posted
The crux of the whole issue is that an articulate Democrat, and if you've heard him the best is Obama from Illinois, can find a simpler way to package the message, I set out here, in a way that resonates with centrist and left leaning voters. Hillary Clinton will never cancel out her skeptics and part of the reason is sexism is still a force in this country. Kerry and Gore do not resonate with enough people. Edwards could do it.
The message is simple enough: "Lahaye is good entertainment but the gospel speaks to me a little differently. I learn this from the Bible through my own experience and reflection." Avoid the eschatology talk except when you are addressing a church and then go with it. Leave Robertson and Falwell out, they get too much publicity already. Talk out of Isaiah and Revelations when you create a vision. Imagine how that Isaiah 11 promise and vision of the future would play to poor, war-weary souls.
You have to know your crowd, but a politician could easily create an alternative vision to the religious right one as long as the candidate doesn't get bogged down in the usual "he said this - you said that" kind of arguing. And the vision is already set out in Biblical language that will win voters away from the religious right because it's an image that is already part of their reality.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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"What you are neglecting to emphasize is that what the right wing religious extreme is actually saying to those poor and sick women is, you have no choice but to remaimn poor or sick because god made you that way.
Not at all, that is the implication of the question I mentioned above: "It's not about eliminating choice, it's about working with people in systemic nightmares: abusive relationships, addictive situations, abject poverty and other events that cause some people to feel their choice is really no choice at all. It is really about improving social conditions so people can really are free to make a choice unencumbered by their situation."
The corrolary to that is what happens if the child is born: "is the religious right that is so concerned about the unborn child also concerned about that child after he/she is born? Concerned enough to change the conditions of all children in this country into a life of real opportunity, safety, and growth? That's the question of the Religious Left: How do we make that happen? And honestly "No Child Left Behind" sounds good as a slogan, but the program fails."
I do appreciate your sentence very much because it points out another faulty theology of the religious right: prosperity theology. It is another false teaching. God promises to walk with us through every situation we face, God will never leave or forsake. Prosperity theology, which is not always just religious right, says if you are financially and materially blessed, it's because you deserve it.
Biblical theology actually demonstrates, God's love is for all, but there is an urgency to God's love for the poor. We who are meant to be the arms and legs of Christ will stand in judgment for failing the poor. Actually the Bible says of wealth that it is meant to be used for assisting the poor. That is a message you hear very rarely in prosperity theology churches.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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posted
I have seen other so called Christians do that to others before. I think that they are not being very Christian only God really knows what is deep inside a person heart we have no business going there and passing judgement
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posted
griffon? does this mean you don't like people who thank God for helping them win Nascar races? or the guys that say send me 100 dollars so we can pray for your health?
you see?that stuff is one reason for so much "religiophobia" as you call it...
one of their main ringleaders spent a year and a half promoting one of the biggest stock scams of all time... the diamond co. CMKX...they sold well over 500 billion shares of stock.. all the while claiming to be the victims of illegal short selling... it was amazing...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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"griffon? does this mean you don't like people who thank God for helping them win Nascar races? or the guys that say send me 100 dollars so we can pray for your health?"
No it's not that so much in terms of the car racer or the wide receivers who offer thanks, Glass. What I mean is this scam, probably like the one you mentioned. The one I think of: a tele-fraud preacher says, "If you send me (i think) $58, God will bless you with material wealth." That is not Christian it's fraud, or in Biblical terms it's a "wolf in sheep's clothing" and it sounds like you are talking about something similar, though I am not familiar with CT or where I mentioned it so I can't tell you exactly what context I was using it in.
I was not talking about that trading scam because I really don't know much about investing honestly. You are correct, there have been false prophets that have mis-led people and deeply hurt them. Biblically they are promised a greater punishment than anyone else. Or the clergy abuse scandals. The victims of their misconduct in these and other cases will be forgiven even if they have been driven away from the church. God doesn't take kindly to those who use God's name to defraud and hurt sincere people of faith.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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posted
Not every person defrauding via the use if religion knows he is defrauding.
Quite often, the defrauder actually believes his "scheme" will work as he claims it will, because he believes some special connection with some religious belief or entity will make it so.
Such "honest" fraudery can exists when the one perpertrating the fraud doesn't base his beliefs on religion, too, of course.
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"neither do i...but it's darn hard for me to figger out who's a fraud and who's just confused in their faith sometimes....GOD? got no problem figgering i gues.."
It's hard, in a society so varied and complex and a religion like Christianity where legitimate discussion of what the faith and/or the religion are all about. The important thing is when a clear fraud happens that the church, or any organization, take steps to remove that potentiality and to make restitution. It isn't enough to undo what has happened, but it is the best we can do.
I do understand the struggle and the frustration, with much bad theology out there, where is God in all of it? God is where God has always been though, working through inept people like me, the clay jars of the world, cracked, chipped and scarred, to help people become whole. Not in my image, but as God molds and shapes them to be. And that shapes my theology.
For instance, (and I am not trying to be patronizing here, I just do not know what your spiritual experience is or has been) my personal theology is heavily influenced by Latin American and African-American Liberation Theology along with John Wesley and Eastern Orthodox spirituality. No matter what though, semper Deus major, God is greater than we comprehend so no theology is complete but the mind of Christ.
The way that plays out in my life sets up tensions of emphases between social justice and advocacy for the poor, personal piety and spirituality and evangelical witness. In other words, a mixture of what would be considered liberal and traditional beliefs. I am traditional about who Jesus is and moderately liberal about the eschaton. Because I believe in the Biblical witness of Jesus and the commission of the Body of Christ, I believe the church must work in the world not for some future, pie-in-the-sky by-and-by, but for the kingdom of God to be realized in the here and now. I do not believe in a fully realized eschatology, but we can make progress in environmental and social systems.
What does that look like to me? My ideal, which I do not think we can fully realize but we can begin to do so, is found in those two images of Isaiah's "Mountain of God" and Revelation's "New Jerusalem" where people of all nations and, on the basis of God's prevenient grace, faiths and philosophies including atheism will find a place to call home. In short I am a Christocentric Universalist. I have a belief in the Andover Theory which states that everyone at some point in history or at the end of time will have an encounter with Christ with the opportunity to accept or reject Him. God does not let us go very easily, but if we choose that, God allows even that out of deep love.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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Ahhh, yes, "nearer profection", the darling of Friedrich Nietzsche, which the Nazis used for the underpinning of their own Nazi philosophy, a marvelous manipulation of ethical reality used to train the masses that racial prejudice is not just acceptabel but requires racial extermination of those "others", those "unclean", those "that nature never meant to be allowed to participate" and whose existance prevents the search for "nearer perfection".
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Now, some further help in understanding why the Democrats need the Religious Left. Twenty percent of George Bush's vote in 2004 came from Evangelical voters. Those voters which the Democratic party never even attempted to reach, either because they were afraid or they couldn't articulate the message, cost Kerry the election.
That amounted to over 15,000,000 votes if I heard correctly. Kerry lost by 2,000,000+. If a Democratic effort had been articulated to Religious Left voters like me, 1/5th of those votes Bush got could have easily swung the other way. That would have been 3,000,000 votes. Now in Iowa or Ohio or even some of the Southern states, that could have been the margin that swung the state. What was the margin in EC terms?
Given the closeness of overturning the Supreme Court, the Democrats ceding 15,000,000 votes every general election is not a wise option. Now there are some, even on this board, that would rather lose than work with the Religious Left. Given the reality I have just laid out, it is obvious that is a failing option in our present political environment. What worked through the 70s and 80s does not work anymore.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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"there for a minute? I was afraid this was assigned reading..."
well, I'm no teacher, though it is part of my professional role, so even when I assign reading it's always voluntary.
In other words it's pretty much like our reality in High School. If you're in the mood to read great. If not the books stay in the locker. Pretty much the same with everything I type.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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As school began a few weeks ago, I began my practice of baking a dessert once a week for seminary. Now in the midst of my hectic life, this may seem to be a waste of time. Several people have expressed that concern. But that dessert is an embodied covenant I made with God when this journey first began. I asked God in prayer for a spiritual discipline I could cultivate while at seminary hoping God would lead me into deeper relationship not only with God, but with those around me as well.
The answer to that prayer led me into the practice of the discipline of service to others. It is not always convenient: this week I missed most of a football game and last week I got up at 4 a.m. to finish a special tart. It sometimes means I go without something I need or want, but the discipline of service also teaches me what a true need is. So much of our life is lived confusing wants and needs.
How I came to this spiritual practice surely only the Holy Spirit can say for sure. For most of us discipline is a hard word. There is a conflict within us, we need discipline, but we want independence. When there is a football game I want to sit and watch, when I am tired I want to sleep, and yet even as I make batters and frostings, there is a part of me that feels most at peace. It is in practicing something that I fully do for the glory of God that I find peace, and this simple act of service to others is that expression I can give fulfilling the covenant with God.
Oh what a joy divine, offering to others the very love that God has blessed me with. I encourage you to try that sometime. Find a way that you can covenant with God to do something: Bible reading, praying, service to others, or something else that God moves in the secret reaches of your heart. You will find the joyous peace that comes fires your imagination, fills you through and through, and sets you on the path that leads you closer to God and to each other.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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"Oh what a joy divine, offering to others the very love that God has blessed me with. I encourage you to try that sometime. Find a way that you can covenant with God to do something: "
lol...
GOT IT!
God? she's a telling a me to keep a big ol' eye on you....
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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posted
When the topic of the thread is the crux of the posts I answer Tex. The thread also records the fun and unpleasant things thrown my way. It's all good. As I said yesterday, people are free to say what they will, but I will stick to my topic. People are free to post all around what I set out, some new friends are watching, you'll meet them soon.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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So you only talk about the thread's topic? You might want to rethink that strategy, as it will do no good. I doubt there is one thread on this board that stays on topic for more than a page.. Have fun putting people to sleep.
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Still hanging around on my threads huh? If you don't like what you read, why the obsession with my threads? As the light draws moths, there must be light in what I say that you are drawn to. Not to call you moths, but the analogy is accurate. I find the personal references to my person amusing but really, they add nothing to the topic.
Really it all comes down to this: if all we can do is make personal attacks, insults instead of talking issues in politics we have all been Rove'd, Dean-ed, Hillary'd, Rush-ed, Sheehan'd, Hannity'd, Robertson'd, Kennedy'd blame any of those and you are at least partially right. They have convinced us the nasty road, the divide and conqueor mentality, is more important than issue and we always lose that way. We trade insults while people freeze to death in dumpsters or cook to death on park benches.
If the personalized insults are all we can advance and respond to, then we have allowed the leaders of these two parties to divide us. And if we only want to hear that mind-numbing prattle, then our days as a strong nation are past. They are selling us down the river folks. And if all we do is look for shock jock entertainment value on every thread of these boards, then we play right into that hand.
If that is the type of discussion you like and thrive on, that's fine, but I'm not going to play that game. Did I fall into the trap? Sure did! Am I brave enough to dig out of that trap, strong enough to break the jaws of that trap, only time will tell. As with all Christians, I can confess I am a sinner, the worst of sinners, I will fail, stumble, fall down, but the One who is my strength is able to make me stand. That's all I need.
You find that strength anyway you choose, we as a nation are in this together.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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