"Before I post this I want to qualify it with this: I am not saying this is the case but just food for thought.
With many pulling a majority if not all their Certs, could this just be a strategy that Rufus had along?"
Me and my assumptions
I thought "we" collectively assumed this (your argument) to be the case. That is, the more physical certs pulled, the fewer that can be sold, thereby retarding a "free-fall."
Further, I assumed all would recognize the devil's advocate "con" argument that any "company/insider shares" -- from wherever -- could thusly be more safely dumped (or "trickled" even)...let's say for argument's sake, while on the way to South America to see a guy 'bout some logs...
Wally, in same spirit of hey-we're-just-sittin'-round-the-table-here, am not saying that's what's happening. Simply different routes for trains-of-thought...
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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posted
One other item. The reason I am not requesting besides what I stated earlier is the fact that I have saved my buy transaction from Scottrade and now have written confirmation from them that states, If I did not request that my name be witheld from the company My name appears on the NOBO list as a beneficial owner. I think this would give me a pretty air tight case against them if it should come to that. I have left them no wiggle room. I have also recieved in the mail information from companies that I have held for a perios of time such as Proxy statement and investor packets. So, IMO, why should I request Certs. I would encourage anyone who has a Scottrade account or for that matter any other online account to send a simple email asking them if I have NonOBjectionable Owner status. It's called CYA, as Rufus might say Cover Your Butt.
quote:Originally posted by li: Tax, I just read your post, and yes your guess of my history in larger exchanges was correct .
I will never take offense to something someone says to me on a board, so no worries there.
I've only given it about five minutes of thought but, if naked shorts create air shares that increases supply in the market if I'm not mistaken. Following that unless there is enough demand to counter balance the increase in Supply artificial or not, PPS drops and Demand drops...no?
I see it may work differently in you example but the principle is still holding true. If demand was high enough for the stock shares would be traded and price would still increase, hence the run of two weeks ago, people demanded shares and paid more for them.
No Li my example and your example are the same. Supply and demand rules still apply, and always will. Problem is with Naked Shorting there is no way to know use an important number like "outstanding shares" when choosing a security for investment.
Supply is an unknown. You point out that with added supply the demand and price goes down. Well with unlimited supply good new causes the price to fall rather than climb. You can not use the numbers filed to evaluate "supply and demand" in the OTCBB. The idea of a "Free" market doen't always exist.
The larger markets do not have this problem. Books must balance and exchange seats, legal procedings and delisting from the exchange are penaltys of not following the rules and regulations. OTCBB is different, it is what the experts call "risky" or "high risk". Reason is that filing rules are less strict, costs are less significant, and regulations are pourous and lacking enforcment.
Now with all that being said you can look at CSHD's volume and PPS and see specifically how much manipulation has had a part in the current low PPS. The very day RegSHO went into effect you saw an immediate drop in volume on this stock. Legal shorting was restricted that day and the MM's complied, but the recent price walk downs that we have witnessed could only be comming from one of two places. 1. the sell off of investors who have lost confidence in a $15 reset. or 2. Illegal Naked Shorting. Why well legal shorting is still restricted, CSHD had not been off the RegSHO list for the past 43 days.
Now if you take the NOBO vs the DTC numbers you see how badly this stock is shorted so you can only imagine how badly it is illegally shorted as well as legally shorted.
My guess is that the supply of shares of CSHD has illegally increased everyday since this stock announced it's merger. The price has been held in place as best the MM can, it has not corrected itself to $21 a share which reflects 3X book value which is typical of a company with lack luster financials and uncertainty. Most healthy companies trade 4 to 5 times the book value.
Just my opinion, but I can follow up most of this with examples and solid proof of manipulation in this OTCBB stock and others.
Welcome to the OTCBB we all visit the "high risk" and potential "high reward" stocks at least once in our lives, and I am not trying to scare anyone off. Just saying that you need to adapt and adjust to survive.
Welcome thanks for your earlier questions and comentary I always encourage this type of discussion. Because the differences in the large and small exchanges are huge and should be explored in order to allow us to be better traders on both.
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quote:Originally posted by T e x: Wally thoughtfully posts:
"Before I post this I want to qualify it with this: I am not saying this is the case but just food for thought.
With many pulling a majority if not all their Certs, could this just be a strategy that Rufus had along?"
Me and my assumptions
I thought "we" collectively assumed this (your argument) to be the case. That is, the more physical certs pulled, the fewer that can be sold, thereby retarding a "free-fall."
Further, I assumed all would recognize the devil's advocate "con" argument that any "company/insider shares" -- from wherever -- could thusly be more safely dumped (or "trickled" even)...let's say for argument's sake, while on the way to South America to see a guy 'bout some logs...
Wally, in same spirit of hey-we're-just-sittin'-round-the-table-here, am not saying that's what's happening. Simply different routes for trains-of-thought...
Understood but having read the many posts concerning the pulling of Certs, I have come to the conclusion that many are doing for fear of loss. That they may not be able to participate in the buyback, dividends or even access to the realtime features that Rufus has stated as works in progress. Therefore I attempted to bring back an earlier discussion that centered on the reasons for pulling Certs. Maybe I missed something but all the recent conversation had nothing to do with my assumptions that the real reason was to in essence tie up these shares. Since I 've seen quite a few new people posting I revisited it. As I said it's just food for thought and nothing I know or could prove for certain.
posted
Although it is not in writing (unless you call the PR about the NOBO list and contacting Ben if you find yourself in a short position as being "in writting") but Rufus said on Sub penny radio that IF he were to do a buy back or anything that needed verification that you owned the shares, HE WOULD make sure that we were taken care of...unless we had some amount that might bankrupt the company...I am not worried...but there is ALWAYS the possibility.
quote:Originally posted by wallymac:
quote:Originally posted by 10of13: Wally I have mentioned the getting of CERTS as to not having such a sell off after the reset in earlier posts, as have you and other posters. I do think that "this reason" is one of the reasons that Rufus has for us getting CERTS and I also feel that it could very well be part of another plan in reducing the possibilities of the shorting of the stock..both legal and illegal What else Rufus may have planned with the CERTS I do not know... and for the record, I do not have CERTS
I understand what you are saying but something came to mind tonight in reading that they(Rufus/CSHD) is putting money aside to cover possible counterfeit shares. Why? They did not issue them they are not responsible for them. So why put money aside for a possible buyback of shares at prices up to $35 per share? Maybe just maybe that money is being put aside for those that have requested Certs and will not be able to participate in the shorts squeeze. This would be a way to counter any litigation since, afterall, people are doing this at the bequest of the CEO of CSHD. Like I said before, Just a thought.
GLTA Wally
-------------------- #1 Rule: Protect your capital! #2 Rule: Never fall for the BS on the boards!
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Just to illustrate Tax's point, if we take the numbers at dace value, CSHD now has close to 3.25 times the shares that should be there. Supply should be 30M yet it's 106M. Ok taking these numbers let's just multiply the current PPS of $2 by the amount of AirShares. The PPS should be $6.75. A far cry from what it currently sits at. Now the hard thing to factor in, is How much higher would it have gone if the additional Shares weren't there. Double maybe just 1.5 times, where would this put us. Conservatively at $10. Much closer to the the proposed reset of $15.
THis is why whenever the supply is manipulated the demand is no longer a factor you can truly gauge. Of course this is My Opinion and nothing more.
As far as I know? There's only one reason to pull certs nowadays...musical chairs: see who's standing w/o a chair.
The guy in the GLCK(E) "squeeze" claimed *all* the outstanding certs, as I recall. And *there* was a gem-dandy "squeeze-run," but I don't know of any who got caught without chairs...
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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quote:Originally posted by 10of13: Although it is not in writing (unless you call the PR about the NOBO list and contacting Ben if you find yourself in a short position as being "in writting") but Rufus said on Sub penny radio that IF he were to do a buy back or anything that needed verification that you owned the shares, HE WOULD make sure that we were taken care of...unless we had some amount that might bankrupt the company...I am not worried...but there is ALWAYS the possibility.
quote:Originally posted by wallymac:
quote:Originally posted by 10of13: Wally I have mentioned the getting of CERTS as to not having such a sell off after the reset in earlier posts, as have you and other posters. I do think that "this reason" is one of the reasons that Rufus has for us getting CERTS and I also feel that it could very well be part of another plan in reducing the possibilities of the shorting of the stock..both legal and illegal What else Rufus may have planned with the CERTS I do not know... and for the record, I do not have CERTS
I understand what you are saying but something came to mind tonight in reading that they(Rufus/CSHD) is putting money aside to cover possible counterfeit shares. Why? They did not issue them they are not responsible for them. So why put money aside for a possible buyback of shares at prices up to $35 per share? Maybe just maybe that money is being put aside for those that have requested Certs and will not be able to participate in the shorts squeeze. This would be a way to counter any litigation since, afterall, people are doing this at the bequest of the CEO of CSHD. Like I said before, Just a thought.
GLTA Wally
He also said he would take care of known owners first and if need be get a lawyer to aid those with shares that didnot appear on the NOBO list. This till creates a fear of loss. Believe me in one thing, having spent the majority of my career in Sales, the fear of loss is the great motivator. It's taught in every book on sales I ever read and I read a lot during a 30+ year career.
Please do not get me wrong. I am not saying this is a Scam, I am not saying Rufus or anyone else is dishonsest, I am only stating some possibilities, nothing more. I'd much rather discuss this than who TUT is or if TUT is a terrorist in disguise. It is much more germaine to the stock and our possible risk VS reward. Afterall I am still holding shares and have many family members that have bought a lot of shares in this company. It's all good.
As far as I know? There's only one reason to pull certs nowadays...musical chairs: see who's standing w/o a chair.
The guy in the GLCK(E) "squeeze" claimed *all* the outstanding certs, as I recall. And *there* was a gem-dandy "squeeze-run," but I don't know of any who got caught without chairs...
See Tex, I agree with you. I have never recommend that anyone get Certs because the squeeze if it comes will happen. I just want to be able to participate in it. I am not one to dream of $100+ PPS for this stock. They may happen but at this point in time with the tremendous DD many have done and unselfishly shared, I don't see the justification. It's a matter of perspective and trading style.
posted
So Wally ~ I am in total agreeance, but just to add a comment to your above statements. If a majority of the certs are pulled and this prevents a selloff (which implies price drop) and maybe forces a short squeeze (which implies a price increase). Does this mean that if everyone gets their certs then we "all" should see an opportunity to see the reset price or greater due to a stabilized price in the middle of a squeeze rather than a sharpe decline in price that negates the reset opporunity for most shareholders.
Personally I don't mind holding certs if it stabilizes the price.
Disclaimer: I am getting certs on 80% of my shares, but I base this on what I anticipate as a future price not the reset or squeeze price. I have left enough loose to recognize serious profits if this all happens as stated. I am a majority long. (Thats what she said. )
quote:Originally posted by TaxBack04: So Wally ~ I am in total agreeance, but just to add a comment to your above statements. If a majority of the certs are pulled and this prevents a selloff (which implies price drop) and maybe forces a short squeeze (which implies a price increase). Does this mean that if everyone gets their certs then we "all" should see an opportunity to see the reset price or greater due to a stabilized price in the middle of a squeeze rather than a sharpe decline in price that negates the reset opporunity for most shareholders.
Personally I don't mind holding certs if it stabilizes the price.
Disclaimer: I am getting certs on 80% of my shares, but I base this on what I anticipate as a future price not the reset or squeeze price. I have left enough loose to recognize serious profits if this all happens as stated. I am a majority long. (Thats what she said. )
Well it could but my experience with extremely loe float stocks is that MM's can manipulate them much easier. Look at stocks that do Reverse Splits. They seem to drop drastically in most case after the split because of the share structure. Of course this only happens in 80 to 90% of the case some work. If the company and other institutions do support the price then they do stabilize. It's a guessing game here as to what will happen once the reset occurs. The old risk VS reward. Right.
No I don't don't have a crystal ball that works and will tell how this will eventually pan out, yet it is because of that, that I have decided to not get Certs so that I can judge for myself and get out when the risk seems to high, or hold if the reward seems to be attainable.
quote:Originally posted by Chartwalker: ok here's one...
Egder won't be open on Monday, Rufus can't file the 10k, so with Monday being a 10k-less day, do we think we'll see a PR?...
How about the PPS?...
Any thoughts on "when" Rufus might "drop the bomb?" -and why ~
I would not be surprised to see Rufus drop a PR Monday morning at say 2 to 3 AM before the market opens. Remember that CSHD has not PRed anything regarding EcoWood. THe PR's were from EcoWood but nothing other than they were in negotiations with CSHD was said. Wouldn't it be nice for a PR to come out confirming an agreement had been reached from CSHD and showing the numbers from EcoWood's PR. I wonder how that would affect the PPS?
quote:Originally posted by Jenna: I know if the Bears win we get a 10K & a price reset this week!..............If the Bills win we get a PR, 10K, & a price rest this week!!!
posted
Correct me if I'm wrong here people, but are not the 10K and the reset to completely seperate events.
I've been listening to the replay's of this week's subpennyradio broadcasts, I clearly remember Rufus and company saying there will be practally nothing new that wasn't in an ealier 8K, just a few required boxes filled in for SEC rules and possibly some minor new contracts (or something like that).
Everyone seams to be biting their nails for the 10k thinking it will equal some big swing in PPS when they have been telling us it won't be anything special... I'm confused.
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quote:Originally posted by Spooky: Correct me if I'm wrong here people, but are not the 10K and the reset to completely seperate events.
I've been listening to the replay's of this week's subpennyradio broadcasts, I clearly remember Rufus and company saying there will be practally nothing new that wasn't in an ealier 8K, just a few required boxes filled in for SEC rules and possibly some minor new contracts (or something like that).
Everyone seams to be biting their nails for the 10k thinking it will equal some big swing in PPS when they have been telling us it won't be anything special... I'm confused.
According to what has been said, Immeidately after the 10K there will be a halt in trading and then the reset upon resumption. The waiting for the 10K is because of it being the final step prior to the reset.
quote:Originally posted by Spooky: Correct me if I'm wrong here people, but are not the 10K and the reset to completely seperate events.
I've been listening to the replay's of this week's subpennyradio broadcasts, I clearly remember Rufus and company saying there will be practally nothing new that wasn't in an ealier 8K, just a few required boxes filled in for SEC rules and possibly some minor new contracts (or something like that).
Everyone seams to be biting their nails for the 10k thinking it will equal some big swing in PPS when they have been telling us it won't be anything special... I'm confused.
According to what has been said, Immeidately after the 10K there will be a halt in trading and then the reset upon resumption. The waiting for the 10K is because of it being the final step prior to the reset.
GLTA Wally
Additionally, a 10-K and 10-Q are much different than a bunch of 8K's... Financials noted in the 10K are the general source for most financial institutions when looking to invest. Look at Yahoo's Key Stats for CSHD, it still shows FHAL's numbers. Just wait till about a week or two after the 10K that page will have $800 million in assets. I will be very pretty and hard for anyone to call it skeptical once the numbers are published in the Annual report and 10-K.
posted
I believe that they have until Monday October 16th before they would have an "E" posted after their symbol. AFTER that? I am not sure I think that they get 30 days and then they get delisted, I could be wrong. I don't forsee it coming to that, It would simply not make sence to go through this BS that Rufus and Company have to become delisted...
quote:Originally posted by beatheodds: When is the 10k comming out? Im still a shaking from the unseen financials from SLJB. What happens if they dont produce a 10k?
-------------------- #1 Rule: Protect your capital! #2 Rule: Never fall for the BS on the boards!
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