Russian tanks 'rolling into Georgian breakaway' NEW: Georgia says it has shot down two Russian aircraft Russian TV shows tanks and troops moving towards Georgia Russian authorities said several of its peacekeepers died in a Georgian attack Vladimir Putin warned Russia would respond to Georgia's actions
TBLISI, Georgia (CNN) -- Georgia's president said Friday that his country is under attack from Russian tanks and warplanes, and he accused Russia of targeting civilian populations as tensions over the breakway Georgian region of South Ossetia appeared to boil over into full-blown conflict.
"All day today they've been bombing Georgia from numerous warplanes and specifically targeting (the) civilian population, and we have scores of wounded and dead among (the) civilian population all around the country," Mikhail Saakashvili told CNN in an exclusive interview.
Saakashvili also said Georgian troops had shot down two Russian aircraft.
Asked whether Georgia and Russia were now at war, he said, "My country is in self-defense against Russian aggression. Russian troops invaded Georgia."
Russian television showed a convoy of Russian tanks and said they were heading into the South Ossetia region. Watch the Russian tanks moving into the area »
The move came after Russia denounced as "aggressive" a Georgian troops military offensive to regain control over the province, vowing to respond.
Russian authorities earlier said several of its peacekeepers died in a Georgian attack in South Ossetia, which borders Russia and has strong ties to its vast northern neighbor, and they vowed not to leave Russian citizens in the territory unprotected. Watch more about NATO's attempts to help Georgia »
"The Georgian leadership has launched a dirty adventure," a statement from Russia's Defense Ministry said on Friday. "We will not leave our peacekeepers and Russian citizens unprotected."
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said Georgia started the fighting and warned that Russia would respond to their actions.
"Heavy weapons and artillery have been sent there, and tanks have been added. Deaths and injuries have been reported, including among Russian peacekeepers," Putin said in comments carried Friday by Russia's Interfax news agency.
"It's all very sad and alarming. And, of course, there will be a response."
Earlier Friday, Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili said in a televised statement that Russian aircraft bombed several Georgian villages and other civilian facilities.
He added that there were injuries and damage to buildings. "A full-scale aggression has been launched against Georgia," he said.
A Georgian official reported that seven people were hurt in the attack, the Associated Press said.
Saakashvili urged Russia to immediately stop bombing Georgian territory. "Georgia will not yield its territory or renounce its freedom," he said.
He also called for the full-scale mobilization of Georgian reserve forces as fighting continued to rage in South Ossetia's capital.
Meanwhile, NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer issued a statement Friday saying he was seriously concerned about the recent events in the region, and called on "all sides to end armed clashes and begin direct talks."
The United States also urged all sides to bring an immediate end to the violence. "The U.S. has been in discussions for many months with all parties to find a peaceful resolution," White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said.
"We urge all sides to refrain from violence and to begin direct talks."
Russian peacekeepers are in South Ossetia under a 1992 agreement by Russian, Georgian, and South Ossetian authorities to maintain what has been a fragile peace. The mixed peacekeeping force also includes Georgian and South Ossetian troops.
The latest events came just hours after the U.N. Security Council finished an emergency session to discuss a dramatic escalation of violence in Georgia and South Ossetia. The session ended Friday morning without a statement about the fighting.
Violence has been mounting in the region in recent days, with sporadic clashes between Georgian forces and South Ossetian separatists. South Ossetia declared its independence from Georgia in the early 1990s, but its independence is not internationally recognized.
Georgian troops launched new attacks in South Ossetia late Thursday after a top government official said a unilateral cease-fire offer was met with separatist artillery fire.
"The objective of the operation is to protect the civilian population, to ensure their security and then convince the separatists that there is not a military solution to this conflict," said Alexander Lomaia, the secretary of Georgia's National Security Council.
Lomaia said Georgian troops were responding proportionately to separatist mortar and artillery attacks on two villages -- attacks he said followed the cease-fire and call for negotiations by Saakashvili.
The official news agency of the South Ossetian government reported heavy shelling in the territory's capital, Tskhinvali, that left dozens of buildings ablaze.
About 2,000 Georgian troops attempted to storm Tskhinvali overnight and were regrouping south of the city, according to Russia's ITAR-TASS news agency.
Around 10 a.m. Friday, Georgia said Russian military aircraft violated Georgian airspace and dropped two bombs on Kareli, a part of Georgia that is about 50 miles northwest of the capital, Tblisi, and is not in the conflict zone, said Shota Utiashvili, spokesman for the Georgian Ministry of Interior.
Georgia, located on the Black Sea coast between Russia and Turkey, has been split by Russian-backed separatist movements in South Ossetia and another region, Abkhazia.
Georgian and South Ossetian negotiators had been scheduled to meet Friday in Tskhinvali, Moscow's chief negotiator, Yuri Popov, told the Russian news agency Interfax.
Saakashvili announced Thursday night that he had ordered his troops to cease fire while the negotiators met, but Lomaia said the call was met with more attacks.
In addition, Lomaia said, hundreds of "mercenaries" -- or "volunteers," as the South Ossetians described them -- are pouring across the border from Russia to join the fight.
-- Journalist Elene Gotsadze contributed to this report.
Posted by glassman on :
Duma wants Putin to back Georgian separatists The Associated Press Published: March 21, 2008
MOSCOW: Parliament on Friday urged the Kremlin to consider recognizing the independence of two separatist regions in neighboring Georgia, stepping up Moscow's campaign to keep the former Soviet republic out of NATO.
The lower house of Parliament, the State Duma, voted overwhelmingly to adopt a statement calling on President Vladimir Putin and the government to "consider the question of the expediency of recognizing the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia."
The statement also says the government should speed up efforts to support the sovereignty of the two regions in case Georgia "accelerated" its drive to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, suggesting that Moscow should move swiftly toward recognizing the regions if the alliance puts Georgia on track for membership at a meeting next month.
The vote was 440 to 0 in the 450-seat chamber.
The statement calls on the government to increase support for Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which broke away from Georgian government control after the 1991 Soviet breakup and have made renewed calls for international recognition since Kosovo's Western-backed declaration of independence.
so? we won the cold war, and Bush lost it back too?
Posted by bdgee on :
We didn't "win" the cold war, we simply survived it, while the U.S.S.R did not (which may offer a realistic definition of "winning" a war).
Bush lost us the chance to not have to fight several wars of the future (i.e., providing us several chances to loose a war), since it will be at least decades before most of the world will trust us again, thus disallowing diplomatic successes and avoidance of war.
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: We didn't "win" the cold war, we simply survived it, while the U.S.S.R did not (which may offer a realistic definition of "winning" a war).
Bush lost us the chance to not have to fight several wars of the future (i.e., providing us several chances to loose a war), since it will be at least decades before most of the world will trust us again, thus disallowing diplomatic successes and avoidance of war.
OBAMA will save us all! guess you haven't heard.
Posted by bdgee on :
Yes I did hear.
And, assuming he doesn't loose, that is fine.
However, suppose dubya wins a third term. Then, whatever ls is going on in the world, we will still be tied down in Iraq, assured of pretty good chance of loosing and still in almost total disfavor with most of the nations of the World.
Posted by jordanreed on :
business, as usual?
Posted by bdgee on :
Yep, the oil business.....
Posted by kermit42 on :
Jesus, you liberals! Russia invades Georgia and the first bodies aren't even cold before you find a way to blame Bush?!?
When I saw the topic I was hoping to see a little intelligent thinking, but I was disappointed.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by kermit42: Jesus, you liberals! Russia invades Georgia and the first bodies aren't even cold before you find a way to blame Bush?!?
When I saw the topic I was hoping to see a little intelligent thinking, but I was disappointed.
you're right kermit, this isn't the return of the USSR and Bush has been the consumate diplomat... Putin doesn't have lying eyes and NATO will still get a new member....
seriuolsy? you beleive i'm just being a pundit?
Iskander Missile Systems, Strategic Bombers May Be Stationed in Belarus - Russian Ambassador MINSK. Aug 6 (Interfax) - Iskander missile systems or strategic bombers may be stationed in Belarus in response to the placement of the U.S. ABM system elements in the Czech Republic and Poland, said Russian Ambassador to Belarus Alexander Surikov.
"Are Belarus and Russia bound by the 1994 treaty [on the withdrawal of nuclear weapons from Belarus]? Of which the U.S. was a guarantor. No one can breach the treaty, but issues relating to anti- missile activities can be considered," Surikov told a press conference in Minsk.
"Among these issues is the possibility of placing Iskander missile systems in Belarus and the possible placement of strategic bombers in Belarus, Kaliningrad, etc.," he said.
"All these actions can be discussed after the U.S. has signed a treaty with Poland, and then various response measures, including the placement of nuclear weapons, can be taken," the ambassador said.
it's not about punditry for me, i'm just observing causes and effects...
Russia mulls arms in Belarus to counter U.S. shield Wed Aug 6, 2008 10:06am EDT
The United States have unnerved Moscow by its plans to install elements of its missile defense system in Poland and the Czech Republic, a measure Washington believes is needed to avert possible missile strikes from Iran.
Moscow says U.S. plans pose a threat to Russia's national security.
as for winning or losing the cold war? the "win" was a peaceful resolution....
Top Russian generals had earlier speculated that Moscow could deploy its new Iskander-M tactical surface-to surface missiles to counter the U.S. missile shield.
if it really is just Surface to Surface missiles (which i don't believe) then they are not reacting inapropriately...
Posted by bdgee on :
It isn't a political matter of blaming dubya, it is reality.
That liar and crook, under full protection (to this day!!!!) by and with full cooperation of the republican party has buried the respect for th U.S. and hope for avoiding war so deep in the s--t pile of party first fascism the whole world shakes and whimpers with any hint of aggression anywhere, by anyone.
Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: It isn't a political matter of blaming dubya, it is reality.
That liar and crook, under full protection (to this day!!!!) by and with full cooperation of the republican party has buried the respect for th U.S. and hope for avoiding war so deep in the s--t pile of party first fascism the whole world shakes and whimpers with any hint of aggression anywhere, by anyone.
Sorry, but WTF are you talking about? What does that post have to do with the topic of this thread? Not picking fight, but lost on your logic.
Posted by glassman on :
i understand Bush and Putin shook hands in Beijing today... so i'm sure this is all just a big mistake...
my bad... i was just recalling how the USSR got involved in Afghanistan the first time...
we are allied with Georgia and Russia supports the spearatists...
and yes, we have "advisors" (under 200 legally reported)in Georgia and the Russkies have troops....
i don't trust Russia, never did... nor do i trust China, and i am not convinced we should be doing business with either of them...
Posted by glassman on :
U.S., Poland strike missile deal while Russia objects
Wed July 2, 2008
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The United States and Poland have reached a tentative deal to place part of a ballistic missile defense system on its territory, a plan that has drawn sharp objections from Russia, a senior administration official said Wednesday.
The Bush administration has long pushed to base missile interceptors in Poland. The interceptor rockets would be linked to an air-defense radar system in the Czech Republic, where officials agreed in April to take part in the system.
The interceptors in the Czech Republic could identify and shoot down missiles fired by Iran at Europe or the United States. Russia fervently opposes basing the interceptors right across its border and says the system's real target would be Russian missiles, according to Time magazine.
For months, it appeared that Poland would easily accept U.S. plans. Undoubtedly, Poland is a strong U.S. ally and a vital contributor to transatlantic security, contributing a sizable contingency in Afghanistan and a vocal lobby for future eastward expansion of NATO. However, seeking millions of dollars in military aid, Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk rebuffed the latest U.S. offer on July 4.
To make matters more complicated, Polish Petroleum and Gas Mining (PGNiG), 85 percent of which is owned by the Polish state, is looking to Tehran as a source of energy. On June 30, the Polish daily Rzeczpospolita reported that PGNiG was "close" to securing a contract to extract liquefied natural gas (LNG) from Iran's Lavan gas field. While the United States fears a nuclear-armed Iran, Poland is weighing this risk against its own national security agenda -- to reduce its overwhelming dependence on Russian energy imports. Considering that total Polish demand for gas is expected to double to 24.4 billion cubic meters by mid-decade, the Polish government is reluctant to increase volumes of Russian gas. After a Russian-Ukrainian price dispute in January 2006 reduced Polish gas imports by 9 percent for several days, diversifying away from Russian gas sources looks more prudent.
'If the US and Poland ultimately reach an agreement on the installation of the missile defence system, Russia will need to consider what steps to undertake and what decisions to make', Alexander Surikov, the Russian ambassador to Belarus, said in Minsk yesterday.
According to Mr Surikov, such a response could be for Russia to deploy to Belarus and the Kaliningrad enclave its ground-ground Iskander-M missiles with which the Russian armed forces are currently being equipped. The Iskanders-M in the Kaliningrad enclave would be aimed at the Polish missile defence base, and those in Belarus - at the radar base the Czechs have already agreed to host. Russia would also move strategic bombers to bases in Belarus and around the city of Kaliningrad.
Russian generals made similar threats as Mr Surikov last year. In August, Col Gen Nikolai Bordyuzha, Secretary General of the Collective Security Treaty Organisation (a military pact of the CIS, with members including Russia, Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and Uzbekistan), said that the US missile defence project should be responded to with a 'new international military structure resembling Soviet military structures'.
The prospect of close military cooperation with Russia suits Belarussian president Alexander Lukashenko, who has reacted equally angrily to the US plans. Russia operates in Belarus a radiolocation base called Volga in the town of Gantsevichi, and a navy remote control centre in Vileika, Mink region.
"i don't trust Russia, never did... nor do i trust China, and i am not convinced we should be doing business with either of them..."
I agree. We quit doing business with either of them, and their economies collapse. It's like a new "detente", but economic based.
Weird times we live in Posted by glassman on :
wierd times alright:
the power brokers want to "do business" while saying they are "spreading freedom", yet it's our citizens freedoms that seem to be disappearing.
we funded the Afghani Mujhahadeen (no evidence that i have seen has turned up that we funded osama personally) in a direct attempt sucker the USSR deeper into a war there...
it worked... the USSR lost 50,000 men and went BKRPT... the cold war ended...
we used the Paki's as a conduit, and in return for their "help" we "allowed" them to develop nuclear weapons and helped them by training their scientists in our US and British universities...
then they sold secrets to N Korea and Iran...the guy who did it is a national hero and was pardoned...
meanwhile? we decided to industrialise China which is also communist and pretend that we are helping free their people?
old Soviet Joke: "We pretend to work, they pretend to pay us"... that's the "evil commies"...
the "good commies" work cheap...
and wars in the mideast make oil prices go uo...
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
WAR! WAR! WAR!
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Pagan:
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: It isn't a political matter of blaming dubya, it is reality.
That liar and crook, under full protection (to this day!!!!) by and with full cooperation of the republican party has buried the respect for th U.S. and hope for avoiding war so deep in the s--t pile of party first fascism the whole world shakes and whimpers with any hint of aggression anywhere, by anyone.
Sorry, but WTF are you talking about? What does that post have to do with the topic of this thread? Not picking fight, but lost on your logic.
Truthfully, it certainly looks to be that you are too picking a fight.....or at least trying to.
"Sorry, but WTF are you talking about?", you ask?
Read the thread and find out.
"What does that post have to do with the topic of this thread?", you asked?
If you had bothered to read the thread, you would have seen that it is a direct response to the post just two before it in the thread, just as th post immediately preceding is.
Now, I have a couple of questions that I will pose in bit more polite manner.
When was there a rule put into effect that there is some boundary to the subject or content of post in a thread in Off Topics at Allstocks?
Who appointed you to leadership of the "Thread Police"?
Posted by Relentless. on :
Can we please have world war three now? I am getting just a bit tired of all the anticipation... Every minor stir in any quadrant erupts into nothing more than ratings for the 24/7's... can we please have a real skirmish between good and evil?
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
Screw it....lets back Georgia and lets give the Russians a pounding and good ol fashion USA butt whooping that they have had coming to them for decades.
Posted by osubucks30 on :
Georgia sent troops to Iraq. Sure they only had about 2,000 there but they helped! Now they are getting crushed and where are we?? Doesn't seem right.
Posted by osubucks30 on :
I am not in favor of preemptive strikes. I have made that clear before. Russia is crushing a democratic elected country. So Bush says. Are we just all rhetoric?? Russia is a big country so no standing up for the little guy I guess.
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
Problem is...how do we tell russia bad dog when we told them to piss off when we went into iraq?
Posted by Relentless. on :
We don't.. and we can't. At this point we are as bad as them and their actions right now are nothing short of what we would have done had they been arming one of our former territories. Fact of the matter is we are just as much to blame for this as anyone. This is the price of all our BS. We.. just like them.. run around.. sneak around thwarting progress.. encouraging back stabbing. We are deceitful and we encourage that in everyone else with our two faced dealings with the world. This idiotic notion that everyone is our enemy and we need to control them through either force of covert psyops will end this species for all.
Posted by Relentless. on :
The moronic idea that we are somehow needed to spread "Freedom" and "Democracy" to every corner of the world when we here haven't seen it's like in over a hundred years is exactly what brings on conflicts like this.
Posted by glassman on :
Welcome to "The New American Century"
the project is so bankrupt they've even failed to pay their bills: www.newamericancentury.org/ This Account Has Been Suspended Please contact the billing/support department as soon as possible. Posted by bond006 on :
Close Window Georgia says Russia bombed after order to halt war Tuesday, August 12, 2008 TBILISI, Georgia - Russia ordered a halt to the war in Georgia on Tuesday, after five days of air and land attacks that sent Georgia's army into headlong retreat and left towns, military bases and homes in the U.S. ally smoldering. Georgia insisted that Russian forces were still bombing and shelling.
Despite the televised order by Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, Russia launched an offensive Tuesday in Abkhazia, sending tanks, armored personnel carriers and artillery toward the breakaway region.
Georgian troops were forced out of their last stronghold in the separatist province, said Maj. Gen. Anatoly Zaitsev, a defense official in Abkhazia. The claim that Georgian forces were gone could not immediately be confirmed.
And hours before the order to stop fighting, Russian jets bombed the crossroads city of Gori, near the separatist region of South Ossetia. Gori's post office and university were burning Tuesday, but the city was all but deserted after most remaining residents and Georgian soldiers fled Monday ahead of a feared Russian onslaught.
In Moscow, Medvedev said Georgia had been punished enough for its attack on South Ossetia. Georgia launched an offensive late Thursday to regain control over the separatist province, which has close ties to Russia.
"The aggressor has been punished and suffered very significant losses. Its military has been disorganized," Medvedev said.
Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili, speaking before a crowd of thousands at a Tbilisi square, said the invasion was not because Russia wanted control of the breakaway regions.
"They just don't want freedom and that's why they want to stamp on Georgia and destroy it," he said, as red and white Georgian fluttered.
Tens of thousands of terrified residents have fled the fighting - South Ossetians north to Russia, and Georgians west toward the capital of Tbilisi and east to the country's Black Sea coast.
Both sides have traded accusations of genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Russia has accused Georgia of killing more than 2,000 people, mostly civilians, in the separatist province of South Ossetia. The claim couldn't be independently confirmed, but witnesses who fled the area over the weekend said hundreds had died.
Many Georgians also have been killed in the fighting and on Tuesday, the Georgian security council said it filed a lawsuit in the International Court of Justice for alleged ethnic cleansing. The overall death toll was expected to rise because large areas of Georgia were still too dangerous for journalists to enter and see the true scope of the damage.
"It feels like an annexed country," said Lasha Margiana, the local administrator in one of the villages in the Kodori Gorge, where fleeing Georgians said the entire population had abandoned their homes.
Zaitsev, the commander in Abkhazia, said only local forces - not Russian ones - were involved in the operation to squeeze out the Georgians. But an AP reporter visiting the village of Chuberi saw 135 Russian military vehicles heading toward the Kodori Gorge. Georgian officials said their troops in the gorge were being attacked by Russians.
Medvedev assailed the West for supporting Georgia in the conflict: "International law doesn't envision double standards."
In Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian provincial capital now under Russian control, the body of a Georgian soldier lay in the street along with debris. A poster hanging nearby showed Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and the slogan "Say yes to peace and stability" as South Ossetian separatist fighters launched rockets at a Georgian plane soaring overhead. Broken glass and other debris littered the ground.
"If there are any emerging hotbeds of resistance or any aggressive actions, you should take steps to destroy them," Medvedev ordered his defense minister at a televised Kremlin meeting.
U.S. officials were focused primarily on confirming a ceasefire and attending to Georgia's urgent humanitarian needs
"It is very important now that all parties cease fire," Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said. "The Georgians have agreed to a ceasefire, the Russians need to stop their military operations as they have apparently said that they will, but those military operations really do now need to stop because calm needs to be restored."
Russia's foreign minister called for Saakashvili to resign. Medvedev said Georgia must pull its troops from the two Russian-backed breakaway provinces and allow them to decide whether they want to remain part of Russia.
"Ossetians and Abkhaz must respond to that question taking their history into account, including what happened in the past few days," Medvedev said grimly.
Thousands of Georgians poured out their support for their president at a rally in Tbilisi, crowding a main square and nearby streets as far as the eye could see and holding aloft fluttering red-and-white Georgian flags.
Georgia, which is pushing for NATO membership, borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia and was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union. South Ossetia and Abkhazia have run their own affairs without international recognition since fighting to split from Georgia in the early 1990s.
Both separatist provinces are backed by Russia, which appears open to absorbing them.
Medvedev said Tuesday that Russian peacekeepers will stay in both South Ossetia and Abkhazia; Saakashvili said his government will officially designate Russian peacekeepers in those breakaway provinces as occupying forces.
The Russian onslaught angered the West and drew tough words from President Bush, but some Georgians are disappointed that the U.S. did not intervene to protect its tiny ally.
"I'd like to think the words really do matter," U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Matthew Bryza said Tuesday in Tbilisi.
Bryza declined to say if the U.S. would provide military support in the event that Russia expands its operations: "I hope we'll never come to the question of what we do if Russia refuses to observe international law."
Georgia sits on a strategic oil pipeline carrying Caspian crude to Western markets bypassing Russia, has long been a source of contention between the West and a resurgent Russia, the dominant energy supplier to Europe. The British oil company BP shut down one of three Georgian pipelines as a precaution, although the company said it had no evidence the pipelines had suffered damage.
In villages around the South Ossetian provincial capital, separatist fighters reportedly were setting fire to Georgian houses and searching for hidden Georgian fighters.
An AP photographer in the village of Ruisi near South Ossetia saw fresh damage from a Russian air raid that locals said came just 30 minutes before Medvedev's televised statement.
Residents said three villagers were killed and another five wounded when a Russian warplane raided the village. One slain victim, 77-year old Amiran Vardzelashvili, was struck by a fragment in the heart while was working in a field.
The Georgian government said another nearby village, Sakorinto, also was bombed after Medvedev announcing a halt to fighting, as was an ambulance in the Black Sea province of Adzharia.
The U.N. and NATO called meetings Tuesday to deal with the conflict, while Poland's president and the leaders of four former Soviet republics flew to Georgia for a meeting of solidarity with Saakashvili.
"The Russian state has once again shown its face, its true face," said Poland's Lech Kaczynski, who was being joined by counterparts from Lithuania, Estonia, Ukraine and Latvia.
But he said it was "good news" that Medvedev ordered a halt to the war.
At the White House on Monday, Bush had demanded that Russia end a "dramatic and brutal escalation" of violence in Georgia, agree to an immediate cease-fire and accept international mediation.
"Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century," Bush said in a televised statement.
---
Associated Press writers Chris Torchia reported from Zugdidi, Georgia and near the Kodori Gorge; Misha Dzhindzhikhashvili from Tbilisi, Georgia; David Nowak from Gori, Georgia; Douglas Birch from Vladikavkaz, Russia; Jim Heintz, Vladimir Isachenkov and Lynn Berry from Moscow; and Pauline Jelinek from Washington.
Now they are talking about how they are going to "punish" Russia for this. I dont see this going anywhere good anytime soon.
I say we para-drop all 4 82nd airborne brigades into georgia, start rolling the armor stationed in Germany eastward full speed, and send multiple fleets with nuclear attack submarines off the eastern coast of Russia. Then the 2nd infantry division can deploy stryker brigades from Turkey (port access) and push all the Special Forces teams from Afghanistan up the belly of Russia to assist strategic targeting by stealth bombers.
4th Brigage, 25th Infantry division (airborne) can deploy from Alaska and hit up the northeastern front of Russian, and then land Marine expeditionary forces from Japan to the southeastern coast of Russia with air cover provided by A-10 warthogs stationed in south Korea that can run missions from bases there.
Naval battleships from the mediterranian sea can route their way up to the ocean just south of finland on off western russias borders. We can fly long range stealth bomber missions from guam, and from air bases in Missouri.
Yes....I can see it now. We will crush the commie *******s like we should have long ago!
Ol putin will never change...that ol KGB ******* trying to run moscow like stalingrad.
Posted by bdgee on :
We spent all our might in Iraq and the Russians know it. They don't have to care what we think and they know it.
We pooped away our might. Not only politically on an illegal war, but we wasted all our military material and strength subduing a tin horn dufus running a third world country, just to keep big oil on top of our own financial heap.
Posted by bond006 on :
Yes so is the way your enemies think in Iraq we have shown nothing but weakness not in the original bttle but the occupation has been a big failure and shows the world that we are having a hard time in controling a rabble.
and after dinking around for years we will leave and the government in Iraq will most likley fall in 6 months or less and we will look like fools.
Ivan is still big and strong they called flight suits bluff on this and won.
We lost face to the world.
Bush hs got to learn to back up his big mouth or learn how to control it.And remember he is not in a bar half lit bragging about how tough he is.
Posted by Pagan on :
This could get bad quick if everyone is not careful.....
Bush orders U.S. military to help Georgian civilians NEW: U.S. Air Force jet lands in Georgia with humanitarian aid NEW: Bush warns Russia not to interfere with humanitarian shipments U.S., allies may kick Russia out of G-8, international organizations as punishment
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush said Wednesday he is dispatching U.S. military personnel to Georgia in a "vigorous and ongoing" mission to provide humanitarian aid to victims of the fighting between Russian and Georgian troops.
Shortly after Bush spoke, the White House announced that a U.S. Air Force C-17 cargo jet carrying medical supplies arrived in the Georgian capital of Tbilisi.
Another C-17 is to arrive in Tbilisi on Thursday carrying more supplies, including 104,000 doses of antibiotics requested by the Georgian Ministry of Health, a State Department spokesman said. The value of both shipments is $1.28 million, he said.
Bush said more U.S. military aid missions were planned by the Navy and Air Force.
He warned Russia not to interfere with any relief efforts.
"We expect Russia to honor its commitment to let in all forms of humanitarian assistance. We expect Russia to ensure that all lines of communication and transport, including seaports, airports, roads and airspace, remain open for the delivery of humanitarian assistance and for civilian transit," Bush said at the White House.
Russia sent troops and tanks into the breakaway Georgia region of South Ossetia last week after Georgia's military acted to clamp down on Russian-linked separatists there. Separatists in South Ossetia want independence -- or unification with North Ossetia, which is in Russia.
Russian forces have since moved out of South Ossetia and into other parts of Georgia.
Bush said he expected Russia to honor a truce agreement made Tuesday.
"We expect Russia to meet its commitment to cease all military activities in Georgia, and we expect all Russian forces that entered Georgia in recent days to withdraw from that country," Bush said.
Because of the situation in Georgia, Bush has decided to delay his summer vacation at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, for "a day or two," White House Secretary Dana Perino said.
The president said he was sending Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to Europe to express "America's unwavering support" for the Georgian government.
Rice will travel to France, which negotiated the ceasefire between Russia and Georgia on Tuesday. Rice will then head to Tbilisi, Bush said.
After traveling to Paris and Tbilisi, Rice will travel to NATO headquarters in Brussels, Belgium, on Tuesday where she will meet with NATO's Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer and ministers of the North Atlantic Council, the alliance's governing body, spokeswoman Carmen Romero told CNN.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy, acting as the president of the European Union, had negotiated the ceasefire agreement between Russia and Georgia, which called on the two nations to return to the positions they held on August 6, before Georgia's crackdown on South Ossetia. Watch Bush express support for Georgia's democracy »
Bush said the United States is concerned about reports that Russian units have taken positions on the east side of Gori, which is just outside of South Ossetia, and that they have entered and taken positions in the Black Sea port city of Poti.
Russian personnel carriers were moving toward the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, CNN's Matthew Chance also reported on Wednesday.
Dimitry Peskov, a spokesman for the Russian government, said Wednesday that the troops were demilitarizing the area near the South Ossetia border and "never had plans" to travel to the capital. Watch the Russian spokesman explain tank movements »
State Department officials said they were concerned by Russia's moves.
Administration officials told CNN that the United States and its European allies were considering kicking Russia out of the G-8, the group of the world's largest industrial economies, and other international organizations as punishment for its actions in Georgia. They also said Russia's relationship with NATO is also at risk. Watch Russian tanks move toward Tbilisi »
The United States appears to have let its European allies take the lead on the diplomatic efforts to stop the fighting in Georgia, Zain Verjee, CNN's State Department correspondent, said.
The Europeans have a greater influence over Russia and the United States needs Russia to help with other thorny diplomatic issues, such as efforts to pressure Iran to suspend its nuclear program, Verjee reported.
Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili criticized the United States on Wednesday during an interview with CNN for not taking more measures to help. Watch Saakashvili fault the U.S. response »
"America is losing the whole region, and this is the region of eastern and central Europe," said Saakashvili, who called for U.S. and European powers to send peacekeepers to the region. "This is much bigger than any other place where there is American influence, and this is the most natural allies of America."
But U.S. officials said they warned Saakashvili not to provoke Russia militarily by sending Georgian troops into South Ossetia and that they had ruled out any U.S. military action to defend Georgia.
Russia's move in Georgia is happening amid an overall struggle between the United States and Russia for influence within Eastern Europe. From Russia's point of view, American support for Georgia is a direct threat to its influence.
By striking heavily in Georgia, Moscow, Russia, is sending a signal to other former Soviet republics, such as Ukraine and Moldova, said Sarah Mendelson, the director of the Human Rights and Security Initiative at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.
"If I were a neighbor of Russia and I saw what Russia had done in Georgia, I would be very nervous," Mendelson said. "I think those countries that are leaning toward the West are very nervous today."
Copyright 2008 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.
All AboutRepublic of Georgia • U.S. Department of State • Russia
i wonder if Bush will be remembered well when Russia decides to cut off Europes Nat Gas over our interference? this is a good way to get to hellinabucket fast...
Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: i wonder if Bush will be remembered well when Russia decides to cut off Europes Nat Gas over our interference? this is a good way to get to hellinabucket fast...
Did you see the recent press confernece by Georgia's leader, he was flanked by the leaders of Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine, Poland, and 2 other former Soviet Republics denouncing the aggression. The mix is getting thick.
Posted by glassman on :
no i was busy today, but i have been catching up on history in Georgia...
keep in mind that if we add them to Nato? we would be obliged by treaty to defend them against Russia. that's a major part of what this is all about... the other part is US putting missiles in the area...
it would be like if Russia put missiles in Cuba here.... oh yeah... i seem to have heard some rumor about something like that...
Posted by Pagan on :
Big difference glass, our missiles are "shootdown missiles", not first strike missiles. Thats what is pissing Russia off. Any aggression, missile wise, they make against a neighbor can be nullified.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Pagan: Big difference glass, our missiles are "shootdown missiles", not first strike missiles. Thats what is pissing Russia off. Any aggression, missile wise, they make against a neighbor can be nullified.
i don't argue that, and i know we've offered to allow the Russkies to inspect the missile sites...
"shoot down" missile sites can be "upgraded" pretty fast, and targeting sytems don't differ that much...
i'm not defending Putin, he's definitely got on top ofhis dung heap and he's crowing loud, but there's more history here than the News is publishing.
for instance? the "breakaway republics" the Russians are "defending" are ethnically not Georgian or Russian.... the Georgians have been fighting with them off and on since they broke from the USSR...
mostly? i doubt Putin cares much what Dubya says, and he decided what Dubya could do about this before they acted...
Posted by Peaser on :
Might McCain(or Bushs' third term, as bdgee puts it) take on Colin Powell as a running mate to win the black vote?
That might just win the election for that bitter old man.
Posted by Peaser on :
i don't trust Russia, never did...
I'm guessing that the administration is going by the ole "keep your enemies even closer" saying.
Administration meaning both Putin(Medvedeva) and Bush admins.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Peaser: Might McCain(or Bushs' third term, as bdgee puts it) take on Colin Powell as a running mate to win the black vote?
That might just win the election for that bitter old man.
that might do it Pease, i'mnot sure General Powell is a GOP anymore tho...
my concern wit' Georgia is that sending our troops in on a humanitarian mission is the EXACT SAME EXCUSE the Russkies used to invade... they called it peacekeeping etc...
Posted by Peaser on :
then they sold secrets to N Korea and Iran...the guy who did it is a national hero and was pardoned...
and who was the pardonee?
Posted by glassman on :
A Q Kahn:
February 5, 2004 Pakistan's president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, made the announcement today. He has pardoned the father of his country's nuclear program, Abdul Qadeer Khan. Khan was accused and reportedly admitted sending nuclear and missile technology to Libya, Iran and North Korea.
Abdul Qadeer KhanWidely revered in Pakistan as a national hero, Khan confessed to the leaks on television yesterday, and later asked in writing for a pardon from President Musharraf. Posted by Peaser on :
the "good commies" work cheap...
damn ruskie wet-backs...
Posted by Peaser on :
The United States appears to have let its European allies take the lead on the diplomatic efforts to stop the fighting in Georgia, Zain Verjee, CNN's State Department correspondent, said.
Good move... Save as much as we can. We already wasted many of our resources in Iraq.
"America is losing the whole region, and this is the region of eastern and central Europe," said Saakashvili
geez... makes it sound like we dun own'em.
Posted by glassman on :
wow, i just found some really wierd neo-con "rumors"
Randy Scheunemann, for four years a paid lobbyist for the Georgian government who ended his official lobbying connection only in March, months after he became Republican presidential candidate John McCain's senior foreign policy adviser.
Scheunemann was best known as one of the neoconservatives who engineered the war in Iraq when he was a director of the Project for a New American Century. It was Scheunemann who, after working on the McCain 2000 presidential campaign, headed the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, which championed the U.S. invasion of Iraq.
In 2005, while registered as a paid lobbyist for Georgia, Scheunemann worked with McCain to draft a congressional resolution pushing for Georgia's membership in NATO. A year later, while still on the Georgian payroll, Scheunemann accompanied McCain on a trip to that country, where they met with Saakashvili and supported his bellicose views toward Russia's Vladimir Putin.
hmmmm.... i guess they stopped paying for the Project for a New American Century Site for a reason....
Randy Scheunemann (196?) is the President of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, which was created by the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), of which he is a board member. He was Trent Lott's National Security Aide and was an advisor to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on Iraq. He is 2008 Presidential candidate John McCain's foreign-policy aide.
Scheunemann holds a degree from the University of Minnesota, and did graduate work at Tufts University. He moved to Capitol Hill in 1986, joining the office of Senator Dave Durenberger. In 1993, he joined the staff of Senator Bob Dole as foreign policy advisor. Before joining the Mercury Group PR firm in 1998, he worked also for Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott.[1]
Scheunemann has been criticized for his close association with Ahmad Chalabi during the George W. Bush administration's campaign to generate public support for the 2003 invasion of Iraq.[2]
that is some screwball stuff..... or was it curveball? maybe they were both codenames for the guys that supplied Bush all of his intel for the Iraqi WMD...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Peaser: The United States appears to have let its European allies take the lead on the diplomatic efforts to stop the fighting in Georgia, Zain Verjee, CNN's State Department correspondent, said.
Good move... Save as much as we can. We already wasted many of our resources in Iraq.
Yes that is true about our resources but the Georgia conflict is the perfect example of what conflicts we should get involved with. The type where our allies are being invaded by a hostile country... so we invade Iraq who was no threat to us & wasn't being hostile to it's neighbors who are our allies.... but we do nothing military wise towards Iran, N. Korea or Russia for being threats to us and our allies.... go figure...
Posted by glassman on :
remember? this started when Georgia attacked South Ossetia. Russia retaliated :
Hundreds dead in Russia-Georgia conflict
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS • August 8, 2008
DZHAVA, Georgia — Russia sent columns of tanks and reportedly bombed Georgian air bases Friday after Georgia launched a major military offensive Friday to retake the breakaway province of South Ossetia, threatening to ignite a broader conflict.
Hundreds of civilians were reported dead in the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won defacto independence in a war against Georgia that ended in 1992. Witnesses said the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali was devastated.
“I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings, in cars,” said Lyudmila Ostayeva, 50, who had fled with her family to Dzhava, a village near the border with Russia. “It’s impossible to count them now. There is hardly a single building left undamaged.”
The fighting broke out as much of the world’s attention was focused on the start of the Olympic Games and many leaders, including Russia’s Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and President Bush, were in Beijing.
The timing suggests Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili may have been counting on surprise to fulfill his longtime pledge to wrest back control of South Ossetia — a key to his hold on power.
what won't people do to manipulate public opinion? Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Peaser: the "good commies" work cheap...
damn ruskie wet-backs...
Except they are not commies anymore...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
what won't people do to manipulate public opinion?
Our own media is not innocent of manipulating public opinions themselves Glass. All media's in all countries do that imo. But i do tend to agree with the article below (coming from a Right Wing paper no less)about Russia manipulating Georgia into attacking Ossentia to give it a excuse for invasion and that Russia's military was prepared for this month's in advance:
it wouldn't surprise me if Bush and Putin were not joking around in Beijing about how upset everybody will be.... and how they can both spin this to their political advantages
Georgia and Ossienta have had many confrontations since georgia broke away from the USSR...
but for this guy Randy Scheunemann to pop up again like this is just another one too many coincidences...
Posted by Peaser on :
so we invade Iraq who was no threat to us & wasn't being hostile to it's neighbors who are our allies....
yup, everyone was duped...
the burden of proof remains...
who knew the truth?
Posted by bdgee on :
When it comes to staring a war, the burden of proof must be met before hostilities begin, not left hanging for later generations to consider.
Posted by Peaser on :
Except they are not commies anymore...
thus "good commies" being mentioned...
"good" should have been in bold, representing a sarcastic view on an old, yet prevalent point of view.
Posted by glassman on :
who knew the truth?
Book says White House ordered forgery By MIKE ALLEN | 8/5/08 11:51 AM EST Updated: 8/5/08 11:51 AM EST
A new book by the author Ron Suskind claims that the White House ordered the CIA to forge a back-dated, handwritten letter from the head of Iraqi intelligence to Saddam Hussein.
Suskind writes in “The Way of the World,” to be published Tuesday, that the alleged forgery – adamantly denied by the White House – was designed to portray a false link between Hussein’s regime and al Qaeda as a justification for the Iraq war.
The author also claims that the Bush administration had information from a top Iraqi intelligence official “that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq – intelligence they received in plenty of time to stop an invasion.”
The letter’s existence has been reported before, and it had been written about as if it were genuine. It was passed in Baghdad to a reporter for The (London) Sunday Telegraph who wrote about it on the front page of Dec. 14, 2003, under the headline, “Terrorist behind September 11 strike ‘was trained by Saddam.’”
The Telegraph story by Con Coughlin (which, coincidentally, ran the day Hussein was captured in his “spider hole”) was touted in the U.S. media by supporters of the war, and he was interviewed on NBC's "Meet the Press."
of course this is "just another" book being written to capitalise on Bush's uh, er uh, i guess incompetence Posted by Peaser on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: When it comes to staring a war, the burden of proof must be met before hostilities begin, not left hanging for later generations to consider.
Yup, thus everyone was duped.
Posted by bdgee on :
No, dubya and the republican elite were NOT duped.
While most of us are truly among all the dupees, the republican elite are all among the dupers.
Posted by bond006 on :
Close Window Bush warns Russia over disputed Georgian provinces Saturday, August 16, 2008 CRAWFORD, Texas - President George W. Bush sent a stern warning to Russia on Saturday that it cannot lay claim to two breakaway provinces in neighboring Georgia, a U.S. ally, and said there was no room for debate on that point.
Searching for signs of progress, Bush told reporters at his Texas ranch that Russian President Dmitry Medvedev's signing Saturday of a cease-fire plan was an important development - "a hopeful step."
"Now, Russia needs to honor that agreement and withdraw its forces and, of course, end military operations" from Georgia, a small former Soviet state on Russia's southwest border.
The Russian foreign minister said Thursday that Georgia could "forget about" getting back the two separatist regions, South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Medvedev also met with their leaders in Kremlin this past week, raising the prospect that Moscow could absorb the regions even though the territory is internationally recognized as being within Georgia's borders.
The U.S. says this is a monumental sticking point in resolving the more than weeklong conflict.
"A major issue is Russia's contention that the regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia may not be a part of Georgia's future," Bush said, standing alongside Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. "These regions are a part of Georgia and the international community has repeatedly made clear that they will remain so."
Bush said that because Georgia is a member of the United Nations, its borders should be respected the same as any other nation's. Moreover, the U.N. Security Council has passed numerous resolutions based on the premise that South Ossetia and Abkhazia remain within Georgia and that international negotiations seek to resolve conflict in those areas.
"Russia itself has endorsed these resolutions," Bush said. "The international community is clear that South Ossetia and Abkhazia are part of Georgia, and the United States fully recognizes this reality."
Earlier Saturday, Bush called Canada's prime minister, Stephen Harper, and Latvia's president, Valdis Zatlers, to discuss the situation in Georgia.
Bush did not take questions from media gathered in tall grass and cacti outside an office structure at the ranch. Rice arrived at the ranch around 5:30 a.m. local time after a flight from the Georgian capital of Tblisi. She participated in a meeting with Bush and his national security team, which included Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Robert Gates and national security adviser Stephen Hadley via videoconference from Washington. Afterward, Rice chatted with reporters.
She did not specify what, if any, repercussions Russia might face for its actions.
"We'll take our time and look at further consequences for what Russia has done," she said. The U.S. and the European Union already have raised concerns "about the way Russia has done this. I think you will start to see reports come out about what Russian forces engaged in."
She said that unlike in the past, Russia cares deeply about its global reputation. "I think actually Russia will care about this talk, because it's not just talk, it's about Russia's standing in the international community," Rice said.
She said that the agreement that French President Nicolas Sarkozy negotiated and that both nations have signed is specific about future Russian troop presence in Georgia. According to Rice, the Russian president told Sarkozy, the current leader of the European Union, that the minute that Georgia signed the document that Russian forces would begin to withdraw.
"So from my point of view, and I'm in contact with the French, the Russians are perhaps already not honoring their word," she said.
The cease-fire agreement calls for both forces to pull back to positions they held before fighting erupted Aug. 8. That was when Georgia launched a massive barrage to try to take control of the Russian-backed separatist region of South Ossetia. The Russian army quickly overwhelmed the forces of its small U.S.-backed neighbor, and Moscow's troops drove deep into Georgia.
The agreement, Rice said, is specific about future Russian troop presence in Georgia.
"The world has watched with alarm as Russia invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatened a democratic government elected by its people," Bush said in his weekly radio address. "This act is completely unacceptable to the free nations of the world."
Keeping up the diplomatic pressure, Rice planned to go to Brussels next week for meetings with the foreign ministers of NATO allies and European Union officials.
The crisis has chilled relations between the United States and Russia. The fighting comes as the U.S. is sealing the deal on a missile shield in Europe - an issue already unraveling ties between the two former Cold War foes.
Poland and the U.S. signed a deal Thursday for Poland to accept a missile interceptor base as part of a system the U.S. says is aimed at blocking attacks by adversaries such as Iran.
Moscow feels it is aimed at Russia's missile force. A Russian general was quoted by Interfax News Agency on Friday as saying that by accepting a U.S. missile defense battery, Poland was "exposing itself to a strike."
The missile deal awaits approval by Poland's parliament and signing by Rice during a future visit to Warsaw, possibly in the week ahead.
That is sure to further antagonize Russia. But the U.S. wants to be careful to alienate Moscow and drive Russian leaders away from further integration with the West.
"Russia's actions in Georgia raise serious questions about its role and its intentions in the Europe of the 21st century," Bush said. "In recent years, Russia has sought to integrate into the diplomatic, political, economic, and security structures of the West. The United States has supported those efforts. Now Russia has put its aspirations at risk by taking actions in Georgia that are inconsistent with the principles of those institutions.
"To begin to repair the damage to its relations with the United States, Europe, and other nations, and to begin restoring its place in the world, Russia must act to end this crisis."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by wallymac on :
Haven't read the whole thread but does anybody else feel that Bush stance has a bit of Hipocracy to it?
I mean he has invaded 2 countries, which are still being occupied by the US that are a lot farther away from us than Georgia is from Russia. Also wasn't it Georgia that created this situation by attempting to recapture territories that had broken away? That in conjunction with the US getting closer to placing missiles in Poland, IMO, left little else for Russia to do.
HMM, I wonder what the US would do if Russia attempted to place missile in, say Cuba. Oh that's right they already did, it was called the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Go figure.
Posted by bond006 on :
Close Window US worries Russia returning to its past Sunday, August 17, 2008 WASHINGTON - Russia is showing signs of returning to its authoritarian past and its invasion of Georgia will require the U.S. to re-evaluate the strategic relationship between the superpowers, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Sunday.
Joining in the hard-line rhetoric, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice accused Russian President Dmitry Medvedev of failing to honoring a promise to withdrawing troops quickly from Georgia under terms of a cease-fire he signed Saturday.
"I hope this time he'll keep his word," Rice said after Medvedev announced the withdrawal would begin Monday.
Shadows of the Cold War emerged as the Bush administration struggled for the appropriate response to Russia's aggression against its smaller U.S.-backed neighbor, which Moscow ruled for most of the two centuries before the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union.
"There's a real concern that Russia has turned a corner here and is headed back to its past rather than its future," Gates said.
"The fact is we have worked hard to bring them (the Russians) into the community of nations. ... We thought they were headed in that direction," he added. "Now we have to re-evaluate all that."
Rice said Medvedev had pledged that when Georgia's president signed the cease-fire, Russian forces would begin to withdraw. But that did not happen.
"Russia currently is not in compliance with that cease-fire," Rice said. "I don't have an explanation because I would think that when the Russian president says that a signed cease-fire accord will mean the withdrawal of Russian forces, that Russian forces would then withdraw. They did not. However, yet again, the Russian president has given his word, and this time, I hope he'll honor it."
Fighting broke out after Georgia launched a massive barrage Aug. 7 to try to take control of the separatist province of South Ossetia. The Russian army quickly overwhelmed Georgia's forces and drove deep into the country, raising fears that of a long-term Russian occupation.
Rice spoke on "Fox News Sunday" while Gates appeared on "This Week" on ABC.
Posted by Relentless. on :
Posted by glassman on :
m1A1 Mike; i like that... i wonder if his last name is Abrams? Posted by bond006 on :
Close Window US, allies contemplating action against Russia Sunday, August 17, 2008 CRAWFORD, Texas - The United States on Sunday accused Russia of stalling its military pullback in Georgia, but the Bush administration is not rushing to repudiate Moscow for its actions.
The White House is struggling to figure out the best way to penalize Russia. It doesn't want to deeply damage existing cooperation on many fronts or discourage Moscow from further integrating itself into global economic and political institutions. At the same time, U.S. officials say Russia can't be allowed to get away with invading its neighbor.
Fighting broke out after Georgia launched a massive barrage Aug. 7 to try to take control of the separatist province of South Ossetia, which is heavily influenced by Russia. The Russian army quickly overwhelmed Georgia's forces, then drove deep into the country, bombed Georgian ports and military installations and tied up an east-west highway through the nation.
"There's no doubt there will be further consequences," said Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who briefed President George W. Bush on the fast-changing crisis over the weekend at his Texas ranch.
She returned to Washington on Sunday and is flying to Europe on Monday to talk with NATO allies about what message the West should send to Russia.
Russia can't use "disproportionate force" against its neighbor and still be welcomed into the halls of international institutions, Rice said.
"It's not going to happen that way," she said. "Russia will pay a price."
But neither Rice nor Defense Secretary Robert Gates would be specific about what punitive actions the U.S. or the international community might take.
"We're going to take our time and assess what further consequences there should be to the relationship," Rice said.
The United States wants to take a tough stance against Russia, but there is much at stake.
"The facts are that the United States has to work with Russia on Iran, on nuclear problems of proliferation, on a whole raft of trade issues at a time in which the United States has a huge domestic deficit," said Sen. Richard Lugar, the senior Republican on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
And holding open the prospect of taking steps against Russia gives the United States some leverage in pushing Russia to withdraw from Georgia. But nothing is expected to happen in a hurry, and the United States doesn't want to turn the conflict into a fight between the former Cold War rivals.
"There is no need to rush into everything," Gates said. "We don't want to do it unilaterally.
"I think there needs to be a strong, unified response to Russia to send the message that this kind of behavior, characteristic of the Soviet period, has no place in the 21st century," he said.
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said Russian troops will begin leaving Monday, but made no mention of leaving the separatist province at the heart of the conflict between the countries.
The Bush administration is hopeful yet skeptical that Russia will honor its pledge to withdraw troops quickly from Georgia under terms of a cease-fire it signed Saturday.
"My own view is that the Russians will probably stall and perhaps take more time than anybody would like," Gates said. "I think we just need to keep the pressure and ensure that they abide by the agreement that they've signed and do so in a timely way."
Konstantin Kosachev, chairman of the Russian parliament's foreign affairs committee, said Russian forces will be out of Georgia "sooner or later."
Echoing Bush's call to withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq depending on conditions on the ground, Kosachev said: "If I would ask you ... `How fast the American forces can leave Iraq?' ... the answer would be, as soon as we have guarantees for peace and security there. The same answer would be toward this situation."
Posted by Relentless. on :
quote: m1A1 Mike; i like that... i wonder if his last name is Abrams? [Big Grin]
His restraint is amazing..
Posted by bond006 on :
George is hidding in Crawford now stomping his little feet. And screaming I want a third world army to fight how come my generals don't listen to me a third world army don't you understand.
Posted by Relentless. on :
quote:The White House is struggling to figure out the best way to penalize Russia. It doesn't want to deeply damage existing cooperation on many fronts or discourage Moscow from further integrating itself into global economic and political institutions. At the same time, U.S. officials say Russia can't be allowed to get away with invading its neighbor.
Why the hell is it up to us of all nations to punish or seek their punishment? How the hell is this possible? Since 1914 or so we have been at war pretty much non-stop with any nation that never really was a threat to us.. and somehow anyone listens when we get mad about what looks like actually a pretty legitimate military action? Amazing.
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
Damnit.
This is the door we opened when Bushy had his minister of defence say we didn't have time to find concrete proof before taking action.
This is the door we opened by going into Iraq on a false pretense.
This is the door we opened by getting our military involved in a long term occupation.
This is the door we opened...and Russia just stepped through. And they know damned well that even if we shift all our military focus to a new theatre tomorrow it'll be 6 months before a strong presence will be available.
F'N administration that doesn't know how to see beyond their own fat heads!
Posted by glassman on :
that's why this would be funny if it wasn't so damn real:
"Bullying and intimidation are not acceptable ways to conduct foreign policy in the 21st century," he said. Mr Bush also said Russia had damaged its credibility with the West by invading Georgia. Posted by glassman on :
Georgia-Russia conflict a blow to Bush foreign policy The president's reliance on diplomacy based on personal relations with leaders such as Putin and his push to establish democracies from the top down has proved not so viable.
NEWS ANALYSISBy Julian E. Barnes, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer 3:52 PM PDT, August 17, 2008
WASHINGTON -- In the last week, two major pillars of President Bush's approach to foreign policy have crumbled, jeopardizing eight years of work and sending the administration scrambling for new strategies in the waning months of its term.
From the earliest days of his presidency, Bush had said spreading democracy was a centerpiece of his foreign policy. At the same time, he sought to develop a more productive relationship with Russia, seeking Moscow's cooperation on issues such as terrorism, Iran's nuclear program and expansion of global energy supplies.
And in pursuing both these major goals, Bush relied heavily on developing what he saw as strong personal relationships with foreign leaders.
The recent setbacks to the president's approach were all the more unsettling because Georgia had appeared to be one of the few success stories in the administration's effort to nurture new democracies that could advance U.S. interests.
Although U.S. officials say they repeatedly warned Georgia not to give Russia an excuse to attack, many observers believe the warm embrace that the administration gave President Mikheil Saakashvili gave him a false sense of support and a mistaken view that his friendship with the U.S. would deter a large-scale Russian invasion.
James J. Townsend Jr., a former Pentagon official now with the Atlantic Council, said emerging democracies and democratic movements often assume the U.S. can or will do more to back them. But the realities of international affairs mean American cheerleading may be simply that.
"I have seen it over and over again be misconstrued by nations not used to dealing with us," Townsend said. "I think they misunderstand our eagerness and enthusiasm and think we are going to be behind them for anything.
"That is what happened in Hungary in 1956 and in Czechoslovakia in 1968," he added, referring to Soviet invasions of those two nations to crush uprisings.
"Every president has to stand for democracy," Gelb said. "But the notion of force-feeding democracy into societies that have never practiced it is a mistake. And in most cases we pay some price for trying to do it."
Close Window Rice says NATO will defeat Russian aims in Georgia Monday, August 18, 2008 BRUSSELS, Belgium - Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Monday that Russia is playing a "very dangerous game" with the U.S. and its allies and warned that NATO would not allow Moscow to win in Georgia, destabilize Europe or draw a new Iron Curtain through it.
On her way to an emergency NATO foreign ministers meeting on the crisis, Rice said the alliance would punish Russia for its invasion of the Georgia and deny its ambitions by rebuilding and fully backing Georgia and other Eastern European democracies.
"We have to deny Russian strategic objectives, which are clearly to undermine Georgia's democracy, to use its military capability to damage and in some cases destroy Georgian infrastructure and to try and weaken the Georgian state," she said.
"We are determined to deny them their strategic objective," Rice told reporters aboard her plane, adding that any attempt to recreate the Cold War by drawing a "new line" through Europe and intimidating former Soviet republics and ex-satellite states into submission would fail.
"We are not going to allow Russia to draw a new line at those states that are not yet integrated into the trans-Atlantic structures," she said, referring to Georgia and Ukraine, which have not yet joined NATO or the European Union but would like to.
Rice could not say what NATO would eventually decide to do to make its position clear but said the alliance would speak with one voice "to clearly indicate that we are not accepting a new line."
At the same time, she said that by flexing its military muscle in Georgia as well as elsewhere, including the resumption of Cold War-era strategic bomber patrols off the coast of Alaska, Russia was engaged in high-stakes brinksmanship that could backfire.
This "is a very dangerous game and perhaps one the Russians want to reconsider," Rice said of the flights that began again with frequency about six months ago. "This is not something that is just cost-free. Nobody needs Russian strategic aviation along America's coast."
At Tuesday's meeting, the NATO ministers will consider a range of upcoming activities planned with Russia - from military exercises to ministerial meetings - and decide case-by-case at the meeting Tuesday whether to go ahead or cancel each.
They will also discuss support for a planned international monitoring mission in the region and a package of support to help Georgia rebuild infrastructure damaged in its devastating defeat at the hands of the Russian armed forces.
And, she suggested that Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, who signed an E.U.-backed cease-fire brokered by the French, may be unable to exert power behind the scenes against his powerful predecessor, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, or the Russian military.
She said she thought the French would be seeking "an explanation from the Russians for why the Russian president either won't or can't keep his word."
"It didn't take that long for the Russian forces to get in and it really shouldn't take that long for them to get out," Rice said.
Amid worsening relations with Moscow, NATO ministers were expected to review a range of military, ministerial and other upcoming activities planned with Russia - and decide on a case by case basis whether to cancel each activity.
Russian troops and tanks have controlled a wide swath of Georgia for days. They also began a campaign to disable the Georgian military, destroying or carting away large caches of military equipment.
Two senior U.S. officials said on condition of anonymity Monday that intelligence also showed the Russian military had moved several SS-21 missile launchers into South Ossetia, in range of Tbilisi.
The move Friday allows Russia to pull out of Georgia proper as promised, but punish Tbilisi at any moment with the push of a button. Experts said it is the same weapon system used in October 1999, when missiles slammed into the Chechen capital of Grozny and killed at least 140 people.
All of the missiles that were fired into Georgia during the conflict were fired from Russian territory, one of the administration officials said.
Defense Department spokesman Bryan Whitman declined to confirm the report of the missile launchers, but said such positioning would be prohibited by the cease-fire that Russia agreed to.
"Anything such as that, or any other military equipment that was moved in, would be in violation of the cease-fire and should be removed immediately," Whitman said.
Meanwhile, Dmitry Rogozin, Russia's ambassador to NATO, warned that an anti-Russian propaganda campaign could jeopardize existing security cooperation. "We hope that tomorrow's decisions by NATO will be balanced and that responsible forces in the West will give up the total cynicism that has been so evident (which) is pushing us back to the Cold War era," he told reporters Monday.
Washington has denied Rogozin's claims that it is out to wreck the NATO-Russia Council - a consultative panel set up in 2002 to improve relations between the former Cold War foes.
"We don't want to destroy the NATO-Russia Council, but Russia's actions have called into question the premise of the NATO-Russia relationship," U.S. Ambassador Kurt Volker said ahead of the NATO talks.
---
Posted by glassman on :
SS-21 SCARAB (9K79 Tochka)
The SS-21 SCARAB (9K79 Tochka) single-stage, short-range, tactical-ballistic missile is transported and fired from the 9P129 6x6 wheeled transporter erector launcher. It is supported by a tactical transloader (9T218) and a 9T238 missile transporter trailer towed by a ZIL-131 truck. The 9P129 TEL crew compartment is in the forward section and the missile compartment behind. During transport the missile is enclosed with the warhead in a temperature-controlled casing.
The SS-21 SCARAB missile (9M79) has a maximum range of 70 km and a CEP of 160 meters, while the improved composite propellant 9M79-1 (Tochka-U) has a maximum range of 120 km. The basic warhead is the 9N123F HE-Frag warhead which has 120 kg of high explosives. The 9N123K submunition warhead can probably carry either bomblets or mines. The SS-21 can also carry the AA60 tactical nuclear warhead. Other warheads are believed to include chemical, terminally guided warhead, and a smart-munition bomblet warhead. In 1981, the SS-21, a guided missile (providing improvement in both range and accuracy), began replacing the FROG in forward-deployed divisions, and 140 are were deployed as of 1988. Division-level SS-21 battalions were being consolidated into brigades in Soviet armies in East Germany.
On 21 October 1999 US satellites [reportedly the Defense Support Program] tracked two Russian short-range ballistic missile launched from the Russian city of Mozdok some 60 miles northeast of Grozny. The missiles slammed into a crowded Grozny marketplace and a maternity ward, killing at least 143 persons, according to reports from the region. The missiles are believed by intelligence analysts to have been SS-21s.
The final seizure of the city was set in early February 2000, when the Russian military lured the besieged militants to a promised safe passage. Seeing that there was no build-up of forces outside, the militants agreed. One day prior to the planned evacuation, the Russian Army mined the path between the city and the village of Alkhan-Kala and concentrated most firepower on that point. As a result, both the city mayor and military commander were killed; a number of other prominent separatist leaders were also killed or wounded, including Shamil Basayev and several hundred rank-and-file militants. Afterwards, the Russians slowly entered the empty city and on February 6 raised the Russian flag in the centre. Many buildings and even whole areas of the city were systematically dynamited. A month later, it was declared safe to allow the residents to return to their homes, although demolishing continued for some time. In 2003 the United Nations called Grozny the most destroyed city on earth.[3] Posted by bond006 on :
Close Window Russia claims pullback but forces move other way Monday, August 18, 2008 GORI, Georgia - Russia said Monday it had begun withdrawing from the conflict zone in Georgia, but it held fast to key positions and sent some of its troops in the opposite direction - closer to the Georgian capital.
Russian troops and vehicles roamed freely around the strategically located central city of Gori, Russian forces appeared to blow up the runway at a military base in the western town of Senaki.
There were few signs Russia was following the terms of a cease-fire to end the short war, which has driven tensions between Russia and the West to some of their highest levels since the breakup of the Soviet Union.
In Paris, the French foreign minister said it appeared "we are witnessing the start" of a Russian withdrawal, but warned France would call an emergency meeting of the European Council to talk about consequences for Russia if that was not the case.
But U.S. defense and military officials said they had seen no significant movement yet of Russian troops withdrawing from Georgia.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, on her way to an emergency meeting of NATO foreign ministers, said Russia was playing a "very dangerous game and perhaps one the Russians want to reconsider."
She said the United States and its allies would not allow Russia to draw a "new line" through Europe and intimidate former Soviet republics and former satellite states.
The foreign ministers were set to meet Tuesday in Brussels, Belgium, to consider whether to go ahead with upcoming activities planned with Russia, from military exercises to diplomatic meetings.
The European Union-brokered peace plan signed by both Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili calls for both sides to pull forces back to the positions they held before fighting broke out Aug. 7. Medvedev had told French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Sunday that Russian troops would begin pulling back on Monday, but stopped short of promising they would return to Russia.
Russia sent its tanks and troops into Georgia after Georgia cracked down on the separatist, pro-Russian province of South Ossetia. Fighting has also flared in a second breakaway region, Abkhazia.
In Moscow, the deputy chief of the Russian general staff, Col.-Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, told a briefing that "today, according to the peace plan, the withdrawal of Russian peacekeepers and reinforcements has begun" and said forces were leaving Gori.
But Russian tanks and troops roamed freely around the city and made forays toward the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, 55 miles to the southeast. Russia also kept control of the critical highway that slices through Georgia's midsection.
AP reporters saw four Russian armored personnel carriers, each carrying about 15 men, rolling from Gori to Igoeti, a crossroads town even closer to Tbilisi, passing Georgian soldiers who sat by the roadside.
The Russians moved into Igoeti then turned off onto a side road. As the Russian vehicles rolled past a group of Georgian soldiers and policemen, one swerved and scraped a new Georgian police car. The Georgians looked down at their fingernails.
U.S. officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were discussing intelligence reports, said at least one Russian battalion equipped with more than a dozen SS-21 missile launchers had moved into South Ossetia, within range of Tbilisi. Nogovitsyn disputed the claim.
The RIA-Novosti news agency reported that the leader of South Ossetia, Eduard Kokoity, asked Russia on Monday to establish a permanent base there.
Nogovitsyn said the Russian troops were pulling back to South Ossetia, but the boundaries of the Russian presence remained unclear. He said "troops should not be in the territory of Georgia," but it was unclear whether that excluded patrols.
Russian troops were restricting access to Gori, where shops were shut and people milled around on the central square.
"The city is a cold place now. People are fearful," said Nona Khizanishvili, 44, who fled Gori a week ago for an outlying village and returned Monday, trying to reach her son in Tbilisi.
Georgia's Rustavi-2 television showed footage of a Russian armored vehicle smashing through a group of Georgian police cars barricading the road to Gori on Monday. One of the cars was dragged along the street by the Russian armor. Georgian police stood by without even raising their guns as the Russian vehicle crushed through the roadblock.
In Senaki, a series of explosions were heard from the military base in the afternoon. Later, three separate blasts that appeared to destroy the airport runway shook the leaves on trees more than a mile away.
Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said Russian forces had blown up the runway. There was no confirmation from Russian military officials.
Earlier, Russian troops had allowed displaced people to get to the base to retrieve their belongings. Cars emerged loaded with goods, including televisions and refrigerators.
A planned exchange of prisoners captured during the fighting fell through, with each sides blaming the other. It was not clear how many prisoners were to be exchanged. Georgian officials another attempt could take place Tuesday.
In Vladikavkaz, near the border with Georgia, Medvedev gave medals to 30 soldiers and servicemen involved in the conflict. He called them heroes and said they had fought "a cowardly aggression.
"I am sure that such a well conducted, effective peacemaking operation aimed at protecting our citizens and other people will be among the most glorious deeds of the Russian military," Medvedev said.
While Western leaders have called Russia's response disproportionate, Medvedev repeated Russian accusations of genocide.
"The world realized that even now there are political freaks who were ready to kill innocent people for the sake of political fashions and who compensated for their own stupidity by eliminating a whole nation," he said.
An Associated Press cameraman was slightly injured outside Gori after four men in camouflage, possibly from an Ossetian militia, pulled up in a car and told him to stop filming.
When the cameraman resisted, the driver produced a pistol and started shooting at the ground. The cameraman, who sustained light ricochet wounds to his legs, handed over the cassette.
The Pentagon said that up to five C-130 aircraft are expected to fly into Georgia Tuesday with supplies, and that three had landed Monday as part of the relief effort. In addition to food, medical aid, tents and bedding, the U.S. is sending forklifts to help unload and move the supplies.
The United Nations refugee agency said more than 158,000 people had been displaced by the conflict, most of them within Georgia.
"I think the Russians will pull out, but will damage Georgia strongly," said Givi Sikharulidze, who lives in Tbilisi. "Georgia will survive, but Russia has lost its credibility in the eyes of the world."
Close Window Russian soldiers take prisoners in Georgia port Tuesday, August 19, 2008 POTI, Georgia - Russian soldiers took about 20 Georgian troops prisoner at a key Black Sea port in western Georgia on Tuesday, blindfolding them and holding them at gunpoint, and commandeered American Humvees awaiting shipment back to the United States.
The move came as a small column of Russian tanks and armored vehicles left the strategic Georgian city of Gori in the first sign of a Russian pullback of troops from Georgia after a cease-fire intended to end fighting that reignited Cold War tensions. The two countries on Tuesday also exchanged prisoners captured during their brief war.
However, Russian soldiers took Georgian servicemen prisoner in Poti and commandeered the U.S. Humvees. An Associated Press photographer saw Russian trucks and armored personnel carriers leaving the port with about 20 blindfolded and handcuffed men riding on them.
Port spokesman Eduard Mashevoriani said the men were Georgian soldiers.
Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said officials were looking into the reported theft of the Humvees.
The deputy head of Russia's general staff, Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, said Russian forces plan to remain in Poti until a local administration is formed, but did not give further details. He also justified previous seizures of Georgian soldiers as necessary to crack down on soldiers who were "out of any kind of control ... acting without command."
An AP television crew has seen Russian troops in and around Poti all week, with local port officials saying the Russians had destroyed radar, boats and other Coast Guard equipment there.
Russian troops last week drove Georgian forces out of South Ossetia, where Georgia on Aug. 7 launched a heavy artillery barrage in the separatist Georgian province with close ties to Russia. Fighting also has flared in a second Russian-backed separatist region, Abkhazia.
The short war has driven tensions between Russia and the West to some of their highest levels since the breakup of the Soviet Union, but Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has icily defended Russia's actions.
"Anyone who tries anything like that will face a crushing response," he said Monday. Later Medvedev handed out military medals to Russian soldiers involved in the fighting.
The cease-fire requires both sides to return to positions held before the fighting began, but Whitman said Tuesday morning in Washington that it didn't appear Russia had made any significant withdrawal of forces.
"So far we have not seen any significant movement out of Georgia," he said.
A small column of Russian tanks and armored vehicles left Gori on Tuesday, and a Russian officer said they were heading back to South Ossetia and then Russia. Col. Igor Konoshenkov, a Russian military officer at the scene, gave no timetable for when the unit would reach Russia.
Also Tuesday, Russia and Georgia exchanged 20 prisoners of war in an effort to reduce tensions. Two Russian military helicopters landed in the village of Igoeti, the closest that Russian forces have advanced to the Georgian capital of Tbilisi. Soldiers and men in unmarked clothing got off and two people in stretchers were taken to Georgian officials.
Georgian ambulances later brought two other people to the Russian choppers. One was on a gurney.
Georgian Security Council head Alexander Lomaia told reporters in Igoeti that 15 Georgians and five Russians were exchanged. "It went smoothly," he said. The operation also witnessed by Russian Maj. Gen. Vyacheslav Borisov, who commands troops in the area.
Lomaia said the exchange removed any pretext for Russians to keep holding positions in Igoeti, 30 miles west of Tbilisi, or anywhere else on Georgia's only significant east-west highway.
In Brussels, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was backing the setting up of a permanent NATO-Georgia Commission to solidify ties between the Western alliance and Georgia. Diplomats said Washington also supports increasing training for the Georgian military.
At the same time, NATO foreign ministers were discussing possibly scaling back high-level meetings and military cooperation with Russia if it does not abandon crucial positions across Georgia. But there were differences within the alliance over how far to go in punishing Moscow.
At a separate meeting, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe said Russia agreed to allow 20 more international military monitors in and around South Ossetia.
Finnish Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb says the plan calls for the observers to be sent immediately to Tbilisi. The group already has nine observers based in South Ossetia.
The United Nations has estimated that the fighting displaced more than 158,000 people. U.N. refugee chief Antonio Guterres arrived in Tbilisi on Tuesday to meet with government representatives to discuss the plight of tens of thousands of South Ossetians uprooted by Georgia's conflict with Russia.
Guterres then will travel to Moscow to meet with Russian officials, U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees spokesman Andrej Mahecic said.
Mahecic told journalists in Geneva that UNHCR, like other aid agencies, has not been able to reach the civilian population in much of South Ossetia because of security issues there. The area is now controlled by Russia.
"We have seen media reports indicating that people are being shot at while trying to leave the area," he said.
In Gori, most shops were shut and people milled around on the central square with its statue of the Soviet dictator and native son Josef Stalin.
"The city is a cold place now. People are fearful," said Nona Khizanishvili, 44, who fled Gori a week ago for an outlying village and returned Monday, trying to reach her son in Tbilisi.
---
Associated Press writers David Nowak, Jim Heintz and Steve Gutterman in Moscow, and Christopher Torchia in Igoeti, Georgia, contributed to this report.
You know what....we told NATO and everyones else to screw themselves....OWNED Afganastan then Iraq....why they singling out Russia??? I think Russia should launch a nuke on the meeting and make that their answer to the "Be my little ***** game". I'm sick of how the USA wants to make a fit over everything the world does. Worry about the crap here. Is Bush really trying his best to make a REAL Reccession?
BUSH = 1930s!!!
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by R1 Man: You know what....we told NATO and everyones else to screw themselves....OWNED Afganastan then Iraq....why they singling out Russia???
No one is singling out Russia, they do that themselves. It is one thing for Russia to defend Ossentia and the other breakaway province. It is a totally different picture for them to use that as a excuse to invade Georgia.
We make agreements with allies and if we do not keep our word with those allies then what is the point of them (agreements) & they ever helping us when we need the help. That includes economically via trading products which would help our recession now and in the future.
The other point is that Russia does not respect their neighbors at all. Putin/Russia without a doubt wants their former provinces and satellites from the USSR days back and will use any excuse to invade them one by one such as Georgia attacking Ossentia, Ukraine/Georgia possibly joining NATO, Poland putting U.S. made defense missiles in their country etc.
Why do we single out Russia? Let's see:
1. They helped put a plan in place to poison the current Ukraine President when he first ran for the Presidency.
2. They are occupying Ukraine territory in Crimea with their military waiting for the excuse of the Ukraine to join NATO so they can then invade the Ukraine.
3. They murdered a Russian Ex-KGB agent in London with radioactive material & have targeted others.
4. They are threatening to nuke Poland if the defense missiles are put in place. Not attack them regularly nor impose economic sanctions but NUKE them starting in effect WW3 if that happens.Not even the U.S. threatens to nuke anyone nowadays.
Should I or other board members continue with more examples? I guess you have not thought out the consequences of Russia's actions in that region. Today Georgia, tomorrow Poland, then the Ukraine and on and on. They need to respect their neighbors and leave them to decide their own destinies. And not intimidate and threaten and attack. The USSR is gone and they just want to be left alone by Putin/Moscow. No one is out to attack or invade Russia with defense missiles or radars being put in Poland, Czech or other countries. They are strictly for Defensive purposes. If Russia does not intend to invade these countries then they have nothing to fear from such missiles/radars.
Putin is just a megolmaniac who wants Russia's former empire back.
Posted by R1 Man on :
Ok, first off the USA has troops in Germany, France, Turkey, Iraq, Korea, several African countries, Cuba and many more. So Russia puts troops in another country....so what. Can't have a double standard. Hmmmm.....what happened when we Russia put missles in Cuba??? The Cuban Missle Crisis. I think if we put missles in Poland which is next to Russia....then they have a right to attack.
Think....if a person walks up to a police station with a loaded gun with 10 shots. There are 100 Police officers. Should they assume the guy can only fire 10 shots and maybe he is only protecting himself? Hell no....They gonna shoot his butt.
Needless to say....let Russia do what they want. They are 30 miles away from Alaska or how ever far it is. They could drop bombs on us fairly easy. I just wish the USA would worry about USA and our problems at home.
BTW....we murder our troops also with these phoney wars. Send them to slaughter for what??? Nothing. I strongly believe that the President, Congress should be FORCED to make their children serve in ACTIVE Duty on the FRONT LINE. Then lets see how many wars we start.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by R1 Man: Ok, first off the USA has troops in Germany, France, Turkey, Iraq, Korea, several African countries, Cuba and many more. So Russia puts troops in another country....so what. Can't have a double standard.
With the exception of Cuba and Iraq, our troops are there by invitation after what happened with WW1 and WW2. We are not in those countries by force.
quote:Hmmmm.....what happened when we Russia put missles in Cuba??? The Cuban Missle Crisis. I think if we put missles in Poland which is next to Russia....then they have a right to attack.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the missiles being put in Poland are non-nuclear. There is a whole difference between the two situations. Russia is basically saying that any neighbor of theirs is not allowed to defend themselves or have a strong military. Do we do that to Mexico or Canada? I think not. And Russia has no right to attack if not being attacked themselves.
quote:Think....if a person walks up to a police station with a loaded gun with 10 shots. There are 100 Police officers. Should they assume the guy can only fire 10 shots and maybe he is only protecting himself? Hell no....They gonna shoot his butt.
Poland is not walking into Russia. They are staying within their own territory and doing what is rightful to any country. To have a stronger military and defense weapons to defend against an invasion which is exactly what Russia is threatening to do. Do you see the irony? If Russia is no threat to anyone around them and do not intend to ever invade anyone then they have nothing to fear from their neighbors who do not intend to do that to Russia. Is Russia that paranoid or that stupid?
quote:Needless to say....let Russia do what they want. They are 30 miles away from Alaska or how ever far it is. They could drop bombs on us fairly easy. I just wish the USA would worry about USA and our problems at home.
You don't think too much about this issue do you. We once let a country do what they wanted. That country was called Nazi Germany in the 1930's. Isolationism is definetly not the answer because eventually it will reach our shores like it did in Pearl Harbor. They can drop bombs on us and we can on them fairly easily. That is called a stalemate or checks/balances. Georgia, Poland, Ukraine etc. do not have such a luxury so they depend on countries like us and in Europe to keep the balance. When one country has the only one sided balance in a region the surrounding countries fall one by one and eventually can reach our shores. Do you not understand that? The USA is worrying about the USA for the same reasons I just explained and for economic reasons as well. We are not a domestic economy only.
quote:BTW....we murder our troops also with these phoney wars.
Some are phony and some are not.But when they join the military they know exactly what they are getting into. They can't claim ignorance when a world crisis that involves us occurs.
quote: Send them to slaughter for what??? Nothing.
Certain conflicts have good reasons like Afghanistan and others do not like Iraq.
quote: I strongly believe that the President, Congress should be FORCED to make their children serve in ACTIVE Duty on the FRONT LINE. Then lets see how many wars we start.
I do agree they should send their sons and daughters but not because I think it will change their minds about such things but because of the hyprocrisy of only sending the poor to such things and not the elite rich.
Posted by glassman on :
has anybody actually been able to find what missile system we are putting in Poland?
the missiles have an 1800 mile range is about all i can find...
we call it missile defense, but 10 missiles is not a viable defense system, and is nothing like a "shield".
everybody overlooks the guidance systems behind the bombs.... the Russians are not being irrational... these systems will probably be much more able to look into Russia and track their air forces...
next question is what are we giving Poland in return for this?
remember back before 9-11 happened? Bush was already working on this plan then...
the missiles are ostensibly to defend against attacks from Iran but Iran has not got anywhere near the capability to make these necessary right now, and won't ever have it if the Russians stop helping them...
Russia's next logical move will be to restrict Nat Gas flow to countries that "displease" it... how long will Bush's policies hold in the face of that?
Russia supplies Western Europe with 80% of it's Nat Gas...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: we call it missile defense, but 10 missiles is not a viable defense system, and is nothing like a "shield".
I am sure with 10 missiles they will be able to replicate them on their own... and produce more...
quote:everybody overlooks the guidance systems behind the bombs.... the Russians are not being irrational... these systems will probably be much more able to look into Russia and track their air forces...
they are being irrational because these systems are not being used for offense but defensively... Russia can use such systems for both offense and defense but not their neighbors? That is the irrationality... Poland is not a hostile country while Russia is...
quote:next question is what are we giving Poland in return for this?
Do you mean what are they giving us no?
quote:remember back before 9-11 happened? Bush was already working on this plan then...
I don't remember that...
quote:the missiles are ostensibly to defend against attacks from Iran but Iran has not got anywhere near the capability to make these necessary right now, and won't ever have it if the Russians stop helping them...
let's not kid ourselves.. we know this isn't about Iran...
quote:Russia's next logical move will be to restrict Nat Gas flow to countries that "displease" it... how long will Bush's policies hold in the face of that?
Russia supplies Western Europe with 80% of it's Nat Gas...
I rather Russia be more civilized and use economic warfare instead of military warfare.. but what they do not get is what is used against us economically we can do the same to them...
Posted by glassman on :
this was what Bush was working on before 9-11 instead of "swatting flies": Bush missile plan sparks Europe fears
May 2, 2001 Web posted at: 7:33 AM EST (1233 GMT)
By Robin Oakley, CNN.com European Political Editor
LONDON, England (CNN) -- George W. Bush’s announcement that he will push ahead with his National Missile Defence programme, dubbed “Son of Star Wars” in Europe, has met with mixed reactions and is likely to increase disengagement between Europe and the US. Bush’s move came as no surprise , having been well-trailed in his election campaign. Allies like Britain have long acknowledged that the world cannot expect American leaders to fail to make use of increased protection against “rogue states” if the missile shield technology can be made to work.
they are being irrational because these systems are not being used for offense but defensively... Russia can use such systems for both offense and defense but not their neighbors? That is the irrationality... Poland is not a hostile country while Russia is...
forget the missiles for a minute. forget ideaologies too. in order to win at war? one must actually wage it first. Bush is in fact initiating this confrontation.
giving US an other eye into Russia is offensive.
I don't like Putin, i'm not a Russkie supporter, i'm just looking at the "game" without emotional attachments here...
i'm not even sure if it's a "good thing" or a "bad thing" for US to do...
what i DO KNOW is that Europe is who will suffer in this "game" and we are most definitely "serving" in this game..
even the lowly rat will fight it's way out of a corner if it has to...
Posted by glassman on :
quote: next question is what are we giving Poland in return for this? Do you mean what are they giving us no?
there's no way in hell we'll allow them to reverse engineer this technology..
they'll still get hit with only 10 missiles..
they are giving US alot... this defense sheild is not geared to protect Europe as much as it US...
you have to look at this from both sides...
you are assuming we are "the good guys" and they are "the bad guys"...
forget that stuff, it's for movies and novels...
if Russia beleives that we could "preemptively" strike them and actually succeed without taking more than couple of hits? they will do what they (in their opinion) have to, and can, to stop this before we have that capability.
it doesn't matter who the good guys are or the bad guys are in that scenario...
Posted by Relentless. on :
This whole thing just seems too stupid to be real. All that BS about winning the cold war.. and our friends the Russians... Why the hell would we give up a realistic chance at peace with the Russians? And who on this wretched ball of iron believes a missile shield that surrounds ONLY RUSSIA is aimed at protecting us from two or three oil rich middle east "Terrorist" nations?... NOT A ONE OF WHICH CAN REACH THIS NATION WITH ANYTHING BUT AN AIRLINE TICKET. I swear I know how stupid people are.. then BAMM they go and surprise me.
Posted by glassman on :
what i cannot get over is how many people think Russia invaded and Georgia is the "victim" ...
on Aug 7th? the headlines, while not big, were clear. Georgia attacked South Ossietta...
THURSDAY 7 AUGUST
Georgian forces and separatists in South Ossetia agree to observe a ceasefire and hold Russian-mediated talks to end their long-simmering conflict.
Hours later, Georgian forces launch a surprise attack, sending a large force against the breakaway province and reaching the capital Tskhinvali.
South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity accuses Georgia of a "perfidious and base step".
The head of Georgian forces in South Ossetia says the operation is intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region, while the government says the troops are "neutralising separatist fighters attacking civilians".
Russia's special envoy in South Ossetia, Yuri Popov, says Georgia's military operation shows that it cannot be trusted and he calls on Nato to reconsider plans to offer it membership.
as far as i'm concerned? there's a lot of propaganda being delivered by both side in this.
Posted by glassman on :
Georgia is nothing but a political toy for Putin and the Neo-cons. They have nothing of value to US but a close proximity to Russia:
Georgia's economy has sustained robust GDP growth of close to 10% in 2006 and 12% in 2007, based on strong inflows of foreign investment and robust government spending. However, a widening trade deficit and higher inflation are emerging risks to the economy. Areas of recent improvement include increasing foreign direct investment as well as growth in the construction, banking services and mining sectors. Georgia's main economic activities include the cultivation of agricultural products such as grapes, citrus fruits, and hazelnuts; mining of manganese and copper; and output of a small industrial sector producing alcoholic and nonalcoholic beverages, metals, machinery, aircraft and chemicals. The country imports nearly all its needed supplies of natural gas and oil products. It has sizeable hydropower capacity, a growing component of its energy supplies. Despite the severe damage the economy suffered due to civil strife in the 1990s, Georgia, with the help of the IMF and World Bank, has made substantial economic gains since 2000, achieving positive GDP growth and curtailing inflation. Georgia's GDP growth neared 10% in 2006 and 2007 despite restrictions on commerce with Russia.
This whole thing is just amazing. Honestly this whole thing is heartbreaking. This nation of "The Free" is not just acting like... But IS making a real attempt at taking over the world... all while confining.. if not imprisoning it's own citizens. Citizens who were once ballsy to say the least are now inept parrots for the very government that robs and tortures them. This is just disgusting... and it's about to get worse I fear.
Posted by Relentless. on :
How can the Russians back down at this point? How can we back out at this point? I'm not sure I can see how either can. And... I'm not entirely sure I want them to... I'm so ****ing tired of this idiocy that flushing it away so that a few may survive... just might be worth it.
Posted by glassman on :
careful with that axe, eugene...
this is the key right here IMO:
Randy Scheunemann
# John McCain 2008 Presidential Campaign: Senior Foreign Policy Advisor # Project for the New American Century: Former Director # Committee for the Liberation of Iraq: Former Head
A well-connected lobbyist and political insider who serves as an advisor to Sen. John McCain’s (R-AZ) presidential campaign, Randy Scheunemann is the founder and president of the public relations firm Orion Strategies 1 and was an active supporter of advocacy groups aimed at building support for the invasion of Iraq. His firms have represented various military contractor and oil interests. Along with neoconservative figures like Robert Kagan and William Kristol, Scheunemann served as a director of the now-defunct Project for the New American Century (PNAC), a letterhead group that played an important role in building support for the Iraq War and an expansive “war on terror.” 2 He also headed the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq (CLI), a post-9/11 advocacy outfit that pushed for war in Iraq. Like PNAC, CLI played a key role forging a coalition of Beltway figures who supported a Middle East agenda that had at its core toppling Saddam Hussein. 3 CLI members included McCain and Sen. Joe Lieberman “Over the past several years, Mr. Scheunemann met several times with Mr. McCain to discuss his clients’ interests. He introduced the senator to the foreign ministers of Albania, Croatia, and Macedonia as they tried to win admission to NATO, and a representative of Taiwan as it lobbied for free trade, records show. Mr. Scheunemann also accompanied Mr. McCain to Latvia in 2001 and Georgia in 2006,” the Times reported. 6 In March 2008, Scheunemann ended his registrations with several countries, according to the Times. http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1347.html Posted by Relentless. on :
Oh I think this is the other half of that key right here:
quote:The man who many are tipping to become Barack Obama’s running mate is a pro-war, pro-patriot act, Bilderberg member who was an honorary co-chair of the neocon Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, a group that aggressively propagandized for the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Ladies and gentlemen - meet Senator Evan Bayh.
“Top Democratic Party officials are expecting Sen. Barack Obama to select Indiana Sen. Evan Bayh as his running mate as early as midweek,” according to US News and World Report.
So exactly where do the sympathies of the Indiana Senator lie and do they jive with Barack Obama’s proclaimed platitude to be offering “change” in the upcoming presidential election?
The deck is being stacked right before our eyes... And it's being stacked for War.
Posted by BooDog on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: Oh I think this is the other half of that key right here:
quote:The man who many are tipping to become Barack Obama’s running mate is a pro-war, pro-patriot act, Bilderberg member who was an honorary co-chair of the neocon Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, a group that aggressively propagandized for the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Ladies and gentlemen - meet Senator Evan Bayh.
“Top Democratic Party officials are expecting Sen. Barack Obama to select Indiana Sen. Evan Bayh as his running mate as early as midweek,” according to US News and World Report.
So exactly where do the sympathies of the Indiana Senator lie and do they jive with Barack Obama’s proclaimed platitude to be offering “change” in the upcoming presidential election?
The deck is being stacked right before our eyes... And it's being stacked for War.
Cheney had no influence with Bush. Or did he?
Do we qualify a President by the selection of the VP?
I certainly hope not.
Posted by Relentless. on :
We sure as hell should qualify a president on all of his/her selections. That includes his/her running mate. Not to mention that the reason for bringing it up had nothing to do with that, but to show quite clearly that he is not in charge of his own presidency. The powers that be want war... they want it now and it sure looks they are about to get it.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: forget the missiles for a minute. forget ideaologies too. in order to win at war? one must actually wage it first. Bush is in fact initiating this confrontation.
giving US an other eye into Russia is offensive.
I don't like Putin, i'm not a Russkie supporter, i'm just looking at the "game" without emotional attachments here...
i'm not even sure if it's a "good thing" or a "bad thing" for US to do...
what i DO KNOW is that Europe is who will suffer in this "game" and we are most definitely "serving" in this game..
even the lowly rat will fight it's way out of a corner if it has to...
Russia is looking for a confrontation where there is none... basically Russia wants to have the only military or strong military in the Eastern European region is what it boils down to... Weaker nations like Poland, Georgia, Ukraine etc. have the right to build up their military and be strong against unwanted agression from their neighbors...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: there's no way in hell we'll allow them to reverse engineer this technology..
Very easy to reverse engineer something in secret and then modify it and voila they do not need us anymore...
quote:you are assuming we are "the good guys" and they are "the bad guys"...
forget that stuff, it's for movies and novels...
That is the problem.. the good/bad guy mentality on both sides... and also the Russian mentality that their former satellites still belong to them... they need to learn to "let go" of those satellites forever and perhaps even join NATO like they joined the UN... then perhaps they will not see every NATO member as a enemy out to destroy them... but Putin still has that KGB mentality...
Posted by glassman on :
Weaker nations like Poland, Georgia, Ukraine etc. have the right to build up their military and be strong against unwanted agression from their neighbors...
LOL... we are building THEIR military...
if Mexico or Canada or any other country in this hemisphere agreed to set up Russian missile sites/ we'd have something to say about it too...
as for Georgia and Russia? where do you stand on Kosovo?
the Ossentians want to be Russian? do they have say-so or not?
some commentators have said that the US should have understood when Kosovo declared independence six months ago that the issue of forming an international precedent is not as simple as declaring it as such or not.
"[The US] tried very hard and assertively to support Kosovo's independence, but [to not make it] a precedent," Saunders said. "What the administration doesn't understand is that what's a precedent is in the eyes of the beholder."
South Ossetia and Abkhazia, lacking independence, do not have internationally recognized de jure governments. However, both regions do have de facto independently operating governments with leaders.
Moreover, with the US constantly citing Georgia's status as a democracy as a strong reason to back it, many are left curious by the absence of talk of a 2006 referendum in South Ossetia when residents unanimously voted for independence. Whether the leaders of the breakaway region were democratically elected by international standards or not, their leaders certainly and legitimately represent this view. Posted by Relentless. on :
Dunno... seems we saw Cuba as an enemy pretty quickly. It's more than somewhat difficult to take any argument seriously if it doesn't understand we acted the same way when the shoe was on the other foot. Not only that, but it is the US pressing the world to submit... Russia has been silent these last couple decades... Silently watching us conquer... Now we are going to install a shield that supposedly is a defense from the Middle East??? In FRIGGEN POLAND???? My map says that's pretty damned stupid. The Russians have every right to be pissed and I expect them to act no less so than we did when they employed Cuba's position to better their advantage.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: what i cannot get over is how many people think Russia invaded and Georgia is the "victim" ...
on Aug 7th? the headlines, while not big, were clear. Georgia attacked South Ossietta...
No one is disputing that Georgia attacked Ossetia... that was wrong but Ossetia's militia is backed by and takes orders from Russia and were told to provoke Georgia in order for Russia to have it's excuse for "keeping the peace" by entering Georgia... Georgia is a victim because they were duped into attacking Ossetia for Putin's military plans to take over Georgia... Russia didn't just out of the blue attack Georgia without any plans.. they were prepared months in advance for this... yes Georgia attacked Ossetia... but Russia only had to take Ossetia back... there was no reason to continue into Georgia... except to claim it once again as it's own... I suggest you read the article below Glass... You'll probably call it propaganda but to me it makes sense and this coming from a Right wing paper (NY Post), please read the whole article.. it's about 2 pages:
Very easy to reverse engineer something in secret and then modify it and voila they do not need us anymore...
i'm sorry, but this is not a valid response... these missiles represent the very highest level of our most recent technology. NOBODY will be going anywhere near them W/O a TS clearance...
we have only tested a couple of these missiles ourselves...
Posted by glassman on :
Ossetia's militia is backed by and takes orders from Russia and were told to provoke Georgia in order for Russia to have it's excuse for "keeping the peace" by entering Georgia
what's your source for this?
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Georgia is nothing but a political toy for Putin and the Neo-cons. They have nothing of value to US but a close proximity to Russia:
We have been pushing to run a Natural gas pipeline from the Caspian Basin through Georgia to bypass Russia and loosen their grip in supplying Europe etc.. So yes Georgia has/had value to us:
i read that article several day ago Mach, you been borged... resistance is futile..
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Ossetia's militia is backed by and takes orders from Russia and were told to provoke Georgia in order for Russia to have it's excuse for "keeping the peace" by entering Georgia
what's your source for this?
Told you to read the article... I posted 2 times in this thread... scroll up a couple of posts... Plus it makes sense that Ossetia's milita took their orders from Moscow much like Poland, East Germany, Yugoslavia etc. took their orders back in the day from Moscow when they were communists... Ossetia is majority Russian... why wouldn't they take their orders from Moscow? ...
Posted by Relentless. on :
quote:Calculating that the media and world leaders would be partying in Beijing, the Russians ordered North Ossetian militiamen, backed by Russian "peacekeepers" and mercenaries, to provoke the Georgians earlier this month.
Come on Mach.. this is about the dumbest thing I've heard in an hour... and yes it's been a race.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.:
quote:Calculating that the media and world leaders would be partying in Beijing, the Russians ordered North Ossetian militiamen, backed by Russian "peacekeepers" and mercenaries, to provoke the Georgians earlier this month.
Come on Mach.. this is about the dumbest thing I've heard in an hour... and yes it's been a race.
Care to prove it is not true... Ossetia does need money and arms for their militia etc... and Russia along with the U.S. are the biggest arms dealers and suppliers in the world... let's just say Ossetia does not see the U.S. as it's friend nor their weapons supplier... connect the dots...
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Georgia is nothing but a political toy for Putin and the Neo-cons. They have nothing of value to US but a close proximity to Russia:
We have been pushing to run a Natural gas pipeline from the Caspian Basin through Georgia to bypass Russia and loosen their grip in supplying Europe etc.. So yes Georgia has/had value to us:
Was it ever possible for a non-Russian natural gas pipeline route from the Caspian basin to supply enough gas to free Europe from Russia's grip? Not likely given E
look at a map and see how Georgia is mosly landlocked by Rusia....
Posted by Relentless. on :
I don't think I have to prove how idiotic that quote is.. just reading it is enough. No one in this day and age thinks anyone can invade anywhere ... even during the Olympics.. and have it go unnoticed.. That whole article just stinks of rank bias and just smugness.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Ossetia's militia is backed by and takes orders from Russia and were told to provoke Georgia in order for Russia to have it's excuse for "keeping the peace" by entering Georgia
what's your source for this?
Told you to read the article... I posted 2 times in this thread... scroll up a couple of posts... Plus it makes sense that Ossetia's milita took their orders from Moscow much like Poland, East Germany, Yugoslavia etc. took their orders back in the day from Moscow when they were communists... Ossetia is majority Russian... why wouldn't they take their orders from Moscow? ...
since Ossetia is mostly Russian then why are we backing Georgia's claim to them? they don't wan to be Georgian... yet we backed Kosovo's separation..
like i said, something here stinks, and it smells like neo-cons Mach.. and the neo-cons worked the Press (very effectively) to get the Iraq war too...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
LOL... we are building THEIR military
I wouldn't say were building it.... but training it yes...
quote:if Mexico or Canada or any other country in this hemisphere agreed to set up Russian missile sites/ we'd have something to say about it too...
Right now AK's but watch over time what else will creep it's way into Chavez land from Russia & were not doing anything about it but your defending Russia's right to do something about Poland etc.
quote:as for Georgia and Russia? where do you stand on Kosovo?
I believe in Kosovo breakaway as I believe in Ossetia's breakaway... it's the Russians that are being hyprocrites... they don't believe in Kosovo's breakaway but do believe in Ossetia's... go figure...
quote:the Ossentians want to be Russian? do they have say-so or not?
I already said they do have a say so imo... in no way have I seen Bush or any American saying Ossetia does not have the right to breakaway... the issue is Georgia being invaded and not Ossetia's right to breakaway for us...
Posted by Relentless. on :
Bush has said exactly that! He said Georgia's borders must be kept.. bla bla sovereignty and all that.
Posted by glassman on :
I already said they do have a say so imo... in no way have I seen Bush or any American saying Ossetia does not have the right to breakaway... the issue is Georgia being invaded and not Ossetia's right to breakaway for us...
you didn't look then, he's been saying it since this stuff started..
furthermore? Georgia and Ossentia agreed to Russia brokering a peace settelment right before Georgi started this recent set of battle...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: look at a map and see how Georgia is mosly landlocked by Rusia....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Georgian_Pipelines.gif
Posted by glassman on :
Right now AK's but watch over time what else will creep it's way into Chavez land from Russia & were not doing anything about it but your defending Russia's right to do something about Poland etc.
LOL... AK's V ballistic missile interceptors? that's laughable.
when it get's worse? we'll put a stop to it and fast, just like Russia is trying to do now...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
you didn't look then, he's been saying it since this stuff started..
furthermore? Georgia and Ossentia agreed to Russia brokering a peace settelment right before Georgi started this recent set of battle...
I haven't seen him say that Ossetia should belong to Georgia.. not once... I'm not saying he didn't say it but i am saying I didn't see him say it in any media outlet... guess I missed that but feel free to show me his words...
As for the Georgia/Ossetia/Russian brokering deal before the conflict... Haven't heard that neither and for some reason I do not think that Georgia would agree to Russia brokering such an agreement since they don't trust the Russkies... if anything they probably would agree to a neutral country doing it or the UN...
Posted by glassman on :
Bush says South Ossetia, Abkhazia belong to Georgia Xinhua, China - 6 hours ago 20 (Xinhua) -- US President George W. Bush said on Wednesday that the breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia belong to Georgia, pledging to ensure ... Bush Warnes Russia: Breakaway South Ossetia, Abkhazia Are Part of ... Voice of America Bush Calls Georgia ‘Under Siege’ New York Times Bush says breakaway provinces are part of Georgia The Associated Press The Canadian Press - ABC Online all 1,264 news articles »
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: LOL... AK's V ballistic missile interceptors? that's laughable.
when it get's worse? we'll put a stop to it and fast, just like Russia is trying to do now...
I didn't say what Chavez has now is a threat I just said that watch will happen over time... Russia is not only courting Venezuela but also is in talks with Cuba again... and don't be surprised if they will do same with Bolivia, Ecuador and Nicaragua with Daniel Ortega in power...
Posted by glassman on :
Haven't heard that neither and for some reason I do not think that Georgia would agree to Russia brokering such an agreement since they don't trust the Russkies...
run a date specific news search for Russia, Georgia and Aug 7 that's the day before Russia invaded...
i already posted BBC link here earlier...
BTW? i am not 'defending" Russia inany way. what i am trying to tell you is that "the tail is trying to wag the dog" AGAIN!
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Bush says South Ossetia, Abkhazia belong to Georgia Xinhua, China - 6 hours ago 20 (Xinhua) -- US President George W. Bush said on Wednesday that the breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia belong to Georgia, pledging to ensure ... Bush Warnes Russia: Breakaway South Ossetia, Abkhazia Are Part of ... Voice of America Bush Calls Georgia ‘Under Siege’ New York Times Bush says breakaway provinces are part of Georgia The Associated Press The Canadian Press - ABC Online all 1,264 news articles »
One article from one unbiased media outlet...
Posted by Relentless. on :
US President George W Bush reiterated on Wednesday that South Ossetia and another breakaway region, Abkhazia, remained part of Georgia http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7573585.stm Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Bush says South Ossetia, Abkhazia belong to Georgia Xinhua, China - 6 hours ago 20 (Xinhua) -- US President George W. Bush said on Wednesday that the breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia belong to Georgia, pledging to ensure ... Bush Warnes Russia: Breakaway South Ossetia, Abkhazia Are Part of ... Voice of America Bush Calls Georgia ‘Under Siege’ New York Times Bush says breakaway provinces are part of Georgia The Associated Press The Canadian Press - ABC Online all 1,264 news articles »
One article from one unbiased media outlet...
there's no such thing as an ubiased media outlet...
VOA is the US govt tho..
i heard him say it on TV several times...
Posted by Relentless. on :
Next you'll ask for two... Ok ok.. just one article written by an unbiased plutonian who frequents Jupiter on only wednessdays. Just one.. then I'll believe.
Posted by Relentless. on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: US President George W Bush reiterated on Wednesday that South Ossetia and another breakaway region, Abkhazia, remained part of Georgia http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7573585.stm
"the Moscow-backed separatist region of South Ossetia, triggering a counter-offensive by Russian troops who advanced beyond South Ossetia into Georgia's heartland."
"Georgia says its action was in response to continuous provocation."
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: Next you'll ask for two... Ok ok.. just one article written by an unbiased plutonian who frequents Jupiter on only wednessdays. Just one.. then I'll believe.
You really should read my posts more carefully... I never said I didn't believe Bush said such a thing... I said I never seen him say it and that it wasn't to say he didn't say it... now that you and Glass showed me and made your point... go have a double scotch on the rocks and cool down... your starting to resemble PMS...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: hear Bush is on TV saying it:
Yes, hearing Bush more then 10 seconds is torture... but anyways again I never said he didn't say it just that i never saw him myself say it... till now... regardless of what he is saying my stance is still that Ossetia has the right to breakaway as did Kosovo... but that Moscow did manipulate Georgia into attacking in order to have a excuse to get involved militarily and go into Georgia to flex it's muscles... much like they occupy Crimea region in the Ukraine for intimidation purposes waiting for the Ukraine to agree to join NATO...
Posted by Relentless. on :
Who is manipulating who? The US planting weapon systems and training armies in any bordering state isn't manipulating?
Posted by Relentless. on :
I should clarify a bit in that I'm not necessarily taking Russia's side in this... I'm not claiming they are without guilt... But I am saying at this point.. the US is the bigger instigator.
Posted by glassman on :
and if Mexico tried to make a new "Warsaw Pact" with Putin? we'd be in Mexico City in 24 hours...
i'm not excusing Russia, what i'm doing is pointing out that the Russkie response is simply predictable, the chess game is not playing out any differently than anybody should expect, except the East Europeans who might have thought we could actually go and help them stop the Russkies from attacking with a few dozen F22's; we can't... ...
Posted by Relentless. on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: Next you'll ask for two... Ok ok.. just one article written by an unbiased plutonian who frequents Jupiter on only wednessdays. Just one.. then I'll believe.
You really should read my posts more carefully... I never said I didn't believe Bush said such a thing... I said I never seen him say it and that it wasn't to say he didn't say it... now that you and Glass showed me and made your point... go have a double scotch on the rocks and cool down... your starting to resemble PMS...
Mach, just cause you're not doing so hot on this one is no reason for calling me a knuckle dragging mouth breathing government parrot... Just low Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: Who is manipulating who? The US planting weapon systems and training armies in any bordering state isn't manipulating?
That's not behind the scenes manipulation.... that is direct and publicly participation...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: I should clarify a bit in that I'm not necessarily taking Russia's side in this... I'm not claiming they are without guilt... But I am saying at this point.. the US is the bigger instigator.
you not taking Russia's side could of fooled me... as for the US being the bigger instigator... sorry don't see it... it's Russia's flexing it's muscles in that region and i don't mean just now but in the past few years starting with it's occupation of Crimea as well as it's assassination attempt of the Ukraine's Presidentional candidate (and now current President)...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: and if Mexico tried to make a new "Warsaw Pact" with Putin? we'd be in Mexico City in 24 hours...
I doubt it... if anything under Bush were chickens to take on Superpowers and near superpowers... we'll attack weak nations like Iraq but not obvious threats like Russia, N. Korea, Iran etc.. so the Mexico City scenario would leave us with our military at our border and that's about it... Bush is a chicken in that regards...
quote:i'm not excusing Russia, what i'm doing is pointing out that the Russkie response is simply predictable, the chess game is not playing out any differently than anybody should expect, except the East Europeans who might have thought we could actually go and help them stop the Russkies from attacking with a few dozen F22's; we can't... ...
Yah, your excusing them from the get go...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: Mach, just cause you're not doing so hot on this one is no reason for calling me a knuckle dragging mouth breathing government parrot... Just low
On the contrary I am doing just fine on this issue.... I showed Russia is a coming threat on our own hemisphere, used your own article to show Ossetia's militia is "Moscow-backed" , Georgia was being provoked, the pipelines would run through Georgia bypassing Russia etc. etc.
As for your description of PMS, funny thing is he calls you the same thing in not so many words... pop that Johnny Walker Gold from your cabinet and pass it around with some ice... it's on you....
Posted by Relentless. on :
I never said Ossetia's military wasn't Russia backed.. of course they are.. THEY WANT TO BE RUSSIAN. My point is and has been that we would act exactly the same if Russia was doing this to us.. I do have just a smidgen of proof for that statement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis
The funny thing is that your current attitude is just as smug as that article you posted... And just as wrong.
Posted by bond006 on :
Back to Story - Help US, Poland OK missile defense base, riling Moscow By VANESSA GERA and MONIKA SCISLOWSKA, Associated Press Writers Wed Aug 20, 6:09 PM ET
The United States and Poland signed a deal Wednesday to place a U.S. missile defense base just 115 miles from Russia — a move followed swiftly by a new warning from Moscow of a possible military response.
For many Poles — whose country has been a staunch U.S. ally — the accord represented what they believed would be a guarantee of safety for themselves in the face of a newly assertive Russia.
Negotiators sealed the deal last week against a backdrop of Russian military action in Georgia, a former Soviet republic turned U.S. ally, that has worried former Soviet satellites across eastern Europe. It prompted Moscow's sharpest rhetoric yet over the system, which it contends is aimed at Russia despite Washington's insistence the site is purely defensive.
After Wednesday's signing, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice dismissed any suggestion the 10 missile defense interceptors — which Washington says are intended to defend Europe and the U.S. from the possible threat of long-distance missiles from Iran — represent a threat to Russia.
"Missile defense, of course, is aimed at no one," Rice said. "It is in our defense that we do this."
She denounced an earlier threat from a Russian general to target NATO member Poland, possibly even with nuclear weapons, for accepting the facility.
Such comments "border on the bizarre, frankly," Rice told reporters in Warsaw. "The Russians are losing their credibility," she said, adding that Moscow would pay a price for its actions in Georgia, though she did not specify how.
"It's also the case that when you threaten Poland, you perhaps forget that it is not 1988," Rice said. "It's 2008 and the United States has a ... firm treaty guarantee to defend Poland's territory as if it was the territory of the United States. So it's probably not wise to throw these threats around."
Poland has been a staunch U.S. ally in both Iraq and Afghanistan. It sent combat troops into Iraq as part of the U.S.-led coalition and had 2,300 troops deployed there at its peak. That has been reduced to about 900, who will be pulled out in October. At the same time, Poland has been building up its military presence in Afghanistan, where it currently has some 1,600 troops.
Hours after the signing, Russia's Foreign Ministry warned that Moscow's response would go beyond diplomacy. The system to be based in Poland lacks "any target other than Russian intercontinental ballistic missiles," it said in a statement, contending the U.S. system "will be broadened and modernized."
"In this case Russia will be forced to react, and not only through diplomatic" channels, it said without elaborating.
Democratic Rep. Ellen Tauscher, who leads a key appropriations panel for missile defense, praised the deal. But she said that Democratic lawmakers intend to withhold funding for the interceptors planned for Poland until they are properly tested, a move that could delay the deployment for years.
The deal follows an earlier agreement to place the second component of the missile defense shield — a radar tracking system — in the neighboring Czech Republic, another formerly communist country now in NATO.
"We have achieved our main goals, which means that our country and the United States will be more secure," Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk told Rice after the signing.
Many Poles agreed. "After what happened in Georgia, I believe that this is good protection for us," said Kazimierz Dziuba, 49, a hospital worker in Warsaw.
The Georgian conflict "made the Americans agree to this deal sooner because the Russians are getting too bossy," Dziuba said.
Not all Poles were happy, however.
Alina Kesek, an 82-year-old retired office clerk who lived through World War II, when Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union divided Poland between them, and then experienced four decades of Moscow-dominated communist rule, said the Patriot missiles were a "kind of provocation" toward Russia.
"This means a threat from the Russian side," said Kesek. "I am not very pleased with this deal."
Some residents in the northern Polish town of Redzikowo, where the missile defense facility will be located, fear it may expose them to retaliatory attacks or other dangers.
Along with the main deal, the two nations signed a so-called "declaration on strategic cooperation," which is to deepen their military and political partnership.
It includes a mutual commitment to come to each other's assistance immediately if one is under attack — enhancing existing obligations both have as NATO members.
The declaration also was accompanied by a promise from the U.S. to help modernize Poland's armed forces and to place a battery of Patriot missiles there by 2012.
Rice said the deal "will help both the alliance and Poland and the United States respond to the coming threats."
Poland and the United States spent a year and a half in formal talks, which snagged in the final phase on Poland's demands for the Patriot missiles and other points.
However, the deepening U.S.-Polish friendship dominated Wednesday's proceedings.
"In troubled times the most important thing is to have friends," Rice said. "But it is more important to have friends who share your values and your aspirations and your dreams. And Poland and the United States are those kind of friends."
Approval for the missile defense sites is still needed from the Czech and Polish parliaments. No date has been set for lawmakers in Warsaw to vote, but the deal enjoys the support of the largest opposition party as well as of the government.
____
Associated Press writers Matthew Lee, traveling with Rice, and Desmond Butler in Washington contributed to this report.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: I never said Ossetia's military wasn't Russia backed.. of course they are.. THEY WANT TO BE RUSSIAN. My point is and has been that we would act exactly the same if Russia was doing this to us.. I do have just a smidgen of proof for that statement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis
The funny thing is that your current attitude is just as smug as that article you posted... And just as wrong.
Again the difference is that the Poland situation is not Nuclear missiles like the Cuban Missile crisis was... so i doubt we would react like that over non-nuclear weapons... we haven't still with Russia supplying Chavez... so as they say in Family Feud : XXX
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
Famous 1951 civil defense service film someone showed me a link to on another message board. Might have to bring this one back lol
Posted by glassman on :
Again the difference is that the Poland situation is not Nuclear missiles like the Cuban Missile crisis was... so i doubt we would react like that over non-nuclear weapons... we haven't still with Russia supplying Chavez... so as they say in Family Feud : XXX
i garantee you we'd invade any country in our hemisphere that threatened to put a Russian missile system in..
it's not even a rational question....
Russian Missile Sales to Iran Draws Ire from West
S-300 SAMsDespite full denial mode by the Kremlin, Iranian defense minister Mostafa Mohammad-Najar confirmed Thursday a possible Russian sale of S-300 surface-to-air missile systems (SAMs) to Iran.
This latest reported Russo-Iranian arms deal is just another in a series of steps by the Kremlin to counter U.S. efforts to build a missile defense system, including missile and radar batteries in East Europe. Tehran purchased 29 TOR-M1 air defense missile systems earlier this year, which frustrated many Western governments heavily engaged in diplomatic talks with Iran, including the United States. Posted by glassman on :
Russia has begun deliveries of the Tor-M1 air defence rocket system to Iran, Russian news agencies quoted military industry sources as saying, in the latest sign of a Russian-US rift over Iran.
"Deliveries of the Tor-M1 have begun. The first systems have already been delivered to Tehran," ITAR-TASS quoted an unnamed, high-ranking source as saying Friday.
The United States has pressed Russia to halt military sales to Iran, which Washington accuses of harbouring secret plans to build a nuclear weapon.
Moscow has consistently defended its weapons trade with Iran. Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said the contract for 29 rocket systems, signed in December last year, was legitimate because the Tor-M1 has a purely defensive role.
Exactly my point Glass... the U.S. and other Western nations are "frustrated" but they won't do anything military against Iran for acquiring such weapons... and the same will hold true if Chavez over time gets the same weapons which is my prediction he will be... and there is nothing we will do about it because they are non-nuclear and we would be condemned if we invade Venezuela even if the azz is not well liked... watch and see then you are going to give me that Johnny Walker Gold lol
Posted by glassman on :
Chavez wouldn't even risk it, so it's amoot point. he'd be dead within 48 hours of signing such an agreement, and he knows it.
As for the Iranian sale? we protested it. Just like Russia is protesting Poland...
fact is? we haven't even developed the missiles we are offering to send over there yet... read the wiki report, i've seen the same data elsewhere...
Russia is now "digging in" in Georgia which is typical Russkie behaviour, when the West complains that they lied about withdrawing? they respond with "tuffskie sh!tskie" Posted by bond006 on :
Back to Story - Help U.S. demands Russia leave Georgia "now" By Oleg Shchedrov 25 minutes ago
Russia said on Thursday it would pull back some of its troops in Georgia within 24 hours after Washington demanded they leave "now," but Moscow said it would still keep a force stationed in Georgia's heartland.
In some of Washington's toughest comments to date, the White House declared Russia in violation of its commitments to leave the pro-Western Caucasus mountain state after routing Georgian forces in a war that erupted two weeks ago.
"The withdrawal is not happening very quickly, if it in fact has begun," White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said. "The withdrawal needs to take place, and needs to take place now."
U.S. impatience has been growing by the day as it waits for a full-scale pullout of troops and weaponry that Russia sent into its small neighbor two weeks ago to counter a Georgian attack on the Moscow-backed South Ossetia region.
A Reuters reporter saw a column of T-72 main battle tanks lumbering across the border from Russia into Georgia -- the first sign of heavy armor being withdrawn from Georgian soil -- but elsewhere Russian forces remained in place.
Russian defense officials said what they called reinforcement troops would be pulled back to within South Ossetia by the end of Friday, and from there withdrawn to Russian soil within 10 days.
But they made a distinction between those troops and what they described as a peacekeeping force. This force will stay on indefinitely in South Ossetia, and a buffer zone around it, the officials said.
That would leave Russian troops still inside the Georgian heartland and close to the main east-west highway on which its economy depends.
Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, who is backed by the United States and wants to take his ex-Soviet state into the NATO alliance, said he would not stand for that.
"There will be no buffer zones. We will never live with any buffer zones. We'll never allow anything like this," he told Reuters in the Georgian capital, Tbilisi.
PULLBACK
Russia says it needs to maintain a force in Georgia to prevent further bloodshed and protect South Ossetians -- most of whom hold Russian passports -- from Georgian attacks. Tbilisi says Moscow is trying to annexe its territory.
Russian defense officials said they were honoring their commitment to pull back under a ceasefire deal brokered by French President Nicolas Sarkozy.
"All Russian military units which were supporting peacekeepers in the zone of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict will start pulling out from Georgian territory to South Ossetia on Aug 22," the defense ministry said.
"In the course of August 22 the withdrawal of these units from Georgian territory will be completed."
"Within the security zone established in accordance with the principles of settlement, which Russia is meticulously following, only peacekeepers at special checkpoints in the quantities needed to ensure security will remain," it said.
The crisis erupted on August 7-8 when Georgia tried to retake South Ossetia, a pro-Moscow region which is ethnically distinct from Georgia and broke with Tbilisi in the early 1990s.
Russian forces hit back, thrusting beyond the region deep into Georgia and overrunning the army in fierce fighting.
NATO states have pressed Russia to pull its troops swiftly out of Georgia and the alliance this week froze contacts with Russia over the conflict.
Russia responded by saying it was suspending military cooperation with Latvia, Estonia and Norway.
AFGHANISTAN
It was unclear if there would be any impact on a crucial aspect of NATO-Russian cooperation: the deal under which Moscow allows aircraft supplying the NATO-led force in Afghanistan to fly through Russian airspace.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Moscow was "not going to shut the doors" on cooperation with NATO, but he pointedly raised the issue of Afghanistan transit.
"After the famous NATO meeting (when the alliance froze contacts with Russia), some leading alliance officials were whispering in my ears: 'You are not going to halt the Afghanistan transit, are you?,"' he said.
Underlining Western support for Georgia, a top U.S. general said the Pentagon expected to help Tbilisi rebuild its military, which was left crippled by the Russian attack.
A U.S. warship will on Friday head into the Black Sea -- an area where Russia is sensitive about the presence of NATO forces -- to deliver relief supplies to Georgia, the U.S. navy said.
Valery Gergiev, Russia's best-known living conductor and an ethnic Ossetian, held a concert in South Ossetia on Thursday designed to focus the world's attention on what he said was the devastation Georgian forces had inflicted on the region.
But Georgia has accused Russia and their South Ossetian separatist allies of exploiting the war to drive ethnic Georgians out of their homes and torch their villages.
(Additional reporting by David Brunnstrom in Tbilisi, Dmitry Solovyov in Tskhinvali and Tabassum Zakaria in Crawford; writing by Christian Lowe; editing by Andrew Roche)
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: I never said Ossetia's military wasn't Russia backed.. of course they are.. THEY WANT TO BE RUSSIAN. My point is and has been that we would act exactly the same if Russia was doing this to us.. I do have just a smidgen of proof for that statement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis
The funny thing is that your current attitude is just as smug as that article you posted... And just as wrong.
Again the difference is that the Poland situation is not Nuclear missiles like the Cuban Missile crisis was... so i doubt we would react like that over non-nuclear weapons... we haven't still with Russia supplying Chavez... so as they say in Family Feud : XXX
The difference is pointless. What that shield does is remove the mutually assured destruction that keeps both sides at bay. What it does is allows the owner of that shield to initiate a first strike. So while you are patting yourself on the back for thinking you have a point you will notice a strange feeling in your stomach. That feeling is your conscience reminding you of what we all already know. Your point is wrong. You are of course free to continue trying. You can rest assured I will let you know when you are right.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Chavez wouldn't even risk it, so it's amoot point. he'd be dead within 48 hours of signing such an agreement, and he knows it.
As for the Iranian sale? we protested it. Just like Russia is protesting Poland...
We shall see about Chavez... just prepare to give me that Johnny Walker Gold...
Yes we protest... difference is the Russians have more balls to take military action in such a case and were not...
Posted by bond006 on :
Back to Story - Help Russians dig in but still promise Georgia pullout By MIKE ECKEL, Associated Press Writer 23 minutes ago
Russian forces lingered deep in Georgia on Thursday, digging trenches and setting up mortars a day before Kremlin officials promised to complete a troop withdrawal from this former Soviet republic.
But a top Russian general said it could be 10 days before the bulk of the troops left, and the mixed signals from Moscow left Georgians guessing about its intentions nearly a week after a cease-fire deal.
Strains in relations between Russia and the West showed no improvement. NATO, Moscow's Cold War foe, said Russia had halted military cooperation with the alliance, underscoring the growing division in a Europe that had seemed destined for unity after the Soviet Union collapsed.
Western leaders remained adamant that Russia remove its troops and do it quickly.
President Bush told Georgia President Mikhail Saakashvili that the U.S. "expects Russia to abide by its agreement to withdraw forces," White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said. The Georgian leader called Bush Thursday, who is vacationing at his Texas ranch.
While refugees from the fighting over the South Ossetia region crammed Georgian schools and office buildings, a scattering of people left in a half-empty village said they were badly in need of basics.
"There is no bread, there is no food, no medicine. People are dying," said Nina Meladze, 45, in the village of Nadarbazevi, outside the key crossroads city of Gori. She said she stayed because she could not leave elderly relatives behind while other villagers fled to the capital, Tbilisi.
She said the village has been virtually abandoned since the war broke out. "I cannot go on like this anymore, I cry every day," she said.
Russian troops still controlled nearby Gori, which straddles Georgia's main east-west road, and the village of Igoeti about 30 miles west of Tbilisi. On the road between Gori and Tskhinvali, South Ossetia's battered capital, Russian soldiers built high earthen berms and strung barbed wire in at least three spots.
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev promised earlier that his forces would pull back as far as South Ossetia and a surrounding security zone by Friday.
Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov reiterated that late Thursday, saying the troops would begin pulling back toward South Ossetia on Friday morning and be finished by day's end.
But the commander of Russian land forces, Gen. Vladimir Boldyrev, said it would take about 10 days for troops not involved in manning the security zones to complete their withdrawal to Russia, moving "in columns in the established order."
That suggested Russian soldiers could still be holding territory in Georgia up to the end of August.
The European Union-sponsored cease-fire says both Russian and Georgian troops must move back to positions they held before fighting broke out Aug. 7 in South Ossetia, which has close ties to Russia. The agreement says Russian forces also can be in a security zone that extends 4.3 miles into Georgia from South Ossetia.
Russian troops are also allowed a presence on Georgian territory in a security zone along the border with Abkhazia, another separatist Georgian region, under a 1994 U.N.-approved agreement that ended a war there.
Around Georgia's main Black Sea port city of Poti — outside any security zone — signs seemed to point to a prolonged presence. Russian troops excavated trenches, set up mortars and blocked a key bridge with armored personnel carriers and trucks. Other armored vehicles and trucks parked in a nearby forest.
Officials in Poti said the city had been looted by the Russians over the past week. Associated Press journalists saw Russian troops carry tables and chairs out on armored personnel carriers Thursday as residents protested. An AP photographer and TV crew were briefly detained by armed soldiers near Poti, who seized their digital memory cards and videotapes.
Poti Mayor Vano Taginadze said Russian troops were setting up new roadblocks and "moving around in the city and looking and searching in different places." Residents in Poti demonstrated against the Russian presence, waving red-and-white Georgian flags and banners and shouting "Russian occupants go home" in English.
Some Russian troops and military vehicles were on the move, including 21 tanks an AP reporter saw heading toward Russia from inside South Ossetia. Elsewhere, tanks, armored personnel carriers and trucks were seen moving in both directions on the road from Gori to Tskhinvali.
French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner hailed the report of tank movements.
"We are waiting ... for the Russians to respect their word," Kouchner told reporters in Paris. "We waited twice with dashed hopes. This time, it appears that there is at least the beginning of a fulfillment."
Outside the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, several ethnic Georgian villages were burning Thursday — many days after fighting ended — and bore evidence of destruction from looting. Some Ossetians said they were not prepared to live alongside ethnic Georgians anymore.
"It's not they, it's we who will erase them from the face of Earth," said Alan Didurov, 46.
Renowned conductor Valery Gergiev, who is Ossetian, led a requiem concert for the dead Thursday night in Tskhinvali — part of an effort to win international sympathy for Russia's argument that its invasion was justified by Georgia's attempt to regain control of South Ossetia by force.
"We want everyone to know the truth about the terrible events in Tskhinvali ... with the hope that such a thing will never again happen on our land," Gergiev said before the concert, held in front of the badly damaged South Ossetian legislature before a crowd flanked by two armored personnel carriers.
In a move sure to heighten tensions, a U.S. Navy guided missile destroyer loaded with humanitarian supplies headed toward Georgia through Turkey's straits between the Mediterranean and the Black Sea. It was the first of three U.S. warships carrying blankets, hygiene kits and baby food to Georgia.
Paul Farley, a spokesman at the U.S. naval base in Crete, said all three would reach Georgia "within the next week." He did not give their exact destination.
The United States has carried out 20 aid flights to Georgia since Aug. 19. The U.N. estimates 158,000 people have fled their homes.
"We anticipate staying as long as there is need and helping to set up the economy, because it's very important that the economy begins to take on its normal aspects. But it depends on our ability to do full assessments throughout Georgia," Henrietta Fore, the administrator of the U.S. Agency for International Development, told reporters Thursday in Washington.
___
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: You can rest assured I will let you know when you are right.
No need to bother because I already know I'm right... by the way do you know the definition of the word "Shield"? Don't bother, I will:
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This shield Audio Help /ʃild/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sheeld] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. a broad piece of armor, varying widely in form and size, carried apart from the body, usually on the left arm, as a defense against swords, lances, arrows, etc. 2. a similar device, often of lightweight plastic, used by riot police to protect themselves from rocks and other thrown objects. 3. something shaped like a shield, variously round, octagonal, triangular, or somewhat heart-shaped. 4. a person or thing that protects. 5. a police officer's, detective's, or sheriff's badge. 6. Ordnance. a steel screen attached to a gun to protect its crew, mechanism, etc. 7. Mining. a movable framework for protecting a miner from cave-ins, etc. 8. Electricity. a covering, usually made of metal, placed around an electric device or circuit in order to reduce the effects of external electric and magnetic fields. 9. Zoology. a protective plate or the like on the body of an animal, as a scute, enlarged scale, etc. 10. dress shield. 11. Heraldry. an escutcheon, esp. one broad at the top and pointed at the bottom, for displaying armorial bearings. 12. (initial capital letter) Astronomy. the constellation Scutum. 13. Also called continental shield. Geology. a vast area of ancient crustal rocks which, together with a platform, constitutes a craton. 14. a protective barrier against nuclear radiation, esp. a lead or concrete structure around a reactor. –verb (used with object) 15. to protect (someone or something) with or as if with a shield. 16. to serve as a protection for. 17. to hide or conceal; protect by hiding. 18. Obsolete. to avert; forbid. –verb (used without object) 19. to act or serve as a shield.
Posted by glassman on :
WHO is Poland shielding tho Mach? the only tactical way the Polish shield makes sense is if it's used after a pre-emptive strike for mop-up...
Russia still has over 5000, nukes
no foreign nationals will be going any where near the "guts" of those missiles, we haven't even perfected them for ourselves yet...
Posted by bond006 on :
maybe mister bush wants an attack on Poland.
I could not tell you why but of what reason would he want to put missles there
Posted by Relentless. on :
Mach, you have clearly shown your ability to define the word shield. I for one would like to take this time to say: Well done. The way you did that was just flawless. Certainly you employed dictionary.com as a samurai employs a sword. True talent must be commended. Well done... Indeed.
Now if you could just read what I wrote... that would be a trick. To understand what I wrote? You'd be a master.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: WHO is Poland shielding tho Mach? the only tactical way the Polish shield makes sense is if it's used after a pre-emptive strike for mop-up...
Russia still has over 5000, nukes
no foreign nationals will be going any where near the "guts" of those missiles, we haven't even perfected them for ourselves yet...
They have to start somewhere Glass... over time they will get better... if they are as ineffective as you say then the Russians have nothing to fear don't you agree? ...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: Mach, you have clearly shown your ability to define the word shield. I for one would like to take this time to say: Well done. The way you did that was just flawless. Certainly you employed dictionary.com as a samurai employs a sword. True talent must be commended. Well done... Indeed.
Now if you could just read what I wrote... that would be a trick. To understand what I wrote? You'd be a master.
Remember that remark about you resembling PMS.. this is one of those moments...
Posted by bond006 on :
Close Window Signs of pullback by Russian forces in Georgia Friday, August 22, 2008 IGOETI, Georgia - There are signs of a promised Russian pullback from positions deep in Georgia.
No Russian forces could be seen Friday afternoon in and around Igoeti, which had been their closest position to Georgia's capital.
A Russian armored column also was seen moving away from a base in western Georgia and a Georgian official said that forces were leaving the key central city of Gori.
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and other officials have said Russian forces would pull back to separatist regions and surrounding security zones by day's end Friday.
But there were still signs of preparations for a continued Russian military presence in other areas of Georgia.
THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.
KHOBI, Georgia (AP) - A large Russian armored column has been seen moving away from a base deep in Georgia amid promises of a pullback.
The column of 83 tanks, APCs and trucks hauling artillery was moving away from the Senaki military base and toward the border of Georgia's breakaway Abkhazia region Friday afternoon.
Georgian police said the vehicles came from the base.
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and other officials have said Russian forces would pull back to separatist regions and surrounding security zones by day's end Friday. But there were still signs of preparations for a continued Russian military presence outside those areas.
Georgia's security council chief said Friday that Russian forces also were leaving the central city of Gori.
Posted by Relentless. on :
Soooo... That's a no then, to reading or comprehending what I wrote?
Posted by bond006 on :
Back to Story - Help Signs of pullback by Russian forces in Georgia By MIKE ECKEL, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
Russian military convoys rolled out of three key positions in Georgia and headed toward Moscow-backed separatist regions Friday in a significant withdrawal two weeks after thousands of troops roared into the former Soviet republic.
In Moscow, Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said the pullback into separatist South Ossetia was finished late Friday — but the United States was less than impressed.
"(Russians) have without a doubt failed to live up to their obligations," U.S. State Department spokesman Robert Wood said in Washington. "Establishing checkpoints, buffer zones are definitely not part of the agreement."
Georgia's state minister on reintegration, Temur Yakobashvili, told The Associated Press the formation of a buffer zone outside South Ossetia "is absolutely illegal."
In western Georgia, a column of 83 tanks, APCs and trucks hauling artillery moved away from the Senaki military base north toward the border of Georgia's breakaway Abkhazia region on Friday afternoon. Georgian police said the vehicles came from the base, which has been under Russian control for more than a week.
In central Georgia, at least 40 Russian military vehicles left the strategic crossroads city of Gori, heading north toward South Ossetia and Russia. Gori straddles the country's main east-west highway south of South Ossetia, the separatist region at the heart of the fighting. After Russian forces left Gori, cranes began dismantling a Russian checkpoint.
An Associated Press reporter in Igoeti, meanwhile, confirmed that Russian forces had pulled up from their former checkpoints and roadside positions around the village. Igoeti, on the road between Gori and the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, had been the Russians' closest position to the Georgian capital.
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev had promised to have his troops out of Georgia by Friday — but a top Russian general later amended that prediction, saying it could take at least 10 days before the bulk of Russian troops and hardware could be withdrawn.
The short but intense war near Russia's southern border has deeply strained relations between Moscow and the West. Russia has frozen its military cooperation with NATO, Moscow's Cold War foe, underscoring a growing division in Europe. Georgia's pro-Western leaders are pushing to join NATO, angering a resurgent Russia.
The major fighting began Aug. 7 when Georgia launched a barrage targeting South Ossetia, which claims independence and has Russian support. Russian forces quickly drove the Georgians back and drove deep into Georgia.
Under an EU-brokered cease-fire deal, Russian forces are to pull back to positions they held before the fighting erupted, and Western leaders have called for a complete withdrawal from Georgia. But Russia says it will keep troops it calls peacekeepers in South Ossetia and Abkhazia as well as in buffer zones stretching into Georgia proper.
There were still questions about the extent of the Russian pullout on Friday.
Outside Poti, Russian troops were seen digging large trenches Friday morning near a bridge that provides the only access to the city. Five trucks, several armored personnel carriers and a helicopter were parked nearby. Another Russian position was seen in a wooded area outside the city.
The mayor of Poti, Vano Saginadze, said late Friday that two Russian roadblocks remained in or near the city. Poti is far from any zone that Russian troops could be allowed to be in under the cease-fire.
Regardless of the timing and extent of the withdrawal, Russia, Georgia and the West are bound to become embroiled in disputes over the status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which broke from central government control in early 1990s wars after the Soviet breakup.
The Russian parliament was expected to discuss recognizing the independence of the separatist regions Monday.
In South Ossetia, whose capital Tskhinvali suffered the most in fighting, Russian troops were clearly establishing a long-term presence, erecting 18 peacekeeping posts in a so-called "security zone" around the border with Georgia.
Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy head of Russia's general staff, said Friday the move was aimed at preventing looters and Georgian arms smugglers. He said Russia still expected Georgia to try future military offensives in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, where another further 18 peacekeeping posts are to be set up.
The heavily armed soldiers that Russia calls peacekeepers have been working closely with regular Russian troops and their separatist allies against Georgian forces. A total of 2,142 Russian peacekeepers are to be deployed on the Abkhazia de facto border, while 452 will man the South Ossetia de facto border, Nogovitsyn said.
In an interview with The Associated Press, South Ossetian leader Eduard Kokoity signaled that ethnic Georgians will not be allowed return to the region, charging that ethnic Ossetians were not allowed to return to Georgia after a previous conflict.
Asked whether the ethnic Georgians will be able to come back and where they will settle, Kokoity said, "Exactly, the main question is where, there is nothing left anymore."
That's because deserted ethnic Georgian villages around Tskhinvali have been burned and looted — many days after fighting ended.
In the village of Achabeti, an AP reporter saw Ossetians remove chairs, window frames and whatever else they could carry from abandoned Georgian houses. Many houses stood smoldering in the August heat and another building went up in flames. An excavator was dismantling a destroyed house.
Russian emergency officials arrived in Achabeti to evacuate the elderly who were too frail to flee in an operation they have been conducting in Georgian villages for the past several days. The Georgians were taken to Gori, where officials would attempt to get them in touch with their relatives.
Many of the elderly were happy to be evacuated, having been left behind with no food or care. But some did think it was an ingenious effort by Ossetians and the Russians to deport all Georgians from Ossetia.
"They are erasing this village from the face of earth so that Ossetians would come here," Aliosh Maisuradze, 83, said with tears in his eyes.
The U.N. estimates 158,000 people have fled their homes due to the fighting. The United States has carried out 20 aid flights to Georgia since Aug. 19, and three U.S. warships were heading toward Turkey carrying blankets, hygiene kits and baby food to Georgia.
___
Posted by bond006 on :
Close Window Russia aims to keep control of Georgian port city Saturday, August 23, 2008 POTI, Georgia - Thousands of Georgians demanded that Russian troops leave the outskirts of this strategic Black Sea port on Saturday and took to the streets in protest, while a top Russian general said his country's forces would keep patrolling the area.
The comments by deputy head of the general staff Col.-Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, reported by Russian news agencies, showed that despite protests from the United States, France and Britain, Russia was confident enough to occupy whatever part of Georgia it deemed necessary.
"Russian military: You are not a liberating military, you are an occupying force!" one man shouted at the Poti protest. Banners read "Say No to War" and "Russia go home."
On Friday, Russia said it had pulled back forces from Georgia in accordance with a EU-brokered cease-fire agreement.
"There are very specific requirements for Russian withdrawal. Putting up permanent facilities and checkpoints are inconsistent with the agreement. We are in contact with the various parties to obtain clarification," White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy's office said he had pressed Russian President Dmitry Medvedev during a phone conversation Saturday to quickly remove Russian troops from an axis between the Georgian towns of Poti and Senaki.
Russia's pullback on Friday came two weeks to the day after thousands of Russian soldiers roared into the former Soviet republic following an assault by Georgian forces on the separatist region of South Ossetia. The fighting left hundreds dead and nearly 160,000 people homeless.
It also has deeply strained relations between Moscow and the West. Russia has frozen its military cooperation with NATO, Moscow's Cold War foe, underscoring a growing division in Europe.
On Saturday, residents of the strategic central city of Gori began returning. Chaotic crowds of people and cars were jammed outside the city as Georgian police tried to control the mass return by setting up makeshift checkpoints.
Those who were let through came back to find a city battered by bombs, suffering from food shortages and gripped by anguish.
Surman Kekashvili, 37, stayed in Gori, taking shelter in a basement after his apartment was destroyed by a Russian bomb. Several days ago, he tried to bury three relatives killed by the bomb, placing what body parts he could find in a shallow grave covered by a burnt log, a rock and a piece of scrap metal.
"I took only a foot and some of a torso. I could not get the other bodies out," he said.
His next-door neighbor, Frosia Dzadiashvili, found most of her apartment destroyed, leaving only a room the size of a broom closet to stay in.
"I have nothing. My neighbors feed me if they have food to share," the 70-year-old woman said.
The Russian tanks and troops are now gone from Gori - but other Russian troops are just up the road at a new Russian checkpoint. On Saturday afternoon, several thousand protesters waving Georgian flags approached the Russian position on the outskirts of Gori. Some soldiers came out of their trenches, but there was no clash.
Russian troops also held positions in trenches they had dug near a bridge that provides the only access to Poti. Tanks and armored personnel carriers were parked nearby. Russian troops hoisted both Russian flags and the flag of the Commonwealth of Independent States, or CIS, the union of former Soviet republics that Georgia recently announced it had left.
Emotions ran high as protesters approached a Russian position, but direct confrontation was avoided.
"They have the CIS flag, and that flag is not our Georgian flag," said protester Sulkhan Tolordava. "Georgia is not a member of this organization, so the troops must leave very quickly."
Russia interprets the cease-fire accord as allowing it to keep a substantial military presence in Georgia because of earlier peacekeeping agreements that ended fighting in the separatist areas of Abkhazia and South Ossetia in the 1990s.
But even though Poti is completely outside the buffer zone for Abkhazia, Nogovitsyn said Russian troops are not leaving and will patrol the city.
"Poti is not in the security zone, but that doesn't mean that we will sit behind the fence and watch as they drive around in Hummers," Nogovitsyn said, making an acid reference to four U.S. Humvees the Russians seized in Poti this week. The vehicles were used in previous joint U.S.-Georgian military exercises.
Russian forces also set up a checkpoint near Senaki, the home of a major military base in western Georgia that Georgian troops retook on Saturday. AP video footage of the base Saturday showed it had been heavily looted.
And in South Ossetia, Russian troops erected 18 peacekeeping posts in the "security zone" and planned to build another 18 peacekeeping posts around Abkhazia. A total of 2,600 heavily armed troops the Russians call peacekeepers will be deployed in those regions.
Russia, Georgia and the West are certain to continue the diplomatic struggle over South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The Russian parliament was expected to discuss recognizing the independence of the separatist regions Monday.
In some devastated Georgian towns, the only visitors Saturday were looters, arriving in trucks and cars to take whatever they could find.
In the village of Kekhvi, the ethnic Georgian homes had been burned. An AP reporter saw Ossetian men hauling away cutlery, electronics, blankets, foodstuffs and even Orthodox icons in a looting campaign driven by opportunism and revenge. Some looters even came to pluck ripe peaches off the trees.
"This is not looting, this is trophies," said Garik Meriyev, 32, a stubbled South Ossetian dressed in green camouflage pants, a black baseball cap and dusty jackboots.
He and four other men loaded their yellow Russian-made minibus Saturday with metal pipes, timber and bricks from a burned down house.
"All of this will be destroyed anyway," he said. "But now these things will serve me."
---
Posted by Machiavelli on :
Which one of these do you agree with or think we are in? :
RUSSIA INVADES, AMERICA BICKERS Putin: Rightly expected Western paralysis.
Posted: 5:08 am August 23, 2008
EVERYONE is distracted by the Olym pics. The squabbling here on the campaign trail consumes the media. Two presidential candidates and a lame-duck president all are weighing in on foreign policy. No wonder Vladimir Putin thought it was a good time to invade Georgia.
Apparently the Russian prime minister knew exactly what he was doing but assumed no one in the West did. And he was right.
Our pundits and politicians are all over the map as Putin is variously portrayed as villain, victim, patriot, tyrant - and more still.
The neoconservatives: We must make Russia pay a terrible price for subverting a democracy. Our policy of promoting liberal governments among the former Soviet republics, with integration into Europe and relations with NATO, was sound, and it cannot be allowed to be aborted by Putin.
Bottom line: Form a ring of democracies around Russia until it sees the light and likewise evolves into a constitutional state.
The paleoconservatives: Putin is only protecting his rightful national interests in his own backyard, which don't really conflict with ours. You have to admire the old brute for taking care of business. Neocons - and no doubt Israelis in the background - provoked that Georgian loudmouthed dandy Saakashvili to stick his head in a noose - so he deserved the hanging he got.
Bottom line: We should cut a deal with our natural ally Putin to keep out of each other's proper sphere of influence - and let each deal as it wishes with these miserable little third-party troublemakers.
The realists: Don't poke sticks at the Bear. We should define what our strategic interests in the region are. Maybe we can protect Eastern Europe, the Baltic republics and the Ukraine - but only if we accept that Georgia just isn't part of the equation. We need to back out of the saloon with drawn pistols, and save as much face as we can.
This is a reminder that we forgot the role of honor and fear in international relations when we encouraged weak former Soviet republics merrily to join the West and gratuitously humiliate Russia.
Bottom line: Don't get caught again issuing promises that we can't keep!
The left wing: Putin's unilateral pre-emption was just like our own in Iraq. His recognition of South Ossetia's independence was no different from our own in breakaway Kosovo. So America is just as bad. Russia's attack is the moral equivalent of America arbitrarily removing the tyrant Saddam. It's all about Big Oil and pipelines anyway - along with Bush, Cheney, Halliburton et al.
Bottom line: Another long overdue comeuppance for the American Empire.
The liberal mainstream: Both sides are at fault. We understand Georgia's plight, but also sympathize with Russia's dilemma. We should consult the United Nations, involve the European Union and encourage European diplomacy. We can learn from the multilateral NATO teamwork in Afghanistan.
Bottom line: Make sure that international institutions don't confuse an empathetic America with cowboy George Bush.
The Europeans: Prioritize! 1) Don't jeopardize gas supplies from, and trade with, Russia; 2) Avoid any confrontation in any form; 3) Make sure that Bush does not do something stupid to draw us too far in, but at least does something to avoid leaving us too far out.
Bottom line: Luckily, Tbilisi is still a long way from Berlin and Paris!
The rest of America: My lord, Putin is acting just like Brezhnev! But they told us that he just wanted to democratize and reform Russia, integrate with NATO and the EU, and help fight radical Islam! So why did he get angry with Georgia when it just wanted to do the same things he was supposed to be doing? That backstabber wasn't honest with us!
Bottom line: Now what?
The more Russia promises to leave Georgia, the more it seems to stay put. One reason may be that Putin keeps counting on us either to be confused, contradictory or angrier at ourselves than at Russia over his latest aggression. And given our inability to speak with one voice, he seems to be absolutely right.
Posted by bond006 on :
Close Window Russia recognizes breakaway Georgian regions Tuesday, August 26, 2008 MOSCOW - Russia formally recognized the breakaway Georgian territories at the heart of its war with Georgia on Tuesday, heightening tensions with the West as the United States dispatched a military ship bearing aid to a port city still patrolled by Russian troops.
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said Georgia forced Russia's hand by launching an attack targeting South Ossetia on Aug. 7 in an apparent bid to seize control of the breakaway region.
In response, Russian tanks and troops drove deep into the U.S. ally's territory in a five-day war that Moscow saw as a justified response to a military threat in its backyard and the West viewed as a repeat of Soviet-style intervention in its vassal states.
"This is not an easy choice but this is the only chance to save people's lives," Medvedev said Tuesday in a televised address a day after Russia's Kremlin-controlled parliament voted unanimously to support the diplomatic recognition.
Western criticism came almost immediately.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice says the decision to recognize the independence of two breakaway regions in Georgia is "extremely unfortunate."
She said the U.S. regards Abkhazia and South Ossetia as "part of the internationally recognized borders of Georgia" and will use its veto power in the U.N. Security Council to block any Russian attempt change their status.
Britain, Germany and France also criticized the decision.
Russian forces have staked out positions beyond the de-facto borders of the separatist regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The two territories have effectively ruled themselves following wars in the 1990s.
While Western nations have called the Russian military presence in Poti a clear violation of an EU-brokered cease-fire, a top Russian general countered Tuesday that using warships to deliver aid was "devilish."
"The heightened activity of NATO ships in the Black Sea perplexes us," Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn said in Moscow. The United States says its ships are carrying humanitarian aid but suspicion persists in Russia that they are delivering military materiel clandestinely.
Many of the Russian forces have pulled back from their positions in Georgia, but hundreds at least are estimated to still be manning checkpoints that Russia calls "security zones."
Two of those checkpoints are near the edge of Poti, one of Georgia's most important Black Sea ports - one by a bridge that provides the only access to Poti. The Russian military is also claiming the right to patrol in the city.
An AP cameraman was treated roughly by Russian troops Sunday when he tried to film Russian movements around Poti. Other AP journalists have reported on Russian looting in the city. Georgian officials have said much of the port's infrastructure - radar, Coast Guard ships, other equipment - was destroyed by the Russians.
Angering Russia, the United States sent the missile destroyer USS McFaul to the southern Georgian port of Batumi, well away from the conflict zone, to deliver 34 tons of humanitarian aid on Sunday.
The McFaul left Batumi on Tuesday but would remain in the Black Sea area, said Commander Scott Miller, a spokesman for the U.S. Navy's 6th Fleet in Naples, Italy.
The U.S. Coast Guard cutter Dallas, meanwhile, was headed for Georgia with a shipment of aid.
Embassy spokesman Stephen Guice did not give details on which ship would aim to enter Poti, but it appeared likely the smaller Coast Guard ship would aim to dock, with the McFaul possibly remaining on guard at sea.
"We can confirm that U.S. ship-borne humanitarian aid will be delivered to Poti tomorrow," Guice said.
In Moscow, the deputy head of the Russian military's general staff lashed out at the U.S. naval operation.
"We are worried" about aid being delivered on warships, Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn said. "This is devilish."
"This aid could be bought at any flea market," he added.
While he did not link it with the U.S. ships, Nogovitsyn said a unit of Russian naval ships was off Sukhumi - the capital of another separatist Georgian region, Abkhazia, on the Black Sea north of Poti. He said the ships were observing the pullout of Russian troops from Georgia.
Nogovitsyn told reporters that 10 ships from NATO nations were currently in the Black Sea and that eight more are to join them soon.
"They have very serious arsenal on their ships," Nogovitsyn said. "The Black Sea is just a small pool for their arms with the range of 2,500 kilometers."
The Georgian defense ministry said a Russian large landing ship, the Yamal, was seen in the Black Sea off Poti on Tuesday morning and another was in the sea farther north off Abkhazia, which is also under the control of Russian troops.
The United States and other Western countries have given substantial military aid to Georgia, angering Russia, which regards Georgia as part of its historical sphere of influence. Russia has also complained bitterly about aspirations by Georgia and Ukraine to join NATO.
Medvedev said Georgian Presdent Mikhail Saakshvili was so bent on ganiang control of South Ossetia that he resorted to "genocide."
"Georgia chose the least human way to achieve its goal - to absorb South Ossetia by eliminating a whole nation," Medvedev said.
Russia's military presence seems likely to further weaken Georgia, a Western ally in the Caucasus region, a major transit corridor for energy supplies to Europe and a strategic crossroads close to the Middle East, Iran, Afghanistan, Russia and energy-rich Central Asia.
After Russia's parliament urged recognition of the breakaway territories on Monday, the U.S. State Department said recognition would be "unacceptable" and President Bush urged the Kremlin against it.
"Georgia's territorial integrity and borders must command the same respect as every other nation's, including Russia's," Bush, who is sending Vice President Dick Cheney on a visit to Georgia next month to show support, said late Monday.
Russia says the West undermined its own arguments for the sanctity of Georgia's borders by supporting Kosovo's declaration of independence from traditional Russian ally Serbia in February.
Georgia lashed out at Russia, as expected.
"Russia is trying to legalize the results of an ethnic cleansing it has conducted, to oppose it to the West," Georgia's state minister on reintegration, Timur Yakobashvili, told The Associated Press. "But it will result in Russia's isolation from the world."
Britain rejected the Russian move, with the Foreign Office saying it did "nothing to improve the prospects of peace in the Caucasus."
French Foreign Ministry spokesman Eric Chevallier said France regrets Russia's decision and is committed to the territorial integrity of Georgia.
In practical terms, Russian recognition seems unlikely break the isolation of the two breakaway regions.
Neither region has much to export, or much of an economy. Both rely heavily on Russia for pensions and government subsidies. Most people in the two regions have been given Russian passports, and already consider themselves citizens of Russia.
But it marked an initial step toward what could become modern Russia's first push for territorial expansion.
In London, British oil company BP PLC announced Monday it has reopened the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline, which runs through Georgia.
The pipeline, which provides some 1 million barrels per day of Caspian Sea crude to international markets, had been closed for more than two weeks after a fire on its Turkish stretch. Kurdish rebels claimed responsibility for the blaze.
BP's ability to export Caspian oil had been seriously curtailed by both the fire on the Turkish stretch of the BTC line and the fighting with Russia in Georgia.
The London-based company shut down its Baku-Supsa oil pipeline - which runs through the center of Georgia from Baku in Azerbaijan to Supsa on Georgia's Black Sea coast - on August 12 because of security concerns. That line, which had been pumping about 90,000 barrels a day, remains closed.
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Posted by glassman on :
had to see this coming:
Russia says U.S. ships arms to Georgia, U.S. denies
11:20 a.m. August 26, 2008
MOSCOW – Russian President Dmitry Medvedev on Tuesday accused the United States of shipping arms to Georgia on U.S. naval vessels, but Washington denied the charge.
Medvedev made the charge in an interview on the BBC when he was asked if Russia was mounting a blockade of ships off Georgia's Black Sea port of Poti where the American warship USS McFaul is due to deliver humanitarian aid.
Close Window US, Russia anchor military ships in Georgian ports Wednesday, August 27, 2008 BATUMI, Georgia - A U.S. military ship loaded with aid docked at a southern Georgian port Wednesday, and Russia sent three missile boats to another Georgian port as the standoff escalated over a nation devastated by war with Russia.
The dockings came a day after Russian President Dmitry Medvedev recognized two Georgian rebel territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states, prompting harsh criticism from Western nations.
Georgia reacted Wednesday by recalling all but two diplomats from its embassy in Moscow.
The U.S. Coast Guard cutter Dallas, carrying 34 tons of humanitarian aid, docked in the Black Sea port of Batumi, south of the zone of this month's fighting between Russia and Georgia. The arrival avoided Georgia's main cargo port of Poti, still controlled by Russian soldiers.
The U.S. Embassy in Georgia had earlier said the ship was headed to Poti, but then retracted the statement. Zaza Gogava, head of Georgia's joint forces command, said Poti could have been mined by Russian forces and still contained several sunken Georgian ships hit in the fighting.
Poti's port reportedly suffered heavy damage from the Russian military. In addition, Russian troops have established checkpoints on the northern approach to the city and a U.S. ship docking there could be perceived as a direct challenge.
Meanwhile, Russia's missile cruiser, the Moskva, and two smaller missile boats anchored at the port of Sukhumi, the capital of Abkhazia, some 180 miles north of Batumi. The Russian navy says the ships will be involved in peacekeeping operations.
Although Western nations have called the Russian military presence in Poti a clear violation of an European Union-brokered cease-fire, a top Russian general has called using warships to deliver aid "devilish."
Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn warned that NATO has already exhausted the number of forces it can have in the Black Sea, according to international agreements, and warned Western nations against sending more ships.
"Can NATO - which is not a state located in the Black Sea - continuously increase its group of forces and systems there? It turns out that it cannot," Nogovitsyn was quoted as saying Wednesday by the Interfax news agency.
Western leaders assailed Russia for violating Georgia's territorial sovereignty.
"We cannot accept these violations of international law, of accords for security and cooperation in Europe, of United Nations resolutions, and the taking ... of a territory by the army of a neighboring country," French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said Wednesday.
President Bush, meanwhile, urged Russia to reconsider its "irresponsible decision."
"Russia's action only exacerbates tensions and complicates diplomatic negotiations," Bush said in a statement Tuesday from Crawford, Texas, where he is on vacation.
Many of the Russian forces that drove deep into Georgia after fighting broke out Aug. 7 in the separatist region of South Ossetia have pulled back, but hundreds at least are estimated to still be manning checkpoints that Russia calls "security zones" inside Georgia proper.
The U.S. and other Western countries have given substantial military aid to Georgia, angering Russia, which regards Georgia as part of its historical sphere of influence. Russia also has complained bitterly about aspirations by Georgia and Ukraine to join NATO.
In Tbilisi, boxes of aid were sorted, stacked and loaded onto trucks Wednesday for some of the tens of thousands of people still displaced by the fighting. Some boxes were stamped "USAID - from the American People."
Tim Callaghan, head of the USAID response team, told an AP television crew that aid workers would "continue to assess the needs" of those affected by the fighting and "provide other assistance as required."
The United Nations estimated that nearly 160,000 people had to flee their homes, but hundreds have returned to Georgian cities like Gori in the past week.
Russia's ambassador to Moldova, meanwhile, said the country's leaders should be wary of what happened in Georgia and avoid a "bloody and catastrophic trend of events" in the separatist, pro-Russia region of Trans-Dniester. The ambassador, Valeri Kuzmin, said Russia recognized the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia because of "Georgia's aggression against South Ossetia."
Trans-Dniester broke away from the former Soviet republic of Moldova in 1990. A war broke out between Moldovan forces and separatists in 1992 leaving 1,500 dead. Trans-Dniester is supported by Russia but is not recognized internationally. Russia has 1,500 troops stationed there to guard weapons facilities.
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Associated Press writer Jim Heintz in Tbilisi, Georgia, contributed to this report.
Posted by bond006 on :
Close Window Western nations warn Russia to `change course' Wednesday, August 27, 2008 TBILISI, Georgia - Western leaders warned Russia on Wednesday to "change course," hoping to keep a conflict that already threatens a key nuclear pact and could even raise U.S. chicken prices from blossoming into a new Cold War.
Moscow said it was NATO expansion and Western support for Georgia that was causing the new East-West divisions, and Prime Minister Vladimir Putin lashed out at the United States for using military ships to deliver humanitarian aid to Georgia.
Meanwhile, Georgia slashed its embassy staff in Moscow to protest Russia's recognition of the two separatist enclaves that were the flashpoint for the five-day war between the two nations earlier this month.
The tensions have spread to the Black Sea, which Russia shares unhappily with three nations that belong to NATO and two others that desperately want to, Ukraine and Georgia. Some Ukrainians fear Moscow might set its sights on their nation next.
In moves evocative of Cold War cat-and-mouse games, a U.S. military ship carrying humanitarian aid docked at a southern Georgian port, and Russia sent a missile cruiser and two other ships to a port farther north in a show of force.
The maneuvering came a day after Russian President Dmitry Medvedev had said his nation was "not afraid of anything, including the prospect of a Cold War." For the two superpowers of the first Cold War, the United States and Russia, repercussions from this new conflict could be widespread.
Russia's agriculture minister said Moscow could cut poultry and pork import quotas by hundreds of thousands of tons, hitting American producers hard and thereby raising prices for American shoppers.
Russians sometimes refer to American poultry imports as "Bush's legs," a reference to the frozen chicken shipped to Russia amid economic troubles following the 1991 Soviet collapse, during George H.W. Bush's presidency.
And a key civil nuclear agreement between Moscow and Washington appears likely to be shelved until next year at the earliest.
On the diplomatic front, the West's denunciations of Russia grew louder.
Britain's top diplomat equated Moscow's offensive in Georgia with the Soviet tanks that invaded Czechoslovakia to crush the Prague Spring democratic reforms in 1968, and demanded Russia "change course."
"The sight of Russian tanks in a neighboring country on the 40th anniversary of the crushing of the Prague Spring has shown that the temptations of power politics remain," Foreign Secretary David Miliband said.
Western leaders have accused Russia of using inappropriate force when it sent tanks and troops into Georgia earlier this month. The Russian move followed a Georgian crackdown on the pro-Russian South Ossetia.
Many of the Russian forces that drove deep into Georgia after fighting broke out Aug. 7 have pulled back, but hundreds are estimated to still be manning checkpoints that Russia calls "security zones" inside Georgia proper.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel pressed Russian President Dmitry Medvedev in a phone call to immediately fulfill the EU-brokered cease-fire by pulling all troops out of Georgia.
The Kremlin rejected Western criticism, and Tuesday even suggested the conflict could spread. It starkly warned another former Soviet republic, tiny Moldova, that aggression against a breakaway region there could provoke a military response.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy accused Russia of trying to redraw the borders of Georgia. His foreign minister went further, suggesting Russia had engaged in "ethnic cleansing" in South Ossetia, one of the two Georgian rebel territories.
And the seven nations that along with Russia make up the G-8 issued a statement that underlined Russia's growing estrangement from the West.
The seven - United States, Britain, France, Canada, Germany, Japan and Italy - said Russia's decision to recognize South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent countries violated the Georgia's territorial integrity.
Two weeks ago, officials had told The Associated Press that the G-7 were weighing whether to effectively disband what is known as the G-8 by throwing Moscow out.
Georgia's prime minister put damage from the Russian war at about $1 billion but said it did not fundamentally undermine the Georgian economy. Georgia, which has a national budget of about $3 billion, hopes for substantial Western aid to recover.
The United Nations has estimated nearly 160,000 people had to flee their homes, but hundreds have returned to Georgian cities like Gori in the past week.
In the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, boxes of aid were sorted, stacked and loaded onto trucks Wednesday for some of the tens of thousands of people still displaced by the fighting. Some boxes were stamped "USAID - from the American People."
In the Black Sea, the U.S. Coast Guard cutter Dallas, carrying 34 tons of humanitarian aid, docked in Batumi. The missile destroyer USS McFaul was there earlier this week delivering aid, and the U.S. planned to leave it in the Black Sea for now.
A spokesman for Putin, quoted by Interfax news agency, observed: "Military ships are hardly a common way to deliver such aid."
The U.S. has used military ships to deliver humanitarian aid before, including in the aftermath of the 2004 Asian tsunami.
The U.S. Embassy in Georgia had earlier said the Dallas was headed to the port city of Poti but then retracted the statement. A Georgian official said the port in Poti could have been mined by Russian forces.
Poti's port reportedly suffered heavy damage from the Russian military. In addition, Russian troops have established checkpoints on the northern approach to the city, and a U.S. ship docking there could have been seen as a direct challenge.
Meanwhile, the Russian missile cruiser Moskva and two smaller missile boats anchored at the port in Sukhumi, the capital of Abkhazia, some 180 miles north of Batumi. The Russian Navy says the ships will be involved in peacekeeping operations.
Russian Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn warned that NATO has already exhausted the number of forces it can have in the Black Sea, according to international agreements, and warned Western nations against sending more ships.
"Can NATO - which is not a state located in the Black Sea - continuously increase its group of forces and systems there? It turns out that it cannot," Nogovitsyn was quoted as saying Wednesday by Interfax.
Posted by Relentless. on :
Moscow has issued an extraordinary warning to the West that military assistance to Georgia for use against South Ossetia or Abkhazia would be viewed as a "declaration of war" by Russia.
The extreme rhetoric from the Kremlin's envoy to NATO came as President Dmitry Medvedev stressed he will make a military response to US missile defence installations in eastern Europe, sending new shudders across countries whose people were once blighted by the Iron Curtain.
And Moscow also emphasised it was closely monitoring what it claims is a build-up of NATO firepower in the Black Sea.
The incendiary warning on Western military involvement in Georgia - where NATO nations have long played a role in training and equipping the small state - came in an interview with Dmitry Rogozin, a former nationalist politician who is now ambassador to the North Atlantic Alliance.
"If NATO suddenly takes military actions against Abkhazia and South Ossetia, acting solely in support of Tbilisi, this will mean a declaration of war on Russia," he stated.
Yesterday likened the current world crisis to the fevered atmosphere before the start of the First World War.
Rogozin said he did not believe the crisis would descend to war between the West and Russia.
But his use of such intemperate language will be seen as dowsing a fire with petrol.
Top military figure Colonel General Leonid Ivashov, president of the Academy of Geopolitical Studies in Moscow, alleged that the US and NATO had been arming Georgia as a dress rehearsal for a future military operation in Iran.
"We are close to a serious conflict - U.S. and NATO preparations on a strategic scale are ongoing. In the operation the West conducted on Georgian soil against Russia - South Ossetians were the victims or hostages of it - we can see a rehearsal for an attack on Iran."
He claimed Washington was fine tuning a new type of warfare and that the threat of an attack on Iran was growing by the day bringing "chaos and instability" in its wake.
With the real architect of the worsening Georgian conflict - prime minister Vladimir Putin - remaining in the background, Medvedev followed up on Rogozin's broadside with a threat to use the Russian military machine to respond to the deployment of the American anti-missile defence system in Poland and the Czech republic.
Poland agreed this month to place ten interceptor missiles on its territory, and Moscow has already hinted it would become a nuclear target for Russia in the event of conflict.
"These missiles are close to our borders and constitute a threat to us," Medvedev told Al-Jazeera television. "This will create additional tension and we will have to respond to it in some way, naturally using military means."
The Russian president said that offering NATO membership to Georgia and Ukraine, two former Soviet republics, would only aggravate the situation.
Moscow has consistently expressed its opposition to the U.S. missile shield, saying it threatens its national security.
The U.S. claims the shield is designed to thwart missile attacks by what it calls "rogue states," including Iran.
Meanwhile, Russia - seen by the West as flouting international law - today demanded NATO abide by an obscure agreement signed before the Second World War limiting its warships in the Black Sea.
"In light of the build-up of NATO naval forces in the Black Sea, our fleet has also taken on the task of monitoring their activities," said hawkish deputy head of Russia's general staff, Anatoly Nogovitsyn.
The Montreux Convention, as it is called, sets a weight restriction of 45,000 tonnes on the number of warships that countries outside the Black Sea region can deploy in the basin.
"Can NATO indefinitely build up its forces and means there? It turns out it cannot," said Nogovitsyn.
NATO has said it is undertaking pre-arranged exercises in the Black Sea involving US, German, Spanish and Polish ships. Two other US warships sailed to Georgian waters with humanitarian aid.
Georgia is poised to sever diplomatic relations with Russia, or reduce them to a bare minimum.
"We will drastically cut our diplomatic ties with Russia," said a top official.
President Mikhail Saakashvili said he was frightened to leave Georgia to attend the EU summit on the crisis.
"If I leave Georgia, the Russians will close our airspace and prevent me from returning home," he said.
Russia sought Chinese backing for its action - but the Communist regime in Beijing appeared reluctant to offer support, instead issuing a statement saying it was "concerned" about recent developments.
NATO called for Russia to reverse its decision on recognition for the two enclaves, both Georgian under international law.
But the new 'president' of South Ossetia, Eduard Kokoyty, called for Russian military bases on his territory.
French foreign minister Bernard Kouchner warned today that an marauding Russian bear could trample over other ex-Soviet states.
"That is very dangerous," he said, pointing at Ukraine and Moldova.
Close Window Georgia to sever diplomatic ties with Russia Friday, August 29, 2008 TBILISI, Georgia - A Georgian Foreign Ministry official says Georgia is to recall all diplomatic staff from its embassy in Moscow because of the Russian military presence in Georgia.
Nato Chikovani says Georgia will withdraw its staff on Saturday, following a parliamentary vote in favor of the move on Thursday.
Russian news agencies cite Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Andrei Nestrenko as criticizing the move, saying it will not benefit bilateral relations.
Georgia is angry at the lingering presence of Russian troops in Georgia despite Russia's promise to withdraw in accordance with an EU-brokered cease-fire.
THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.
TSKHINVALI, Georgia (AP) - Russia intends to eventually absorb Georgia's breakaway province of South Ossetia, a South Ossetian official said Friday, three days after Moscow recognized the region as independent and drew criticism from the West.
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and the region's leader, Eduard Kokoity, discussed the future of South Ossetia earlier this week in Moscow, South Ossetian parliamentary speaker Znaur Gassiyev said.
Russia will absorb South Ossetia "in several years" or earlier, a position was "firmly stated by both leaders," Gassiyev said.
In Moscow, a Kremlin spokeswoman said Friday there was "no official information" on the talks.
The vice speaker of Georgia's parliament, Gigi Tsereteli, said the statement cannot be taken seriously.
"The separatist regimes of Abkhazia and South Ossetia and the Russian authorities are cut off from reality," he said in Tbilisi. "The world has already become different and Russia will not long be able to occupy sovereign Georgian territory."
"The regimes of Abkhazia and South Ossetia should think about the fact that if they become part of Russia, they will be assimilated and in this way they will disappear," he added.
Moscow's recognition Tuesday of South Ossetia and another separatist province, Abkhazia, came on the back of a short war that began Aug. 7, when Georgia launched a military offensive to retake South Ossetia. Russia responded by rolling hundreds of tanks into the Moscow-friendly province and pushed the Georgian army out.
Russia blasted the offensive as blind aggression, saying the move deprived Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili of the moral authority to defend Georgia's territorial integrity.
Georgia and the West in turn criticized Russia for pressing further into Georgia proper and for ignoring a cease-fire brokered by the European Union.
But a high-ranking official in French President Nicolas Sarkozy's office says that for now "we don't foresee any sanctions decided on by the European Council."
European Union leaders are holding a summit Monday and some member countries have pushed to punish Russia over the crisis with Georgia. But Sarkozy's office believes Europe must concentrate on pressuring Russia to apply a cease-fire agreement.
France currently holds the rotating EU presidency.
The official spoke Friday on condition of anonymity because of office policy. He elaborated on remarks by France's foreign minister, who has said sanctions were being considered.
Meanwhile, Russia and South Ossetia plan to sign an agreement on the placement of Russian military bases in South Ossetia, the province's deputy parliamentary speaker Tarzan Kokoiti said. How many bases that involves will become clear on Sept. 2, when the document is set to be signed, he said.
He said South Ossetians have the right to reunite with North Ossetia, which is part of Russia.
"Soon there will be no North or South Ossetia - there will be a united Alania as part of Russia," Kokoiti said, using another name for Ossetia.
"We will live in one united Russian state," he said.
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin accused the United States on Thursday of instigating the fighting in Georgia and said he suspects a connection to the U.S. presidential campaign - a contention the White House dismissed as "patently false."
Putin said that Russia had hoped the U.S. would restrain Georgia, which Moscow accuses of starting the war by attacking South Ossetia on Aug. 7. Instead, he suggested the U.S. encouraged the nation's leadership to try to rein in the separatist region by force.
Kurt Volker, the U.S. Ambassador to NATO, said Friday that the fighting was prompted by Russian pressure and shelling from South Ossetia.
"We did have lots of contacts with Georgia over a long period of time. And the nature of that has always been to say 'don't let yourself get drawn into a military confrontation here,'" Volker said. "Georgia found it too hard to hold that line when they were seeing what Russia was preparing to do."
--
Associated Press Writers Misha Dzhindhzikhashvili and Jim Heintz in Tbilisi, Georgia; Laurent Pirot in Paris; and David Nowak and Maria Danilova in Moscow contributed to this report.
Posted by glassman on :
Putin said that Russia had hoped the U.S. would restrain Georgia, which Moscow accuses of starting the war by attacking South Ossetia on Aug. 7. Instead, he suggested the U.S. encouraged the nation's leadership to try to rein in the separatist region by force.
i think Putin has a pretty good handle on US politics
look up Randy Scheunemann...
Posted by bond006 on :
Close Window Georgia to sever diplomatic ties with Russia Friday, August 29, 2008 TBILISI, Georgia - Georgia severed diplomatic ties with Moscow on Friday to protest the presence of Russian troops on its territory, and its president cast the far-confrontation over his country's fate as "a fight between the civilized and the uncivilized worlds."
With European Union leaders set to huddle on how to deal with an increasingly assertive Russia, Vladimir Putin angrily warned Europe not to do America's bidding and said Moscow does not fear Western sanctions.
Russia has faced isolation over its offensive in Georgia and its recognition of the breakaway Georgian regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. No other country has followed suit and recognized the regions' independence. The United States and Europe have condemned Russia's actions but are hard pressed to find an effective response.
Georgia's diplomats in Russia will leave Moscow on Saturday, Georgian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Nato Chikovani said. Georgia's leadership followed through on a call from lawmakers who voted unanimously late Thursday to break off ties with Russia, branding it an "aggressor country."
"We found ourselves in an awkward situation when a country militarily invading and occupying our country, then recognizing part of its territories, is trying to create a sense of normalcy" by maintaining diplomatic relations, Georgian Foreign Minister Eka Tkeshelashvili said in Sweden.
"I think it is the right decision," Tbilisi resident Irakli Makharadze said. "What else should we do in the situation when the country is fighting against us, is occupying our territories, destroying everything and killing our people? We could not react differently."
The diplomatic break will require Georgia and Russia to negotiate through third countries if they negotiate at all - a sticky situation because Russia sees Western nations as biased in Georgia's favor. Georgia, which had pushed for a greater role for international organizations, could see it as advantage.
But it may bring little practical change, because there were few signs of any productive diplomacy even before the war.
Trade between Russia and Georgia are also minimal, following Russian bans in 2006 on Georgia's major exports - wine and mineral water - and other products. Only a fraction of foreign investment in Georgia comes from Russia, while a Russian ban on direct flights to and from Georgia was lifted this year but flights halted again as the war erupted.
Russia criticized the decision, in line with its portrayal of Georgia as a stubborn troublemaker. "Breaking off diplomatic relations with Tbilisi is not Moscow's choice, and the responsibility lies with Tbilisi," Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Andrei Nesterenko said, according to the Russian news agency.
Adding to the tension, a lawmaker in South Ossetia said Russia intends to eventually absorb the province at the center of the five-day war, which broke out Aug. 7 when Georgia attacked South Ossetia in a bid to wrest control from separatists. Russia sent in tanks, troops and bombers, and has maintained a powerful military presence.
Russia further angered the West and startled even its staunch supporters by recognizing South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
Pointedly visiting Poti, a Black Sea port still shadowed by Russian forces who have set up positions nearby, Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili gloated about the lack of global support for Moscow's move to redraw the borders of his country.
"Russia ... has achieved one thing," he said. "Earlier this issue got little attention from our friends, today it is a topic for the whole world." He thanked China and Central Asian countries for not following Russia's lead and noted that Barack Obama had mentioned Georgia along with Afghanistan and Iraq in his speech at the U.S. Democratic convention.
"Today it is a fight between the civilized and the uncivilized worlds," Saakashvili said. He called the Russians "occupiers."
"They didn't come up here to seize a few villages or to ethnically cleanse although they did all of this," Saakashvili told reporters in Poti. "They came here also to destroy the rest of the country and that's what they were doing, hitting the most sensitive targets."
Putin rejected that and lashed but at Georgia and its Western supporters.
Russia defended the honor and the lives of its citizens with its war in Georgia, Putin said in an interview with Germany's ARD television, and he argued that it stuck to its mandate to help keep peace in South Ossetia.
"Such a country will not be in isolation," Putin said in an excerpt shown on state-run Russian television.
European Union leaders will not decide to impose sanctions on Russia at their summit next week in Brussels, even though some EU countries have pushed for them, French President Nicolas Sarkozy's office said Friday. Putin turned to a sausage analogy to say Moscow is not afraid.
"If we defend our lives, they will take away our sausage?" he said. "What's our choice? Between sausage and life? We choose life."
Putin also tried to drive a wedge between Europe and the United States.
"If European countries want to serve the foreign policy interests of the United States, in my view they won't win anything from this," he said, accusing Europe of doing America's bidding by supporting Kosovo's independence declaration in February.
He suggested Western emphasis on the sanctity of Georgia's borders is hypocritical, saying that a U.N. resolution on Serbia's territorial integrity was "thrown in the garbage."
"Why? Because the White House gave the order and everyone carried it out," Putin said.
Putin also accused the West of double standards over its support for Saakashvili, pointing to the violent dispersal of opposition protests in Georgia last year and the "criminal act" of Georgia's offensive against South Ossetia.
"And this is, of course, a democratic country with which one should conduct dialogue, and that should be taken into NATO and maybe the EU," he said sarcastically.
Russia has bitterly opposed Saakashvili's drive to bring Georgia into NATO.
The interview came a day after Putin told CNN that the U.S. pushed Georgia into war with South Ossetia and that he suspects it was done to affect the outcome of the U.S. presidential election - a contention the White House dismissed as "patently false."
Kurt Volker, the U.S. Ambassador to NATO, said Friday that the fighting was prompted by Russian pressure and shelling from South Ossetia.
"We did have lots of contacts with Georgia over a long period of time. And the nature of that has always been to say 'don't let yourself get drawn into a military confrontation here,'" Volker said in an interview with the British Broadcasting Corp. "Georgia found it too hard to hold that line when they were seeing what Russia was preparing to do."
Long-standing tensions between Georgian peacekeepers stationed in South Ossetia and Russian and South Ossetian troops escalated on Aug. 1 when South Ossetia said Georgians shot six people. Over the next several days, each side repeatedly accused the other of launching further attacks.
South Ossetia rejected a proposal for an Aug. 6 conflict-resolution meeting. South Ossetia says its capital came under Georgian shelling that night.
Georgia's president called a cease-fire the next evening. But hours later, the full-scale barrage of Tskhinvali began. South Ossetia accused Saakashvili of treachery, but Saakashvili said he called for the assault following attacks by South Ossetian forces and because of reports that Russian troops were moving in.
South Ossetian parliamentary speaker Znaur Gassiyev said Friday that Russia will absorb South Ossetia within "several years" or even earlier. He said that position was "firmly stated" by both the province's leader, Eduard Kokoity, and Russian President Dmitry Medvedev in talks in Moscow earlier this week.
The statement stoking Georgian suspicion that Moscow's intent all along has been to annex the South Ossetia.
In Moscow, a Kremlin spokeswoman said Friday there was "no official information" on the talks.
South Ossetia broke away from Georgia's central government during a war in the early 1990s, and many see integration into Russia as a logical next step for the province with closer ethnic ties to North Ossetia, in Russia, than with Georgia.
---
Posted by Relentless. on :
I think Glass called this one right when he suspected Neo-Con hijinks. This has clearly been an attempt to steer the election... as well as other agendas I am reluctant to discuss.
Posted by bond006 on :
Looks more and more that way, Neo-Con methods are a lot of fear and what ifs.
One think when you start to play brinksmanship it could get out of hand
Posted by Relentless. on :
I'm not entirely sure that wasn't... isn't the plan.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: I'm not entirely sure that wasn't... isn't the plan.
you can't lose an election if it doesn't happen.
Posted by bdgee on :
How terribly sad that we can honestly and sincerely suspect the Administration (along with it's cronies) of OUR Government to engage in the manipulation of a foreign and sovereign nation to bring war there in order to facilitate and secure its own political gains back home. It has earned that reputation.....
I am ashamed.
Posted by kermit42 on :
No it has not earned that reputation. It's called mental illness. The notion that Putin invaded Georgia to swing the US election to the Republicans is laughable. It would be serious if people who bought into such wild conspiracy theories mattered but fortunately there are more than enough sensible people in the US to keep them from mattering.
I recommend "Foucault's Pendulum" by Umberto Eco. It's an uneven book, great in parts but boring in others. Despite the shortcoming, it's a fascinating view into the conspiracy theory and how even an otherwise normal and sane person, once fallen into the trap of seeing a conspiracy, can be unable to escape, so alluring is the sense of seeing behind the curtain, of being privy to secret facts. Once in that frame of mind, every fact can be brought within the conspiracy, there is no disproving it. Those pointing to reality are simply part of the conspiracy or blind to its deeper truths.
The "neocons" (and none of the people using the term even have a clear idea of what a "neocon" might be, not even me) are a great example of what this sort of sloppy thinking can lead a person to.
Here's a hint: Occam's Razor. The more complicated a conspiracy theory is, the less likely it is to be true. The more people who would have to know about it, the less likely it is to be true. The more it requires the uninvolved to act in a particular way, the less likely it is to be true.
Posted by glassman on :
LOL kermit, i assure you i've read that and a couple others by Umberto including Name of the The Rose and the island of the Day before.
have you actually read up on Randall J Scheunemann?
here: Randall J Scheunemann (196?) is an American lobbyist. He is the President of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, which was created by the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), of which he is a board member. He was Trent Lott's National Security Aide and was an advisor to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on Iraq. He is 2008 Presidential candidate John McCain's foreign-policy aide. He lives in Fairfax Station, Virginia.
In 1998, Scheunemann went to work for the public relations firm Mercury Group.[1]
During the 2002 and early 2003 campaign by the George W. Bush administration to generate public support for the 2003 invasion of Iraq, Scheunemann had a close association with Iraq exile Ahmad Chalabi.[2]
Until May 2008, Scheunemann was co-owner of a two-person Washington, D.C. lobbying firm, Orion Strategies, LLC.[3] The firm has lobbied on behalf of the Open Society Policy Center, the Caspian Alliance and the National Rifle Association,among others.[4]
While the foreign affairs advisor to Republican presidential candidate John McCain, Scheunemann was also a registered foreign agent (lobbyist) for the Republic of Georgia[5] [6]
On April 17, 2008, McCain spoke on the phone with Georgia President Mikheil Saakashvili about Russian efforts to gain leverage over two of Georgia's troubled provinces. That same day, McCain issued a public statement condemning Russia and expressing strong support for the Georgian position. Also on that same day, Georgia signed a new, $200,000 lobbying contract with Scheunemann's firm, Orion Strategies. Scheunemann remained with Orion Strategies until May 15, when the McCain campaign imposed a tough new anti-lobbyist policy and he was required to separate himself from the company.[7]
In mid-July 2008, The Sunday Times linked Scheunemann to Stephen Payne, a lobbyist covertly filmed as he discussed a lobbying contract and offered to arrange meetings with Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, and others, and recomended donations to the George W. Bush Presidential Library. Payne said Scheunemann had been "working with me on my payroll for five of the last eight years." [8]
i've been actively studying the politics of the neo-cons for over 5 years now.
they had a large web-site with dozens of policy letters written and openly published.
it's not a "conspiracy theory"...
they made/make plain policy statements that are easily understood by anybody with the time and interest to read them...
it takes ZERO imagination to place them in the middle of the plans to intitiate the war in Iraq and ZERO imagination to place them right in Georgia.. since it is all public record.
as for Occam's razor? i agree, and at first? i thought the same, but the problem is that the more i learned, the more questions i found to ask.
Posted by bond006 on :
Close Window UN: Georgians effectively blocked from homes Saturday, August 30, 2008 TBILISI, Georgia - Russian troops remaining in Georgian territory are effectively preventing Georgians from returning to their homes, a UN representative said Saturday.
Melita Sunjic, spokeswoman for the UN High Commissioner of Refugees in Georgia, told The Associated Press that although it was not clear if Russian soldiers were actually preventing refugees from returning, the warnings block them from going home.
"If they say 'we can't guarantee your safety,' you don't go," she said.
Some 2,000 refugees are at UNHCR camps in Gori, and thousands of others may in the region. They hope to return to villages in the so-called "security zones" Russia has claimed for itself on Georgian territory south of the border with the separatist republic of South Ossetia.
Fighting broke out Aug. 7 when Georgian forces began heavy shelling of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, hoping to retake control of the province. Russian forces poured in, pushed the Georgians out in a matter of days and then drove deep into Georgia proper.
Under an EU-brokered cease-fire, both sides were supposed to return their forces to prewar positions, but Russia has interpreted one of the agreement's clauses as allowing it to set up 7-kilometer (4-mile) deep security zones, which are now marked by Russian checkpoints.
Refugees coming into Georgia from those zones say they are being terrorized, beaten and robbed by South Ossetians.
Georgia has severed diplomatic ties with Moscow to protest the presence of Russian troops on its territory. It claims, as does the West, that Russia is violating the EU agreement. The Georgian government announced Friday that diplomatic staff would leave Georgia's Moscow embassy Saturday, though Georgian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Khatuna Iosana said they had not left as of 6:30 p.m. local time (14:30GMT).
"We found ourselves in an awkward situation when a country militarily invading and occupying our country, then recognizing part of its territories, is trying to create a sense of normalcy" by maintaining diplomatic relations, Georgian Foreign Minister Eka Tkeshelashvili said in Sweden earlier.
Russia condemned the diplomatic cutoff, which will require Georgia and Russia to negotiate through third countries if they negotiate at all. That would make for a sticky situation because Russia sees Western nations as biased in Georgia's favor. Georgia, which had pushed for a greater role for international organizations, could see it as advantage.
But it may bring little change, because there were few signs of productive diplomacy even before the war.
Trade between Russia and Georgia is also minimal, following Russia's imposition in 2006 of bans on Georgia's major exports - wine and mineral water - and other products. Only a fraction of foreign investment in Georgia comes from Russia. A Russian ban on direct flights to and from Georgia was lifted this year but flights halted again when the war erupted.
Russia has faced isolation over its offensive in Georgia and its recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. No other country has followed suit and recognized the regions' independence. The United States and Europe have condemned Russia's actions but are hard-pressed to find an effective response.
With European Union leaders set to huddle on how to deal with an increasingly assertive Russia, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has angrily warned Europe not to do America's bidding and said Moscow does not fear Western sanctions.
Adding to the tension, a lawmaker in South Ossetia said Russia intends eventually to absorb the province.
South Ossetian parliamentary speaker Znaur Gassiyev said Friday that Russia will absorb South Ossetia within "several years" or even earlier. He said that position was "firmly stated" by both the province's leader, Eduard Kokoity, and Russian President Dmitry Medvedev in talks in Moscow earlier this week.
The statement stoked Georgian suspicion that Moscow's intent all along has been to annex South Ossetia.
In Moscow, a Kremlin spokeswoman said Friday there was "no official information" on the talks.
South Ossetia broke away from Georgia's central government during a war in the early 1990s, and many see integration into Russia as a logical next step for the province with closer ethnic ties to North Ossetia, in Russia, than with Georgia.
---
Associated Press writers Misha Dzhindhzikhashvili in Tbilisi, Georgia; Yuras Karmanau in Tskhinvali, Georgia; David Nowak and Steve Gutterman in Moscow; Laurent Pirot in Paris and Malin Rising in Stockholm contributed to this report.
Posted by bdgee on :
kermit,
Back when it was all the rage of the RNC and its parishioners to tout the invasion of Iraq as necessary evil to rid the world of a nuclear bomb and nerve gas toting madman that only King George the Recent had been wise enough and brave enough to collar just in the tiniest nick of time to save humanity and even the wild beast of nature from inevitable extinction, I remember your argument, above, being used against anyone suggesting that maybe there were no WMDs in Iraq , while insisting that the Administration had absolute and undeniable proof that Saddam had been a major force in 9/11.
AND GUESS WHAT????
All the claimed logic and reason you concoct to justify your position against it being too unreasonable and too complicated to pull off amount to about as much as the foam on the surface of a bottle of pi--.
They did it!
Posted by glassman on :
The notion that Putin invaded Georgia to swing the US election to the Republicans is laughable. It would be serious if people who bought into such wild conspiracy theories mattered but fortunately there are more than enough sensible people in the US to keep them from mattering.
here's another falacy that's in the collective mind...
Russia's "invasion" was not an invasion from their point of view, they were defending Russina PASSPORT holders...
too many people are overlooking the will of the Russian "ehtnic" people living in Georgia/South Ossetia.. there's alot of them..
Democratically? South Ossetia wants OUT of Georgia... when the Kosovo people wanted out? we granted that...
if you search thru pre-8-8-08 PR's you'll find that Russia was in fact REQUESTED as a peacekeeper by BOTH side of the Georgia-South Ossentia "dispute"...
look at the politcail timing of this thing:
July 9? (one month before this blew up?) Rice was meeting with Mikheil Saakashvili (Georgia President)
Remarks With Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili Secretary Condoleezza Rice Tbilisi, Georgia July 10, 2008
PRESIDENT SAAKASHVILI: Madame Secretary, I’m very pleased to host you here in Tbilisi. I think your visit is a strong investment to ever stronger Georgia-U.S. partnership. I think this is a partnership based on our common security interests, our own common economy -- economic interests. U.S. is number one investor in Georgia. But primarily, this is a partnership based on values, all the mutual values that we -- that unite us, values that’s based on democracy, freedom and support for democracy and freedom worldwide. I think Georgia is a success case of President Bush democracy and freedom agenda. And I think that we are going to continue this way, with all the ups and downs we might have. But it is a success story.
this whole thing STINKS and it is most definitely the tail-wagging-the-dog again...
furtehrmore? the situation in Kosovo is the reverse of this one, and WE pushed that one too...
historically speaking? the Ossetians have NEVER been "ethnically" Georgians, and don't want to be... they have allied themselves to Russia for about 200 years...
Posted by bond006 on :
Close Window Russia support for separatists could have ripples Sunday, August 31, 2008 LONDON - Russia's conflict with Georgia and recognition of its small breakaway territories as independent states may have broad repercussions for separatist movements in the former Soviet sphere and around the world.
The crisis could give a jolt of energy to other breakaway regions, especially those with links to Russia, or embolden China to pursue a tougher line in Tibet and Taiwan in the absence of tough Western measures.
"Any country that has a potential separatist movement will view the events in Georgia through its own unique prism," Richard Holbrooke, the former U.S. envoy who mediated peace in Bosnia in the mid-1990s, told The Associated Press.
"But the greatest cause for concern lies in the Ukraine, Azerbaijan and Moldova," all former Soviet states.
With the exception of the Balkans, post-Soviet era Europe has grown accustomed to the notion of territorial integrity as stable - if not sacrosanct.
Russia's push into Georgia and its recognition of the territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia have undermined this status quo - and may start to warm up so-called "frozen conflicts" in Moldova's Trans-Dniester region and Azerbaijan's Nagorno-Karabakh, where Moscow backs separatist movements.
Azerbaijan and Armenia are locked in conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh, which is encircled by Azerbaijan but controlled by ethnic Armenian forces. Russia has close historical and economic ties to Armenia, which surrendered control of key sectors of its economy to Russia in exchange for debt forgiveness.
For the Kremlin, the stakes in oil-rich Azerbaijan have been raised by Washington's plan to build a military base there - a project that has incensed the Russians, who have a large military installation in Armenia with hundreds of personnel, fighter jets and air defense systems.
Russia also continues to back the breakaway Russian-speaking province of Trans-Dniester, that has split from Moldova over its feared reunification with Romania.
Russian troops remain stationed in the province to guard a huge stockpile of Soviet-era military equipment. It's a situation with eerie echoes to South Ossetia - the flashpoint of the Russia-Georgia conflict - where Russia kept "peacekeepers" before the eruption of this month's war.
"By illegally recognizing the Georgian territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, Dmitry Medvedev - Russia's president - made clear that Moscow's goal is to redraw the map of Europe using force," Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili wrote in an editorial that appeared in the Financial Times on Friday.
Perhaps nowhere are concerns about Russian designs in its "near-abroad" so acute as in Ukraine.
The country the size of France with a population of 46 million has long held a special place in Russian hearts and Moscow has been humiliated by its drive to join the European Union and NATO.
Many now fear Moscow has its sights on the strategic Crimea peninsula on the Black Sea - once one of the glories of the Russian empire.
Russia has not explicitly declared it wants to regain control of Crimea but nearly 1.2 million of the region's 2 million residents are ethnic Russians, many of whom believe Crimea should be Russian.
Russia has a lease that gives it control of the Sevastopol military base until 2017 and has hinted that it does not want to leave when the lease runs out.
The events in the Caucasus have been watched closely by a resurgent China, which has tried to extinguish separatist movements in Tibet and its far western province of Xinjiang, where Beijing says radicals are trying to set up an Islamic state.
For Beijing, the Russia-Georgia conflict may be double-edged.
On one hand, the spectacle of South Ossetia and Abkhazia making a big leap toward independence with Moscow's backing may send chills through the Chinese ruling elite as it struggles with its own separatist movements.
On the other, the Kremlin's use of military might to reassert dominance in a region it considers own backyard could set a valuable precedent for Beijing as it maneuvers to assert its will in places like Taiwan - which China has vowed to take back by force if necessary.
That may account for Beijing's ambivalent response to Russia's request for support at a meeting last week in Tajikistan.
China, along with four Central Asian nations, refused to endorse the invasion or recognize the breakaway provinces - but also criticized the West and signed a statement praising the "active role of Russia in promoting peace and cooperation" in the region.
"We have our Western friends and those in Central Asia who are not in agreement with Russian actions. But we also have a strong relationship with Russia," said Shi Yinhong, a professor of international relations at People's University in Beijing.
"So China just needs to take a middle road."
In Turkey, which borders both Georgia and Armenia and hosts pipelines for Caspian Sea oil, Kurds in the country's southeast near the frontier with Iraq have been fighting for self-rule in parts of Turkey's east and southeast.
So far there are no signs the Georgia conflict will give a psychological boost to the Kurds' flagging struggle or provide the Turkish government reason to consider a harsher crackdown.
In Spain, the Basque separatist group ETA's fight for an independent homeland has steadily lost support after a long and deadly battle that has killed hundreds in terror attacks. Any sign of separatists triumphing elsewhere in Europe may help revive morale among Spain's separatists.
"The Georgian conflict isn't likely to have a direct effect on the emergence of new separatist or secessionist movements but it has the potential to create a long-term precedent," said Nicu Popescu with the European Council on Foreign Relations.
(This version CORRECTS SUBS 4th graf to correct that Moldova does not border Russia. Multimedia: An interactive with profiles and demographic data on former Soviet states with separatist movements is in the -international/separatists folder.)
Posted by bond006 on :
Russia says Washington fanning Georgia instability By Tabassum Zakaria and Guy Faulconbridge 1 hour, 30 minutes ago
Russia accused the United States of stirring up instability in Georgia on Wednesday, hours after U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney landed in the region to show support for Washington's ex-Soviet allies.
The United States has condemned Russia for sending troops and tanks into Georgia last month but Moscow has countered by alleging that Washington helped spark the conflict by failing to rein in its ally Georgia.
Cheney flew into Azerbaijan, Georgia's oil-producing neighbor which has close ties to the United States, on the first leg of a tour that will also include Georgia and Ukraine.
"We need to wait until Mr Cheney is actually in Georgia to see how he assesses the situation," Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Andrei Nesterenko told a news briefing.
"But all these calls on Tbilisi (by the United States) about the need to restore all of its destroyed military capability and so on do not in any way promote the stabilization of the situation in the region," he said.
Underlining Washington's backing for Georgia, the USS Mount Whitney, the sophisticated command warship of the U.S. Sixth Fleet, was "en route to Georgia" loaded with more than 17 tons of humanitarian aid, a navy spokesman said.
President George W. Bush's administration will announce on Wednesday a package of roughly $1 billion dollars in aid to help rebuild Georgia, an administration official said. The International Monetary Fund has approved a $750 million stand-by loan for Georgia, Economic Development Minister Eka Sharashidze said.
ENERGY CORRIDOR
Azerbaijan and Georgia are links in the chain of a Western-backed energy corridor bypassing Russia which the West fears could be in jeopardy after the Kremlin sent its troops deep into Georgia.
Cheney met representatives of BP and Chevron, two oil majors involved in a pipeline that pumps up to one million barrels of crude a day -- or about one percent of world output -- to world markets from Azerbaijan, through Georgia.
The oil company executives "gave their assessments of the energy situation in Azerbaijan and the broader Caspian region -- especially in light of Russia's recent military actions in Georgia," said Megan Mitchell, a spokeswoman for Cheney.
Cheney's visit is aimed at "sending a regional signal that American hasn't walked away from the region," said Janusz Bugajski, director of the New European Democracies Project at Washington's Center for Strategic and International Studies.
Russia drew Western condemnation by sending its forces deep into Georgia and later recognizing the breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states.
Russia said it was morally obliged to attack Georgia to prevent what it called genocide after Tbilisi tried to retake South Ossetia by force. Moscow says it is in full compliance with a French-brokered ceasefire.
CONCILIATORY
Kremlin criticism of Washington contrasts with the more conciliatory language it uses about the European Union, which on Monday threatened to suspend talks on a partnership pact but rejected sanctions against Russia, its biggest energy supplier.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who holds the EU's rotating presidency, is to visit Moscow and Tbilisi next week for talks on the standoff.
The Kremlin said Sarkozy and Russian President Dmitry Medvedev discussed Georgia in a telephone call on Wednesday.
Medvedev said the EU had adopted a "generally balanced" approach on Georgia, but he expressed regret that the 27-member bloc did not identify Tbilisi as the aggressor in the conflict, a Kremlin statement said.
In an effort to show Russia could still act as honest broker in separatist conflicts, Medvedev was expected to press for a peaceful settlement when he meets the head of a breakaway region in ex-Soviet Moldova on Wednesday.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
No offense Bond because I agree with you on most if not all your opinions... but could you post your thoughts more then newspaper articles... all of us pretty much read these articles ourselves offline already...
Posted by bond006 on :
Then you don't have to read them
Posted by wallymac on :
Venezuela to host Russia navy exercise in Caribbean 1 hour, 23 minutes ago
CARACAS (Reuters) - Several Russian ships and 1,000 soldiers will take part in joint naval maneuvers with Venezuela in the Caribbean Sea later this year, exercises likely to increase diplomatic tensions with Washington, a pro-government newspaper reported on Saturday.
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Quoting Venezuela's naval intelligence director, Salbarore Cammarata, the newspaper Vea said four Russian boats would visit Venezuelan waters from November 10 to 14.
Plans for the naval operations come at a time of heightened diplomatic tension and Cold War-style rhetoric between Moscow and the United States over the recent war in Georgia and plans for a U.S. missile defense system in the Czech Republic and Poland.
Cammarata said it would be the first time Russia's navy carried out such exercises in Latin America. He said the Venezuelan air force would also take part.
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, an outspoken critic of Washington, has said in recent weeks that Russian ships and planes are welcome to visit the South American country.
"If the Russian long-distance planes that fly around the world need to land at some Venezuelan landing strip, they are welcome, we have no problems," he said on his weekly television show last week.
Chavez, who buys billions of dollars of weapons from Russia, has criticized this year's reactivation of the U.S. Navy's Fourth Fleet, which will patrol Latin America for the first time in over 50 years.
The socialist Chavez says he fears the United States will invade oil-rich Venezuela and he supports Russia's growing geopolitical presence as a counterbalance to U.S. power.
Chavez has bought fighter jets and submarines from Russia to retool Venezuela's aging weapons and says he is also interested in a missile defense system.
(Reporting by Frank Jack Daniel; Editing by Peter Cooney)
Posted by bond006 on :
If they don't watch out they might have to deal with caribou barbie lord of the tundra.
She stop them dead in there tracks
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
this is going to get interesting in the coming months, Russia isnt done yet I think
Posted by glassman on :
nope it ain't done, it's going to get worse.
Putin most assuredly sees the transition of power (no matter who wins) as a time of opportunity...
Posted by bond006 on :
Ivan is not done at all they are plodders and the have the resources,time ,population ,and industry to be.
We don't, Ivan will fight us like he has fought everybody else massive number of war mchines that work they are crude but they work and they come at you with numbers. Every time a tank gets knocked out they replace it with 3 if they get knocked by the same method they make a change mostly a simple one but effective.
A hard for to beat.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli: No offense Bond because I agree with you on most if not all your opinions... but could you post your thoughts more then newspaper articles... all of us pretty much read these articles ourselves offline already...
Like I said most if not all of us already read these articles offline... when you post a full article instead of parts of a article that makes a point like Glass do, it takes up a big chunk of the threads page... best to just paste the parts of a article that make a point or just post a link to the article...
Posted by bond006 on :
Close Window Russia to keep troops in Georgia breakaway regions Tuesday, September 9, 2008 MOSCOW - Russia said Tuesday that it will station thousands of troops in two Georgian breakaway provinces, announcing an imposing long-term presence less than 24 hours after agreeing to pull forces from nearby Georgian areas.
Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov told President Dmitry Medvedev at a public meeting that about 3,800 Russian troops will be based in South Ossetia, with the same number in Abkhazia - a far larger presence than before last month's war with Georgia.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that footprint was needed to prevent Georgian attempts to regain control of the breakaway territories, which Russia has recognized as independent.
The officials spoke less than a day after French President Nicolas Sarkozy and Medvedev announced a revised version of a European Union-brokered deal to end the fighting between Russia and Georgia, whose European and American allies have struggled to respond to Moscow's assertion of regional military clout.
"Russian troops will remain on the territory of South Ossetia and Abkhazia on request of their leaders in parliament," Lavrov said at a briefing. "They will remain there for a long time. Their presence there will be needed at least for the foreseeable future to prevent any relapses of aggressive actions."
Medvedev and other officials had said that Moscow will maintain a military presence in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and Russia signed a deal Tuesday to establish diplomatic relations with them.
Lavrov said that he and his counterparts from Abkhazia and South Ossetia also worked out friendship treaties that envisaged close military and other links. He said that the treaties will be signed shortly.
"Russia, South Ossetia and Abkhazia will take all the necessary measures to avert threats to peace," Lavrov said. "They will provide all kinds of assistance to each other, including in the military field."
The deal with Sarkozy envisaged the deployment of at least 200 EU monitors in the area surrounding the two breakaway regions by next month. The deal obliges Russia to pull out of those regions in 10 days following the deployment of EU monitors.
Lavrov cast the deal, accompanied by the EU guarantees of non-aggression against the two breakaway provinces, as a victory for Russia.
"This document is based on an approach Russia has been defending since the start of the crisis," he said.
He said that Abkhazia and South Ossetia will be represented at an international conference on security in the region set to open in Geneva next month.
War erupted between Georgia and Russia erupted on Aug. 7 when Georgia launched an attack to regain control over South Ossetia. Russia sent in troops who quickly routed the Georgian forces and pushed deep into Georgia.
----
Associated Press writer Mansur Mirovalev and Vladimir Isachenkov contributed to this report from Moscow.
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by bond006: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Close Window Russia to keep troops in Georgia breakaway regions Tuesday, September 9, 2008 MOSCOW - Russia said Tuesday that it will station thousands of troops in two Georgian breakaway provinces, announcing an imposing long-term presence less than 24 hours after agreeing to pull forces from nearby Georgian areas.
Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov told President Dmitry Medvedev at a public meeting that about 3,800 Russian troops will be based in South Ossetia, with the same number in Abkhazia - a far larger presence than before last month's war with Georgia.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that footprint was needed to prevent Georgian attempts to regain control of the breakaway territories, which Russia has recognized as independent.
The officials spoke less than a day after French President Nicolas Sarkozy and Medvedev announced a revised version of a European Union-brokered deal to end the fighting between Russia and Georgia, whose European and American allies have struggled to respond to Moscow's assertion of regional military clout.
"Russian troops will remain on the territory of South Ossetia and Abkhazia on request of their leaders in parliament," Lavrov said at a briefing. "They will remain there for a long time. Their presence there will be needed at least for the foreseeable future to prevent any relapses of aggressive actions."
Medvedev and other officials had said that Moscow will maintain a military presence in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and Russia signed a deal Tuesday to establish diplomatic relations with them.
Lavrov said that he and his counterparts from Abkhazia and South Ossetia also worked out friendship treaties that envisaged close military and other links. He said that the treaties will be signed shortly.
"Russia, South Ossetia and Abkhazia will take all the necessary measures to avert threats to peace," Lavrov said. "They will provide all kinds of assistance to each other, including in the military field."
The deal with Sarkozy envisaged the deployment of at least 200 EU monitors in the area surrounding the two breakaway regions by next month. The deal obliges Russia to pull out of those regions in 10 days following the deployment of EU monitors.
Lavrov cast the deal, accompanied by the EU guarantees of non-aggression against the two breakaway provinces, as a victory for Russia.
"This document is based on an approach Russia has been defending since the start of the crisis," he said.
He said that Abkhazia and South Ossetia will be represented at an international conference on security in the region set to open in Geneva next month.
War erupted between Georgia and Russia erupted on Aug. 7 when Georgia launched an attack to regain control over South Ossetia. Russia sent in troops who quickly routed the Georgian forces and pushed deep into Georgia.
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Associated Press writer Mansur Mirovalev and Vladimir Isachenkov contributed to this report from Moscow.
What does Obama think we should do?
Posted by bond006 on :
First thing is he will talk.
And we better hope who is in the White House does just that first.
Truth is we can't handle a conventional war now we can hardly handle Iraq.Our country has to financialy heal first put people back to work to be strong again.
A draft is necessary to take on a big power can you think how that woud go over now.
Posted by bond006 on :
Close Window Russians troops pack up, leave western Georgia Saturday, September 13, 2008 TBILISI, Georgia - Hundreds of Russian forces packed up and withdrew from positions Saturday in western Georgia, and a Georgian official said Russia had met a deadline for a partial pullout a month after the war between the two former Soviet republics.
Russian soldiers and armored vehicles rolled out of six checkpoints and temporary bases in the Black Sea port of Poti and other areas nearby, Georgian Security Council chief Alexander Lomaia said.
"They have fulfilled the commitment" to withdraw from the area by Sept. 15 under an agreement European Union leaders reached with Russia last week, Lomaia told The Associated Press.
But he stressed that Georgia - like the West - demands a full Russian withdrawal to pre-conflict positions, in accordance with a cease-fire deal brokered by the European Union a month ago.
Adding to tension, Georgian authorities said a Georgian policeman at a post near Abkhazia was killed Saturday by gunfire that came from the direction of a position where Abkhazian and Russian forces have been based.
Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Andrei Nesterenko confirmed the pullback in western Georgia.
"Right now the withdrawal of our peacekeeping forces is happening from these posts," Nesterenko said in televised comments.
Lomaia said some 1,200 Russian servicemen still remain at 19 checkpoints and other positions, 12 outside South Ossetia and seven outside Abkhazia. Russia said it would pull them out by Oct. 11 as long as 200 European Union observers are deployed to strips of territory surrounding the two separatist regions by Oct. 1.
Russia is pushing to keep Western monitors outside South Ossetia and Abkhazia themselves, saying the EU observers' job is to protect the regions against Georgian aggression. The United States and EU, however, want to ensure security amid high ethnic tensions following the war.
The presence of Russian troops deep in undisputed Georgian territory more than a month after the fighting ended has deeply angered Georgians and been an enormous sore point between Russia and the West.
Russia's military campaign in Georgia and its subsequent recognition of Georgia's separatist regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent nations has plunged its relations with the United States and Europe into their worst crisis since the Cold War.
An Associated Press television crew saw Russian soldiers pack military trucks before dawn Saturday with blankets and other supplies at a post by a road leading to Abkhazia province. Among the items taken down - the Russian tricolor flag.
Four trucks stood packed and ready to leave the post in the village of Pirveli Maisi, along with an armored personnel carrier. A Russian column about the same size rolled past on a road leading to Abkhazia.
Russian forces left the two posts they had maintained for weeks on the outskirts of Poti, one by a bridge on a main road leading into the city and one a few kilometers (miles) from Georgia's main port and devastated naval base, Interior Ministry official Shota Utiashvili said.
"Russian forces have withdrawn completely from Poti," he said.
A third Russian post established more recently by the port of Poti had also been vacated, Lomaia said. He said some 250 soldiers and 20 armored vehicles pulled out of their positions and headed toward Abkhazia.
Near the de facto border with Abkhazia, an Associated Press photographer saw several small columns of Russian armor crossing a bridge leading toward the breakaway region and military trucks heading across another bridge at a separate location.
The brazen presence in Poti has been particularly galling for Georgia because it is hundreds of kilometers (miles) from South Ossetia, where the war broke out and where most of the fighting occurred.
In Vienna, confidential OSCE documents seen by The Associated Press revealed that Russian forces and their separatist militia allies were deliberately keeping OSCE monitors - who are separate from the planned EU mission - out of South Ossetia, where large numbers of Georgian homes have been looted and burned down.
Russia has also said the EU observers will not be welcome inside South Ossetia and Abkhazia, only in the strips of land surrounding them. The EU and Georgia want the observers to have access to the separatist regions themselves.
Western governments also say Moscow's plans to maintain 7,600 troops in Abkhazia and South Ossetia for the long term violates a provision in the cease-fire calling for both sides to return to positions held before the conflict erupted.
Georgian troops tried to retake South Ossetia by force on Aug. 7, but were quickly repelled by Russian tanks, troops and warplanes. The Russian military then drove deep into Georgia, occupying large swaths of territory before an initial withdrawal in late August.
The five-day war killed hundreds of people and drove nearly 200,000 people from their homes.
Posted by bdgee on :
I'm lot more worried about the takeover of the U. S. Government by narrow minded anti-Constitutional republicans fascist than about Russian troop in Georgia.
Someone needs to remind people that Adolph Hitler prayed to Jesus Christ and often spoke of the Christian principles on which the Third Reich was based.
"the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian."
Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928
Posted by bond006 on :
Hitler was a long time admirer of the catholic church and after the war the church helped many nazies escape from Europe instesd of waiting around for justice.
He often referred to the Russians as Godless sub humans and to make his point he killed 22million of them.
What a slaughter that was,what a waste of humans memories are short and it could happen again.Rght wing fascist in this country are on the road twards that right now covered in the flag and relegion.
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
A question for you, Bond, and Bdgee as well...
What religion was Chairman Mao? Or Stalin? Or Lenin?
Posted by bond006 on :
There has been other slaughters on earth done besides christians or people that say they are.
The three nice guys that you mentioned certainly did ther share and I for one and bdgee would never say they were right.
So whats your point
are you saying that thoese people Mao, Stalin, and I do n0t agree with you about lenin justify the use of force and murder by christians. Or that the entire history of the world is wrong?
Posted by bdgee on :
bond,
SF has no rational point. All SF is is a parrot of far right-wing evangelical republican hate dogma. It's the same stuff as Hitler's railing against the Jews. It is just hatred used to degrade and destroy, so that the hate spreader can believe that he is superior. It is sick.
Posted by bond006 on :
1) How the Patriot Act Compares to Hitler's Ermächtigungsgesetz (Enabling Act)
On March 23, 1933, the newly elected members of the Reichstag met in the Kroll Opera House in Berlin to consider passing Hitler's "Ermächtigungsgesetz". The "Enabling Act" was officially called the 'Law for Removing the Distress of the People and the Reich.'
Opponents to the bill argued that if it was passed, it would end democracy in Germany and establish a legal dictatorship of Adolf Hitler. To soften resistance to the passing of the Enabling Act, the Nazis secretly caused confusion in order to create an atmosphere in which the law seem necessary to restore order.
On February 27, 1933, Nazis burned the Reichstag building, and a seat of the German government, causing frenzy and outrage. They successfully blamed the fire on the Communists, and claimed it marked the beginning of a widespread terrorism and unrest threatening the safety of the German "Homeland." On the day of the vote, Nazi storm troopers gathered around the opera house chanting, "Full powers - or else! We want the bill - or fire and murder!"
The Nazis used the opportunity to arrest 4,000 communists. Not only did the Nazis use the incident as a propaganda against communists but they also arrested additional 40,000 members of the opposition. Consequently, the Nazis had achieved their objective of eliminating democracy and ensuring their majority in the parliament.
After the fire on February 28, 1933, president Hindenburg and Hitler invoked Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution, which permitted the suspension of civil liberties during national emergencies. Some examples of this Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of the People and State abrogated the following constitutional protections: Freedom of the press, free expression of opinion, individual property rights, right of assembly and association, right to privacy of postal and electronic communications, states´ rights of self-government, and protection against unlawful searches and seizures.
Before the vote, Hitler made a speech to the Reichstag in which he pledged to use restraint. He also promised to end unemployment and promote multilateral peace with France, Great Britain and the Soviet Union.
In order to accomplish all this, Hitler said, he first needed the Enabling Act. Since this act would alter the German constitution, a two-thirds majority was necessary. Hitler needed 31 non-Nazi votes to pass it. The Center Party provided these votes after Hitler made a false promise to them. Four hundred and forty votes were registered for the Enabling Act, while a mere 84 votes were opposed – the social Democrats. In glory the Nazi Party stood to their feet and sang the Nazi anthem, the Hörst Wessel song. The German Democratic party had finally been eliminated, and Hitler’s dream for Nazi command became closer to reality.
The Enabling Act granted Hitler the power he craved and could use without objection from the Reichstag. Shortly after the passing of The Enabling Act all other political parties were dissolved. Trade unions were liquidated and opposition clergy were arrested. The Nazi party had, as Hitler said, become the state. By August 1934, Hitler became commander-in-chief of the armed forces. This was in addition to being President and Führer of the German Reich, to whom every individual in the armed forces pledged unconditional obedience. The Reichstag was no longer a place for debate, but rather a cheering squad in favor of whatever Hitler might say.
2) A 21st Century Comparison of The Enabling Act and The Patriot Act
Last September, German Justice Minister Herta Daeubler-Gmelin pointed out that George Bush is using Iraq to distract the American public from his failed domestic policies. She capped her statement by reminding her audience: "That's a popular method. Even Hitler did that." What was lost in the reactions to Ms. Daeubler-Gmelin's comments was that she wasn't comparing Bush to the Hitler of the late 1930s and early 1940s; but to the Hitler of the late 1920s and early 1930s.
Most Americans have forgotten that Hitler came to power legally. He and the Nazi Party were elected democratically in a time of great national turmoil and crisis. They themselves had done much to cause the turmoil, of course, but that's what makes the Bush comparison so compelling.
Similar to the Bush administration, the Nazis were funded and ultimately ushered into power by wealthy industrialists looking for government favors in the form of tax breaks, big subsidies, and laws to weaken the rights of workers. When the Reichstag (Germany's Parliament building) was set ablaze in 1933 (probably by Nazis), the Nazis framed their political rivals for it. In the general panic that followed, the German Parliament was purged of all left-wing representatives who might be soft on communists and foreigners, and the few who remained then VOTED to grant Chancellor Hitler dictatorial powers. A long, hideous nightmare had begun.
History teaches us that it is shockingly easy to separate reasonable and intelligent people from their rights. A legally elected leader and party can easily manipulate national events to whip up fear, crucify scapegoats, gag dissenters, and convince the masses that their liberties must be suspended (temporarily, of course) in the name of restoring order. Consider the following two statements, and see if you can identify the authors.
Statement Number One: "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
Statement Number Two: "To those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists, for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve."
The first statement is a quote from Hitler's right hand man, Hermann Goering, explaining at his war crimes trial how easily he and his fellow Nazis hijacked Germany's democratic government. The second statement is a quote from Bush's right hand man, John Ashcroft, defending the Patriot Act and explaining why dissent will no longer be tolerated in the age of terrorism. If that doesn't send chills down your spine, nothing will.
When the shooting started at Lexington Green in 1775, those calling themselves patriots were the men and women who refused to yield their rights to an increasingly oppressive government. Today, according to John Ashcroft and his Patriot Act of 2001, a patriot is someone who kneels down in fear, and hands over his or her rights to the government in the name of fighting terrorism. Isn't the hypocrisy of this all too obvious? The Bush administration wants us to fight in Afghanistan, to fight in Iraq, and to fight wherever terrorists may be hiding. And what, pray tell, are we fighting for? Well, according to the White House, we're fighting for freedom. Yet freedom is exactly what the White House is demanding that we now SURRENDER in the name of fighting terrorism.
So what's really going on? Well, it's all a lie, of course. The Bush administration isn't any more interested in protecting our freedom from terrorists than Hitler was in protecting Germans from communists, Jews, and all the other groups he scapegoated. The Bush administration is fighting only to protect itself and its corporate sponsors. It hides behind a veil of national security and behind non-stop war headlines of its own creation. And behind that smokescreen, Bush, Inc. is pursuing Hitler’s old agenda from the 1920s and 1930s: serving the interests of the corporate industrialists who brought it to power.
There is a name for governments that serve the interests of Big Business at the expense of their own citizens: fascist. Here's a short list of the rights we've already surrendered since the September 11 attacks. Most of these abuses are from a single piece of legislation called the Patriot Act of 2001, which was rushed through Congress with no debate in the aftermath of the attacks. Many of the Congressmen who voted for it later admitted that they hadn't even read it at the time.
3) Ten Key Dangers of The Patriot Act That Every American Should Know
No. 1: The government can conduct "sneak and peek" searches in which agents enter your home or business and search your belongings without informing you until long after.
No. 2: Government agents can force libraries and bookstores to hand over the titles of books that you1ve purchased or borrowed and can demand the identity of anyone who has purchased or borrowed certain books. The government can also prosecute libraries and bookstores for informing you that the search occurred or even for informing you that an inquiry was made. According to ACLU staff attorney Jameel Jaffer, such "searches could extend to doctors offices, banks and other institutions which, like libraries, were previously off-limits under the law." Chris Finan, President of the American Booksellers group adds: "The refusal of the Justice Department to tell Congress how many times it has used its powers is even more unsettling because it naturally leads to the suspicion that it is using them a lot."
No. 3: Federal agents are authorized to use hidden devices to trace the telephone calls or emails of people who are not even suspected of a crime. The FBI is also permitted to use its Magic Lantern technology to monitor everything you do on your computer--recording not just the websites you visit but EVERY SINGLE KEYSTROKE as well.
No. 4: Government agents are permitted to arrest and detain individuals "suspected" of terrorist activities and to hold them INDEFINITELY, WITHOUT CHARGE, and WITHOUT an ATTORNEY. (That could be you or me for sending or receiving this Email, by the way)
No. 5: Federal agents are permitted to conduct full investigations of American citizens and permanent legal residents simply because they have participated in activities protected by the First Amendment, such as writing a letter to the editor or attending a peaceful rally.
No. 6: Law enforcement agents are permitted to listen in on discussions between prisoners and their attorneys, thus denying them their Constitutional right to confidential legal counsel.
No. 7: Terrorism suspects may be tried in secret military tribunals where defendants have no right to a public trial, no right to trial by jury, no right to confront the evidence, and no right to appeal to an independent court. In short, the Constitution does not apply.
No. 8: The CIA is granted authority to spy on American citizens, a power that has previously been denied to this international espionage organization.
No. 9: In addition to the Patriot Act, the Bush administration has given us Operations TIPS, a government program that encourages citizens to spy on each other and to report their neighbors activities to the authorities. It's EXACTLY the kind of thing for which we used to fault East Germany and the Soviet Union, and for which we currently fault Red China and North Korea. Fortunately, Operation TIPS (or AmeriSnitch, as it's known to its many detractors) seems to have been recalled to the factory--at least for now. (Incidentally, in a clever variation of "two-can-play-at-that-game”, Brad Templeton has set up a website at http://www.all-the-other-names-were-taken.com/tipstips.html where you can report people you suspect of being informants for Operation TIPS. It's an interesting and amusing site, well worth a look.)
No. 10: In the wake of Operation TIPS came something even worse: Total Information Awareness. TIA is a program of the Defense Department that when fully operational will link commercial and government databases so that the DOD can immediately put its finger on any piece of information about you that it wants. New York Times columnist William Safire writes: "Every purchase you make with a credit card, every magazine subscription you buy and medical prescription you fill, every Web site you visit and e-mail you send or receive, every academic grade you receive, every bank deposit you make, every trip you book and every event you attend all these transactions and communications will go into what the Defense Department describes as a virtual, centralized grand database." And that's not all. Who did our president appoint to head the TIA? Who gets to be Big Brother himself? Why it's none other than John Poindexter, a man convicted in 1990 on five counts of lying to Congress, destroying official documents, and obstructing congressional inquiries into the Iran-contra affair. Another Hermann Goering, if there ever was one.
4) BILL MOYERS' NOW COMMENTS ON THE PATRIOT ACT
At the same time the Bush administration is probing into your private life, it is shielding itself from all public scrutiny. It has shredded the Freedom of Information Act; it has locked away presidential records not only of the current administration but of administrations going all the way back to Reagan as well; and it has even locked up George W. Bush's gubernatorial records so that the people of Texas can't see what he did to them while serving as their governor.
Not surprisingly, the Bush administration is also using anti-terror legislation and executive orders to protect its corporate sponsors from scrutiny and from prosecution. The drug company Eli Lilly, for instance, was recently granted immunity from all cases brought against it-–even those initiated long before the war on terrorism--related to a vaccine it manufactured that turned out to cause autism in many children. (Eli Lilly contributed over $3 million in the last two election campaigns.) The Bush administration also protected the Bayer Corporation1s patent on the antibiotic Cipro throughout the anthrax scare, whereas other countries, such as Canada, broke that patent so that other companies could make cheaper versions of the drug in case of emergency.
It is interesting to note that during WWII Bayer was part of the I.G. Farben conglomerate, the top financial contributor to the Nazi Party. I.G. Farben produced petrol and rubber for the Nazi war machine and it manufactured the Zyklon B gas that was used to exterminate millions of Jews and other "enemies of the state." In exchange for these services, the Nazis provided Farben (and Bayer) with lucrative government contracts and with slave labor from concentration camps.
Under George W. Bush's kinder, gentler fascism, U.S. corporations are now allowed to do business with the Homeland Security Department even if they cheat the government out of vast amounts of tax revenues by setting up offshore business fronts in the Caribbean Islands. It used to be that tax-evaders were tracked down and punished. Now they're rewarded with fat government contracts. Could the slave labor be far behind?
If only this were the extent of the Bush administration's ramble down the road to fascism. Way back in November of 2001, William Safire accused the Bush administration of "seizing dictatorial power." Well, Mr. Safire, you ain't seen nothing yet. Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, just when you thought we can't lose any more of our liberties and still call ourselves a "free society," we learn that the Bush administration wants to take away even more of our rights. A secret document was just leaked out of John Ashcroft's Justice Department and turned over to the Center for Public Integrity. Titled the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003, this document turns out to be a draft of new anti-terrorism legislation, a vastly more muscular sequel to Patriot Act. If passed, it would grant the executive branch sweeping new powers of domestic surveillance, and it would eliminate most of the few remaining checks and balances that protect us from tyranny.
It's the Patriot Act on steroids. Charles Lewis of the Center for Public Integrity shared this document with Bill Moyers, who examined it on NOW, his weekly PBS program. That episode aired Friday, February 7, yet even now no mainstream news broadcaster has picked up this incredible story. Read the NOW transcript and see the document itself online at http://www.pbs.org/now/. You can also read the Center for Public Integrity's analysis of the document at http://www.publicintegrity.org/.
Dr. David Cole, a Law professor at Georgetown University and author of Terrorism and the Constitution assessed the document, saying, "I think this is a quite radical proposal. It authorizes secret arrests. It would give the Attorney General essentially unchecked authority to deport anyone who he thought was a danger to our economic interests. It would strip citizenship from people for lawful political associations."
"Secret arrests”? Did we hear that right? It seems that the Homeland Security Department (HSD) is about to become the KGB. The first Patriot Act already allows for people to be locked up indefinitely without a lawyer and without being charged with a crime. If Patriot Act II passes, then arrests would also be secret. That means that dissenters (or anyone else, for that matter) could disappear without a trace, just as they did in Nazi Germany, in Stalinist Russia, and in Pinochet's Chile.
Patriot Act II would also grant even more immunity to Big Business. A corporation could pour toxins into your local river, for instance, and you wouldn't know about it until all the fish died and your neighbor’s kids were born with missing limbs. And then when you went to court and demanded to know what the company was dumping in your river, the company could deny you that information on the grounds that it's a national security secret. Jim Hightower put it this way: "All a company has to do to shield anything it wants to keep from the public eye--say, an embarrassing chemical spill--is give the documents to the Homeland Security Department and call them "critical infrastructure information."
Ah, but there's even more to be concerned about here. The document was created back in early January, but so far it appears that the only members of Congress who even know of its existence are House Speaker Dennis Hastert and Vice-president Dick Cheney. (The Vice-president presides over the Senate, which makes him a member of the legislative branch as well as the executive branch.) This raises a troubling question: Why has the White House been sitting on this bill for a month? If the CEOs down at Bush, Inc. really believe that they need these broad new powers to protect us from terrorists, why not roll out that bill and start the debate? The answer is all too plain. In all likelihood, the Bush administration was planning to avoid debate entirely by springing this bill on the American people in the midst of a perceived national crisis. Perhaps during the war with Iraq, for instance. Or perhaps in the aftermath of the next terrorist attack. Or perhaps right after the Reichstag fire.
Had some courageous soul not leaked this document out of the Justice Department, the White House might easily have succeeded in passing it through Congress without debate in the midst of our next perceived national crisis, much as it did with the first Patriot Act in the aftermath of the September 11 attacks. A thorough debate of this bill right now, under fairly stable circumstances, would defuse it and prevent its passage even under more frightening circumstances later on. There's just one problem. The debate can't begin until more Americans know about this bill, but so far the Washington Post is the only major news outlet to even MENTION this story since Bill Moyers broke it on Friday night.
Here's what you can do to help First, forward this email to everyone you know. Second, send an email to the Center for Public Integrity and to the producers of NOW thanking them for breaking this story. Here's a sample message that you can use or modify:
I am writing to express my heartfelt thanks and admiration to the Center for Public Integrity, to Bill Moyers, to the producers of NOW, and especially to the brave unnamed patriot who valued the Bill of Rights over his or her own personal well-being and, at great personal risk, leaked a draft of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003 out of the Justice Department.
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
He's defending Christianity by showing that other non Christians are capable of acting with equal malice. On this point I agree with him. It isn't the religion that is bad. It is the predators who cloak themselves within it to achieve their own desires that are. Hence the words of Christ warning of false prophets and his anger at Pharisaical leaders.
This is were I part with SF. I believe it is important to remove those within the church that practice hypocritical behaviors and preach of rules without following the heart of the message of Christ which is 'love thy neighbor'. SF will admit the wrongs of the past but will defend anything of present day which carries the cloak of religion.
Posted by Relentless. on :
If christianity was followed like Christ taught and preached the way of salvation there would not be a country in the world that would want its churches on its soil.
All nations who's population was Christian could never have a war. And there would be no reason to attack them
You would never need a police force or a lawyer.
Nothing would operate for a profit and the wefare of people would be first,health,food and medical care.
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connect the dots...
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