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Posted by Griffon on :
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060725/pl_nm/religion_politics_usa_dc

nuff said
 

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Posted by john wayne on :
 
Allright!!!!!!!!! That is great news.
 

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Posted by Griffon on :
 
Good to see the religious people of this land beginning to dialog. I think I feel the wind of revival coming! Course the question is will Howard Dean be able to let them in given his stance on religion as the whipping child for his defeat.
 

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Posted by Leo on :
 
Yippee skippy, go religious zealots, blah blah blah!!!

Maybe we'll see a religious house divided, that would be nice. The sooner people who can't live without a deity take the 'Organized' out of Organized Religion the better. Especially the people who call themselves Christ-like (christian). As I recall, Jesus started fighting organized religion as a child and met his fate fighting it. Why, therefore, would anybody who wants to truly be 'like' Christ belong to Organized Religion? It seems oxymoronish to me...
 

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Posted by glassman on :
 
you remeber correctly Leo...

Christ was a liberal left-winger...
 

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Posted by john wayne on :
 
Right wing and left wing religious voters.... me like!!
 

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Posted by Griffon on :
 
Sermon Notes

There was an article in the Boston Globe that _________ emailed me the other day.

It seems Willy the Cat was stealing garden gloves in this Pelham NY neighborhood. He’s been labeled the feline felon.

And when a glove or set of gloves turns up missing, neighbors make the journey over to pick the gloves up from the Pifer family.

Last Thursday, 9 pairs and 5 single gloves were hanging from the clothes line. Everyone knew the culprit was Willy the feline felon.

But we’re not here today to just talk about clepto cats or feline felons. I want to talk to you about those things that steal something far more important than gloves.

I want to ask: where has the joy gone? I said it before God is in this house! Amen?

Again I said it before Jesus Christ is in this place! Amen?

And anyone that ever read the Pentecost story of Acts 2 knows the Holy Spirit of God, the very presence of God IS…IN…THIS…PLACE!!! Amen?

But sometimes, I get t-i-r-e-d. How bout you?

Sometimes, I f-e-e-l (pause) a wearinesssss aching down in my bones. How bout you? And when I feel that wearinesssss aching, there ain’t no joy…no joy at all, it is the Valley of the dry bones.

But then God says, Preach-errrrr, these bones with live! Now let me tell you, THAT is the promise of God and in that we know we can find joy.

So how do we confront the things that steal joy? How do we confront our glove stealing cats?

Let’s begin by confessing the world can really wear us out. Can I get a hearty AMEN to that? You ever feel beat up by the world? Then you’re in good company, let’s tell it out.

Know What
Philippians is often referred to as Paul’s ¬epistle of joy.

God breathes joy and life out upon tired, hurting and discouraged people in the vision of Ezekiel 37.

Ezekiel 37 is a vision God gave to the prophet Ezekiel when they were in the Babylonian Captivity.

Some of the things that steal my joy that put me in the captivity:

 27 items in the 20 item lane
 Being tired
 Being hungry
 Being lonely
 Driving in Chicago
 Friends in Israel/Palestine/Lebanon and the world in harm’s way
 Sometimes heat; other times cold
 Paperwork

You know though, even when the Israelites were in that captivity, that valley of bones Ezekiel says, the breath of God entered them and they still had the witness!

Even when we feel like we are in that “Exile” or “Captivity” God has an eternal plan for us that includes new, whole life in Jesus Christ, and in Christ we got the witness cause God’s got a plan.

So What
And Because God has a plan, and not just any plan, AMEN, but God’s got an eternal plan for us, and the cares of this world, those things that threaten to steal our joy cannot overcome or defeat us.

God breathed new life into us and we are set free to live and love.

Folks things might steal our joy sometimes, but remember as Ezekiel tells us, we got the breath of God as witness! And in that witness is life.

Now What

Lots of things steal our joy to be sure

The church down the road might try stealing our joy but… we got the witness!!!!

The church on TV, that looks so big and strong, might try stealing our joy but…we got the witness!!!!!

Bills, work, news, weather, health; they might all try to steal our joy but…we got the witness!!!!!!!!

We need not surrender to the fears, the time clocks, the hates, the hopelessness and the violence of this world because…we got the witness!

And something else you should know: we got the witness because…we got God’s “Mojo.” God’s mojo isn’t magic, it just plain pure power!

Now that word might sound a bit strange coming from a preacher, but you know what, the world’s been stealing our words and giving them new meanings: conviction holiness, justice, and more.

I like the way this word sounds so I’m stealing it away from the world’s meaning. God’s mojo is this:

You have been saved from the cruelty of a world drunk with the wine of its sin. If you have faith in Christ, God has eternity in mind for you! You are royalty! Your freedom bought and paid for at a high price revealed at the cross, at the empty tomb. Oh sisters and brothers …

What care of this world can overcome that, what can steal our joy in the face of God’s saving grace?

Don’t let the “joy killers” steal your joy by focusing on things that grow joy in you:

 Jesus Christ
 Friends
 Family
 Scripture
 Prayer

Now before I wrap up I do want to mention the other side of joy: temporary happiness, quick fixes to real sorrows.

It’s also possible that you are like a friend I met the other day as he flung the store door open in my face…tell about the young man seeking joy and easing of pain from beer, getting aggressive at Casey’s.

Many things give us the appearance of joy. They seem to help us feel better, but in reality they fail us. Some of them wreck our health, some jeopardize our lives, some dull or mask pain that is in reality still there.

As Ezekiel said, the breath of God gives life to dry bones.

We find in Christ the strength to stand in new ways as we meet the circumstances of the world with grace and love.

When we do that we share the Holy Spirit, the presence of God, to change this world by breathing the breath of life upon them!

It’s a great mission to be a part of!

Finally, consider how God has raised you to new life out of situations where it seemed joy was never coming back. And if you feel led by the life-providing, joy-giving God, then I ask you to talk to me about sharing that witness in an up-coming worship service about the joy God has given you! Let’s Pray about that!

Witness is a 10 week study I want to offer to lay speakers and lay leaders beginning September 17th at 7pm at Oakville. If others are interested, please contact me or Grace at the office.
 

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Posted by Griffon on :
 
"Christ was a liberal left-winger..."

Yes he was, and I am too, just currently traveling without party.
 

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Posted by Leo on :
 
Now that's what I call a hamburger helper sermon.
 

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Posted by Griffon on :
 
"would anybody who wants to truly be 'like' Christ belong to Organized Religion?"

Mark 1:
"They went to Capernaum; and when the sabbath came, he entered the synagogue and taught."

Luke 4
When he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, he went to the synagogue on the sabbath day, as was his custom. He stood up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written:
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to let the oppressed go free,
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
And he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant, and sat down. The eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. Then he began to say to them, “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his mouth."

Where is Jesus? Teaching in the synagogue. What relationship did Jesus have with organized Judaism? an examining and challenging one. But he was part of the organized people of God. He also obeyed every custom and was buried according to Jewish custom. His unorthodox resurrection did pose problems for the hierarchy of orthodox Judaism, but he was a Jew and we should remember that.
 

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Posted by Griffon on :
 
"Now that's what I call a hamburger helper sermon."

Good and meaty that's right...oops, not right, but correct!
 

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Posted by john wayne on :
 
Leo-
you just touched on another topic that is near and dear to my heart Hamburger helper. I love cheeseburger macaroni!

Say what you want boys. This religous left news made my day. Nothing you can say is going to ruin that. I feel like dancing in the streets.
 

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Posted by Leo on :
 
You may also recall he "worked" on the Sabbath day, and was harrassed for it by the Jewish religious leaders of his time. Jesus taught in the synagogues because that's where the people were, but eventually met his demise at the hands of the leaders of organised religion because his message threatened the very power that organized religion craves, the power to control how people live. Yes, Jesus was a Jew, but his message (life)of real faith, real love thy brother, and real freedom from religious oppression falls on deaf ears even today. Most Christians don't even worship on the same day as Jesus did (same day His Jews still do) as commanded in the Fourth Commandment. Go figure...
 

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Posted by Leo on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Griffon:
"Now that's what I call a hamburger helper sermon."

Good and meaty that's right...oops, not right, but correct!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Griffon:
Folks, why can't we all get excited about a religious voice that rises in challenge to the fundamentalist religious right? Seriously, a good debate on issues will ensue. It will force the public square to discuss issues like poverty, homelessness, war, militarism, exporting democracy, addiction, hunger and others. Would that not be more helpful than "hate Bush" and "hate Clinton?" We could debate issues that hit lives directly instead of who has the most photogenic face or the highest bank account? We could get past the cosmetic issues and to the real stuff, because that is what we as Christians and I am sure other faiths discuss.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Leo:
"make your own "helper""

lol, Nail on the head, hit it with a hammer!

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as you know, Leo, it ain't "rocket surgery"
 

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Posted by john wayne on :
 
I'm actually hoping that the democratic left is more the voice of Reverand Dr. Martin Luther King resonating. It is not Rove vs Rove. It is the left being forced to concede that in order to win elections, they must give the religous left a voice. That is how Rove won, he forced that concession. Yes I agree we definitely do not need two Roves.
 

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Posted by Griffon on :
 
"I am basically "Christian"
in that I understand the *message* as it pertains to me...
good to see you challenge the "fundamental religious right"
yet, must say...almost to a T, anytime in my life someone has entered espousing "Christian gospels"? Somehow I get hurt..
In my own, anecdotally-based life, the "church" has no more idea/grasp on Jesus than a homeless person has on high-finance."

Tex,
For your experience I am sincerely sorry. The more so because I know it to be too often the case. Let me take a different approach that I believe to be consistent with what Jesus taught. This is how I see myself:

I am a sinner. I will fail at times to love God and love my neighbor. I do not have full understanding of how to deal with ethical dilemas our world is confronted with. Without the grace of God and God's mercy, I will always fail to do justice. My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness.

Were you and I to meet Tex, there would be times we were the best of friends and other times I would disappoint you. As Paul said, I am chief among sinners. The very things I want to do, those I do not do. The very things I don't want to do, those things I do. You know, we haven't always agreed. And I have at times frustrated you. I am a flawed creature in God's creation and you are too. My prayer is that armed with God's grace, this sinner will treat you better than you have experienced in the past. And know, through our discussions on this site, this deeply broken person (me) idealist that I am, you help me to grow in grace; meaning our conversations challenge me to love my neighbor even when we mightily disagree.

I do not believe the church is necessary for salvation, nor is listening to me, only Christ and Him crucified. I believe every person's theology to be inadequate, for the only perfect understanding of God is the mind of Christ.

I hope you see I am low on the totem pole and hoping to grow. I haven't arrived, but I'm on the journey. And though we do at times disagree, you are welcome to walk beside me, maybe even a little ahead of me on the journey we all take.
 

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Posted by Griffon on :
 
"Why must I restrict a voice to oppose the religious right to a religious voice. What the rightwing religious fanatics prropose is unamericaan. So why can't you argue against them without it being based on religion. I don't have any problem arguing against their absurd selfish attitudes and claims without envoking religion of any sort."

Your religion/belief system is atheism bdgee. Feel free to argue against our self-less attitudes. The Constitution guarantees however our access to the public square as assuredly as it does yours. Freedom of Religion, non-establishment clause, is not proscription or prohibition of religion.

"The Constitutioon guarantees us a Government free of religious involvememt."

No it does not. It guarantees us the freedom to allow our religious views to be expressed publicly. The Establishment clause is a proscription against state religion, not freedom from religion. That is just a new gloss of the court system. Violation of our Civil Rights. Amazing, the Civil Rights movement came from the church movement, now the courts try to legislate it out.
 

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Posted by T e x on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by john wayne:
If it gets the focus off of conspiracy theories and personalities I'm for it.
I like that religion has a voice in both parties Tex. I believe their voice needs to be heard, and the dems now having to listen to religon, rather than ignore it, makes me very happy.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Griffon:
"if you'll notice? the "hot-spots" in the world are NOT about organic vegetables, not about cholesterol, not about mercury-poisoning, not about energy-audit-deficits, not about global-warming, not about "bad movies/poor TV," not about sketchy-satellite-reception, not about the national electric code, not about domes vs pyramids...."

you're right, hot-spots today are about politics, land and power. Secular basis couched in religious terms Tex. The fights are over property, real and intellectual, and who gets the big chair. Always the same struggle. Who has the most toys?

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deception-alert:

plenty of "no-toy" areas are seemingly quite willing to endeavor to persevere, without pressing a terrorist agenda.
 

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Posted by bdgee on :
 
"Your religion/belief system is atheism bdgee."


No, it just isn't something you can lock into you personal definition or preferences. Were you so good a Methodist as you believe you are, you not only would be true to your own beliefs, but would respect others being true to theirs.

Mostly you are 180 degrees from knowning anything about me. I'll give you a hint.......Read the Constitution.

"No it does not. It guarantees us the freedom to allow our religious views to be expressed publicly. The Establishment clause is a proscription against state religion, not freedom from religion. That is just a new gloss of the court system. Violation of our Civil Rights. Amazing, the Civil Rights movement came from the church movement, now the courts try to legislate it out."

That's BS. There is NO PART of the constitution guaranteeing you the right to be religious, only that the Government will not allow ANY law concerning religion, pro or con, directly or by construction......no law opposing it, no law supporting it. NO LAW! No law however seemingly innocent. And any law baased on religion or its practice would be one respecting religion.

There is quite specifically no place in the Constitution granting anyone the right to express any religion publicly.

What it says is that Congress shall make no law respecting religion.

There is no statement in the Constitution that grants to anyone freedom of religion. Indeed, the phrase "freedom of religion" is absent from the Constitution.
 

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Posted by john wayne on :
 
"There is quite specifically no place in the Constitution granting anyone the right to express any religion publicly"

Ever hear of freedom of speech Bdgee? Covers freedom to talk about dang near anything you want in public.
 

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Posted by glassman on :
 
uh? you guys forgetting that Clinton was a a bible thumper? a sinner as are we all....but a Southern Baptist no less...

and Tipper Gore? she was the one that got the ( PG ) ratings on music remeber?

During a 60 Minutes interview, broadcast on Dec. 5, he also attacked nonbelievers--or what Gore referred to as the "anti-religious view"-- calling them "arrogant" and "intimidating . . . making people who do believe in God feel like they're being put down and I don't like that. I've never liked that."
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/1999/still1.html


you guys that say the religious left lost its voice are just reacting to the big sin of Clinton's lie and Monica's lips...

Bush's bigger lies are there for all to see...

and roves lies are what you are repeating over and over....
 

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Posted by john wayne on :
 
From the article griff linked:

"According to scholars, the religious left has become its most active since the 1960s when the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. and other clergy -- black and white -- were key figures in the civil-rights and anti-Vietnam war movements."

That's from the article Glassman. Not my words.
Relgious left has been dormant. Now because of Rove democrats are forced to listen to the religous of their party. Rove does it again. If the democrats start talking religion than Rove is indeed a smooth operator.

Southern strategy works again.
 

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Posted by Griffon on :
 
"Clinton: a Southern Baptist no less..."

I thought he was Methodist. And the religious left? Maybe a religious centrist, but no lefty.

"you guys that say the religious left lost its voice are just reacting to the big sin of Clinton's lie and Monica's lips..."

Nope, I'm responding to Clinton's support of genocide as Warren Christopher said. Clinton's purgery has nothing to do with it. So who are you suggesting is the voice of the religious left?

Isn't it great to have a debate we can all have a strong opinion on, and we can all be right. Oops, better not say "right" there now that the religious left joined the fray. I guess I should say "correct" instead of right. Feels good to be back in the saddle again.
 

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Posted by Relentless. on :
 
Now Glass, he does have a point.
The religous left is mobilizing...
A horific venture to be sure.. but with all this peacenik crap going on for the last few years it is quite obvious.
I see the left making an enormous mistake in believing the current war is anything like the Vietnamn battle.
I see the right making a huge mistake in believing that there is any room for negotiation with anyone at this point.

edit: I should say the supposed "Right wing"
 

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Posted by glassman on :
 
"Clinton: a Southern Baptist no less..."

I thought he was Methodist. And the religious left? Maybe a religious centrist, but no lefty.

see? i toldja i could care less about the dems... i'm not one... and i don't know that much about 'em...

i didn't know they even HAD Methodists in Arkansas.. i thought they was all Baptists....
 

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Posted by Griffon on :
 
"Were you so good a Methodist as you believe you are, you not only would be true to your own beliefs, but would respect others being true to theirs."

I am and I do.

"There is NO PART of the constitution guaranteeing you the right to be religious"

It absolutely does give people the right to have religion, just as it gives you the right to be atheist in your religion. I have no problem with that until your access to the public square trumps my access to the public square simply on the basis of religion. The atheist religion should not replace Judeo-Christian religion. Nor should Judeo-Christian ethos which spawned the Constitution limit our acceptance of all citizens in the public square.

"There is no statement in the Constitution that grants to anyone freedom of religion."

Too bad and inconvenient for you that it was taught as freedom of religion for 175 years. That many prescedents swept aside, negating 96% of the peoples' civil rights. Hmmm...democracy in action.
 

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Posted by Griffon on :
 
Been working on this while we've been chatting, enjoy:

Have you ever noticed how a cookie bakes? If you have ever tried to bake, you quickly learn there are certain rules if the project is to be a success. If you put the dough directly on the oven rack, then, as the heat warms the dough, the would-be cookie wilts and falls through the rack- only to end up as a mess on the oven floor. What was meant to be a sweet treat for people becomes a brittle, burned lump of coal to bitter to enjoy. However, if the cookies are baked upon a cookie sheet, when the heat of the oven wilts the dough, the support the tray offers keeps the cookie in shape- molded by circumstances into a useful treat. As the heat bakes the cookie dough, puffs of steam break through the surface. This must happen, for if the cookie doesn’t let off steam, it will become a greasy, soggy mess that is good for nothing.
People are the same way. If we try to be good by strength or will alone, when the heat of stressful circumstances come, we wilt and fall through the cracks. Our own strength can only do one thing- leave us brittle and burned. Such circumstances leave us a useless and bitter lump of coal. But if Christ is our support we will be shaped into the thing God intends us to be- something that is a useful blessing to others. First though, if we would be useful, then, feeling the support of Christ we must let off steam before the stress of our circumstances leaves us soggy and good for nothing. May God direct you to stress-releasing opportunities to renew your strength in the comfort of God’s strength!
 

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Posted by john wayne on :
 
And wam bam it doesn't take long for Hillary to sniff out which way the wind is blowing.

Mrs. Clinton has used moderate rhetoric on other issues as well.
She said last week, "There is no contradiction between support for faith-based initiatives and upholding our constitutional principles."
However, Democrats have fought proposals by President Bush that would expand the role of religious groups in delivering social services.
Although some liberals have belittled religious people who populate the "red states," the senator said America is big enough for people to "live out their faith in the public square."

Notice the last sentence Bdgee?
And what was it you said....
"There is quite specifically no place in the Constitution granting anyone the right to express any religion publicly"
 

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Posted by glassman on :
 
RD, the peacenik crap always shows up when you hvae a "questioanble war" had there been WMD? or the Iraqis really welcomed US as liberators? the peacniks would still be around, but they would have NO traction....

if you think back? you'll remeber this was one of my big concerns early on when we started to realize there were were no WMDs, that people would be unwilling to support a very necessary offensive like what is prolly coming with Iran right now...
altho? i have to say? i think that Iran pretty much took care of that by saying Israel should be wiped off the map...people can't really argue about that can they
 

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Posted by glassman on :
 
She said last week, "There is no contradiction between support for faith-based initiatives and upholding our constitutional principles."
However, Democrats have fought proposals by President Bush that would expand the role of religious groups in delivering social services.

govt support? for faith-based inititives? link please...

i hope she did say it, i don't like her, and i don't want tax dollars going to fiath-based initiatives...
 

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Posted by john wayne on :
 
Glassman-
please let Hillary know that, it looks like she is pandering to them already.
I know you are no fan of Hillary but it looks like she's trying for the religous vote. Now how will that sit with the rest of the party? It will be interesting.
 

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Posted by john wayne on :
 
link-
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050126-121258-1641r.htm
 

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Posted by glassman on :
 
"The Clintons, on faith-based solutions, have always been way ahead of the curve," said Rivers, citing President Clinton's support of a 1996 law banning the federal government from discriminating against religious organizations seeking funding available to groups delivering social services.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/01/20/sen_clinton_urges_use_of_fa ith_based_initiatives?mode=PF

don't bother i found it...

just proves my point that you are both full crap and so is the religious right...

the left isn't religious? LOL....

you guys aren't roves children are you? you have spouted more party line BS than most...

i toldja a little while ago the clintons were bible thumpers... they went to church all the time while they were in the white house... i remeber seeing it onthe news..
 

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Posted by glassman on :
 
Hillary in the middle on values issues


By Joseph Curl
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clint

i think it's HILLARYOUS that she is now a centrist for her faith...

after practicing it all her life...

what a crock of chit...

wasn't she the one that said it takes a village to raise a child? isn't the center of the village a church? LOL...

the rovisms are so pervasive you don't even know when you do it....
 

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Posted by john wayne on :
 
Oh so she has always embraced this, well I didn't know that but am glad to hear it. I didn't pick that up in the article I read, did you?
Is this why you don't care for Hillary?
 

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Posted by glassman on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by john wayne:
Oh so she has always embraced this, well I didn't know that but am glad to hear it.
Is this why you don't care for Hillary?

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i toldja along time ago buddy....

she wants my bullets... she ain't gettin 'em...
 

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Posted by glassman on :
 
"I think what we're seeing is, at least rhetorically, the attempt of the ultimate makeover," said Gary Bauer, president of the American Values organization and a former Republican presidential candidate

"american values" what rich bull chit... i want this guys work for my garden....

the Clintons went to Church all the time... Gore too...

you guys need to get out some...
 

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Posted by glassman on :
 
BTW? i think giving tax dollars to faith based initiatives is WRONG...
it is unconstitutional
AND?
it will lead to corruption within faith based organisations...

granting is a nasty competitive game...

lastly?

Faith based initiatives are supposed to be voluntary from the heart...

the best way to take God out of it? is to get tax dollars in....
 

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Posted by john wayne on :
 
Second ammendmant supporter? Allright I like my second ammendment too.
Now as far as Rove goes, yes you are right, I did not know that Rove used his political muscle to show Hillary moving to the center by way of this article. Hardly proves me to be full of crap.
Man you guys are placing alot of people under Roves thumb.
 

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Posted by john wayne on :
 
What did Rove do to get these quotes out of democrats?

Still, Mr. Black noted that Democrats have learned a lesson from the 2004 election: They've got to "be able to talk to conservatives and people of faith."
Mary Anne Marsh, a Democratic consultant, said Mrs. Clinton's rhetoric represents "not a change in position as much as an example of change in the way Democrats can talk about things, and especially anything about values."
"What Democrats are learning is there's a way to talk about it in a way that is respectful of the values of people on both sides of the issues," she said, addressing the sense of intolerance among the Democratic Party that many pundits said was a shortcoming in the '04 election.
"Democrats have been less willing to talk about values openly, but I think most people now realize it must be done," Mrs. Marsh said.
 

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Posted by Griffon on :
 
"i didn't know they even HAD Methodists in Arkansas.. i thought they was all Baptists...."

Well I could be wrong on that too, I just think he was Methodist. I know George W Bush is a Methodist who refused a meeting with the Bishops on the eve of the war to meet with a more evangelical side of the fence.
 

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Posted by Griffon on :
 
"BTW? i think giving tax dollars to faith based initiatives is WRONG...
it is unconstitutional
AND?
it will lead to corruption within faith based organisations...granting is a nasty competitive game...

lastly?

Faith based initiatives are supposed to be voluntary from the heart...the best way to take God out of it? is to get tax dollars in...."

Agreed on all counts
 

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Posted by glassman on :
 
awe comeon guys...

there has been a concerted effort to demonise the "liberal left" and paint all dems with that brush...

check outPRESIDENT CLINTON'S MEMORANDUM
ON RELIGION IN SCHOOLS
Following is the text of President Clinton's memorandum dated July 12, 1995 to Attorney General Janet Reno and Secretary of Education Richard W. Riley about religious expression in public schools:
a few choice excerpts...

now that i'm DD'ing him... sheesh

4. As our courts have reaffirmed, however, nothing in the First Amendment converts our public schools into religion-free zones, or requires all religious expression to be left behind at the schoolhouse door. While the government may not use schools to coerce the conscience of our students or to convey official endorsement of religion, the government's schools also may not discriminate against private religious expression during the school day.

i'm wondering if rove really is this powerful...it must be rush limbugh too....

6. Student prayer and religious discussion: The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment does not prohibit purely private religious speech by students. Students therefore have the same right to engage in individual or group prayer and religious discussion during the school day as they do to engage in other comparable activity. For example, students may read their Bibles or other scripture say grace before meals, and pray before tests to the same extent they may engage in comparable nondisruptive activities. Local school authorities possess substantial discretion to Impose rules of order and other pedagogical restrictions on student activities, but they may not discriminate against religious activity or speech.

more here:

http://www.cofc.edu/~whitel/ClintonSchoolReligion.htm


don't be too shocked JW...
the moral majority is neither after all...


the right wing freaks have been repeating the lies over and over and over so much that some people just believe 'em now....
 

---

Posted by john wayne on :
 
Glassman-
Sounds like a recent transformation to me

At least two years ago Democrats started to worry that they were painting themselves into a small corner of a mostly religious America as the secularist party. Democrats started holding workshops on how they could win the support of religious voters. However, they couldn't quite master their lessons or demonstrate their sincerity in time for the 2004 elections.

The outgoing Democratic leader Terry McAuliffe declared that one of his outstanding accomplishments was the establishment of a Center of Faith at the DNC. However, the current confidential staff directory of the DNC doesn't list the name, director, or phone number of the Center. A DNC staffer says that a consultant who works out of her home handles the Center's work.

As governor of Vermont, Dean promoted homosexual civil unions. His presidential campaign stumbled over clumsy attempts to display biblical literacy and religious values. At one point the governor was quoted as declaring that the Book of Job is his favorite New Testament book.

The eventual Democratic nominee for President, John Kerry, professed himself uneasy about talking of his Catholic faith, and his pro-abortion-rights views generated a lot of criticism from his church leaders.

Dean's response
Early analyses of exit polls of the 2004 presidential election indicated that the largest block of voters that made a difference in the election were the "moral values voters." Although some later analyses have disputed that claim, Democratic consultants who briefed the DNC groups just before each appearance by Dean said they accepted the conclusion that the election was decided by perceptions of voters that the Democrats were indifferent, at best, to religion and moral values. Pollster Celinda Lake told the women Democratic leaders that "the most powerful predictor of the 2004 vote was religion. The religious 'others' and the nonreligious voted for us. The worst voters were against us." Catching her misstatement, Lake said she meant that the voters among whom the Democrats had the worst support were the evangelicals and Catholics.

Immediately after Lake's presentation, Dean launched a volley of well-prepared pro-religion, pro-moral-values remarks. This time there were no biblical misquotes.

Dean told the women not to say that the Democrats are pro-abortion. "We are not pro-abortion!" was his lead off sentence. "There is not anyone I know who is pro-abortion." The former governor attacked the Bush administration for there being more abortions per capita than there were under President Bill Clinton. Dean embraced Clinton's goal to make abortion rare while allowing women the right to choose. The incoming leader of the Democrats also recalled how an evangelical supporter from Texas had told him that her compassion encompassed more issues than just abortion.

Dean asked the Democratic women to figure out how to reach women who feel alienated from the Democratic Party. Pollster Lake pointed out that in the presidential election the Democrats suffered a big drop in the women's vote. Noting that her party lagged 15 percentage points behind the GOP among married women and 10 to 11 points among white women, Lake said that unless these gaps are closed that the Democrats can't win.

Dean seemed to be trying to leave the impression that the Democratic women need to reach out to pro-life women. "There are a lot of women's groups," Dean observed. "We need to figure out how they can all get together."

Dean mocked the Republicans as family values hypocrites. "The GOP wants to cut the money for feeding kids. They only get two of the values of the New Testament. Do they talk about having walked among the least of these?"

Comparing the Republicans to Sadducees and Pharisees, Dean said, "I haven't heard the Republicans talk about that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man through the gates of heaven."

A problem of finding the right language?
Dean said that Democrats have failed to use language that common Americans could relate to. "We need to get away from slogans and ideology," he said. "We learned in the last election that language makes an enormous difference."

Dean declared that though the Democrats have tried to follow maybe 25 of the 27 main values of the New Testament, they have been poor at communicating this story. Invoking God, Dean declared, "Lord, family values—how could we possibly lose! We are the party of family values!"

Will the Democrats walk the talk?
Dean told the African American caucus that people can judge his commitment to a more diverse party by the appointments to his transition team. "You will see we will walk the talk." Dean then launched into a story of how an evangelical couple came to support him. He asked the wife, "How can you support me, one who has a strong conviction on gay marriage and a woman's right to choose [an abortion]?" The lady said first, their daughter has a kidney disease that isn't covered by health insurance. Second, she respected Dean's deep and honestly expressed convictions about many issues of compassion other than the abortion issue. "'Evangelical Christians are people of deep convictions,'" Dean quoted the woman. "'When something happens, I want to know that someone with deep conviction will stand up and do what they think is right.'"

However, after this stirring anthem to openness to evangelicals, Dean was still not ready to say that he would name an evangelical to his transition team. He told CT that his planning hadn't "got that far yet."

Dean did not address the controversy of the fierce personal attacks against pro-life Democrat Tim Roemer while he was still in the running against Dean. One night earlier, outgoing Democratic chairman Terry McAuliffe called the attacks on Roemer "way over the top." Many pro-life Democrats who don't feel welcomed in the party, likely feel that Dean's supporters savaging of Roemer is a sign that the party hasn't changed.

Maybe it is because so few evangelicals were in evidence at the Democratic National Committee meeting. Few rank-and-file Democratic leaders had yet to catch a hold of Dean's new way of talking. The director of the Kerry campaign in West Virginia said, "We haven't really dealt with that yet." Leaders of the women's caucus couldn't name a single pro-life member of the caucus. Several state chairman polled by CT either declined to answer or professed that they didn't know of any evangelicals in their delegations.

In fact there were a few evangelicals sprinkled here and there—a deacon from Alabama, a minister from Maryland, or a faith-based community service leader in a few states. But most Democrats preferred to duck the issue. Jim Fraser of the Oklahoma delegation declared that he was "pro-choice, pro-life" and that he didn't ask people what their religion was. "I am not being very cooperative with you, am I," he chuckled as he walked away. A delegate from Texas professed, "I have a strong background in my faith—but that isn't necessarily to be quoted." She said she didn't know of any pro-life Texas delegate. "That's who we are as Democrats."

A few delegates that CT interviewed articulated a Christian approach to politics. Charles Saechting, chairman of the Texas Democrats, regaled his audience with declarations that the Republicans "are probably the least Christian party that has ever been." He talked of his own upbringing by an African American who became a pastor, but also unconvincingly argued that "pro-life falls within the pro-choice belief."

The Rev. Zina Pierre, who forthrightly states her evangelical conviction, walked the Democrats out with her benediction that her party coworkers "be not dismayed at their faces, the Republicans; they shall fight against thee … but I am with thee." However, after the chairs started to be stacked up and the clean-up crews swarmed in, the minister from First Baptist Church in Annapolis, Maryland, reflected on how the Democrats seemed to place evangelicals at the end of their attention. "The party needs to put reaching evangelicals at the onset of a campaign, not at the end two weeks before election." She also found it hard to name any evangelical allies who would know she was quoting from Jeremiah 1:17-18. While Pierre's role was relegated to a time when most Democrats were exhausted and streaming out of the auditorium, the emotional high point of the convention occurred with Dean's embrace of Democratic lesbians.

In the gathering of Hispanic Democratic leaders, Gloria Nieto, vice chair of the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender Caucus, broke down in sobs as she lamented her feeling of rejection as a woman who had illegally married a woman in Boston. Responding to her wondering if the Democratic Party would still be a welcoming home for lesbians, Dean leaped off the stage into the audience to hug her. With a sob of his own catching his voice, he brought the audience to a standing ovation with his declaration, "That's why I am a Democrat." Many evangelicals may well respond, "That's why we are not Democrats."

Kerry was uneasy about even discussing his faith in 2004.
Dean says the democrats are poor at talking about family values
Democrats had low support among evangilicals and catholics

Hope your right Glassman. i would love to see the family values issue in the '08 election, with both sides weighing in.
 

---

Posted by john wayne on :
 
I think it was that Hillary was raised in a methodist family.
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
Kerry was uneasy about even discussing his faith in 2004.
Dean says the democrats are poor at talking about family values
Democrats had low support among evangilicals and catholics


yeah, cuz rove made being gay a voting issue...

and Cheney's daughter can't marry her girlfriend now...what a bummer huh?

don't forget abortion...
that ain't going away even if it is outlawed...

Falwell and Robertson are MONEY MONEY MONEY.... they bring in votes by getting TV Bush pandered to them....


Glassman-
Sounds like a recent transformation to me

did you read the date? it was '95, read letter to Janet Reno?.... sheesh...

you guys are way slow on the uptake sometimes...
 

---

Posted by john wayne on :
 
Democratic leaders have the perception they are poor on talking about family values. How could the voting public see it any differently, Rove or no Rove? The family values issue really heated up in 1988 or 1992. Long before Rove came along. Remember Murphy Brown or some show like that. democrats have made little effort to pick the minds of christians, it is an alienation of part of their constituants.

Agreed about abortion.

Out for the night.
 

---

Posted by john wayne on :
 
"did you read the date? it was '95, read letter to Janet Reno?.... sheesh..."


????????????????????
The article I am referring to when I said "sounds like a recent transformation" was written in 2005. The one that starts "At least two years ago......"
Sorry for confusion.
 

---

Posted by wallymac on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by john wayne:
Second ammendmant supporter? Allright I like my second ammendment too.
Now as far as Rove goes, yes you are right, I did not know that Rove used his political muscle to show Hillary moving to the center by way of this article. Hardly proves me to be full of crap.
Man you guys are placing alot of people under Roves thumb.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Griffon:
What a great day! Religious right and religious left challenging each other over issues that affect us daily. And they will be a non-candidate forum on those issues as candidates seek to get their attentions. This is a great moment for this seriously divided nation. It will give Democrats a chance to resonate with voters on social issues again. The renewed march of Civil Rights. It will force Republicans to recognize the number of disaffected religious voters their empty rhetoric has created.

---

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah...
 

---

Posted by Johnwayne on :
 
Rove wins again.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Won't it be great when the political dialog is issues based again. I can just fe-e-e-el the love. The nature of the article wasn't about which officials within the Democratic party make the effort to show their alliance with religion. The point was that a grass-roots, pastor and laity, movement is happening that is to the liberal side of the socio-economo-political spectrum! This is great! The people who were quiet little sheep are waking up and stretching their voice! We can speak the language that will challenge the religious right in their own terms. This is a great day when we leave our caves to the light of a new dawn. Amd what will be the agenda?

Civil Rights and all that entails will be back on the table. Human rights foreign policy! Amen to that!
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"blah blah blah blah blah blah blah..."

You and bdgee should get together, his went something like "yada, yada, yada..." Ah well, live...love...eat...and pray
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
Oh, Griffon, I wish to take care and not steal credit for his "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah..." as it preceded my "yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada - - - ".

I had seen his "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah..." when i posted and wanted to make sure I didn't plagerize his quite appropriate expression.

I absolutely despise and hate plagerism.

Imitation may be wonderful praise, but plagerism is a sin.
 

---

Posted by Leo on :
 
yada yada yada...eh, bdgee!
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
snicker, up!
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
And still just as wrong Leo.
 

---

Posted by Leo on :
 
Griffon, no offense, last night I had something brilliant to say, but the beers in my liver made the message indecipherable, hence; Blah blah blah, etc...
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Good reason Leo.
 

---

Posted by Leo on :
 
yep I like to drink a bottle of cheap red vino and read the beatitudes once or twice over, thice over for good measure, tis good for the soul, not to mention the ego. -peace
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
and peace to you. Wine is good for the heart.
 

---

Posted by Leo on :
 
well said Griffon- cheers!
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Grassroots politics at its best:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29653-2004Jun9.html

Restored balance in the religious voice of this nation will only make the US stronger.
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
The surest way to making the U.S. stronger is to outlaw education courses in colleges.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"The surest way to making the U.S. stronger is to outlaw education courses in colleges."

Well, bdgee this is another issue we must disagree upon. I think we need education classes in colleges. It will be so good though when the rligious left helps in deciding what that education will look like.
 

---

Posted by Johnwayne on :
 
Outlaw education?
Now why in the hell would a teacher want to outlaw education?

You been sucking back on grandmas cough
medicine Bdgee?
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
I mean exactly what I said.

Once again you are confusing what you know and what you think you know.

A particularly irrating habit of yours, by the way.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"A particularly irrating habit of yours, by the way."

Which one bdgee? I have many irritating habits. I'm just too modest to list all of them. Perfectly at peace, knowing in my weakness, Christ makes me strong as grace shines through.
 

---

Posted by Johnwayne on :
 
Actually Bdgee I agree with you on this one. It is becoming an expensive waste of time. And if the liberal indoctrination was eliminated at the high school they could spend time teaching stuff they are learning in college.
 

---

Posted by Leo on :
 
Too bad they haven't come up with a curriculum in higher education that teaches, effectively, common sense..ahhh well, live and learn.
 

---

Posted by Relentless. on :
 
Common sense should be taught by the parents.
 

---

Posted by Leo on :
 
"You been sucking back on grandmas cough
medicine Bdgee?"

LOL LOL LOL ... hey wait, where can I get some o' dat granny's syrup bdgee?

we're building an army
 

---

Posted by Leo on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Relentless.:
Common sense should be taught by the parents.

---

as well as so many other good and necessary subjects
 

---

Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
"As people do better, they start voting like Republicans - unless they have too much education and vote Democratic, which proves there can be too much of a good thing." -Karl Rove
 

---

Posted by Leo on :
 
is he talking about education or democrats??
 

---

Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
I'm assuming he means education. LOL
 

---

Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
He's saying that Republicans generally aren't as educated as Democrats, (which I can't disagree with).
 

---

Posted by Relentless. on :
 
How can anyone even think of voting in these days and times if they are truly educated?
As my education continues I find myself wishing more and more for our own 11/5.
There is no point..
They are all the same.
They all want us in the same cage.
Sure they bicker about the color of the cage.
All smoke and mirrors
 

---

Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
Voting electronically is a total waste of time, unless you don't mind voting for the candidate of their choice.
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
I don't "KNOW" that it is a waste of time, but I have every good reason to suspect it is and that's more than good reason enough to want it stopped.
 

---

Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
Yep. Glassman has the best idea. Vote with a Sharpie on a card. Of course, that would probably mean no more future Bush family "wins."

LOL
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"He's saying that Republicans generally aren't as educated as Democrats, (which I can't disagree with)."

Example of Democratic tolerance and fair-mindness.
 

---

Posted by Relentless. on :
 
At this point, anyone who chooses either one of the political parties is ignorant.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Religious left dialoging with the religious right on political issues is the salvation of this nation. Conversations, on war, homosexuality, prayer in school, evolution and creation, poverty, human rights, faith based initiatives and abortion can be the topics of the day and it won't be one-sided anymore.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
And the poor will have a voice again because we on the religious left spend alot of time and money working to give the poor things like cars, air conditioners, food, medicine, glasses, jobs, homes (habitat for humanity is an organization that brings religious right and left together) and much more. Religion is the grass-roots voice that will join with other voices:

http://pewforum.org/religion-politics/

Here's the truth behind the myth, people feel that religion should have a voice in the public square. This article offers access to several other articles which give a broad perspective of public religious life.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
The Christian connection to the poor, an underlying reason to support the religious left:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8420/liberation.html

this one shows how we can disagree as Christians and still work for a common goal, to feed the hungry, clothe the naked and visit the sick and imprisoned.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Religion was always in the public square throughout our nation's history:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/20050430-103302-5112r.htm
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
So was slavery. So does that make it desirable
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"So was slavery. So does that make it desirable"

Thanks for reminding me bdgee, slavery ended because religious people got uppity. Good hard working Christians. Now to be sure good but mis-guided Christians were on the other side, manipulated by the sin of economic prosperity and the need for power, but in the end it was true spiritual people who led the charge for Abolition and then went on to Women's Right to Vote and Civil Rights, another effort to end another type of slavery. Thanks for crossing over bdgee
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
Whoever told you that, quite simply, had a gullible audience.

There were many many non-religious people that participated in ending slavery in the U.S.

There remain millions of "good God-fearing Christians" that would happily return black people to servitude. Without them, Bush wouldn't be in office.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"There were many many non-religious people that participated in ending slavery in the U.S."

About 4%, which given that millions participated in the Civil War, could be many. But the people who ended slavery were predominantly Christians and Jews, religious, flawed human beings all, but 96% expressing a belief in a personal God. Simply fact of the times.

"There remain millions of "good God-fearing Christians" that would happily return black people to servitude. Without them, Bush wouldn't be in office."

What a profound lie from an educator no less.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Now let's turn to Women's Rights and the Civil Rights movement. Who were the movers and shakers? Christians and Jews, every one of them.

I see why you don't like to draw from history bdgee, it's not your subject. From the beginnings of this country forward to the present day, religion has been a force for good, and the minority for ill, but faith propelled this country to new heights of education, business and inovation.
 

---

Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
Real Christians (i.e. followers of Christ) are generally wonderful, humble, peace-seeking people (They are also very few and far between).

Political "Christians" are nothing more than a cancer on America.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Griffon:
The Christian connection to the poor, an underlying reason to support the religious left:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8420/liberation.html

this one shows how we can disagree as Christians and still work for a common goal, to feed the hungry, clothe the naked and visit the sick and imprisoned.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Johnwayne:
Going to church does not make you Christian.
Not going to church does not mean you are not a Christian.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Griffon:
"I know many who consider themselves christians who have never and don't plan on ever setting foot in a church."

They are making a mistake, but under God's grace there is time to change their minds.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by glassman:
scripture is easy...

we could fill the internet with cut-n-paste innuendo and contradiction....

---

 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"everything is connected..."

exactly right, you get the point of perichoretic co-activity. We are connected, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 12. You are beginning to see my point evolution as an aspect of God's creation; Superstring theory is cosmic-ally true. We are connected that ontological description of personhood.

And see, that is why the "Dark Bible" can't ever get at the truth. It presupposes the revelation of God as static, fixed in time. It also presupposes God is not interactionist and moving us to understanding. This has been a funny toy of those who suffer from religio-phobia. What it actually reveals is the lack of Biblical understanding people have.
 

---

Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
LOL

quote:

---

Originally posted by Griffon:
"everything is connected..."

exactly right, you get the point of perichoretic co-activity. We are connected, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 12. You are beginning to see my point evolution as an aspect of God's creation; Superstring theory is cosmic-ally true. We are connected that ontological description of personhood.

And see, that is why the "Dark Bible" can't ever get at the truth. It presupposes the revelation of God as static, fixed in time. It also presupposes God is not interactionist and moving us to understanding. This has been a funny toy of those who suffer from religio-phobia. What it actually reveals is the lack of Biblical understanding people have.

---

 

---

Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
Lean Not Unto Thy Own Understanding..
 

---

Posted by Johnwayne on :
 
Boy did you guys pick the wrong fight here.
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
exactly right, you get the point of perichoretic co-activity. We are connected, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 12. You are beginning to see my point evolution as an aspect of God's creation; Superstring theory is cosmic-ally true. We are connected that ontological description of personhood.

when i said everything? i meant EVERYTHING.......
not just people....
 

---

Posted by jordanreed on :
 
perichoretic co-activity


I'm lost...ok,how many people know what that means,out of context?
 

---

Posted by jordanreed on :
 
No results found for "perichor..."


We didn't find a match on "perichoretic," but we found the following alternate spellings for you. Click one to continue your search.

periphrastic

perichoretic".
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
it is a trinity thing.... the mystery of how Christ can be his own father.....
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
"Wherever two or more are gathered in my name I am with you."

What you can't seem to comprehend (well, one of them) is that we didn't gather here "in my name".

THIS IS NOT A PLACE FOR PREACHING.
 

---

Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
This is a big problem with the Christo-fascists.
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
the thing is? there are much older symbols communicating the same idea and even more...



this ALSO represents Trinity...
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
the way the preists managed to make it male to male is wierd tho...... bizzarre even...
 

---

Posted by Leo on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Johnwayne:
Boy did you guys pick the wrong fight here.

---

Cheerleader
 

---

Posted by Leo on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gordon Bennett:
This is a big problem with the Christo-fascists.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leo:
Is the word Christo-fascists a new creation of yours G? lol

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bdgee:
"Cheerleader"????

Is that meant to be a comparison to dubya? Dubya's greatest achievement, ya know. Man, JW will like that. Anything dubya-esque is a perfect for his ego.

Or were you meaning to point to the tendency of that pair to out number anyone thay can't handle intellectually?

---

A little from column A, a little from column B,lol.
 

---

Posted by Leo on :
 
good one GB!
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"THIS IS NOT A PLACE FOR PREACHING."

Off topic, open forum and free speech (first amendment). Bdgee, I should think you as a teacher should work to contextualize. You presume preaching where there is mere conversation. Tell me then, was Glass preaching when he quoted the sacred text?

What it's not a place for is racist, ethnic slurs like you posted in the Clinton's Vietnam service thread as I mentioned above.

It's okay guys, with every post you demonstrate what I have argued all along. You don't like religion, but God's prevenient grace calls to you, reveals that there is truth in Christianity, in the person of Jesus Christ and through the presence of the Holy Spirit. That prevenient grace convicts you and because of that conviction, you are drawn like a moth to the flame. You cannot just stay away from a Christian you disagree with, you have to denounce the religion. Why? Because if it is true then you have a decision to make.
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
Gordon,

Did you formally and properly submit a request to do that with Griffon?
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
denouncing religion is not the same as denouncing faith....

sorry, i know it's your paycheck and all that, but....
 

---

Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
Glassman, that's right. It seems so simple.

denouncing religion is not the same as denouncing faith... denouncing Bush is not the same as denouncing America, etc., etc., etc.


Bdgee, the paperwork has been filed and I expect the appropriate long-winded response to be forthcoming.


 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
What you NEED to be noticing is that we aren't terribly impressed with your claim to superiority and your claim to honesty can only be awarded a grade of "D" (for effort, not content) if you actually are so screwed up in the head that you believe that line you put out.

All you really have is personal bias. You don't know much about religion, in general, and your depth in Methodism is questionable (assuming once again you are telling us what you actually believe).
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Now you're just baiting because the argument is unassailable. Let me ask you: why did you use a racial epithet?
 

---

Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
Bdgee, don't let the Christofascists get you down.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Griffon:
Now you're just baiting because the argument is unassailable. Let me ask you: why did you use a racial epithet?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gordon Bennett:
Bdgee, don't let the Christofascists get you down.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Griffon:
Now you're just baiting because the argument is unassailable. Let me ask you: why did you use a racial epithet?

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Johnwayne:
saying W*etb*ack = what Bdgee?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Griffon:
i think that come under the category of spamming...

please explain

---

well, it's just a long, long cut-n-post... and it's not your work or is it? i see it's dated..
we asa grioup here really prefer that you try to make it your own..
i know, i know, i've posted you a lot of cut-n-paste, but it was going to a specific point of providing proof,or something close to proof anyway..
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
You know Jordan, the funny thing is that your fascination with religion, your fear of it, tells me, God's prevenient grace is at work on you. You will be saved one day. Not by me but by God who is our Savior. Keep searching. In the meantime, come back when you mature a little. That edge in you causing you to retreat into your mantra is convicting grace. Embrace it, repent and find out what freedom is really like.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"well, it's just a long, long cut-n-post... and it's not your work or is it? i see it's dated..
we asa grioup here really prefer that you try to make it your own..
i know, i know, i've posted you a lot of cut-n-paste, but it was going to a specific point of providing proof,or something close to proof anyway.."

This is my own work from my infancy in preaching.
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
OK that's cool then, you didn't attribute it...

you just chucked it out there...
 

---

Posted by jordanreed on :
 
tell me..griff.. what have you ever read that was writin by Jesus?
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"ever read anything by the Baba of silence??"

Actually yes, I have read, and practice silence and solitude. But more to the point: Enlightenment is found in relationship, not in simple solitude and introspection. You cannot achieve true enlightenment apart from relationship. This is where the Guatama Buddha was wrong. Lao Tsu was closer but still not accepting a personal edge to relationality.

The peace within only comes from Christ. However, if you accept the teachings you espouse, then you lack only that relationality to be free.
 

---

Posted by jordanreed on :
 
what did you read by him?
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Nope. Jesus left no writings but Jordan, the writings of the Gospels are his words. And that is the word of God.
 

---

Posted by jordanreed on :
 
The peace within only comes from Christ


and before jesus? there was no peace within?
 

---

Posted by jordanreed on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Griffon:
Nope. Jesus left no writings but Jordan, the writings of the Gospels are his words. And that is the word of God.

---

utter bs

hearsay, written by drunkards....a fable, story(and not a good one)...fiction
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Jordan, Baba of silence wrote several things a compendium of which is at this site:

http://www.eaisai.com/baba/docs/silence.html

His teachings appeal to a self-indulgent culture that believes they can find spirituality in themselves. It's a lie. Baba actually taught some nice truisms, but everything was copied from other religions. I do not wish to tread on your fith, but the truth is not there fully.

However, every religion has a piece of the truth through God's prevenient grace.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"utter bs hearsay, written by drunkards....a fable, story(and not a good one)...fiction"

Nope, all true, but I was going to say the same thing about your Baba. So we're even.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Keep going Jordan, God's grace can reach out to you where you are.
 

---

Posted by jordanreed on :
 
baba of silence wrote ONE book...

you searched and you found...you never read his book..that is a lie


again,not very christianlike...

you are a fraud
 

---

Posted by jordanreed on :
 
peace to you brother...

you have my blessings...

continue on in your search,if you must...but remember,my son, i am here, for you,in your time of need...
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
No I read that book, child. The compendium is an e-collection of quotes from his writing, is it not?

"again,not very christianlike...you are a fraud"

No I am not, and I suspect having read the prattle you are refering to that Baba wouldn't approve of you calling me a liar either. So your practices seem a little off, discontinuity from where you seek to be. But then Baba took his musings from wherever he could find truth.

Look Jordan, Baba is leading you in a different path than I will follow. Enlightenment for me is not down that road. If it helps you cope, that's great and we can argue about it all you want, but we aren't converting each other. The Gospel is the truth, Baba has part of that truth.
 

---

Posted by jordanreed on :
 
i must go now..i am in need of rest
 

---

Posted by jordanreed on :
 
baba is, and was, also a fraud...i studied with him and found the truth..


he continues to have his following in so. mn.

but i and my brother exposed him for what he was...
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"continue on in your search,if you must...but remember,my son, i am here, for you,in your time of need..."

My friend, blessings on your path. You have nothing I am searching for. We can share the journey but your display of anger at the beginning of our conversation is all I need to see of Baba. You will no doubt reciprocate that sentiment because you really misunderstand me. But again our worldviews take us in different directions.
 

---

Posted by Johnwayne on :
 
This course of action will not work Jordan. The "Let's get the preacher mad and than he'll blow his lid and leave in shame" plan just won't cut it. It's failed when tried in the past' it has failed when attempted here. Did you guys honestly think that this course of action was not telegraphed and anticipated?
Why do you keep backing up than charging forward head first into the same wall?
He isn't going to get mad. And he isn't going to leave here.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"baba is, and was, also a fraud...i studied with him and found the truth.."

thank you for saying what I would not say to a person of faith. I will not destroy a person's faith because in the end I know God's grace will save those who seek, even when they aren't exposed to God's full revelation.

You see what Baba could not be for you, Jesus is for all. Believe or reject, the choice is yours. Rest well tonight
 

---

Posted by jordanreed on :
 

 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Jordan, I am sorry you got taken in by a fraud like Baba, but that is what happens when you follow new age trends. That's not God's fault. That's why you need a faith community to grow in. Those new age religions always fail you because they are self-centered. Christianity is about getting the center of gravity outside of yourself. Only there can you find the truth, within the inner Trinitarian relationship. I did notice you had difficulty with "perichoretic." it is possible I mis-spelled it. Perichoretic coactivity is the human approximate description of the ontology and oikonomia (activity) of the three persons of the Trinity. Three persons held together/grounded in love, and coactive in every activity of grace.

As in the Trinity, our being is defined and shaped in part by the relationships we live. That is why Christianity says we must form communities of nurture and support. Thus the hope for the nation is found in the religious left confronting the religious right in the public square. The concern for the least, lost and lonely is inadequately expressed in the church, but it is the best of all people-populated institutions to deal with the hurting people of the world in love.

I have to say I find it amazing that you try to tell me what I can talk about on a thread I set up for discussion. In an Off-Topic Post, Non Stock Talk, my impression is that we can post and talk about anything we want, post a topic of discussion on any topic except stocks.

Over the last week I post on four topics that I presented. I post on one other topic about Israel because I have connections there. I largely stay to my own threads, as an apolitical voice, because there is a strong sentiment on the other threads and I respect the other posters' opinions enough to leave them alone for the most part, though this has only been in the last week or so.

Do I tell anyone what they can post as a topic? No. Do I tell anyone what they can say in their created threads? No. Do I argue vigorously and defend strongly my convictions within my own posted threads? Absolutely. Is that what I expect from those who disagree? Absolutely. That has been my approach in the last week or so. My point being, if you so dislike what I post, if seeing a sermon posted offends you, there are dozens of other threads to go to where you might be happier. If you come into the threads I have generated, I expect we will both challenge each other and that's fine too.

The purpose here is to have fun, to divert ourselves from stresses and to exchange ideas. That's why I came here and I hope you do as well. If we are getting upset then we are taking this off-topic e-forum too seriously.
 

---

Posted by Johnwayne on :
 
This course of action will not work Jordan. The "Let's get the preacher mad and than he'll blow his lid and leave in shame" plan just won't cut it. It's failed when tried in the past' it has failed when attempted here. Did you guys honestly think that this course of action was not telegraphed and anticipated?
Why do you keep backing up than charging forward head first into the same wall?
He isn't going to get mad. And he isn't going to leave here.
 

---

Posted by jordanreed on :
 
champion of the poor and down-trodden, jw?
 

---

Posted by Johnwayne on :
 
Been called worse.
 

---

Posted by jordanreed on :
 
its a noble cause...glty
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
Gordon, Glass, bdgee and now Jordan. Funny how you all attack the same thing. I wonder why you are so afraid of faith?

now you are back to your lies again

your collar is on roves leash...

we've pointed out to you over and over again that faith isn't religion..

you are learning, but it's just learning new ways to attack...

they have prescriptions that might help you with all that paranoia...
 

---

Posted by Johnwayne on :
 
Really? They make medication that blots out racial slurs, name calling, decapitation videos, vulgar pm's and Bdgee's constant screeching?
Wow must be strong stuff.
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
Glass...,

Both those guys are drunk on Rushlove and Bushworship. No actual narcotic can overcome the brainless bliss they revel in. And that koolaid so refreshes them!
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
it's like the doctor prescribing his favorite meds to his patients isn't it?
 

---

Posted by Johnwayne on :
 
Glassman-
you are still hanging on to your hollow claim that my brother is a Rovite?
Wow and you pride yourself on your research skills?
Bdgee, well his screech will never change, and I've come to accept that. He just has a blanket response to anyone who disagrees with him.
I believe you are smart enough to make a more accurate assesment. Couple pages back he said Bush was wrong to not support going into Ruwanda.
Did Rove make him say that?
 

---

Posted by Johnwayne on :
 
Griffon said-
"Bush lost me over the war, the Democratic leadership giving in to genocide drove me away from them. But really it's been a long time coming. The Dems are not the same party of human rights concerns they were under Kennedy, Johnson and Carter. See Glass, I think a president like Carter could have found a way to get Saddam to step down into exile given the chance. Bush could never do that, would never have wanted to do that. Carter would never have created GITMO."
 

---

Posted by Johnwayne on :
 
Griffon said note the date-
posted July 19, 2006 11:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm certainly no fan of Rove, but someone was a mastermind in that campaign. The guy could sell ice cubes to an eskimo or barbeque a meerkat and win.
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
So, one characteristic of being a Rovite is the willingness to lie.
 

---

Posted by Johnwayne on :
 
"Issues like education, welfare, workfare, health care, ethnic cleansing, free markets, etc. would be a refreshing change. I would add global warming but there may not be much we can do."

More Rovisms?
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
I believe you are smart enough to make a more accurate assesment. Couple pages back he said Bush was wrong to not support going into Ruwanda.
Did Rove make him say that?

am i?

yuor brother and i disagree cuz i am a real republican who is pi$$ed that my party has gone haywire..

does that sound familiar?

i told you before? i voted for the guy that said we have no busines going into other countries and messing with their politics and shoooting their people..

nothing ever comes out the way you expect....

call me a control freak? is it a numbers game?

if i kill one child to save 50? am i good? i still killed..
Thou Shalt Not Kill.... period...

not OK, kill one to save three... none. nada... NOT!

this is old stuff..... it's even in the old testament...
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
On each of those topics, there is little doubt that you would only cut and paste the opinions and deceptions supplied by the RNC and dubya.

Thus far, neither of you has deviated even an iota therefrom.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"now you are back to your lies again"

No lies.

"Thus far, neither of you has deviated even an iota therefrom."

Let me translate for you bro, bdgee has no substance and he is a one trick debater: hate Bush. If you speak about anything else, you are "off topic." Oops isn't that what this board is titled?

And since the topic we are talking about in this thread (nice segue isn;t it?) is the Religious Left as the hope of the country:

http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/okeefe090204.html

More linkage to good, hard-working, honest Liberal Christians like me
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
Gordon, Glass, bdgee and now Jordan. Funny how you all attack the same thing. I wonder why you are so afraid of faith?

now you are back to your lies again

your collar is on roves leash...

we've pointed out to you over and over again that faith isn't religion..

you are learning, but it's just learning new ways to attack...

you changed from religion to faith after i showed you the error of your earlier statemnts...
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"we've pointed out to you over and over again that faith isn't religion.."

You appear to attack both Glass.

"you are learning, but it's just learning new ways to attack..."

Untrue, I never do attack. See, this sounds to me like transference. You assume other people exhibit the same tendencies you manifest. You all attack right? You run people off and boast about that, I think it was Art and Aragorn? So you expect the same kind of behavior in me. You expect me to get mad at the same taunts and such. Well, you rode the Bush debate quote all afternoon yesterday, which was a non-issue to the thread, and then when I commented that Bush is wrong too, it all stopped. I'm inferring that was not anticipated.

But the real fun one was last night. When Jordan went off on how mad I was and the little Baba thing I was remembering the very first thing he said to me:

"Oh you're religious, you have no credibility with me now." Followed up with a comment about my struggle with addiction.

Rather a give away how he was going to approach things. Remember when you said I am at times condescending and patronizing, you saw that side of me last night, when you were expecting me to get angry I was having a ball. You often misunderstand me. My small contribution to this board is to offer balance and fun, reasoned debate. Have I not accomplished that?

"you changed from religion to faith after i showed you the error of your earlier statemnts..."

Nope, religion and faith are inseparable. I made no error, you are reaching now. I often change between those words.

But let's look at yesterday. In order to justify the poor choice of words bdgee made, you defended the use of a de-humanizing racial slur. You defended the actions of a president who obeyed popularity contests rather than doing the right thing, even after he admits it was "the biggest mistake of my presidency." One of you maintains religion should not be in the public square. And then you call me facist or liberal depending on the post. In the midst of which I was painting, eating, writing a song, attending the closing of VBS. I felt no animosity toward you, no need to attack. This is a fun diversion for me.
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
regular davinci huh?

i tend to do what i do well rather than try do everything and do it poorly..which you do...
 

---

Posted by jordanreed on :
 
believe me ,griff..
in purely entertaiment value, you come in second
only to Dweeby...
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by jordanreed:
believe me ,griff..
in purely entertaiment value, you come in second
only to Dweeby...

---

......................lol.................
 

---

Posted by cottonjim on :
 
I think that most people make decisions about religion based solely on faith, as well as their upbringing. People are taught what religion is right from their parents, they have faith in their parents advice so that forms the root of religious beliefs. The entire religious system in my opinion is faith based and essentially defies logic since many of religions claims can not be reinforced with fact.
Having had religion crammed down my throat for the first 16 years of my life I have a natural distain for the stuff, I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in here. Facinating reading by the way. Since I have somewhat of a philosophy background I have seen this topic and simalar topics hashed and rehashed hundreds of times. If you are so inclined look up the philosophies of Friedrich Nietzsche, Soren Kierkegaard, and Heraclitus, there is some interesting reading also.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"If you are so inclined look up the philosophies of Friedrich Nietzsche, Soren Kierkegaard, and Heraclitus, there is some interesting reading also."

Good selection Cotton. I disagree with you about religion, but I know the church has failed many people in the way you mention; it is a free country and I wish you well.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"believe me ,griff..
in purely entertaiment value, you come in second
only to Dweeby..."

I would hope so Jordan. I do aim high and succeed often. Case in point these threads.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Here we come:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4124418.stm

A group of progressive Christians in the US have launched a new political movement to counter what they describe as the power of the religious right.
The Christian Alliance for Progress aims to "reclaim Christianity" and influence the political agenda.

"We can no longer stand by and watch people speak hatred, division, war and greed in the name of our faith," said Patrick Mrotek, the Alliance's founder.

The body joins other liberal religious groups formed around the 2004 election."

Another group joins the political fray
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
See, he's too ignorant to even realize what a slam he has just been awarded and too arrogant and dumb to go find out.
 

---

Posted by Johnwayne on :
 
"I tend to do what I do well "
Still waiting to see proof of that, guess I will take you at your word.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"See, he's too ignorant to even realize what a slam he has just been awarded and too arrogant and dumb to go find out."

Broken record from bdgee. Whining by bdgee. What he's trying to say is: "Griffon caught me on the racist language. Griffon proved Clinton allowed Rwandans and Sudanese people die. It's been a bad week for bdgee. Better show some intolerance for Griffon's ideas."

bdgee doesn't realize that I am on the Religious Left, I repudiate the Religious right, but bdgee can't see past the "religious" label as he defines it.
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
"I am on the Religious Left"

Why do you tell these lies?

Or are you really that simple minded and you believe that bull, so it isn't a lie, just wrong?
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"Or are you really that simple minded and you believe that bull, so it isn't a lie, just wrong? "

Translation: "Bdgee no want religious people in his neighborhood. Bdgee no want religious people in the Democratic Party. Bdgee is religio-phobe who would leave the Democrats if they welcome religious people in."
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
Normal practice by this pair. When you get lost, can't figure out what is being said, or cannot convince someone to kiss your feet, insult and denigrate.

Real high intellectual standards!
 

---

Posted by Johnwayne on :
 
here's the arrogance of Bdgee
If you disagree with Bdgee, you must, you absolutely have to be a right winger. Absolutely no exceptions. If you deny it you have either been Roved or are lieing.
As if every person that did not vote for Bush, or even did not vote at all, agrees lock step with every single thing Bdgee says about politics.

Now that is a pretty ha' falutin' way uv thenkin'.

Well really he says very little, only time he expands beyond screeeching is when Glassman feeds him lines.
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
I repeat,

"Normal practice by this pair. When you get lost, can't figure out what is being said, or cannot convince someone to kiss your feet, insult and denigrate.

Real high intellectual standards!"
 

---

Posted by Johnwayne on :
 
Here is some high intellectual standards coming from you Bdgee
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"

"Those nasty boys are asking me questions again!!!! And look at how they word it!!!!!!
What should I do now Glassman??????"

I offered to tone things down yesterday if you agreed to do the same. You did not respond.
Why is that Bdgee??? We could have both started over with just a little good faith effort on both sides and an agreement that we both get a little carried away once in a while. You did not respond. And I'm the smug one? Can't even admit you may go about things the wrong way, even once in a while? Even when the person you are arguing with offers to admit it?
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"Normal practice by this pair. When you get lost, can't figure out what is being said, or cannot convince someone to kiss your feet, insult and denigrate."

No insults or denigration at all. What you mean to say is this, "Bdgee uses racial and religio-phobic slurs. Bdgee employs a double-standard. Bdgee doesn't like being confronted with ideas that differ from his own so he says things like:"

“I guess they are all illegals and the census guy couldn't find all those wetbacks, huh?”
posted July 23, 2006 19:18 Clinton Vietnam

"Egocentric nut"......posted July 23, 2006 21:41 Clinton Vietnam

See bdgee, those are insults directed from you to 1: an ethnic group, and 2: me.

Here you are confronted with your own hypocricy, suggesting I use insults when in fact Bdgee is the one who is insulting.

It also appears given Bdgee's statement on Latino ethnicity that Bdgee calling me a bigot is hypocritical on your part.

This is a blast guys, hate to step out for a sec, but I'll BRB
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
Ok, I didn't tell the whole truth when I said you are a bigot, so I will correct it.

You are a an ignorant bigot, whose comprehension of the English language is below sophmoric.

Oh, yeah, and you haven't got the manners of a pig or the integrity of screw worm.
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
man bdgee...
i can't think of anything worse than a screworm fly....
i'd show pix, but i can't find any that don't require a barf bag...

here: see the hooks? those are so they can hold on to the flesh while they eat it alive..


 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
yeah, but if you took a picture of one's integrity, it would be like a photo of a vampire....
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Guys you lost the debate so you get personal, I understand, you learned it from politics.

Bdgee, your bait won't work. I know you are fearful so you lash out.
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
It isn't me that lashes out, Griffon.

I am about as worried of you as I am of a slug on the sidewalk.

I haven't seen anything from you that hints of intellectual ability or intellectual integrity and instead of displaying any, you lean on insult, slander, and vile expression.

Sooooooooooooo.....I play youR silly childish game, to make you feel at home.

Then you get mad and start the whole insulting game again.

Why don't you try some responsible discussion, if you are capable. Are you?
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
debate?
were we debating something?
LOL....
whether there is a possible existence of a so-called radical middle...
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
No, Glass, it is whether or not the possibility of declaring all of politics genocide outweighe any and everything any democrat ever said or did, so that the only recourse is to vote for dubya.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Guys, with every post you prove every theory I ever put on here about your behavior. Feel free to keep going.

"debate?
were we debating something?
LOL....
whether there is a possible existence of a so-called radical middle..."

Yes we were, until you lost, debating why a Democratic Administration let 2,000,000 Africans die.

Since you got beat on that one you wanted to change the subject so you came to Religious Left being the hope for this country. Afraid to talk religion, you ran over to the Radical Center where you were embarassed again

"Then you get mad and start the whole insulting game again."

This is transference bdgee, you do this. Case in point calling an ethnic group a derogatory name. See, the getting mad thing, that's all you which leads to the name calling coming out. But you feel good about yourself, thats that self-righteous thing you do so well.

"No, Glass, it is whether or not the possibility of declaring all of politics genocide outweighe any and everything any democrat ever said or did, so that the only recourse is to vote for dubya."

See here's bdgee's justification of genocide.
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
debating why a Democratic Administration let 2,000,000 Africans die.

the topic title says said SUPPORT...
the OTHER topic... not this topic..
you have a word usage problem...
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
He can't read....at least he must have flunked that part of the reading exam that is called "reading comprehension".
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Oh I gotta say, Texas and Wisconsin may have the steak and Iowa may have the corn, but ain't much better than Tennessee Tea to finish a meal right. In terms of our hope, which is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness, the Religious Left is the voice to counter the religious right (please not the change in capitalization is not accidental).

Why, one might ask? Because the Democratic Party has failed to counter them since 1976 and even then the erosion away from the Democrats was evident. And it was wrong because by all the issue, Christians should be socialist in bent with few minor objections. But no one in the Democratic Party was able to articulate that message well enough because there was no evangelical-doxological paricipation in their lives.

The presidency could not and should not be entrusted to a preacher be that preacher: Jessie Jackson, Pat Robertson, Al Sharpton or Jerry Falwell. But to mobilize Christian voters one should be able to articulate a clear message that resonates with Christian voters in the same way candidates seek other voter demographics.
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
The presidency could not and should not be entrusted to a preacher be that preacher: Jessie Jackson, Pat Robertson, Al Sharpton or Jerry Falwell. But to mobilize Christian voters one should be able to articulate a clear message that resonates with Christian voters in the same way candidates seek other voter demographics.

so? get hopping.... first thing you guys need to do if'n you're serious is to get studying how these guys operate and cut'em off att the knees....
Liberty U and Regent's..... they need to be gone over carefully for any signs of political weakness..

next? you have to take rove's tactic and make the media report on them...get the story out..it's there, but very few realise how low this guy hits...

"normal" people are offended by hypocrisy and lying...
don't even need to go to church for that...

Valerie Plame filed a law suit...
fund it.... fund it well...

talk about how many experienced US Govt employees have left because of the bad atmosphere set by the tone of the current adamin...
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
No Democratic voice came up with the support to seriously challenge the religious right. Personally I suspect there were some ethnicity under-currents that hampered those efforts of Revs. Jesse and Al, but even within the Democratic leadership it was more hands off than a helping hand.

Even now, the Democratic Party struggles to express a voice to challenge the religious right. Why? Because they look at them as a political opponent and it is instead a religio-social movement. These people have a vision that is reinforced every time LaHaye puts out another book or movie. A whole industry has grown up teaching the wrong view of Revelation but doing so with alot of special effects. More on that next
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
maybe it's cuz the FAR right is so whacko that there is no answer?

rapture? sheesh
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
The problem is that two distinct visions of the eschaton. In one case, which pervades the religious right, God will Rapture the "good guys" away before destroying the world in judgment, fire and ashes. In the second case God will literally "pitch S/he's tent" among us in transforming this world. This is the more Religious Liberal view, though surely there is cross-pollination of ideas.

Here's the difference:

In the former, the basis in scripture is found in 1 Thessalonians 4 and Revelation 4-20. Now LaHaye and the others base this pessimistic view of the world on the wrong question for 1 Thessalonians. They see Paul answering what will physically happen at the end. That is not the question Paul is answering. He is answering: what happens to our loved ones if they die before the eschaton? The answer? God will bring them to be with God pending the outcome of a cataclysmic event. That leads to predictions of when events in Revelations will happen.

Problem is Revelation, as with all apocalypse isn't written that way. Revelation is written in with events order of magnitude regarding how Rome will fall. No timeline, no prediction of events. The question of Revelation is found in Revelation 6:9-10, in effect, "How long Lord before you avenge our suffering? or How long must we suffer?" And from there God gives a vision of how Rome will eventually fall and the battle will be over before it began (Revelation 19). It should be noted, Rome did indeed fall in the early 4th Century without an arrow being shot or a sword being drawn, but on the basis of the good witness of Christians. Constantine was "converted" (many would argue his conversion was a real one) and Rome with him.

The other perspective in a bit
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
yawn.....imminentization of the eschaton is boring speculation....

how about talking about how you "centrists" plan to deal with the oil companies that are raking it in right now instead...
they are gonna be in charge no matter who you elect...

the Iraqis have been trying to find one excuse or another to have a war... if we had sold off oil rights to private co's? they were going to war... we gave them to the state, so they can have a welfare nation? and they are still gonna have a war...
face it, they just wanna kill something...
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Now contra the religious right and Timothy LaHaye, another vision of the eschaton appears and its best presentation is either in Isaiah 11:1-9 where the child will put his hand in the adder's nest, and lions and lambs will lie down together, they will not hurt or destroy on God's Holy Mountain. This is the final view of Revelation too although the imagery is that of "the New Heaven and the New earth" where earth is recreated or renewed and God dwells with creation again.

The difference is can we work to make the world better or do we have to wait for Christ's return. Another way of putting it is this: Can we redeem creation, environmentally and socially or should we just let things take their course. The Religious Left would argue the former, and so they tend to be interested in justice and social salvation issues. The religious right tends to argue the latter and focuses on personal salvation issues. So from the right you hear: are you saved? or some such question first, where for lefties you hear: how can we serve you?
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Some people will not want to hear this so they will skip over it, but that is the way to neutralize the religious right. Pure teaching would turn the balance. So I encourage you to share this message with your liberal and centrist Christian friends. John Wesley said it well in talking about the need for tension and balance between personal and social salvation: "There is no salvation but social salvation." That message would resonate with Religious righties and Lefties and it would get rid of the conservative voting bloc in the Republican Party.
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
oil money for welfare? social salvation issue?
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
how are you guys planning on fixing the Iraq thing?
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
"There is no salvation but social salvation." That message would resonate with Religious righties and Lefties and it would get rid of the conservative voting bloc in the Republican Party.

that's your magic bullet?
so? where do we start? prohibition again? tear down the casinoes? get rid of the lotteries and the bingo? oh yeah Bingo died becasue of them didn't it?
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"that's your magic bullet?"

to tear down the political hegemony of the religious right, yes.

"so? where do we start? prohibition again? tear down the casinoes? get rid of the lotteries and the bingo? oh yeah Bingo died becasue of them didn't it?"

all of that is less important than helping addicts of gambling and alcahol. This is hard to picture glass, because the religious right has held the arena for so long we are conditioned to think in their terms. Let me draw an example from John Wesley and the early Methodists.

Their first ministry was to coal miners, many of whom were addicted to gin because company shops paid wages part in gin and that was the drink available to them. Wesley did not go after the prohibition of gin, he went after helping miners escape the conditions that played to their addiction. He convinced the owners to pay all the salary in money. He convinced owners to find alternative and non alcaholic drinks for the miners while in the mines. He organized classes and bands to help families that had been abandoned because of the addiction and hazardous working conditions.

His point was it is no good to simply go in and say the right words to be personally, spiritually saved. He said the gospel calls us to love one another in a way that builds the other up.
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
yawn......

history now? how about some real policy?

see? i don't mind killing enemies? i just don't like making a new one every week...

or? every day.... Bush and Rummy have done that really goodly...
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
"No Democratic voice came up with the support to seriously challenge the religious right."

That's absolutely false. Ever hear of Al Shaarpston, just to name one.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Let me look at a major controvercial issue the religious right appropriates: abortion. Please bear with me as I offer two events that surround this issue.

A few years ago there was a conference of 100 "experts" Christian and non-Christian on the issue of abortion, 50 for choice and 50 for no choice. Now there were the usual arguments, but one point came out that they could all agree on: there are too many abortions. 1.2 million every year is too many.

Now in the 2004 election the political genius of Bill Clinton came into play and almost changed the election. After his heart surgery, he campaigned in Arkansas and Missouri. On the issue of abortion, which he stands on the pro-choice side, he did not make that the central issue of his conversation. He said there are too many abortions.

Now that seems like a no-brainer for the religious right but you get beyond that to the left and it may seem surprising. But here's a Religious Left position, not the only one obviously, but one: can we reduce the need for abortions by addressing the systemic conditions that cause many abortions to occur?

It's not about eliminating choice, it's about working with people in systemic nightmares: abusive relationships, addictive situations, abject poverty and other events that cause some people to feel their choice is really no choice at all. It is really about improving social conditions so people can really are free to make a choice unencumbered by their situation.

Also, for some people it's a choice determined by economic factors. Children are expensive. For those who do choose to keep the baby and and those who give him/her up for adoption, the church/mosque/synagogue should be prepared to work for an end to poverty and debt relief in that person's life and in the system that surrounds her. Systemic poverty is a huge cause of abortions, in part because the only recreation some couples have is procreation.

It comes down to this: is the religious right that is so concerned about the unborn child also concerned about that child after he/she is born? Concerned enough to change the conditions of all children in this country into a life of real opportunity, safety, and growth? That's the question of the Religious Left: How do we make that happen? And honestly "No Child Left Behind" sounds good as a slogan, but the program fails.
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
OK? so you are beginning to sound a little like a centrist....
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
What you are neglecting to emphasize is that what the right wing religious extreme is actually saying to those poor and sick women is, you have no choice but to remaimn poor or sick because god made you that way. As proof thereof, they merely point to the conditions the woman is in, as it is clear that had they been one of god's favored, they would not be poor or sick.
 

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Posted by bond006 on :
 
rescue takes place when you have the material basis for it i think we need to work on shelter food ,and colthing . Saftey and security for all children ,education, and activities afert school and in the summer,prison reform and that is by no means prvatizing them,health care and health care public works for the unemployed, A very smart energy policy in the hands of the Government not the energy related companies this is only fair any more since the ecology of the earth is at stake and gas is as much of a necessity as electricity and can't be trusted to the profit motive and is left to the democracy of the vote. Relegion goes back to a persons choice not into the law of the land.

The next time we go to war nobody that is sitting it out at home,the entire nation cannot net from income from any means any more than the lowest paid soldier in the front line all monies over that amount go to the war effort. And most important before we go to war declared or not a special election to be held the only people that could vote in this election are the people that have to fight the war they would make that decision
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
This part I like:

"The next time we go to war nobody that is sitting it out at home,the entire nation cannot net from income from any means any more than the lowest paid soldier in the front line all monies over that amount go to the war effort."

This I do not:

"And most important before we go to war declared or not a special election to be held the only people that could vote in this election are the people that have to fight the war they would make that decision"

Are you saying some guy with only one leg or arm can't have a voice? You are then accepting that circumstances a person has no control over gives him or denies him some right.

Next, we can make that law say that lefties can't vote because everyone (specially baseball players that have to put up with them all the time) knows they are naturally screwy and can be expected to have strange ideas. Hey, and yeah, redheads too!
 

---

Posted by bond006 on :
 
No bdgee just trying to provoke somebody. but I am very serious about the money end of it
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
The crux of the whole issue is that an articulate Democrat, and if you've heard him the best is Obama from Illinois, can find a simpler way to package the message, I set out here, in a way that resonates with centrist and left leaning voters. Hillary Clinton will never cancel out her skeptics and part of the reason is sexism is still a force in this country. Kerry and Gore do not resonate with enough people. Edwards could do it.

The message is simple enough: "Lahaye is good entertainment but the gospel speaks to me a little differently. I learn this from the Bible through my own experience and reflection." Avoid the eschatology talk except when you are addressing a church and then go with it. Leave Robertson and Falwell out, they get too much publicity already. Talk out of Isaiah and Revelations when you create a vision. Imagine how that Isaiah 11 promise and vision of the future would play to poor, war-weary souls.

You have to know your crowd, but a politician could easily create an alternative vision to the religious right one as long as the candidate doesn't get bogged down in the usual "he said this - you said that" kind of arguing. And the vision is already set out in Biblical language that will win voters away from the religious right because it's an image that is already part of their reality.
 

---

Posted by T e x on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by glassman:
yawn......

history now? how about some real policy?

see? i don't mind killing enemies? i just don't like making a new one every week...

or? every day.... Bush and Rummy have done that really goodly...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Relentless.:
Holy crap he types alot.

---

Amen to that!!
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"there for a minute? I was afraid this was assigned reading..."

well, I'm no teacher, though it is part of my professional role, so even when I assign reading it's always voluntary.

In other words it's pretty much like our reality in High School. If you're in the mood to read great. If not the books stay in the locker. Pretty much the same with everything I type.

 

---

Posted by Leo on :
 
I thought this was last weeks hamburger helper sermon??
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
when you have three churches, it is a new sermon every two weeks. Did I post this before? If so sorry.
 

---

Posted by Relentless. on :
 
Who can tell what you post.. all I see is charlie brown's mom blathering away.
 

---

Posted by Leo on :
 
dammit RDQ, you made me spill my beer, lol.
 

---

Posted by Relentless. on :
 

score
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Here you go something new just for you:

As school began a few weeks ago, I began my practice of baking a dessert once a week for seminary. Now in the midst of my hectic life, this may seem to be a waste of time. Several people have expressed that concern. But that dessert is an embodied covenant I made with God when this journey first began. I asked God in prayer for a spiritual discipline I could cultivate while at seminary hoping God would lead me into deeper relationship not only with God, but with those around me as well.

The answer to that prayer led me into the practice of the discipline of service to others. It is not always convenient: this week I missed most of a football game and last week I got up at 4 a.m. to finish a special tart. It sometimes means I go without something I need or want, but the discipline of service also teaches me what a true need is. So much of our life is lived confusing wants and needs.

How I came to this spiritual practice surely only the Holy Spirit can say for sure. For most of us discipline is a hard word. There is a conflict within us, we need discipline, but we want independence. When there is a football game I want to sit and watch, when I am tired I want to sleep, and yet even as I make batters and frostings, there is a part of me that feels most at peace. It is in practicing something that I fully do for the glory of God that I find peace, and this simple act of service to others is that expression I can give fulfilling the covenant with God.

Oh what a joy divine, offering to others the very love that God has blessed me with. I encourage you to try that sometime. Find a way that you can covenant with God to do something: Bible reading, praying, service to others, or something else that God moves in the secret reaches of your heart. You will find the joyous peace that comes fires your imagination, fills you through and through, and sets you on the path that leads you closer to God and to each other.
 

---

Posted by T e x on :
 
"well, I'm no teacher, though it is part of my professional role, so even when I assign reading it's always voluntary."

weeeeeee....

Griff?

if you're "no teacher"? how did you allow that to become "part of" your "professional role" ?


DOH...

If you "assign" it, but it's "voluntary"?

sounds more like a suggestion, eh?
 

---

Posted by Relentless. on :
 
Griffon, you are the least addictive sleeping aid ever.
 

---

Posted by T e x on :
 
"Oh what a joy divine, offering to others the very love that God has blessed me with. I encourage you to try that sometime. Find a way that you can covenant with God to do something: "

lol...

GOT IT!

God? she's a telling a me to keep a big ol' eye on you....


 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
Like I said......
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"she's a telling a me to keep a big ol' eye on you...."

If that's all you have to do Tex, but I'm sure you have more to life than that.

"If you "assign" it, but it's "voluntary"?
sounds more like a suggestion, eh?"

Yep. or at least that's how I took high school.
 

---

Posted by Relentless. on :
 
passive agressive.. without the agressive part..
 

---

Posted by T e x on :
 
griff?

you're not coming off well, here... lol

the thread records what you will not answer...
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
When the topic of the thread is the crux of the posts I answer Tex. The thread also records the fun and unpleasant things thrown my way. It's all good. As I said yesterday, people are free to say what they will, but I will stick to my topic. People are free to post all around what I set out, some new friends are watching, you'll meet them soon.
 

---

Posted by Relentless. on :
 
So you only talk about the thread's topic?
You might want to rethink that strategy, as it will do no good.
I doubt there is one thread on this board that stays on topic for more than a page..
Have fun putting people to sleep.
 

---

Posted by jordanreed on :
 
yawn....g'night
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
The topic GRIFFON wants everyone to stick to is GRIFFON. And it must be admitted, he does it very well.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Still hanging around on my threads huh? If you don't like what you read, why the obsession with my threads? As the light draws moths, there must be light in what I say that you are drawn to. Not to call you moths, but the analogy is accurate. I find the personal references to my person amusing but really, they add nothing to the topic.

Really it all comes down to this: if all we can do is make personal attacks, insults instead of talking issues in politics we have all been Rove'd, Dean-ed, Hillary'd, Rush-ed, Sheehan'd, Hannity'd, Robertson'd, Kennedy'd blame any of those and you are at least partially right. They have convinced us the nasty road, the divide and conqueor mentality, is more important than issue and we always lose that way. We trade insults while people freeze to death in dumpsters or cook to death on park benches.

If the personalized insults are all we can advance and respond to, then we have allowed the leaders of these two parties to divide us. And if we only want to hear that mind-numbing prattle, then our days as a strong nation are past. They are selling us down the river folks. And if all we do is look for shock jock entertainment value on every thread of these boards, then we play right into that hand.

If that is the type of discussion you like and thrive on, that's fine, but I'm not going to play that game. Did I fall into the trap? Sure did! Am I brave enough to dig out of that trap, strong enough to break the jaws of that trap, only time will tell. As with all Christians, I can confess I am a sinner, the worst of sinners, I will fail, stumble, fall down, but the One who is my strength is able to make me stand. That's all I need.

You find that strength anyway you choose, we as a nation are in this together.
 

---

Posted by Relentless. on :
 

 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
These aren't "your" threads, you pompous a$$.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Cute Relentless, after 678 posts in less than three weeks, I do at times feel that way. But it's all in good fun.
 

---

Posted by Relentless. on :
 
Yep 678 posts and after reading seven of them I had twelve neurons commit suicide.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
LOL, but MASH 4077 said it's painless, so you at least have that.
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
Here you go something new just for you:

As school began a few weeks ago, I began my practice of baking a dessert once a week for seminary. Now in the midst of my hectic life, this may seem to be a waste of time. Several people have expressed that concern. But that dessert is an embodied covenant I made with God when this journey first began. I asked God in prayer for a spiritual discipline I could cultivate while at seminary hoping God would lead me into deeper relationship not only with God, but with those around me as well.

The answer to that prayer led me into the practice of the discipline of service to others. It is not always convenient: this week I missed most of a football game and last week I got up at 4 a.m. to finish a special tart.

well, i was reading this and something just clicked...
something about pastry baking, and
the passive aggressive part, and the martyr complex all add up to one thing griffo....

when did you fall in love with your first boy? was it in 2nd grade or even earlier?
it's OK.... i know a church that will welcome you and encourage you to follow your true path... it's the Unitarian Universalists... and? they tend to be intellectual as well.... so they will tolerate your verbosity and aspirations....
 

---

Posted by jordanreed on :
 
is it time for the Dweeeby treatment yet?
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
In the complete inability to take a hint (not just "a" hint, but many many hintS...and not just hint, but HINT), this pest certainly does resemble the dweeb.
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
Glass....,

I agree that the Unitarian Universalists do put up with about anything. But to expect them to accept that much self centered verbosity might be a stretch.

In actuallity, the United Methodist accept about as much. They are a very toleerant bunch. One thing that they generally shun (I won't suggest they accept that self centered verbosity, but that's not a question of religion or the activities of their church, just his manners) is "recriuting"......these are Methodist, after all. But maybe "in person" rather than in the anonimity of the internet, he shows better taste and respects the opinions of others.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
I love a lunch of grilled pineapple and home-made vanilla bean-lavender honey ice cream.

Christocentric Universalist is not connected with the movement and church you describe. It is an understanding of how God will give everyone an opportunity to choose S/he (this is the non-gender specific, unpronouncable name some feminist theologians use for a pronoun to refer to God. It draws comparison to the Hebrew tetragrammation "YHWH."

Christocentric Universalism merely says Christ is the savior of everyone in this specific way: In Christ, God restored free will and choice lost in the Fall. Once again, we can choose totally self-less acts of "chesed" which is inadequately translated as "loving kindness" and "shalom" which again is inadequately translated as "peace." So now, you are free to choose God or not, before Christ you simply would not choose Christ. This is manifest within the Ordo Salutis, Order of Salvation, as prevenient grace. It is on the basis of prevenient grace that God promises to judge humanity on the basis of the grace they have received.

But what does that mean for those 1) who never have the opportunity to be introduced to Christ? and 2) who reject Christ? On the basis of the grace you have received, you will face God. This is true because when God gives grace as embodied in Christ, God gives God's self. So for those who never hear the name of Jesus like the Waodani people who were killing themselves off prior to Christian mission, God judges on the basis of them not knowing killing was wrong.

Now prevenient grace, sometimes called preventing grace, also works in another way, to convict us, make us regret our actions so we will change from destructive patterns of life and community. But what about the second question, about those who use the freedom given to them to reject God's grace? BRB
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee's BaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAK!

And just as verbose and full of it as ever.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
So in Christocentric Universalism what happens to those who, when in this life or beyond, they are called upon to accept or reject the God who created them? They are given a place, a refuge, to prevent them from having to be in God's presence. As it was said in the 17th Century by a converted believer of atheism on his death-bed, "Is there a God? Hell would be a refuge if it saved me from your frown."

For those who reject God, God's love has created a place for them where God's holiness will not be a pain to them. No one is the arbiter of another save Christ who said, "No one comes to the Father except through me." Now the religious right uses this and combines it with our independent streak to say, "You have to make a decision, a bold statement of faith, to be saved." The religious center and the Religious Left say, "Christ has done the work, Christ chose you." Christocentric Universalism is a statement about the freedom God gave us in Christ, not about denominational ideologies.

Our freedom proceeds from God is embodied in Jesus and communicated to us through the Holy Spirit. Political freedom has cost us much, true, full freedom cost us much, we should not give them away so cheaply to politicians' whims. The way the two political sides play this out is that the righties say "help those who are saved" or "help them as a bribe to get them saved." The Lefties and Centrists say, "Help them because they are sacred."

The tragedy is one side of the political aisle has a gift sitting on their doorstep, elections in '06 and '08, but they refuse to pick it up because the gift comes via the Religious Left and Center.
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
There is no "Religious Left and Center" except as it lives in your weird imagination.

In case you have failed to do your homework, every part of the "churches'" membership in the U.S., that isn't of the far rightwing extreme, has been declining for 35 years.

That isn't the fault of the democratic party, as you want to lay the blame (as it's described in RNC "talking points"), but due to the eagerness of the leadership of the "churches" to constantly preach against civil liberty and play politics.

Get off the attack mode BS that is nothing but a disguised diatribe from the RNC.

It's old, fella....and worse than just dishonest.....IT'S BORING!
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
every part of the "churches'" membership in the U.S., that isn't of the far rightwing extreme, has been declining for 35 years.

that has a lot to do with whether you live in a rural or urban area....
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Now let's get to the support for what I am saying:

Cornel West, hardly an advocate for the church, wrote an excellent book in 2004 called, Democracy Matters, in which he tasks both parties for their un-Democratic behavior. In his discussion of the nihilism in the religious right and in the Democratic Party (pp. 30-36), West describes Bush and the Republican elite as "evangelical nihilists, drunk with power and driven by grand delusions of American domination of the world." I think this is a fairly good representation of the Bush administration's application of power.

Equally incisive and scathing though, is West's estimation of the Democratic Party, "The elites in the Democratic Party...are paternalistic nihilists who have become ineffectual by having bought into the corruptions of the power-hungry system."

Now Cornel West is a great writer, scholar, speaker and challenging interviewee, but one thing West is not, he could never be called a conservative. His chapter on nihilism in America is absolutely brilliant and should be a wake up call to all people who follow politics: Democracy Matters
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
Not according to the data I have seen, though it does seem to be more pronounced in "red" areas.
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by bdgee:
Not accordig to the data I have seen, though it does seem to be more pronounced in "red" areas.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Relentless.:
brevity is the soul of wit.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Griffon:
But wit is not the soul

---

whatever preacher boy..
You are boring people to death..
Try making a point...
Try making that point with less than a hundred words..
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
"...if bored Bdgee, feel free to go to another thread."

In yet another way, you intrude on reason.

You are intentionally ignoring the fact that you are not in charge and have no place telling people what they should do.....so much so, that you feign ignorance of the actual question:

If you don't like how folks here don't like the way you treat them and their concerns, then you are free to........

Now don't get me wrong. I do not say that to afford you another point of contention to go off on for ever and ever, assailing me with aspersions, as is your wont.

So, hoping to assure you I speak without ill feeling, I'll admit that I really don't mean to suggest that you act that way with ill intent or in any planned or construed scheme on your part. I have come to believe you really are dumb and ignorant enough to not know better.

You see, I haven't forgotten that you admitted you came here, specifically, to cause problems.

We don't feel any need of your approval and even less need for the trouble you came here to cause.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"You see, I haven't forgotten that you admitted you came here, specifically, to cause problems."

So you now reveal you never really understood my intent, but the hints are scattered in 691 posts. Just a suggestion, don't want to give you the impression I'm telling you what to do but, keep searching, put down the insulting gig, it just amuses me.

"whatever preacher boy..You are boring people to death.."

Yet you choose to enter in. So much for boredom.
 

---

Posted by Relentless. on :
 
Enter in?
Been here for quite a while..
It's you intruding.
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
ignoring questions is his main gig bdgee...


grifoon? you still haven't addressed my direct question about why the Islamic clerics chose to take Jerusalem for themselves...

it was an admitted fairy tale...
yet they KILL people over it...
you have this dream...

like Ghandi and King....

admirable... but get real or you'll end up...well like they did.....
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"grifoon? you still haven't addressed my direct question about why the Islamic clerics chose to take Jerusalem for themselves..."

Sorry Glass, I must have missed that one. Was that in this thread or the Jerusalem one? That was not a dodge, just an over-sight because of all the fam mail.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Would you direct me to where it was and I will answer there?
 

---

Posted by glassman on :
 
it's in the US french thread... page 4...

i gave a short presentation on page three about Laylat-ul Mi'raj so people would get an idea about what kind of 1000+ long year war we have been and are up against
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
Relentless,

You are right, "It's (Griffon) intruding."


Glass....,

He's feigning again.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
No such thing as intrusion into an open board. Country club yes, social club, yes, rotarian club, yes, service association,yes, nobiliary institution, yes, but open forum means I did not and cannot intrude. I do understand the stress it put on the system though. The invitation is in the opportunity to enter. Close the door if you don't want strangers coming to dinner. Speaking of which skewers on the barbeque are great.

Problem ain't that I'm here, it's that we don't agree.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
as close as we are folks, it would be a shame to let this thread stop short of 400 posts, so let's give it the good college try.
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
Nut
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
"Nut"

That's right you never did answer that question: am I a walnut or a pecan? Either one's good with me.
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
Just a nut.....a crank, ya know.

No, I take that back, if you were capable of knowing, you wouldn't be such an ass.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Oh bdgee, that's the comments I love. You have a great night!
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
Awwwwww...

I've done gone and hurt his widdle feelings......
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Can't hurt 'em bdgee, I'm still just enjoying the moment.
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
Poooooooor Griffon
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
That's rich bdgee It's all good. told you you could get out of the threads I started anytime. If you had it would have proved my brother right. On second thought that wasn't a fair reward for you was it?
 

---

Posted by bdgee on :
 
Your brother, like you is right.....far right!

The two of you added together don't mnake a whole wit.
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:
a time to be born, and a time to die;
a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;
a time to kill, and a time to heal;
a time to break down, and a time to build up;
a time to weep, and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
a time to throw away stones, and a time to gather stones together;
a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
a time to seek, and a time to lose;
a time to keep, and a time to throw away;
a time to tear, and a time to sew;
a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
a time to love, and a time to hate;
a time for war, and a time for peace.

Oh what a time for laughing
 

---

Posted by T e x on :
 
The Byrds!

Roger McGuinn was a PROPHET....
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Yep he was! It is a quote from Ecclesiastes 3. The Byrds were a great band! Lot of great bands from that time. But you're right McGuinn was something! What era music you listen to Tex?
 

---

Posted by Griffon on :
 
Nicole C Mullen wrote this and it's a good song about our hope. I know every one doesn't agree but it's a good song

I'm so very ordinary
Nothing special on my own
I have never walked on water
I have never calmed a storm
Sometimes I'm hiding away from the madness around me
Like a child who's afraid of the dark

But when I call on Jesus
All things are possible
I can mount on wings like eagles and soar
When I call on Jesus
Mountains are gonna fall
'Cause He'll move heaven and earth to come rescue me when I call

Weary brother
Broken daughter
Widowed, widowed lover
You're not alone
If you're tired and scared of the madness around you
If you can't find the strength to carry on

repeat chorus

Call Him in the mornin'
In the afternoon time
Late in the evenin'
He'll be there
When your heart is broken
And you feel discouraged
You can just remember that He said
He'll be there
 

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Posted by CashCowMoo on :
 
http://www.globalwitness.org/what_pays_for_war/what_pays_for_war_wmp.php
 

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