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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Art: [QB] thinkmoney: love is love. Hate is not love and never motivated by love. Art: Motivations can be mixed and one can be based on another. Any kind of discipline to correct behavior has to at least point out where a person is wrong (made a mistake) and this punishment, however mild, hurts the disciplined person (however little it may hurt). Thus, any kind of discipline is aggressive to at least a very small extent. Now this aggression is based in love for the person being disciplined - hate issues from love. When the hate is greater than the love, then the discipline is definitely hostile. We have al been disciplined by mean people, and it is hard to see love in such discipline. When the love is greater than the hate, the discipline is more loving and has little sting as we realize the person is trying to help us. When the killer cuts into your body, the aggression without love is obvious. When the surgeon cuts into your body, the act is still motivatrd by aggression based in hate motivation, but this hate is itself based in love motivation, since the surgeon cuts you up to eventually help you - moral aggression. Kate: But love is imperfect in this world so all love is matter of degree. I will even use perfect mental health as synomous with love. When we are god, then we have perfect love. But all on earth are here to learn love. Art: Perfect love is conditional love based on knowledge of causality - it rewards behavior that contributes to self, family or national well-being while punishes behavior that does the opposite. Perfect love applies hate as well as love to improve life for self, family and nation. We should only love another nation (or anyone else) on the condition that it we imediately or eventually be reciprocated in some way. Imperfect love is unconditional love as it rewards criminals, incompetence, exploiters, and hostile attackers. Turning the other cheek only works sometimes, and rewards evil at other times (and thus turning the other cheek is evil sometimes). Weakness all to often invites aggression. Jesus got it wrong and unconditional love is often evil. Kate: All lessons here are to learn love. Art: Yes to learn to love wisely - always conditionally except to the infant where unconditional love is appropriate. Poets may idolize unconditional love based on dependency needs to be loved as an infant. You idolize love and say you love everyone unconditionally, as many religions teach. This is a feel good idea - idealstic but unrealistic. When people say this is foolish of you - always turning the other cheek, you have to believe that yes, I will suffer here on earth by loving everyone unconditionally - many will take advantage of me or hurt me - but I will make up for it in heaven and be paid back with eternal bliss. Religion uses the delusional idea of heaven (where, I understand, many virgins are awaiting to give me sexual pleasure) to make up for the pain of loving unconditionaly on earth. Kate: Anger is negative and not love. Art: Depends. Some peole find it very positive, relaxing and pleasureable, to hurt or kill others. Kate: If a child steps put on the street, I may shout but not yell. Art: Yes, hate motivated by love. Depends on the relative contribution of each. You shout in a softer tone when love is stronger than hate and yell in a hostile tone when hate is stronger than love, when you discipline. Kate: As we move closer to god, we are more loving. Art: As well as more hating. We both love and hate generously and fully, as appropriate. Kate: Anger is never loving. Art: We aggresively kill terrorists in anger and this is loving those we protect from terrorist aggression. Anger is always loving, just not always loving to the one we ahow anger towards. Kate: Those that are more aware will be aware that any anger are issues within oneself that need attention to grow and become better people, hence closer to love/god. Art: Not true. Anger is often not created just within oneself but created from the environment (including other people). Kate: For me god is unity..love..positive energy... Art: For me that is Santa Claus you are describing. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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