i understand what you mean Art, but i suggest that it doesn't turn off, but,that we are "seeing" the peaks and valleys of the waves, and the we are not capable of seeing the "rest" of it because it's aspect is alien to us....it's never off....it's just at different "angles" from our "experience" that's "when" the other multiverses get to "be"
quote:Originally posted by glassman: one last reply tonight...
i understand what you mean Art, but i suggest that it doesn't turn off, but,that we are "seeing" the peaks and valleys of the waves, and the we are not capable of seeing the "rest" of it because it's aspect is alien to us....it's never off....it's just at different "angles" from our "experience" that's "when" the other multiverses get to "be"
How do you explain the quantum leap where the electron disappears from one orbit and simultaneously reappears in another orbit without moving across orbits, or quantum tunneling where a particle dissapears and simultaneously reappears on the other side of a barrier without going through the barrier, or teleportation of a particle across vast space instantly, or time slips where people step into the past or future for some time, then come back, or disappearnces of people who vanish right in front of witnesses?
Particles are reconfigured in successive descrete steps - nothing moves, it just repositions slightly and unnoticeably from one frame to the next in quantum leaps.
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Art, I don't doubt that you have emotion, but I doubt if it is as great as mine, since you've said that you only care about the people you choose yourself, that encompasses a very small number! I choose to care for everyone, and that includes my enemies! I am only able to do this, with the Holy Spirit, which is something you will never understand! No scientific data will ever replace God! His love, allows me to care about YOU! It allows me to care enough to grieve for those who were affected by the tidal wave! It allows me to care about the Iraqi people; even the terrorists! Love isn't a weakness, it is a strength! It hurts, and it heals! It isn't something you can study with scientific equipment, because it is an emotion! Being a "good" person, isn't enough! Anyone can do good things; even the most ruthless murderer. The Bible is being fulfilled! The hurricanes, volcanos, earthquakes and Tsunami, are just the beginning! God is at work, even in these tragedies! If you want to do some research, check out how many storms we've been having over the last ten years, compared to before! Check out the earthquakes! We can expect more!
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quote:Originally posted by Art: How do you explain the quantum leap where the electron disappears from one orbit and simultaneously reappears in another orbit without moving across orbits, or quantum tunneling where a particle dissapears and simultaneously reappears on the other side of a barrier without going through the barrier, or teleportation of a particle across vast space instantly, or time slips where people step into the past or future for some time, then come back, or disappearnces of people who vanish right in front of witnesses?
Particles are reconfigured in successive descrete steps - nothing moves, it just repositions slightly and unnoticeably from one frame to the next in quantum leaps.
i'm not sure it's considered good form to go beyond previouly published ideas on an internet BB Art....remember humpty-dumpty... ok, why not...it is probably published and i just don't know.. the latest catch-phrase is quantum foam.... stop looking at the particles and look at the medium they "move" thru....
the shape of "space" cannot be "seen"... time,for us, does not flow thru the full amount of space, our time only flows across certain portions of it...these portions represent our "limited" perceptions of space... the electrons, as they move thru space, are moving thru a much more complicated set of coordinates than we can perceive, but during the majority of their travel, they are out our universe, and in others(other parts of the multi-verse)....
even more important, space itself is what enforces the conservation of energy, because, it IS the energy....
quote:Originally posted by Kate: Art, I don't doubt that you have emotion, but I doubt if it is as great as mine, since you've said that you only care about the people you choose yourself, that encompasses a very small number! I choose to care for everyone, and that includes my enemies! I am only able to do this, with the Holy Spirit, which is something you will never understand! No scientific data will ever replace God! His love, allows me to care about YOU! It allows me to care enough to grieve for those who were affected by the tidal wave! It allows me to care about the Iraqi people; even the terrorists! Love isn't a weakness, it is a strength! It hurts, and it heals! It isn't something you can study with scientific equipment, because it is an emotion! Being a "good" person, isn't enough! Anyone can do good things; even the most ruthless murderer. The Bible is being fulfilled! The hurricanes, volcanos, earthquakes and Tsunami, are just the beginning! God is at work, even in these tragedies! If you want to do some research, check out how many storms we've been having over the last ten years, compared to before! Check out the earthquakes! We can expect more!
It's about time God started killing people - the earth is much too populated with humans.
You love everyone, and this will reward those who would hurt or exploit you, so they will go on to hurt and exploit many others. Your love thus encourages evil and is evil. I don't love those who would hurt or exploit - I hate them and would try to eliminate them from my nation. I love only those who contribute to me, my kin, or my country. Those who would take away from, or hurt, me, my kin, or my nation, are not loved by me, and often are hated by me instead.
Just because you love inappropriately does not mean you have more emotion - it means your emotion is misguided and lacking in discrimination - a fool's emotion.
posted
Originally posted by Art: How do you explain the quantum leap where the electron disappears from one orbit and simultaneously reappears in another orbit without moving across orbits, or quantum tunneling where a particle dissapears and simultaneously reappears on the other side of a barrier without going through the barrier, or teleportation of a particle across vast space instantly, or time slips where people step into the past or future for some time, then come back, or disappearnces of people who vanish right in front of witnesses? Particles are reconfigured in successive descrete steps - nothing moves, it just repositions slightly and unnoticeably from one frame to the next in quantum leaps.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: i'm not sure it's considered good form to go beyond previouly published ideas on an internet BB Art....remember humpty-dumpty... ok, why not...it is probably published and i just don't know.. the latest catch-phrase is quantum foam.... stop looking at the particles and look at the medium they "move" thru....
the shape of "space" cannot be "seen"... time,[b]for us, does not flow thru the full amount of space, our time only flows across certain portions of it...these portions represent our "limited" perceptions of space... the electrons, as they move thru space, are moving thru a much more complicated set of coordinates than we can perceive, but during the majority of their travel, they are out our universe, and in others(other parts of the multi-verse)....
even more important, space itself is what enforces the conservation of energy, because, it IS the energy....
[/B]
Originally posted by Art: How do you explain the quantum leap where the electron disappears from one orbit and simultaneously reappears in another orbit without moving across orbits, or quantum tunneling where a particle dissapears and simultaneously reappears on the other side of a barrier without going through the barrier, or teleportation of a particle across vast space instantly, or time slips where people step into the past or future for some time, then come back, or disappearnces of people who vanish right in front of witnesses? Particles are reconfigured in successive descrete steps - nothing moves, it just repositions slightly and unnoticeably from one frame to the next in quantum leaps.
posted
Since God is no respector of persons Art, it means he loves the terrorist, just the same as he loves you and me. He teaches us to love one another, as he loves us. It isn't the terrorists fault, that he doesn't know any better, because he doesn't know the truth that will set him free, just as it isn't yours! You can't blame a baby for doing what is wrong, when he hasn't learned the difference; so it is with people, in God's eyes! REAL love, is never evil! If people would care enough about others, as they do for their own selves, we wouldn't have any problems! Think about it! Personally, I look forward to living in a world without problems, and war, and hate, and darkness, and looking forward to living in a world with total love, continuous learning, joy, and peace! What you are saying to me, is that my caring for you as a person, is evil! Hmmmmm! Strange! Would you like me better, if I hated you, and wanted to hurt and destroy you? I'm sorry, but your emotions are misguided Art! You go and take a poll, and see how many people think love is evil, when it doesn't pertain to themselves! I bet you are in the smallest minority with your thinking! That is what is wrong with the world! People don't give love, and they won't accept love! They only think about themselves! That is the definition of the word, "selfish"
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: stop looking at the particles and look at their environment.....
it is a strobic effect.....
Fine. How does the environment of particles produce paranormal effects. How do you explain the quantum leap where the electron disappears from one orbit and simultaneously reappears in another orbit without moving across orbits, or quantum tunneling where a particle dissapears and simultaneously reappears on the other side of a barrier without going through the barrier, or teleportation of a particle across vast space instantly, or time slips where people step into the past or future for some time, then come back, or disappearnces of people who vanish right in front of witnesses? Particles are reconfigured in successive descrete steps - nothing moves, it just repositions slightly and unnoticeably from one frame to the next in quantum leaps.
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Kate: Since God is no respector of persons Art, it means he loves the terrorist, just the same as he loves you and me.
Art: The universal quantum computational process (God) doesn't love or hate. Aspects of that process, in individual personalities (both carnate and incarnate) do love and hate and do act in angelic ways and in demonic ways. We are not filfilling God's will by always loving everyone - we thereby fail to learn from experience and remain stagnant in our soul development, in being a fool.
Kate: He teaches us to love one another, as he loves us.
Art: No, you "get off" on loving others and become a complusive lover of humanity. You selfishly pursue your compulsion and justify it with delusions of a God that wants you to engage in your compulsion. I am starting a new religion for sexual compulsives - the God of this religion wants us to have sex as often and with as many people as we can, regardless of the consequences to self or others. This is less evil than your religion of loving everyone and thereby encouraging their evil, and you find heaven on earth with my religion.
Kate: It isn't the terrorists fault, that he doesn't know any better, because he doesn't know the truth that will set him free, just as it isn't yours!
Art: Blame is an evaluation that assesses causality for pain, frustration, suffering, etc. Regardless of why the terrorist kills, if they kill innocent people or those who your care, they are properly blamed for evil. You can love them and send them money - not me.
Kate: You can't blame a baby for doing what is wrong, when he hasn't learned the difference; so it is with people, in God's eyes!
Art: Yes, unconditional love is appropriate for the infant, but not for the child or for anyone else. Conditional love (and hate) is appropriate for other than the infant. You should love only those who in some way contribute or help, now or in the future, either you, your kin or your nation - conditional love, and reject or hate eveyone else. This is wise love that discourages evil and promotes good. We are not our brother's keeper - our brother is responsible for himself. That makes our brother act in good ways to help himself or others. Providing unconditionally for our brother or anyone else will destroy them - make them dependent and lazy, and encourage them to be evil.
Kate: REAL love, is never evil!
Art: Only if provided conditionally, as deserved.
Kate: If people would care enough about others, as they do for their own selves, we wouldn't have any problems! Think about it!
Art: Liberal idealistic BS - that will never, ever happen. There will always be situations forcing you to choose between self or others, and loving others means hating your self, and loving your self means hating others. Hate is as necessary as love, will alwys remain in parity to love, and in the final analysis is as good as love.
Kate: Personally, I look forward to living in a world without problems, and war, and hate, and darkness, and looking forward to living in a world with total love, continuous learning, joy, and peace!
Art: You are describing a drug trip of pure pleasure, except for the loving and learning part, and both loving and learning involve pain and suffering, and neither can occur without pain and suffering.
Kate: What you are saying to me, is that my caring for you as a person, is evil!
Art: You don't care for me since you argue against me, and at the moment of doing so, you hate me in a very mild way. Now this hate is mixed with love, since you are trying to set my thinking straight and thereby help me. So this is moral hate or hate based in love. This is the same as when you punish a child for running out into the street - in punishing the child you show hate, but it is based in love that wants to protect the child from harm. A hate fre wporld is impossible - a world without any discipline or teaching for example.
Kate: Hmmmmm! Strange! Would you like me better, if I hated you, and wanted to hurt and destroy you?
Art: I would like you if you could send me money.
Kate: I'm sorry, but your emotions are misguided Art! You go and take a poll, and see how many people think love is evil, when it doesn't pertain to themselves! I bet you are in the smallest minority with your thinking!
Art: That would confirm the validity of my views - if most agreed with me I would likely be wrong.
Kate: That is what is wrong with the world! People don't give love, and they won't accept love! They only think about themselves! That is the definition of the word, "selfish"
Art: What is wrong with the world is ignorance and stupidity. Selfishness "is", and what is is fine. The problem is that selfishness is often best served by selflessness in helping (loving) others. We should thus be loving as it serves our best interests (actually, the best interests of our genes in seeking continued membership in the human gene pool). Our best selfish interests are served, as I have said, when we wisely love and hate on a conditional basis - helping those who contribute or reciprocate to us, our kin, or our nation, hating those who take from or exploit us, our kin, or our nation. This is the true morality that is consistent with enhancing human soul development.
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simply put, our experience of time is independant of space. check out "absolute motion"....relativity hints at this..
your theories are not incorrect..... and of course the Theory Of Everything is still incomplete...
i personally do not like to use the terms multi-verse/universe, but that is what we are stuck with right now...i prefer to think in terms of OUR part of the universe, and other parts.
our consciousness is limited to OUR part of the universe....
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My oh my,, my son when he was small, ran out into the street, and scared the crap out of me, and my love for him, never turned to hate! I was scared for his life, and angry that he had disobeyed me! Anger is different than hate, Art! Where do you come up with this stuff? And how do you know, that you aren't "wrong?" Maybe you are wrong, and I am right! Posts: 622 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Kate: My oh my,, my son when he was small, ran out into the street, and scared the crap out of me, and my love for him, never turned to hate! I was scared for his life, and angry that he had disobeyed me! Anger is different than hate, Art! Where do you come up with this stuff? And how do you know, that you aren't "wrong?" Maybe you are wrong, and I am right!
I am not saying you felt hate for your son, but only that in disciplining him, you ezpressed hate motivation, where the motivational processes are unconscious. You may have spanked him or yelled at him, and this was an aggressive response - a hate reponse. Sure it was born of love, but we can be aggressive out of love when it is for the person's own good. This is hate - aggression - motivated by love - a moral hate.
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love is love. Hate is not love and never motivated by love.
But love is imperfect in this world so all love is matter of degree. I will even use perfect mental health as synomous with love. When we are god, then we have perfect love. But all on earth are here to learn love.
All lessons here are to learn love.
Anger is negative and not love. I may love my kids but when I get angry at them i am displaying my issues. I am away from love or god.
When i get angry, I am aware it is issues within me. All negative emotion is a reflection of who we are.. If I get angry it is because I have issues and unfortunately my anger is taken on someone else. Actually, yelling is abuse.
If a child steps put on the street, I may shout but not yell. And get to child and remove then discipline in a positive way. An angry person may say, you bad boy, or how stupid you are..all abusive.. a loving response could be...mom loves you so much and you stepping out scared mom.. It is danger ..very firm talk but no anger.
when we use anger, we are not being loving.
Howevr, to be fair, who on earth is perfect? we are created perfect like the creator but we have separated and lost that. Our essence is perfection but our will makes imperfect choices. As we move closer to god, we are more loving.
I find funny when folks say anger is loving..NEVER is anger love. But again to be fair, I am human and I am not perfect..learning love.. Those that are most angry and most abusive are those that have alot of hate, turn that hate and anger unto others or themselves. They abuse others and/or themselves. Those that have anger and hate turn inwards onto themselves or ooutwards onto others. How many folks use alcohol, addiction,etc..anger a turned onto onesef..yelling, hate, violence, etc..anger onto others. Neither is love only hate and reflection of who we are, how unaware we are.
Those that are more aware will be aware that any anger are issues within oneself that need attention to grow and become better people, hence closer to love/god. For me god is unity..love..positive energy...
posted
i like the idea of God being love, but the more i learn about creation, the more i relaise that the Creator left us a few nasties to deal with....lions and tigers are just the start...
dengue and malaria carrying mosquitoes bite innocent babies too....
these obstacles were meant to teach us something....
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thinkmoney: love is love. Hate is not love and never motivated by love.
Art: Motivations can be mixed and one can be based on another. Any kind of discipline to correct behavior has to at least point out where a person is wrong (made a mistake) and this punishment, however mild, hurts the disciplined person (however little it may hurt). Thus, any kind of discipline is aggressive to at least a very small extent. Now this aggression is based in love for the person being disciplined - hate issues from love. When the hate is greater than the love, then the discipline is definitely hostile. We have al been disciplined by mean people, and it is hard to see love in such discipline. When the love is greater than the hate, the discipline is more loving and has little sting as we realize the person is trying to help us.
When the killer cuts into your body, the aggression without love is obvious. When the surgeon cuts into your body, the act is still motivatrd by aggression based in hate motivation, but this hate is itself based in love motivation, since the surgeon cuts you up to eventually help you - moral aggression.
Kate: But love is imperfect in this world so all love is matter of degree. I will even use perfect mental health as synomous with love. When we are god, then we have perfect love. But all on earth are here to learn love.
Art: Perfect love is conditional love based on knowledge of causality - it rewards behavior that contributes to self, family or national well-being while punishes behavior that does the opposite. Perfect love applies hate as well as love to improve life for self, family and nation. We should only love another nation (or anyone else) on the condition that it we imediately or eventually be reciprocated in some way.
Imperfect love is unconditional love as it rewards criminals, incompetence, exploiters, and hostile attackers. Turning the other cheek only works sometimes, and rewards evil at other times (and thus turning the other cheek is evil sometimes). Weakness all to often invites aggression. Jesus got it wrong and unconditional love is often evil.
Kate: All lessons here are to learn love.
Art: Yes to learn to love wisely - always conditionally except to the infant where unconditional love is appropriate. Poets may idolize unconditional love based on dependency needs to be loved as an infant.
You idolize love and say you love everyone unconditionally, as many religions teach. This is a feel good idea - idealstic but unrealistic. When people say this is foolish of you - always turning the other cheek, you have to believe that yes, I will suffer here on earth by loving everyone unconditionally - many will take advantage of me or hurt me - but I will make up for it in heaven and be paid back with eternal bliss. Religion uses the delusional idea of heaven (where, I understand, many virgins are awaiting to give me sexual pleasure) to make up for the pain of loving unconditionaly on earth.
Kate: Anger is negative and not love.
Art: Depends. Some peole find it very positive, relaxing and pleasureable, to hurt or kill others.
Kate: If a child steps put on the street, I may shout but not yell.
Art: Yes, hate motivated by love. Depends on the relative contribution of each. You shout in a softer tone when love is stronger than hate and yell in a hostile tone when hate is stronger than love, when you discipline.
Kate: As we move closer to god, we are more loving.
Art: As well as more hating. We both love and hate generously and fully, as appropriate.
Kate: Anger is never loving.
Art: We aggresively kill terrorists in anger and this is loving those we protect from terrorist aggression. Anger is always loving, just not always loving to the one we ahow anger towards.
Kate: Those that are more aware will be aware that any anger are issues within oneself that need attention to grow and become better people, hence closer to love/god.
Art: Not true. Anger is often not created just within oneself but created from the environment (including other people).
Kate: For me god is unity..love..positive energy...
Art: For me that is Santa Claus you are describing.
Posts: 4402 | From: Florida | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: i like the idea of God being love, but the more i learn about creation, the more i relaise that the Creator left us a few nasties to deal with....lions and tigers are just the start...
dengue and malaria carrying mosquitoes bite innocent babies too....
these obstacles were meant to teach us something....
Art: Yes, they are here to teach us something - a lesson from God - kill or be killed.Posts: 4402 | From: Florida | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
anger is not created by the environment. the environment can bring out anger that is already in us.
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art..take a look at those that are angry...usually torn inside and not happy. Those in anger have no peace.
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quote:Originally posted by thinkmoney: you got it wrong art..so much..
Ill answer one...your menaing of discipline apparently ties it o punishment..which is negative and old school.
My meaning of discipline implies guidance and positive.
You and Kate are thinking in terms of conscious interpretation - you discipline out of love only in this interpretation. However, popular conscious interpretation is often in error.
You have to understand unconscious processes, where love molds hate to produce discipline. All discipline involves a base of hate expressed in punishment - albeit very mild perhaps - at an unconscious processing level.
Give me an example of discipline that has no punishing aspects - be specific and don't just say "loving correction". Posts: 4402 | From: Florida | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Originally posted by thinkmoney: anger is not created by the environment. the environment can bring out anger that is already in us.
And if the environment doesn't bring it out, it is not there inside - in most cases - so the environment does create it. There is endogenous anger that will be expressed regardles of the environment one is in - we say such people are just born mean - but this is infrequent.Posts: 4402 | From: Florida | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Originally posted by thinkmoney: art..take a look at those that are angry...usually torn inside and not happy. Those in anger have no peace.
True in many cases, but not in many other cases. There are as many problems caused by expressing anger too much, or having too much anger, as there are in not expressing anger, or not having enough. Here we have to ask "problems for who - self or others?" since my anger expression is often great for me but hard on others.
Love is not always good it can be evil, and hate is not always bad - it can be good. The U.S. saved well over amillion lives in WW II by killing a much lesser amount in atomic bomb attacks on Japan. Japan was preparing for a prolonged defensive war involving a U.S. invasion over many years. Japanese women and children were being trained and defensive fortifications were being built. It was thought that after years of fighting and supplying troops thousands of miles from home, that the U.S. would give up and return home eventualy. Sure, after millions of lives were lost on both sides. The use of atomic bombs was good - hate and aggression therein was good - not using the bombs in loving the enemy would have been evil - cost over a million lives. Hate can be good and love can be evil.Posts: 4402 | From: Florida | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
An example of discipline where no punishment? Are you for real? I try to discipline my kids and not punish them. Discipline is to provid guidance to children so as to shape them. I use various ways to discipline my kids most no punishment but I will admit some are punishment.
An example would be to praise wanted behavior. When you praise wanted behavior it is disciplining children a certain way.. .Darling..you were wonderful in helping your sister. the child feels good and is given discipline.
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posted
dont put me in same category as Kate, kate is programmed religiously. and, I am not religious, spiritual yes but not religious.
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posted
we are all conditioned by the environmnet but anger is a result of negative conditioning. Also, anger is innate as well as environmntal.
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posted
we are all conditioned by the environmnet but anger is a result of negative conditioning. Also, anger is innate as well as environmntal.
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no hate is good. But this earht is imperfect so hate resides as well as love. there is good and evil....
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Expresssing emotion is healthy, best anyone can do for themselves. Repressed emotion leads to anger, etc. onto oneself or others. Expressing emotion is fine but not all behavior is approppriate. when, i am angry, i say so. I feel angry ..that is expression but to harm another is behavior and not appropriate. But it seems you dont get it so please continue to intrpret your world scientifically and repress your emotion, but i grant you you will not have peace.
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quote:Originally posted by thinkmoney: An example of discipline where no punishment? Are you for real? An example would be to praise wanted behavior. When you praise wanted behavior it is disciplining children a certain way.. .Darling..you were wonderful in helping your sister. the child feels good and is given discipline.
No, that is shaping desired behavior - not disciplining for undesired behavior - a world of difference. Teaching is disciplining when it involves correction, but is shaping desired behavior when it only rewards correct behavior. Rewarding behavior that is incompatible with undesired behavior is likewise not disciplining. Give me a true example of discipline and I will show you the hate-motivated punishment involved.Posts: 4402 | From: Florida | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Originally posted by thinkmoney: dont put me in same category as Kate, kate is programmed religiously. and, I am not religious, spiritual yes but not religious.
Both you and Kate tend to use overgeneralized abstractions - lacking in realistic discrimination. A mild form of thought disorder. An example is your idea that shaping desired behavior with reward alone is discipline - your abstract category of 'discipline' is too generalized and should not include shaping with reward only. Shaping with reward does instill desired behabvior but discipline is a response against undesired behavior. Posts: 4402 | From: Florida | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Originally posted by thinkmoney: we are all conditioned by the environmnet but anger is a result of negative conditioning. Also, anger is innate as well as environmntal.
Our experience and behavior is a marriage of intellect (creative, non-verbal, and conceptual) and innate impulses as positively and negatively reinforced. With sufficient reinforcenment these married processes become conditioned in our bank of verbal and non-verbal knowledge.
Failure (pain, frustration, loss, etc.) induces a state of unconscious depression or hurt (may or may not emrge as a feeling - usually doesn't). This state is restructered as aggression when blame assessment directs it, but again this is usually not felt in feeling experience - you can be angry or depressed and never know it. Aggression in turn can be restructured by love into moral-hate as when the surgeon opens you up, or, as when you kill the tiger about to devour the child, but again, none of this needs to be felt - it may merely produce actions. Posts: 4402 | From: Florida | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Originally posted by thinkmoney: no hate is good. But this earht is imperfect so hate resides as well as love. there is good and evil....
Hate is as good as love - both are absolutely necessary and must be maintained in parity. Everything feeds on everything else and hate-aggression is the driving force for such exploitation, necessary for survival and development. In fact, hate is more vital here than love - we could have life and development without love but not without hate. There would be no life on earth with love only - nothing would eat anything else for one thing. You might think that humans could do fine without hate but they never would have evolved, and if evolved, could never survive.Posts: 4402 | From: Florida | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
And apparently, you are totally unaware. You know it all and have all the answers. YOu and Kate seem to think alike where your vision is tunnel vision. There are 2 schools regarding discipline..one where we think it is punishment and the other we view discipline as guidance.
When my kid picks her nose, ill say...hey you got gold in there?? please dont because that is not a nice manner. I am providing discipline but you will NEVER see that..
So get your belt out and punish becasue that is who you are. and very rigid. But punishment is negative and not discipline.
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