Originally posted by glassman:
hey look everybody, the water is running out of the beach let's run out there and see why
and Darwin's theory is proven again
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
hey look everybody, the water is running out of the beach let's run out there and see why
and Darwin's theory is proven again
Going against Darwin's theory is liberal idealism - ignores reality that can't be changed by wishful thinking.
News flash to liberals:
1. Taking away guns from citizens only increases crime while law abidding citizens have no protection. Washington DC is an example of how gun control increases crime and states with right to carry guns laws have less crime than other states.
2. There will always be war. Sure we should try to resolve conflicts with each others peacefully but we should embrace violence when peaceful resolution fails and not try to always maintain a peaceful world in spite of growing evil threat to us.
3. Loving others always involves hating your self - giving to ohers always involves some self sacrifice in effort, money or material. We must always love only those who contribute to the general good of the nation and hate others in and out of our nation. Otherwise we will deteriorate and destroy our nation, which is our selves. Liberals who would give welfare out of some crazy universal love notion would destroy us. We should seal our borders and shoot and kill illegals who try to sneak across. Anyone who comes into our nation illegally is more likely to also act illegally once they get here. Duh! We don't need to feed, clothe and care for parasites who sneak illegally into our country - only liberal nuts think otherwise.
[This message has been edited by Art (edited January 01, 2005).]
so we can all be one big happy family?
oh no i forgot, as long as we have homos amongst us we are still doomed by God....
Art: You live in a fantasy world.
Kate: According to what you just said, how you must hate yourself!
Art: Not at all. I simply know when/who to love and when/who to hate, and know that both love and hate are necessary, and in the final analysis, both are good.
Kate: You know, even though you believe this way, I still care about you as a person! What does that say about me?
Art: That you are a fool. I have done nothing but hurt you, though if you could understand what I have said it would help you.
Kate: Have you ever lost everything Art?
Art: No - been poor though.
Kate: I have spent the last week mourning for those families, and here you are, not wanting to help them? Why? What is the motive here?
Art: I don't want to help them because it is a drain on me and my nation for which nothing will ever come back to us. You would give away my tax dollars in waste and you are evil for this. As long as you alone suffer for your misguided piety, that is fine with me. It is called charity, where giving is up to the individual. We have people in our own nation that would take our aid to better themselves and contribute to our nation in the future. That is where our money should go - we all would get a return on giving such aid.
Kate: It all comes down to money! What is more important to you here? It seems obvious that it isn't human life!
Art: Yes, money buys happiness for our selves and our future generations. Liberal idiots want to give it away and make our selves and future generations less happy or unhappy.
Kate: I don't want to hear the argument that we have starving people in our own country, because if everyone in this country, would stop being selfish, and would contribute to helping each other, we wouldn't have any problems!
Art: If we fed all of the poor, they would multiply and create even more poor, then we would feed them and have more poor to feed, and so on. Your humanity is evil and you don't realize it.
Kate: Why do you always expect it to be from the government? Can't you do anything yourself?
Art: Yes, government should stay out of the charity business and leave it to the individual to help others or not. Then the parasites would die from lack of help, and the world would be a bette place.
Anyone who needs help, and will not return that help in future productivity in contributing to the national welfare, is a parasite.
All nations are in competition for wealth. Those that increase the parasites in thier nation, with liberal policies, will lose out and become poor. Those that kill or reduce their parasites will grow stronger and win out with a high standard of living for their citizens.
Kate: Don't you have a little money to spare?
Art: Yes. I will give it if it benefits myself or those I love, and my love extends only to those who will reciprocate it in the future.
Kate: I hope you have a wonderful New Year, just you, your hated self, and your hoarded money! I plan to pray for those less fortunate, and contribute to their cause! I also pray for you, Art, whether you like it or not!
Art: Could you send me money instead of a prayer?
[This message has been edited by Art (edited January 01, 2005).]
the struggle continues....
there's no use in fighting, if there's nothing to win...
hang in there Kate... you are both correct...heheh....
the illegals on the other hand, have to go.... maybe (eventually)they can come back LEGALLY but amnesty will only encourage more lawlessness
Art, even though you are logically CORRECT i feel i should point out that one of the more interesting theories of evolution (to me) is that mitochondria were once parasites...they eventually became symbionts and incorporated into the cells, but still maintain separate reproductive activity...
that is probably the reason eukaryotes were able to evolve...
the struggle continues....
there's no use in fighting, if there's nothing to win...
Art: In a sense all organisms are parasites - we all live off of each other. However, symbiosis is the key - love and help those who are symbiotic (who can reciprocate in the future to contribute to your self, family, friends or nation, while avoid, exclude, hate and kill those who would take from you without providing such reciprocation. This is the law of the jungle as you have indicated before. It is based on reality and not wishful fantasy.
It seems to me that relief to the Indonesians would be wasted as they will never reciprocate, but maybe this is wrong. Maybe Powell is getting some political assistance (intelligence on terrorism, etc.) from Indonesians and wants to reciprocate to them for this help, or wants to build closer relations for future assitance they might give us. If so the $350 million in relief may be worth it to us.
Kate is right from the perspective of emotional thinking based on need, but my thought is based in reality. Kate's "universal love" is "feel good" thought that fulfills the need to love others. most of have this need - it gives us pleasure to give. Giving is thus selfish. I am saying giving is foolish if not reciprocated in the future, perhaps indirectly and in the distant future. Many say it all comes back, but the reality is that only some comes back to us. The wise person restricts love and giving to only when there is a good chance it will come back in reciprocation, while the fool doesn't care.
As far as the senselessness of fighting, you are wrong. The world is a battleground where war and competition are incessant, but this is necessary and good. It produces development - evolution and growth. In this development all things get closer to perfection, and, at a soul level of eternal existence, all things become wiser in more unified participation in the quantum computational process at the foundation of matter. This proces is cosmic consciousness or God. We reincarnate, develop wisdom with each life experience, and with increasing wisdom we particiapte in closer unity to the universla quantum computational process underlying matter - we gradually return to God.
i said there's no use in fighting if there's nothing to win....
that was the lesson of the cold war eh?
absolute power is the power to destroy.....
the nuclear age is what bred the "suicide" bomber.....
as the geo-political situation continues to unfold, Bush has somehow been granted another chance to become a truly great leader. i guess that is just life....we'll see how he plays this pitch....so far(IMO, which is worthless), he's way behind in the count...
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
art, i didn't say there's no use in fighting,i said there's no use in fighting if there's nothing to win....
that was the lesson of the cold war eh?
absolute power is the power to destroy.....
the nuclear age is what bred the "suicide" bomber.....
as the geo-political situation continues to unfold, Bush has somehow been granted another chance to become a truly great leader. i guess that is just life....we'll see how he plays this pitch....so far(IMO, which is worthless), he's way behind in the count...
There is always something to win - some positives always result from conflict - war is always good and bad - good for some and bad for others.
We won the cold war in winning the arms race, which crippled Russia's economy, and eliminated them as a global threat. The lessons of the cold war, as with any war, is to fight and win. Might makes right in the real world - not whining about the injustices in life.
Bush is about to show the world how right he was in invading Iraq. He has drawn the terrorists out so as to be able to kill them, is getting support from Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Pakistan, and other Arab countries fighting terrorism, and will be victorious eventually. The US military presence in Iraq is making Iran and Syria cautious, and is convincing the Palestinians that peace with Israel is best.
Had the US pulled out and not invaded Iraq, Saddam would have gotten the sanctions lifted and would now be re-starting his dormant WMD programs. Al-Qaeda would be secretly allying with Saddam and getting WMD. Many thousands would die in the US in the near future, and there would be no chance of Arab-Israeli peace. This is what the liberals wanted.
your predictions about the woulda and coulda in Iraq? are just that...
predictions and speculations...
i still maintain that we will need to be present in Iraq indefinitely...(i never predicted anything different, hence my opposition to entering at all)that said, i say we do what we went there to do, and do it right....i never suggested leaving is an option, nor have i been critical of the situation for moral reasons...i think some grave errors of logic/judgement have occurred based on serious cultural differences between us
these people we are fighting there? they are KILLING THEMSELVES.....this is the way a warior who has ALREADY LOST fights.....
you have to admit that even Rumsfeld in moments of weakness (or whatever) has admitted that he misjudged...they expected to be welcomed like the liberators were in Italy at the end of WW2....NOT...
as far as sending help to indonesia? i don't like it much either (based on Islam's failures to police it's own nutcases), but, in order to make progress, someone always has to make the first step....we have an oportunity to "buy" some goodwill...it's a chance worth taking....
on the other hand you say we are making progress with certain other Isalmic countries? i don't see it...
that doesn't mean i disagree with you, but it's not very obvious in the news...
and quite frankly you must admit that the Christian fundamentalists are starting to get a little full of themselves as well...just a recipe for more (not less) war...
Art: Yes, the cold war was fought economically and politicaly, and we beat Russia, and the nuclear (M.A.D.) stalemate prevented a nuclear war (strength prevents aggression while weakness invites it).
Glassman: your predictions about the woulda and coulda in Iraq? are just that...
predictions and speculations...
Art: Yes but mine are most likely.
Glasman: i still maintain that we will need to be present in Iraq indefinitely...(i never predicted anything different, hence my opposition to entering at all)that said, i say we do what we went there to do, and do it right....i never suggested leaving is an option, nor have i been critical of the situation for moral reasons...i think some grave errors of logic/judgement have occurred based on serious cultural differences between us
Art: We will be there as long as our presence insures mideast stability. We will use that presence as leverage against Syria and Iran - our presence is quite useful and necessary.
Glasman: these people we are fighting there? they are KILLING THEMSELVES.....this is the way a warior who has ALREADY LOST fights.....
Art: So? People have been killing themselves since early on and will do it always.
Glassman:... even Rumsfeld in moments of weakness (or whatever) has admitted that he misjudged...they expected to be welcomed like the liberators were in Italy at the end of WW2....NOT...
Art: We were welcomed by most, and the majority of Iraqis are grateful for our presence and for what we are trying to do. We did encounter more resistance than we anticipated, and did not find the missing WMD, but they are hidden somewhere. This does not mean it was a mistake to invade.
Glassman: as far as sending help to indonesia? i don't like it much either (based on Islam's failures to police it's own nutcases), but, in order to make progress, someone always has to make the first step....we have an oportunity to "buy" some goodwill...it's a chance worth taking....
Art: It might payoff for us and thereby justify our help.
Glasman: on the other hand you say we are making progress with certain other Isalmic countries? i don't see it...
that doesn't mean i disagree with you, but it's not very obvious in the news...
Art: Syria and Iran are nervous over our presence in Iraq - either could be next. This presence will eventually help us nuclear disarm Iran and help us keep Syria from sponsoring terrorism. This alone justiifes the Iraq invasion. Saudi Arabia is now fighting Al-Qaeda and thus more closely allied with us. The Pallestinians are moving toward peace with Israel which, once achieved, will defuse the Arab hostility toward the U.S. Peace is braeking out in the mideast, starting with the Iraqi invasion by the U.S., and maintained by the U.S. military presence in Iraq. This will all become clearer in 2-3 years.
Glassman: and quite frankly you must admit that the Christian fundamentalists are starting to get a little full of themselves as well...just a recipe for more (not less) war...
Art: How is this a factor?
my concerns are that certain groups that believe in certain revelations will in fact do things that nobody would consider doing unless they believed in some form of divine intervention...
as a matter of fact they are already doing things that they wouldn't do otherwise...
Art: Reincarnation is neither good or bad - a material lifetime is good or bad according to the pleasure and pain, but it doesn't matter - a soul personality develops understanding with material experience, and thereby participates more in unity with the cosmic flow. Hitler, as well as the millions of Jews he killed, developed from the experience - became closer to the cosmic intelligence underlying matter.
Glassman: my concerns are that certain groups that believe in certain revelations will in fact do things that nobody would consider doing unless they believed in some form of divine intervention...
Art: Religious nuts, as well as other crazies, will always be unpredictable. They are developing from experience like all of us. Often this means killing or being killed.
quote:
Originally posted by Kate:
I'm sorry, but I don't believe in reincarnation! If it were true, we would be perfect by now, and have no problems, instead of everything continuing to get worse! We have only one life to live, according to God's Word!
We are perfect. We are part of all-that-is, or God, and it is perfect. Change does not denote imperfection. Immoral actions do not indicate imperfection. The universal flow, regulated by quantum computation (universal intelligence) is eternal, but ever changing. Matter is one form of expression of quantum computation but alternate universes exist outside of matter, and they interchange with matter, in the universal flow. As we live and learn in repeated incarnations we get more in tune with the universal intelligence of quantum computation and our non-material experience expands.
The material is a facade - an illusion created by perception. The material world blinks on and off, in quantum leaps, like frames of a movie flash on and off. We perceive the movie as moving but it is actualy a series of still frames flashing by - as is our holographic world. The world around you is not solid, as it appears. It is waves or energy vibrations conveying data which is perceived as material by our brains. When you touch an object you don't "touch" anything - the vibrations of the object communicate with our skin somatosensory vibrations. The radio no more touches the radio station transmitter tower than our skin touches the table - our skin as a radio picks up waves from the table, and we perceive this as one solid object touching another (which is an illusion).
God is the sum total of eternal energy vibrations in the universe, and we are a significant part of these vibrations.
i don't think it's binary, but you are very close....there's never an off, but there is otherness....
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
slow down Art, you have to lay a stronger foundation for statements like that to get thru....i don't think it's binary, but you are very close....there's never an off, but there is otherness....
Art: If there is never an off (and we can't tell since we go off with the rest of the universe) then the universe is continuous and not descrete. However, a continuous universe is an illusion. The quantum leap, quantum tunneling, teleportation, etc. show a simultaneous jump of particles from one position to another - disappearing and reappearing at the same instance, over vast space with teleportation, with no continuous movement between states or locations. The material universe is descrete - a continous reality is at its basis.
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
BTW Kate,none of this precludes Christianity...the idea of heaven as an alternate universe supports it even....
Religion puts morality as an ontological basis, and this is false. God is amoral. Morality exists, not as a part of God and not as emanating from God, but as an evaluation of incarnate personality. Morality does not otherwise exist in the universe, though religion falsely asserts that it does.
but i think we are extremely limited in our ability to experience the waveform that constitutes reality....
by definition a waveform changes direction but never goes off.
by the way, this means we have to chuck the big bang IMO
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
i think you are saying that our consciousness is binary...i agree...but i think we are extremely limited in our ability to experience the waveform that constitutes reality....
by definition a waveform changes direction but never goes off.by the way, this means we have to chuck the big bang IMO
I am saying material expression is descrete. A continuous and non-material reality is always on and supports material expression. Material expression pulses - in each pulse the material universe is reconfigured, and each pulse is a quantum leap.
A wave form could also pulse - we perceive and measure it as continouopus, as we perceive and measure movement of objects, but this is an illusion. Iyt is like watching a movie - descrete frames appear as continuous. The universe is a movie of atomic holograms. We don't have to chuck the big bang.
Read David Bohm.
what i am trying to add is that the "pulse" is really a change of angular momentum...
binary implies on or off...
the implications of being off leads to a less elegant answer.....
it would require re-creation over and over and over........
Kate...when Stephen Hawkin met the Pope the Pope told him it was OK to contemplate what has happened after the big bang, but not before
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
i have read some of Bohm...what i am trying to add is that the "pulse" is really a change of angular momentum...
binary implies on or off...the implications of being off leads to a less elegant answer.....
it would require re-creation over and over and over........
Kate...when Stephen Hawkin met the Pope the Pope told him it was OK to contemplate what has happened after the big bang, but not before
Art: The pulse on and off is more than a geometric change - this is an illusionary conceptual interpretation based on the material.
And yes, each material present, in a pulse on, is a recreation.
http://forums.about.com/ab-physics/messages/?start=Start+Reading+%3E%3E
1119.1
The essence of the universe is energy regulated by quantum computation in a continuous realm. This is a particle-less, space-less, and timeless realm. It is everywhere and nowhere simultaneously, where past, present, and future simultaneously co-exist. It can be called God.
When energy is configured in a wave function collapse, particlization and material existence results in a present (Now) of a quantum leap. This results in space since particles now exist in relation to one another, separated by space, as in a painting or photograph. When successive configurations result in successive quantum leaps, movement results as particles change position here in relation to one another. When movement is measured, owing to the regular rhythm of quantum leaps, then this yields an abstraction we call time. The regularity of quantum leaps is a universal clock of precipitation of material configurations of energy based on computation, from an interference of the past wave function collapses with the future wave function collapse possibilities (multiverse). The future is continually generated by God, in an infinite expansion, via quantum computation. Any material Now is somewhat of an illusion compared to its ontological basis in non-material processes. We participate in both realms, as does every particle, but as intelligent energy configurations, we also participate in the generation of the computation of the multiverse of possibilities. Our quantum computational processes are networked with all others, to comprise God ("If there is no God, then I am God" - Dostoevski). Actually we are not God, rather, God is us, and everything else.
Morality has no existence in this realm. Morality is a need fulfillment/failure evaluation of emotional considerations by an intellect capable of feeling, from a perspective of either self, or other, or both. The error of religion is to ontologically couple existence with morality. This was done for political reasons to garner power to religion.
Reality is an evaluation of existence, and can be a valid or invalid evaluation and description of existence to varying degrees. A description of existence is valid when it is based on valid inductions (intuitively constructed with conceptual assistance) that encompasses all the phenomena addressed.
Any description of existence that does not encompass paranormal (quantum, psychic, etc.) phenomena is of limited validity.
Materiality - an illusion of reality structured by the sensations and intellect of our holonomic brain that is focused on the holonomic universe. Art
My son looks at some of what you say, and shakes his head, and he is only 24!
It was when the Grinch who stole Christmas, was standing on his mountaintop, talking about how small his heart was! You all don't want to be like the Grinch do you? I believe that the Ghosts of Christmas Past, Present and Future, will be visiting some of you guys soon too!
quote:
Originally posted by Kate:
What delusion are you guys under? Do you have moles? Warts? All of your hair? too fat? too thin? illness? getting older? Since when are these things, "perfect?" Only God is perfect, and we are NOT God! I'm glad you guys have a lot of fun, with your scientific terms, I personally have other things more important to think about!
This is the best of all possible worlds, when you understand our existence's purpose and the role we play in the eternal scheme of things.
Your perfect world of no pain, no suffering or illness, and nothing but loving relationships would be a hell, if it could be actualized.
You will never understand what I am talking about.
i see an elegance to creation that inspires me to be better, but i also acknowledge the cruelty of creation...as you once told me, God commands wars.....why is a tsunami any different from a war?
Art, i haven't had time to read the threads, but i apreciate the link and i will...
quote:
Originally posted by Kate:
I think hell would be, no love at all, no light only darkness, constant agonizing pain, from burning flesh, and being totally alone!
True. Either pure pleasure or pure pain is hell. Pain is necessary for pleasure, evil for good. The shifts from one end of a dimension to the other, and back, is what makes for development, initiative, interest, complexity, etc. - as we have in this world.
This is the best of all possible worlds - a perfect school of experience for developing souls who didp in and out of incarnate existence to increase their wisdom of causality.
Souls reproduce in spliting off while remaining interconnected (entangled). At a basic level of existence all souls are in unity as One, or God.
quote:
Originally posted by Kate:
Maybe for THIS body, but not for the next! And I don't know who in their "right" mind, enjoys pain and suffering! It is to help us learn, not as an enjoyment, unless we are like Ted Bundy or someone like him!
Right! Pain and suffering, as well as pleasure, help us to learn.
We strive to eliminate pain and increase pleasure, in our selves and in those we love, and in doing so we learn - gain wisdom in understanding causal relations.
We will never eliminate pain and suffering - it will always exist in parity to pleasure and joy, both showing fluctuation around a mean value.
This is perfection in the material world - a parity of good and evil where both are good in the big picture. Hitler is as necessary to this process as Jesus Christ - both are equal and both are good.
What's the point of this? There is none other than the continual thought (quantum computation) of God to eternally produce ever changing non-material and material manifestations. Each soul, including the soul of the smallest sub-atomic particle, participates in this cosmic unfolding, as a part of God. Human personality is more complex and participates more fully than other things.
As we learn, we participate more intimately with the cosmic flow - become closer to God - and this is our individual purpose.
God love is a matter of degree. hopefully humanith can raise its consciousness and be closer to god.
I think that ultimately there is no evil , only god.
pain and evil are an illusion and only god is real.
when all is god then maybe we will have a big ban again and god experience begins agains rising to higher levels.
We all cocreate our reality. Those at higher levels can create cause material manifestations with more actualization.
and of course creation is unending.......
we have earht and tons of galaxies that all is linked.
so much to add on, but shared some thoughts.
I agree with art on some levels but disagree that you have to have pain.
Pain is there to help us learn but sufferin is unnecessary.
I know i reached a higher level of consciousness from who i was 10 + years ago and it is amazing at the different awareness i obtained.
I want to become more aware...
I am not bothered by as much and realize we all are conditioned.
When we become aware, we begin to create our lives and see its manifestation. The closer to god we are the caus effect is more apparent.
Art:
The ancient Greeks had opposing camps - one side thought the world was descrete and composed of atoms as separate units of existence. The other side said the universe was one single unified entity and that the universe was therefore continuous.
Zeno noted that if the universe were continuous, then a race runner would never reach the finish line since at any point in the race we could always measure half the distance to the finish (which would extend to infinity) - half of .00000004 of a millimeter, then half of that, then half of that, etc., would go on forever.
The classical world of Newton and Einstein is obviously descrete - things are separate with individual characteristics.
As we get into the quantum realm we see a unity among separate particles that are entangled - with instant communication across vast space, either forward or backward in time - we see a continuous universe that is one unit (God).
thinkmoney:
We all are here to learn love (god) and when we get there we come back to teach others.
Art: Morality is based in love, and love is an instinctively based need to promote survival. Love of self promotes individual survival, love of kin promotes offspring survival, and love of neighbor promotes one's in-group survival. We are here to fulfill all needs, not just the need to love. It is just as important for us to kill each other as to care for each other, and we do both in abundance.
thinkmoney: We all may have many incarnations before we are in unity with god but jesus was god in one incarnation.
Art: Jesus was a man with a terribly flawed moral philosophy. His followers promoted him in order to gain power in an expanding religious movement. His virgin birth and reports of his miracles were popular ideas that people believed of many others - a way to give Jesus prestige and sell his religion, again to gain power on the part of his adherents - there is money and prestige in religion leadership positions, if the religion is popular. Other admired people of the BC and early AD era were said to be from a virgin birth, such as Alexander the great. There were other messiahs at the time - Pointus Pilate killed one after he killed Jesus, along with thousands of his followers, and Rome finally got fed up with his cruel tendency to crucify and kill Jews and Summarians (and others) and stripped him of power (he then committed suicide). The bible falsely paints a sympathetic picture of Pilate, to blame Jesus' death on the Jews. Pilate was in fact a cuel leader with a compulsion to kill. He wanted to kill Jesus, and would have killed all Christians if he was not bothered about the poilitical fallout from this.
thinkmoney: God love is a matter of degree. hopefully humanity can raise its consciousness and be closer to god.
Art: God has nothing to do with love or morality - such ideas are delusional projections based in our dependency need for a parent to guide and care for us, to love us, and even punish us when we go against their wishes. As adults we long for the childhood where we had a God (in the form of our parents), and reinstate that in religious beliefs.
thinkmoney:... but I disagree that you have to have pain. Pain is there to help us learn but suffering is unnecessary.
Art: You can't eliminate suffering unless you eliminate pain. A world without pain and its state of suffering would be hell for any intelligent life in it. You would be in unchanging euphoria, and would satiate and live in a boredom of no change.
All intelligent life would cease to exist - in fact it would never had evolved beyond a plant stage.
Your perfect world is no world at all - void of any intelligent life - containing only plants and some microbes.
suffering can be eliminated but pain i think is here for us to learn to grow until we reach a god consciousness and for me that is love.
Yes, In my heart i know we are here to learn love or whatever you call positive energy.
We choose whether we are negative or positive and that is the energy we enamate.
But, so many give off negative energy without awareness ...due to conditioned evolution. sufferin is uneccessary...Example...a child thatis abuse..give alot of negative energy..told child is ugly, stupid ,and etc...no good...
this child who grows up suffers due to a conditioned image of oneself..I talked to many abused children..the pain is real and so is the suffering. However, if the child can grown and learn that the abus it was given is not because the child is no good, etc.. but because of the emotional anguish of the perpetrator, then the child can learn and be conditioned that it is a child of god. Summed up child learns love and is aware why abused. Learns to forgive because the abuser was not aware and mentally sick.
This child can eliminate suffering and use pain as a gauge to cocreate the word.
Pain tell s us we are away from positive energy..god..love..hatever we call it...when we move closer to god we can avoid pain.
Now, I realize that your mentality does not have this perception but I dont share yours and I see cocreation in my life and know of first hand experiences how changing our thoughts can change our experiences...
Apparently, there are different views and truth is in the heart.
If we seek truth, i feel we will find it.
Art: How do you distinguish pain and suffering?
thinkmoney: In my heart i know we are here to learn love or whatever you call positive energy.
Art: You are thinking with emotion - delusional productions. Positive energy is that accompanying pleasure, and pleasure comes from need fulfillment, whether loving or killing or what ever. You just want to get off - we all do. Call it love or hate or whatever - it reduces to need fulfillment either of our selves or of those we care for (kin, neighbors, nation or world). Those who love unconditionally are fools - a wise love is based on reciprocation. We should help those in our nation only when this enbles them to contribute to the nation in the future - otherwise ignore or kill them when they are parasites who take from others without returning (criminals, incompetents, etc.).
thinkmoney: We choose whether we are negative or positive and that is the energy we enamate.
Art: Nothing occurs in the physical universe without some prior causal communication - nothing can emerge from nothing - everything is determined and free will is an illusion.
thinkmoney: But, so many give off negative energy without awareness ...due to conditioned evolution. sufferin is uneccessary...Example...a child that is abused..gives off alot of negative energy..told child is ugly, stupid ,and etc...no good...this child who grows up suffers due to a conditioned image of oneself..I talked to many abused children..the pain is real and so is the suffering. However, if the child can grown and learn that the abus it was given is not because the child is no good, etc.. but because of the emotional anguish of the perpetrator, then the child can learn and be conditioned that it is a child of god. Summed up child learns love and is aware why abused. Learns to forgive because the abuser was not aware and mentally sick.
This child can eliminate suffering and use pain as a gauge to cocreate the word.
Pain tell s us we are away from positive energy..god..love..hatever we call it...when we move closer to god we can avoid pain.
Art: Good point. What you describe is the power of cognitive change to realign deep emotion/motivation to achieve a more positive structuring of emotional/motivational processes. If we were truly wise, we would understand all, and would accept the pain we experienced as a necessary and ultimately good part of the cosmic flow (God). We would stil experience the pain, and try to eliminate it, but we would not wallow in self pity and would understand and accept it. If we are injured by an earthquake, we would adapt and move on and not dwell on the injustice.
thinkmoney: Apparently, there are different views and truth is in the heart.
If we seek truth, i feel we will find it.
Art: Truth is in existence and approached through inferential and inductive understanding causal relations. It is a matter of computation and not feeling.
I look at the world as a collective creation..god..and on this plane earth. what we see is what we perceive and our illusion and creation...sometimes hard to seperate. All is created out of nothing.. In stillneess is ONE where we all can reach god and create. It is in nothing that all is created and manifested into our various realities that in the end maybe illusional.
Computations, science, thinking all serve to explain parts of reality but life is not scientific. It is created, an art....we can try to explain by reason, science and that serves some benefit but ultimately an infinite posssibilities cannot be computed. It is in the heart because that is where all creation stems.
By knowing something true in our heart can we create. Thinking is illusional but the heart is where we find truth.
A good example...if someone I love is in immediate danger, i will not compute. i will know instantly what to do. But maybe you will compute and reason.
Best way I explain is that the reason aspect serves its purpose but life is a mystery and can not be explained..
Have a great day all.. time for me to go home soon.......
Art: Yes, I saw your ecxample and then understood your distinction between pain and suffering. You seem to think pain is a physically (sensory) based feeling, while suffering is the result of perception (interpretation of stimuli and personality products, where this interpretation is greatly influenced by cognition).
thinkmoney: I look at the world as a collective creation..god..and on this plane earth. what we see is what we perceive and our illusion and creation...sometimes hard to seperate. All is created out of nothing..
Art: Something from nothing? Impossible fantasy.
Something material from something non-material? Absolutely true.
What is this something non-material?
It has two components - a non-material energy, perhaps from vibrating strings, and thought or intelligence from computation at a quantum level of entanglement (timeless, spaceless, everything is continuous in a unity). This quantum computation is God, and it regulates non-material energy to manifest as physical particles and physical energy.
thinkmoney: In stillneess is ONE where we all can reach god and create. It is in nothing that all is created and manifested into our various realities that in the end maybe illusional.
Art: True, if interpreted in my terms of quantum computation, in which we can particiapte in our individual thought.
thinkmoney: Computations, science, thinking all serve to explain parts of reality but life is not scientific.
Art: Yes, science and math (and logical deductive thought) can deal with the material, and only induce aspects of the non-material. The non-material is the true reality while the material is an illusionary facade.
thinkmoney:...we can try to explain by reason, science and that serves some benefit but ultimately an infinite posssibilities cannot be computed. It is in the heart because that is where all creation stems.
Art: Emotional/motivational impulses in the unconscious are the source of creative thinking, but this is psychotic production unless molded properly by non-verbal (perceptual) and verbal (conceptual). The analogue in the universe is non-material energy that must be molded by quantum computation that conforms to laws of causality to manifest matter.
thinkmoney: By knowing something true in our heart can we create. Thinking is illusional but the heart is where we find truth.
Art: But psychotic (delusional) truth.
thinkmoney: A good example...if someone I love is in immediate danger, i will not compute. i will know instantly what to do. But maybe you will compute and reason.
Art: No, you are computing, but unconsciously. We are only conscious of the outputs of unconscious computation - the major thought processes are outside of awareness. Sometimes a solution comes into our awareness as if from nowhere, even though we may have been unconsciously thinking on it for long periods. It seems to us that we thought of it instantly though. Sometimes we become aware of the steps to a solution in a step-by-step manner, while remaining unaware of the unconscious processes involved in producing each step toward a solution. This procesing in unawareness can be in terms of microseconds - we only become aware of the fruits of it and not the process in its entireity.
quote:
Originally posted by thinkmoney:
Also, i know there are angels but angels cant be explained scientifucally. angels or some good force........
Art: Yes, apparations do exist and can influence matter via quantum computation (thought). This sometimes can be good influences (angels) as well as bad (demons). Apparitions have been observed to assist people as well as attack people, physically, but normally just appear without acknowledging living people at all.
This can be demonstrated in the lab by a phenomena called a quantum mirage, as well as by demonstrations of psychokinesis (mind over matter).
quote:
Originally posted by Kate:
I'm sorry, but I don't believe in reincarnation! If it were true, we would be perfect by now, and have no problems, instead of everything continuing to get worse! We have only one life to live, according to God's Word!
Ian Stevenson, a psychiatrist who does research at the Univ. of Virginia, has written several books about his research into reincarnation.
For instance, the case of Shanti Devi was investigated many years ago. Shanti Devi was born in Delhi in 1926. When she was four years old she made a startling declaration to her family: "This is not my real home! I have a husband and a son in Mathura! I must return to them!"
The young girl was able to provide many details of her past life, including descriptions of her previous home and family in Mathura.
At the prompting of Mahatma Gandhi, a team of researchers was put together to examine her claims. According to reincarnation expert Dr. Ian Stevenson, Shanti Devi's past life memories matched the facts uncovered by the panel's investigation.
Swedish journalist, Sture Lonnerstrand, also looked into the case of Shanti Devi. After an extensive investigation he concluded, "This is the only fully explained and proven case of reincarnation there has been."
Thought is energy and creates. Your thoughts are your reality and possibly delusional. I say that because you come from a position of rigidity and I no longer care to continue your delusion.
I quest for knowledge and after being exposed your thoughts, dispose of them and only retain those that are true for me...........
You must be a man, where all has to be computed...
Art: Only 4 percent of the universe is matter. Most is empty and non-physical: dark matter and dark renergy.
The term empty only aplies to matter - the non-material is infinite, without space or time, and simultaneously empty and full, no where and every where.
thinkmoney: Thought is energy and creates.
Art: Thought regulates energy but not by energy emanations. Poltergist activity is an example. The brain could move mountains but not be generating the energy to do so. It would all be done by generating thought that could play a sufficient influence in universal quantum computation.
thinkmoney: Your thoughts are your reality and possibly delusional.
Art: Your thoughts create your experience, but this may be real or not. The psychotic's experince is not mine, and yours is not mine - which is why we disagree.
Also, since I've seen physical miracles, like people being healed, etc, with my own eyes, 'no scientific explanation needed or possible' and have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, I will keep praying for you!
I dont think anyone has the answers but thought moves energy and ideas you expressed are in the collective psyche.
what works for me is when I see creation in progress. When I feel closer to god the more apparent is creation. For example, I know my hair will turn blonde, if I know it, i feel it will regardless of any logical explanations. This example is outlandish but used for illustration.
I also use my awareness to create but let go because the universe will do better than me and I often am astonished how this works.
At one point, being fixed gave frustration but having intent and letting go is astonishing when you see the results.
anyways, your input is appreciated because some ideas i share but I interpret differently.
Art: The material world is descrete and thus can be described mathematically or conceptually (math is based in logic).
Any ontological discussion of the material world has to be computational (logical and empirical). Any theory of the non-material (dark matter and energy) ontological basis of the material, has to be in logical terms, but based on inference and induction from observations and knoweledge of the material. This enables us to think and communicate logically about a non-material existence that is not logical. We can thus talk of a timeless and spaceless dimension, where an event is simultaneously no where and everywhere, but we use logical terms like 'time' and 'space' and 'where' event in a way that is illogical. We never abandon conmputational thought even when talking about things not subject to computation.
My language is logical, though based on speculative inferences and inductions from a knowledge of quantum and psychic/paranormal events.
Your language is poetic, and poetry is logic adulterated by distorted (delusional bordering) thought. Kate's religious thinking is more overtly delusional. Both yours and Kate's ideas have some partial validity, and more importantly, have heuristic value - they provide you with meaning in trying to understand life and are therefore useful.
thinkmoney...I dont think anyone has the answers but thought moves energy and ideas you expressed are in the collective psyche.
Art: Again, if thought gave off energy to make things happen, we could measure it in some way. Thought can sometimes regulate non-material (dark) energy that can be communicated in the material, but thought does not send out energy to objects to move them - it can sometime move them via information communications at the basis of matter. The basis of existence is information (data), generated in universal quantum communication, that underlies material events.
thinkmoney: what works for me is when I see creation in progress. When I feel closer to god the more apparent is creation. For example, I know my hair will turn blonde, if I know it, i feel it will regardless of any logical explanations. This example is outlandish but used for illustration.
Art: No matter how much you know or feel your hair will turn blonde it will only do so if your thought can influence the universal quantum computation sufficiently to cause it to do so. Some (rare) people can move objects at times. One case (John Becker) had it rain on him and his immediate are at times - indoors. Real water fell and no one knew where it came from. Plotergeist activity of object moving is well recorded. Mind ove matter is possible, but extremely rare. Control of behavior, attitudes and feelings, by the way you think, is available to anyone (though some understanding of how to do it is needed), and as you have stated, can alleviate suffering. There is no denying the power of positive thinking.
Art, back to the pulses? if the universe is binary and it is destroyed and re-created over and over where is the data stored?
quote:
Originally posted by Kate:
Doesn't Art, sound just like Spock? Totally logical, without human emotions!
Kate, in Art's defense? (not that he can't defend himself) my deduction is that Art is actually so in tune with "reality" that he is forced to "defend" himself by being this way...
remember he stated that everything is connected? that is correct...everything is connected, and if one does not set up filters, one becomes "paralysed" by the amount of data one receives.
as far as re-incarnation? it is optional.....a kind God would allow for this
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
so Kate as you were re-reading, did you detect my sarcasm?Art, back to the pulses? if the universe is binary and it is destroyed and re-created over and over where is the data stored?
The present is the atomically constituted hologram that represents the interference precipitate of the past and future. The past is stored, and the multiverse future is generated as wave encoded in the basic vibrations of existence, perhaps as strings. These vibrations serve as data points in quantum computation, where simultaneous processing occurs. Past vibrations, of all past material universes, merge with vibrations computed as future possibilites, to produce a material present in a pulse on.
Not only the past, but the future, can be brought into a present, on a limited encapsulated basis, to produce excursions into the past or from the future. See Jenny Randles book, Time Storms.
my interpretation is that we are just unable to perceive the tensor(vector squared).....
we are only able to verify/perceive vectors...
that is what i meant by never being "off"...so the hologram is never really pulsing, it is we who are pulsing......
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited January 05, 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Kate:
Doesn't Art, sound just like Spock? Totally logical, without human emotions!
My depth of emotion likely surpasses that of anyone on this forum. I write beautiful love poems, and yes, I donate to the Salvation Army sending money by mail to them on aregular basis.
However, I don't let need or emotion intrude into my ideas of reality, such as what exists and how it is processed. My emotion is expressed creatively, not in my scientific ideas.
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
so the quantum wave never FULLY collapses?
if so i misunderstood.
my interpretation is that we are just unable to perceive the tensor(vector squared).....
we are only able to verify/perceive vectors...
that is what i meant by never being "off"...so the hologram is never really pulsing, it is we who are pulsing......[This message has been edited by glassman (edited January 05, 2005).]
Collapase of the wave function represents the actualization of one among possible collapses. The possibilities are subatomic state possibities where the collpase is the state actualized. The possibilities, in uncollapsed superposition, are the future - the multiverse. The collpase is the material present of one possibility that is actualized in the wave function collapse. The past is all wave function collapses, all actualized states, that have ever occurred as material presents.
Vibrations, or waves, carry data. Phase of a wave is a function of frequency and amplitiude which carry data. The brain perceives sound or visual waves in a holographic domain, while the eye or ear transform this data like a lens focuses on film, in sensation. This data is then transformed back in phase encoded data, and memory stored. The data is retrieved and transformed from holographic memory stored form, to focused form, in memory reconstruction. See Karl Pribrum. The point is that waves or vibrations carry data, and the interference of this precipitated data is the result of a data computational process.
The pulse on is hologramic interference which precipitates the material present. Between such pulses is the pulse off in which nothing material exists, and the new future is merging with the past to produce a new present. The quantum leap is the jump from one pulse on to another pulse on - the electron does not move continuously from one orbit to another, it dissappears from one orbit and simultaneously reappears in another orbit - teleported in fact. It makes a leap from one descrete position to another. Everything moves in such descrete steps - things only appear to move continuously in a smooth motion.
quote:
Originally posted by Upside:
Interesting thread here. In my younger days I used to have thoughts like these too.... but then I quit taking windowpane.
well i guess i should be insulted upside....after all i am the glassman kookookachoo
if i close my eyes is the universe/multiverse gone? NO
the law conservation of energy prohibits that..
i suggest that we are still missing the basic building block of the universe...whatever it is that makes space up...
like a fish that doesn't know it's in water....
obviously electrons can interect DIRECTLY with this building block......
when i said that we (humans) are thinking in vectorsas opposed to tensors, i mean this....light waves are not just up and down, they are spiral.......it's more dimensions
Great little book ...
basically the implications are that the universe is harmonious.....
his relativity theories do a good job as far as they go, but they do not do a good job of explaining the here and NOW...just what was and what will be....
now, if we can just come up with that monitor that has tomorrows trades on it
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited January 05, 2005).]
if i close my eyes is the universe/multiverse gone? NO
the law conservation of energy prohibits that..
Art: The universe is gone, and you with it along with all things, between descrete quantum state changes. We never know it is gone since we are gone with it. The off states could be trillions of years long in material time, and we would bnever know it since we don't exist. Everything picks up where it left off when the universe blinks on again, and no gap is noticed or measured in any way - clocks don't run in an off state since there are no clocks or anything else.
Conservation of energy applies only to on states - science only deals with on states.
glassman: when i said that we (humans) are thinking in vectorsas opposed to tensors, i mean this....light waves are not just up and down, they are spiral.......it's more dimensions
Art: Light waves don't exist in off states. Geometry doesn't exist in off sates. Particles, physical waves, space and time don't exist in off states. Nothing material or materially related exists in off states.
i understand what you mean Art, but i suggest that it doesn't turn off,
but,that we are "seeing" the peaks and valleys of the waves, and the we are not capable of seeing the "rest" of it because it's aspect is alien to us....it's never off....it's just at different "angles" from our "experience" that's "when" the other multiverses get to "be"
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
one last reply tonight...i understand what you mean Art, but i suggest that it doesn't turn off,
but,that we are "seeing" the peaks and valleys of the waves, and the we are not capable of seeing the "rest" of it because it's aspect is alien to us....it's never off....it's just at different "angles" from our "experience" that's "when" the other multiverses get to "be"
How do you explain the quantum leap where the electron disappears from one orbit and simultaneously reappears in another orbit without moving across orbits, or quantum tunneling where a particle dissapears and simultaneously reappears on the other side of a barrier without going through the barrier, or teleportation of a particle across vast space instantly, or time slips where people step into the past or future for some time, then come back, or disappearnces of people who vanish right in front of witnesses?
Particles are reconfigured in successive descrete steps - nothing moves, it just repositions slightly and unnoticeably from one frame to the next in quantum leaps.
quote:
Originally posted by Art:
How do you explain the quantum leap where the electron disappears from one orbit and simultaneously reappears in another orbit without moving across orbits, or quantum tunneling where a particle dissapears and simultaneously reappears on the other side of a barrier without going through the barrier, or teleportation of a particle across vast space instantly, or time slips where people step into the past or future for some time, then come back, or disappearnces of people who vanish right in front of witnesses?Particles are reconfigured in successive descrete steps - nothing moves, it just repositions slightly and unnoticeably from one frame to the next in quantum leaps.
i'm not sure it's considered good form to go beyond previouly published ideas on an internet BB Art....remember humpty-dumpty...
ok, why not...it is probably published and i just don't know..
the latest catch-phrase is quantum foam....
stop looking at the particles and look at the medium they "move" thru....
the shape of "space" cannot be "seen"... time,for us, does not flow thru the full amount of space, our time only flows across certain portions of it...these portions represent our "limited" perceptions of space...
the electrons, as they move thru space, are moving thru a much more complicated set of coordinates than we can perceive, but during the majority of their travel, they are out our universe, and in others(other parts of the multi-verse)....
even more important, space itself is what enforces the conservation of energy, because, it IS the energy....
quote:
Originally posted by Kate:
Art, I don't doubt that you have emotion, but I doubt if it is as great as mine, since you've said that you only care about the people you choose yourself, that encompasses a very small number! I choose to care for everyone, and that includes my enemies! I am only able to do this, with the Holy Spirit, which is something you will never understand! No scientific data will ever replace God! His love, allows me to care about YOU! It allows me to care enough to grieve for those who were affected by the tidal wave! It allows me to care about the Iraqi people; even the terrorists! Love isn't a weakness, it is a strength! It hurts, and it heals! It isn't something you can study with scientific equipment, because it is an emotion! Being a "good" person, isn't enough! Anyone can do good things; even the most ruthless murderer. The Bible is being fulfilled! The hurricanes, volcanos, earthquakes and Tsunami, are just the beginning! God is at work, even in these tragedies! If you want to do some research, check out how many storms we've been having over the last ten years, compared to before! Check out the earthquakes! We can expect more!
It's about time God started killing people - the earth is much too populated with humans.
You love everyone, and this will reward those who would hurt or exploit you, so they will go on to hurt and exploit many others. Your love thus encourages evil and is evil. I don't love those who would hurt or exploit - I hate them and would try to eliminate them from my nation. I love only those who contribute to me, my kin, or my country. Those who would take away from, or hurt, me, my kin, or my nation, are not loved by me, and often are hated by me instead.
Just because you love inappropriately does not mean you have more emotion - it means your emotion is misguided and lacking in discrimination - a fool's emotion.
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
i'm not sure it's considered good form to go beyond previouly published ideas on an internet BB Art....remember humpty-dumpty...
ok, why not...it is probably published and i just don't know..
the latest catch-phrase is quantum foam....
stop looking at the particles and look at the medium they "move" thru....the shape of "space" cannot be "seen"... time,[b]for us, does not flow thru the full amount of space, our time only flows across certain portions of it...these portions represent our "limited" perceptions of space...
the electrons, as they move thru space, are moving thru a much more complicated set of coordinates than we can perceive, but during the majority of their travel, they are out our universe, and in others(other parts of the multi-verse)....even more important, space itself is what enforces the conservation of energy, because, it IS the energy....
[/B]
Originally posted by Art:
How do you explain the quantum leap where the electron disappears from one orbit and simultaneously reappears in another orbit without moving across orbits, or quantum tunneling where a particle dissapears and simultaneously reappears on the other side of a barrier without going through the barrier, or teleportation of a particle across vast space instantly, or time slips where people step into the past or future for some time, then come back, or disappearnces of people who vanish right in front of witnesses?
Particles are reconfigured in successive descrete steps - nothing moves, it just repositions slightly and unnoticeably from one frame to the next in quantum leaps.
it is a strobic effect.....
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
stop looking at the particles and look at their environment.....it is a strobic effect.....
Fine. How does the environment of particles produce paranormal effects. How do you explain the quantum leap where the electron disappears from one orbit and simultaneously reappears in another orbit without moving across orbits, or quantum tunneling where a particle dissapears and simultaneously reappears on the other side of a barrier without going through the barrier, or teleportation of a particle across vast space instantly, or time slips where people step into the past or future for some time, then come back, or disappearnces of people who vanish right in front of witnesses?
Particles are reconfigured in successive descrete steps - nothing moves, it just repositions slightly and unnoticeably from one frame to the next in quantum leaps.
Art: The universal quantum computational process (God) doesn't love or hate. Aspects of that process, in individual personalities (both carnate and incarnate) do love and hate and do act in angelic ways and in demonic ways. We are not filfilling God's will by always loving everyone - we thereby fail to learn from experience and remain stagnant in our soul development, in being a fool.
Kate: He teaches us to love one another, as he loves us.
Art: No, you "get off" on loving others and become a complusive lover of humanity. You selfishly pursue your compulsion and justify it with delusions of a God that wants you to engage in your compulsion. I am starting a new religion for sexual compulsives - the God of this religion wants us to have sex as often and with as many people as we can, regardless of the consequences to self or others. This is less evil than your religion of loving everyone and thereby encouraging their evil, and you find heaven on earth with my religion.
Kate: It isn't the terrorists fault, that he doesn't know any better, because he doesn't know the truth that will set him free, just as it isn't yours!
Art: Blame is an evaluation that assesses causality for pain, frustration, suffering, etc. Regardless of why the terrorist kills, if they kill innocent people or those who your care, they are properly blamed for evil. You can love them and send them money - not me.
Kate: You can't blame a baby for doing what is wrong, when he hasn't learned the difference; so it is with people, in God's eyes!
Art: Yes, unconditional love is appropriate for the infant, but not for the child or for anyone else. Conditional love (and hate) is appropriate for other than the infant. You should love only those who in some way contribute or help, now or in the future, either you, your kin or your nation - conditional love, and reject or hate eveyone else. This is wise love that discourages evil and promotes good. We are not our brother's keeper - our brother is responsible for himself. That makes our brother act in good ways to help himself or others. Providing unconditionally for our brother or anyone else will destroy them - make them dependent and lazy, and encourage them to be evil.
Kate: REAL love, is never evil!
Art: Only if provided conditionally, as deserved.
Kate: If people would care enough about others, as they do for their own selves, we wouldn't have any problems! Think about it!
Art: Liberal idealistic BS - that will never, ever happen. There will always be situations forcing you to choose between self or others, and loving others means hating your self, and loving your self means hating others. Hate is as necessary as love, will alwys remain in parity to love, and in the final analysis is as good as love.
Kate: Personally, I look forward to living in a world without problems, and war, and hate, and darkness, and looking forward to living in a world with total love, continuous learning, joy, and peace!
Art: You are describing a drug trip of pure pleasure, except for the loving and learning part, and both loving and learning involve pain and suffering, and neither can occur without pain and suffering.
Kate: What you are saying to me, is that my caring for you as a person, is evil!
Art: You don't care for me since you argue against me, and at the moment of doing so, you hate me in a very mild way. Now this hate is mixed with love, since you are trying to set my thinking straight and thereby help me. So this is moral hate or hate based in love. This is the same as when you punish a child for running out into the street - in punishing the child you show hate, but it is based in love that wants to protect the child from harm. A hate fre wporld is impossible - a world without any discipline or teaching for example.
Kate: Hmmmmm! Strange! Would you like me better, if I hated you, and wanted to hurt and destroy you?
Art: I would like you if you could send me money.
Kate: I'm sorry, but your emotions are misguided Art! You go and take a poll, and see how many people think love is evil, when it doesn't pertain to themselves! I bet you are in the smallest minority with your thinking!
Art: That would confirm the validity of my views - if most agreed with me I would likely be wrong.
Kate: That is what is wrong with the world! People don't give love, and they won't accept love! They only think about themselves! That is the definition of the word, "selfish"
Art: What is wrong with the world is ignorance and stupidity. Selfishness "is", and what is is fine. The problem is that selfishness is often best served by selflessness in helping (loving) others. We should thus be loving as it serves our best interests (actually, the best interests of our genes in seeking continued membership in the human gene pool). Our best selfish interests are served, as I have said, when we wisely love and hate on a conditional basis - helping those who contribute or reciprocate to us, our kin, or our nation, hating those who take from or exploit us, our kin, or our nation. This is the true morality that is consistent with enhancing human soul development.
your theories are not incorrect.....
and of course the Theory Of Everything is still incomplete...
i personally do not like to use the terms multi-verse/universe, but that is what we are stuck with right now...i prefer to think in terms of OUR part of the universe, and other parts.
our consciousness is limited to OUR part of the universe....
quote:
Originally posted by Kate:
My oh my,, my son when he was small, ran out into the street, and scared the crap out of me, and my love for him, never turned to hate! I was scared for his life, and angry that he had disobeyed me! Anger is different than hate, Art! Where do you come up with this stuff? And how do you know, that you aren't "wrong?" Maybe you are wrong, and I am right!
I am not saying you felt hate for your son, but only that in disciplining him, you ezpressed hate motivation, where the motivational processes are unconscious. You may have spanked him or yelled at him, and this was an aggressive response - a hate reponse. Sure it was born of love, but we can be aggressive out of love when it is for the person's own good. This is hate - aggression - motivated by love - a moral hate.
But love is imperfect in this world so all love is matter of degree. I will even use perfect mental health as synomous with love. When we are god, then we have perfect love. But all on earth are here to learn love.
All lessons here are to learn love.
Anger is negative and not love. I may love my kids but when I get angry at them i am displaying my issues. I am away from love or god.
When i get angry, I am aware it is issues within me. All negative emotion is a reflection of who we are.. If I get angry it is because I have issues and unfortunately my anger is taken on someone else. Actually, yelling is abuse.
If a child steps put on the street, I may shout but not yell. And get to child and remove then discipline in a positive way. An angry person may say, you bad boy, or how stupid you are..all abusive.. a loving response could be...mom loves you so much and you stepping out scared mom.. It is danger ..very firm talk but no anger.
when we use anger, we are not being loving.
Howevr, to be fair, who on earth is perfect?
we are created perfect like the creator but we have separated and lost that. Our essence is perfection but our will makes imperfect choices. As we move closer to god, we are more loving.
I find funny when folks say anger is loving..NEVER is anger love. But again to be fair, I am human and I am not perfect..learning love.. Those that are most angry and most abusive are those that have alot of hate, turn that hate and anger unto others or themselves. They abuse others and/or themselves. Those that have anger and hate turn inwards onto themselves or ooutwards onto others. How many folks use alcohol, addiction,etc..anger a turned onto onesef..yelling, hate, violence, etc..anger onto others. Neither is love only hate and reflection of who we are, how unaware we are.
Those that are more aware will be aware that any anger are issues within oneself that need attention to grow and become better people, hence closer to love/god.
For me god is unity..love..positive energy...
dengue and malaria carrying mosquitoes bite innocent babies too....
these obstacles were meant to teach us something....
quote:Art: Yes, they are here to teach us something - a lesson from God - kill or be killed.
Originally posted by glassman:
i like the idea of God being love, but the more i learn about creation, the more i relaise that the Creator left us a few nasties to deal with....lions and tigers are just the start...
dengue and malaria carrying mosquitoes bite innocent babies too....
these obstacles were meant to teach us something....
quote:You and Kate are thinking in terms of conscious interpretation - you discipline out of love only in this interpretation. However, popular conscious interpretation is often in error.
Originally posted by thinkmoney:
you got it wrong art..so much..
Ill answer one...your menaing of discipline apparently ties it o punishment..which is negative and old school.
My meaning of discipline implies guidance and positive.
quote:And if the environment doesn't bring it out, it is not there inside - in most cases - so the environment does create it. There is endogenous anger that will be expressed regardles of the environment one is in - we say such people are just born mean - but this is infrequent.
Originally posted by thinkmoney:
anger is not created by the environment. the environment can bring out anger that is already in us.
quote:True in many cases, but not in many other cases. There are as many problems caused by expressing anger too much, or having too much anger, as there are in not expressing anger, or not having enough. Here we have to ask "problems for who - self or others?" since my anger expression is often great for me but hard on others.
Originally posted by thinkmoney:
art..take a look at those that are angry...usually torn inside and not happy.
Those in anger have no peace.
quote:No, that is shaping desired behavior - not disciplining for undesired behavior - a world of difference. Teaching is disciplining when it involves correction, but is shaping desired behavior when it only rewards correct behavior. Rewarding behavior that is incompatible with undesired behavior is likewise not disciplining. Give me a true example of discipline and I will show you the hate-motivated punishment involved.
Originally posted by thinkmoney:
An example of discipline where no punishment? Are you for real?
An example would be to praise wanted behavior. When you praise wanted behavior it is disciplining children a certain way..
.Darling..you were wonderful in helping your sister. the child feels good and is given discipline.
quote:Both you and Kate tend to use overgeneralized abstractions - lacking in realistic discrimination. A mild form of thought disorder. An example is your idea that shaping desired behavior with reward alone is discipline - your abstract category of 'discipline' is too generalized and should not include shaping with reward only. Shaping with reward does instill desired behabvior but discipline is a response against undesired behavior.
Originally posted by thinkmoney:
dont put me in same category as Kate, kate is programmed religiously. and, I am not religious, spiritual yes but not religious.
quote:Our experience and behavior is a marriage of intellect (creative, non-verbal, and conceptual) and innate impulses as positively and negatively reinforced. With sufficient reinforcenment these married processes become conditioned in our bank of verbal and non-verbal knowledge.
Originally posted by thinkmoney:
we are all conditioned by the environmnet but anger is a result of negative conditioning. Also, anger is innate as well as environmntal.
quote:Hate is as good as love - both are absolutely necessary and must be maintained in parity. Everything feeds on everything else and hate-aggression is the driving force for such exploitation, necessary for survival and development. In fact, hate is more vital here than love - we could have life and development without love but not without hate. There would be no life on earth with love only - nothing would eat anything else for one thing. You might think that humans could do fine without hate but they never would have evolved, and if evolved, could never survive.
Originally posted by thinkmoney:
no hate is good. But this earht is imperfect so hate resides as well as love. there is good and evil....
quote:[B]Hate or aggression is a motivation expressed primarily in exclusion (rejection), domination and/or destruction. All needs are instinctively based as elaborated by intelect in the process of conditioning. You can not separate instinctive needs from learned needs. Even one cell organisms, without a nervous system or brain, exhibit learning. To seek, control and devour food is a basic survival mechanism that involves a basic hate-aggresion motivation and is found in all living things. Even the Sunflower in turning to the sun to obtain fuel for photosynthesis could be described as aggressively seeking and taking in food at a very basic level. The Sunflower robs photons from the grass with which it competes, while the grass robs moisture from the soil to deny it to the Sunflower - a deadly life or death struggle. Countless life and death struggles are aggresively played out each second - some with more learning than others, all innately based. [B]
Originally posted by thinkmoney:
a survivor need is not hate.. it is a biologiical need.
hate is a learned response.
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
when she folds my clothes nice and neatly in my drawer, and i always need the socks on the bottom, so i mess them up ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:So in getting your socks and messing up the folding you are loving your self (fulfilling your own needs) while hating yur wife (causing her failure in her need fulfillment). Show love for your wife and cut your feet off - problem solved. See how logical thinking, without emotion, solves problems?
Originally posted by glassman:
my wife HATES it
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
if i don't give her something irrelevant to get mad about once in a while, she'll find something real to get mad about on her own....
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Art, you say I don't care about you, because I don't agree with you! Duh? Do you always agree with your wife? Does that cause you to not care for her? As for virgins being in heaven, since you don't believe in it anyway, what good would it do you? The Bible says we won't know each other in that way in heaven. That means no sex! We won't need it anymore! The human mind, can't comprehend that! They would much rather go against God's Word, and commit adultery, for earthly pleasure, meanwhile, causing hurt to their spouse and childen, catching all kinds of diseases, and messing up peoples minds! I'm sorry Art, I will keep praying for you! And, oh yes, I do believe in discipline, because I believe in God's Word, and he says that it is right to discipline our children, so they won't end up in hell! No, that doesn't mean beat them to death, but discipline them. I was disciplined, and it did'nt hurt me! Of course, I know you would disagree! Someday, if all of the people who have claimed to be true Christians, disappear off the face of the earth, in what is called the rapture, I pray that you will remember what I've told you!
As for criticizing you, I try not to ever do that, but I am human, and I'm sorry if I hit the wrong words sometimes, but I do care about you all, as people, and want the best for you!
)
timber...they are lost...