quote:If we don't invest the money to correct the mess we have generated by worship of Freemarketism, this Nation is dead, all of it, the good with the bad. Then we needn't worry about the debt, because there won't be a U.S. from which to collect that debt. (Oh, and that means you and yours that led us into this hole, too.)
We aren't "investing" anything. We are printing money out of thin air and wrecklessly throwing it about in hopes that it will do some good. Unfortunately, the cure for over-borrowing and over-spending is not more over-borrowing and more over-spending.
Posts: 1577 | From: Ohio | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
bdgee are you trying to say that govt handouts of sub prime home loans to anyone was a good thing? We are becoming a welfare nation both corporate and individual. This is not how it is supposed to be.
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: bdgee are you trying to say that govt handouts of sub prime home loans to anyone was a good thing? We are becoming a welfare nation both corporate and individual. This is not how it is supposed to be.
there were no govt handouts.
it was all privately capitalised.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: bdgee are you trying to say that govt handouts of sub prime home loans to anyone was a good thing? We are becoming a welfare nation both corporate and individual. This is not how it is supposed to be.
"This is not how it is supposed to be."
Oh, now you are wanting your far right-wing mantra to be "how it is supposed to be."
I'll tell you exactly "how it is supposed to be."
It is supposed to be exactly like the Constitution says and therein there is no economic system or philosopjhy declared.
So get off that right-wing bull sh-t. The Constitution does not declare whatever you want to be the way of the Nation.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: bdgee are you trying to say that govt handouts of sub prime home loans to anyone was a good thing? We are becoming a welfare nation both corporate and individual. This is not how it is supposed to be.
there were no govt handouts.
it was all privately capitalised.
Why deal with facts they only get in the way. Ignorance is bliss.
It was the lending institutions that decided to loan the money, then it was the investment institutions that decided not only to sell them as diveratives but to create Credit Default Swaps to insure them without calling it insurance so that they could get around regulation that compounded the problem and globalized it but hey why look at the real reasons.
Posts: 3255 | From: Los Angeles California | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Oh now I'm selfish? You don't know me or have any idea of what I do or don't do as far as charity and community service is concerned.
Enlighten us. But to tell you the truth poverty here is nothing compared to poverty in 3rd world countries. Most Americans do "charity or community" work as a way to feel better about themselves that they "did something". Charity/community work should be a constant and not a once a year or similar thing.
quote:Your brother has drawn a tough card and I'll pray for him and your family.
TY for your prayer but forgive me if I don't take it serious right now after your first remark.
quote:Your the one who has made disparaging remarks about United States citizens when you clearly don't have a clue what your talking about.
Considering I am Latin-American and have seen conditions here and in Latin America (and not just on TV or read about it like most of Americans do)first hand among the poor, I would say I know what I am talking about more so then you or others. The only other person on this board who remotely has that experience I would say is Glass.
quote:Stuff your oh Americans don't due enough for the rest of the world. We do more than any other country on EARTH.
America the Gov't does and not with the approval of Americans themselves. Individual Americans do sh*t in other countries. Also America the country/Gov't does do such things around the world but with strings attached and for it's own agenda that eventually creeps out.
Why would you say Latin America has been in poverty for so long?
As far as you personal problems with your brother I still wish him well, if you don't accept those wishes that's totally up to you.
Is the government where your brother lives offering any relief?
-------------------- Let's Go METS!!! Posts: 3317 | From: CT | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Most union members follow union leaders like sheep to the slaughter.
That is a really a dumb stupid ignorant and inappropriate claim.
You can't offer proof to substantiate that asinine vulgarity, so why do you fart it out?
It is one thing to offer an opinion, but you are simply posting a lie that isn't a fact. It comes from the sh-t that packs your head.
Your the one so out of touch it's hard to believe. We will see one of the greatest union blunders in the next year,The American Auto Industry. Wait until the unions have no secret ballots to hold them back. Either you vote for the union or one of the union brothers will run a key down the side of your car. And if you could would you please come up with some decent insults, I know you must of learned a few from your days on the college masterbating team.
-------------------- Let's Go METS!!! Posts: 3317 | From: CT | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:So, I ask again, "since when does a union have the authority to tell its members what to do or think?"
Authority or not, some do it. If you don't think they do, you are naive.
-------------------- "When you're in a hole, the first thing you do is stop digging." -H. Ross Perot Posts: 111 | From: Detroit | Registered: Jun 2008
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You, and the rest of the right-wing, are absolutely and religiously locked out of rationality when it comes to unions, wanting to deny people the rights they are assured by the Constitution, simply because they are members or potential members of a union.
If the Auto companies have the right to do business and make contracts with others, then the unions members and the unions, which, like the automobile giants, too are organizations of people, have exactly the same right.
Those workers provide something of value to the company, their time and skill, in trade for other things of value to them, their benefits and working conditions. The two groups certainly have the right to make legally binding contracts in trade for their services.
Except if and when those contractual agreements might impose on the rights of others, it is none of your or my business and we should have the common courtesy and grace to mind our own business. The same thing holds for the Government (by the Constitution).
Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
Secret ballot? In a business transaction? Do you similarly demand that each vote of the board of Ford or GM or in the share holders meeting be open to public view? If not, then how come you are so eager to deny the union the right to privacy? Or are you so confused that you think that votes in share holder's meetings of corporations are required to be done in public?
And that assertion that "Either you vote for the union or one of the union brothers will run a key down the side of your car." Is the very worst sort of character assignation and slander, with not one tiny bit of fact to back up the lie. None exists!
The history of labor law demonstrates that it has been union members suffered from the actions of hired goons of management that is the true story. It isn't the unions that has been the culprit, it is always the management, from the beating of the workers on a street corner by hired Pinkerton goons in the Gulf States Paper strike to the Pullman riots, where the hired Pinkerton agents, just for the fear factor, killed people they believed were union members just walking down the street. You need to get some facts instead of that biased crap.
You want more insults? You and you hopelessly ignorant, asinine, bigoted, post serve as quite suitable insults for you dimwitted nonsense. The vulgarity you desire would distract from the depths of reason in which you squaller.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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You, and the rest of the right-wing, are absolutely and religiously locked out of rationality when it comes to unions, wanting to deny people the rights they are assured by the Constitution, simply because they are members or potential members of a union.
If the Auto companies have the right to do business and make contracts with others, then the unions members and the unions, which, like the automobile giants, too are organizations of people, have exactly the same right.
Those workers provide something of value to the company, their time and skill, in trade for other things of value to them, their benefits and working conditions. The two groups certainly have the right to make legally binding contracts in trade for their services.
Except if and when those contractual agreements might impose on the rights of others, it is none of your or my business and we should have the common courtesy and grace to mind our own business. The same thing holds for the Government (by the Constitution).
Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
Secret ballot? In a business transaction? Do you similarly demand that each vote of the board of Ford or GM or in the share holders meeting be open to public view? If not, then how come you are so eager to deny the union the right to privacy? Or are you so confused that you think that votes in share holder's meetings of corporations are required to be done in public?
And that assertion that "Either you vote for the union or one of the union brothers will run a key down the side of your car." Is the very worst sort of character assignation and slander, with not one tiny bit of fact to back up the lie. None exists!
The history of labor law demonstrates that it has been union members suffered from the actions of hired goons of management that is the true story. It isn't the unions that has been the culprit, it is always the management, from the beating of the workers on a street corner by hired Pinkerton goons in the Gulf States Paper strike to the Pullman riots, where the hired Pinkerton agents, just for the fear factor, killed people they believed were union members just walking down the street. You need to get some facts instead of that biased crap.
You want more insults? You and you hopelessly ignorant, asinine, bigoted, post serve as quite suitable insults for you dimwitted nonsense. The vulgarity you desire would distract from the depths of reason in which you squaller.
I hope you never have to vote against THE UNION.
-------------------- Let's Go METS!!! Posts: 3317 | From: CT | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:You, and the rest of the right-wing, are absolutely and religiously locked out of rationality when it comes to unions, wanting to deny people the rights they are assured by the Constitution, simply because they are members or potential members of a union.
Not all "right-wingers" hate unions. Many belong to unions and like the unions they belong to.
quote:And that assertion that "Either you vote for the union or one of the union brothers will run a key down the side of your car." Is the very worst sort of character assignation and slander, with not one tiny bit of fact to back up the lie. None exists!
Yes, things like this DO happen. You have bad apples in every bunch.
-------------------- "When you're in a hole, the first thing you do is stop digging." -H. Ross Perot Posts: 111 | From: Detroit | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:So, I ask again, "since when does a union have the authority to tell its members what to do or think?"
Authority or not, some do it. If you don't think they do, you are naive.
And if you think that is the norm, you are worse than naive.
Too, just because someone called a "leader" tells you to do something doesn't mean you do it. OIr are you still running about telling everyone that Saddam had nuclear bombs already mounted on guided missiles aimed at and capable of sticking inside the U.S., because dubya says so?
If you think union members do not exercise their right to refuse or ignore directions from anyone they choose, you are nor just naive, you are simple minded. Maybe you subjugate yourself to some cause or "leader", but that doesn't justify you saying union members do.
I suspect those of you that make such idiotic claims about unions have never been at a union meeting, which may well be the most purely democratic organized things in our society, because the position of the "leaders" is up for a secret ballot vote periodically and in some cases, whenever some member declares that wish. A "leader" that tries to "control" an election doesn't last. By the way, union strike votes are by secret ballot.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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You, and the rest of the right-wing, are absolutely and religiously locked out of rationality when it comes to unions, wanting to deny people the rights they are assured by the Constitution, simply because they are members or potential members of a union.
If the Auto companies have the right to do business and make contracts with others, then the unions members and the unions, which, like the automobile giants, too are organizations of people, have exactly the same right.
Those workers provide something of value to the company, their time and skill, in trade for other things of value to them, their benefits and working conditions. The two groups certainly have the right to make legally binding contracts in trade for their services.
Except if and when those contractual agreements might impose on the rights of others, it is none of your or my business and we should have the common courtesy and grace to mind our own business. The same thing holds for the Government (by the Constitution).
Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
Secret ballot? In a business transaction? Do you similarly demand that each vote of the board of Ford or GM or in the share holders meeting be open to public view? If not, then how come you are so eager to deny the union the right to privacy? Or are you so confused that you think that votes in share holder's meetings of corporations are required to be done in public?
And that assertion that "Either you vote for the union or one of the union brothers will run a key down the side of your car." Is the very worst sort of character assignation and slander, with not one tiny bit of fact to back up the lie. None exists!
The history of labor law demonstrates that it has been union members suffered from the actions of hired goons of management that is the true story. It isn't the unions that has been the culprit, it is always the management, from the beating of the workers on a street corner by hired Pinkerton goons in the Gulf States Paper strike to the Pullman riots, where the hired Pinkerton agents, just for the fear factor, killed people they believed were union members just walking down the street. You need to get some facts instead of that biased crap.
You want more insults? You and you hopelessly ignorant, asinine, bigoted, post serve as quite suitable insults for you dimwitted nonsense. The vulgarity you desire would distract from the depths of reason in which you squaller.
I hope you never have to vote against THE UNION.
Lockbrain,
I have voted both for and against a union. If the need ever again comes to pass, I'll do it again and I won't dodge the question which way I voted from the others voting.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:And if you think that is the norm, you are worse than naive.
you missed my later post. No, it is not the norm. You have bad people in every bunch.
You need to quit making assumptions. Quit twisting what people say to suit your purpose. You do it all throughout the message boards. Also, I think you have issues and you need help. Just because someone doesn't think like you or agree with you doesn't mean they are in any way less intelligent than you. Better yet, don't get help, you're more entertaining this way.
-------------------- "When you're in a hole, the first thing you do is stop digging." -H. Ross Perot Posts: 111 | From: Detroit | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:You, and the rest of the right-wing, are absolutely and religiously locked out of rationality when it comes to unions, wanting to deny people the rights they are assured by the Constitution, simply because they are members or potential members of a union.
Not all "right-wingers" hate unions. Many belong to unions and like the unions they belong to.
quote:And that assertion that "Either you vote for the union or one of the union brothers will run a key down the side of your car." Is the very worst sort of character assignation and slander, with not one tiny bit of fact to back up the lie. None exists!
Yes, things like this DO happen. You have bad apples in every bunch.
Yes.
And the constant assertion by the the vast majority of the far right-wing extremist that union member are required, by whatever influence, to obey the directive of some "leader", is as absurd and simple minded as to say that every conservative is in lock step behind the will of Fat Rush the Doper and dubya, The Great Prevaricator.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:And if you think that is the norm, you are worse than naive.
you missed my later post. No, it is not the norm. You have bad people in every bunch.
You need to quit making assumptions. Quit twisting what people say to suit your purpose. You do it all throughout the message boards. Also, I think you have issues and you need help. Just because someone doesn't think like you or agree with you doesn't mean they are in any way less intelligent than you. Better yet, don't get help, you're more entertaining this way.
I do indeed have issues. But I don't need help.
Perhaps it is you that needs a bit of buffering of your interpretations. Mine are not the excess of opinions or the assumption. it is to the excesses of assumption and to biased assertions that I direct my post, such as the assertion that union members are required to obey some "leader". It is a false and reckless assertion.
It is equally reckless to allow such a bigoted assertion to lie unchallenged or to then challenge the challenge of the lie. How many wasted years did it lay acceptable to make and accept claims that dependents of Africans could not handle responsible positions and were not worthy of being equal? Bigotry thrives on being met by silence! Perhaps it is sinful to encourage bigotry by asserting that to challenge bigotry is wrong?
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
The history of labor law demonstrates that it has been union members suffered from the actions of hired goons of management that is the true story. It isn't the unions that has been the culprit, it is always the management, from the beating of the workers on a street corner by hired Pinkerton goons in the Gulf States Paper strike to the Pullman riots, where the hired Pinkerton agents, just for the fear factor, killed people they believed were union members just walking down the street.
this is true.
not only has "corporate America" done this but more.
corporate America even buys labor from jailors.
Prison labor on the rise in US By Alan Whyte and Jamie Baker 8 May 2000 There are presently 80,000 inmates in the US employed in commercial activity, some earning as little as 21 cents an hour. The US government program Federal Prison Industries (FPI) currently employs 21,000 inmates, an increase of 14 percent in the last two years alone. FPI inmates make a wide variety of products—such as clothing, file cabinets, electronic equipment and military helmets—which are sold to federal agencies and private companies. FPI sales are $600 million annually and rising, with over $37 million in profits.
quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Must have an old car you don't care about.
All the union members I know tell me the union takes political stands and fully expect union members to vote the way of union leaders.
One may inspect the sun to rice in the south, but that doesn't compel its cooperation.
The union doesn't assume any political position until the question has been placed before the membership, filly discussed, with all pro and com arguments considered and worked through, and the position has been voted on by the membership. Once that tally has been made, isn't it natural to assume that position will be the choice of the membership?
Also, it is bluntly obvious that you are entirely anti-union and would refuse to listen to the normal union member if he told you how things are done, so I'd doubt any halfway bright and reasonably honest union member would bother conversing about activities of the union with you, much as he wouldn't consort with irrational foreign sympathizers, though he might treat them politely, passing the time of day and such out of common courtesy. So I wouldn't place much value in what you get from "All the union members (you) know..."
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Must have an old car you don't care about.
All the union members I know tell me the union takes political stands and fully expect union members to vote the way of union leaders.
One may inspect the sun to rice in the south, but that doesn't compel its cooperation.
The union doesn't assume any political position until the question has been placed before the membership, filly discussed, with all pro and com arguments considered and worked through, and the position has been voted on by the membership. Once that tally has been made, isn't it natural to assume that position will be the choice of the membership?
Also, it is bluntly obvious that you are entirely anti-union and would refuse to listen to the normal union member if he told you how things are done, so I'd doubt any halfway bright and reasonably honest union member would bother conversing about activities of the union with you, much as he wouldn't consort with irrational foreign sympathizers, though he might treat them politely, passing the time of day and such out of common courtesy. So I wouldn't place much value in what you get from "All the union members (you) know..."
You're such a toole! You talk out of your azz like you actually know something. Ha
-------------------- Let's Go METS!!! Posts: 3317 | From: CT | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: The history of labor law demonstrates that it has been union members suffered from the actions of hired goons of management that is the true story. It isn't the unions that has been the culprit, it is always the management, from the beating of the workers on a street corner by hired Pinkerton goons in the Gulf States Paper strike to the Pullman riots, where the hired Pinkerton agents, just for the fear factor, killed people they believed were union members just walking down the street.
this is true.
not only has "corporate America" done this but more.
corporate America even buys labor from jailors.
Prison labor on the rise in US By Alan Whyte and Jamie Baker 8 May 2000 There are presently 80,000 inmates in the US employed in commercial activity, some earning as little as 21 cents an hour. The US government program Federal Prison Industries (FPI) currently employs 21,000 inmates, an increase of 14 percent in the last two years alone. FPI inmates make a wide variety of products—such as clothing, file cabinets, electronic equipment and military helmets—which are sold to federal agencies and private companies. FPI sales are $600 million annually and rising, with over $37 million in profits.
btw? you may notice that this increase was under Clinton ;)
When I lived in Nashville, my next door neighbor was the accountant in charge of the State's prison factories. Thus, he acted as the Chief Executive, of a quite large industrial component of this Nations manufacturing strength.
The Tennessee State Prison Industries built all the furniture that goes into State offices and such, held the contract with most of the heavy equipment factories in the country and some in Canada and Europe for welding together the "scoops" and similar such devices that go onto bulldozers and trenching tools and such and had exclusive contracts for many other sorts of manufacturing, from "made in America" womens clothing to Spiral notebooks and on and on. The workers might get fifteen or 20 cents an hour, but most did the work to keep from being locked in an 8 by 10 cell with some other person most opf the day and night.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Must have an old car you don't care about.
All the union members I know tell me the union takes political stands and fully expect union members to vote the way of union leaders.
One may inspect the sun to rice in the south, but that doesn't compel its cooperation.
The union doesn't assume any political position until the question has been placed before the membership, filly discussed, with all pro and com arguments considered and worked through, and the position has been voted on by the membership. Once that tally has been made, isn't it natural to assume that position will be the choice of the membership?
Also, it is bluntly obvious that you are entirely anti-union and would refuse to listen to the normal union member if he told you how things are done, so I'd doubt any halfway bright and reasonably honest union member would bother conversing about activities of the union with you, much as he wouldn't consort with irrational foreign sympathizers, though he might treat them politely, passing the time of day and such out of common courtesy. So I wouldn't place much value in what you get from "All the union members (you) know..."
You're such a toole! You talk out of your azz like you actually know something. Ha
Oh, I do actually know something.
Its sad you know so little.
But, then, that's to be expected from someone that has so closed a mind that he has refused to learn facts and chooses to preach lies and propaganda..
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: The history of labor law demonstrates that it has been union members suffered from the actions of hired goons of management that is the true story. It isn't the unions that has been the culprit, it is always the management, from the beating of the workers on a street corner by hired Pinkerton goons in the Gulf States Paper strike to the Pullman riots, where the hired Pinkerton agents, just for the fear factor, killed people they believed were union members just walking down the street.
this is true.
not only has "corporate America" done this but more.
corporate America even buys labor from jailors.
Prison labor on the rise in US By Alan Whyte and Jamie Baker 8 May 2000 There are presently 80,000 inmates in the US employed in commercial activity, some earning as little as 21 cents an hour. The US government program Federal Prison Industries (FPI) currently employs 21,000 inmates, an increase of 14 percent in the last two years alone. FPI inmates make a wide variety of products—such as clothing, file cabinets, electronic equipment and military helmets—which are sold to federal agencies and private companies. FPI sales are $600 million annually and rising, with over $37 million in profits.
btw? you may notice that this increase was under Clinton
When I lived in Nashville, my next door neighbor was the accountant in charge of the State's prison factories. Thus, he acted as the Chief Executive, of a quite large industrial component of this Nations manufacturing strength.
The Tennessee State Prison Industries built all the furniture that goes into State offices and such, held the contract with most of the heavy equipment factories in the country and some in Canada and Europe for welding together the "scoops" and similar such devices that go onto bulldozers and trenching tools and such and had exclusive contracts for many other sorts of manufacturing, from "made in America" womens clothing to Spiral notebooks and on and on. The workers might get fifteen or 20 cents an hour, but most did the work to keep from being locked in an 8 by 10 cell with some other person most opf the day and night.
why don't we let prisioners build cars, who knew the answer would be so simple.
-------------------- Let's Go METS!!! Posts: 3317 | From: CT | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
We would all be better served if the discussion in general--not necessarily this thread--would focus on the real problem: namely, the loss of manufacturing vs the rise of financial "products."
In other words, we used to be a nation who built things and sold stuff; now our biggest "industry" is financial...ummmm..."products."
In other words, debt.
Spending so much time blaming unions for this mess is something like blaming chickens for the rising cost of feed.
posted
I agree totally! We are a service oriented society now. I'm not blaming unions for all the problems, it just seems that sometimes workers aren't best served by their unions. I personnally would rather draw a pay check then an unemployment check. Sometimes the union forgets that without the manufacturing plant there's no work. As we are about to see in Detriot. I have a friend in the office cleaning business and he has building contracts that include union and non-union workers. He's able to hire more people and do a better service w/o union presence.
-------------------- Let's Go METS!!! Posts: 3317 | From: CT | Registered: Dec 2006
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It's also futile to ask "the union" for its thoughts on how to get out of this mess: I'd be real surprised if there's 25--or even 10--union members in the U.S. who understand the problem well enough to articulate reasonable solutions.
It's also futile to ask "the union" for its thoughts on how to get out of this mess: I'd be real surprised if there's 25--or even 10--union members in the U.S. who understand the problem well enough to articulate reasonable solutions.
That may be, but I think they can recognize that their jobs are going to disappear if they don't work with the company to trim the fat.
Government jobs are the next to suffer, maybe not on the federal level but at state and local levels the economies just can't support the deals made with union workers.
-------------------- Let's Go METS!!! Posts: 3317 | From: CT | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
I thought this country was built with hard working people!!! Capitalism is DEAD!!!
Posts: 1458 | From: Ohio | Registered: Mar 2004
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It's also futile to ask "the union" for its thoughts on how to get out of this mess: I'd be real surprised if there's 25--or even 10--union members in the U.S. who understand the problem well enough to articulate reasonable solutions.
That may be, but I think they can recognize that their jobs are going to disappear if they don't work with the company to trim the fat.
Government jobs are the next to suffer, maybe not on the federal level but at state and local levels the economies just can't support the deals made with union workers.
well, they won't have any trouble recruiting for the military... where we gonna send them next?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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It's also futile to ask "the union" for its thoughts on how to get out of this mess: I'd be real surprised if there's 25--or even 10--union members in the U.S. who understand the problem well enough to articulate reasonable solutions.
That may be, but I think they can recognize that their jobs are going to disappear if they don't work with the company to trim the fat.
Government jobs are the next to suffer, maybe not on the federal level but at state and local levels the economies just can't support the deals made with union workers.
well, they won't have any trouble recruiting for the military... where we gonna send them next?
posted
In think this is the start of state monopoly capitalism which is the start of fascism.
Nothing socialist about this at all.
Watch and see
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise. Posts: 3827 | From: beautiful California | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
In major manufacturing plants, the management long ago realized that trying to work around or in spite of the union was hopeless and foolish. Just as it is the case of unions understanding that without the company there is no employment for the worker, without the employees, there is no manufacturing.....nothing.
As for the idea that there are less than " 25--or even 10--union members in the U.S. who understand the problem", I know more than that that now and have known more than that for decades. Major unions have in their employ entire staffs of financial experts that do exactly the same job as their counterparts do for the companies with which they work. Just as the company management, union management counts among their numbers a significant percentage with advanced degrees in labor law and business management degrees and with many years and miles of experience in those areas.
Yes, there yet are, within the membership of many unions to this day, a number of loud antagonistic fools whose only concept of "bargaining" is to confront and accuse and seek surrender as the only means of settlement they want to accept on any issue, but over the last half century, those voices seldom are heard except in early open union meetings, where the majority of the participants soon grind that thought process down so that rational approaches to "bargaining" can prevail. The silly notion that union membership is dominated by grossly undereducated and intractable semi-illiterate, muscle men, is a Hollywood fiction about as rational and viable as the ignorant movie and tv constructed belief that a shooter can stand firm and in place without suffering massive recoil, while the bullet hits and knocks the victim backward twenty feet through the air, then into and through a closed and latched hardwood door, landing ten feet beyond amongst a cloud of splinter and sawdust like particles of the shattered door. Any halfway rational person that ever sat through a high school physics class knows that Newton's laws make that impossible. High school physics courses are a common item on the resume of union members in this day and time. So are classes in civics and history, where one can learn the actual history of the labor movement, which brought us public education and, which, was fought against by 100%, and with full force, of the robber barons. When WWI and WWII, stuck up their nasty heads, it was the fact that the U.S. rather than any other nation on earth, due to public education, had a labor force sufficiently educated to handle the massive technical manufacturing that eventually determined the outcomes. And that labor force was almost totally union organized (with "leaders" that saw country first and refused to entertain thoughts of strikes in a time of national danger).
I have known both very high level union leaders and very high level management persons ("leaders"?) and have, in case after case, known them to work long and sincerely to meet and construct a workable "agreement", rather than yield to confrontation, which serves neither. The union people can and always do (there are laws to follow) stay in close contact with the membership, consulting their guidance whenever possible, while the management team is almost always constricted by some absolute and dictatorial "power" that never participates except non-publicly from the shadows to refuse to allow the management team to do other than treat the situation (and the union members and negotiators) as if the union membership is that Hollywood evil characterization of the ignorant uncultured worker out to destroy the company. (Theirs is usually a desire to "bust the damn union" and brag about it at the country club.) (Those "powers" or "bosses" almost always didn't work up to that position of power, or have any education or experience that brought them to their position, but took it by right of having control of the money, often by inheriting it from mama or daddy. They so very often are the spoiled rich kid or the the school yard bully that was that much bigger or that much meaner so that he became the schools "football hero" and never had to take or study in high school or college and actually can believe that fiction of a .357 Magnum bouncing its 6 foot 7, 280 pound, victim off a stone wall 20 feet from where he was forced into the air by the momentum of the bullet, while the 116 pound shooter hardly notices the recoil that barely makes her gun hand jump. They had no more reason to learn cooperation either....and didn't bother!)
Now consider the notion that the union members are trying to or about to cause "their jobs ... to disappear". Don't you think the jobs of the management would disappear too? The whole industry is about to disappear from our shores and go exactly where the manufacture of refrigerators and TVs and so many other items and products that once was mostly done here .... India, Korea, Japan, the Czech Republic, etc.
Blame and taking sides is absurd now!
And using this crisis as a means of union busting is a political vulgarity. That's once again the Party first mentality that brought the republican Party to bring us this destroyed economy. We need, ALL OF US, to stop the hate and maneuvering for power and control and organize to save our economy. We die as a country otherwise.
IT'S TIME FOR EVERY ONE OF US TO TOE THE LINE AND REJECT THOSE CHILDISH POLITICAL WISH LISTS AND GET ABOUT THE BUSINESS OF SAVING THIS NATION!!!!!
AND THAT EFFORT MUST START WITH JOBS, THOSE WE HAVE AND THOSE WE MUST MANAGE TO GENERATE.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
re: the 25 or even 10--I was referring to rank n' file membership. Their up-top moggedy-mogs no doubt realize that the subprime mortgages in and of themselves are not the problem.
My larger point remains: all this discussion of unions is meaningless if the point is to discuss the possibility of socialism somehow springing forth from this credit crisis.
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