quote:Originally posted by Pagan: Big difference glass, our missiles are "shootdown missiles", not first strike missiles. Thats what is pissing Russia off. Any aggression, missile wise, they make against a neighbor can be nullified.
i don't argue that, and i know we've offered to allow the Russkies to inspect the missile sites...
"shoot down" missile sites can be "upgraded" pretty fast, and targeting sytems don't differ that much...
i'm not defending Putin, he's definitely got on top ofhis dung heap and he's crowing loud, but there's more history here than the News is publishing.
for instance? the "breakaway republics" the Russians are "defending" are ethnically not Georgian or Russian.... the Georgians have been fighting with them off and on since they broke from the USSR...
mostly? i doubt Putin cares much what Dubya says, and he decided what Dubya could do about this before they acted...
-------------------- Of the People, by the People and For the People. Posts: 27931 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Peaser: Might McCain(or Bushs' third term, as bdgee puts it) take on Colin Powell as a running mate to win the black vote?
That might just win the election for that bitter old man.
that might do it Pease, i'mnot sure General Powell is a GOP anymore tho...
my concern wit' Georgia is that sending our troops in on a humanitarian mission is the EXACT SAME EXCUSE the Russkies used to invade... they called it peacekeeping etc...
-------------------- Of the People, by the People and For the People. Posts: 27931 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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February 5, 2004 Pakistan's president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, made the announcement today. He has pardoned the father of his country's nuclear program, Abdul Qadeer Khan. Khan was accused and reportedly admitted sending nuclear and missile technology to Libya, Iran and North Korea.
Abdul Qadeer KhanWidely revered in Pakistan as a national hero, Khan confessed to the leaks on television yesterday, and later asked in writing for a pardon from President Musharraf.
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posted
The United States appears to have let its European allies take the lead on the diplomatic efforts to stop the fighting in Georgia, Zain Verjee, CNN's State Department correspondent, said.
Good move... Save as much as we can. We already wasted many of our resources in Iraq.
"America is losing the whole region, and this is the region of eastern and central Europe," said Saakashvili
geez... makes it sound like we dun own'em.
-------------------- Buy Low. Sell High. Posts: 9814 | From: The Land Of The Giants | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
wow, i just found some really wierd neo-con "rumors"
Randy Scheunemann, for four years a paid lobbyist for the Georgian government who ended his official lobbying connection only in March, months after he became Republican presidential candidate John McCain's senior foreign policy adviser.
Scheunemann was best known as one of the neoconservatives who engineered the war in Iraq when he was a director of the Project for a New American Century. It was Scheunemann who, after working on the McCain 2000 presidential campaign, headed the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, which championed the U.S. invasion of Iraq.
In 2005, while registered as a paid lobbyist for Georgia, Scheunemann worked with McCain to draft a congressional resolution pushing for Georgia's membership in NATO. A year later, while still on the Georgian payroll, Scheunemann accompanied McCain on a trip to that country, where they met with Saakashvili and supported his bellicose views toward Russia's Vladimir Putin.
hmmmm.... i guess they stopped paying for the Project for a New American Century Site for a reason....
Randy Scheunemann (196?) is the President of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, which was created by the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), of which he is a board member. He was Trent Lott's National Security Aide and was an advisor to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on Iraq. He is 2008 Presidential candidate John McCain's foreign-policy aide.
Scheunemann holds a degree from the University of Minnesota, and did graduate work at Tufts University. He moved to Capitol Hill in 1986, joining the office of Senator Dave Durenberger. In 1993, he joined the staff of Senator Bob Dole as foreign policy advisor. Before joining the Mercury Group PR firm in 1998, he worked also for Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott.[1]
Scheunemann has been criticized for his close association with Ahmad Chalabi during the George W. Bush administration's campaign to generate public support for the 2003 invasion of Iraq.[2]
that is some screwball stuff..... or was it curveball? maybe they were both codenames for the guys that supplied Bush all of his intel for the Iraqi WMD...
-------------------- Of the People, by the People and For the People. Posts: 27931 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Peaser: The United States appears to have let its European allies take the lead on the diplomatic efforts to stop the fighting in Georgia, Zain Verjee, CNN's State Department correspondent, said.
Good move... Save as much as we can. We already wasted many of our resources in Iraq.
Yes that is true about our resources but the Georgia conflict is the perfect example of what conflicts we should get involved with. The type where our allies are being invaded by a hostile country... so we invade Iraq who was no threat to us & wasn't being hostile to it's neighbors who are our allies.... but we do nothing military wise towards Iran, N. Korea or Russia for being threats to us and our allies.... go figure...
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Greed, for the lack of a better word is GOOD. Posts: 3883 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
remember? this started when Georgia attacked South Ossetia. Russia retaliated :
Hundreds dead in Russia-Georgia conflict
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS • August 8, 2008
DZHAVA, Georgia — Russia sent columns of tanks and reportedly bombed Georgian air bases Friday after Georgia launched a major military offensive Friday to retake the breakaway province of South Ossetia, threatening to ignite a broader conflict.
Hundreds of civilians were reported dead in the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won defacto independence in a war against Georgia that ended in 1992. Witnesses said the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali was devastated.
“I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings, in cars,” said Lyudmila Ostayeva, 50, who had fled with her family to Dzhava, a village near the border with Russia. “It’s impossible to count them now. There is hardly a single building left undamaged.”
The fighting broke out as much of the world’s attention was focused on the start of the Olympic Games and many leaders, including Russia’s Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and President Bush, were in Beijing.
The timing suggests Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili may have been counting on surprise to fulfill his longtime pledge to wrest back control of South Ossetia — a key to his hold on power.
what won't people do to manipulate public opinion?
Our own media is not innocent of manipulating public opinions themselves Glass. All media's in all countries do that imo. But i do tend to agree with the article below (coming from a Right Wing paper no less)about Russia manipulating Georgia into attacking Ossentia to give it a excuse for invasion and that Russia's military was prepared for this month's in advance:
posted
it wouldn't surprise me if Bush and Putin were not joking around in Beijing about how upset everybody will be.... and how they can both spin this to their political advantages
Georgia and Ossienta have had many confrontations since georgia broke away from the USSR...
but for this guy Randy Scheunemann to pop up again like this is just another one too many coincidences...
-------------------- Of the People, by the People and For the People. Posts: 27931 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
When it comes to staring a war, the burden of proof must be met before hostilities begin, not left hanging for later generations to consider.
Posts: 10357 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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Book says White House ordered forgery By MIKE ALLEN | 8/5/08 11:51 AM EST Updated: 8/5/08 11:51 AM EST
A new book by the author Ron Suskind claims that the White House ordered the CIA to forge a back-dated, handwritten letter from the head of Iraqi intelligence to Saddam Hussein.
Suskind writes in “The Way of the World,” to be published Tuesday, that the alleged forgery – adamantly denied by the White House – was designed to portray a false link between Hussein’s regime and al Qaeda as a justification for the Iraq war.
The author also claims that the Bush administration had information from a top Iraqi intelligence official “that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq – intelligence they received in plenty of time to stop an invasion.”
The letter’s existence has been reported before, and it had been written about as if it were genuine. It was passed in Baghdad to a reporter for The (London) Sunday Telegraph who wrote about it on the front page of Dec. 14, 2003, under the headline, “Terrorist behind September 11 strike ‘was trained by Saddam.’”
The Telegraph story by Con Coughlin (which, coincidentally, ran the day Hussein was captured in his “spider hole”) was touted in the U.S. media by supporters of the war, and he was interviewed on NBC's "Meet the Press."
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: When it comes to staring a war, the burden of proof must be met before hostilities begin, not left hanging for later generations to consider.
Yup, thus everyone was duped.
-------------------- Buy Low. Sell High. Posts: 9814 | From: The Land Of The Giants | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
No, dubya and the republican elite were NOT duped.
While most of us are truly among all the dupees, the republican elite are all among the dupers.
Posts: 10357 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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Close Window Bush warns Russia over disputed Georgian provinces Saturday, August 16, 2008 CRAWFORD, Texas - President George W. Bush sent a stern warning to Russia on Saturday that it cannot lay claim to two breakaway provinces in neighboring Georgia, a U.S. ally, and said there was no room for debate on that point.
Searching for signs of progress, Bush told reporters at his Texas ranch that Russian President Dmitry Medvedev's signing Saturday of a cease-fire plan was an important development - "a hopeful step."
"Now, Russia needs to honor that agreement and withdraw its forces and, of course, end military operations" from Georgia, a small former Soviet state on Russia's southwest border.
The Russian foreign minister said Thursday that Georgia could "forget about" getting back the two separatist regions, South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Medvedev also met with their leaders in Kremlin this past week, raising the prospect that Moscow could absorb the regions even though the territory is internationally recognized as being within Georgia's borders.
The U.S. says this is a monumental sticking point in resolving the more than weeklong conflict.
"A major issue is Russia's contention that the regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia may not be a part of Georgia's future," Bush said, standing alongside Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. "These regions are a part of Georgia and the international community has repeatedly made clear that they will remain so."
Bush said that because Georgia is a member of the United Nations, its borders should be respected the same as any other nation's. Moreover, the U.N. Security Council has passed numerous resolutions based on the premise that South Ossetia and Abkhazia remain within Georgia and that international negotiations seek to resolve conflict in those areas.
"Russia itself has endorsed these resolutions," Bush said. "The international community is clear that South Ossetia and Abkhazia are part of Georgia, and the United States fully recognizes this reality."
Earlier Saturday, Bush called Canada's prime minister, Stephen Harper, and Latvia's president, Valdis Zatlers, to discuss the situation in Georgia.
Bush did not take questions from media gathered in tall grass and cacti outside an office structure at the ranch. Rice arrived at the ranch around 5:30 a.m. local time after a flight from the Georgian capital of Tblisi. She participated in a meeting with Bush and his national security team, which included Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Robert Gates and national security adviser Stephen Hadley via videoconference from Washington. Afterward, Rice chatted with reporters.
She did not specify what, if any, repercussions Russia might face for its actions.
"We'll take our time and look at further consequences for what Russia has done," she said. The U.S. and the European Union already have raised concerns "about the way Russia has done this. I think you will start to see reports come out about what Russian forces engaged in."
She said that unlike in the past, Russia cares deeply about its global reputation. "I think actually Russia will care about this talk, because it's not just talk, it's about Russia's standing in the international community," Rice said.
She said that the agreement that French President Nicolas Sarkozy negotiated and that both nations have signed is specific about future Russian troop presence in Georgia. According to Rice, the Russian president told Sarkozy, the current leader of the European Union, that the minute that Georgia signed the document that Russian forces would begin to withdraw.
"So from my point of view, and I'm in contact with the French, the Russians are perhaps already not honoring their word," she said.
The cease-fire agreement calls for both forces to pull back to positions they held before fighting erupted Aug. 8. That was when Georgia launched a massive barrage to try to take control of the Russian-backed separatist region of South Ossetia. The Russian army quickly overwhelmed the forces of its small U.S.-backed neighbor, and Moscow's troops drove deep into Georgia.
The agreement, Rice said, is specific about future Russian troop presence in Georgia.
"The world has watched with alarm as Russia invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatened a democratic government elected by its people," Bush said in his weekly radio address. "This act is completely unacceptable to the free nations of the world."
Keeping up the diplomatic pressure, Rice planned to go to Brussels next week for meetings with the foreign ministers of NATO allies and European Union officials.
The crisis has chilled relations between the United States and Russia. The fighting comes as the U.S. is sealing the deal on a missile shield in Europe - an issue already unraveling ties between the two former Cold War foes.
Poland and the U.S. signed a deal Thursday for Poland to accept a missile interceptor base as part of a system the U.S. says is aimed at blocking attacks by adversaries such as Iran.
Moscow feels it is aimed at Russia's missile force. A Russian general was quoted by Interfax News Agency on Friday as saying that by accepting a U.S. missile defense battery, Poland was "exposing itself to a strike."
The missile deal awaits approval by Poland's parliament and signing by Rice during a future visit to Warsaw, possibly in the week ahead.
That is sure to further antagonize Russia. But the U.S. wants to be careful to alienate Moscow and drive Russian leaders away from further integration with the West.
"Russia's actions in Georgia raise serious questions about its role and its intentions in the Europe of the 21st century," Bush said. "In recent years, Russia has sought to integrate into the diplomatic, political, economic, and security structures of the West. The United States has supported those efforts. Now Russia has put its aspirations at risk by taking actions in Georgia that are inconsistent with the principles of those institutions.
"To begin to repair the damage to its relations with the United States, Europe, and other nations, and to begin restoring its place in the world, Russia must act to end this crisis."
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Posts: 6008 | From: phoenix az | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Haven't read the whole thread but does anybody else feel that Bush stance has a bit of Hipocracy to it?
I mean he has invaded 2 countries, which are still being occupied by the US that are a lot farther away from us than Georgia is from Russia. Also wasn't it Georgia that created this situation by attempting to recapture territories that had broken away? That in conjunction with the US getting closer to placing missiles in Poland, IMO, left little else for Russia to do.
HMM, I wonder what the US would do if Russia attempted to place missile in, say Cuba. Oh that's right they already did, it was called the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Go figure.
Posts: 3095 | From: Los Angeles California | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Close Window US worries Russia returning to its past Sunday, August 17, 2008 WASHINGTON - Russia is showing signs of returning to its authoritarian past and its invasion of Georgia will require the U.S. to re-evaluate the strategic relationship between the superpowers, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Sunday.
Joining in the hard-line rhetoric, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice accused Russian President Dmitry Medvedev of failing to honoring a promise to withdrawing troops quickly from Georgia under terms of a cease-fire he signed Saturday.
"I hope this time he'll keep his word," Rice said after Medvedev announced the withdrawal would begin Monday.
Shadows of the Cold War emerged as the Bush administration struggled for the appropriate response to Russia's aggression against its smaller U.S.-backed neighbor, which Moscow ruled for most of the two centuries before the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union.
"There's a real concern that Russia has turned a corner here and is headed back to its past rather than its future," Gates said.
"The fact is we have worked hard to bring them (the Russians) into the community of nations. ... We thought they were headed in that direction," he added. "Now we have to re-evaluate all that."
Rice said Medvedev had pledged that when Georgia's president signed the cease-fire, Russian forces would begin to withdraw. But that did not happen.
"Russia currently is not in compliance with that cease-fire," Rice said. "I don't have an explanation because I would think that when the Russian president says that a signed cease-fire accord will mean the withdrawal of Russian forces, that Russian forces would then withdraw. They did not. However, yet again, the Russian president has given his word, and this time, I hope he'll honor it."
Fighting broke out after Georgia launched a massive barrage Aug. 7 to try to take control of the separatist province of South Ossetia. The Russian army quickly overwhelmed Georgia's forces and drove deep into the country, raising fears that of a long-term Russian occupation.
Rice spoke on "Fox News Sunday" while Gates appeared on "This Week" on ABC.
Posts: 6008 | From: phoenix az | Registered: Mar 2005
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Close Window US, allies contemplating action against Russia Sunday, August 17, 2008 CRAWFORD, Texas - The United States on Sunday accused Russia of stalling its military pullback in Georgia, but the Bush administration is not rushing to repudiate Moscow for its actions.
The White House is struggling to figure out the best way to penalize Russia. It doesn't want to deeply damage existing cooperation on many fronts or discourage Moscow from further integrating itself into global economic and political institutions. At the same time, U.S. officials say Russia can't be allowed to get away with invading its neighbor.
Fighting broke out after Georgia launched a massive barrage Aug. 7 to try to take control of the separatist province of South Ossetia, which is heavily influenced by Russia. The Russian army quickly overwhelmed Georgia's forces, then drove deep into the country, bombed Georgian ports and military installations and tied up an east-west highway through the nation.
"There's no doubt there will be further consequences," said Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who briefed President George W. Bush on the fast-changing crisis over the weekend at his Texas ranch.
She returned to Washington on Sunday and is flying to Europe on Monday to talk with NATO allies about what message the West should send to Russia.
Russia can't use "disproportionate force" against its neighbor and still be welcomed into the halls of international institutions, Rice said.
"It's not going to happen that way," she said. "Russia will pay a price."
But neither Rice nor Defense Secretary Robert Gates would be specific about what punitive actions the U.S. or the international community might take.
"We're going to take our time and assess what further consequences there should be to the relationship," Rice said.
The United States wants to take a tough stance against Russia, but there is much at stake.
"The facts are that the United States has to work with Russia on Iran, on nuclear problems of proliferation, on a whole raft of trade issues at a time in which the United States has a huge domestic deficit," said Sen. Richard Lugar, the senior Republican on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
And holding open the prospect of taking steps against Russia gives the United States some leverage in pushing Russia to withdraw from Georgia. But nothing is expected to happen in a hurry, and the United States doesn't want to turn the conflict into a fight between the former Cold War rivals.
"There is no need to rush into everything," Gates said. "We don't want to do it unilaterally.
"I think there needs to be a strong, unified response to Russia to send the message that this kind of behavior, characteristic of the Soviet period, has no place in the 21st century," he said.
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said Russian troops will begin leaving Monday, but made no mention of leaving the separatist province at the heart of the conflict between the countries.
The Bush administration is hopeful yet skeptical that Russia will honor its pledge to withdraw troops quickly from Georgia under terms of a cease-fire it signed Saturday.
"My own view is that the Russians will probably stall and perhaps take more time than anybody would like," Gates said. "I think we just need to keep the pressure and ensure that they abide by the agreement that they've signed and do so in a timely way."
Konstantin Kosachev, chairman of the Russian parliament's foreign affairs committee, said Russian forces will be out of Georgia "sooner or later."
Echoing Bush's call to withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq depending on conditions on the ground, Kosachev said: "If I would ask you ... `How fast the American forces can leave Iraq?' ... the answer would be, as soon as we have guarantees for peace and security there. The same answer would be toward this situation."
Posts: 6008 | From: phoenix az | Registered: Mar 2005
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