posted
Curious to know if anyone pays union dues and how that all works out. I also wonder, what people think about their union dues being used to pay for buses from California to Arizona to protest the illegal immigration. Why is big labor in the tank so much with the Obama administration over illegal immigration, when it is the illegals who are taking their own jobs away!
It doesnt make sense to me.
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: Curious to know if anyone pays union dues and how that all works out. I also wonder, what people think about their union dues being used to pay for buses from California to Arizona to protest the illegal immigration. Why is big labor in the tank so much with the Obama administration over illegal immigration, when it is the illegals who are taking their own jobs away!
It doesnt make sense to me.
You actually think illegals are taking Union jobs?!?!? ROFLMAO!!
-------------------- It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. Posts: 3311 | From: St. Louis | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Well, I thought unions take pride in the "American Worker" and I would have thought they would be opposed to people coming into the country illegally.
Maybe they should fix the jacked up process of becoming a citizen...I hear that isnt too pretty.
I dont know a whole lot about unions. Growing up, we always saw unions picketing or on strike demanding more money on the news from the auto plants. Why hire an American worker who has their wages set high, when you get some border jumper with a trade such as welding, pipe fitting, electric, etc for cheaper? I am not saying that is what is going on, just throwing the scenario out there.
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quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: Well, I thought unions take pride in the "American Worker" and I would have thought they would be opposed to people coming into the country illegally.
Maybe they should fix the jacked up process of becoming a citizen...I hear that isnt too pretty.
I dont know a whole lot about unions. Growing up, we always saw unions picketing or on strike demanding more money on the news from the auto plants. Why hire an American worker who has their wages set high, when you get some border jumper with a trade such as welding, pipe fitting, electric, etc for cheaper? I am not saying that is what is going on, just throwing the scenario out there.
Well...as you said...you know zip about Unions. As Buckstalker...he'll educate you so that you don't look so foolish. I know..I know...it's a tall order but I think Buck can handle the pressure.
-------------------- It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. Posts: 3311 | From: St. Louis | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Check out this union story, I think its kinda funny.
"unionized marijuana growers"
OAKLAND, Calif. -- As organized labor faces declining membership, one of the country's most storied unions is looking to a new growth industry: marijuana.
The Teamsters added nearly 40 new members earlier this month by organizing the country's first group of unionized marijuana growers. Such an arrangement is likely only possible in California, which has the nation's loosest medical marijuana laws.
But it's still unclear how the Teamsters will safeguard the rights of members who do work that's considered a federal crime.
"I didn't have this planned out when I became a Teamster 34 years ago, to organize marijuana workers," said Lou Marchetti, who acted as a liaison between the growers and Oakland-based Teamsters Local 70. "This is a whole new ballgame."
The new members work as gardeners, trimmers and cloners for Marjyn Investments LLC, an Oakland business that contracts with medical marijuana patients to grow their pot for them.
Their newly negotiated two-year contract provides them with a pension, paid vacation and health insurance. Their current wages of $18 per hour will increase to $25.75 an hour within 15 months, according to the union.
Historically, the Teamsters are no strangers to entanglements with federal law enforcement, from the infiltration of the union by organized crime to the disappearance of union leader Jimmy Hoffa. If the federal government decided to crack down on Marjyn, Marchetti said the union was still figuring out how it might intervene.
Growing marijuana outdoors is not hard - the nickname "weed" is well-earned. Indoor growing operations require more know-how and more work. But the most labor-intensive part of the process comes at harvest time, when growers rely on small armies of trimmers to clip the plant's resin-rich buds.
The work can be difficult and the hours long - and trimmers cannot count on federal labor regulations to protect them while doing work banned under federal law.
Michael Leong, assistant regional director for the Oakland office of the National Labor Relations Board, said he did not know of any case in which the federal government had been asked to mediate a dispute involving a business that was blatantly illegal under federal law.
He also said it wasn't clear if the new Teamsters would count as farmworkers, which would put them outside the NLRB's domain.
Michael Lee, general counsel for the California Agricultural Labor Relations Board, said the growers probably would qualify as agricultural workers. Any conflict between workers and the union would likely fall under his board's jurisdiction, but contract disputes between workers and management would have to be decided in state court.
Even within the state, marijuana cultivation has remained in the shadows as retail dispensaries have flourished because California's medical marijuana law provides no clear rules for growing the plant.
The Oakland City Council sought to change that dynamic in July by making the city the nation's first to authorize industrial pot cultivation. More than 260 potential applicants have expressed interest in competing later this year for four permits for large-scale growing operations, said Arturo Sanchez, an assistant to the Oakland city administrator who will ultimately issue the permits.
Union membership will not be a requirement for receiving a permit, but labor standards are one of many factors that will be considered. The union organizing effort and contract negotiations went smoothly at Marjyn, which hopes to win one of the permits.
"There was no strife between employees and management at all," said a Marjyn worker who would only identify himself as Rudy L. because he worried about his personal security if it became known that he grew marijuana for a living. He said he was not worried about getting arrested because he believed Marjyn was operating in compliance with state law, though the threat of a federal crackdown is never far from anyone's mind.
About 100 workers in Oakland's retail medical marijuana dispensaries joined the United Food and Commercial Workers in May. The Teamsters have never tried to organize dispensary workers, because retail has never been an industry in which they have been traditionally involved, Marchetti said.
The Teamsters have long vied with the United Farm Workers and other unions to represent agricultural workers. So far, no other unions have competed with the Teamsters for the membership of medical marijuana growers.
Marchetti said the union would not have gotten involved with the growers if it didn't believe the business was legitimate under state law.
"The Teamsters would never organize an illegal business," Marchetti said.
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Their newly negotiated two-year contract provides them with a pension, paid vacation and health insurance. Their current wages of $18 per hour will increase to $25.75 an hour within 15 months, according to the union.
And the increase in labor costs will, of course, be taken out of profits...not passed along to the consumers...right?
quote:Their newly negotiated two-year contract provides them with a pension, paid vacation and health insurance. Their current wages of $18 per hour will increase to $25.75 an hour within 15 months, according to the union.
And the increase in labor costs will, of course, be taken out of profits...not passed along to the consumers...right?
Thanks again, Unions!
Couple of questions for you SF... Why in the phuck would you view the union workers as the "greedy ones" in the above scenario? All they have done is organized to get themselves and their families a LIVING WAGE and some benefits... $25.00 an hour, medical benefits, and a pension is NOT GREED...
What about the company? Why aren't you pissed off at them? They are the ones passing the costs on to you, the consumer...Why shouldn't they absorb the increase in labor costs out of their already massive profits?
Massive profits and the unwillingness to share those profits with their workers is GREED...
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It's all in the timing... Posts: 4303 | From: DSA | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Its always more more more, we want more money. Screw the company that pays the wage, they dont need it.
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Why in the phuck would you view the union workers as the "greedy ones" in the above scenario?
Well, let's see...they were already making $18 an hour(over twice Cali's minimum wage)...in a state with 12%+ umemployment...
And apparently that wasn't good enough.
quote:All they have done is organized to get themselves and their families a LIVING WAGE and some benefits...
By extorting the business with threats of striking if they don't get what they want.
quote:$25.00 an hour, medical benefits, and a pension is NOT GREED...
No? That's three times minimum wage...probably another multiple added in through the medical benefits and a LIFETIME of wages long after they are no longer providing any benefit to the company...
Nope, not greedy at all.
quote:What about the company? Why aren't you pissed off at them? They are the ones passing the costs on to you, the consumer...Why shouldn't they absorb the increase in labor costs out of their already massive profits?
Ignoring the fact that I'm against pot farming on priciple...Why would I be pissed off at them? Because they are making people pay for the costs associated with providing the product\service? That's simply business, Buck. If you don't do that you don't stay in business long. Competition with drive you out of business if you can't maintain a certain profit margin.
quote:Massive profits and the unwillingness to share those profits with their workers is GREED...
Why is that greed, Buck? Did the workers invest their money to build the company? Did the workers share in the financial risk? If the company goes south do they lose their life's savings? If the company gets sued, are the workers liable for the damages?
The owner's are the ones taking the risk, Buck...they have every right to the rewards.
quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: Its always more more more, we want more money. Screw the company that pays the wage, they dont need it.
so in other words? one persons "greed" is more important than anothers?
do you have any idea what the profits are in pot?
The profits are great or else there wouldnt be smuggling glass. When is enough, enough though? Like I said I grew up in a city where the word union meant watching a bunch of people go on strike at a auto plant. Come to find out, the wages they were being paid were not that bad at all.
Friend of mine up in Detroit who works for GM told me last year how if a line worker comes to work and is sent home for smelling like booze, that the supervisor actually gets put under investigation as well. It is a real backwards system.
We dont live in the 1920s anymore, where unions were needed for factories with hazardous conditions. I dont see too many oilfield workers unions going on strike, in fact I dont ever see oilfield workers unions at all. They get out there, bust their ass, and dont cry if work gets tough. Coal mines still need unions, and I cant think of many others.
But pot farming? You really need a union/teamsters to grow plants?
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
We dont live in the 1920s anymore, where unions were needed for factories with hazardous conditions.
so workers (OR ANYBODY) has no right to form a "group" and express their desires?
as Bob pointed out the other day? that guy in Alaska at the state fair that got arrested was doing the same thing Unions are doing when they picket...
it's their right to unionise if they want..
the US is literally a Union:
The Constitution of the United States Preamble
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
dang those Founders were something else weren't they?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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LOL.. have ever even tried to rent an apt in CA? at min. wage? you cannot even afford a roof. forget food... sheeessh might as well live in cardboard box and collect cans you'd be better off.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: We dont live in the 1920s anymore, where unions were needed for factories with hazardous conditions.
so workers (OR ANYBODY) has no right to form a "group" and express their desires?
as Bob pointed out the other day? that guy in Alaska at the state fair that got arrested was doing the same thing Unions are doing when they picket...
it's their right to unionise if they want..
the US is literally a Union:
The Constitution of the United States Preamble
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
dang those Founders were something else weren't they?
Glass, comparing the union terminology in the constitution to modern day labor unions?
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Glass, comparing the union terminology in the constitution to modern day labor unions?
The United States is a Union. Some might wish their State had more autonomy than they do now, but i garantee you that other states would gobble them up quick if we dissolved the Union.
Taxes are the same as dues, so yes, i am comparing them direclty.
Tell me why were the Westerns Sates so all fired up to join the Union?
You think maybe they were looking for some pork?
wanna tell me why some people don't have the right to form a Union, but others do? Look it up, we have the explicit Constitutional right to form Unions, and the Supreme Court even said that Unions have the right to spend as much as they want on political campaigns, just like corporations do. BTW? a Corporation is ALSO a group of people that have formed up. I don't agree that Unions or Corps have the right to spend all they want on politics since they are not voters per se, but SCOTUS says i am wrong...
just because you don't "like" them? don't mean jack, they aren't useles tot eh people in 'em or htey wouldn't make 'em, and it is thier right to do so.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
to be honest cash? i am not a Union person, was in the IBEW for a while when i go out of the Navy, and didn't care for it... here's the "thing" tho, i'm just not an Employee or an Employer. I work on my own an di like it that way, but unions are no more or less "evil" then the Corporate stuffed shirts... they are in a competition with each other an' Competition is GOOD!
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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The effects of China’s growing labor unions on your company By Ames Gross
China's recently revised Labor Contract law, requiring contracts for all workers, took effect on January 1, 2008. Paired with the unionization effort, some foreign firms have reported increased labor costs of 20% to 40%.
Worker unionization has dramatically increased in China since the beginning of 2007. Chinese domestic companies and foreign-invested companies operating in China are both feeling the effects, but in different ways.
Some Chinese firms turn to union mediators to help deal with a growing number of worker strikes, while many foreign-invested companies are being pressed by the Chinese government to open their doors to government unions.
Throughout 2008, as Chinese firms and union officials have begun to take innovative approaches to handle worker unrest, foreign companies now wonder if they will have to follow in lockstep.
Unionization status
A few years ago, the state-sponsored All-China Federation of Trade Unions (ACFTU), the umbrella union for the entire country of China, called for all foreign-invested companies in China to recognize its unions by the end of 2008, claiming it would ‘blacklist' and take legal action against any foreign firms refusing to allow unionization.
As of the beginning of 2009, according to official reports, 313 labor unions have been set up in 83% of multinational corporations' China headquarters. The future of those companies that have not yet complied remains uncertain.
Historically, because government officials and corporate managers had a common interest in keeping production levels high, there was little official support for dissatisfied workers. China's state-owned companies had unions under ACFTU, which as a government-affiliated body...is more interested in enforcing worker discipline.
posted
Again, Buck, I don't think you and I are ever going to see eye to eye on this issue. You see it as 'good for the worker' which, in the short term, it surely is. I see it as 'bad for the consumer', which it surely is.
With all due respect, and I mean that, I don't think anyone who feels they 'earned' their pension is going to bad mouth the system that provided it. That's the trap of entitlements. One knows who butters their bread.
By extorting the business with threats of striking if they don't get what they want.
Extortion??? LMAO...It's called bargaining SF NOT extortion... Furthermore...if you are going to accuse a group of people that have organized to better their standard of living extortionists...then aren't the employers also extortionists? In a non-union shop, employees are constantly threatened with the loss of their job if they don't accept poverty scale wages or unsafe working conditions...by your definition, isn't that also considered extortion?
Both sides are trying to get what is best for themselves and in a union setting, they do that through BARGAINING...NOT EXTORTION
quote:$25.00 an hour, medical benefits, and a pension is NOT GREED...That's three times minimum wage...probably another multiple added in through the medical benefits and a LIFETIME of wages long after they are no longer providing any benefit to the company...Nope, not greedy at all.
No...$25.00 an hour, medical benefits, and a pension is NOT greedy...it is a "living wage package" and by no means will those employees ever have enough money to be considered GREEDY...
quote:Because they are making people pay for the costs associated with providing the product\service? That's simply business, Buck. If you don't do that you don't stay in business long. Competition with drive you out of business if you can't maintain a certain profit margin.
True enough...but paying your employees a "living wage" is part of the cost of doing business...Attempting to "compete" with the Chinese labor force will be our demise...NOT the unions...
quote:Did the workers share in the financial risk? If the company goes south do they lose their life's savings?
Sure they do...Most employees won't have any "life's savings" working for those wages and living in Cali...and, the vast majority will live paycheck to paycheck...so if the company goes south, they will lose it all...
quote:If the company gets sued, are the workers liable for the damages?
Again...if the company gets sued and goes under....so do the employees...
quote:The owner's are the ones taking the risk, Buck...they have every right to the rewards.
Don't tell me about risk...I risked my life every day for 30 years working in an auto factory. I saw many people over the years get seriously injured and killed...and I also have every right to bargain for my fair share of the rewards...
I can tell by your answers that you are young, have NEVER belonged to a union, and have never been an employer...
You seem like a fairly intelligent young man SF, but you really need to develop a "sense of community"
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It's all in the timing... Posts: 4303 | From: DSA | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: Again, Buck, I don't think you and I are ever going to see eye to eye on this issue. You see it as 'good for the worker' which, in the short term, it surely is. I see it as 'bad for the consumer', which it surely is.
With all due respect, and I mean that, I don't think anyone who feels they 'earned' their pension is going to bad mouth the system that provided it. That's the trap of entitlements. One knows who butters their bread.
SF...The "worker" IS the "consumer"...
As far as my pension goes...that was negotiated as part of my WAGE agreement...it is not an entitlement and who in the phuck are you to utter such nonsense...
Maybe I was wrong about your intelligence...
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It's all in the timing... Posts: 4303 | From: DSA | Registered: Dec 2003
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Well, let's see...they were already making $18 an hour(over twice Cali's minimum wage)...in a state with 12%+ umemployment...
And apparently that wasn't good enough.
Correct...in a state with an extremely high cost of living like Cali, that apparently WASN'T enough...
Ya know, I've really changed my mind through this give and take some of us have here. Maybe not a 180, but being from Texas, in my little niche? ...it's quite a concession to say a union might have a point.
Now, I still think it's funny what I posted earlier, that link to the scabs protesting WalMart.
But, I can really see the need for employees of large, super-wide-out, no-holds-barred corporations. Those employees need to be able to match up with teams of lawyered-up C-suites, cuz you know they're gonna shave every rounded-off corner you can think of--and a bunch that a regular working stiff would never think of...
Here's where I fall short of a 180: say I've got a small shop, electrical, carpentry, publishing, trading, whatever. Let's say 5 employees are needed all year, maybe 12 in peak season. Through time, I work it out so that the 5 and 7 come and go accordingly--sometimes even switching places--and everybody's more or less happy with the arrangement.
But then one year, a union organizer shows up. Now my quick, nimble team could easily turn into a nightmare that I can't handle. See my point? When we have a problem with our bosses, we either work it out, punch it out, or gather our tools and drag up. The motto in the neighborhood I'm from is "I was looking for a job when I found this one."
Put it this way: I've seldom been screwed working with or for peeps I grew up with...or people who share similar values. I can't say that about the major corporations I've worked for; in those cases, looking back on it, a union rep would've been a great resource.
Friend of mine up in Detroit who works for GM told me last year how if a line worker comes to work and is sent home for smelling like booze, that the supervisor actually gets put under investigation as well.
Your friend is a liar...
quote:We dont live in the 1920s anymore, where unions were needed for factories with hazardous conditions.
More lies...
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It's all in the timing... Posts: 4303 | From: DSA | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
unions werent needed in the 1920s to ensure safe conditions for workers?
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I see it as 'bad for the consumer', which it surely is.
wow! now you are a consumer advocate? LOL...
don't be a consumer, we already agreed on that (right?)...
consumers are just the economic sponge we use to soak up the Capital and then wring out right?
Abraham Lincoln said this, and he was correct:
Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. Abraham Lincoln
what he's saying is risk be damned SF, Capital is not created by risk taking. Capital is made by work. Risk taking is gambling.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
We've asked this before, Buck, but I'll try again. What the heck? I might get lucky...
What IS a living wage in your opinion? What constitutes a fair wage? Not in terms of dollars and cents, but in terms of what it can afford in a generic working area.
quote:Both sides are trying to get what is best for themselves and in a union setting, they do that through BARGAINING...NOT EXTORTION
Bargaining, Buck, it give and take. I offer you X for you giving me Y. Threatening to shut down your business (through striking you entire workforce) is not bargaining. That's extortion imo. Sorry we can't agree on it.
quote:I can tell by your answers that you are young, have NEVER belonged to a union, and have never been an employer...
You seem like a fairly intelligent young man SF, but you really need to develop a "sense of community"
No, I've never been part of a Union, though my brother is. I've never been an employer but I have had to lead\manage medium sized groups of people. The regular laws I have to sift through to do so is by far enough for me. To have to deal with Union rules on top of that would be insane to me.
quote:As far as my pension goes...that was negotiated as part of my WAGE agreement...it is not an entitlement and who in the phuck are you to utter such nonsense...
Who am I? I'm the guy that has to pay more for American made items because of Union contracts, Buck. That's who I am.
And your wage agreement? You think it ok to 'bargain' for a GUARANTEED income long after you no longer contribute to the company? What's the average life expectancy for you, Buck? mid 80's? If you retired at, what, 49, that means you're drawning a full pension for over 30 years! Longer than you were at the job in most cases. That wouldn't be AS bad if you weren't ALSO drawing a higher salary than non-union while you were there in the first place.
And ALL of that cost gets put back on me and everyone else that buys your product.
quote:SF...The "worker" IS the "consumer"...
Which is my point! By forcing the business to pay more in wages, you are increasing your own expenses. By expanding Unions, you will increase the price YOU pay for everything they touch.
quote:Maybe I was wrong about your intelligence...
posted
To have to deal with Union rules on top of that would be insane to me.
LOL.. there you go. the Unions are self-regulatory. Just like corporations? there are good people and bad people in them, some are very well run and others are crooks. They SHOULD make your management daily activities easier if they are well run.
that doesn't make Unions bad.
as to extortion? the people not working while on strike might get some pay from other mebers of th eunion or from the the dues they paid in, but guess what? they are out of work when they go on strike, so it's not extortion.
here is the legal definition of extortion:
The obtaining of property from another induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right.
wrongful being the key word. sure, there are violent strikes and violent strike breakers, but both are illegal..The First Amendment prohibits government from abridging "the right of the people peaceably to assemble."
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Which is my point! By forcing the business to pay more in wages, you are increasing your own expenses. By expanding Unions, you will increase the price YOU pay for everything they touch.
you cannot force the business to charge more than their product is actually worth, Unions know this..
tha'st what labor negotiations are all about, it's called price discovery and is in fact one of the most important elements of FreeTrade principles..
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: We've asked this before, Buck, but I'll try again. What the heck? I might get lucky...
What IS a living wage in your opinion? What constitutes a fair wage? Not in terms of dollars and cents, but in terms of what it can afford in a generic working area.
i answered this before very plainly. there's noway to define a living wage in generic terms.
here in MS? I can afford the same home i owned in VA for 150,000. The home in RURAL Southern VA? 700,000. In norhtern VA? 5 million. That's todays prices BTW.
Now i can do this because here in MS? We are poor. Look it up, we are last in all the "good categories and first in all the "bad" categories.
Businesses do not want to move here because the education is so bad that mid-level management and up must have extra pay to allow the kids to go to private schools, and let me tell you they send them to boarding schools out of state, not local private schools... many people do not want to send thier kids to boarding school (like me )
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