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I don't "KNOW" that it is a waste of time, but I have every good reason to suspect it is and that's more than good reason enough to want it stopped.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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Religious left dialoging with the religious right on political issues is the salvation of this nation. Conversations, on war, homosexuality, prayer in school, evolution and creation, poverty, human rights, faith based initiatives and abortion can be the topics of the day and it won't be one-sided anymore.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim Posts: 896 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jul 2006
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And the poor will have a voice again because we on the religious left spend alot of time and money working to give the poor things like cars, air conditioners, food, medicine, glasses, jobs, homes (habitat for humanity is an organization that brings religious right and left together) and much more. Religion is the grass-roots voice that will join with other voices:
Here's the truth behind the myth, people feel that religion should have a voice in the public square. This article offers access to several other articles which give a broad perspective of public religious life.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim Posts: 896 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jul 2006
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this one shows how we can disagree as Christians and still work for a common goal, to feed the hungry, clothe the naked and visit the sick and imprisoned.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim Posts: 896 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jul 2006
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"So was slavery. So does that make it desirable"
Thanks for reminding me bdgee, slavery ended because religious people got uppity. Good hard working Christians. Now to be sure good but mis-guided Christians were on the other side, manipulated by the sin of economic prosperity and the need for power, but in the end it was true spiritual people who led the charge for Abolition and then went on to Women's Right to Vote and Civil Rights, another effort to end another type of slavery. Thanks for crossing over bdgee
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim Posts: 896 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jul 2006
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Whoever told you that, quite simply, had a gullible audience.
There were many many non-religious people that participated in ending slavery in the U.S.
There remain millions of "good God-fearing Christians" that would happily return black people to servitude. Without them, Bush wouldn't be in office.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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"There were many many non-religious people that participated in ending slavery in the U.S."
About 4%, which given that millions participated in the Civil War, could be many. But the people who ended slavery were predominantly Christians and Jews, religious, flawed human beings all, but 96% expressing a belief in a personal God. Simply fact of the times.
"There remain millions of "good God-fearing Christians" that would happily return black people to servitude. Without them, Bush wouldn't be in office."
What a profound lie from an educator no less.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim Posts: 896 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jul 2006
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Now let's turn to Women's Rights and the Civil Rights movement. Who were the movers and shakers? Christians and Jews, every one of them.
I see why you don't like to draw from history bdgee, it's not your subject. From the beginnings of this country forward to the present day, religion has been a force for good, and the minority for ill, but faith propelled this country to new heights of education, business and inovation.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim Posts: 896 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jul 2006
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this one shows how we can disagree as Christians and still work for a common goal, to feed the hungry, clothe the naked and visit the sick and imprisoned.
-------------------- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Benjamin Franklin Posts: 3898 | Registered: Dec 2005
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"Real Christians (i.e. followers of Christ) are generally wonderful, humble, peace-seeking people (They are also very few and far between)."
Gordon, that sounds just like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. They too think few will be saved. This sentence is not what you usually say about religious folks. I think "real" Christians, like myself, are those who say, "God if I'm going to get through this day, it's because you lift me up." How many is a matter for God to decide, and I am content to let that rest in God's hands.
"Political "Christians" are nothing more than a cancer on America."
Are you suggesting Barak Obama, John Kerry and of late, Hillary Clinton are a cancer on America, or are you suggesting we good, humble, faithful Christians should get rid of our worldview if we want to vote? Or are you suggesting that
If you are speaking of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, I think it is wonderful that we liberal Clergy are beginning to challenge them. This is an important step in the salvation of this nation.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim Posts: 896 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jul 2006
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If you are speaking of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, I think it is wonderful that we liberal Clergy are beginning to challenge them. This is an important step in the salvation of this nation.
challenge them? how?
salvation of nations? again? the US is not going to heaven or hell... there is no nationality there... you are just like the Taliban and the Robrtsons and Falwell, and the Ayatoluhs...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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Poll: Most Americans Say They're Christian Varies Greatly From the World at Large
Analysis By Gary Langer
July 18 — Ask Americans their religion and you'll get an earful — 50 individual answers in an ABCNEWS/Beliefnet poll, ranging from agnostics to Zen Buddhists. The vast majority, though, have something in common: Jesus Christ.
Eighty-three percent of Americans identify themselves as Christians. Most of the rest, 13 percent, have no religion. That leaves just 4 percent as adherents of all non-Christian religions combined — Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and a smattering of individual mentions. That's quite different from the world at large: Fifty-two percent of the world's population is non-Christian, compared to 4 percent in the United States; and one-third is Christian, compared to 83 percent in the United States. (These are rough comparisons, because the world figures, reported by the Encyclopedia Britannica, are for the full population, while the U.S. figures are among adults only.)
Religion in the U.S. vs. the World: US World Christian 83% 33 No religion 13 15 All non-Christian religions 4 52
-------------------- Thanks Matto. Thanks Juice. Posts: 2945 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2006
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I know many who consider themselves christians who have never and don't plan on ever setting foot in a church.
Posts: 1235 | From: Anacortes, WA | Registered: Apr 2005
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"salvation of nations? again? the US is not going to heaven or hell... there is no nationality there... you are just like the Taliban and the Robrtsons and Falwell, and the Ayatoluhs..."
Here you fall into their trap Glass; they would argue only by making the country more "faithful" in their image can we be saved. They speak literally, politically and theologically. I am speaking metaphorically of the conversation beginning between religious folks from the left and the right that will reign in the power of the far right religious agenda.
To me, reigning in Falwell and Robertson, balancing them out in the public square would be a saving act for this nation. Now the far left has done that recently by trying to reign in the voice of Robertson and Falwell and their like. That's the wrong approach and all it has done is mobilize the far right Christian base. But now in the religious left, there is a group of pastors and lay-persons that speak the same language, in the same context, but they have a different message.
I do not know how much theological background you have been exposed to so if this is a re-hash, my bad. One quick way to tell the difference between Christians that are likely to vote for a party advancing social reform and those who are more likely to vote the other way is this. How a person understands the return of Christ is a dead give away in most cases. The question is will Christ return to usher in a millenial reign and change the world then by destroying and remaking the world, or can we as the church begin to make the world a better place: human rights/justice, war on poverty, ecologically and more, so when Christ returns the world will be renewed.
There are countless implications for this conversation in issues like: war, poverty, addiction, homelessness, enviroment, land use, abortion, capital punishment, homosexuality, hunger, domestic violence, etc.
Now if you would like to see wht I mean by that in greater detail, I would try to express it in another post. But for now let me put it this way:
"just amongst Christian sects there is much to argue about..."
this is the case, and how we argue is important. But imagine if the side that doesn't agree with Robertson and Falwell start to reclaim their voice.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim Posts: 896 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jul 2006
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True JW, but I remember they taught us in journalism school that all polls are inherently flawed, and if you've conducted many you realize that right away. As I stated, I have always known people who have never even read the bible who consider themselves Christian, and when you press them on it you find out they think christian means anglo-saxon, lol.
Posts: 1235 | From: Anacortes, WA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: "I know many who consider themselves christians who have never and don't plan on ever setting foot in a church."
They are making a mistake, but under God's grace there is time to change their minds.
-------------------- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Benjamin Franklin Posts: 3898 | Registered: Dec 2005
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See life without Christian community, which does not always need to be a church, undermines the very core of the Gospel. Nevertheless, I agree with you Leo in terms of committed Christians. The polls say 80%, I say that anecdotal evidence shows that is wrong. If 80% were fully practicing faith there would be no poverty, no hunger, no homelessness, no need for abortions, etc. because the church would have the people to meet the needs. In other words, our society's ills would be gone if the country had the level of faithful Christians those polls say.
That said, many struggling people look to Christ as their only hope in a pain-filled world. They too will find God's grace lifts them up and indicts this nation.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim Posts: 896 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jul 2006
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Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."
-------------------- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Benjamin Franklin Posts: 3898 | Registered: Dec 2005
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"Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."
You took this out of context, look at what they say about worship in Acts and 1 Corinthians. Consider that Jesus both went to a solitary place to pray and was very public in worship. It takes both. Hypocricy is found in church folk but also in people who say, "I don't need the church to worship God."
how about this one:
Wherever two or more are gathered in my name I am with you.
Or this one:
Acts 2:38 and following:
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and to the other apostles, “Brothers,a what should we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you, for your children, and for all who are far away, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to him.” And he testified with many other arguments and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” So those who welcomed his message were baptized, and that day about three thousand persons were added. They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. Awe came upon everyone, because many wonders and signs were being done by the apostles. All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need. Day by day, as they spent much time together in the temple, they broke bread at homeb and ate their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having the goodwill of all the people. And day by day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.
Or this one from 1 Corinthians 12:
For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. Indeed, the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot would say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear would say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many members, yet one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” On the contrary, the members of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and those members of the body that we think less honorable we clothe with greater honor, and our less respectable members are treated with greater respect; 1 whereas our more respectable members do not need this. But God has so arranged the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior member, that there may be no dissension within the body, but the members may have the same care for one another. If one member suffers, all suffer together with it; if one member is honored, all rejoice together with it."
All of that to say, if we're going to use scripture, I am prepared for a fun time, but I must warn you, no one wins by simply appealing to scripture. Next post will share some more on the topic of solitary Christians.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim Posts: 896 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jul 2006
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All of that to say, if we're going to use scripture, I am prepared for a fun time, but I must warn you, no one wins by simply appealing to scripture. Next post will share some more on the topic of solitary Christians.
scripture is easy...
we could fill the internet with cut-n-paste innuendo and contradiction....
for instance?
Christ was for slavery? or not?
Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
i propose to you that Christ was actully trying to communicate a physics lesson here...
everything is connected...
we know that in our "gut" or "heart" but? scientists are still trying to prove that today...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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exactly right, you get the point of perichoretic co-activity. We are connected, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 12. You are beginning to see my point evolution as an aspect of God's creation; Superstring theory is cosmic-ally true. We are connected that ontological description of personhood.
And see, that is why the "Dark Bible" can't ever get at the truth. It presupposes the revelation of God as static, fixed in time. It also presupposes God is not interactionist and moving us to understanding. This has been a funny toy of those who suffer from religio-phobia. What it actually reveals is the lack of Biblical understanding people have.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim Posts: 896 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Griffon: "everything is connected..."
exactly right, you get the point of perichoretic co-activity. We are connected, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 12. You are beginning to see my point evolution as an aspect of God's creation; Superstring theory is cosmic-ally true. We are connected that ontological description of personhood.
And see, that is why the "Dark Bible" can't ever get at the truth. It presupposes the revelation of God as static, fixed in time. It also presupposes God is not interactionist and moving us to understanding. This has been a funny toy of those who suffer from religio-phobia. What it actually reveals is the lack of Biblical understanding people have.
-------------------- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Benjamin Franklin Posts: 3898 | Registered: Dec 2005
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and the need for power, but in the end it was true spiritual people who led the charge for Abolition and then went on to Women's Right to Vote and Civil Rights, another effort to end another type of slavery. Thanks for crossing over bdgee
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