussion and interpretation, then the victors would be the only voice we heard. The time has come for us to hear a more balanced view.
I do not dislike you personally for your perspective, I disagree with your conclusions. As an academic, I understand there is a place for discussion like this forum, and there is a place for research. The internet is not the place for research in specifics, as the Conspiracy Theory thread demonstrates. True research, academic research, is found in books, field reports and classrooms.
The difference between us is that I see these forums as a place to exchange ideas, to encourage vigorous discussion, to be provocative at times, and at the end of the day to be a fun diversion. I am not afraid to be proven wrong, but I can assure you internet research will rarely do that. It may give us reason to differ, but that's okay. We moderates are used to being called names from the left and the right.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: "Carter did not support the war... support in my book is funding... he may very well have whispered OK go ahead, but that is not support..."
So why does it hurt you so that he gave the okay? I notice you changed the rules there. You decided to define what support means. If it helps you accept the truth that Carter gave the okay, that's as close to agreeing as we're going to get. The quote I just posted is from the photo of the report and the green light was given. We both agree it was not material.
see? right there? you are trying to make out like i care about carter cuz you don't understand that carter means nothing to me.. i was pissed cuz you are posting links to IRANEWS... and calling them DD...
Posted by Griffon on :
"you are the patronizing a-hole here b-52 or whatever, i just send it right back to you...
i have barely started shredding you...
i sugest you re-read at the picture of the Four Riders of the Apocolypse..."
Why is it that you ridicule religion so much and yet throw its images at me? Why the language of hatred? Why am I patronizing?
Posted by glassman on :
to be provocative at times in other words? you have no moral integrity in what you post..
Posted by Griffon on :
"see? right there? you are trying to make out like i care about carter cuz you don't understand that carter means nothing to me.. i was pissed cuz you are posting links to IRANEWS... and calling them DD..."
Were they not born out in the Sec. of State's talking points? A classified document until later?
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: "you are the patronizing a-hole here b-52 or whatever, i just send it right back to you...
i have barely started shredding you...
i sugest you re-read at the picture of the Four Riders of the Apocolypse..."
Why is it that you ridicule religion so much and yet throw its images at me? Why the language of hatred? Why am I patronizing?
LOL can you read?
i said you are a patronising a-hole, go read your own writings....
d'oh he's got an iq of 180...sheeyit
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: "see? right there? you are trying to make out like i care about carter cuz you don't understand that carter means nothing to me.. i was pissed cuz you are posting links to IRANEWS... and calling them DD..."
Were they not born out in the Sec. of State's talking points? A classified document until later?
"born out"? possibly...
you posted from unreliable sources pictures that are purported to be Haig's notes.
see? you just can't talk about YOUR BUSH president you just want to talk about carter and clinton...
Posted by Griffon on :
"in other words? you have no moral integrity in what you post.."
Not at all what I said, Glass get some air and calm down. Provocative is a term that in this case means "promotes discussion." I think you would have to agree I promote discussion. As to moral integrity, since none of us have reached perfection none of us have complete moral integrity. So you and I are in the same boat: we can have perfect love for God and neighbor. I don't care if you are a straight Democrat. That's fine, just note how it colors your perspective. Embrace apoliticism and take the blinders off
Posted by Griffon on :
Well, I haven't commented about Clinton here because he doesn't apply. When he does apply in threads I do. Obviously you voted for Carter as I did.
Posted by glassman on :
As to moral integrity, since none of us have reached perfection none of us have complete moral integrity. So you and I are in the same boat: we can have perfect love for God and neighbor. I don't care if you are a straight Democrat. That's fine, just note how it colors your perspective. Embrace apoliticism and take the blinde :patronising a-hole again;
rummy gave sadam a kiss i bet....
thats what they do over there.. too bad we don't have pic of that...
we have one of Bush kissing Faud somewhere.... i'll see if i can find it...
LOL hows that grab your collar preacherman?
Posted by Griffon on :
"you posted from unreliable sources pictures that are purported to be Haig's notes."
In other words I used a source that contradicts you. That's the real rub, isn't it. This ain't a BBQ boy.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: "you posted from unreliable sources pictures that are purported to be Haig's notes."
In other words I used a source that contradicts you. That's the real rub, isn't it. This ain't a BBQ boy.
nope, i said i would consider an unreliable source...
GWU is NOT anunreliable source...they are peer reviewed...
Posted by Griffon on :
You keep calling me a patronizing.... I don't think you know what that word means.
Posted by glassman on :
condescending
Posted by Griffon on :
GWU is NOT anunreliable source...they are peer reviewed...
Yeah, yeah...just where the declassified document came from. Hmmmm....is there a problem here? You are selective in your research because you are towing the Democratic line...only critical of Republicans. I post blasting them both but not you. That's because I am apolitical. The Hillary criticism is only based on her Methodist religion. Either that or you just want to throw people off the scent. You gotta take the political blinders off.
Posted by glassman on :
bye bye... i got a date....
New American Century? then tell me we are being led by a fine moral crowd...
read about Edward Bennett
Posted by Griffon on :
"condescending"
no I really don't think you know what it means
Posted by Griffon on :
Congrats! As I said have a good night and I look forward to debating later. Read Ilan Pappe
Posted by glassman on :
I post blasting them both but not you. That's because I am apolitical. The Hillary criticism is only based on her Methodist religion.
you have a persecution complex which is clouding your judgement of me in particular and probably the world... did i mention i'm an amateur psychologist too?
Posted by Griffon on :
Never said we are led by a fine moral crowd did I. Scan my posts Glass, I know I never, ever said that. Because I do not believe that. You're putting words in my mouth again. You know we are never going to agree and staying on-line before a date or staying up til 3am arguing a dead horse and then getting to the point where you lob epithets at me is a little obsessive on your part.
Really saying: " i have barely started shredding you...I sugest you re-read at the picture of the Four Riders of the Apocolypse..."
That's taking this issue a little too far Glass, the imagery speaks for itself, and frankly the reading is so far off base. My suggestion to you: I will re-read your little diatribe if you read Revelations. Remember the focal question of the suffering around Galatia was "How long oh Lord until you will end the suffering?" Honestly, you insult Christianity so much, I am puzzled why you would even associate with the Christian imagery?
Posted by Griffon on :
did i mention i'm an amateur psychologist too?
good I'm licensed as a Counsellor. What is your assesment of the Four Horsemen imagery?
Posted by Griffon on :
So Glass are you at all into exploring Jungian archetypes? Or are you Rogerian? What era was your psychlogical study in? I would suspect you like Jung.
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: did i mention i'm an amateur psychologist too?
good I'm licensed as a Counsellor. What is your assesment of the Four Horsemen imagery?
Grant Rice was good, and so was the backfield. But he--along with Ring Lardner--opened a door to hyperbolic imagery that should have been shut almost immediately. Sportswriting has suffered ever since...I mean, really... ND beat Army that day, but 13-7? c'mon...
Posted by Griffon on :
Bdgee where'd you go. I show up and you leave after one post. You know I said preachers should never advocate candidates. I called it clergy malpractice. The same is true for teachers preaching party indoctrination in the classroom. Don't you agree?
Posted by Griffon on :
"Grant Rice was good, and so was the backfield. But he--along with Ring Lardner--opened a door to hyperbolic imagery that should have been shut almost immediately. Sportswriting has suffered ever since...I mean, really... ND beat Army that day, but 13-7? c'mon..."
I agree Tex!
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Griffon, I urge you to read The Project for the New American Century's report: 'Rebuilding America's Defenses' from 2000.
I find any disdain directed toward these evil people to be justified, for theirs is a wet-dream of endless war.
From the report: "...Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor." Their dream of a catalyzing event could not have been better actualized than in the events of 9/11.
Note the PNAC signers: Elliott Abrams, Gary Bauer, William J. Bennett, Jeb Bush, Dick Cheney, Eliot A. Cohen,Midge Decter, Paula Dobriansky, Steve Forbes, Aaron Friedberg, Francis Fukuyama, Frank Gaffney, Fred C. Ikle, Donald Kagan, Zalmay Khalilzad, I. Lewis Libby, Norman Podhoretz, Dan Quayle, Peter W. Rodman, Stephen P. Rosen, Henry S. Rowen, Donald Rumsfeld, Vin Weber, George Weigel and Paul Wolfowitz.
(Yep, even Scooter is there! LOL)
Posted by bdgee on :
Gordon,
He can read, but he can't comprehend. That's a normal result when the mind is in constant bias.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Mind stuck in wrong, huh?
LOL
Posted by bdgee on :
Stuck in the wrong gear.......goin bassakards....
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
I thought I smelled burning tranny fluid. Posted by Griffon on :
I agree Gordon, though they did not have prior knowledge as some suppose. I know many have misunderstood my perspective on this war. My real preference was that we would do like we did in Haiti, buy Saddam off into exile with no right of return.
I think they had a one-track mind that would never have considered that. And that is my main criticism of this administration. We could have found a price Saddam would have accepted if we rattled sabers instead of using them.
Alot of the trouble there comes from not understanding Arab/Muslim culture and I would say the last president that understood how to relate to Arab culture was Carter. He really knew the subtle nuances of navigating between Arab etiquette and Israeli etiquette.
One thing that will go un-noticed in this recent round of diplomacy is that someone in this administration, definitely not Bush, but someone knew to keep the rhetoric ratcheted down until contacting Arab leaders privately about the situation. 15 years ago Egypt and Saudi Arabia would never have openly criticized Hezbollah and Syria, and Jordan would not have been harsh. Someone knew how to be diplomatic and let the Arab leaders lead.
Now on the other hand I think they had a price for that public act: free trade with Oman. That's just a suspicion and I really personally wish we had given the UAE the port deal rather than Oman. Much better security people in UAE. I am sure they also put a timeline on Israel's aggression. I would guess Condi will come back with the news of whether Israel's done, if Israel has accomplished the objectives and Bush will come out and call for a truce then Israel will end the aggression.
But this one "success" in foreign policy came from someone who knew how to work like Carter did. Again this is conjecture, not any insider information.
Posted by Griffon on :
"He can read, but he can't comprehend. That's a normal result when the mind is in constant bias."
No such bias Bdgee, you answer my question about teachers yet? Should they be allowed to instruct students in political party indoctrination?
Posted by Griffon on :
"He can read, but he can't comprehend. That's a normal result when the mind is in constant bias."
What a blessing to have you back Bdgee! Since I am apolitical, I am free of bias, except to the center. There is a certain freedom to that.
Posted by bdgee on :
BS
Posted by john wayne on :
Bdgeee- Listen old chap, I'm sure we will tangle many times on here because we just flat out see things differently, But.... I followed your instructions to a tee and successfully made my first edible brisquet tonight. it took me 17 hours to get the thing tender enough, but the wait was worth it. Thanks again and now we can go back to being at each other's throats.
I'm not staying on long tonight guys. i was on here til 3am and then put the brisquet on at 4am, than got jumped on by my boys at 6am. Dog tired.
Posted by bdgee on :
Yep, luscous stuff when done right....
Posted by Griffon on :
I did answer that it is malpractice for clergy to lobby a congregation publicly or privately. That applies to Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton most obviously, but to every one of us as people of the cloth. Do teachers have that same standard?
Posted by Griffon on :
B"S"
No bs Bdgee, I am not afraid to be disagreed with. You are a blessing, because you help me work on spiritual discipline to love my neighbor, even when s/he e-strikes my cheek.
"Yep, luscous stuff when done right...."
Then you believe teachers should not make comments like:
"The administration is run by Nazis" because that is expressing a personal opinion as an authority figure in childrens' lives and it unduly influences them?
Posted by john wayne on :
I think the lucious line was directed at my brisquet griff.
Posted by T e x on :
lol, ya--simply a wrong-thread post, I'm sure...
Posted by Griffon on :
You're right Bro' can't always fugure that out. Wondered where the "luscious" came from.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: I agree Gordon, though they did not have prior knowledge as some suppose. I know many have misunderstood my perspective on this war. My real preference was that we would do like we did in Haiti, buy Saddam off into exile with no right of return.
I think they had a one-track mind that would never have considered that. And that is my main criticism of this administration. We could have found a price Saddam would have accepted if we rattled sabers instead of using them.
Alot of the trouble there comes from not understanding Arab/Muslim culture and I would say the last president that understood how to relate to Arab culture was Carter. He really knew the subtle nuances of navigating between Arab etiquette and Israeli etiquette.
heres what's IRONIC and i love irony...
i have posted this basic position that you are posting, here for two years now... except for complimenting carter on his foreign policy... i did defend him based on the fact that he inherited a mess left over form watergate which i feel was a hill of beans...
i actually took a lot of grief for saying, no i stated very strongly hundreds of times, we made a mistake invading iraq... ask anybody who's been here for over a year...
i don't think we made a mistake invading Afghanistan at all... the only mistake we made there that i am aware of is not focusing on rebuilding it more and better... we have wasted a good opportunity there...
the way i have responded to your posts has in fact been determined by the way you post...
i understand it's hard to stop preaching...
you say i accuse you of lying... but you have accused me of many things too... and i find inconsistency in your statements so i say "provactive things" like you do... here you say you agree with Gordon who does NOT think the iraq war was right or justifed, and yet i can find many places where you say the war was justified... you have no real position? or does it change depending on who you are tlking to?... you claim to be apolitical? that too is disingenuous since you are obviously advocating political positions here... look at the title of the thread...
and? you have been very wrong about many things like The internet is not the place for research in specifics
that is just wrong.... i think you say things like this because you lack experience... the internet is the most incredible research tool ever created... it still requires discernment of the reader/interpretor
i posted you a picture i found specifically for YOU and you felt the "need" to lecture me about it... that is condescending...
they say a picture is worth a thousand words... instead of lecturing me? why don't you stop and ponder what i was really trying tell YOU....
it never occurred to you that i am well aware that some people (YOU) are trying to bring about the RETURN by fulfilling certain aspects of revelations did it? or did it and you tried very hard to change the subject? you do that frequently too, when things get "tight"
you have assumed much about me...
i have assumed very little about you because you are not particularly "reserved" in displaying your intentions... but i have made some assumptions that are subject to change as i analyse you further...
i always enjoy watching a person attempt to garner suport by pretending to be persecuted while they are begging for an argument...
it's usually a feminine trait... but Christains learn it from The Book so men sometimes use it...
hezbolah is trying to use it right now to get the UN to sanction Israel
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: I agree Gordon, though they did not have prior knowledge as some suppose.
And you know this... how?
It's well documented that the Bush administration did absolutely nothing to try to prevent a terrorist attack on our soil prior to 9/11.
I believe that they purposely let one happen. It sure helped their agenda.
It's even possible that they participated to some extent. You have to admit it was a pretty sophisticated maneuver; perfectly crashing two planes traveling at very high speeds into two relatively thin structures. And an amazing coincidence that both towers collapsed in an identical way. Almost like a controlled demolition, wouldn't you say?
Where were the fighter jets?
Why wasn't the president immediately taken into protective custody?
Etc. etc. etc.
This is one "conspiracy theory" that warrants more careful study.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Agreed glassman. That's just loony.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: and? you have been very wrong about many things like The internet is not the place for research in specifics
Posted by glassman on :
Gordon, Bush was too courageous to be taken into protective custody... he was trying to read to kids... too bad he didn't have his readin' glasses on, look at the book Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
That's true; I forgot what a courageous man he is.
Love the pic! LOL
Posted by glassman on :
looniness is OK.. i'm the first one to admit i'm an odd person...
it don't bodder me a bit (well most of the time)
i just think griffon is a bit "full of himself"
look here..
To answer your question about waiting for an invitation: I am new to this site and unsure of its etiquette so "Yes" I was waiting for your invite. I am writing this freshly because I need to edit out the academic jargon.
griff... we don't stand on pretense here.... i'm a big fan of Sam Clemens...
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Yeah, looniness beats condescension any day of the week. To find both in the same person is just chilling. Posted by glassman on :
i guess he's gone to bed ....
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
He's got to rest that superior brain... Hee hee hee.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Glassman- What irony are wupposed to see in you supporting Carter? You support every democrat.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Very telling about you Glassman. You sit here and post for a half hour about him after you know he's gone to bed for the night. Real classy guy. Hey he's in church now guys.... I can tell you you are safe for the next few hours....... sneak a few more in.
Posted by Griffon on :
You know, folks, this is a little obsessive on your part, the continuing denigration of me once I leave for the day. Let's have this conversation right now, and let me begin by saying, my initial assertion is sound: Many Democrats cannot tolerate a person with a different viewpoint.
Where did I arrive at this thought?
"bush Family Nazi connection"
"Bush sexually harasses Angela Merkel"
"Bush vetoes first Bill"
"Bush Makes Clearance Decisions"
Go back and look at your discussions. It's all about how much Bush is an idiot, how much you hate him, how much he's a Nazi.
Now as an apolitical person, that kind of language is pretensious, self-righteous, hypocritical from people claiming to be tolerant of other views. In fact, it raises my level of sympathy for the President. So I try to give you a taste of your own medicine: namely I throw insults at the Democrats who claim they do not hate but then blast moderates like me, conservatives like my brother, or any Christians of orthodox theology.
Jordan's first comment to me was, "You're a Christian you have no credibility with me."
As to you comments after I went to bed, since Carter was involved with Saddam, I was ready to move on Friday night as I said in my last post, but then I get this person calling me "a-hole," saying I am condescending: I am condescending when I say after being called a name: bless you! After all, I do not use foul language to speak about someone.
"just think griffon is a bit "full of himself"
look here..
To answer your question about waiting for an invitation: I am new to this site and unsure of its etiquette so "Yes" I was waiting for your invite."
What is "full of myself" in acknowledging that I am not experienced in your etiquette? What is full of myself in waiting as a new-comer to be invited to do something? See you have had little or no challenge to your prevailing assumptions so long you think your way of thinking is what everyone thinks. So when challenges your assumpions you get hot and bothered.
"it's usually a feminine trait... but Christains learn it from The Book so men sometimes use it..."
Now you're just trying to bait me into being upset. I will not fall for your trap, but it does point your hypocricy out rather well.
"hezbolah is trying to use it right now to get the UN to sanction Israel"
Actually, Hezbollah is trying to get the Arab world to rise up as part of that Iranian plan you mentioned a few days ago.
Let me ask, with all that internet "research" you have done, have you ever gone to Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Palestine, Syria, Jordan, Israel or Egypt? How about in the last five years? Internet is good for one thing: beginning research, but try to use internet files as your primary sourcework for graduate studies in most college or graduate programs outside of the study of that field. It is written into their syllabi, rule books, etc. so obviously it's not just a matter of the rules being out of date.
The point is when it comes time to do real research, get down to the nitty gritty, they will ask for primary sources to be one of three things: field research, books/professional journals or e-versions of those materials. You cannot use other material as primary source material, but you can cite them and use them in a secondary capacity.
"i posted you a picture i found specifically for YOU and you felt the "need" to lecture me about it...that is condescending..."
Again not condescention. I was interpreting the picture, not lecturing, though I understand how you took it that way. Your anger at that point, like my frustration was mis-directed. I was seeing what you were suggesting about me and explaining where you are mistaken about me.
"they say a picture is worth a thousand words... instead of lecturing me? why don't you stop and ponder what i was really trying tell YOU...."
Here you are condescending. "It never occurred to you that i am well aware that some people (YOU) are trying to bring about the RETURN by fulfilling certain aspects of revelations did it?"
Here's your mistaken assumption about me. This is an absolute absurd assumption and I would love to hear where you came up with it. I don't even believe in that view of Revelations. Revelation is not written about this event in time; it is written about the Roman Empire. Because it is apocalyptic it has lessons to draw from, most of which are not complementary of the present war and the US role in it. As a post-millenialist, I believe we need to work to make the world more like the Kingdom of God represented in Isaiah Swords into plowshares, lions and lambs, children and adders nests, and in Revelation 21:
"See, the home of God is among mortals. He will dwell with them as their God;c they will be his peoples and God himself will be with them; he will wipe every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; mourning and crying and pain will be no more, for the first things have passed away.”"
That is the society we are working to bring. You just assumed because I am a Christian that your view of eschatology was the one I had. You're lumping me into all that Rapture stuff, which is not Biblical, and a good way to defeat that is to read Barbara Rossing's book, "The Rapture Explained." I believe in the already/not yet tension in the Kingdom reality meaning a partially realized eschatology. In other words, I am: environmentalist, Human Rights centered, believing in the redemption of all creation as an ongoing work.
How does that look? Supporting environmental groups, supporting programs to combat AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa, building wells in Third World countries, Supporting Africa and Mar Elias Universities (Mar Elias is a branch of U of Indianapolis for 9 more years before it may be fully, independently accreditted), building homes in Afghanistan through Habitat for Humanity, building homes in the South and in Appalachia, visiting the sick, home-bound and in prison, and lobbying against genocide and war.
You know this on-going struggle, which I have only maintained in this thread when you were present to respond, is like a scene from an old movie. In Excalibur, King Arthur is riding up to a bridge where Lancelot will let no one pass. I prefer the Monty Python edition of the story but this has the line we both can learn from:
Lancelot to Arthur as they are fighting, (please note I have changed a few words because in our present context they would be considered inflammatory and justly so)"Your anger has unbalanced you, You sir would fight to the death against a person who is not your enemy."
We are metaphorically at that cross-roads, on that bridge. Do we choose to stay in this vicious cycle and let self-righteous indignation win? Or do we choose to take another path, perhaps even the higher ground if you will, around our conflicted opinions of President Carter's actions? Can we see past the perceived slights that are in reality reactions rooted in our deeply held desire for a better world?
Let me allow you to begin defining that new world. And please note I didn't say "new World Order" another image that is not biblical.
Posted by glassman on :
what is this "worry about who's here to respond" crap? i left a message..you got it.. LOL..
persecution complex again...
PS. don't have time to go hang out in other countries these days, i'm too busy raising a family and working on making our country better in my own way...
the internet is the best research tool ever created period...
unless of course, you think your mind is just a tool...
Posted by Griffon on :
Get a life Glass, no persecution complex, you need to take the amateur psy shingle down and read what I posted, as I extended you that courtesy.
Posted by Dustoff 1 on :
Go back and look at your discussions"
more or less stop ped reading right here...
Posted by glassman on :
griff it's complaining... you are a whiner...
instead of ripping the dems (who are basically not in charge of ANYTHING?) we are ripping what we see as a current problem...
Posted by Griffon on :
I did and found myself called how many names? Why? Because despite my effort to say we have come to as much of an agreement as possible and it's time to end it.
Posted by Buford Baucom on :
Hi Griffin,
Thank you for a good post. Your a smart man.
BB
Posted by Griffon on :
See folks look, as a moderate, as a person with the priveledge to present here, I will present a voice that is not oft heard on this board. You are free to disagree. I will defend that right to express myself and your right to express yourself.
Posted by glassman on :
so griff you are the "peace expert" make some peace here....
show US how it's done when faced with a seriously antagonistic opponent....
see? i think you are confused...
you just want to preach to US...
Posted by Sunnyside on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: See folks look, as a moderate, as a person with the priveledge to present here, I will present a voice that is not oft heard on this board. You are free to disagree. I will defend that right to express myself and your right to express yourself.
Zzzzzzzzzzzz
How big of you. Posted by Griffon on :
I am, or rather already did. Define the sides and parameters of the debate (read my controvercial topics), help the opposing parties to express themselves fully, outline the areas of sharpest difference, allow the sides to express themselves through narrative. Draw new balance of understanding. I took the first step of the second to last phase. Read my above post offering us an alternative through a narrative. Do the same to express yourself. The next step from there will be to arrive at a new balance in the site.
I do appreciate greatly the quotations around that phrase. We both know there are no "peace experts" only peace-builders, peace-keepers, peace-practicioners and peace-destroyers.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
That's exactly it.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: griff it's complaining... you are a whiner...
instead of ripping the dems (who are basically not in charge of ANYTHING?) we are ripping what we see as a current problem...
Posted by glassman on :
yep peace destruction is easy...
peace building is hard work... your topics title? show you to be one, or the other...
you say iam this but you behave like that...
that's what draws my fire...
that and posting certain other countries news
the amateur psychologist shingle? that doesn't "come down", we all have to be. just to survive...
you've got yourself a lot of booklearnin' there...
you like to talk about going to the mideast, but as you say? the Ayatolahs in Iran would cut your fool head off if you show up there, that's one way to find peace...
Posted by Griffon on :
"Zzzzzzzzzzzz
How big of you."
Actually, Sunnyside, it's not big of me at all, it's the Democratic impulse our Founders shared with us. It's simple, there are few moderate and conservative voices here and I hear the pride in some posts at chasing them off. Why is that a good thing?
If we mightily disagree, does that mean we should negate each other's voice? Soren Kierkegaard, Christian Existentialist philosopher once said, "If you label me, you negate me." Have we not done enough of that? Labeling Bush as an idiot, labeling Democrats as racists? Did that not get your attention? We all got angry because the labels did not get at who we are. Those labels are caricatures of who we are. And so we lash out. Now observe what is going on throughout the Middle East right now. This is our argument magnified thousands of times over centuries of time.
That said, this has been a wonderful experiment in how conflict begins and I thank you for that.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Griffon: Any response to this? I posted it last night...
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: I agree Gordon, though they did not have prior knowledge as some suppose.
And you know this... how?
It's well documented that the Bush administration did absolutely nothing to try to prevent a terrorist attack on our soil prior to 9/11.
I believe that they purposely let one happen. It sure helped their agenda.
It's even possible that they participated to some extent. You have to admit it was a pretty sophisticated maneuver; perfectly crashing two planes traveling at very high speeds into two relatively thin structures. And an amazing coincidence that both towers collapsed in an identical way. Almost like a controlled demolition, wouldn't you say?
Where were the fighter jets?
Why wasn't the president immediately taken into protective custody?
Etc. etc. etc.
This is one "conspiracy theory" that warrants more careful study.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
You find serious inconsistencies in Griff's posts? You are a walking inconsistincy. Posting all the quotes, links. sources you want does not change the fact that you are a closet democrat interested only in the dem version of any story, while all the while claiming you are/where a republican. Like me claiming I used to be 6'7 but I've shrunk to 5'8. Your game towards my brother is so transparent it's sickening. You are trying to bait him into losing his cool, by referencing orgies and caling him names to prove your no religious nut. Gee like he hasn't seen that before. The truth is Glassman you didn't like my brother from his first post because he wears his religion on his sleeve. And you want religious people over in the corner. gagged. I know being proud of who you are must be difficult for a democrat masquerading as a republican to understand. But not everyone feels the need to hide there true colors.It ain't about a persecution complex. It's about you and your pre conceived notions. You judged him and labelled him from his first post. Face it Glassman it,s not just Griff. You don,t like religious figures. Oh, that's republican religious figures. Funny how you as a repub point out how bad Robertson and Falwell are but fail to mention Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton in the same breath.
As for my brother telling me who to vote for Glassman I thought I already covered that with you. I'm a straight ticket repub. And I have been very honest about that from the minute I got over here. Now what part of that is hard to figure out. Boy was I wrong about you.
Posted by Griffon on :
"instead of ripping the dems (who are basically not in charge of ANYTHING?) we are ripping what we see as a current problem..."
I complain about a loyal opposition who offers no solutions. That's my complaint. They lost control because they offered nothing to effect change. See, it's convenient to label me a whiner, you have a label for anyone who doesn't agree with you.
My point if you actually go back to the beginning was that the Democratic leaders (I said Democrats which is a poor choice of words) offer no solutions. Do you remember when I posted Bishop Palmer's statement? His point was: it's easy to tears something down, but that's going the wrong dirction. We need to put something better in its place. Present case in Iraq. Should the US just leave right now as some Democratic leaders suggested? To do so, as other Democratic leaders have said, would cause massive suffering.
To simply say Bush is wrong or Bush is dumb, is not enough for the Democrats to sy, give us a vision of what the alternative would look, taste, feel and be like. That was the point of the whole thread.
Posted by glassman on :
closet democrat interested only in the dem version LOL... spoken like a true intolerant...
i go where the DD takes me...
i have presented you with the statements made by the perps themselves..
that's not speckeelashun dere in the New American Century budd, that's what they wrote...
to YOU and ME and everybody else... they are like pinky and the brain....
i follow my conscience.. not my party
Posted by glassman on :
they lost control because they offered nothing to effect change
actually?
the at's not why they lost control...
Tom Delay, Jack Abramoff, Carl Rove and a few others is why they lost control..
you take what i been telling you as attacks when i am trying to clue you in as to how the game is being played...
Pat Robertson and Jerry Falweel are the ones creating your religiophobic" oppositition....
rove? he's the brain...
got his start in direct mailing...
direct mailing.. you know? that stuff you use now to put on the floor of the bird cage since newspapers are history? Posted by Griffon on :
"Griffon: Any response to this? I posted it last night..."
Missed that because I was not up. Sorry bout that Gordon. I think it's a conspiracy theory much like the suggestion Clinton had Vince Foster killed. Political opportunism gone mad. I think it's taking an alleged lesson from WWII history and transfering it to the present. But that is my opinion. History will catch up with the truth.
Posted by glassman on :
you see? griff we agree again....
ironic dontcha think? LOL
Posted by john wayne on :
Sure ya do Glassman....... just keep the links and sources coming. That is what, I agree, you are good at. Yu can link and source like none other and that is something to take great pride in. Presenting the true you, well ya got a ways to go on that, But none of us are perfect.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
That's right, glassman. The media-opiated masses are getting used to being told what to think. Present them with opposing quotes, facts, or pictures and they scatter like roaches.
Posted by john wayne on :
Glassman-I see again in the quote above, no mention of Jackson, or Sharpton, my "Republican" brother.
Posted by glassman on :
the true me?
hmmmm.. if i posted my name here? i'd get REAL hate mail like your brother did...
Posted by john wayne on :
Nobody here has scattered yet Gordon. Same thing you said on the Clinton Vietnam thread I wonder, what is your definition of scattered?
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Questioning the Government's roll in 9/11 is political opportunism gone mad?
No, a better description of 'political opportunism gone mad' would be allowing a terrorist attack to happen in order to set the climate for war.
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: "Griffon: Any response to this? I posted it last night..."
Missed that because I was not up. Sorry bout that Gordon. I think it's a conspiracy theory much like the suggestion Clinton had Vince Foster killed. Political opportunism gone mad. I think it's taking an alleged lesson from WWII history and transfering it to the present. But that is my opinion. History will catch up with the truth.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by john wayne: Glassman-I see again in the quote above, no mention of Jackson, or Sharpton, my "Republican" brother.
i ain't your brother...that's pretty obvious...
do you wear a pointy white on fri nights?
i could care less about them...
they are peripheral players i don't even know what they claim as their paltform...and don't care...
i follow my parties politics, and i would follow the dems if they were in charge...they aren't...
Posted by john wayne on :
Well no one deserves hate mail Glassman. Feel free to keep your anonymity, and if that is the reason for your republican cover story I apologize for taking you to task and will not question that in the future.
Posted by Griffon on :
"i follow my conscience.. not my party"
It does not appear that way on these threads Glass. Course you label me all the time so my returning the favor should be expected.
"Tom Delay, Jack Abramoff, Carl Rove and a few others is why they lost control.. you take what i been telling you as attacks when i am trying to clue you in as to how the game is being played...that's not speckeelashun dere in the New American Century budd, that's what they wrote..."
You give them way too much credit. But let's get back to what I said earlier. Exactly how was I disagreeing with you about that group? Go back and look at what I said, neighbor. I said "agreed" the only area of contention is they did not cause 9/11 to happen.
"Pat Robertson and Jerry Falweel are the ones creating your religiophobic" oppositition...."
boy we agree on that one. Them and the far left. Go back and give me some comment on Sunnyside's statement
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Scattered \Scat"tered\, a. (Bot.) Irregular in position; having no regular order; as, scattered leaves.
Or: hiding under the fridge until the light goes off again. LOL
quote:Originally posted by john wayne: Nobody here has scattered yet Gordon. Same thing you said on the Clinton Vietnam thread I wonder, what is your definition of scattered?
Posted by glassman on :
you guys really do need to read the New American Century stuff...
it's chillingly "prophetic"...
Posted by john wayne on :
But Gordon don't we have to leave to scatter? No big deal I guess.
Posted by glassman on :
You give them way too much credit. But let's get back to what I said earlier. Exactly how was I disagreeing with you about that group? Go back and look at what I said, neighbor. I said "agreed" the only area of contention is they did not cause 9/11 to happen.
i give them way too much credit???
you are hopeless...
i KNOW how the game works... i told you i grew up in a political family....
i am following my coscience in my posts...
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Griffon: Debating with someone who claims to have no strong position is boring. (apolitical)
Posted by Griffon on :
GB, there is absolutely no proof of that. You are being manipulated by circumstances that do not fit the facts we know.
Posted by john wayne on :
Glassman- You think I'm Iranian right? Now how could I be in the KKK if I were Iranian? So which is it you are accusing me of or do you actually believe I am an Iranian Clansmen? Man you look for conspiracy in everything but that would be one heck of a stretch.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
There is absolutely no proof to the contrary. Why did Bush attempt to block investigation?
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: GB, there is absolutely no proof of that. You are being manipulated by circumstances that do not fit the facts we know.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: GB, there is absolutely no proof of that. You are being manipulated by circumstances that do not fit the facts we know.
and? if nobody asks the hard questions OUT LOUD? nothing gets fixed if something is wrong...
you and JW seem to be "out to" silence other people not discuss...
Posted by Sunnyside on :
"That said, this has been a wonderful experiment in how conflict begins and I thank you for that."
Grif, this has been my experience of you since the beginning of all your threads: You are extremely condescending and are rigorously pushing your religio-political agenda. Not lively discussion or debate.
While you preach your moderatism, peace-making, peace building, love for humanity, and all your other self proclaimed wonderful attributes, your intolerance is expressed in your condescension. But you appear too embroiled in your own position that you can't see the forest for the trees. In my professional jargon "passive-aggressive" behavior.
I especially appreciated your statement, to the effect that, you needed to clean up the academic jargon before posting. Well, gee, I'm glad you cleared that up for us.
And a bit of anti-semitism in there: You said you've helped the Arab Israelis, does that exclude the Jewish Israelis? Don't they deserve your altruism too? I thought your goodness was humanitarian, for all human kind.
I'm not feeling you at all.
And, JW, I'm speaking to your brother, in case you needed to rise to his defense.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Does anyone here feel that 9/11 has been fully examined and that we know the whole story?
Posted by Griffon on :
"you guys really do need to read the New American Century stuff...
it's chillingly "prophetic"..."
already read it. No evidence, no genuine evidence whatsoever. Now guys, I know the game too, and I can tell you that you accept that stuff because you have a political position that fits that type of story. Since I have no such blinder, I am free to not look for CTs in every misfortune that befalls the country.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
There was no evidence, no genuine evidence whatsoever, in 'Mein Kampf' either.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
No. You just change the subject or ignore it.
quote:Originally posted by john wayne: But Gordon don't we have to leave to scatter? No big deal I guess.
Posted by Sunnyside on :
quote:Originally posted by Gordon Bennett: Does anyone here feel that 9/11 has been fully examined and that we know the whole story?
I don't believe it has been fully examined or that we know the whole story. But, that conspiracy theory has its own holes in it.
Posted by Griffon on :
"Does anyone here feel that 9/11 has been fully examined and that we know the whole story?"
No we do not
"In my professional jargon "passive-aggressive" behavior."
You are a great deal mistaken.
"And a bit of anti-semitism in there: You said you've helped the Arab Israelis, does that exclude the Jewish Israelis?
Wow, since I teach with Jewish professors and celebrate Passover with Jewish friends, I think your comment is graping at straws. But if you want the plain facts, I help Arab Isrelis because their schools are funded at 2/3 funding given to Jewish schools which are closed to Arabs. Would you like the whole report to examine my belief structure. I see myself as Judeo-Christian-Muslim, there is no anti-Semitism in me. Hence the post-script I was ripped for last night.
"Don't they deserve your altruism too? I thought your goodness was humanitarian, for all human kind"
I never called myself good, Sunny. I am an humanitarian who givens to charitable cuses to help Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Animist, Taoism and Atheist across ethnic divides.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Indeed. Glassman, are you fully satisfied that 9/11 was nothing more than an amazingly well-timed coincidence?
quote:Originally posted by glassman: you guys really do need to read the New American Century stuff...
it's chillingly "prophetic"...
Posted by john wayne on :
Glassman- I think I see one problem here. I pretty much don't believe in very many consiracies, Republican or Democrat, or really non political conspiirices. I pretty much need a confession before I believe in a conspiracy. I believe Oswald acted alone, at least he was the only shooter there. I believe FDR did not know about Pearl harbor. I do not believe all the wacky stuff about Clinton dealing drugs etc or George Bush Senior killing Kennedy. I believe you are somewhat into conspiricies. But I don't see any reason we can't overcome that. I love talking about them.
But I don't think you have a leg to stand on about us trying to silence people. As neatly as that would fit into your conspiracy mindset, I don't think you'll find much proof to back up that assertion. Now I may say I don't think a certain conversation belongs on a thread, such as religion on a grilling thread, or Bush's service on a Clinton thread, but that is as far as I will go to silence anyone.
Glassman- my brother and I are two bald headed guys living in Iowa, He lives in Morning Sun, farming country, and I live in Johnston, suburb of Des Moines. We love to fish together, although rarely do we catch much to brag about. We both love to grill. I have a recreation degree, I know it shows in some of my posts, so for me to have some grand agenda is beyond my grasp. I am here to defend what I believe in, others feel free to do the same.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Which one? There are so many different theories. Mine is that the Government let it happen. Why is that so hard to believe, given the fact that Bush was a near lame-duck President on September 10? Would we be in Iraq today without it?
The official story has many holes as well.
quote:Originally posted by Sunnyside: I don't believe it has been fully examined or that we know the whole story. But, that conspiracy theory has its own holes in it.
quote:Originally posted by john wayne: I believe Oswald acted alone, at least he was the only shooter there.
Posted by Griffon on :
"Indeed. Glassman, are you fully satisfied that 9/11 was nothing more than an amazingly well-timed coincidence?"
I never said it was a coincidence. UBL planned it, a coincidence would have been a serious of unfortunate events just happening.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Gordon Bennett: Indeed. Glassman, are you fully satisfied that 9/11 was nothing more than an amazingly well-timed coincidence?
quote:Originally posted by glassman: you guys really do need to read the New American Century stuff...
it's chillingly "prophetic"...
fully? no way....
i keep looking for the links to this day...
however? i don't think our people knew this exact thing was coming...
something? YES, and i hold BUSH repsonsible for being on watch, which the larger part of my party was too WUSSY to do.. there JW...put that in your pipe and smoke it...wussy, that's what i call it
the party should have put soemoene else out there to run in 04... period...
and i said so right here at allstocks... it's on record
Posted by Griffon on :
I got an idea, let's see if we can get this thread from 3 to 10 pages before the weekend's out. Still waiting on Glass' response to my follow-up on peace.
Posted by glassman on :
i' watching a race right now..
Posted by Griffon on :
We will one day know the full truth.
Posted by Griffon on :
Ah, which one? I don't get much TV in these parts
Posted by glassman on :
OK, Gordon i see what you are saying...
i do think there are people who knew SOMETHING big was coming...i think they underestimated tho...
i can't buy that they let the pentagon get hit...
the WTC and John O'Neill working htere is just downright freaky tho....
the guy was OCD on al-queda and he was inthe building? wierd...
griff i am a Mark Martin Fan... i may give up watching next year cuz i think Nascar is like pro wrestling now.... we'll see...
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Wussy notwithstanding, (LOL) it's not so far-fetched to believe, as I do, that they actually let it happen. Whether they knew it would be this exact thing, or just any attack in general, is almost irrelevant.
They did nothing to prevent an attack because they wanted an attack.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: fully? no way....
i keep looking for the links to this day...
however? i don't think our people knew this exact thing was coming...
something? YES, and i hold BUSH repsonsible for being on watch, which the larger part of my party was too WUSSY to do.. there JW...put that in your pipe and smoke it...wussy, that's what i call it
the party should have put soemoene else out there to run in 04... period...
and i said so right here at allstocks... it's on record
Posted by Sunnyside on :
quote:Originally posted by Gordon Bennett: Which one? There are so many different theories. Mine is that the Government let it happen. Why is that so hard to believe, given the fact that Bush was a near lame-duck President on September 10? Would we be in Iraq today without it?
The official story has many holes as well.
quote:Originally posted by Sunnyside: I don't believe it has been fully examined or that we know the whole story. But, that conspiracy theory has its own holes in it.
I don't believe the story we have been fed that 9/11 was a carefully orchestrated attack by Ben Ladin and his terrorists. Way too many questions. But, the conspiracy holes I refer to are some of the ones depicted the Loose Change video.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Yeah, like with the Kennedy assasination. Thank God we finally know the full truth! LOL
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: We will one day know the full truth.
Posted by T e x on :
we do know FBI warnings were ignored, right? within the agency's own chain of command...
Posted by glassman on :
they publicly ask for it on that web site don't they?
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Agreed. The 'Loose Change, video raises more questions than it answers. But the questions it raises should be answered.
Here are just a few, and some others...
1. Why didn't jets intercept the airliners since they had numerous warnings of terrorist attacks?
2. Why did Ashcroft stop flying commercial, citing an unidentified "threat" in July 2001?
3. Why were there no photos or videos of the Pentagon plane?
4. Why didn't the Secret Service hustle Dubya out of the classroom?
5. Where was George H. W. Bush at the time of the attacks?
6. Why did passengers or crewmembers on three of the flights all use the term boxcutters?
7. Where are the flight recorders?
8. Why were the FISA warrants discontinued?
9. How did Bush see the first plane crash on live camera?
10 Why was security meeting scheduled for 9/11cancelled by WTC management on 9/10?
11. How did they come up with the "culprits" so quickly?
12. How did they find the terrorist's cars at the airports so quickly?
13. Why did Shrub dissolve the Bin Laden Task Force?
14. Why the strange pattern of debris from Flight 93?
15. [DELETED]
16. How extensive was the relationship between the Taliban, the ISI and the CIA?
17. What exactly was the role of Henry Kissinger at UNOCAL?
18. When was it decided to cancel building a pipeline from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan to Pakistan?
19. When was the decision made to send the FEMA to New York?
20. Why did FEMA spokesman Tom Kenney tell Dan Rather he was in New York on Sept. 10?
21. Why did the FBI in 1996 close the files to investigate Osama bin Laden's relatives in Washington?
22. Why did .Bush stop inquiries into terrorist connections of the Bin Laden family in early 2001?
23. Who made the decision to have John O'Neill stop investigating Al-qeada accounts?
24. Who gave the decision to give him a security job at the World Trade Center?
25. Did John O'Neill meet anyone of the FEMA in the night of September 10th?
26. What about media reports that hijackers bought tickets for flights scheduled after Sept. 11?
27. Why did none of the 19 hijackers appeared on the passenger lists?
28. Why would devout Muslims frequent bars, drink alcoholic beverages and leave their bibles?
29. Why would the hijackers use credit cards and allow drivers licenses with photos to be zeroxed?
30. Why did the hijackers force passengers to call relatives?
31. How did the hijackers change the flight plan without law enforcement or the military try to stop them?
32. Which hijacker's passport was found in the WTC rubble? Who found it and what time?
33. How could the FBI distinguish between "regular" Muslims and hijacker Muslims on those flights?
34. Why was there not one "innocent" Muslim on board any of these flights?
35. Did someone go through the passenger lists looking for Muslim names and label them as hijackers? MOHAMMED ATTA
36. Did the Florida police provide information that Atta was searched because of 1)an expired Visa, 2) driving a car without a license, 3) because of an incident at Miami Airport?
37. Why did Atta leave his bag at the airport and the employees didn't put it on board?
38. Who found his bag? How can we be sure it it was his bag?
39. Why did Atta place a video "how to fly planes", a uniform and his last will into his bag, knowing that he would commit suicide?
40. Why did Atta leave his drivers license in a rental car?
41. When did Atta train on a flight simulator?
42. Did Atta leave the US while in training and then return?
43. Why did Atta decide to study at Opa Locka, a famous hub of 6 Navy training bases and includes government partners like U.S. Coast Guard Air Station, Police (Miami-Dade) Aviation Unit?
44. Why was Atta allowed to study since he was stopped by the police for driving without a license and also for violating his visa? THE BLACK BOXES AND CRASH VIDEO
45. Why were the Black Boxes never recovered ?
46. Why didn't the FBI release the air traffic controller's protocols?
47. Why did the FBI not release the Flight Data Recorder info?
48. Who video-recorded the first plane hitting the tower? Why did he disappear from the media? THE HIJACKERS
49. How did the FBI receive a tip from a passenger who boarded a different plane and reached his destination safely that he had a confrontation with two ME men at the Logan airport in Boston?
50. Who tipped the FBI to storm the Westin Hotel in Boston on September 12th?
51. Where did the photos of all 19 hijackers come from?
52. How were all hijackers identified just 2 days after the attack?
53. Why did all 19 names not appear on the passenger list 2 days after the hijacker list was released?
54. Why do none of the names appear on the passenger lists UA and AA gave to CNN?
55. How could the hijackers disable the defense systems?
56. Why did the FBI ignore Bin Laden's family, who left the United States without further investigation
57. What about the supposed hijackers who are still alive?
58. Was there a reason to change the list of the original 19 hijackers?
59. What happened to Ayub Ali Khan and Mohammed Jaweed Azmath, who have been in jail since September 2001, because of possession of box cutters on a train?Who gave the tip to arrest them?
60. Why did it take 4 months before Ramsi Binalschibhs name was mentioned, since he was a good friend of Mohammad Atta and lived in his apartment in Hamburg?
61. Why did it take 4 months until December 11 to charge Zacarias Moussaoui for the 9/11 attacks when his case was known worldwide for months, but not mentioned in the American media?
62. Whatever happened with Lotfi Raissi, who was arrested in UK for teaching the terrorist pilots?
63. What is the current status of the investigation of Mamoun Darkazanli Import-Export-Company in Hamburg and Al Taqwa Management Organisation in Lugano?
64. Why was Richard Reid able to enter the Paris airport twice and who paid for his hotel?
65. Who hired Zacarias Masspoui to learn how to fly passenger jets in the United States?
66. Why did the FBI or CIA fail to interrogate him between August and December 2001? BIN LADEN
67. Did the CIA monitor Bin Laden in 1998 with the help of 15 Afghan agents, paid $1,000/ month?
68. Where are these agents? Was Johnny "Mike" Spann one? Was John Walker Lindh one?
69. Is an Afghan agent a member of the ISI? Is an Afghan agent working for Bin Laden?
70. When was the first time Tenet mentioned the Al-Quaeda group to any member of the Senate?
71. Why did the Pentagon release a new video version or translation of the Bin Laden Home video?
72. Why it was released only 8 hours after translation by the German magazine MONITOR on December ?
73. Why were the four translators prior US-Government workers?
74. When was the Bin Laden Home Video found and who found it?
75. Who found the video if Northern Alliance and US troops had not yet arrived in Kandahar or Jahalabad?
76. Does the timestamp on the Bin Laden video indicate that it was found two weeks after it was produced?
77. Why was the public not informed who found the video and when?
78. Why according to MONITOR magazine, were the most controversial statements translated incorrectly?
79. Why was the video released?
80. Who gave the final decision to release it?
81. Why is the Bin Laden video of June 2001 in which he praised the attack, available on the Internet?
82. What about Bin Laden's statements on Al-Jazeera in June 2001 about the bombing of USS Cole, which are similar to the statements on the November 2001 home video?
83. Why did Bin Laden state in Umman Magazine in Sept. 2001, that he was not involved in the WTC?
84. Is Bin Laden still on the payroll of the CIA or ISI?
85. Did the Bin Laden Group Inc. help build ToraBora with the CIA?
86. What was the purpose of the meeting with General Pervez Musharraf in May 2001?
87. Why was a statement released that Al-Khalifa bin Laden, who is not the mother of Bin Laden, had a telephone call with Bin Laden on September 9, rather than Alia Ghanem, his mother? Why did Alia Ghanem say she did not believe he planned the attack?
ANTHRAX AND MICROBIOLOGIST DEATHS
100. What happened on September 18th, when an employee of Batelle Memorial Institute was involved in a so-called anthrax hoax on that day? Was he arrested?
101. Why did the investigation of that case begin in December 2001?
102. What was in the memo of Dr. Leonard Horowitz, a public health consumer advocate and author of "Death in the Air" on October 1, 2001, almost two weeks before the first anthrax letter was sent from Trenton to the American media building in Boca Raton?
103.What about his letter of Nov. 13 in which he claimed that BAYER is behind the anthrax infections?
104. Did US BioDefense laboratories send the anthrax-laced letters to get a new budget for research?
105. What about the statement of former UN-weapons inspector of Iraq, Richard Spertzel, who told ABC, "...he knows only five scientists in the USA who would be in the situation to produce such a fine, highly developed spore material"?
106. Why did it take 48 hours to inform Bob Stevens that he had anthrax?
107. Why were envelopes never found near Bob Stevens, Amelie Lundgren and Mia Nguyen?
108. How come Microsoft got a hoax anthrax letter from Malaysia on the same day that President Bush said Malaysia might be one of the next targets of the United States?
109. Why did the FBI never investigate the case Don Wiley, a Bioscientist who disappeared 11/13/01?
110. Why did the FBI begin to investigate after his body was found on December 22, 300 miles away? Was there an investigation at the military hydro plant where workers found him? Why did the media write different versions about how, when and where he was found? Why did the police report change 2 months later from suicide to an accident?
111. What was the goal of Bioport in 1997?
112.Did development of anti-anthrax vaccines begin in 1998?
113.When did Bioport decide to produce anthrax vaccines?
114. Was it before or after Sept. 1998 that Admiral Crowe was put in charge of investigations of the August 7, 1998 bombings of Embassy Nairobi and Embassy Dar Es Salaam?
115. Did the schedule for developing anti-anthrax vaccines begin starting in 1998?
116. When did the US Government ask Bayer for help in developing a vaccine?
117. When did Bayer start sending the vaccines to the U.S.?
118. When did Bayer double production of the vaccines?
119. Was the death of Vladimir Pasechnik investigated? He was former director of the Institute of Ultra Pure Biochemical Preparations of the Soviet bio-warfare establishment Biopreparat in November 2001?
120. How are the deaths of scientists Robert M. Schwartz, Dr. Benito Que and Set Van Nguyen explained since all occurred in the same month? Is Set van Nguyen related to the anthrax victim Mia Nguyen?
121. What about the death of Nancy Sonnenfeld (FEMA-Wife)?
122. Why was the NJ Division of Fish and Wildlife examining Anthrax in August 2000?
123. Do any employees in Trenton have the same handwriting as printed on the Anthrax envelopes?
124. Is it just a coincidence that the laboratory is also based in Trenton?
125. Did the FBI ever ask Fort Detrick to examine anthrax spores?
126. What about the list of 15-20 labs (maintained by Barbara Rosenzweig) who used Fort Detrick spores?
127. Does the CIA have spores different from those at Fort Detrick?
128. Why did Tommy Thompson, The Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, and other Bush cabinet members meet secretly (i.e. illegally) in Oct. 2001 with officials of the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA) to develop plans for their Emergency Preparedness Task Force?
129. Why did he decide on October 25, 2001 to ask Congress for another $500 million to produce Acambis's smallpox vaccine?
130. Why did it take 4.5 hours until Jean Marie Malecki , Director Palm Beach County Health Department, picked up the phone for employees of the AMI-Building, Boca Raton. This is where editor Bob Stevens got anthrax. Why did she wait two days before she visited that building again?
131. Did Walter Gilbert, Director Myriad Genetics ever get official permission from relatives of those killed at WTC to examine their DNA?
FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES
150. Why did General Mahmud Ahmad, former head of the ISI quit his position?
151. Why did retaliation against the Taliban begin the day he stepped down?
152. Who in the ISI paid $100.000 to Mohammad Atta?
153. Why does Ahmad think that another secret service was involved in the WTC attack? Which Secret Service was he referring to? Did other ISI official's believe that? Did officials of the CIA believe that? Did some officials of the Mossad believe that?
154. What was the purpose of Ahmad's visit to Washington on 9/11?
155. Who told Russian Foreign Minister Ivanov to abort an air strike against Afghanistan in May 2000?
156. Did Russian intelligence notify the CIA in 2001 that 25 terrorist pilots had been training for suicide missions, as reported in the Russian press?
quote:Originally posted by Sunnyside:
quote:Originally posted by Gordon Bennett: Which one? There are so many different theories. Mine is that the Government let it happen. Why is that so hard to believe, given the fact that Bush was a near lame-duck President on September 10? Would we be in Iraq today without it?
The official story has many holes as well.
quote:Originally posted by Sunnyside: I don't believe it has been fully examined or that we know the whole story. But, that conspiracy theory has its own holes in it.
I don't believe the story we have been fed that 9/11 was a carefully orchestrated attack by Ben Ladin and his terrorists. Way too many questions. But, the conspiracy holes I refer to are some of the ones depicted the Loose Change video.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by T e x: we do know FBI warnings were ignored, right? within the agency's own chain of command...
yes, and? zack massoui was in custody...they try to blame "liberal" judges for not gettin' on to his hard drives...what a joke....
Posted by Sunnyside on :
Grif, if I misinterpreted your statements as being anti-semitic I apologize.
But, as for my experience of your postings, they remain.
Maybe its your presentation that is so irritating.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
While we're at it, here's the full list from WhatReallyHappened.com...
911 - THE BASIC QUESTIONS
1. Why didn't jets intercept the airliners since they had numerous warnings of terrorist attacks?
2. Why did Ashcroft stop flying commercial, citing an unidentified "threat" in July 2001?
3. Why were there no photos or videos of the Pentagon plane?
4. Why didn't the Secret Service hustle Dubya out of the classroom?
5. Where was George H. W. Bush at the time of the attacks?
6. Why did passengers or crewmembers on three of the flights all use the term boxcutters?
7. Where are the flight recorders?
8. Why were the FISA warrants discontinued?
9. How did Bush see the first plane crash on live camera?
10 Why was security meeting scheduled for 9/11cancelled by WTC management on 9/10?
11. How did they come up with the "culprits" so quickly?
12. How did they find the terrorist's cars at the airports so quickly?
13. Why did Shrub dissolve the Bin Laden Task Force?
14. Why the strange pattern of debris from Flight 93?
15. [DELETED]
16. How extensive was the relationship between the Taliban, the ISI and the CIA?
17. What exactly was the role of Henry Kissinger at UNOCAL?
18. When was it decided to cancel building a pipeline from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan to Pakistan?
19. When was the decision made to send the FEMA to New York?
20. Why did FEMA spokesman Tom Kenney tell Dan Rather he was in New York on Sept. 10?
21. Why did the FBI in 1996 close the files to investigate Osama bin Laden's relatives in Washington?
22. Why did .Bush stop inquiries into terrorist connections of the Bin Laden family in early 2001?
23. Who made the decision to have John O'Neill stop investigating Al-qeada accounts?
24. Who gave the decision to give him a security job at the World Trade Center?
25. Did John O'Neill meet anyone of the FEMA in the night of September 10th?
26. What about media reports that hijackers bought tickets for flights scheduled after Sept. 11?
27. Why did none of the 19 hijackers appeared on the passenger lists?
28. Why would devout Muslims frequent bars, drink alcoholic beverages and leave their bibles?
29. Why would the hijackers use credit cards and allow drivers licenses with photos to be zeroxed?
30. Why did the hijackers force passengers to call relatives?
31. How did the hijackers change the flight plan without law enforcement or the military try to stop them?
32. Which hijacker's passport was found in the WTC rubble? Who found it and what time?
33. How could the FBI distinguish between "regular" Muslims and hijacker Muslims on those flights?
34. Why was there not one "innocent" Muslim on board any of these flights?
35. Did someone go through the passenger lists looking for Muslim names and label them as hijackers? MOHAMMED ATTA
36. Did the Florida police provide information that Atta was searched because of 1)an expired Visa, 2) driving a car without a license, 3) because of an incident at Miami Airport?
37. Why did Atta leave his bag at the airport and the employees didn't put it on board?
38. Who found his bag? How can we be sure it it was his bag?
39. Why did Atta place a video "how to fly planes", a uniform and his last will into his bag, knowing that he would commit suicide?
40. Why did Atta leave his drivers license in a rental car?
41. When did Atta train on a flight simulator?
42. Did Atta leave the US while in training and then return?
43. Why did Atta decide to study at Opa Locka, a famous hub of 6 Navy training bases and includes government partners like U.S. Coast Guard Air Station, Police (Miami-Dade) Aviation Unit?
44. Why was Atta allowed to study since he was stopped by the police for driving without a license and also for violating his visa? THE BLACK BOXES AND CRASH VIDEO
45. Why were the Black Boxes never recovered ?
46. Why didn't the FBI release the air traffic controller's protocols?
47. Why did the FBI not release the Flight Data Recorder info?
48. Who video-recorded the first plane hitting the tower? Why did he disappear from the media? THE HIJACKERS
49. How did the FBI receive a tip from a passenger who boarded a different plane and reached his destination safely that he had a confrontation with two ME men at the Logan airport in Boston?
50. Who tipped the FBI to storm the Westin Hotel in Boston on September 12th?
51. Where did the photos of all 19 hijackers come from?
52. How were all hijackers identified just 2 days after the attack?
53. Why did all 19 names not appear on the passenger list 2 days after the hijacker list was released?
54. Why do none of the names appear on the passenger lists UA and AA gave to CNN?
55. How could the hijackers disable the defense systems?
56. Why did the FBI ignore Bin Laden's family, who left the United States without further investigation
57. What about the supposed hijackers who are still alive?
58. Was there a reason to change the list of the original 19 hijackers?
59. What happened to Ayub Ali Khan and Mohammed Jaweed Azmath, who have been in jail since September 2001, because of possession of box cutters on a train?Who gave the tip to arrest them?
60. Why did it take 4 months before Ramsi Binalschibhs name was mentioned, since he was a good friend of Mohammad Atta and lived in his apartment in Hamburg?
61. Why did it take 4 months until December 11 to charge Zacarias Moussaoui for the 9/11 attacks when his case was known worldwide for months, but not mentioned in the American media?
62. Whatever happened with Lotfi Raissi, who was arrested in UK for teaching the terrorist pilots?
63. What is the current status of the investigation of Mamoun Darkazanli Import-Export-Company in Hamburg and Al Taqwa Management Organisation in Lugano?
64. Why was Richard Reid able to enter the Paris airport twice and who paid for his hotel?
65. Who hired Zacarias Masspoui to learn how to fly passenger jets in the United States?
66. Why did the FBI or CIA fail to interrogate him between August and December 2001? BIN LADEN
67. Did the CIA monitor Bin Laden in 1998 with the help of 15 Afghan agents, paid $1,000/ month?
68. Where are these agents? Was Johnny "Mike" Spann one? Was John Walker Lindh one?
69. Is an Afghan agent a member of the ISI? Is an Afghan agent working for Bin Laden?
70. When was the first time Tenet mentioned the Al-Quaeda group to any member of the Senate?
71. Why did the Pentagon release a new video version or translation of the Bin Laden Home video?
72. Why it was released only 8 hours after translation by the German magazine MONITOR on December ?
73. Why were the four translators prior US-Government workers?
74. When was the Bin Laden Home Video found and who found it?
75. Who found the video if Northern Alliance and US troops had not yet arrived in Kandahar or Jahalabad?
76. Does the timestamp on the Bin Laden video indicate that it was found two weeks after it was produced?
77. Why was the public not informed who found the video and when?
78. Why according to MONITOR magazine, were the most controversial statements translated incorrectly?
79. Why was the video released?
80. Who gave the final decision to release it?
81. Why is the Bin Laden video of June 2001 in which he praised the attack, available on the Internet?
82. What about Bin Laden's statements on Al-Jazeera in June 2001 about the bombing of USS Cole, which are similar to the statements on the November 2001 home video?
83. Why did Bin Laden state in Umman Magazine in Sept. 2001, that he was not involved in the WTC?
84. Is Bin Laden still on the payroll of the CIA or ISI?
85. Did the Bin Laden Group Inc. help build ToraBora with the CIA?
86. What was the purpose of the meeting with General Pervez Musharraf in May 2001?
87. Why was a statement released that Al-Khalifa bin Laden, who is not the mother of Bin Laden, had a telephone call with Bin Laden on September 9, rather than Alia Ghanem, his mother? Why did Alia Ghanem say she did not believe he planned the attack?
ANTHRAX AND MICROBIOLOGIST DEATHS
100. What happened on September 18th, when an employee of Batelle Memorial Institute was involved in a so-called anthrax hoax on that day? Was he arrested?
101. Why did the investigation of that case begin in December 2001?
102. What was in the memo of Dr. Leonard Horowitz, a public health consumer advocate and author of "Death in the Air" on October 1, 2001, almost two weeks before the first anthrax letter was sent from Trenton to the American media building in Boca Raton?
103.What about his letter of Nov. 13 in which he claimed that BAYER is behind the anthrax infections?
104. Did US BioDefense laboratories send the anthrax-laced letters to get a new budget for research?
105. What about the statement of former UN-weapons inspector of Iraq, Richard Spertzel, who told ABC, "...he knows only five scientists in the USA who would be in the situation to produce such a fine, highly developed spore material"?
106. Why did it take 48 hours to inform Bob Stevens that he had anthrax?
107. Why were envelopes never found near Bob Stevens, Amelie Lundgren and Mia Nguyen?
108. How come Microsoft got a hoax anthrax letter from Malaysia on the same day that President Bush said Malaysia might be one of the next targets of the United States?
109. Why did the FBI never investigate the case Don Wiley, a Bioscientist who disappeared 11/13/01?
110. Why did the FBI begin to investigate after his body was found on December 22, 300 miles away? Was there an investigation at the military hydro plant where workers found him? Why did the media write different versions about how, when and where he was found? Why did the police report change 2 months later from suicide to an accident?
111. What was the goal of Bioport in 1997?
112.Did development of anti-anthrax vaccines begin in 1998?
113.When did Bioport decide to produce anthrax vaccines?
114. Was it before or after Sept. 1998 that Admiral Crowe was put in charge of investigations of the August 7, 1998 bombings of Embassy Nairobi and Embassy Dar Es Salaam?
115. Did the schedule for developing anti-anthrax vaccines begin starting in 1998?
116. When did the US Government ask Bayer for help in developing a vaccine?
117. When did Bayer start sending the vaccines to the U.S.?
118. When did Bayer double production of the vaccines?
119. Was the death of Vladimir Pasechnik investigated? He was former director of the Institute of Ultra Pure Biochemical Preparations of the Soviet bio-warfare establishment Biopreparat in November 2001?
120. How are the deaths of scientists Robert M. Schwartz, Dr. Benito Que and Set Van Nguyen explained since all occurred in the same month? Is Set van Nguyen related to the anthrax victim Mia Nguyen?
121. What about the death of Nancy Sonnenfeld (FEMA-Wife)?
122. Why was the NJ Division of Fish and Wildlife examining Anthrax in August 2000?
123. Do any employees in Trenton have the same handwriting as printed on the Anthrax envelopes?
124. Is it just a coincidence that the laboratory is also based in Trenton?
125. Did the FBI ever ask Fort Detrick to examine anthrax spores?
126. What about the list of 15-20 labs (maintained by Barbara Rosenzweig) who used Fort Detrick spores?
127. Does the CIA have spores different from those at Fort Detrick?
128. Why did Tommy Thompson, The Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, and other Bush cabinet members meet secretly (i.e. illegally) in Oct. 2001 with officials of the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA) to develop plans for their Emergency Preparedness Task Force?
129. Why did he decide on October 25, 2001 to ask Congress for another $500 million to produce Acambis's smallpox vaccine?
130. Why did it take 4.5 hours until Jean Marie Malecki , Director Palm Beach County Health Department, picked up the phone for employees of the AMI-Building, Boca Raton. This is where editor Bob Stevens got anthrax. Why did she wait two days before she visited that building again?
131. Did Walter Gilbert, Director Myriad Genetics ever get official permission from relatives of those killed at WTC to examine their DNA?
FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES
150. Why did General Mahmud Ahmad, former head of the ISI quit his position?
151. Why did retaliation against the Taliban begin the day he stepped down?
152. Who in the ISI paid $100.000 to Mohammad Atta?
153. Why does Ahmad think that another secret service was involved in the WTC attack? Which Secret Service was he referring to? Did other ISI official's believe that? Did officials of the CIA believe that? Did some officials of the Mossad believe that?
154. What was the purpose of Ahmad's visit to Washington on 9/11?
155. Who told Russian Foreign Minister Ivanov to abort an air strike against Afghanistan in May 2000?
156. Did Russian intelligence notify the CIA in 2001 that 25 terrorist pilots had been training for suicide missions, as reported in the Russian press?
KISSINGER 1. What did Kissinger mean that an "outside threat from beyond", a "world government" and "individual rights" who are "willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted", what you mentioned in 1991 on a Bilderberg Conference?
2. What was his role at UNOCAL?
3. Is he in contact with representatives of these companies or institutions:
4. What did he discuss at the Bilderberg meeting last year in May 2001?
5. What was the purpose of his meeting with Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov in July 2001?
6. Why does he write in "Toward a New Diplomacy for the 21st Century" that America doesn't need a Foreign Policy?
7. When was the last time Henry Kissinger met US-Ambassador in Pakistan, Robert Oakley?
THE PURCHASE OF AIRLINE PUT OPTIONS
1. Is it true that the CIA is in possession of PROMIS software?
2. What is the purpose of PROMIS?
3. Did A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard, CIA, own any stocks of United Airlines, American Airlines, Merrill Lynch,
4. Morgan Stanley, AXA Re (insurance) which owns 25% of American Airlines, and Munich Re.?
5. What is his connection to Alex Brown, Deutsche Bank?
6. Did he give any insider information about to George Tenet, CIA?
7. Who was the investor who purchased 2,000 UAL put options between August and September 11, 2001?
8. Did Deutsche Bank-Alex Brown own any stocks of UA, AA, Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, AXA Re (insurance) which owns 25% of American Airlines, and Munich Re?
9. What about the 2,500 UA-contracts which were "split into 500 chunks each, directing each order to different U.S. exchanges around the country simultaneously." on August 10, 2001?
10. Did Deutsche purchase UAL options in August 2001?
11. Why did DB-AB purchase 4,744 put options on United Air Lines stock as opposed to only 396 call s on September 6-7? What was the purpose of doing that?
12. What is the connection to Wally Kromgaard?
13. Did Deutsche Bank or Wally Kromgaard purchase 4,516 put options on American Airlines as compared to 748 call options on September 10?
14. What was the reason of Mayo Shattuck III re-asssignment on September 15th?
THE TALIBAN AND THE CARPET OF GOLD..
1. When was the last time they met any representatives of the US-Government?
2. What was the purpose of these meetings?
3. Do the Taliban know Karl E. Inderfurth and State Department counterterrorism chief Michael Sheehan?
4. Do they know which US-Representative said in February 2001: "Either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs"?
5. When was the last time the Taliban was in touch with this representative?
6. Did Abdul Haq, the former Mujahedin leader executed Sept 2001 by the Taliban, decide in Winter 2000 to attack the Taliban?
7. Did production of opium in Afghanistan fall from 3276 tonnes in 2000 to 185 tonnes in 2001?
GLOBAL HAWK TECHNOLOGY
1. Was Global Hawk technology able to remotelycontrol unmanned planes in 1999 for 27 hours?
2. Did Northrop-Grumman use Global Hawk technology in the war in Afghanistan since October 2001?
3. What is the purpose of unmanned technology?
4. Is Northrup in contact with any engineers of Boeing?
5. Did Northrup install Global Hawk technology in a commercial airplane?
CARRIER AND TROOP MOVEMENTS BEFORE SEPT 11
1. Did two U.S. carrier battle groups arrive in the Gulf of Arabia just off the Pakistani coast before 9/11?
2. Did 17,000 U.S. troops join more than 23,000 NATO troops in Egypt for Operation 'Bright Star' on 9/11? What was the purpose of both of these operations?
BIOCHEMICAL WARFARE
1. When did Tommy Franks learn that he would use Thermobarics in ToraBora?
2. Does he know if it had been tested on December 12 in Nevada?
3. Who told Franks that Bin Laden might hide in ToraBora?
4. Is the main purpose of Thermobarics to destroy buried bio and chemical stocks?
5. Was Thermobarics developed for the purpose to use one day in Iraq?
6. When was the first time Franks used Thermobarics? Was it before or after the announcement of the end of ABM Treaty on December 11?
7. When did the US decide to use B61-11, the "nuclear version" of its "conventional" BLU-113 counterpart?
8. Why has the NSA destroyed data collected on Americans or US companies since the Sept. 11 attacks?
ABORTED ATTEMPTS TO GET BIN-LADEN
1. Why did Clinton abort an attack on Bin Laden in October 1999?
2. Who was responsible for that operation?
3. Why was the operation put on hold?
4. Why did Musharraf halt a covert operation to attack Bin Laden in October 1999?
5. Why did the GOP in Congress stop almost every move Clinton made against terrorism? They refused to believe reports and pass necessary legislation. In 1996 Clinton proposed a very extensive anti-terrorism regulation.
RICHARD REID
1. Who hired Richard Reid to threaten a passenger plane in Paris?
2. Who did he send an email to in Pakistan?
3. Has he ever been in touch with the ISI or CIA?
4. Did he know the difference between an explosive and a detonator?
5. How many ounces did he have in his shoes?
6. What size are his shoes?
7. Who build or prepared his shoes?
JOHN WALKER LINDH
1. Has John Walker Lindh ever been in touch with the CIA?
2. Did he ever work for the CIA?
3. Who arrested him in 2001?
4. Why didn't he escape in the tumult to nearby Masar-e-Sharif?
5. Who hired his lawyer, Richard Brohanan? Who paid his lawyer?
6. Why didn't he go to Guantanamo Bay?
DICK CHENEY
1. When did Cheney stop working for Halliburton?
2. Is he still in possession of any Halliburton stock?
3. Is he still in contact with Halliburton?
4. Was Halliburton invited to an oil conference in May 2002?
5. Does Cheney know when that meeting was planned?
6. Did Cheney have influence concerning Halliburton contracts with the Pentagon?
7. What exactly did Cheney decide to do on September 11th?
8. Did he speak with an Air Force Commander or Lt. Gen. Charles F. Wald on that day?
9. When did he inform the president about the hijacked airplanes on September 11?
10. Who called the White House on September 11 at 9:30 AM about a possible threat?
11. Why was no air security at the White House or the Pentagon at 9:30 AM?
12. When and who gave the approval to evacuate the White House at 9:45 AM?
13. What was the purpose of a meeting with Indian opposition leader Sonia Gandhi in June 2001 about a multimillion-dollar debt owed to Enron from a major energy project in Indian Power Plants?
14. When was the last time Cheney spoke with anyone from ENRON?
COLIN POWELL
1. What was the role of Colin Powell?
2. Who decided to give $43 million in aid to the Taliban regime in May 2001?
3. Did he know that production of opium in Afghanistan fell from 3276 tonnes in 2000 to 185 in 2001?
4. What was the purpose of his decision to treat the Taliban prisoners as War Prisoners? Is this decision in any way related to media reports 2 days earlier that Powell may have been involved in negotiations with Indian Power Plants?
5. What was the purpose of his short trip to Latin America on September 11?
6. Who decided that he fly to Latin America on that day?
7. Why would someone threaten him in Afghanistan on January 17, 2002 as Newsweek reported?
8. What was the purpose of Powell meeting with India's foreign minister on April 6, 2001?
9. Did Enron or Cheney ask Powell to help collect a $64 million debt on an Indian plant project?
GEORGE H.W. BUSH
1. When was the last time George H.W. Bush traveled to South Arabia on behalf of the Carlyle Group?
2. What was the purpose of that meeting?
THOMAS WHITE
1. Is Thomas White still in contact with ENRON?
2. Did his contact at anytime influence his decisions?
3. Does he still own ENRON stocks?
DELMART VREELAND
1. Did Vreeland warn Canadian Intelligence in May 2001 about possible terrorist attacks on New York and the Pentagon?
2. Did he place the warning in an envelope while in prison in Toronto, Canada?
3. Where did he get his information?
4. Whom did he give the envelope to?
5. Why was he placed in jail?
SAUDI-BINLADIN-GROUP.COM
1.Was the domain created on September 11th, 2000?
2. Who paid for that domain?
3. Are they also owners of Iridium Satellites?
4. When did they end contact with relatives of the Bush family?
THE CARLYLE GROUP
1. When was the last time George H.W. Bush traveled to Saudi Arabia on behalf of the privately owned Carlyle Group, the 11th largest defense contractor in the U.S.?
2. What was the purpose of that meeting?
3. When did he resign from Carlyle Group?
4. Is he still in touch with any of their representatives?
STEPHEN LANDER, Director MI5
1. Did Lander monitor a phone conversation between Zacarias Moussaoui and Richard Reid in Dec. 2000?
2. What did Lander tell representatives of the CIA about Zacarias Moussaoui?
3. Why did he stop monitoring Djamel Beghal, member of Takfir-wal-Hijra (financed by Osama bin Laden) in August 2001?
BIN LADEN IN DUBAI
1. Did Bin Laden in July 2001 enter an American hospital in Dubai?
2. Did he arrive on July 4, 2001 on a flight from Qetta, Pakistan to American Hospital?
3. Was he at the hospital July 4-11, 2001?
4. Did Bernard Koval, CEO of American Hospital, ever speak with Doctor Terry Callaway about that visit?
5. Why did he change his statements about this story not being true and that he "asked around"?
6. What is the difference between Continuous Ambulatory Peritoneal Dialysis and Continuous Cycling Peritoneal Dialysis?
7. Did Koval know Larry Stevens?
8. Can Koval explain why Richard Labeviere, author of "Terror Dollars" (about illegal Al-Quaeda accounts), wrote the story about Osama Bin Laden's kidney operation?
GEORGE W. BUSH
1. What exactly happened on September 11 and at what time was President Bush informed?
2. Why was President Bush scheduled to visit a school in Florida?
3. Who scheduled the time of the visit?
4. When exactly did Bush learn about the first crash into the WTC?
5. How could he have seen that on TV?
6. Why didn't he interrupt his school meeting as soon as he learned of the first plane crash?
7. Did Bush ever wonder how Bin Laden was able to hear the first plane crash live on the radio?
8. Which radio station he was listening to?
9. Can Bush explain how Bin Laden's Home Video was found only two weeks after it was produced?
10. Why did Bush decide to release Bin Laden's Home Video?
11. What is the purpose of the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHISC) in Fort Benning, Georgia, where terrorists have been trained for undercover agents in South America? Bush stated "if any government sponsors the outlaws and killers of innocents, they have become outlaws and murderers themselves". So what does he think about Fort Benning?
12. What is the role of Zalmay Khalilzad (former UNOCAL) in the National Security Council ?
13. What is the current role of Zalmay Khalilzad (former UNOCAL) in Afghanistan?
14. When was Bush's last contact with anyone from ENRON?
15. Why was China admitted to the WTO on September 13 after 15 years of unsuccessful attempts?
16. Why did Bush postpone the release of Ronald Reagan's records?
17. How does Bush feel about the need to investigate the CIA's mistakes?
18. Does Bush agree with senators John McCain, Joseph I. Lieberman, Porter J. Goss, former C.I.A. clandestine case officer and a Florida Republican, Richard C. Shelby and Ron Paul, US Congressman, who want an investigation and have said "Secret government is winning out over open government"?
19. Did he know before he left his hotel that morning on the way to the school that the 1st tower had been hit? ABC news reported that morning that he was asked by reporters if he was aware of events in NYC and he answered yes. If so, why did he later say he first heard of it was when he was at the school?
20. Why did Bush continue to sit in that classroom reading to children when he should have been conferring with his advisors?
21. Why did Bush say that he and Card initially thought it was an accident involving a small plane?
22. Given all the information sources available to the POTUS and his staff how could his people not have known the kind of plane involved?
23. Why didn't they know at this point, as did the FAA and NORAD, that aircraft were hijacked? The Batallion Chief in the 9/11 video was seen and heard asking for military backup immediately after the building was hit.
24.How come the NYFD knew it was terrorism right away but the POTUS and his aides just calmly went about their business?
TONY BLAIR
1. Were 25,000 British troops and the largest British Armada since the Falkland Islands War, part of Operation 'Essential Harvest' pre-positioned in Oman, the closest point on the Arabian Peninsula to Pakistan before September 11, 2001?
2. When did he begin to place SIS-Special Forces in Afghanistan? Why?
THE SUN-SENTINEL
1. Did Gloria Irish own unit 1504 at the Delray Racquet Club, 755 Dotterel?
2. Did she rent that property to Hamza Alghamdi in August 2001?
3. Why did the media not report about a connection of the Sun-Sentinel and the hijackers?
4. Why did it first appear that the hijackers had something to do with the anthrax attacks?
5. Why has this connection or coincidence never appeared in the media again?
6. What was the connection between husband Michael Irish (SunSentinel) and Bob Stevens (who died from Anthrax)?
WARNINGS
1. When did Vladimir Putin warn the CIA about a possible terrorist attack and what was their reaction?
2. What was the purpose of the meeting between Christina Rocca, director of Asian affairs at the State Department and the Taliban ambassador Mollah Abdul Salam Zaeef in Islamabad in August 2001?
3. Why did she oversee the delivery of Stinger missiles in the 80s to Afghan mujaheddin?
4. Did Walid Arkeh in Seminole County jail inform the FBI in August 2001 about an attack on America? What was the reaction of the FBI?
5. Why did Dr. Jeffrey Starr, U.S. department of defense, visit Tajikistan in Jan 2001?
6. When did Jean-Claude Cousseran, Director DGSE , French Secret Service inform the CIA about terrorist attacks on America? What was their reaction?
7. What does he know about the monitoring of Djamel Beghal, member of Takfir-wal-Hijra (financed by Osama bin Laden) and Kamel Daoudi? Did he ever inform the CIA about that? And when?
8. When did Italian Deputy Prime Minister Gianfranco Fini inform the CIA about a possible attack on the American president "with the use of an airplane"? What was their reaction?
9. When did President Mubarak, Egypt, inform the CIA about a possible attack on America with an "airplane stuffed with explosives"? What was their reaction?
10. When did Efraim Halevy , Director of Mossad since 1998 (unconfirmed) inform the CIA about a possible attack with "200 terrorists" on America? What was their reaction?
11. Is it true he warned Ariel Sharon not to travel to New York on September 11 to speak at a festival?
12. Did a caller to Loxley Banks, Director Radio Cayman Islands talk show, give several warnings of an imminent attack on the U.S on Sept. 3 -10?
13. The London Times reported that someone from the FAA warned Salman Rushdie not to travel to the United States on September 3rd? If this is true, who was it?
14. Did the FBI investigate the two men who met Mohamed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi in Harry's Bar at the Helmsley Hotel in Manhattan on September 8, 2001?
15. Who does Abdullah Abdullah (Northern Alliance) believe killed Commander Ahmad Shah Massoud on September 9, 2001?
16. When and why did he decide to attack Kabul on September 11 at 5:30 PM?
17. When did he decide to invade Masar-i-Scharif
18. Did the CIA helped him provoke a tumult?
19. Did he ever meet John Walker Lindh?
20. Why was Major John Kenny, Commander Wright Patterson Air Base, Dayton placedon high alert on September 10? Did he inform companies in Dayton to shutdown their offices?
21. Why was Colonel William M. Dietrick , Commander Defense Language Institute in Garrison, Monterey on high alert on September 10?
22. Why did one of Kenneth (Ken) Weinbrecht (President SAMS ) executives say on September 10, that he was a 'Wildcard. Ruthless and cunning. Has capability to target US forces and make it look like a Palestinian/Arab act.'"
23. Did Jean-Louis Bruguiere, French anti-terrorism, inform the CIA on September 10 about a possible terrorist attack? If so, what was their reaction?
24. Why did Atta and hijacker Abdulaziz Alomari checke into a Portland, Maine motel (unidentified) on September 10?
25. Why was the Portland, Airport, according to eye-witnesses, in full charge of more military officials and soldiers than usual, weeks before September 11, 2001?
26. Why, as the San Francisco Chronicle reported, was Mayor Brown warned to be "cautious in your travel" the night of September 10? Who warned him?
27. Why did Alex Diamandis, Odigo Vice President of Sales and Marketing, receive a warning on his messenger service about a possible attack on America on September 11, 2001? At which time?
28. When did Dr.August Hanning , President BND (Bundesnachrichtendienst Germany) inform the CIA that "Middle Eastern terrorists are 'planning to hijack commercial aircraft ?" What was their reaction? Did he allow an Iranian prisoner in Hamburg call to the CIA in Summer 2001 about an attack on America? What was their reaction?
AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL/GLOBAL HAWK
1. Why did Kenneth Waldie, Stanley Hall, Herbert Homer and Peter Gay of Raytheon travel on Sept. 11? 2.
2. Can Global Hawk technology be used for at least 27 hours?
3. Is Global Hawk technology used in commercial airplanes?
4. Did Danielle O'Brien, air traffic controller, inform another air traffic control center about a plane traveling fast southwest of Dulles after spotting it 8:18 AM on September 11?
5. Who was informed and what happened?
THE PENNSYLVANIA CRASH
1. Why didn't Dr. James G. Roche, Secretary of the Air Force try to reach the airplanes in NYC (7 minutes time for McGuire AFB in New Jersey ) and at the Pentagon (10 minutes time)?
2. Did Roche ever try to shutdown the plane in Pennsylvania?
3. Can Roche explain why magazines of that plane were found 20 miles away from the crash? Andrews AFB is 13 miles away. He had one hour and fifteen minutes to respond to the plane that hit the Pentagon. What happened during that time?
4. Can he explain why many ear- and eye witnesses, including workers of the road construction company New Enterprise saw or heard F-16 jets ?
5. Why did President Bush say only one week later that he tried to shutdown that plane?
6. Who gave that decision?
DEFENSE ALERTS AND MOVEMENTS
1. Why did George Bush leave Barksdale Air Force Base aboard Air Force One and flew to an Air Force base in Nebraska on 1:48 PM on September 11 and returned to Washington at 4:30 PM?
2. What exactly did Donald Rumsfeld do that day before he arrived at the Pentagon around 3:55 PM?
3. How did Rumsfeld know at 5:30 PM on September 11 that the plane in Pennsylvania could have been headed for one of three possible targets: Camp David, the White House or the U.S. Capitol building?
4. Can he explain why early media reports told us that no squadrons of combat-ready fighter jets have been at Andrews and later changed their reports that they haven't been on high alert only?
5. Why was Air Force Lt. Col. Vic Warzinski, another Pentagon spokesman, so sure on September 11 that aircraft was coming your way?
6. What did the D.C. Air National Guard in Washington do on September 11?
7. Can he explain what those 3 fighters did from 9:40AM until 9:55AM when they finally turned towards Flight 93 and were 60 miles out at 10:06am?
8. Can he explain why Air Traffic Controllers in a Nashua Telegraph article did report an F-16 was circling Flight 93 and was in visual range at the time of crash?
9. Can he confirm a witness report that National Guard F-16's have been at Hancock field in Syracuse NY in the air early that morning before 9AM?
10. How could the hijackers know how to disable defense systems?
11. What was the official reason that fighters of the 305th Air Wing, McGuire Air Force Base, NJ did not intercept the 2nd hijacked plane in NYC? This would have been possible within 7 minutes after 8:48 AM
12. Why did none of the 459th Aircraft Squadron (Andrews AFB) fighters intercept the plane which crashed into the Pentagon? Andrews AFB is 10 miles from Washington DC.
13. Col. Ken McClellan, Air Force spokesman said on September 11, that Mohammad Atta attended the International Officer's School at Maxwell/Gunter Air Force Base in Montgomery, and was seen by eye-witnesses? What was McClellan doing there? Why did he later deny the report?
14. Why did he decide not to shutdown ECHELON base Bad Aibling in Germany as planned for 2002?
15. What is the reason that none of any Air Force fighters reached the hijacked plane in time?
16. Many eye- and witnesses think that the plane in Pennsylvania was shot down. What is the scientific explanation why the magazine of the airplane was found many miles away?
17. Why did Jack Kelly, idefense.com, inform USA Today only 12 minutes after the first crash (8:48AM), that terror groups using Web encryption may have been responsible? And why was he so sure before the second crash at 9:03 PM?
18. Did Kelly serve with the U.S. government where he managed several significant programs for the information warfare and intelligence communities?
19. Did Joseph J. Esposito, Chief of NYPD try to contact the Pentagon at 9:06 AM on September 11? What was their reaction?
20. Why didn't General Elwood "Pete" Quesada of the FAA inform President Bush between 8:15 and 9:05 about four simultaneously hijacked planes? Who did he inform and what was their reaction?
THE WTC COLLAPSE
1. What does Nicholas Scoppetta of FDNY know about the latest reports of the WTC destruction?
2. Can he explain why many witnesses saw and heard more than two explosions in the WTC?
3. Can he explain why both Twin Towers and Building 7 collapsed in that way?
4. Can he explain why a gas tank was in Building 7?
5. Can he explain why there were no passengers in the subway under the WTC?
6. Can he explain why there was no guard at the gold reservoir under the WTC?
7. Why did Dr. Jeffrey P. Koplan, Director CDC prepare, as CNN reported, emergency-response teams on September 11 at 11:16 PM?
MISCELLANEOUS
1. When did Dr.August Hanning , President BND (Bundesnachrichtendienst Germany) inform the CIA that "Middle Eastern terrorists are 'planning to hijack commercial aircraft ?" What was their reaction? Did he allow an Iranian prisoner in Hamburg call to the CIA in Summer 2001 about an attack on America? What was their reaction?
2. When did Tayseer Allouni , Kabul correspondent Al-Jazeera, receive his first video from Bin Laden? Can he explain why the first video on October 7 2001, the day of the retaliation, looked like it was recorded in the morning?
3. Did Tom Simmons (former U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan), Karl Inderfurth (former Assistant Secretary of State for South Asian affairs) and Lee Coldren (former State Department expert on South Asia) decide or announce in a July 2001 meeting that an attack was planned on the Taliban in October 2001?
4. Why did Ms. Barbara Bodine, US ambassador to Yemen stop John O'Neill from investigating Al-Quaeda accounts in July 2001?
5. Did Niaz Niak, former Pakistani Foreign Secretary say in mid July 2001 that the USA planned military action against Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban?
6. Did Hameed Gul, retired Pakistani general of Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence, say that a secret service was involved in the attack on America?
7. Why did Tommy Thompson, The Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, and other Bush cabinet members meet secretly (i.e. illegally) in Oct. 2001 with officials of the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA) to develop plans for their Emergency Preparedness Task Force? Why did he decide on October 25, 2001 to ask Congress for another $500 million to produce Acambis's smallpox vaccine?
8. Why did it take 4.5 hours until Jean Marie Malecki , Director Palm Beach County Health Department, picked up the phone for employees of the AMI-Building, Boca Raton. This is where editor Bob Stevens got anthrax. Why did she wait two days before she visited that building again?
9. Why did Mayor Guilani sell WTC rubble to India for recycling and also China? Who made that decision?
10. What was the purpose of U.S. Ambassador Wendy Chamberlain's phone call on October 10, 2001 to the Pakistani oil minister? Why was she sure that a previously abandoned Unocal pipeline from Turkmenistan across Afghanistan to the Pakistani coast for the purpose of selling oil and gas to China, was back on the table in view of recent geopolitical developments?
11. What exactly was found on Z. Moussaoui's computer after 9/11, when local agents were given a Federal Intelligence Security Act (FISA) warrant, which they had requested six weeks previously? This ties directly into the question of the administration's dealings with the Taliban, its reluctance to investigate Saudi nationals, etc.
12. Why the attack on Cynthia McKinney for asking: 1) why has there been no investigation of the 9-11 attack? and 2) did Bush/CIA/NSA know of it beforehand, and allow it to happen?
13. Why is the Bush administration so strongly against a real investigation into the events of 9-11?
14. Why did the US give 43 million dollars to Afghanistan back in May or June of 2001
15. Why did Bush toss the Hart-Rudman terror security study (developed over a 2 year period) and instead assign responsibility to Cheney and FEMA?
16. Why did Ashcroft stops flying commercial, citing an unidentified "threat" in July 2001? Why did the FBI and Justice not identify the form, origin and time of the threat?
17. Why did Bush stay in Texas for the month of August and Cheney in Wyoming?
18. Why no photos or videos of the Pentagon plane? And there's not a single credible frame of film or second of video of this? Also, why hasn't a similar flight path graphic ever been published?
19. Why didn't the Secret Service hustle Dubya out of the classroom a half-second after Andy Card told him, "Mr. pResident, the nation is under attack"?
20. Why did they leave him exposed to danger for two and a half minutes in the classroom and another half-hour in the school before he returned to the relative safety of Air Force One?
21. Where was George H. W. Bush at the time of the attacks?
22. Why did passengers or crewmembers on three of the flights tell people on the ground that the highjackers had "box cutters"?
23. Where are the flight recorders?
24. How did they find a passport that just "happens" to belong to one of the hijackers in the WTC rubble and they can't locate even ONE flight recorder?
25. Why no investigative reporting of the Pentagon scene? The photos do not show much, but then photographers were not allowed, initially, to photograph the scene, if I remember correctly.
26. Why was the series of recommendations Al Gore also put together in 1996 on airport security called by Republican congress "paranoid" and too harsh. Why did the airline industry, lobbying against it, consider it too expensive and impractical.
27. Why was the Hart-Rudman report on the potential dangers of terrorism in the homeland. The results of the research ignored by Bush?
28. Why were FISA warrants disallowed by Bush?
29. Why did the US pull the plug on Muslim websites Monday September 10, 2001?
30. Why did the Saudi bin-Laden-group have a website with a PRE-SET expiration date of Sept. 11, 2001?
31. Why were the bin Ladens flown out of the U.S. on private jets the day after the 9/11?
32. Why did Cheney say that everyone in the White House started taking Cipro on September 12 when the first anthrax letter wasn't postmarked until September 18.
33. Why did Bush dissolve the Bin Laden Task Force? What would have happened had this focused and knowledgeable group been in place 9 months before 911?
34. Why was metallic debris found 8 miles from the crash site of the plane that went down in Penn? They said it went straight down and left a small hole in the ground. If they found metallic debris from the plane 8 miles away it was either shot down or a bomb exploded in the plane.
35. Why did they not let the media or any reporters take video or photos of the crash site?
Posted by Sunnyside on :
Gordon, you're funny.
Ok, there are ALOT of questions. Thanks for enumerating them for me.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
It looks like they answered number 15. Just a few hundred more and we'll consider the case closed. Posted by Dustoff 1 on :
Ok, enough is enough, i'm weighing in on this now.
While in North Carolina in 2003 at a family [wifes] get together I went to a Pentecostal Church service..All white... They were hard working farmers and such. Most of the younger folks were college graduates who still lived in the area but were working in successful jobs away from the the farm..Most have daily contact with family members..
By the way, they speak of Black people as freinds and neighbors and joke around how some blacks will drop into service for a listen and sing along...Some whites do the same, they actually speak so very open about race it floored me..Great lesson learned..
We went to a local Black service just for the choir, and it was exellent. One fella asked me if was a lost soul from that church of the singing challenged group of farmers down the road........I started cracking up, the big guy did the same,,,,,, and then praise the lord in a big tenor voice..Lots of feeling in both churches and i mean you can actually feel it..
Guess what, most were democrates, both churches...
I spoke with a person who went to a service at a new church a little outside of the area..She said " There is something wrong over there" they do not seem to have much background in religion and sure do talk politics, new cars and how to make more money...Sumpin about a new christian housing devlopement the church was husseling..
Guees what...........New church in the countryside, all so-called republicans...Also the woman mentioned they didn't seem very well educated..
Posted by glassman on :
9. Why didn't the Secret Service hustle Dubya out of the classroom a half-second after Andy Card told him, "Mr. pResident, the nation is under attack"?
20. Why did they leave him exposed to danger for two and a half minutes in the classroom and another half-hour in the school before he returned to the relative safety of Air Force On
i answered that already..
he was protected by children.....
you do realise this would mean the secret service is part of it right?
Posted by Relentless. on :
There was reports that air force one's transponder frequency was comprimised at some point throughout that day.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
I have no idea. They do follow orders without question though, I assume?
quote:Originally posted by glassman: 9. Why didn't the Secret Service hustle Dubya out of the classroom a half-second after Andy Card told him, "Mr. pResident, the nation is under attack"?
20. Why did they leave him exposed to danger for two and a half minutes in the classroom and another half-hour in the school before he returned to the relative safety of Air Force On
i answered that already..
he was protected by children.....
you do realise this would mean the secret service is part of it right?
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Just as a fun exercise, can anyone look over the list and not find at least forty questions they'd like to know the answers to?
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
That's convenient.
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: There was reports that air force one's transponder frequency was comprimised at some point throughout that day.
Posted by T e x on :
"you do realise this would mean the secret service is part of it right?"
allz it would take is complicity of few dept/agency heads...the "troops" would just be following orders, no?
Posted by Dustoff 1 on :
quote:Originally posted by Dustoff 1: Ok, enough is enough, i'm weighing in on this now.
While in North Carolina in 2003 at a family [wifes] get together I went to a Pentecostal Church service..All white... They were hard working farmers and such. Most of the younger folks were college graduates who still lived in the area but were working in successful jobs away from the the farm..Most have daily contact with family members..
By the way, they speak of Black people as freinds and neighbors and joke around how some blacks will drop into service for a listen and sing along...Some whites do the same, they actually speak so very open about race it floored me..Great lesson learned..
We went to a local Black service just for the choir, and it was exellent. One fella asked me if was a lost soul from that church of the singing challenged group of farmers down the road........I started cracking up, the big guy did the same,,,,,, and then praise the lord in a big tenor voice..Lots of feeling in both churches and i mean you can actually feel it..
Guess what, most were democrates, both churches...
I spoke with a person who went to a service at a new church a little outside of the area..She said " There is something wrong over there" they do not seem to have much background in religion and sure do talk politics, new cars and how to make more money...Sumpin about a new christian housing devlopement the church was husseling..
Guees what...........New church in the countryside, all so-called republicans...Also the woman mentioned they didn't seem very well educated..
------------------------------------------------ any comment griffon..Just about anybody in the south should know what I am talking about here.
Hard working is the key word.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Point taken, Dustoff. This is a thread about Democrats. I'll post the 9/11 list on a new thread.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by T e x: "you do realise this would mean the secret service is part of it right?"
allz it would take is complicity of few dept/agency heads...the "troops" would just be following orders, no?
i knew some agents when i lived in the DC area... they were squeaky, i mean really squeaky.... it would take some doing IMO, but? yes, the boss is the boss in that kind of organistation.... i dion't know exactly what their code of ethics is... what do they keep secret what do they report? the constition shuld come before the president, but those guys may not believe that?
we are looking right at waht they did, and seeing what they did... they weren't too rushed about it...
i just don't know....
i didn't want to think that Reagans people were trading the Iran contra cocaine thing either tho...
Posted by Johnwayne on :
The problem fellas is most of the questions you are asking can only be answered by very secretive agencies, not prone to answering even basic harmless questions. I am of a different mind set than some here but I can attribute that to being born and raised in Iowa. In Iowa you are not raised to question government. You are raised to stand at attention and salute your flag. You are raised to respect the office, even if you disagree with the office holder. You are raised to respect and trust all authority figures. You didn't make accusations like these when I was growing up. my dad was raised in Fredricksburg, Iowa population 1,000. What do you think he knows of conspiricies? The closest I have ever heard him to saying something was a conspiracy is questioning Hillary's sexual orientation. Now I am by partisan on this. I don't believe all of the stuff I have heard about Dems either.
Gordon - I believe Oswald acted alone, in the act of shooting. Now I do believe it is possible that he had help from other people, possibly Castro or the mob. But he took that shot by himself, there was not another gunman.
And Sunnyside- I will always attempt to rise to my brother's defense. Sorry if that offends you but I'm not changing that.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Of course you do. You were brought up to not question the Government. Of course, that doesn't stop you from doing so now, if you wish. Have you seen the magic bullet theory?
quote:Originally posted by Johnwayne: Gordon - I believe Oswald acted alone.
Posted by Dustoff 1 on :
This thread is getting more boring than counting old growth tree rings.. Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
For Lee Harvey Oswald to have been the lone gunman, you have to accept that only 3 shots were fired. After all, only 3 casing were found in the Texas School Depository. Plus you have the problem of how long it takes to get each new shot fired from the bolt-action Mannlicher-Carcano rifle found there.
The chief proponent of the single bullet theory was the Warren Commission's junior counsel, Arlen Specter, now U.S. Senator from Pennsylvania. His thesis was adopted by the Warren Commission which allowed for thier conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in assassinating President John F. Kennedy.
The single bullet theory says that one bullet hit Kennedy in the back, exited his neck and then continued on to hit Connally in the back, wrist and leg. The bullet eventually falls out of Connally's leg and onto his stretcher at Parkland.
The found "magic bullet" is in near perfect condition. It is a one inch long, copper jacketed, lead core, 6.5 mm rifle bullet.
The single bullet theory proposes three shots: 1. Misses limousine completely 2. The magic bullet hitting Kennedy and Connally 3. The fatal head shot to President Kennedy
Posted by glassman on :
JW? i am damn good with a rifle, i coulda done it with a quality semi-auto, like a browning....
i don't think he coulda run the bolt that fast and gotten back on target... just IMO
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Even with a semi-auto could you, with only one bullet, have hit Kennedy in the back then continued on to hit Connally in the back, wrist and leg? Posted by Dustoff 1 on :
RD, should we live'n this coffin up a little..lol Posted by glassman on :
possible.... i've seen the diagrams.... highly improbable, but possible...
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Just a little pointless truth seeking, Dustoff.
quote:Originally posted by Dustoff 1: RD, should we live'n this coffin up a little..lol
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
And afterwards would that same bullet still be in near-perfect condition?
quote:Originally posted by glassman: possible.... i've seen the diagrams.... highly improbable, but possible...
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Just saw an 89 year old on Discovery channel do it a few days ago. Now I'm no military expert but Oswalt scored 48 out of 50 on his rapid fire exam and I believe 49 out of 50 one other time. The distance in those exams was I believe 120 yards. Kennedy was shot from 88 yards. Also the trajectory of the shot and when Kennedy was shot means the shot could only have come from one angle, the angle of the book supository. Can someone with more knowledge than I: Break down the rapid fire exam Oswalt took and Explain what category 48 out of 50 would put Oswalt in? IE average shot, crack shot, lusy shot etc.
Posted by Griffon on :
"any comment griffon..Just about anybody in the south should know what I am talking about here.
Hard working is the key word."
Yes, the fact that the churches let you know what their politics are in public proclamation means they are engaged in malpractice.
Doesn't matter to me what party they are Dusty. It also doesn't matter to me what the intelligence level of a person is. They are still human beings. Would you disagree?
As to the hard working-Southerner reference, I know there are hard working Southerners, same type of people happen in the North. You should know that coming from Oregon hich is in the north. But you know, I thought we were "one nation" after all.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Oswald was behind the motorcade. As the Zapruder film proves, the fatal shot came from the direction of the grassy knoll. That's quite a ricochet!
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by Johnwayne: Just saw an 89 year old on Discovery channel do it a few days ago. Now I'm no military expert but Oswalt scored 48 out of 50 on his rapid fire exam and I believe 49 out of 50 one other time. The distance in those exams was I believe 120 yards. Kennedy was shot from 88 yards. Also the trajectory of the shot and when Kennedy was shot means the shot could only have come from one angle, the angle of the book supository. Can someone with more knowledge than I: Break down the rapid fire exam Oswalt took and Explain what category 48 out of 50 would put Oswalt in? IE average shot, crack shot, lusy shot etc.
as i recall? And that's *some* recalling, btw... been so long...anyway, I was thinking his scores and testimony from other Marines was that he barely qualified
Posted by Griffon on :
You know this on-going struggle, which I have only maintained in this thread when you were present to respond, is like a scene from an old movie. In Excalibur, King Arthur is riding up to a bridge where Lancelot will let no one pass. I prefer the Monty Python edition of the story but this has the line we both can learn from:
Lancelot to Arthur as they are fighting, (please note I have changed a few words because in our present context they would be considered inflammatory and justly so)"Your anger has unbalanced you, You sir would fight to the death against a person who is not your enemy."
We are metaphorically at that cross-roads, on that bridge. Do we choose to stay in this vicious cycle and let self-righteous indignation win? Or do we choose to take another path, perhaps even the higher ground if you will, around our conflicted opinions of President Carter's actions? Can we see past the perceived slights that are in reality reactions rooted in our deeply held desire for a better world?
Let me allow you to begin defining that new world. And please note I didn't say "new World Order" another image that is not biblical.
Comments anyone? Dusty?
Posted by Relentless. on :
48 out of 50 means he was damn good. The shot was possible.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Not from the wrong direction, it wasn't.
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: 48 out of 50 means he was damn good. The shot was possible.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Would a rapid fire test involve a moving target or stationary?
Posted by Johnwayne on :
You are talking because of the head snap Gordon? I believe I saw a test with a dummy that did the same thing when shot from the supository. I'm going to track this down a little to see if my memory is faulty.
Posted by T e x on :
found this, haven't checked reliability. Presumably, there's no point in lying--would be too easy to refute (bold, my emphasis):
quote:Even after weeks of practice and intensive training, Oswald barely managed to qualify at the level of "Sharpshooter," the middle of three rifle qualification levels in the Marines. He obtained a score of 212, two points above the minimum for the "Sharpshooter" level. In other words, even after extensive training and practice, and even though he was firing at stationary targets with a semi-automatic rifle and had plenty of time to shoot (even during the so-called "rapid-fire" phase), Oswald narrowly missed scoring at the lowest possible qualification level.
The next time Oswald fired for record in the Marines, he barely managed to qualify at all, obtaining a score of 191, which was one point above the minimum needed for the lowest qualification level, "Marksman." To put it another way, he came within two points of failing to qualify.
lol, Duke...that *really* should be a different thread...
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
The head snap and the exit wound.
quote:Originally posted by Johnwayne: You are talking because of the head snap Gordon? I believe I saw a test with a dummy that did the same thing when shot from the supository. I'm going to track this down a little to see if my memory is faulty.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
That's odd Tex- The show I watched on Discovery, at least claimed to be looking at his test score book and had him at 48 for 50 at least a few times.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Wow that would be a talent!
quote:Originally posted by T e x: "when shot from the supository."
lol, Duke...that *really* should be a different thread...
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Was he a good enough shot to fire from a different direction than where he was?
quote:Originally posted by Johnwayne: That's odd Tex- The show I watched on Discovery, at least claimed to be looking at his test score book and had him at 48 for 50 at least a few times.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Tex- LOL Well it's Friday and I just,,,, wait it's Sunday can't use that one Well it's......
Ahh hell I just got my wires crossed. Major wire crossage there LOL!
How do you guys do those smily face things on posts? I'm tired of saying LOL when I'm joking.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
<- Instant Graemlins
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Yep.
quote:Originally posted by T e x: "you do realise this would mean the secret service is part of it right?"
allz it would take is complicity of few dept/agency heads...the "troops" would just be following orders, no?
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ped reading right here...
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