IF we go into a Depression? we will become Socialist immediately.
every country we compete against is Socialist. There is no way we'll come out of a Depression with out having to "beat them at their own game".
IF you want to avoid Socialism? You are going to have to accept alot of bailouts. Allowing everything to come completely apart will not result in some "new" capitalist movement that will propel US back to our old status.
for those people that want to see the Dems and Obama fail? shame on you. You are putting party before Nation. It's like hoping Tom Brady will break his leg so your team can go to the superbowl. You still didn't have the best team, and you didn't get to see teh best game.
Posted by a surfer on :
You know it starts with every one of us...
The negativity on the streets is mind-boggling.
Help your family, friends and neighbors realize that this is not the end of the world but a chance for a new beginning.
I know I was harsh on Obama before the election and have posted some controversial topics but I stand behind him 100% to lead this country through the next 4 years.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:IF we go into a Depression? we will become Socialist immediately.
We are already on the fast track to socialism. I don't at all equate a depression to socialism. In fact, it the economy were to completely collapse, we might have to face the fact that socialism does not work. At some point, people will have to learn to stand on their own - instead of relying on government entitlements.
Our country is at a tipping point and could easily collapse. This is not Obama's problem, although he could certainly speed it up. This is the result of excess borrowing and spending by both parties for the past several decades.
It's time to pay the piper!
Posted by glassman on :
I don't at all equate a depression to socialism.
tell me how many people will go "on the dole" if we don't "bail out" the car co's?
you think somebody is going to buy the factories and start building new cars?
not gonna happen.
as for already being on the fast track? i agree, we are on track, but it's because we've outsourced all the work to third world countries.
instead of elevating the US? it's bringing US into the third world with "first world" tastes and no work ethic...
how much money has our country "invested" in COMMUNIST China?
Posted by raybond on :
Look at the auto makers whinners like all big capital is when there own policies bring them down.
Begging for government money aren't these people who used to quote ronnie boy
"I am from the government and I am here to help you." Ha,Ha,Ha. Meaning the most scary words in the English language. They sure aren't acting like they are scared of the government now.
Could you picture these men having the courage to stand on there own two republican feet and do something for the country like there UAW employess's have done. Dose there board meetings start by giving respect to the flag like UAW meetings do. Did they care about there country when they invested all over the globe and drained there country of jobs and ruined there own domestic markets so the U.S. market does not exist at the moment?
IMHO they have got a lot of gall to ask for our money.
One of the best things that could happen to the manufacturers dealer network is that most of it could go under it could use a good housecleaning anyway
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:instead of elevating the US? it's bringing US into the third world with "first world" tastes and no work ethic...
WELL SAID! I agree with that 100%. We certainly won't get the work ethic back with socialism. Socialism provides no incentive to work or innovate, which is the main reason that it always fails.
Posted by raybond on :
US holds lead in worker productivity published: Tuesday | September 4, 2007
American workers stay longer in the office, at the factory or on the farm than their counterparts in Europe and most other rich nations, and they produce more per person over the year.
They also get more done per hour than everyone but the Norwegians, according to an International Labour Organisation (ILO) report released Monday, which said the United States "leads the world in labour productivity".
Each U.S. worker produces US$63,885 (€46,867) of wealth per year, more than his or her counterpart in all other countries, the ILO said in its report.
Ireland comes in second at US$55,986 (€41,073), ahead of Luxembourg, US$55,641 (€40,819); Belgium, US$55,235 (€40,522); and France, US$54,609 (€40,062).
The productivity figure is found by dividing the country's gross domestic product by the number of people employed. The U.N. report is based on 2006 figures for many countries, or the most recent available.
Productivity was up in the Latin American and Caribbean region, with each worker contributing wealth of US$18,908, or 2.9 per cent more than they did in 2005.
The region, however, fell below the world average of US$19,834.
Only part of the U.S. productivity growth, which has outpaced that of many other developed economies, can be explained by the longer hours Americans are putting in, the ILO said.
Productivity
The U.S., according to the report, also beat all 27 nations in the European Union, Japan and Switzerland in the amount of wealth created per hour of work - a second key measure of productivity.
Norway, which is not an EU member, generates the most output per working hour, US$37.99 (€27.87), a figure inflated by the country's billions of dollars (euros) in oil exports and high prices for goods at home.
The U.S. is second at US$35.63 (€26.14), about a half-dollar ahead of third-place France.
Seven years ago, French workers produced over a dollar more on average than their American counterparts. The country led the U.S. in hourly productivity from 1994 to 2003.
The U.S. employee put in an average 1,804 hours of work in 2006, the report said. That compared with 1,407.1 hours for the Norwegian worker, and 1,564.4 for the French.
It pales, however, in comparison with the annual hours worked per person in Asia, where seven economies - South Korea, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Hong Kong, China, Malaysia and Thailand - surpassed 2,200 average hours per worker. But those countries had lower productivity rates.
Competition
America's increased productivity "has to do with the ICT (information and communication technologies) revolution, with the way the U.S. organises companies, with the high level of competition in the country, with the extension of trade and investment abroad," said Jose Manuel Salazar, the ILO's head of employment.
The ILO report warned that the widening of the gap between leaders such as the U.S. and poorer nations has been even more dramatic.
Labourers from regions such as south-east Asia, Latin America and the Middle East have the potential to create more wealth, but are being held back by a lack of investment in training, equipment and technology, the agency said.
In sub-Saharan Africa, workers are only about a twelfth as productive as those in developed countries, the report said.
"The huge gap in productivity and wealth is cause for great concern," ILO Director-General Juan Somavia said, adding that it was important to raise productivity levels of the lowest-paid workers inthe world's poorest countries.
China and other East Asian countries are catching up quickest with Western countries. Productivity in the region has doubled in the past decade and is accelerating faster than anywhere else, the report said.
Long way to go
But they still have a long way to go: workers in East Asia are still only about a fifth as productive as labourers in industrialised countries.
The vast differences among China's sectors tell part of the story. Whereas a Chinese industrial worker produces US$12,642 (€9,289) worth of output - almost eight times more than in 1980 - a labourer in the farm and fisheries sector contributes a paltry US$910 (€669) to gross domestic product.
The difference is much less pronounced in the United States, where a manufacturing employee produced an unprecedented US$104,606 (€76,860) of value in 2005. An American farm labourer, meanwhile, created US$52,585 (€38,637) worth of output, down 10 per cent from seven years ago, when U.S. agricultural productivity peaked.
-
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:instead of elevating the US? it's bringing US into the third world with "first world" tastes and no work ethic...
WELL SAID! I agree with that 100%. We certainly won't get the work ethic back with socialism. Socialism provides no incentive to work or innovate, which is the main reason that it always fails.
that's kindof funny coming from you to me PM. i'm an artist and my wife is a research scientist.
i still return back to my main point which is this.
if our kid has a bad earache? we don't blame the genetic material and let them suffer until they get better or go deaf or even worse.
we take 'em tot he expert and get help.
plain and simple. all this "tough love" conservatism is just so much bluster.
i wish we weren't in this mess. i didn't do it. but i can't sell the goods i DO make with my own hands to people that don't have jobs.
you might think you are sitting in a good position as a landlord since, as you claim, you don't care about the property values, but you should realise by now that if you have no interest in your property values increasing? you are nothing more than a glamorised maintenance engineer.
Posted by glassman on :
interesting:
Each U.S. worker produces US$63,885 (€46,867) of wealth per year, more than his or her counterpart in all other countries, the ILO said in its report.
yet the median household income is 46,000$/yr and the saving rate is negative..
anybody know why the disparity?
Posted by Highwaychild on :
Spread the wealth around!
Being middle class used the be a GOOD thing, but now we're in dire straits all the sudden?
Now there's a war on us, when did all this happen?
How rich do people have to be?
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:you might think you are sitting in a good position as a landlord since, as you claim, you don't care about the property values, but you should realise by now that if you have no interest in your property values increasing? you are nothing more than a glamorised maintenance engineer.
Glass, no, the property value has very little to do with the rental property business. I don't buy a rental because I am hoping that it will increase in value in the future so that I can cash out. I buy a rental property because it is an asset that generates money. In my view, a rental property isn't any different than buying stock in a company, except I have much more direct control of a rental than I could ever have with a stock. The current property value has nothing to do with the cash it generates.
At any rate, I am not immune from a recession or depression. I've been expecting and am beginning to see people having increasing difficulty paying the rent. This will only get worse as the economy tanks. However, the biggest risk to my business is the government. If the economy gets really bad, the socialists in the government could pass a moratorium on evictions or some type of rent control. If that happened, I could easily be put out of business in a very short period of time.
I'm not looking forward to a collapse of the economy and I won't be immune from its effects. However, this country is broke and has promised everything to everyone. I don't know how that can be changed without an economic catastrophe, which is exactly where I believe that we are headed.
In 1781, when our government wrecklessly printed money as they are doing today, the price of a pair of shoes got to $5,000 per pair in Virginia. Can we be far behind? This is going to get a LOT worse over the next few years and probably in the immediate future.
Posted by glassman on :
In 1781, when our government wrecklessly printed money as they are doing today, the price of a pair of shoes got to $5,000 per pair in Virginia.
considering how the constituion wasn't even ratified until 1787? shoes could not cost 5000$ US before there were US$
the (mis)use of continental dollars led to a gold standard, which we never should have left IMO..
If the economy gets really bad, the socialists in the government could pass a moratorium on evictions or some type of rent control. If that happened, I could easily be put out of business in a very short period of time.
what would the "anti-socialists" do?
put up tent cities so people can live there at tax payers expense? i've seen that before, in the third world...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:instead of elevating the US? it's bringing US into the third world with "first world" tastes and no work ethic...
WELL SAID! I agree with that 100%. We certainly won't get the work ethic back with socialism. Socialism provides no incentive to work or innovate, which is the main reason that it always fails.
No incentive to work? What you forget is what we are doing is not "pure" socialism... we all get paid money and still spend money... what we are doing is not a classless and moneyless society... our Gov't will not be a one party Gov't.... we will still vote for our representatives every 4 years or whatever years... our Gov't is doing 1 of 2 things... either they are being the bank much like a bank such as Bank of America let's a business , whether big or small, borrow money to keep running and keeping people employed which in the end keeps our economy afloat when they spend their paychecks on goods and services... the 2nd thing they are doing is giving big Corporations money in return for a stake in the Business... not a "full" stake... but a shareholder much like any of us buy stock in a company in return for money...
We are not turning into a one party classless society that has big business being totally state owned... the state/Gov't are part owners in some and lenders for others with money having to be paid back...
the problem with our society, and pure Capitalism in general, is that it's always about me me me me instead of our for our society as a whole for the benefit of all of us... nor does pure Socialism work because then the state becomes the me me me me part... the only thing that will work is a combination of the two such as in France and other similar countries... The so called "socialists" of France and the "conservative/capitalists" in that country coexist without all this paranoia about each other...
What you have to realize is our society has to work as a team and not as for every person out for themselves... because if not then what is happening now will collapse our society or will repeat itself in the future if we ever happen to come out of our situation we are in right now...
Think of it this way... in the NFL how do teams win? As a Team and Teamwork or as a individual and putting your ego before the good of the team? ...
Would the Cowboys, for example, win a game if only TO and Romo did all the plays individually or if they all worked as a team to get that touchdown? ...
American society I'm sorry to say is a selfish society and that is why we fail when it begins to break apart... we all say were "patriotic" and "proud to be an American" when times are good but when things go bad we all fight each other and then all of a sudden its all about me me me me instead of pulling together and working together... that is not pure Socialism... that is teamwork... that is the "incentive" in a so called "socialist" scenario that you are using loosely... that is how we get out of such messes like in the Great Depression...
Posted by T e x on :
In my view, a rental property isn't any different than buying stock in a company, except I have much more direct control of a rental than I could ever have with a stock.
Holy moly...
Ignoring the diction and even the syntax (which is telling), I must say...peeps in a rental property definitely should make the rent. But to equate people in their individual homes to corporations/stock is a great leap...and kinda weird.
Posted by glassman on :
buying on margin too....
hmmmm.......
Posted by raybond on :
And the use of section 8 funds comparing it to cash flow and rental income to dividends
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: buying on margin too....
hmmmm.......
OPM... don't the rich always advocate that?
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:the (mis)use of continental dollars led to a gold standard, which we never should have left IMO..
I agree!
quote:We are not turning into a one party classless society that has big business being totally state owned... the state/Gov't are part owners in some and lenders for others with money having to be paid back...
You really didn't think that socialism would happen all at once - did you?
quote:But to equate people in their individual homes to corporations/stock is a great leap...and kinda weird.
It's a BUSINESS! The rental property is an income generating asset - nothing more, nothing less. The tenants are customers - nothing more, nothing less. I don't have an emotional attachment to my property or my tenants.
quote:And the use of section 8 funds comparing it to cash flow and rental income to dividends
Cash flow is rents - expenses - debt. Section 8 is nothing more than rents that are paid by YOU. Rental income is just more gross income, whether paid by the tenant or by you.
quote:buying on margin too....
hmmmm.......OPM... don't the rich always advocate that?
That's the way to make money.
Posted by glassman on :
using OPM is socialism too... by your loose definition
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:using OPM is socialism too... by your loose definition
Using OPM is absolutely capitalistic. The lender is providing a service and making money from that service. Once again, the problem with the lending industry is government involvement, starting with the Federal Reserve.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:using OPM is socialism too... by your loose definition
Using OPM is absolutely capitalistic. The lender is providing a service and making money from that service. Once again, the problem with the lending industry is government involvement, starting with the Federal Reserve.
i agree that the FED is most of the problem, but they are not socialists in any stretch of the word.
i started this thread to explore what socialism really means.
if you want to blame somebody for our current economic problems? you have to look at the most basic reason for our problem.
it is very simple. we as a nation produce more per person than any other.
BUT? we (as a nation) spend even more than we produce.
this has been going on for too long.
the govt gave away several tax rebates ove rht last five years, they had to do that to compensate for stagnation in wages.
people were buying bigger better houses and cars because they WRONGLY believed they were going to get more pay as a result of their better performance. fact is pay went down while prices went up. why did pay go down? increased compettition?
Posted by glassman on :
the govt gave away several tax rebates over the last five years, they had to do that to compensate for stagnation in wages.
i've been in third world countries.
i've spent time with the wealthy and the poor there.
what makes a third world country a third world country?
unequal distribution of wealth.
having a few wealthy people that work hard to maintain their socio-economic status remain exactly the same is what makes those countries third world.
the people with wealth there work actively to keep their poor in the same state. it's the easiest way to remain wealthy.
even Mexico does this. that's why so many Mexicans come here to work.
the notion that the US middle class makes too much money is just crazy.
sure the middle class has borrowed too much here, but they have watched the wealthy do it even more.
it is not socialism to "envision" a strong middle class that has money to spend.
Posted by Peaser on :
if our kid has a bad earache? we don't blame the genetic material and let them suffer until they get better or go deaf or even worse.
The earache isn't your kids fault...
Comparing people to pinecones...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: the govt gave away several tax rebates over the last five years, they had to do that to compensate for stagnation in wages.
i've been in third world countries.
i've spent time with the wealthy and the poor there.
what makes a third world country a third world country?
unequal distribution of wealth.
having a few wealthy people that work hard to maintain their socio-economic status remain exactly the same is what makes those countries third world.
the people with wealth there work actively to keep their poor in the same state. it's the easiest way to remain wealthy.
even Mexico does this. that's why so many Mexicans come here to work.
the notion that the US middle class makes too much money is just crazy.
sure the middle class has borrowed too much here, but they have watched the wealthy do it even more.
it is not socialism to "envision" a strong middle class that has money to spend.
Whatever you say about Socialism falls on deaf ears Glass because of people's fears and paranoia about it... they fear the unknown...
what we are seeing now about these fears is NeoMcCarthyism... especially from the GOP who wants to strike fear and hatred for the Dems...
You are correct that the rich in Latin America prefer to keep the poor in poverty so that they may remain rich... I have seen it myself in Nicaragua when I visited there a few years back... I will be going to Nicaragua in December to see it again myself to visit my brother who is one of the poor of that country... there is a big divide of rich and poor in Nicaragua... there is no middle class.. about 2/3rd's of Nicaragua's population lives in poverty... also if you read Che Guevara's book The Motorcycle Diaries - Notes on a Latin American Journey, you'll see the divide from poverty and rich through his eyes before he became a Marxist radical... it was when he was a young medical student traveling through Latin American countries and it is what changed his political views about the world... if you prefer not to read it then watch the movie of the same title... But anyways the rich of those 3rd World Countries should embrace making the poor into middle class because these people would in turn spread the wealth up the ladder by buying goods and services... which in turn would make these 3rd world countries economic powers along the lines of U.S., Germany, Japan etc..
anyways Glass,people on this board and this country do not care about these 3rd world countries because Americans are self centered and selfish... it is what makes us be disliked by the rest of the world... Americans think that if we ignore poverty problems of the world it will go away and not affect us but in reality is that it does affect us directly or indirectly... I said it before and I'll say it again... we need to pressure 3rd world Gov't's to try to solve their poverty problems and not keep it the way it is with just rich and poor... by pressuring them to do so, it would create a middle class in those countries and drastically eliminate illegal immigration to our own country by wages increasing... and if that is not motivation enough then you use what is clear and dear to the American heart: Greed. Solving poverty in other countries and creating middle classes in those countries would create new customers for American goods and services which in turn would enrich the American economy.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:anyways Glass,people on this board and this country do not care about these 3rd world countries because Americans are self centered and selfish... it is what makes us be disliked by the rest of the world...
That is factually incorrect and a blatant lie being spread by the left. Americans are the most generous people on the planet and put their money where their mouthes are (except leftists like Biden who are all for giving provided he doesn't have to do it). Here's a quote and link to an article about giving:
"...Americans give twice as much as the next most charitable country, according to a November 2006 comparison done by the Charities Aid Foundation. In philanthropic giving as a percentage of gross domestic product, the U.S. ranked first at 1.7 percent. No. 2 Britain gave 0.73 percent, while France, with a 0.14 percent rate, trailed such countries as South Africa, Singapore, Turkey and Germany."
And you'll note that this article was on the most socialist "news" outlet in the country!
Posted by glassman on :
we need to pressure 3rd world Gov't's to try to solve their poverty problems and not keep it the way it is with just rich and poor...
the way to do that is to create real schools there and teach the kids to read and write.
give them more OPPORTUNITIES to earn leisure activities and time.
that's what makes the American middle class work.
it's not the acumulation of wealth that drives the majority of people to work. it's the possibility of owning season tix to the NFL or going Nascar or MLB... (to name a few)
the wealthy that become wealthy on their own have a special drive that few others do.
what "free traders" don't tell people while they stand up and spout off about how free trade is so good is that it will cause major rifts and discrepancies in the "traditional" flow of cash while major portions of the world are brought up above poverty status.
what American goods and service are we selling overseas? financial services? d'oh..
ag products? ag products from the US are not only heavily subsidized by US taxpayers and then sold overseas, but i also see other countries not allowing them in while we import cars from them (for instance)
we have TV and Movies to sell.. they don't create that many jobs tho... and other countires will want their own programming once they are able to produce it..
i am all for creating a worldwide middle class, but i am not convinced that that the uber-rich are interested in a world wide middle class as much as i that they are busy creating a larger group of working poor.
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:Originally posted by glassman: the govt gave away several tax rebates over the last five years, they had to do that to compensate for stagnation in wages.
i've been in third world countries.
i've spent time with the wealthy and the poor there.
what makes a third world country a third world country?
unequal distribution of wealth.
having a few wealthy people that work hard to maintain their socio-economic status remain exactly the same is what makes those countries third world.
the people with wealth there work actively to keep their poor in the same state. it's the easiest way to remain wealthy.
even Mexico does this. that's why so many Mexicans come here to work.
the notion that the US middle class makes too much money is just crazy.
sure the middle class has borrowed too much here, but they have watched the wealthy do it even more.
it is not socialism to "envision" a strong middle class that has money to spend.
Whatever you say about Socialism falls on deaf ears Glass because of people's fears and paranoia about it... they fear the unknown...
what we are seeing now about these fears is NeoMcCarthyism... especially from the GOP who wants to strike fear and hatred for the Dems...
You are correct that the rich in Latin America prefer to keep the poor in poverty so that they may remain rich... I have seen it myself in Nicaragua when I visited there a few years back... I will be going to Nicaragua in December to see it again myself to visit my brother who is one of the poor of that country... there is a big divide of rich and poor in Nicaragua... there is no middle class.. about 2/3rd's of Nicaragua's population lives in poverty... also if you read Che Guevara's book The Motorcycle Diaries - Notes on a Latin American Journey, you'll see the divide from poverty and rich through his eyes before he became a Marxist radical... it was when he was a young medical student traveling through Latin American countries and it is what changed his political views about the world... if you prefer not to read it then watch the movie of the same title... But anyways the rich of those 3rd World Countries should embrace making the poor into middle class because these people would in turn spread the wealth up the ladder by buying goods and services... which in turn would make these 3rd world countries economic powers along the lines of U.S., Germany, Japan etc..
anyways Glass,people on this board and this country do not care about these 3rd world countries because Americans are self centered and selfish... it is what makes us be disliked by the rest of the world... Americans think that if we ignore poverty problems of the world it will go away and not affect us but in reality is that it does affect us directly or indirectly... I said it before and I'll say it again... we need to pressure 3rd world Gov't's to try to solve their poverty problems and not keep it the way it is with just rich and poor... by pressuring them to do so, it would create a middle class in those countries and drastically eliminate illegal immigration to our own country by wages increasing... and if that is not motivation enough then you use what is clear and dear to the American heart: Greed. Solving poverty in other countries and creating middle classes in those countries would create new customers for American goods and services which in turn would enrich the American economy.
Why is your brother living in poverty? Couldn't you help him or are you one of those selfish americans you refur to?
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:Why is your brother living in poverty? Couldn't you help him or are you one of those selfish americans you refur to?
Because he wants YOU to help him. It takes a village to help a brother. SHARE THE WEALTH! It's patriotic to pay more taxes Lockman!
Posted by jordanreed on :
stop being an azz!
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by jordanreed: stop being an azz!
he can't help it. he doesn't have anybody else left to abuse
Posted by Propertymanager on :
Gosh, I'm sorry guys. As it turns out, the lefties are BIG givers. Just look at the numbers for our new vice-president:
Adjusted Gross Income Charity
1998 $215,432 $195
1999 $210,797 $120
2000 $219,953 $360
2001 $220,712 $360
2002 $227,811 $260
2003 $231,375 $260
2004 $234,271 $380
2005 $321,379 $380
2006 $248,459 $380
2007 $319,853 $995
Total $2,450,042 $3,690
Yes, that's right, out of a total income of $2,450,042, Biden gave $3,690!!! That's a whopping one tenth of one percent!!! A lot of us mean conservatives give over 100 times more than that!
Posted by jordanreed on :
But you're still an azz!
Posted by glassman on :
That's a whopping one tenth of one percent!!! A lot of us mean conservatives give over 100 times more than that!
you have no clue what giving means. it's obvious in everything you post.
the election is over, go lick your wounds in private, it's really disgusting to hear your pitiful bleating
Posted by wallymac on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: Gosh, I'm sorry guys. As it turns out, the lefties are BIG givers. Just look at the numbers for our new vice-president:
Adjusted Gross Income Charity
1998 $215,432 $195
1999 $210,797 $120
2000 $219,953 $360
2001 $220,712 $360
2002 $227,811 $260
2003 $231,375 $260
2004 $234,271 $380
2005 $321,379 $380
2006 $248,459 $380
2007 $319,853 $995
Total $2,450,042 $3,690
Yes, that's right, out of a total income of $2,450,042, Biden gave $3,690!!! That's a whopping one tenth of one percent!!! A lot of us mean conservatives give over 100 times more than that!
You left this part out.
"A spokesman for Biden, David Wade, tells York that says "the figures on Biden’s tax return do not reflect the true extent of his giving."
Wade: “The charitable contributions claimed by the Bidens on their tax returns are not the sum of their annual contributions to charity,” Wade said in a statement to NRO. “Like most regular churchgoers, they contribute to their church, and they also contribute to their favorite causes with their time as well as their checkbooks, whether it’s [Jill] Biden’s volunteer work with military families or the Biden breast-health initiative, or the way in which the family pitched in driving supplies to the Gulf Coast after Hurricane Katrina, or the ways Sen. Biden has supported charities that help women, police, and veterans.”
More from Wade: “Like a lot of families that put three kids through college and have an aging parent move in with them, the Bidens aren’t divorced from the realities of everyday life,” Wade says. Still, Wade continues, “finding ways to give back is important to them.”
PM constantly preaches free market uber alles, claiming he wants it because it gives freedom. But when you look into his nonsense, the freedom he wishes for is only the freedom to be totally irresponsible.
His is a philosophy of pure selfishness and ego. He is too arrogant to learn even enough to reach out of blind ignorance and recognize the fact of that ignorance and accept that neither capitalism nor conservatism is directed or even suggested for the Nation within the Constitution and therefore, his incessant hammering for strict adherence to what he thinks are principles of the free market, capitalism, and conservatism, is NOT, as he seems to believe, some sort of patriotic duty of Americans.
There are both good and bad elements in all economic systems, including those that are socialistic and those that are capitalistic. It is the failures of the leaders of a Nation that causes whatever economic system it recognizes to fail the people, not the particular economic type. PM needs to recognize that the free market he worships so religiously has failed the United States of America, not because it is all bad, but because it is not all good. And reinventing the United States of America, so that its government cannot restrict the free market would only begin a wait for its next economic failure. The free market cannot guarantee economic stability. Indeed, it guarantees periodic financial collapse.
Any Nation's most fundamental duty is the general welfare of its people, not the protection of its well to do, their fortunes, or some arbitrary financial idealized system.
(Jordan is right, we have an azzhole about.)
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:you have no clue what giving means.
I think that I have a very good idea what giving means. Giving one tenth of one percent is giving VERY LITTLE, in fact ALMOST NOTHING!
quote:"A spokesman for Biden, David Wade, tells York that says "the figures on Biden’s tax return do not reflect the true extent of his giving."
Wade: “The charitable contributions claimed by the Bidens on their tax returns are not the sum of their annual contributions to charity,” Wade said in a statement to NRO. “Like most regular churchgoers, they contribute to their church, and they also contribute to their favorite causes with their time as well as their checkbooks...”
Here's a newsflash. Serious Christians give their tithe AND contribute their time!!! Let's face it, Biden's a cheapskate!
Posted by glassman on :
comparing people's giving on tax returns is kindof wierd...
you can't take a deduction for making sandwiches at the soup kitchen can you?
tax breaks are not really giving either, (and no i'm not knocking it)
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: I don't at all equate a depression to socialism.
tell me how many people will go "on the dole" if we don't "bail out" the car co's?
you think somebody is going to buy the factories and start building new cars?
not gonna happen.
as for already being on the fast track? i agree, we are on track, but it's because we've outsourced all the work to third world countries.
instead of elevating the US? it's bringing US into the third world with "first world" tastes and no work ethic...
how much money has our country "invested" in COMMUNIST China?
How exactly do we stop jobs from being outsourced to third world countries?
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:comparing people's giving on tax returns is kindof wierd...
you can't take a deduction for making sandwiches at the soup kitchen can you?
tax breaks are not really giving either, (and no i'm not knocking it)
So, let me see if I get this straight. You are against actually giving money, because it's deductable? That explains it. That must be why Biden is such a cheapskate, because giving money isn't really giving! LOL!!!
Furthermore, do you really believe that Biden spends a lot of time at the soup kitchen? Give me a break!!!
Posted by bdgee on :
It works both ways.
It has always bothered me that Andrew Carnegie is remembered as a philanthropist, when the reason he had so much money to dole out was that he so eagerly underpaid his workers who had to work in horribly dangerous and unhealthy conditions he was too cheap to correct. How is it his right to determine to whom wealth generated by the workers of the Nation should be given? Why did he have so much more right to freedom of speech than those who were ultimately responsible for that wealth?
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:How is it his right to determine to whom wealth generated by the workers of the Nation should be given? Why did he have so much more right to freedom of speech than those who were ultimately responsible for that wealth?
He had the right to determine where his money would go, BECAUSE IT WAS HIS MONEY! He had no more right to freedom of speech than any worker, although people were probably more interested in listening to him that the average worker.
Posted by bdgee on :
One good way to stop sending jobs out of the country would be to stop the facade of employers paying for the health insurance the workers need. Then the the actual cost of employing those workers wouldn't have to include what most other Nations cover with some variety of national medical program, that is far far more economically bearable for the Nation.
Posted by bdgee on :
PM, you are a jerk, first class.....and an ignorant one, at that.
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: One good way to stop sending jobs out of the country would be to stop the facade of employers paying for the health insurance the workers need. Then the the actual cost of employing those workers wouldn't have to include what most other Nations cover with some variety of national medical program, that is far far more economically bearable for the Nation.
And the Unions are going to go for national healthcare? I think not.
Posted by bdgee on :
"And the Unions are going to go for national healthcare? I think not."
Must be some very different unions in your bailiwick. Why would a union object to a way to pay for its member's daughter's treatment for a broken leg or pneumonia?
Posted by Propertymanager on :
Here's another newsflash! The country is BROKE! We've given everything to everyone for far too long. It's gotten so ridiculous that no-one can fail in this country. This game is OVER! The government (taxpayers) can't pay for the entitlements we've already promised and certainly can't afford new ones. The fact is that the total compensation (pay + benefits) for the Big 3 is about double that of the foreign automakers right here in the US! That has nothing to do with socialized medicine. The Big 3 is overpaying the workers!!! It's as simple as that!
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: "And the Unions are going to go for national healthcare? I think not."
Must be some very different unions in your bailiwick. Why would a union object to a way to pay for its member's daughter's treatment for a broken leg or pneumonia?
CONTROL! If the union can't keep control of members benefit's who needs them.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: Here's another newsflash! The country is BROKE! We've given everything to everyone for far too long. It's gotten so ridiculous that no-one can fail in this country. This game is OVER! The government (taxpayers) can't pay for the entitlements we've already promised and certainly can't afford new ones. The fact is that the total compensation (pay + benefits) for the Big 3 is about double that of the foreign automakers right here in the US! That has nothing to do with socialized medicine. The Big 3 is overpaying the workers!!! It's as simple as that!
The country is BROKE? duh...
i've been posting htis here for years and the fools YOU voted for are the ones that finally broke US.
the big 3 are not overpaid. whatever happened to your freemarket ideals? they negotiated the pay in a free market environment.
you have no idea what you are even for.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: Here's another newsflash! The country is BROKE! We've given everything to everyone for far too long. It's gotten so ridiculous that no-one can fail in this country. This game is OVER! The government (taxpayers) can't pay for the entitlements we've already promised and certainly can't afford new ones. The fact is that the total compensation (pay + benefits) for the Big 3 is about double that of the foreign automakers right here in the US! That has nothing to do with socialized medicine. The Big 3 is overpaying the workers!!! It's as simple as that!
Like I said, you are leaned way over to the ignorant side as well as the backward side.
More than just a teensy bit of that per hour expense for American Auto workers is the necessary health insurance package. (True, I have no doubt that along with not allowing them their Constitutional right to free speech by making union membership illegal, you would also deny those workers and their families health insurance, then, fire them immediately, with no hearing, if they had to take off to get little Johnny to the emergency room.)
There is much to say for conservatism, but what you want is not conservative, it is simply 18th century crap and 100% backward, at best.
If the government refuses to bail out the banks or to find a way to save the auto industry, then it gets to spend even more money via FDIC and unemployment claims, neither of which offers even a glance at any future return on investment.
The Government MUST act and part of that action will have to be to curtail the excesses brought on by the religion, Freemarketism.
Posted by bdgee on :
"you have no idea what you are even for."
Yeah, he does. He's for royalty with him appointed king.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:the big 3 are not overpaid. whatever happened to your freemarket ideals? they negotiated the pay in a free market environment.
you have no idea what you are even for.
I agree that the wages and benefits were set by the free market. However, that does not mean that the wages and prices are not too high. The company and the union traded short term peace and gain for the long term health of the auto companies. They are now broke and should be allowed to fail. The companies should go out of business. The workers should be fired. The pension plans should be declared insolvent. That is the way that the free market deals with such incompetence.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: "And the Unions are going to go for national healthcare? I think not."
Must be some very different unions in your bailiwick. Why would a union object to a way to pay for its member's daughter's treatment for a broken leg or pneumonia?
CONTROL! If the union can't keep control of members benefit's who needs them.
You keep displaying your ignorance. Unions are democratic. You can only be a union leader if you got elected and holding such a position does not include any power of control, just the chance to get unelected at any moment.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
I agree that the wages and benefits were set by the free market. However, that does not mean that the wages and prices are not too high. The company and the union traded short term peace and gain for the long term health of the auto companies. They are now broke and should be allowed to fail. The companies should go out of business. The workers should be fired. The pension plans should be declared insolvent. That is the way that the free market deals with such incompetence.
now you are saying that YOUR word is worthless. since you don't think OTHER people should live up to their word.
enter a contract? fulfill your obligation.
the auto co's are asking for a LOAN from the govt since nobody else is loaning.
they CAN"T loan money they don't have. they don't have it cuz they got caught LYING, big time.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Why is your brother living in poverty? Couldn't you help him or are you one of those selfish americans you refur to?
Seriously, don't be like PMS and talk out of your azz or be an azz. I do send him money and I'm going down there to take him to a hospital or doctor to get him diagnosed to see if he has prostate cancer. I'm paying the medical bills. What i can afford.
My brother has always been poor. First in Costa Rica and now in Nicaragua. 2/3's of Nicaragua live in poverty and extreme poverty. He's one of them. Alot of my family is poor in fact. But anyways me and mother do help my brother when we can. And when we heard he got sick recently and maybe something for the worst and can't afford to go to a doctor and such. We bought plane tickets and are on our way to help him. We are not selfish and self centered like you, PMS and most of the right wing.
Btw, thank you for your sympathies. Americans are so compassionate. Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:Why is your brother living in poverty? Couldn't you help him or are you one of those selfish americans you refur to?
Because he wants YOU to help him. It takes a village to help a brother. SHARE THE WEALTH! It's patriotic to pay more taxes Lockman!
STFU... azzhole.. hope u get cancer and suffer like my brother is without a doctor... perhaps only then you will be human and see the suffering around the world... and what is like not having your Gov't help you...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: It works both ways.
It has always bothered me that Andrew Carnegie is remembered as a philanthropist, when the reason he had so much money to dole out was that he so eagerly underpaid his workers who had to work in horribly dangerous and unhealthy conditions he was too cheap to correct. How is it his right to determine to whom wealth generated by the workers of the Nation should be given? Why did he have so much more right to freedom of speech than those who were ultimately responsible for that wealth?
I think he became a philanthropist out of guilt... and for public relations purposes... to better his tarnished image in his last years... plus putting his name on everything he donated to create like libraries, carnegie hall etc... if he really cared about such causes then he should of insisted in not having his name put on such things and give a message that it's about the people in general and not himself...
Posted by glassman on :
Bill Gates was not a good person to have as a competitor either. Now he is a philanthropist.
it's his choice. i personally do not beleive you can "buy" philanthropy. You are either a philanthropist or you aren't.
and being "nice" is not necessarily philanthropy either IMO
Posted by bdgee on :
Mach, you aren't obligated to have to correct that jerk. We know he's a self centered prick and we knew he was out of line.
Hope for the best, Mach. They (a series of 5 physicians) told me I had cancer, even scheduled the operating room to take out my right lung four days later. I didn't show up and went for a second opinion. It wasn't cancer. I wish similar findings for your brother.
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee:
quote:Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: "And the Unions are going to go for national healthcare? I think not."
Must be some very different unions in your bailiwick. Why would a union object to a way to pay for its member's daughter's treatment for a broken leg or pneumonia?
CONTROL! If the union can't keep control of members benefit's who needs them.
You keep displaying your ignorance. Unions are democratic. You can only be a union leader if you got elected and holding such a position does not include any power of control, just the chance to get unelected at any moment.
It will be very intersting to see if the unions step up to the plate in Detroit. Unions ususally tell their members to stand strong as the plant they work at closes and moves to a state where unions aren't required.
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Why is your brother living in poverty? Couldn't you help him or are you one of those selfish americans you refur to?
Seriously, don't be like PMS and talk out of your azz or be an azz. I do send him money and I'm going down there to take him to a hospital or doctor to get him diagnosed to see if he has prostate cancer. I'm paying the medical bills. What i can afford.
My brother has always been poor. First in Costa Rica and now in Nicaragua. 2/3's of Nicaragua live in poverty and extreme poverty. He's one of them. Alot of my family is poor in fact. But anyways me and mother do help my brother when we can. And when we heard he got sick recently and maybe something for the worst and can't afford to go to a doctor and such. We bought plane tickets and are on our way to help him. We are not selfish and self centered like you, PMS and most of the right wing.
Btw, thank you for your sympathies. Americans are so compassionate.
Oh now I'm selfish? You don't know me or have any idea of what I do or don't do as far as charity and community service is concerned.
Your brother has drawn a tough card and I'll pray for him and your family.
Your the one who has made disparaging remarks about United States citizens when you clearly don't have a clue what your talking about.
Stuff your oh Americans don't due enough for the rest of the world. We do more than any other country on EARTH.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: Mach, you aren't obligated to have to correct that jerk. We know he's a self centered prick and we knew he was out of line.
Hope for the best, Mach. They (a series of 5 physicians) told me I had cancer, even scheduled the operating room to take out my right lung four days later. I didn't show up and went for a second opinion. It wasn't cancer. I wish similar findings for your brother.
Thank you Bdgee... some people are not humans... they may be in a human body but they have no soul and not human or compassionate inside...
As for my brother, I can only hope it is only BPH of the prostate and nothing else... but do not know because he has been vomiting and losing weight though he seems to be doing better lately... but it's on and off... will see when i get there...
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:Originally posted by bdgee:
quote:Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: "And the Unions are going to go for national healthcare? I think not."
Must be some very different unions in your bailiwick. Why would a union object to a way to pay for its member's daughter's treatment for a broken leg or pneumonia?
CONTROL! If the union can't keep control of members benefit's who needs them.
You keep displaying your ignorance. Unions are democratic. You can only be a union leader if you got elected and holding such a position does not include any power of control, just the chance to get unelected at any moment.
It will be very intersting to see if the unions step up to the plate in Detroit. Unions ususally tell their members to stand strong as the plant they work at closes and moves to a state where unions aren't required.
Give me a couple of actual cases, with proof, instead of constantly spouting from your bigoted ignorance.
Also, since when does a union have the authority to tell its members what to do or think?
You are nothing but a bunch of biased hot air without any facts. To provide you with one, a union has every right to say whatever its membership wishes it to (assuming it meets normal restrictions of truth, lack of danger. etc.). It is a Constitutionally protected right.
Posted by Lockman on :
Most union members follow union leaders like sheep to the slaughter.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Oh now I'm selfish? You don't know me or have any idea of what I do or don't do as far as charity and community service is concerned.
Enlighten us. But to tell you the truth poverty here is nothing compared to poverty in 3rd world countries. Most Americans do "charity or community" work as a way to feel better about themselves that they "did something". Charity/community work should be a constant and not a once a year or similar thing.
quote:Your brother has drawn a tough card and I'll pray for him and your family.
TY for your prayer but forgive me if I don't take it serious right now after your first remark.
quote:Your the one who has made disparaging remarks about United States citizens when you clearly don't have a clue what your talking about.
Considering I am Latin-American and have seen conditions here and in Latin America (and not just on TV or read about it like most of Americans do)first hand among the poor, I would say I know what I am talking about more so then you or others. The only other person on this board who remotely has that experience I would say is Glass.
quote:Stuff your oh Americans don't due enough for the rest of the world. We do more than any other country on EARTH.
America the Gov't does and not with the approval of Americans themselves. Individual Americans do sh*t in other countries. Also America the country/Gov't does do such things around the world but with strings attached and for it's own agenda that eventually creeps out.
Posted by raybond on :
Americans are a selfish people in general I have seen other parts of the world and people share more and help more when they can.
Even our unions are prime examples of that instead of organizing new members they sat back and isolated themselves with an I got mine you can go get yours attitude now they won't have theres to much longer.
As far as health care if we had a single payer health care system like most of the people in the in the first world do, we would compete much better with outside industry and retain more of our domestic industry instead of it going abroad.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Most union members follow union leaders like sheep to the slaughter.
That is a really a dumb stupid ignorant and inappropriate claim.
You can't offer proof to substantiate that asinine vulgarity, so why do you fart it out?
It is one thing to offer an opinion, but you are simply posting a lie that isn't a fact. It comes from the sh-t that packs your head.
Posted by bdgee on :
"As far as health care if we had a single payer health care system like most of the people in the in the first world do, we would compete much better with outside industry and retain more of our domestic industry instead of it going abroad."
Yes, but it is only part of the problem.
Next step, cheap, safe, reliable public transportation, 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
Child care, so workers can work.
Posted by raybond on :
Originally posted by Lockman: Most union members follow union leaders like sheep to the slaughter.
--------------------------------------------------That is just not true I have found that unions are very democratic and patriotic. Full of free thinkes that know who is looking out for there best intrest and it is not management that is doing that.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:STFU... azzhole.. hope u get cancer and suffer like my brother is without a doctor
...and there we have the hatred by the socialists. They talk about tolerance, but hate everyone that doesn't parrot their socialist ideas.
quote:Also, since when does a union have the authority to tell its members what to do or think?
Now you're not even being honest. Of course the unions tell their members what they want them to do and they punish anyone that doesn't get in line.
quote:As far as health care if we had a single payer health care system like most of the people in the in the first world do, we would compete much better with outside industry and retain more of our domestic industry instead of it going abroad.
The country is already broke, thanks to all the socialistic entitlements we currently have. Where are we going to get more money for more entitlements?
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:STFU... azzhole.. hope u get cancer and suffer like my brother is without a doctor
...and there we have the hatred by the socialists. They talk about tolerance, but hate everyone that doesn't parrot their socialist ideas.
quote:Also, since when does a union have the authority to tell its members what to do or think?
Now you're not even being honest. Of course the unions tell their members what they want them to do and they punish anyone that doesn't get in line.
quote:As far as health care if we had a single payer health care system like most of the people in the in the first world do, we would compete much better with outside industry and retain more of our domestic industry instead of it going abroad.
The country is already broke, thanks to all the socialistic entitlements we currently have. Where are we going to get more money for more entitlements?
Exactly how does not accepting your crude vulgarities of thought amount to Mach being a socialist. That's stupid. You need to spend some time studying what socialism is and learn that it isn't refusing to kowtow to your bigotry.
Instead of answering the question I asked, you choose to repeat the ignorant lie that brought it to fore, as if lying louder and repeatedly while ignoring the facts makes the facts false.
So, I ask again, "since when does a union have the authority to tell its members what to do or think?"
If you are unable or unwilling to address the issue, be smart enough to just be quiet. As it is said, why prove you are a fool by opening your mouth?
If we don't invest the money to correct the mess we have generated by worship of Freemarketism, this Nation is dead, all of it, the good with the bad. Then we needn't worry about the debt, because there won't be a U.S. from which to collect that debt. (Oh, and that means you and yours that led us into this hole, too.) A national health plan would remove health care from being the single largest portion of our national expenses. That expense is the biggest item preventing us from competing in the world market on anything like a level playing field.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:If we don't invest the money to correct the mess we have generated by worship of Freemarketism, this Nation is dead, all of it, the good with the bad. Then we needn't worry about the debt, because there won't be a U.S. from which to collect that debt. (Oh, and that means you and yours that led us into this hole, too.)
We aren't "investing" anything. We are printing money out of thin air and wrecklessly throwing it about in hopes that it will do some good. Unfortunately, the cure for over-borrowing and over-spending is not more over-borrowing and more over-spending.
Posted by bdgee on :
I wonder if you have any idea how ignorant your rantings are?
Your way is a guaranteed failure of the Nation.
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
bdgee are you trying to say that govt handouts of sub prime home loans to anyone was a good thing? We are becoming a welfare nation both corporate and individual. This is not how it is supposed to be.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: bdgee are you trying to say that govt handouts of sub prime home loans to anyone was a good thing? We are becoming a welfare nation both corporate and individual. This is not how it is supposed to be.
there were no govt handouts.
it was all privately capitalised.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: bdgee are you trying to say that govt handouts of sub prime home loans to anyone was a good thing? We are becoming a welfare nation both corporate and individual. This is not how it is supposed to be.
"This is not how it is supposed to be."
Oh, now you are wanting your far right-wing mantra to be "how it is supposed to be."
I'll tell you exactly "how it is supposed to be."
It is supposed to be exactly like the Constitution says and therein there is no economic system or philosopjhy declared.
So get off that right-wing bull sh-t. The Constitution does not declare whatever you want to be the way of the Nation.
Posted by wallymac on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: bdgee are you trying to say that govt handouts of sub prime home loans to anyone was a good thing? We are becoming a welfare nation both corporate and individual. This is not how it is supposed to be.
there were no govt handouts.
it was all privately capitalised.
Why deal with facts they only get in the way. Ignorance is bliss.
It was the lending institutions that decided to loan the money, then it was the investment institutions that decided not only to sell them as diveratives but to create Credit Default Swaps to insure them without calling it insurance so that they could get around regulation that compounded the problem and globalized it but hey why look at the real reasons.
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Oh now I'm selfish? You don't know me or have any idea of what I do or don't do as far as charity and community service is concerned.
Enlighten us. But to tell you the truth poverty here is nothing compared to poverty in 3rd world countries. Most Americans do "charity or community" work as a way to feel better about themselves that they "did something". Charity/community work should be a constant and not a once a year or similar thing.
quote:Your brother has drawn a tough card and I'll pray for him and your family.
TY for your prayer but forgive me if I don't take it serious right now after your first remark.
quote:Your the one who has made disparaging remarks about United States citizens when you clearly don't have a clue what your talking about.
Considering I am Latin-American and have seen conditions here and in Latin America (and not just on TV or read about it like most of Americans do)first hand among the poor, I would say I know what I am talking about more so then you or others. The only other person on this board who remotely has that experience I would say is Glass.
quote:Stuff your oh Americans don't due enough for the rest of the world. We do more than any other country on EARTH.
America the Gov't does and not with the approval of Americans themselves. Individual Americans do sh*t in other countries. Also America the country/Gov't does do such things around the world but with strings attached and for it's own agenda that eventually creeps out.
Why would you say Latin America has been in poverty for so long?
As far as you personal problems with your brother I still wish him well, if you don't accept those wishes that's totally up to you.
Is the government where your brother lives offering any relief?
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee:
quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Most union members follow union leaders like sheep to the slaughter.
That is a really a dumb stupid ignorant and inappropriate claim.
You can't offer proof to substantiate that asinine vulgarity, so why do you fart it out?
It is one thing to offer an opinion, but you are simply posting a lie that isn't a fact. It comes from the sh-t that packs your head.
Your the one so out of touch it's hard to believe. We will see one of the greatest union blunders in the next year,The American Auto Industry. Wait until the unions have no secret ballots to hold them back. Either you vote for the union or one of the union brothers will run a key down the side of your car. And if you could would you please come up with some decent insults, I know you must of learned a few from your days on the college masterbating team.
Posted by rhwdetroit on :
quote:So, I ask again, "since when does a union have the authority to tell its members what to do or think?"
Authority or not, some do it. If you don't think they do, you are naive.
Posted by bdgee on :
Lock...,
You, and the rest of the right-wing, are absolutely and religiously locked out of rationality when it comes to unions, wanting to deny people the rights they are assured by the Constitution, simply because they are members or potential members of a union.
If the Auto companies have the right to do business and make contracts with others, then the unions members and the unions, which, like the automobile giants, too are organizations of people, have exactly the same right.
Those workers provide something of value to the company, their time and skill, in trade for other things of value to them, their benefits and working conditions. The two groups certainly have the right to make legally binding contracts in trade for their services.
Except if and when those contractual agreements might impose on the rights of others, it is none of your or my business and we should have the common courtesy and grace to mind our own business. The same thing holds for the Government (by the Constitution).
Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
Secret ballot? In a business transaction? Do you similarly demand that each vote of the board of Ford or GM or in the share holders meeting be open to public view? If not, then how come you are so eager to deny the union the right to privacy? Or are you so confused that you think that votes in share holder's meetings of corporations are required to be done in public?
And that assertion that "Either you vote for the union or one of the union brothers will run a key down the side of your car." Is the very worst sort of character assignation and slander, with not one tiny bit of fact to back up the lie. None exists!
The history of labor law demonstrates that it has been union members suffered from the actions of hired goons of management that is the true story. It isn't the unions that has been the culprit, it is always the management, from the beating of the workers on a street corner by hired Pinkerton goons in the Gulf States Paper strike to the Pullman riots, where the hired Pinkerton agents, just for the fear factor, killed people they believed were union members just walking down the street. You need to get some facts instead of that biased crap.
You want more insults? You and you hopelessly ignorant, asinine, bigoted, post serve as quite suitable insults for you dimwitted nonsense. The vulgarity you desire would distract from the depths of reason in which you squaller.
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: Lock...,
You, and the rest of the right-wing, are absolutely and religiously locked out of rationality when it comes to unions, wanting to deny people the rights they are assured by the Constitution, simply because they are members or potential members of a union.
If the Auto companies have the right to do business and make contracts with others, then the unions members and the unions, which, like the automobile giants, too are organizations of people, have exactly the same right.
Those workers provide something of value to the company, their time and skill, in trade for other things of value to them, their benefits and working conditions. The two groups certainly have the right to make legally binding contracts in trade for their services.
Except if and when those contractual agreements might impose on the rights of others, it is none of your or my business and we should have the common courtesy and grace to mind our own business. The same thing holds for the Government (by the Constitution).
Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
Secret ballot? In a business transaction? Do you similarly demand that each vote of the board of Ford or GM or in the share holders meeting be open to public view? If not, then how come you are so eager to deny the union the right to privacy? Or are you so confused that you think that votes in share holder's meetings of corporations are required to be done in public?
And that assertion that "Either you vote for the union or one of the union brothers will run a key down the side of your car." Is the very worst sort of character assignation and slander, with not one tiny bit of fact to back up the lie. None exists!
The history of labor law demonstrates that it has been union members suffered from the actions of hired goons of management that is the true story. It isn't the unions that has been the culprit, it is always the management, from the beating of the workers on a street corner by hired Pinkerton goons in the Gulf States Paper strike to the Pullman riots, where the hired Pinkerton agents, just for the fear factor, killed people they believed were union members just walking down the street. You need to get some facts instead of that biased crap.
You want more insults? You and you hopelessly ignorant, asinine, bigoted, post serve as quite suitable insults for you dimwitted nonsense. The vulgarity you desire would distract from the depths of reason in which you squaller.
I hope you never have to vote against THE UNION.
Posted by rhwdetroit on :
quote:You, and the rest of the right-wing, are absolutely and religiously locked out of rationality when it comes to unions, wanting to deny people the rights they are assured by the Constitution, simply because they are members or potential members of a union.
Not all "right-wingers" hate unions. Many belong to unions and like the unions they belong to.
quote:And that assertion that "Either you vote for the union or one of the union brothers will run a key down the side of your car." Is the very worst sort of character assignation and slander, with not one tiny bit of fact to back up the lie. None exists!
Yes, things like this DO happen. You have bad apples in every bunch.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by rhwdetroit:
quote:So, I ask again, "since when does a union have the authority to tell its members what to do or think?"
Authority or not, some do it. If you don't think they do, you are naive.
And if you think that is the norm, you are worse than naive.
Too, just because someone called a "leader" tells you to do something doesn't mean you do it. OIr are you still running about telling everyone that Saddam had nuclear bombs already mounted on guided missiles aimed at and capable of sticking inside the U.S., because dubya says so?
If you think union members do not exercise their right to refuse or ignore directions from anyone they choose, you are nor just naive, you are simple minded. Maybe you subjugate yourself to some cause or "leader", but that doesn't justify you saying union members do.
I suspect those of you that make such idiotic claims about unions have never been at a union meeting, which may well be the most purely democratic organized things in our society, because the position of the "leaders" is up for a secret ballot vote periodically and in some cases, whenever some member declares that wish. A "leader" that tries to "control" an election doesn't last. By the way, union strike votes are by secret ballot.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: Lock...,
You, and the rest of the right-wing, are absolutely and religiously locked out of rationality when it comes to unions, wanting to deny people the rights they are assured by the Constitution, simply because they are members or potential members of a union.
If the Auto companies have the right to do business and make contracts with others, then the unions members and the unions, which, like the automobile giants, too are organizations of people, have exactly the same right.
Those workers provide something of value to the company, their time and skill, in trade for other things of value to them, their benefits and working conditions. The two groups certainly have the right to make legally binding contracts in trade for their services.
Except if and when those contractual agreements might impose on the rights of others, it is none of your or my business and we should have the common courtesy and grace to mind our own business. The same thing holds for the Government (by the Constitution).
Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
Secret ballot? In a business transaction? Do you similarly demand that each vote of the board of Ford or GM or in the share holders meeting be open to public view? If not, then how come you are so eager to deny the union the right to privacy? Or are you so confused that you think that votes in share holder's meetings of corporations are required to be done in public?
And that assertion that "Either you vote for the union or one of the union brothers will run a key down the side of your car." Is the very worst sort of character assignation and slander, with not one tiny bit of fact to back up the lie. None exists!
The history of labor law demonstrates that it has been union members suffered from the actions of hired goons of management that is the true story. It isn't the unions that has been the culprit, it is always the management, from the beating of the workers on a street corner by hired Pinkerton goons in the Gulf States Paper strike to the Pullman riots, where the hired Pinkerton agents, just for the fear factor, killed people they believed were union members just walking down the street. You need to get some facts instead of that biased crap.
You want more insults? You and you hopelessly ignorant, asinine, bigoted, post serve as quite suitable insults for you dimwitted nonsense. The vulgarity you desire would distract from the depths of reason in which you squaller.
I hope you never have to vote against THE UNION.
Lockbrain,
I have voted both for and against a union. If the need ever again comes to pass, I'll do it again and I won't dodge the question which way I voted from the others voting.
Posted by rhwdetroit on :
quote:And if you think that is the norm, you are worse than naive.
you missed my later post. No, it is not the norm. You have bad people in every bunch.
You need to quit making assumptions. Quit twisting what people say to suit your purpose. You do it all throughout the message boards. Also, I think you have issues and you need help. Just because someone doesn't think like you or agree with you doesn't mean they are in any way less intelligent than you. Better yet, don't get help, you're more entertaining this way.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by rhwdetroit:
quote:You, and the rest of the right-wing, are absolutely and religiously locked out of rationality when it comes to unions, wanting to deny people the rights they are assured by the Constitution, simply because they are members or potential members of a union.
Not all "right-wingers" hate unions. Many belong to unions and like the unions they belong to.
quote:And that assertion that "Either you vote for the union or one of the union brothers will run a key down the side of your car." Is the very worst sort of character assignation and slander, with not one tiny bit of fact to back up the lie. None exists!
Yes, things like this DO happen. You have bad apples in every bunch.
Yes.
And the constant assertion by the the vast majority of the far right-wing extremist that union member are required, by whatever influence, to obey the directive of some "leader", is as absurd and simple minded as to say that every conservative is in lock step behind the will of Fat Rush the Doper and dubya, The Great Prevaricator.
Posted by Lockman on :
Must have an old car you don't care about.
All the union members I know tell me the union takes political stands and fully expect union members to vote the way of union leaders.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by rhwdetroit:
quote:And if you think that is the norm, you are worse than naive.
you missed my later post. No, it is not the norm. You have bad people in every bunch.
You need to quit making assumptions. Quit twisting what people say to suit your purpose. You do it all throughout the message boards. Also, I think you have issues and you need help. Just because someone doesn't think like you or agree with you doesn't mean they are in any way less intelligent than you. Better yet, don't get help, you're more entertaining this way.
I do indeed have issues. But I don't need help.
Perhaps it is you that needs a bit of buffering of your interpretations. Mine are not the excess of opinions or the assumption. it is to the excesses of assumption and to biased assertions that I direct my post, such as the assertion that union members are required to obey some "leader". It is a false and reckless assertion.
It is equally reckless to allow such a bigoted assertion to lie unchallenged or to then challenge the challenge of the lie. How many wasted years did it lay acceptable to make and accept claims that dependents of Africans could not handle responsible positions and were not worthy of being equal? Bigotry thrives on being met by silence! Perhaps it is sinful to encourage bigotry by asserting that to challenge bigotry is wrong?
Posted by glassman on :
The history of labor law demonstrates that it has been union members suffered from the actions of hired goons of management that is the true story. It isn't the unions that has been the culprit, it is always the management, from the beating of the workers on a street corner by hired Pinkerton goons in the Gulf States Paper strike to the Pullman riots, where the hired Pinkerton agents, just for the fear factor, killed people they believed were union members just walking down the street.
this is true.
not only has "corporate America" done this but more.
corporate America even buys labor from jailors.
Prison labor on the rise in US By Alan Whyte and Jamie Baker 8 May 2000 There are presently 80,000 inmates in the US employed in commercial activity, some earning as little as 21 cents an hour. The US government program Federal Prison Industries (FPI) currently employs 21,000 inmates, an increase of 14 percent in the last two years alone. FPI inmates make a wide variety of products—such as clothing, file cabinets, electronic equipment and military helmets—which are sold to federal agencies and private companies. FPI sales are $600 million annually and rising, with over $37 million in profits.
btw? you may notice that this increase was under Clinton Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Must have an old car you don't care about.
All the union members I know tell me the union takes political stands and fully expect union members to vote the way of union leaders.
One may inspect the sun to rice in the south, but that doesn't compel its cooperation.
The union doesn't assume any political position until the question has been placed before the membership, filly discussed, with all pro and com arguments considered and worked through, and the position has been voted on by the membership. Once that tally has been made, isn't it natural to assume that position will be the choice of the membership?
Also, it is bluntly obvious that you are entirely anti-union and would refuse to listen to the normal union member if he told you how things are done, so I'd doubt any halfway bright and reasonably honest union member would bother conversing about activities of the union with you, much as he wouldn't consort with irrational foreign sympathizers, though he might treat them politely, passing the time of day and such out of common courtesy. So I wouldn't place much value in what you get from "All the union members (you) know..."
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee:
quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Must have an old car you don't care about.
All the union members I know tell me the union takes political stands and fully expect union members to vote the way of union leaders.
One may inspect the sun to rice in the south, but that doesn't compel its cooperation.
The union doesn't assume any political position until the question has been placed before the membership, filly discussed, with all pro and com arguments considered and worked through, and the position has been voted on by the membership. Once that tally has been made, isn't it natural to assume that position will be the choice of the membership?
Also, it is bluntly obvious that you are entirely anti-union and would refuse to listen to the normal union member if he told you how things are done, so I'd doubt any halfway bright and reasonably honest union member would bother conversing about activities of the union with you, much as he wouldn't consort with irrational foreign sympathizers, though he might treat them politely, passing the time of day and such out of common courtesy. So I wouldn't place much value in what you get from "All the union members (you) know..."
You're such a toole! You talk out of your azz like you actually know something. Ha
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: The history of labor law demonstrates that it has been union members suffered from the actions of hired goons of management that is the true story. It isn't the unions that has been the culprit, it is always the management, from the beating of the workers on a street corner by hired Pinkerton goons in the Gulf States Paper strike to the Pullman riots, where the hired Pinkerton agents, just for the fear factor, killed people they believed were union members just walking down the street.
this is true.
not only has "corporate America" done this but more.
corporate America even buys labor from jailors.
Prison labor on the rise in US By Alan Whyte and Jamie Baker 8 May 2000 There are presently 80,000 inmates in the US employed in commercial activity, some earning as little as 21 cents an hour. The US government program Federal Prison Industries (FPI) currently employs 21,000 inmates, an increase of 14 percent in the last two years alone. FPI inmates make a wide variety of products—such as clothing, file cabinets, electronic equipment and military helmets—which are sold to federal agencies and private companies. FPI sales are $600 million annually and rising, with over $37 million in profits.
btw? you may notice that this increase was under Clinton ;)
When I lived in Nashville, my next door neighbor was the accountant in charge of the State's prison factories. Thus, he acted as the Chief Executive, of a quite large industrial component of this Nations manufacturing strength.
The Tennessee State Prison Industries built all the furniture that goes into State offices and such, held the contract with most of the heavy equipment factories in the country and some in Canada and Europe for welding together the "scoops" and similar such devices that go onto bulldozers and trenching tools and such and had exclusive contracts for many other sorts of manufacturing, from "made in America" womens clothing to Spiral notebooks and on and on. The workers might get fifteen or 20 cents an hour, but most did the work to keep from being locked in an 8 by 10 cell with some other person most opf the day and night.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:Originally posted by bdgee:
quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Must have an old car you don't care about.
All the union members I know tell me the union takes political stands and fully expect union members to vote the way of union leaders.
One may inspect the sun to rice in the south, but that doesn't compel its cooperation.
The union doesn't assume any political position until the question has been placed before the membership, filly discussed, with all pro and com arguments considered and worked through, and the position has been voted on by the membership. Once that tally has been made, isn't it natural to assume that position will be the choice of the membership?
Also, it is bluntly obvious that you are entirely anti-union and would refuse to listen to the normal union member if he told you how things are done, so I'd doubt any halfway bright and reasonably honest union member would bother conversing about activities of the union with you, much as he wouldn't consort with irrational foreign sympathizers, though he might treat them politely, passing the time of day and such out of common courtesy. So I wouldn't place much value in what you get from "All the union members (you) know..."
You're such a toole! You talk out of your azz like you actually know something. Ha
Oh, I do actually know something.
Its sad you know so little.
But, then, that's to be expected from someone that has so closed a mind that he has refused to learn facts and chooses to preach lies and propaganda..
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee:
quote:Originally posted by glassman: The history of labor law demonstrates that it has been union members suffered from the actions of hired goons of management that is the true story. It isn't the unions that has been the culprit, it is always the management, from the beating of the workers on a street corner by hired Pinkerton goons in the Gulf States Paper strike to the Pullman riots, where the hired Pinkerton agents, just for the fear factor, killed people they believed were union members just walking down the street.
this is true.
not only has "corporate America" done this but more.
corporate America even buys labor from jailors.
Prison labor on the rise in US By Alan Whyte and Jamie Baker 8 May 2000 There are presently 80,000 inmates in the US employed in commercial activity, some earning as little as 21 cents an hour. The US government program Federal Prison Industries (FPI) currently employs 21,000 inmates, an increase of 14 percent in the last two years alone. FPI inmates make a wide variety of products—such as clothing, file cabinets, electronic equipment and military helmets—which are sold to federal agencies and private companies. FPI sales are $600 million annually and rising, with over $37 million in profits.
btw? you may notice that this increase was under Clinton
When I lived in Nashville, my next door neighbor was the accountant in charge of the State's prison factories. Thus, he acted as the Chief Executive, of a quite large industrial component of this Nations manufacturing strength.
The Tennessee State Prison Industries built all the furniture that goes into State offices and such, held the contract with most of the heavy equipment factories in the country and some in Canada and Europe for welding together the "scoops" and similar such devices that go onto bulldozers and trenching tools and such and had exclusive contracts for many other sorts of manufacturing, from "made in America" womens clothing to Spiral notebooks and on and on. The workers might get fifteen or 20 cents an hour, but most did the work to keep from being locked in an 8 by 10 cell with some other person most opf the day and night.
why don't we let prisioners build cars, who knew the answer would be so simple.
Posted by T e x on :
We would all be better served if the discussion in general--not necessarily this thread--would focus on the real problem: namely, the loss of manufacturing vs the rise of financial "products."
In other words, we used to be a nation who built things and sold stuff; now our biggest "industry" is financial...ummmm..."products."
In other words, debt.
Spending so much time blaming unions for this mess is something like blaming chickens for the rising cost of feed.
Posted by Lockman on :
I agree totally! We are a service oriented society now. I'm not blaming unions for all the problems, it just seems that sometimes workers aren't best served by their unions. I personnally would rather draw a pay check then an unemployment check. Sometimes the union forgets that without the manufacturing plant there's no work. As we are about to see in Detriot. I have a friend in the office cleaning business and he has building contracts that include union and non-union workers. He's able to hire more people and do a better service w/o union presence.
Posted by T e x on :
PS:
It's also futile to ask "the union" for its thoughts on how to get out of this mess: I'd be real surprised if there's 25--or even 10--union members in the U.S. who understand the problem well enough to articulate reasonable solutions.
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by T e x: PS:
It's also futile to ask "the union" for its thoughts on how to get out of this mess: I'd be real surprised if there's 25--or even 10--union members in the U.S. who understand the problem well enough to articulate reasonable solutions.
That may be, but I think they can recognize that their jobs are going to disappear if they don't work with the company to trim the fat.
Government jobs are the next to suffer, maybe not on the federal level but at state and local levels the economies just can't support the deals made with union workers.
Posted by osubucks30 on :
I thought this country was built with hard working people!!! Capitalism is DEAD!!!
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:Originally posted by T e x: PS:
It's also futile to ask "the union" for its thoughts on how to get out of this mess: I'd be real surprised if there's 25--or even 10--union members in the U.S. who understand the problem well enough to articulate reasonable solutions.
That may be, but I think they can recognize that their jobs are going to disappear if they don't work with the company to trim the fat.
Government jobs are the next to suffer, maybe not on the federal level but at state and local levels the economies just can't support the deals made with union workers.
well, they won't have any trouble recruiting for the military... where we gonna send them next?
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
quote:Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:Originally posted by T e x: PS:
It's also futile to ask "the union" for its thoughts on how to get out of this mess: I'd be real surprised if there's 25--or even 10--union members in the U.S. who understand the problem well enough to articulate reasonable solutions.
That may be, but I think they can recognize that their jobs are going to disappear if they don't work with the company to trim the fat.
Government jobs are the next to suffer, maybe not on the federal level but at state and local levels the economies just can't support the deals made with union workers.
well, they won't have any trouble recruiting for the military... where we gonna send them next?
I guess...
the wealthiest neighborhoods of the USA Posted by glassman on :
LOL, to guard or to round up? they don't pay that well in the military...
Posted by raybond on :
In think this is the start of state monopoly capitalism which is the start of fascism.
Nothing socialist about this at all.
Watch and see
Posted by bdgee on :
In major manufacturing plants, the management long ago realized that trying to work around or in spite of the union was hopeless and foolish. Just as it is the case of unions understanding that without the company there is no employment for the worker, without the employees, there is no manufacturing.....nothing.
As for the idea that there are less than " 25--or even 10--union members in the U.S. who understand the problem", I know more than that that now and have known more than that for decades. Major unions have in their employ entire staffs of financial experts that do exactly the same job as their counterparts do for the companies with which they work. Just as the company management, union management counts among their numbers a significant percentage with advanced degrees in labor law and business management degrees and with many years and miles of experience in those areas.
Yes, there yet are, within the membership of many unions to this day, a number of loud antagonistic fools whose only concept of "bargaining" is to confront and accuse and seek surrender as the only means of settlement they want to accept on any issue, but over the last half century, those voices seldom are heard except in early open union meetings, where the majority of the participants soon grind that thought process down so that rational approaches to "bargaining" can prevail. The silly notion that union membership is dominated by grossly undereducated and intractable semi-illiterate, muscle men, is a Hollywood fiction about as rational and viable as the ignorant movie and tv constructed belief that a shooter can stand firm and in place without suffering massive recoil, while the bullet hits and knocks the victim backward twenty feet through the air, then into and through a closed and latched hardwood door, landing ten feet beyond amongst a cloud of splinter and sawdust like particles of the shattered door. Any halfway rational person that ever sat through a high school physics class knows that Newton's laws make that impossible. High school physics courses are a common item on the resume of union members in this day and time. So are classes in civics and history, where one can learn the actual history of the labor movement, which brought us public education and, which, was fought against by 100%, and with full force, of the robber barons. When WWI and WWII, stuck up their nasty heads, it was the fact that the U.S. rather than any other nation on earth, due to public education, had a labor force sufficiently educated to handle the massive technical manufacturing that eventually determined the outcomes. And that labor force was almost totally union organized (with "leaders" that saw country first and refused to entertain thoughts of strikes in a time of national danger).
I have known both very high level union leaders and very high level management persons ("leaders"?) and have, in case after case, known them to work long and sincerely to meet and construct a workable "agreement", rather than yield to confrontation, which serves neither. The union people can and always do (there are laws to follow) stay in close contact with the membership, consulting their guidance whenever possible, while the management team is almost always constricted by some absolute and dictatorial "power" that never participates except non-publicly from the shadows to refuse to allow the management team to do other than treat the situation (and the union members and negotiators) as if the union membership is that Hollywood evil characterization of the ignorant uncultured worker out to destroy the company. (Theirs is usually a desire to "bust the damn union" and brag about it at the country club.) (Those "powers" or "bosses" almost always didn't work up to that position of power, or have any education or experience that brought them to their position, but took it by right of having control of the money, often by inheriting it from mama or daddy. They so very often are the spoiled rich kid or the the school yard bully that was that much bigger or that much meaner so that he became the schools "football hero" and never had to take or study in high school or college and actually can believe that fiction of a .357 Magnum bouncing its 6 foot 7, 280 pound, victim off a stone wall 20 feet from where he was forced into the air by the momentum of the bullet, while the 116 pound shooter hardly notices the recoil that barely makes her gun hand jump. They had no more reason to learn cooperation either....and didn't bother!)
Now consider the notion that the union members are trying to or about to cause "their jobs ... to disappear". Don't you think the jobs of the management would disappear too? The whole industry is about to disappear from our shores and go exactly where the manufacture of refrigerators and TVs and so many other items and products that once was mostly done here .... India, Korea, Japan, the Czech Republic, etc.
Blame and taking sides is absurd now!
And using this crisis as a means of union busting is a political vulgarity. That's once again the Party first mentality that brought the republican Party to bring us this destroyed economy. We need, ALL OF US, to stop the hate and maneuvering for power and control and organize to save our economy. We die as a country otherwise.
IT'S TIME FOR EVERY ONE OF US TO TOE THE LINE AND REJECT THOSE CHILDISH POLITICAL WISH LISTS AND GET ABOUT THE BUSINESS OF SAVING THIS NATION!!!!!
AND THAT EFFORT MUST START WITH JOBS, THOSE WE HAVE AND THOSE WE MUST MANAGE TO GENERATE.
Posted by T e x on :
re: the 25 or even 10--I was referring to rank n' file membership. Their up-top moggedy-mogs no doubt realize that the subprime mortgages in and of themselves are not the problem.
My larger point remains: all this discussion of unions is meaningless if the point is to discuss the possibility of socialism somehow springing forth from this credit crisis.
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: LOL, to guard or to round up? they don't pay that well in the military...
to guard...
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by T e x: re: the 25 or even 10--I was referring to rank n' file membership. Their up-top moggedy-mogs no doubt realize that the subprime mortgages in and of themselves are not the problem.
My larger point remains: all this discussion of unions is meaningless if the point is to discuss the possibility of socialism somehow springing forth from this credit crisis.
*bump*
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by T e x: re: the 25 or even 10--I was referring to rank n' file membership. Their up-top moggedy-mogs no doubt realize that the subprime mortgages in and of themselves are not the problem.
My larger point remains: all this discussion of unions is meaningless if the point is to discuss the possibility of socialism somehow springing forth from this credit crisis.
But that's not what you said!
You said, "I'd be real surprised if there's 25--or even 10--[b]union members[b] in the U.S. who understand the problem well enough to articulate reasonable solutions."
Union leaders ARE union members.
However, I WAS speaking of rank and file members when I said "High school physics courses are a common item on the resume of union members in this day and time. So are classes in civics and history".
Was there supposed to be in the the apparently intended implication that those "up-top moggedy-mogs" of the unions are not qualified or interested enough in the current situation to understand the problem of "the subprime mortgages" and the results of that problem brings to our economy? There certianly is that conclusion. Those "up-top moggedy-mogs" of the unions ARE rank and file members., That's where they come from. And it is not at all abnormal for such to be quite well qualified in economic theories and more than capable of participating in discussion and consideration of such subject matter.
However, if it is assumed that "the point is to discuss the possibility of socialism somehow springing forth from this credit crisis" and nothing more, then I would say you are right in concluding that, "all this discussion of unions is meaningless".
BUT, I wasn't so restricting my considerations. My considerations were pointed at the obvious use of irresponsible fear tactics and untrue assertions from the far right-wing anti-union political extreme in using this crises as a political weapon in an attack designed to provide no relief or repair to the damages of the financial facilities of the Nation, but instead, to further a religion like political campaign to destroy unions, with no intent to ever provide any suitable jobs for the workers whose lives will be destroyed, nor any jobs for anyone anywhere, nor any other relief of the problems stemming from the subprime mortgage mess, should their right-wing political attack succeed or fail.
What we need are attempts at solutions of the problem, NOT attempts to use the problem to swing the Nation to an attack on one part of what the Constitution describes as "the people".
In order to have much hope of successfully fending off destruction of the Nation, we need the ability to make use of the strengths and ideas (and ideals) of all of us, not just the ones left standing after their political equivalent of racial cleansing is done.
Posted by retiredat49 on :
quote:Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:Originally posted by T e x: PS:
It's also futile to ask "the union" for its thoughts on how to get out of this mess: I'd be real surprised if there's 25--or even 10--union members in the U.S. who understand the problem well enough to articulate reasonable solutions.
That may be, but I think they can recognize that their jobs are going to disappear if they don't work with the company to trim the fat.
Government jobs are the next to suffer, maybe not on the federal level but at state and local levels the economies just can't support the deals made with union workers.
Well Lockman...I have been a union member for over 30 years so I guess that I am qualified as an EXPERT on unions. I can tell you that all of your "beliefs" about unions , their leadership, and their membership is blatantly UNTRUE...
You want the unions to work with the "company" to trim the fat eh...
Well in 2007 the UAW negotiated a NEW pay scale for union workers...and we agreed to a FIFTY PERCENT reduction in pay for new hires, zero pension benefits, and the UAW now manages and funds health care...I would say that would be considered working with the company to trim the fat....when in reality the unions nor their wages ARE THE FAT...
If you are a blue collar worker, union or not, your pay cut will be coming very soon, and you can thank whoever (elitist republicans)that have been feeding you these lines of sh!t about the evil unions, for YOUR reduction in pay and benefits...
Oh and BTW...I vote for whoever the phuck I want to vote for...
Posted by Peaser on :
It's just too bad.
The union stooped as low as, and lower than those that they were "protecting" workers from.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by osubucks30: I thought this country was built with hard working people!!! Capitalism is DEAD!!!
people here were, are and will be hard workers... they just want good pay with safe conditions.. hence the existence of Unions... lest not forget about the past and how workers were poorly treated in American History especially during the Industrial age... China is now where we were back then in terms of Labor conditions...
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:If you are a blue collar worker, union or not, your pay cut will be coming very soon, and you can thank whoever (elitist republicans)that have been feeding you these lines of sh!t about the evil unions, for YOUR reduction in pay and benefits...
Retired is right about one thing - pay cuts are on the way. However, the unions and companies that allowed those ridiculous pay scales are to blame. In a global economy, workers will either compete or be out of a job.
Posted by glassman on :
In a global economy, workers will either compete or be out of a job.
and when competing means living on 300$/week?
how come all the "free market" people can't calculate the simple math on that....
in 2006? the avg yearly income in china was 2025$, if it went up it's going down now..
so tell me oh "free market" genius? how many Americans can live on that?
my dog can't.
urabn workers in China averaged 25,000 yuan last year... that's 3,662 US$ for CITYfolk in China...
BTW? that includes white collar workers too..
better start figuring out how to get more people into your rentals and charge by the room.
the highest average salary of employees in Beijing's securities companies exceeded one million yuan (142,450 U.S. dollars) while the lowest was less than 40,000 yuan (5,698 U.S. dollars). Posted by T e x on :
spirited discussion, fellas...
Happy T-day.
Will check back in after the main feed, perhaps when I'm negotiating a smoked-turkey sandwich with extra mayo and plenty o' pepper.
I just got back from Colorado and wish you all the very best holiday for you and your circle of friends, family, in-laws and outlaws.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: In a global economy, workers will either compete or be out of a job.
and when competing means living on 300$/week?
how come all the "free market" people can't calculate the simple math on that....
in 2006? the avg yearly income in china was 2025$, if it went up it's going down now..
so tell me oh "free market" genius? how many Americans can live on that?
my dog can't.
urabn workers in China averaged 25,000 yuan last year... that's 3,662 US$ for CITYfolk in China...
BTW? that includes white collar workers too..
better start figuring out how to get more people into your rentals and charge by the room.
the highest average salary of employees in Beijing's securities companies exceeded one million yuan (142,450 U.S. dollars) while the lowest was less than 40,000 yuan (5,698 U.S. dollars).
I understand what you are saying Glass but what is the standard or cost of living in China compared to us? ... Perhaps what they make is good for where they live... so those numbers are not comparable...
Posted by glassman on :
Perhaps what they make is good for where they live... so those numbers are not comparable...
they are comparable when you consider that the exchange rate of the currencies is NOT "free-market"...
i've been beating this drum for years, and everybody is hypnotised by the idea of cheap cargo...
i've been telling people right her since i began posting that we would end up right where we are are and worse if we continued to allow the Government of China to manipulate the value of their currency...
it's been good for Wal-Mart and now it seem you can buy anything from China, and the quality is much better too...
but the only way we are going to avoid a serious depression in the US is if the Yuan is revalued to EQUAL (1 for 1) the dollar and soon.
the Govt of China is not Free-Market and has no intention of participating in a free market. they subsidise all energy over there. I can't melt a pound of glass for what they sell and ship finished products for.
and no i am not competing with them. the point is that anybody who is competing with them can't as long as their currency is not free-floating...
i don't buy anything Chinese unless i have no choice. and it's got nothing to do with racism or xenophobia. it's becuase i don't wan to live in a third world country.
Posted by retiredat49 on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
i don't buy anything Chinese unless i have no choice. and it's got nothing to do with racism or xenophobia. it's becuase i don't wan to live in a third world country.
I'm with you Glass...if I can buy American...I do
otherwise it's like biting the hand that feeds ya...
people in this country had better wake up real soon and start supporting their own kind, or it WILL come back and bite em in the azz sooner or later...
oh wait, it already has!
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:In a global economy, workers will either compete or be out of a job.
and when competing means living on 300$/week?
how come all the "free market" people can't calculate the simple math on that....
in 2006? the avg yearly income in china was 2025$, if it went up it's going down now..
so tell me oh "free market" genius? how many Americans can live on that?
I agree with you Glass. So, what is the answer? How do we get the genie back in the bottle?
If US workers (especially union workers) continue to receive pay that is non-competitive, the companies will go bankrupt. On the other hand, if we did away with foreign imports (or charged a high tariff on them), our standard of living would decrease also. Just look at what Walmart has done for the standard of living in this country. You can buy a pair of jeans at Walmart for $8! How much more would they cost if produced in the US? That is true of thousands of products that they offer.
Posted by glassman on :
first off? the unions are not the problem.
divide and conquer ring any bells?
and i'm not a union person.
second off? tariffs are not a problem if they are executed properly.
you think WalMart has made your life better?
you are only looking at half the equation. what's in your pocket when you leave the store.
how about we charge an import tax based on the value of the exchange rate of the currency.
Wal-Mart’s Chinese Purchases Hold at $9 billion
Though the cost of Chinese goods have increased as a result of the yuan’s rise against the U.S. dollar, U.S. mega-retailer Wal-Mart said its purchases of Chinese-made shoes, toys, and other goods would hold steady this year at $9 billion. The AP report, hosted at CNNMoney.com, also says the retailer is expanding its operations within China - it opened 30 stores last year, bringing its mainland total to 102.
Wal-Mart’s president for China, Ed Chan, declined to give sales forecasts or the number of new stores that will open in 2008. But they said China sales were growing faster than the 18% rate for the rest of Wal-Mart’s non-U.S. operations.
Wal-Mart officials say they are maintaining good relations with the Chinese government,
despite the company’s efforts to quell unionizing efforts by the government-sanctioned All-China Federation of Trade Unions in 2006.
Chinese workers are going to UNIONIZE WalMart when America couldn't, watch and learn.
My bet is that China will try to take over WalMart in the next decade...
say you can force the Yuan to equal th edollar? (a nightmare for the Chinese govt) if a chinese worker is making 25,000 Yuan? that's still half the US$ median household income of 46,000$.
so? we enforce across the board import tariffs on all Chinese products that revalue the Yuan to the dollar.
the current exchange rate is .14 cents to the Yuan. that's a HUGE tax right? if we charged 100% import tax? who would lose? the IMPORTER would.
i'm not going to spend a year trying to come up with an average profit margin for the importers of Chinese goods, but that's where most of th eprofit from Chinese trade goes:
March 2008 Why Profit Zero Works in China by Paul Midler
Profit zero scenarios are a product of Chinese business history. Back when state-owned factories acted in place of a social welfare program, manufacturing’s primary goal was not profitability, but job creation. Throughout the 1980s and into the 1990s, when the planned economy failed to stimulate enough job growth to approach full employment, the Communist Party looked to private industry, and entrepreneurs who could put people to work garnered a degree of political clout with government officials. Profitability was important, but it took a back seat to the achievement of political aims. Manufacturers consequently found themselves motivated to sign cross-border agreements with foreign companies. The factory that manufactured a shirt for $5 willingly sold it to the importer at cost, even knowing that the importer was selling it for as much as $25 or $35. Manufacturers understood the game. There was an element of risk in trying to squeeze a margin out of a large importer, and it was an especially unwise thing to do from an economic standpoint if that customer had a product that was unique.
the Chinese are trying to build a job base. they are not looking at Capitalism like we do.
why are they doing this? to build a Communist Nation with real power.
and the American businesses that are "cooperating" with them for that 500% markup are the ones that are destroying our country.
people say that's how capitalism is supposed to work. a few hit the lotto, become fabulously wealthy and hire all the serfs to work for them? sorry, that's not Capitalism, it's Feudalism. a feudal Lord rules his/her Feifdom.
if we cahrged 100% tarriffs on all Chinese imports? the only people hurt would be the middle men. middle men are important, i'm not against them, i'm just saying that they have been taking too much "cut"...
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: I'm with you Glass...if I can buy American...I do
otherwise it's like biting the hand that feeds ya...
people in this country had better wake up real soon and start supporting their own kind, or it WILL come back and bite em in the azz sooner or later...
oh wait, it already has!
When American quality is as good or better then Japanese quality for example.... then I'll buy American... till then I will buy whoever has the better quality... be it American, Japanese, Mars or Venus...
I refuse to buy inferior quality in the name of "supporting my kind"...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Perhaps what they make is good for where they live... so those numbers are not comparable...
they are comparable when you consider that the exchange rate of the currencies is NOT "free-market"...
i've been beating this drum for years, and everybody is hypnotised by the idea of cheap cargo...
i've been telling people right her since i began posting that we would end up right where we are are and worse if we continued to allow the Government of China to manipulate the value of their currency...
it's been good for Wal-Mart and now it seem you can buy anything from China, and the quality is much better too...
but the only way we are going to avoid a serious depression in the US is if the Yuan is revalued to EQUAL (1 for 1) the dollar and soon.
the Govt of China is not Free-Market and has no intention of participating in a free market. they subsidise all energy over there. I can't melt a pound of glass for what they sell and ship finished products for.
and no i am not competing with them. the point is that anybody who is competing with them can't as long as their currency is not free-floating...
i don't buy anything Chinese unless i have no choice. and it's got nothing to do with racism or xenophobia. it's becuase i don't wan to live in a third world country.
No offense Glass,but you and others are under the illusion that other countries should play by our rules... and the reality is no they don't have to. They are their own country and they play by their own rules much like we do all the time.
They are in competition with us like every country is with each other. Whether you admit it or not America is arrogant in that it thinks everyone in this world should conform to our ways. It's what makes us be disliked around the world. You do not hear Japan, Germany and other countries say or demand that America must conform to their ways do you? Of course not and so it is with China. China never said they were Capitalist so tell me why should they float their currency when it's not their way? Because it is hurting us? Not a good enough excuse, especially in their eyes. It's working for them so why should they?
Anyways floating currency notwithstanding the salaries/wages they make most likely a good living for them. They can pay rent, buy food, clothes etc.. the Necessities.. and in the end in the Chinese mind (not the American mind) that is what is most important. Our country is materialistic so when we can't buy the latest TV or whatever we tend to call trade/currency competition unfair...
I can't speak for all Chinese but I can speak for one Chinese friend i have in China who works for a Medical clinic of some sort. Her and her husband are living better then before in a new apartment etc. and were able to send for their daughter from their hometown because now they can afford to. They are now raising her and not the grandparents. So again like i said $3,000 or whatever is no living here but in China it probably is if all you need is the necessities of life like food, shelter, clothing etc. & the cost of living is way lower over there...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:STFU... azzhole.. hope u get cancer and suffer like my brother is without a doctor
...and there we have the hatred by the socialists. They talk about tolerance, but hate everyone that doesn't parrot their socialist ideas.
Nothing political about my statement to you... It's just a real human telling an azzhole whose not to go f*ck himself... simple as that...
Posted by glassman on :
So again like i said $3,000 or whatever is no living here but in China it probably is if all you need is the necessities of life like food, shelter, clothing etc. & the cost of living is way lower over there...
it's only cheaper over there because the currency is manipulated. it's not that hard to comprehend.
trade 1$ for 1 Yuan? and it's becomes eqaulised.
as for having to send for their child? do you know why? because they were living in sex-segregated dormitories until they got their new apartment.
dormitories provided by the company as apart of their pay. which is subsidised by the state.
they may be "happy" but you cannot equate how they live to our lifestyle in any way shape or form.
and i for one don't want to live like that, i don't think anybody in America wants to.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Why would you say Latin America has been in poverty for so long?
The inequalities between rich and poor. The rich in those countries really do believe that by keeping the majority of the population poor they will stay rich or become richer plus keep the political power. Glass has already stated this. Remember pretty much every single Latin American country has no middle class, just rich or poor. Especially in Central America imo. Someday imo this will all burst when the poor will not take it anymore. It has in the past. What the Rich in those countries do not get is that if they solve the poverty problems or minimize them and work to make the poor middle class it would only enrich the rich people even more because this new middle class will be able to afford even more goods and services of which the Rich will reap the awards because they own the goods and services. It is how America became very rich because of the creation of the Middle Class.
quote:As far as you personal problems with your brother I still wish him well, if you don't accept those wishes that's totally up to you.
Accepted. TY.
quote:Is the government where your brother lives offering any relief?
Political unrest, corruption, ecomonic meltdown (worst then ours) etc.. etc.. does not offer any relief to anyone in that country... you can read about the situation in that country in this english newspaper that is distributed in Costa Rica to avoid censorship, attacks etc.:
quote:Originally posted by glassman: it's only cheaper over there because the currency is manipulated. it's not that hard to comprehend.
trade 1$ for 1 Yuan? and it's becomes eqaulised.
Equalized for whom? for us? Again that is no reason for them to do so... it is no benefit to them only for us... again you think they should conform to us... they are their own country and not ours...
quote:as for having to send for their child? do you know why? because they were living in sex-segregated dormitories until they got their new apartment.
dormitories provided by the company as apart of their pay. which is subsidised by the state.
they may be "happy" but you cannot equate how they live to our lifestyle in any way shape or form.
and i for one don't want to live like that, i don't think anybody in America wants to.
Wow my friend. No offense but you truely just show your ignorance and sounded like PMS in that statement. You think you know about China when you don't. You read sources that are probably biased or propaganda. I do not say that those things do not happen in China but to say that you know what my friends' situation is, is a very IGNORANT statement.
They lived in a village away from Shanghai poor. So they moved to Shanghai to look for better jobs and left the care of their daughter to her parents. The little girls' grandparents. The Chinese Gov't did not move my friend to Shanghai and for your information they did not live in a sex-segregated apartment in Shanghai. They are a married couple.
Oh by the way the company/medical clinic she works for is Western owned and not Chinese Gov't/state owned. There are no "sex-segregated" apartments.You really are believing everything you are reading and that is sad because not everything you read in any source in this world is true.
The reason for the new apartment is because her salary increased and they can afford a better apartment. So they moved to a new one. Simple as that.The apartment is not company owned nor is it a "dormitory". It is a privately owned apartment building.
As for their daughter, they sent for her because when they first moved to Shanghai they could not afford to bring her with them. Much like here in America when someone from the Midwest leaves the care of their children to the grandparents while they seek work in the big cities. Then they send for their children when they can afford to. Simple as that. Nothing else about it. You read too much into it.
Oh by the way her husband works for a Web Design business and not for the medical clinic. And what constitutes happy? To be materialistic? Again you do not know my friends and are making assumptions. They are no longer poor and I would say they are Middle Class by Chinese standards and ours probably. For some reason you have this image that they live in a overcrowded shack with no TV's, telephones or other materialistic things we obsess over lol I have seen their apartment in webcam and trust me it is equalivent to a good apartment here in the U.S.
They are happy because their family is together (husband, wife, daughter and grandparents), living a better life then they did in their village.With all the necessities of life (food, shelter, clothing etc.) and some luxuries. They are where we were when Middle Class America started here just after WW2. Anyways that is happiness Glass. To have the family together, not be poor anymore and live a good, decent life. Happiness is not measured by how many HD/plasma TV's you own.
And that is HAPPY in any country including our own.
Posted by glassman on :
Equalized for whom? for us? Again that is no reason for them to do so... it is no benefit to them only for us... again you think they should conform to us... they are their own country and not ours...
uh, what do you mean for US? China doesn't allow it's currency to trade freely.
simply put? they sell their goods cheaper to US because they fix the rate of exchange.
they do this because they do not have enough customers out of their 1.2 BILLION people to pay what we do for things.
they cannot develop their middle class without US dollars.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli: [QUOTE]Wow my friend. No offense but you truely just show your ignorance and sounded like PMS in that statement. You think you know about China when you don't. You read sources that are probably biased or propaganda. I do not say that those things do not happen in China but to say that you know what my friends' situation is, is a very IGNORANT statement.
They lived in a village away from Shanghai poor. So they moved to Shanghai to look for better jobs and left the care of their daughter to her parents. The little girls' grandparents. The Chinese Gov't did not move my friend to Shanghai and for your information they did not live in a sex-segregated apartment in Shanghai. They are a married couple.
Oh by the way the company/medical clinic she works for is Western owned and not Chinese Gov't/state owned. There are no "sex-segregated" apartments.You really are believing everything you are reading and that is sad because not everything you read in any source in this world is true.
The reason for the new apartment is because her salary increased and they can afford a better apartment. So they moved to a new one. Simple as that.The apartment is not company owned nor is it a "dormitory". It is a privately owned apartment building.
As for their daughter, they sent for her because when they first moved to Shanghai they could not afford to bring her with them. Much like here in America when someone from the Midwest leaves the care of their children to the grandparents while they seek work in the big cities. Then they send for their children when they can afford to. Simple as that. Nothing else about it. You read too much into it.
Oh by the way her husband works for a Web Design business and not for the medical clinic. And what constitutes happy? To be materialistic? Again you do not know my friends and are making assumptions. They are no longer poor and I would say they are Middle Class by Chinese standards and ours probably. For some reason you have this image that they live in a overcrowded shack with no TV's, telephones or other materialistic things we obsess over lol I have seen their apartment in webcam and trust me it is equalivent to a good apartment here in the U.S.
They are happy because their family is together (husband, wife, daughter and grandparents), living a better life then they did in their village.With all the necessities of life (food, shelter, clothing etc.) and some luxuries. They are where we were when Middle Class America started here just after WW2. Anyways that is happiness Glass. To have the family together, not be poor anymore and live a good, decent life. Happiness is not measured by how many HD/plasma TV's you own.
And that is HAPPY in any country including our own.
LOL. so i am wrong in one case out of 100 million? 99.9% of chinese peasants that come to the city live in company owned dorms. you think i don't have Chinese friends?
furthermore? i do not get my info from any one source, i actually know and have known quite a few very well educated Chinese Natioanls living in and working in America legally.
your friends may be happy, but they won't be coming to visit the US any time soon on a vacation because of the exchange rate. it's all relative, forcing the Yuan to trade freely would not destroy their way of life, but not forcing it is going to destroy everybody in the US's way of life.
my point is very specific. US labor cannot compete with the Chinese govt, and all of these people screeching about how bad unions are and wanting free trade with third world countries are cutting off their own noses to spite our faces.
There are no "sex-segregated" apartments.
sorry, but you are very very wrong,
When Wal-Mart and the Chinese dormitory labour regime meet: a study of three toy factories in China
Authors: Ngai Pun a; Xiaomin Yu b Affiliations: a Department of Applied Social Sciences at The Hong Kong Polytechnic University, b Institute of Social Development & Public Policy at Beijing Normal University, China
Abstract This paper analyses the characteristics of the dormitory labour regime in China's post-socialist period and the collusion of this regime in the process of the 'Wal-Martization' of global toy production. This collusion has shaped labour relations and CSR labour practices in China. This paper focuses on three factories, located in the industrial zone of Shenzhen, South China, that supply toys to Wal-Mart. It begins with an examination of the dormitory labour regime supporting China's exports and then investigates the 'Wal-Martization' of the global toy industry. The effect of Wal-Mart's bargain-driven business model on the dormitory labour regime has reshaped China as 'the world's workshop' and changed its position in the international division of labour. An analysis of the nature and characteristics of Wal-Mart's corporate social responsibility (CSR) model, which is based on providing only the 'legal minimum,' and its impact on factory labour relations in China will follow.
notice this written by and for Chinese?
not propaganda at all...
Posted by glassman on :
the tiniest tip of the iceberg:
China to crack down on illegal labor (Xinhua) Updated: 2007-06-28 09:07
China will launch a nationwide crackdown on illegal labor practices from July to August, focusing on small brick kilns, coal mines and workshops, the Ministry of Labor and Social Security said on Wednesday.
The two-month crackdown comes as the issue of forced labor in brick kilns in the country's northern Shanxi Province shocked the country.
Investigations into slavery and forced labor will be another focus of the campaign.
Necessary medical care and compensation should be given to the rescued slave laborers, the notice said, noting that government officials involving in forced labor scandals would be punished severely.
A total of 359 people, including 12 children, have been rescued from illegal brick kilns in Shanxi province, the joint investigation group announced last Friday.
China Cracks Down on Child Labor Eight ministries, including the Ministry of Public Security and Ministry of Labor and Social Security, sent out a notice recently calling to carry out the Regulation on Banning Child Labor and to establish an employee registration and verification system. The notice also demands the crack down on employers who hire child labor.
The newly-made Regulation on Banning Child Labor has been in force since December 1, 2002. The regulation is of great importance for the rectification of the market economy, protection of teenager’s mental and physical health and protection of children’s legal rights.
where we were at the end of WW2? hardly, child labor was not legal just a few years before the end of WW2...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Equalized for whom? for us? Again that is no reason for them to do so... it is no benefit to them only for us... again you think they should conform to us... they are their own country and not ours...
uh, what do you mean for US? China doesn't allow it's currency to trade freely.
simply put? they sell their goods cheaper to US because they fix the rate of exchange.
they do this because they do not have enough customers out of their 1.2 BILLION people to pay what we do for things.
they cannot develop their middle class without US dollars.
again why should they trade it freely? Products are cheaper for their citizens as well as other countries by their method...
They have enough customers that are becoming more and more middle class as their cities become bigger and bigger like Shanghai...
they can develop their middle class without U.S. dollars... by Euro's instead lol anyways over time they will not need foreign currency.. they are in the beginning stages of developing classes and the middle class is leading the way:
"Like a phoenix rising from the ashes of Communism, the last few years have seen the stunning growth of a flourishing Chinese middle class. Ten years ago, this group did not even exist. Today its core of independent businessmen has been joined by a growing number of private-sector lawyers, artists and employees of joint-venture companies."http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9502E3D81F3DF93AA25755C0A96E95826 0 Posted by glassman on :
again why should they trade it freely?
we have no business doing business with them if they don't. that's our choice. and that's my point.
anybody who tries to tell you that communism is dying in China is either self-deluded or lying.
there is no free-market anything in China.
ask Tibetans what they think?
your article is ten years old and wishful thinking...
Posted by glassman on :
Grinding poverty defies China's boom Published: January 13, 2008
YANGMIAO, China: When she gets sick, Li Enlan, 78, picks herbs from the woods that grow nearby instead of buying modern medicines.
This is not the result of some philosophical choice, though. She has never seen a doctor and, like many residents of this area, lives in a meager barter economy, seldom coming into contact with cash.
"We eat somehow, but it's never enough," Li said. "At least we're not starving."
Here in Henan's rural Gushi County, only 73,000 of 1.4 million farmers fall below the official poverty level of $94 a year, which is supposed to be enough to cover basic needs, including maintaining a daily diet of 2,000 calories.
Many more people in this part of Henan subsist between the official poverty line and the $1 a day standard long used by the World Bank.
Last month, the World Bank's estimate of the number of poor people in China was tripled to 300 million from 100 million, after a new survey of prices altered the picture of what a dollar could buy. Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: LOL. so i am wrong in one case out of 100 million? 99.9% of chinese peasants that come to the city live in company owned dorms. you think i don't have Chinese friends?
And what is wrong with a company providing shelther for their employees? Wish my company did lol
quote:furthermore? i do not get my info from any one source, i actually know and have known quite a few very well educated Chinese Natioanls living in and working in America legally.
Thats weird... whenever we discuss China I always ask you to make friends with Chinese and you always say to me you do not need to be friends with them and do not have any... now all of a sudden you have Chinese friends surrounding you... which one is it? I have Chinese friends here and abroad and have always said I had.
quote:your friends may be happy, but they won't be coming to visit the US any time soon on a vacation because of the exchange rate. it's all relative, forcing the Yuan to trade freely would not destroy their way of life, but not forcing it is going to destroy everybody in the US's way of life.
Again, I am not disputing it is hurtful to the U.S. What I am disputing is that China does not have to conform to our wants when it comes to the exchange rate. As for my friends, we'll they plan to visit me sometime in the future so don't worry about them.They are doing just fine. Oh and btw even though they are difficult to sell to because they are used to bargaining a price down to almost nothing in their culture but where i work we get alot of visiting Chinese nationals with cash coming out of their azzes. So trust me the exchange rate is not hurting them.
quote:my point is very specific. US labor cannot compete with the Chinese govt, and all of these people screeching about how bad unions are and wanting free trade with third world countries are cutting off their own noses to spite our faces.
I never disagreed with you except to say it is not in the Chinese best interest to do things our way as much as you would like them to do. There is no reason for them to.
quote: There are no "sex-segregated" apartments.
sorry, but you are very very wrong,
When Wal-Mart and the Chinese dormitory labour regime meet: a study of three toy factories in China
Authors: Ngai Pun a; Xiaomin Yu b Affiliations: a Department of Applied Social Sciences at The Hong Kong Polytechnic University, b Institute of Social Development & Public Policy at Beijing Normal University, China
Abstract This paper analyses the characteristics of the dormitory labour regime in China's post-socialist period and the collusion of this regime in the process of the 'Wal-Martization' of global toy production. This collusion has shaped labour relations and CSR labour practices in China. This paper focuses on three factories, located in the industrial zone of Shenzhen, South China, that supply toys to Wal-Mart. It begins with an examination of the dormitory labour regime supporting China's exports and then investigates the 'Wal-Martization' of the global toy industry. The effect of Wal-Mart's bargain-driven business model on the dormitory labour regime has reshaped China as 'the world's workshop' and changed its position in the international division of labour. An analysis of the nature and characteristics of Wal-Mart's corporate social responsibility (CSR) model, which is based on providing only the 'legal minimum,' and its impact on factory labour relations in China will follow. notice this written by and for Chinese?
not propaganda at all...
Correct me if I am wrong but I do not see anything in that statement that suggests that the dormitories are separated by sex. But even if it is what you forget is their culture is different then ours. In their culture you do not live together til you are married. Many many differences in culture that again you seem to think they should follow our own culture. They do not have public affections between couples, dressing provocatively in public, sexually suggested ads etc.. etc.. I hope you get the picture now... but anyways my original statement is in your particular statement you posted there is no indication of sex-segregation.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Grinding poverty defies China's boom Published: January 13, 2008
YANGMIAO, China: When she gets sick, Li Enlan, 78, picks herbs from the woods that grow nearby instead of buying modern medicines.
This is not the result of some philosophical choice, though. She has never seen a doctor and, like many residents of this area, lives in a meager barter economy, seldom coming into contact with cash.
"We eat somehow, but it's never enough," Li said. "At least we're not starving."
Here in Henan's rural Gushi County, only 73,000 of 1.4 million farmers fall below the official poverty level of $94 a year, which is supposed to be enough to cover basic needs, including maintaining a daily diet of 2,000 calories.
Many more people in this part of Henan subsist between the official poverty line and the $1 a day standard long used by the World Bank.
Last month, the World Bank's estimate of the number of poor people in China was tripled to 300 million from 100 million, after a new survey of prices altered the picture of what a dollar could buy.
She just said they are not starving and $94 a year in that region provides for the basic needs. Excuse them if they do not need HDTV but much like us they can better their lives like my friends did... it's all a choice...
Posted by glassman on :
Thats weird... whenever we discuss China I always ask you to make friends with Chinese and you always say to me you do not need to be friends with them and do not have any... now all of a sudden you have Chinese friends surrounding you... which one is it? I have Chinese friends here and abroad and have always said I had.
uhh? i think you have the wrong glassman.
i never would have said anything like that.
i specifically told you i have refused to go there and have my work mass-produced, how would i refuse that if didn't know them? my wife is a research scientist, and we have quite a few Chinese researchers here as well...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: again why should they trade it freely?
we have no business doing business with them if they don't. that's our choice. and that's my point.
yes a choice. It's good for them and bad for us but do not think for a second China would not react if we forced their hand. We have to stop thinking in terms that were the only Superpower that can force others to our will because that is not so anymore. China is a Superpower themselves. We need them as much as they need us.
quote:anybody who tries to tell you that communism is dying in China is either self-deluded or lying.
there is no free-market anything in China.
ask Tibetans what they think?
your article is ten years old and wishful thinking...
I never said Communism is dying but what China is today is certainly not Communism anymore in the classical sense. And my prediction is it will die out in time. When that will be who knows. Could be 1 year or could be 100 years but it will happen like it did the USSR.
Btw you are correct the article is 10 years old but it does not make it any more incorrect then or now. But since your a stickler for more current information here's a more current one (i can post half a dozen similar ones if you wish?):
yes a choice. It's good for them and bad for us but do not think for a second China would not react if we forced their hand. We have to stop thinking in terms that were the only Superpower that can force others to our will because that is not so anymore. China is a Superpower themselves. We need them as much as they need us.
bull. we do not need them for anything, except profits. and that's no excuse to sell out your neighbors.
bad for US, just like i've been saying.
you made my case, thank you.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Thats weird... whenever we discuss China I always ask you to make friends with Chinese and you always say to me you do not need to be friends with them and do not have any... now all of a sudden you have Chinese friends surrounding you... which one is it? I have Chinese friends here and abroad and have always said I had.
uhh? i think you have the wrong glassman.
i never would have said anything like that.
i specifically told you i have refused to go there and have my work mass-produced, how would i refuse that if didn't know them? my wife is a research scientist, and we have quite a few Chinese researchers here as well...
Nope was you. It is only now that you are saying to me you have chinese friends.
Posted by glassman on :
Nope was you. It is only now that you are saying to me you have chinese friends.
find it. it ain't there. i've spent more than half my life living on or next to University campuses. i couldn't avoid them if i wanted to.
furhtermore? when people (anybody) start trying to convince me or anybody else to do things that they admit are not in my own best interest? i begin to wonder what is wrong with them.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
bull. we do not need them for anything, except profits. and that's no excuse to sell out your neighbors.
bad for US, just like i've been saying.
you made my case, thank you.
I didn't make your case because i never denied your case that it is bad for us. If i did say it was good for us then please quote me.
and yes you are correct. We need them for profits. Isn't that the American way? You didn't think we lived in a Democracy did you? lol Were first and foremost a Capitalist nation. Democracy is just a afterthought. Just like in China Communism is becoming an afterthought. But anyways we are about Greed and so they have become so. We taught them well in that regards.
So like I said we need them and they need us. We use each other in whatever way for the one thing that matters to both us more then anything: The almighty Dollar (we'll when it was almighty). And that is the bottom line. All else is just conversation.
Posted by glassman on :
Greed and so they have become so. We taught them well in that regards.
you need to study Chinese history.
China doesn't conquer , they ABSORB cultures.
So like I said we need them and they need us.
name me one thing they have that we need?
and don't tell me cheap labor, cuz that's my point, we don't need it.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Nope was you. It is only now that you are saying to me you have chinese friends.
find it. it ain't there. i've spent more than half my life living on or next to University campuses. i couldn't avoid them if i wanted to.
furhtermore? when people (anybody) start trying to convince me or anybody else to do things that they admit are not in my own best interest? i begin to wonder what is wrong with them.
It is there. In our PM's Glass.... but i don't paste PM's... those are private convo's between me and whomever. Just reminding you that you said it.
Posted by glassman on :
Pm it back then. cuz i'm sure it's misunderstanding.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
you need to study Chinese history.
China doesn't conquer , they ABSORB cultures.
Actually China has contributed more original culture to societies around the world then they absorb throughout it's history especially in ancient times. It is America who throughout it's history has "borrowed" from other culture and then renamed it "American". Only in the 20th Century and more so in the 21th Century has China absorbed from Western Culture but underlying that absorption is still their own original culture and always will be. Here read up on some of it. Use it as a reference only but at the bottom of the page are more links and your local library will have books on China's contribution to World culture :
and don't tell me cheap labor, cuz that's my point, we don't need it.
We'll with a population of about 1.3 billion in China, I would have to say the #1 reason for us needing them in the foreseeable future is their potentional to buy our goods and services. I know it's been stressed for years since Nixon but you did say name 1 thing and i did. We just need to change how we do it like you have said all along and I have not denied you are right about that though you seem to think I am saying to the contrary.
Btw here's an article that might interest you. It's dated but I think it is correct about Bush's damage to us and China's rise:
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Pm it back then. cuz i'm sure it's misunderstanding.
I will see if i can find it later on. Right now me watching Seattle/Dallas game. Besides you never reply to PM's anymore. You probably have a PM of mine or two from months ago. meanie. Posted by glassman on :
once i t cools off enough here to light off the furnaces? i don't have much free time..
here's the bottom line IMO.
China needs US more than we need them.
a few people in the US make ahelluvalot of money off the exchange rate.
alot of people in China are being "helped" out of poverty by being put to work.
problem is? we are broke, and a large portion of that is because we are losing too many good jobs.
a service economy doesn't last if it has import/export deficits. we do.
China will suffer from US going bust too. but not as much as we will.
that's just the math.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: once i t cools off enough here to light off the furnaces? i don't have much free time..
here's the bottom line IMO.
China needs US more than we need them.
a few people in the US make ahelluvalot of money off the exchange rate.
alot of people in China are being "helped" out of poverty by being put to work.
problem is? we are broke, and a large portion of that is because we are losing too many good jobs.
a service economy doesn't last if it has import/export deficits. we do.
China will suffer from US going bust too. but not as much as we will.
that's just the math.
I think China is a little smarter then that and are planning for the worst. They learned financial investing pretty well.
Posted by retiredat49 on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: I'm with you Glass...if I can buy American...I do
otherwise it's like biting the hand that feeds ya...
people in this country had better wake up real soon and start supporting their own kind, or it WILL come back and bite em in the azz sooner or later...
oh wait, it already has!
When American quality is as good or better then Japanese quality for example.... then I'll buy American... till then I will buy whoever has the better quality... be it American, Japanese, Mars or Venus...
I refuse to buy inferior quality in the name of "supporting my kind"...
Well...that would make you an idiot on 2 counts...
Number 1...American made cars and trucks ARE just as high of quality as japanese made...follow the link below and scroll down about halfway...You will find that Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac, and Pontiac are all higher quality vehicles than that Nissan you drive...
Number 2...by NOT supporting your own kind, you will end up in the same boat as the ones you refused to support...
That is just plain foolish...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: Well...that would make you an idiot on 2 counts...
Number 1...American made cars and trucks ARE just as high of quality as japanese made...follow the link below and scroll down about halfway...You will find that Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac, and Pontiac are all higher quality vehicles than that Nissan you drive...
Number 2...by NOT supporting your own kind, you will end up in the same boat as the ones you refused to support...
That is just plain foolish...
1. ahhh throwing in insults when I didn't even throw one at you. And to think I thought we got passed that and grew up so we can have differences of opinions without the name calling. Always knew you were an azzhole in your old age.
2. I don't care what JD Power or any study says for that matter. I have driven both American cars and Japanese cars since the day I got my license and the Japanese cars are by far more superior. Have not given me any problems or minimal while the american cars I drove always gave me problems.I also get way way way better gas mileage on my Nissan and I am quite happy about that. I drove/owned a Mercury Sable and Chevrolet. I'll stick to my Nissan thank you very much. And btw with the exception of 2 american cars the top 10 of cars with fewer problems consists of all foreign cars. That is 8 out of 10 are foreign and 2 only American. Kind of tells you something don't it?
3. Supporting a sinking ship is like us stock traders saying will go against the trend and go long when the trend clearly says to go short or into cash... in a Bear market. That is foolish and i suspect you have lost alot of $$ in your portfolio or 401K... I'm not in the same boat as the car makers... and i refuse to buy their inferior products (according to Consumer Reports which is more unbiased and neutral then JD Power)though I do support the auto bailout package to save their jobs in that way instead and to get the top executives out of the car companies who caused this disaster in the industry...
Btw didn't you work in the auto industry or at least a union and thats why you are making your idiotic statements? That would make you biased and unobjective.
Though there are some that will say American cars are just as good as Japanese on this board, there are board members that feel the same way as I do as well. If most people here are not for the auto bailout (though I am) why should anyone be buying American cars they feel are not better quality then foreign cars (that includes Japanese, German etc.)? That in itself is a bailout as well and would make a anti-auto bailout person a hyprocrite.
Anyways since you are so for supporting your own kind foolish old man, why don't you start buying up jewelry to support the industry I am in? We have bankruptcies as well as the auto industry, financial industries etc. Whitehall Jewelers is shutting down the end of the year, Friedmans shut down already, Elizabeth Taylors company is no more as well as American jewelry manufacturers etc.. etc.. guess who in the jewelry industry is surviving? Foreign companies with superior products of course.
FYI I will always go by Consumer Reports over an industry study anytime. They are more objective. Here compare:
My 98 VW gets 30 mpg. I'll keep that on the road till she croaks in a few hundred thousands more miles. It'll prolly fall apart before the engine dies. The clutch is startin' to slip, so I'll be puttin' a new one in shortly.
It helps off-set the crappy gas mileage I get hauling the boat with the my full-size GMC. I do love GMC trucks.
Posted by jordanreed on :
My 95 town car gets 29 mpg hiway...13 years later and we still put up with the same mileage? 33 mpg is what they offer now (and thats the high end)and those are half the car of mine. give me something that gets 45-50 mpg that cost about 15 grand and we can talk about advancement..until that happens , we are nothing more than sheep to the slaughter.
20 yrs ago my honda ran until the springs rusted thru the hood...and that got 32 mpg...38 yrs ago my rambler got 25 mpg and was a breeze to work on and ran til 200K miles. Nothing has changed in all this time except the price relative to income. This really p!sses me off! I dont care who makes what but give me something that I can work with!! and afford...! I know they have that tech.
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
My feet get great gas mileage. Speed isn't that hot and there is no A/C or heater but I save a lot in parking fees.
Posted by glassman on :
I dont care who makes what but give me something that I can work with!! and afford...! I know they have that tech.
JR, you just hit the nail on the head IMO.
US cars went "off-track" when the emissions laws began going into effect.
i felt like they did what they did as punishment.
their fixes were just plain strange. i used to build ford small blocks for dirt track and street, and there was never a better year for American hardware than 1969. I used to hunt hru all the junk yards buying all the "right parts" unitl they finally disappeared entirely
the only differnces between Japanese engineering and US auto engineering were that the Japanese had stricter controls on parts tolerances..
a well-balanced engine/drive train will last more than twice as long. the Japanese balanced thier factory engines much better than the US manuf.
look at the japanese bikes that can turn 18,000 rpms or so i'm told, i have never opened one up like that...
Nissan isn't known for quality, and i have owned a 300ZX and opened it up all the way many times... but that car had all kinds mechanical issues all the time. i liked working on it. it was better in it's time than comparable American cars, but that is ancient history now.
there is no real difference between US and Japanese car quality anymore
Posted by wallymac on :
there is no real difference between US and Japanese car quality anymore
True. But as long as there is a huge discrepency in resale value there will be a preception that Japanese car are better quality.
Most don't realize that the amount of cars that are sold through corporate Fleet sales to Rental agencies and other large volume buyers like the government are sold at huge discounts and have more effect on resale values than quality.
Volume buyers don't care as much about resale becuase they usually can write off the depreciation of the vehicle on taxes whereas the average consumer cannot. Japanese cars sold fleet do not discount as much as the American Manufactured cars.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: there is no real difference between US and Japanese car quality anymore
I don't know Glass... i see a difference and I don't care about price so much... to me there is a big difference in gas mileage... my Nissan has wayyyyy better gas mileage then any American car i have ever owned... and my American cars kept breaking down especially the Mercury Sable i used to own...
So to me there is a difference... without price being a bias to me...
Posted by glassman on :
what year was your sable? and how many other sables broke down alot?
the sable was built off the Ford Taurus which was not a car that broke down alot, and was the number one selling car for quite awhile.
what american car weighs as little a your Nissan?
you have to understand that the weight of the car has more to do with the gas mileage than anyhting else.
suddenly gas mileage is important until people forget again nayway...
Posted by retiredat49 on :
GM alone makes 18 different models that get 30+ mpg
Posted by bdgee on :
Gas prices went down for the election, just like 2 and 4 and 6 and 8 years ago. They will be back up.
Letting this politically driven lowering of prices distract us from the need to get away from burning fossil fuels for energy production is foolish and very very dangerous.
We MUSTY stop burning petroleum and coal for energy for a couple of reasons, only one of which is climate. The other major and equally important thing is to preserve fossil fuels in order to have it as the raw material of plastics, insecticides, and fertilizers, without either of which results in a hopeless fall to third world status for the whole world (led by us, probably).
"With food demand forecast to increase by half by 2030, the incentive to use genetic engineering to boost harvests and protect precious crops from insects and other damage has never been greater."
Good job at making your point...I must say I agree.
We also must have our own way of producing energy for security of our nation.
Posted by bdgee on :
Actually, though it is most often ignored, more petroleum is used in the U.S. to produce insecticides that is used in passenger travel. (A surprising percentage is used to make carpet!)
Also, the amount needed to produce farm chemicals and textiles (not just polyesters and nylons, but wool and cotton, etc.) is projected to more than double in the next decade and a half, far exceeding the amount used now for energy production. (Though some of that might be replaced by using such crops as corn and soybeans for those purposes, we'd still need to fertilize those crops.)
There simply isn't enough to go around and it must be conserved if we expect to even approximate our current standard of living in the future.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: what year was your sable? and how many other sables broke down alot?
the sable was built off the Ford Taurus which was not a car that broke down alot, and was the number one selling car for quite awhile.
what american car weighs as little a your Nissan?
you have to understand that the weight of the car has more to do with the gas mileage than anyhting else.
suddenly gas mileage is important until people forget again nayway...
Sables suck.. dont' get them... if you do so don't say I didn't warn ya...
Anyways as for gas mileage, it's always been important to me not just now...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Good job at making your point...I must say I agree.
We also must have our own way of producing energy for security of our nation.
Easy, we copy France...
Posted by Dardadog on :
I'm not happy that the taxpayer dollar is going to be used to bail out the Big Three, but it is something that absolutely has to be done. If Ford/GM/Chrysler should go bankrupt or close their doors the trickle down consequences would be devastating. Many of the companies that produce parts for the Big 3 would also be forced to close their doors. With hundreds of thousands of workers found jobless the entire retail industry would be left reeling from the blow. Tourism dollars would disappear. The cost of all goods and services would skyrocket in an attempt to recoup lost quantity of sales. By the way glass, how's it hangin'? Long time no see.
Posted by Dardadog on :
By the way......I think the bailout of the Big 3 will happen and I purchased a butt load of Ford stock last week when it was below $2 a share.
Posted by retiredat49 on :
Dog??? Where the he!! have you been man?
You prolly don't recognize the new handle...I used to be known as buck s t a l k e r...
Posted by T e x on :
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
continental dollars led to a gold standard, which we never should have left IMO..![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Oh and btw even though they are difficult to sell to because they are used to bargaining a price down to almost nothing in their culture but where i work we get alot of visiting Chinese nationals with cash coming out of their azzes. So trust me the exchange rate is not hurting them. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)