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Author Topic: Global Warming Myth
Ace of Spades
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Junk Science: Global Warming Myth Busted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHjczyA75jU

Global Warming Myth Complete Stink Test

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm19gUWUaXA&mode=related&search=

Global warming myth 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRYyfXWyh1A&mode=related&search=

Global warming myth 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmc3d4oCbHU&mode=related&search=

Global warming myth 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3LntBdS3zs&mode=related&search=

Global warming myth 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMWGl_eq9Lw&mode=related&search=

Global warming myth 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-tfdXsG1TI&mode=related&search=

Global warming myth 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ss49LSNR4M&mode=related&search=

Global warming myth 7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV5FBWmkpNU&mode=related&search=

Global warming myth 8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zwIMW8GdvE&mode=related&search=

Global warming myth 9

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK6yX6Owb34&mode=related&search=

Global warming myth 10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=420m_24wYzA

Global warming myth 11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ojnv46aPZ1M

Global warming myth 12

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gQiYgOl8Ws&mode=related&search=

Global warming myth 13

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICp0x3GOwPc&mode=related&search=

Global warming myth 14

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtT9lJmvWjY&mode=related&search=

Global warming myth 15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnoI9YjabXU&mode=related&search=

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bdgee
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Myth?

Only in the minds of those too weak minded to understand the science and duped by supersticion and magic.

Idiot's arguments based on prejudice and ignorance construe about anything not known centuries ago to be myth.

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glassman
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hey Ace... why don't you go get a PhD in a serious scientific curriculum, preferably meteorology...... then read Science magazine starting back in '95.... you'll find that that global warming has more supportive evidence than most (or even all) of the worlds religions...

you'll still be calling it myth when the ocean levels rise another five feet i bet...

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bdgee
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Those guys aren't interesed in science, glaass....

And certainly not in learning anything that requires any effort.

They get their "intel" and their "info" from the Party, which not only provides them with all the answers but "talking points" and a list of "preferred words", with negative connotations to plant in the minds of the public. (Though, I seriously doubt they actually understand what connotation is.)

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Ace of Spades
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LoL, oh brother
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OILDOG
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EEeeeeCeeeLLLllleeennnttt Links Ace!!!! Debunks the Global Warming fraud.

"serious scientific curriculum"....meteorology?? lol.
Global Warming IS a religion...practized by enviro/nazis.
And....I happen to know David Demming, geophysicist at OU,and his problems with Dr. Snow, "GW" high priest,head of dept., a "weather guy".

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bdgee
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Hahaha

We hear from the name-dropping misinformation network.....

You don't know any such of a thing....you just preach....just like the rest of the far right wing religious extremist who think science is trumped by the myths they believe came from the bible.


Put "David Demming University of Oklahoma" into a search engine and you can learn how unimpressed the scientific world is with him.

He's a crackpot.....for sale to the highest bidder, provided it is big oil.

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bond006
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Anybody that would believe global warming is a big liberal lie is a fool
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bdgee
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Or a liar
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The Bigfoot
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Wow! Even Bushy is starting to accept the truth of global warming. Are you guys even more hard headed than the Bush? Wow!

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glassman
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yep, they can't accept the fact that they just wasted 6 years on the countdown clock:

White House Calls for Threatened Listing for Polar Bears
January 2, 2007
Reporting by Roddy Scheer

In what many environmentalists consider an about-face on both endangered species and global warming, the Bush administration last week announced that it would recommend listing America’s polar bears as threatened under the nation’s Endangered Species Act.

“We are making this proposal because a scientific review of the species by the Fish and Wildlife service found that populations may be threatened by receding sea ice, which polar bears use as a platform for many activities essential to their life cycle, including hunting for their main prey, Arctic seals,” said Interior Secretary Dirk Kempthorne at a news conference.



d'oh?

destroying our ecosystem isn't a crime, it's a SIN!

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bdgee
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Yes, a sin....and a universally deadly one.
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OILDOG
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roflmao. wow!!! You boys sure make hard-hitting, reasoned,"scientific" arguments in support of your cult/religion,don't you!!! Such as:

Only in the minds of those too weak minded to understand the science and duped by supersticion and magic.

Idiot's arguments based on prejudice and ignorance construe about anything not known centuries ago to be myth.

Anybody that would believe global warming is a big liberal lie is a fool

Or a liar

And,your using Bush now....as proof too? THE MORON? roflmao. wwwhhhhheeeeeee!!!!!!!
Getting pretty desparate,hysterical aren't you?
Have you watched the links Ace provided? Should make any THINKING person wonder and question. But, then, you don't NEED to question "church" doctrine, do you boys! Gaia speaks through enviro special interests priests and the WORD is TRUTH!!!! heh heh.It's ALL about....fund raising...mmmoooonnnnneeeeeyyyyy! They are money-raising frauds...like the pink stocks. The parallel is ...interesting. Unaudited,unaccountable to anyone. Say ANYTHING to get mmmooonnneeeeyyyy! A lot of them are spin-offs, drop box frauds,empty shells. Huge salaries,expensive mansions,private jets,porno lifestyles. $25 billion a year "industry".

But hey...I'm for clean air,water,oceans. Save the whales. Why do we NEED (the Japs) to kill whales. Too big to hang above the mantle,bird dogs won't point 'em. They don't covey-up and flush worth a darn. Dog can't retrieve 'em. Whats the point?
Now,Global Warming is a.....FACT. Yes,thats rrriiiiigggggtttttt!!! Fact. Been going on for AT LEAST 500 million years. Probably much much longer,since its believed there is a 500 million year gap at the PreCambrian-Cambrian boundary, and another 100-250 million year gap in the geological record at the Permian-Triassic boundary. Many hundreds to a thousand or more ice ages. With "global warming" in between the ice ages. Since we are NOW in between ice ages (and overdue), BY DEFINITION, we are in a global warming period. duh. The fear-mongers of the 60's were running around,like Chicken Little, sqwacking about ICE AGE. Then they flipped 180, because ice ages dont raise money, to global warming.
Even the "computer models",which can't even predict 1 or 2 years ahead,accurately, dont predict temps as high as the Medieval Warm. Which presents a serious problem for the "faithful". It was a lush,"boom" period. Then came the Little Ice Age, which really pushed people to the brink. Starvation,disease, ect. Better pray (oops,sorry boys) for global warming.
Yea,I know whats comin' next. So, I despise the ultra left wing socialist Democrats who goose-step with the envirofascists, I equally depise the Republican "I didnt KNOW I was far left wing 'til.....",AND the righwing/neocons who....are nothing more than shifty-eyed liberals.....to the left of .....me! I'm NOT a liar,as you suggest, just because I dont agree with you. I've read some of the published lit, now looking through source references Michael Crichton listed in his excellent book "State of Fear". You ought to read it boys.
I'm a ham radio operator. About '95 or '96,the ARRL publication,QST, published an article about some hams that went to Antartica to put up a radio tower. Back then, ham radio was an "essential" link for the researchers there,to their family, thru phone patches. Seems the 120' antenna tower,installed about mid-late 60s,was buried in ice & snow. Only 12-15',as I remember,was sticking out. They were hams,who were also communications/electronic experts, and volunteered their services. That much ice had accumulated during that period of time. hhhhmmmmmmmm. Global Warming? Antarctic melting away? hhhhhhmmmmm. Something wrong here. The "church" lost a "semibeliever".
Well,this is my first and last "step" into y'alls warm cozy steaming pile of pigS you've created for yerselves here on the Off Topic whatever. No critical thinking,no debate,no view allowed but the "party line". You guys....stink.

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OILDOG
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Oh, Ace, once again. Thanks for the links.

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Upside
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Why can't this forum have reasonable debates anymore, on any topic? Global warming? I've got an opinion on it, my feeling is that we have been in a long warming tread for many years which will probably be followed by a cooling period. At the same time I believe that mankind has managed to kick the warming trend up a notch or two, it's the price we pay for our current modern society. Maybe now we're starting to realize the errors of our ways and over the course of many, many years, it'll be reversed, not in our lifetime though. Anyway, that's kind of the middle ground and I'm sure it wont be accepted here by either of the two factions. So ya'll have fun bashing each others teeth in as best you can over a computer, just realize that fighting in a chat room isn't going to accomplish anything. Later everyone.
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glassman
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oildog, peer reviewed papers in paid journals like Science don't have links... only free news articles have links...

i posted this earlier in the week in another thread...
CO2 is a serious greenhouse gas... (so is methane, but that's another story)

burn ANY hydrocarbon? and you get C02.. it's pure and simple chemistry FACT...

it's a fact that CO2 levels are rising rapidly as result of us burning oil and coal...

we have done nothing to balance the equation..
in fact? we are cutting down more trees every day that would remove the C02...

people that don't believe this is a problem are simply refusing to face facts...

one volcano can produce as much detrimental gas as we do in a year.... volcanoes are one of the main causes for cooling and/or the warming trends... it depends on the type of volcano to determine which way it affects the weather..
there are others, like underwater lansdlides that dislodge the frozen methane laying all over the oceans floors...

it is a fact that never in history has our planet been subjected to kind of stress wee are putting it under right now...


all of these things TOGETHER would be an instant disaster... that's not an excuse for ignoring irresponsible behaviuor....

arctic ice and antarctic ice are melting, it's undeniable...

maybe we'll get "lucky" and a volcano will spew enough ash into the air to reflect the excess solar radiation back into space before it's too late? is that what you are hoping for?

your ham radio explanation is way too simplified... that's why i suggested that there needs to be much more understanding in the form of education... warmer areas over the ocean do evaporate more water which then gets to be rain or snow somewhere, but just because Denver is having blizzard after blizzard doesn't mean there's no global warming....

every gallon of gasoline burned produces more than 15 pounds of C02... it really is that simple... we measure gasoline consumption by the millions of gallons per day...... the C02 is going somewhere...

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glassman
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here's a link to the methane hydrate deposits...

http://www.nrl.navy.mil/content.php?P=02REVIEW112

(BTW? that's US Navy research)

they exceed all oil and coal reserves combined...

if these deposits were to be "released" by a warming of the "cold" ocean floor waters? we would have real problems...

some think an underwater landslide off of Norway 8000 years ago triggered SOME global warming..

as you can see from this flow chart? the explanation is complicated...

many factors are interdependant...

http://www.wbgu.de/wbgu_sn2006_en/wbgu_sn2006_en_voll_6.html
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*Mag*
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glass nice flow chart, but the flow charts of environmental issues of the 80's were much cooler; check out the acid dust, now thats scary!

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OILDOG
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Well,washed off. Hmmm. Try...one more "step".
First,a quote:
"We desparately need a nonpartisan,blinded funding mechanism to conduct research to determine appropriate policy. Scientists are only too aware whom they are working for. Those who fund research-whether a drug company,a government agency, or an environmental organization-always have a particular outcome in mind. Research funding is almost never open-ended or open-minded. Scientists know that continued funding depends on delivering the results the funder desire. As a result, environmental organization "studies" are every bit as biased and suspect as industry "studies". Government "studies" are similarly biased according to who is running the department or administration at the time. No faction should be given a free pass."
Michael Crichton "State of Fear"

Peer review? By fellow travelers?
Demmings problem, besides issues between himself and Snow, is he threatened the funding flow for the University. The Faculty "Board",held a kangaroo court, to censor him and try to get the ball rolling to strip tenure and fire him. They actually brought in two woman who "testified" he sexually harassed them. OUs legal counsel rushed to Prez Boren,informed him Demming had a very winnable civil rights case(bad). Only THEN did Boren tear himself away from his boy-toys and shut the academic freedom-loving profs down in their quest for political/religious purity.
Peer review aint what it used to be.
NASAs data shows almost no atmospheric temp rise. Certainly no sharp "hockeystick" rise like touted. So, CO2 rising? So? Extremely minor fraction of Earths atmosphere. Less than methane and argon.
I remember when we started "needing" catalytic converters on cars. The nitrous dioxide, sulfur ect ect ect, was gonna throw us into an ice age. Now look what they've done. We NEEDED that stuff to prevent glowbahl wahming. I know what I'm gonna do. Remove the cat-cons from my vehicles and....SAVE THE PLANET!!!! heh
I dont dispute CO2 levels have gone up,parts per million. Theres a lot of evidence to increased plant growth,crops,trees,rainforest. A good thing. But,a serious greenhouse gas? Doubtful, and NOT proven. Earth has MUCH higer concentration in the past. Far higer than we will ever see.

"it is a fact that never in history has our planet been subjected to kind of stress wee are putting it under right now... "

Really? I believe I mentioned the 500 million year gap at the PreCambrian/Cambrian boundary, the Permian/Triassic mass extinction(the biggest). Those are minor compared to what happened "way back". Volcanism on a scale we cant even imagine.


"one volcano can produce as much detrimental gas as we do in a year.... "

Agreed,sort of. When Penatubo erupted in the Philipines, scientists estimated it had producted more sulfur products and cfc's than man had produced....ever. Directly into the upper atmosphere,along with millions of tons of ash,ect. Saw an enviro on TV, redfaced,mad as H,nearly in tears: "set global warming back at least 20 years". hee And,we "seem" to going into a more active period of volcanism. That and increased solar radiation get "lost" in the "debate". No SUVs on the sun,eh?

"arctic ice and antarctic ice are melting, it's undeniable..."

Yep. Antarctic has been melting ...for the past 6000 years,and causing sea level to rise a small fraction...every year. But, data show it...cooling,the past 20 years or so. Ice accumulation increasing (anecdotal tower "proof") the southern hemi cooling too. All their GW data is NORTHERN hemi,specifically ... North America. Hey,the good ol' USA just may be saving Europes' azz... again!!! The Little Ice Age was FAR more devastating to "civilized" man.
But,whatever Amerika is doing pales in comparison to what China...will soon be doing. In just a decade or so,they will be the biggest polluter. The real stuff. They are bringing a new coal fired power plant online...every WEEK! And their "stuff" goes directly to Alaska and Canadian Arctic. Add in India.

"In the thirty-five-odd years since the environmental movement came into existence, science has undergone a major revolution. This revolution has brought new understanding of nonlinear dynamics,complex systems,chaos theory, catastrophe theory. It has transformed the way we think about evolution and ecology. Yet these no-longer-new ideas have hardly penetrated the thinking of environmental activists,which seems oddly fixed in the concepts and rhetoric of the 1970s."
Michael Crichton "State of Fear"

Not odd at all. Its about mmmmoooonnnneeeyyyyy.
Control,social engineering,power,a global government.

Since we're NOT in an ICE AGE, by definition our globe has been....warming. duh.Scientific fraud. Trillions will be wasted on it,which SHOULD be spent on cleaning up our oceans. STOP the dumping of sewage,overfishing,ect. But,what do you do with a world population clamoring for food? Let em die?

"I conclude that most environmental "principles" (such as sustainable development or the precautionary principle) have the effect of preserving the economic advantages of the West and thus constitute modern imperialism toward the developing world. It is a nice way of saying "We got ours and we dont want you to get yours, because you'll cause too much pollution."
Michael Crichton "State of Fear"

Bright guy. Gets right to the "heart" of envirofascists,"modern" limosine liberals,Luddites,ect.
Also refers to man as "the nasty little ape". Like I said,bright guy.
YOU.. seem to want to "discuss"...maybe I'll be back. And...I went to the "good" school,OSU, Geology,paleo (dont ask how I got in the 'patch),aggie,I bleed orange..Go 'Pokes!
CUL

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OILDOG
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Have'nt heard anything about the '80s boogyman,acid rain,in a long time. Still around?

Glass,good reads. But, they are talking thousands of years. Worst case...hundreds to a thousand. I think the "nasty little ape" will find a way,or not. Doesnt matter to Gaia,really. Seen species come,seen 'em go. One scientist has already proposed a solution. Remember the Ice Age scare of the 50s 60s and 70s due to Sulfuric acid, I believe? Reflects sunlight back into space,causing cooling. Solar powered high altitude unmanned aircraft,Global Hawk, misting sulphuric acid droplets,reflect sunlight back, problem solved. Or,big solar umbrella,out beyond the moons orbit.Or,adjust the moons speed and orbit for cooling eclipses during daylight.
Anyway,all will be moot if the Moslems get nukes. They'll use them. They don't care,with 72 virgins waiting. Where DOES Allah get all those virgins? Sure would'nt find enough in the USA to cover the martyrs we've made in Iraq! heh jk

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It takes a lot of attaboys to make up for an aww chit

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turbokid
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heres the bout with global warming we are experiencing out west..
[Big Grin]
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"Gentleman, you have come sixty days too late. The depression is over."
Herbert Hoover 1930

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The Bigfoot
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You want to understand the environment?

Go down to Louisiana where they have lost coastal breakers the size of the state of Maryland in the last 50 years due to the removal of the swamp lands. Result? The whole area is both sinking and sliding into the Gulf of Mexico and they have lost the ability to absorb storm surge by close to 60%.

Go to Alaska and see the Polar Bears wandering into town because their ice shelves that they depend on to fish are falling into the sea.

Go to Venice, Italy and see the water table slowly rising and threatening to break over the canals and flood.

Look back in the weather records for the last 10 years and see just how many '100 year' river floods and "storms of the century" we have had.

Ask a scientist how many species of frog (who are sensitive to environmental conditions due to their amphibious physiology) have been placed on the threatened or endangered list.

Ask Jacque Custo's son how many coral reefs are beginning to die out because of rising ocean temperatures. (I can give you the website of his resort in Fiji if you want. Make it a vacation AND a learning experience.)

And for God's sake, just go and watch Al Gore's movie. You don't have to like him but he shows very plainly how we have been affecting our climate for the last couple hundred years and how our interference is growing rapidly and compounding with interest.

What is it going to take before people start to admit that allowing complacence to lead us to inaction on this issue is going to alter the state of the world in the near future?

Maybe we ARE only part of the problem and that it would happen anyway. So What!? There is a big difference between hitting a wall at 20mph and hitting it at 60mph.

If anyone wants to gamble with their own life, I really don't care. If that's what you want to do and be damned the consequences that's fine with me. But this is the whole world we are talking about and an issue that is so big and complex we can only guess at what the outcomes would be which means your gamble is not only affecting your own life but everyone else's as well.

In this stock Mother Nature is the ultimate Market Maker. You are All IN and so is your family and there is no selling out. It is only win or lose and any time you play against a Market Maker...you lose.

The Bigfoot

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bond006
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Just remeber the is no place else to go earth is ours and we have one battle that will decide if we win the war or not.

My advice is don't take the chance that you may be wrong.

Most all of science says we are warming up and changing the worldfor the worst do something now.

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bdgee
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OILDOG,

I don't know where or when you were submitted for education (or if you were), but you better get revacinated....it didn't take.

Be aware, though, if you approach the opportunity with the abuses of reason and logic you are displaying here, it will fail again.

(A software "bot" can cut and paste voluminous verbage on a subject without any intellegence or understanding of even what it is doing, let alone what it is posting about or its intricacies and inferences.)

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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by OILDOG:
NASAs data shows almost no atmospheric temp rise. Certainly no sharp "hockeystick" rise like touted. So, CO2 rising? So? Extremely minor fraction of Earths atmosphere. Less than methane and argon.

i, uh, have to take issue with you on that one....

there was this liar hired by Bush that tweaked Nasa's dataflow...

and? C02 is not the most serious as i said, methane is worse.. and we've already discovered that it only takes a 2 degree change in the lowest level of waters in the ocean to release tons of it...

the truth is? the more you know about how the ecosystem works? the more you realise that we are living on knife edge and have always been.. thats not an excuse to ignore the situation. saying money has been wasted in research is to show a poor understanding of economics... today? there is more cash than there ever was just waiting to be invested in anything and everything....

A Young Bush Appointee Resigns His Post at NASA

Article Tools Sponsored By
By ANDREW C. REVKIN
Published: February 8, 2006

George C. Deutsch, the young presidential appointee at NASA who told public affairs workers to limit reporters' access to a top climate scientist and told a Web designer to add the word "theory" at every mention of the Big Bang, resigned yesterday, agency officials said.
Skip to next paragraph
Related Climate Expert Says NASA Tried to Silence Him (Jan. 29, 2006)

Lawmaker Condemns NASA Over Scientist's Accusations of Censorship (Jan. 31, 2006)

NASA Chief Backs Agency Openness (Feb. 4, 2006)

Mr. Deutsch's resignation came on the same day that officials at Texas A&M University confirmed that he did not graduate from there, as his résumé on file at the agency asserted.

Officials at NASA headquarters declined to discuss the reason for the resignation.

"Under NASA policy, it is inappropriate to discuss personnel matters," said Dean Acosta, the deputy assistant administrator for public affairs and Mr. Deutsch's boss.


just another liar hired by Bush and Cheney


i read Crichton's State of Fear when the ink was still wet.... i have NEXT sitting under two other books in line to be read right now.

i think you missed his main point...

it was NOT that global warming is a myth,.. it was about how the battle for money twists every player... even social activists have to feed clothe and educate their families... [Roll Eyes]

and? they are fighting people with real money behind them....

Tolkein ALSO wrote about that, symbolically.

while i enjoy Crichton? nearly everything he writes is written by formula, and he reads Science too...

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turbokid
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i'm up in the air about global warming. it seems to me that the earth has been warming for a good long while. where i come from, Utah, there used to be a lake that spanned almost the entire state, im sure you've heard of it Lake bonneville. It existed some 16,000 years ago and due to warming in the area has evaporated down to what is now the great salt lake.
http://www.bonneville-trail.org/geology.htm
this was long before factories and cars were used to emit large amounts of greenhouse gasses.
Also what brought us out of the last ice age? and what put us in the one before it?
http://culter.colorado.edu:1030/~saelias/glacier.html
everything moves in cycles and it seems like we are in a warming cycle currently. Thats not to say that human greenhouse gas emissions are not having an effect but i think on a large scale its only part of the current situation.
this was a good read about past ice ages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Age

nowthen on the other hand. one of the sigle most compelling arguements for the existance of human induced global warming is that last year exxon spent 15.7 million dollars trying to debunk global warming. [Smile]
i dont know guys i think we play a part but im not all that sure that its total human caused. I think we are lucky to have a prolonged period of rather "nice" temperatures on earth because earth has been much colder, and much hotter than it is now(several times) and 90% of the species that ever lived on this planet are dead. We're just another link in the chain.

i'll post more later gotta go to work.
very interesting discussion.
-turbo

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bdgee
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Lake Bonnevile did not disappear du to co2 induced warming, but to plate uplifting. The same is true of the salt flats of West Texas and New Mexico. (Even earlier, there was a great inlet of the atlantic ocean that reached through Texas, Oklahoma, and Colorado into Wyoming. It did not "dry up" due to warming but due to plate shifting and lifting.)

It is a mistake to attempt to seek analogs within geologic structure and time and dismiss global warming as just another one of "those", that is, as a part of a geologic reality that is beyond human influence.

We can trace the human partiucipation and contribution to the causes of this warming cycle and we can measure (not directly, but just as accurately) the ingredients and discover the causes of those of 16000 years ago and much much earlier and have thereby proved that humans did not participate in the causes of warming cycles then.

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OILDOG
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Glass:
A Young Bush Appointee Resigns His Post at NASA

So?? Bush replaced Clintons liars with his own,and Clinton replaced GHW Bushs with his and on and on...........!!!! It called...politics. And..that says nothing about him ALTERING data, just....access.

Bigfoot-- "And for God's sake, just go and watch Al Gore's movie."

Your kidding!!! The dumber of the Moron Twins??
Dumb at least "achieved" an MBA. Dumber....nada.
I'll get around to it....someday...for laffs.
A "voice-over celebrity" reading a script about a subject he can't comprehend. Just another Chicken Little,but not nearly as bright. Bush is vastly underrated by his political enemies. Gore is vastly overrated by his followers (Gore-ons).
I equate AlGores "effort" with Dan Rathers "Guns of Autumn". POS
[Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]
Glass,Crichton made his point very clear. Read the "authors message" again. We are in a NATURAL warming trend. Sea level has been rising, NATURALLY, for 6000' years. The Little Ice Age ended about 1850, just a little over 150 years ago. Natural cycles,warming/cooling. And...that stuff has to melt and go SOMEWHERE. And,all during that time,temps fluctuated,like a sine wave. Are you interested that the Medieval Warm was a temp peak,higher than predicted by the CCMs for this GW,that was immediately followed by a minimum,the Little Ice Age? The Warm is a big big problem for the Chikin Litles!!!Interesting that they have to eliminate it, cook the books, to get a temp median going...up.
The computer models are worthless. Garbage in,garbage out. Take the last Hurrican season. The weather heads started following the Canadian model,because it "seemed" to be more accurate. Guess if you have ENOUGH models, one is likely to be right. Next year it may be the American model,or the Brits, or French. Who knows? They sure dont. Think a casino will let you place a bet,and let you roll a dozen pairs of dice...til you get the result you WANT? taint likely.

But,heres my real problem. If the data is good, the theory "Man is the Cause" real, why cook the books. Why use bogus examples like Bigfoots "suggestion" about Venice? Everytime a hurrican,tornado,drought,rain,wind,no wind...occurs, its because we drive SUVs,use natural gas,"rape" the planet???
Bigfoot: Venice is sssiiiinnnkkkkinnng!! It built in a marshy lagoon.

Sinking of Venice
High water in Venice. Venice and surroundings in false colour, from TERRA satellite. The picture is oriented with North at the top.The buildings of Venice are constructed on closely spaced wood piles (under water, in the absence of oxygen, wood does not decay) which penetrate alternating layers of clay and sand. Wood for piles was cut in the most western part of todays Slovenia, resulting in the barren land called Karst. Most of these piles are still intact after centuries of submersion. The foundations rest on the piles, and buildings of brick or stone sit above these footings. The buildings are often threatened by flood tides pushing in from the Adriatic between autumn and early spring.

Six hundred years ago, Venetians protected themselves from land-based attacks by diverting all the major rivers flowing into the lagoon and thus preventing sediment from filling the area around the city. This created an ever-deeper lagoon environment.

During the 20th century, when many artesian wells were sunk into the periphery of the lagoon to draw water for local industry, Venice began to subside. It was realised that extraction of the aquifer was the cause. This sinking process has slowed markedly since artesian wells were banned in the 1960s. However, the city is still threatened by more frequent low-level floods (so-called Acqua alta, "high water") that creep to a height of several centimeters over its quays, regularly following certain tides. In many old houses the former staircases used by people to unload goods are now flooded, rendering the former ground floor uninhabitable. Thus, many Venetians resorted to moving up to the upper floors and continuing with their lives.

Some recent studies have suggested that the city is no longer sinking [citation needed], but this is not yet certain; therefore, a state of alert has not been revoked. In May 2003 the Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi inaugurated the MOSE project (Modulo Sperimentale Elettromeccanico), an experimental model for evaluating the performance of inflatable gates; the idea is to lay a series of 79 inflatable pontoons across the sea bed at the three entrances to the lagoon. When tides are predicted to rise above 110 centimetres, the pontoons will be filled with air and block the incoming water from the Adriatic sea. This challenging engineering work is due to be completed by 2011.

Some experts say that the best way to protect Venice is to physically lift the City to a greater height above sea level - by pumping water into the soil underneath the city. This way, some hope, it could rise above sea levels, protecting it for hundreds of years, and eventually the MOSE project may not be necessary (it will, controversially, alter the tidal patterns in the lagoon, damaging some wildlife). A further point about the "lifting" system would be that it would be permanent - the MOSE Project is, by its very nature, a temporary system: it is expected to protect Venice for "only" 100 years.

Check yer facts,Chikin..er,Big.
Anyway,global warming has been ongoing since the last iceage,and will continue...until the next.
Trying to equate land use problems with Global Warming Caused by Man,is bogus. Clearing coastal marshes and development along the Gulf Coast, and building New Orleans on a sinkhole has nothing to do with global warming,directly. Or building homes in flood plains. Its just stupid.

Look,we need to be frugal,and sensible with our land,water,air,all of it. But we cant do that with cooked data,cherry-picking data,scare tactics,ect. One of the "upsides" to all this is ....we may actually learn how to "control" the atmosphere...sort of. We are going to need to in the next century or two, to defeat the NATURAL cycles of the Earth. But we will NEVER be able to control the Suns heat output,unusual periods of high sunspots,the earths wobbly orbit. All are BIG factors,never discussed. No money in it.
Need some sleep. CUL
[Smile]

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turbokid
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i dont want to get into an arguement buddy but lake bonneville did not disappear due to plate uplifting. it is from warmer tempuratures and evaporation. thats why the salt flats are a dry desert now because it got hotter.
taken directly from the UGS..
quote:
"After the Lake Bonneville flood, the Great Basin gradually became warmer and drier. Lake Bonneville began to shrink due to increased evaporation"
quoted from here.
http://www.ugs.state.ut.us/online/PI-39/pi39pg03.htm
heres some more good reading. there is some mention about the lake forming from increased rain and ice melting from the previous ice age after it started warming up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Bonneville

and to show that i agree with you about human co2 emissions heres a cool chart showing the increase in c02 since the industrial revolution. thats a big spike.

 -

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glassman
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oildog? the guy falsified his DEGREE... before he even got the job...

Crichton's point was they ALL twist the data....

i've pointed you to the facts... as you say:

we need to be frugal,and sensible with our land,water,air,all of i we agree..

if you don't give people a reason to act? they WON'T.. period..

global warming is not a myth and the more we add to it? the worse it'll be.... are we the total cause? of course not.. will WE be the straw that breaks the camels back? you bet....

lemme tell you about how much freshwater fish we are NOT allowed to eat here in the Missississippi Delta.....the farmers say there's no need to worry about pesticides etc. etc. same old story...

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OILDOG
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Glass: Never said global warming is a myth. Quite the opposite. Man as THE CAUSE? Thats the problem. Our "activities" and greenhouse gases could very well have staved off a longer Little Ice Age,or THE BIG ONE. GW is NOT necessarily..bad. And for certain the "weather heads" dont know.
GOT to get some sleep!!! bye

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bdgee
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turbokid,

Note the word "global" within the term "global warming. It refers to the climate of the entire world all at once, not to just the local climate in the area of Lake Bonneville.

The reason that lake dried up WAS NOT because there was a warmer global climate, but because its location withing the existing climate was in a warmer "local" environment

Global warming IS NOT the condition of some isolated local lake or snow field or woodland, but a global situation. Indeed, in a globally heated climate, there will certainly be localized areas (some quite large) that will be far colder than those same locations were in the climate before. The same can be said of wet or dry local areas.

In matters such as global climates, one can point to a localized exception to the rule does not say the rule is false, much as finding a single atom of pure carbon in the exaust of an automobile does not discount the fact that the engine "burned the carbon in the gasoline and exausted carbon dioxide and carbon monoxicde".

What did or did not cause Lake Bonneville to dry up has nothing to do with global warming, just like the 0.2 - 0.3 percent of pure unburned hydrocarbon in your cars exaust does not demonstrate that the gasoline that was injected into the cylinders of your car did not generate a combustion condition.

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glassman
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oildog: another point about Crichton, as i sadi? i read (almost) all of his books, (i skipped his biographical one)
BUT?

he's a very very "commercial" writer. he always has been. is that bad? no, but i think it does say something about his integrity.

i think he is for sale, and i disagree with many of his premises. the fact that he popularizes Science (caps intended) is a good thing. However? His basic formula for examining the ethics and the human morality of the problems is not even up to Tolkeins level. I put him on a level with Edgar Rice Burroughs. Was Tarzan an animal with a knife?

It's funny how he portrayed the "promoter" in Jurassic Park as brilliant capitalist and morally bankrupt.
( inside joke? the T Rex and the Raptors (very late)are from the Cretaceous, not the Jurassic, i often wonder why Crichton does these misidentifications. it's almost as if he is laughing at the readers IMO)

Then he turns around critisizes the whole scientific community in State of Fear. Sadly? The scientific community is reduced to begging in the current granting system we have. Just trying to finding funding can mean having all of your ideas stolen by thieves thru the peer review process. Good scientists with fresh concepts are forced to hide them behind smoke and mirrors. Otherwise, they are stolen along with the funding.

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IWISHIHAD
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Scientists say 2007 may be warmest yet

By RAPHAEL G. SATTER
Associated Press Writer

Appearing in the Orange County Register





















LONDON (AP) -- Deepening drought in Australia. Stronger typhoons in Asia. Floods in Latin America. British climate scientists predict that a resurgent El Nino climate trend combined with higher levels of greenhouse gases could touch off a fresh round of ecological disasters - and make 2007 the world's hottest year on record.

"Even a moderate (El Nino) warming event is enough to push the global temperatures over the top," said Phil Jones, director of the Climatic Research unit at the University of East Anglia.

The warmest year on record is 1998, when the average global temperature was 1.2 degrees Fahrenheit higher than the long-term average of 57 degrees. Though such a change appears small, incremental differences can, for example, add to the ferocity of storms by evaporating more steam off the ocean.

There is a 60 percent chance that the average global temperature for 2007 will match or break the record, Britain's Meteorological Office said Thursday. The consequences of the high temperatures could be felt worldwide.

El Nino, which is now under way in the Pacific Ocean and is expected to last until May, occurs irregularly. But when it does, winters in Southeast Asia tend to become milder, summers in Australia get drier, and Pacific storms can be more intense. The U.N.'s Food Aid Organization has warned that rising temperatures could wreak agricultural havoc.

In Australia, which is struggling through its worst drought on record, the impact on farmers could be devastating. The country has already registered its smallest wheat harvest in a decade, food prices are rising, and severe water restrictions have put thousands of farmers at risk of bankruptcy.

In other cases, El Nino's effects are more ambiguous. Rains linked to the phenomenon led to bumper crops in Argentina in 1998, but floods elsewhere in Latin America devastated subsistence farmers.

El Nino also can do some good. It tends to take the punch out of the Atlantic hurricane season by generating crosswinds that can rip the storms apart - good news for Florida's orange growers, for example.

"The short-term effects of global warming on crop production are very uneven," said Daniel Hillel, a researcher at Columbia University's Center for Climate Systems Research. "I warn against making definitive predictions regarding any one season's weather."

What is clear is that the cumulative effect of El Nino and global warming are taking the Earth's temperatures to record heights.

"El Nino is an independent variable," Jones said. "But the underlying trends in the warming of the Earth is almost certainly a result of the release of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere."

Another more immediate effect of the rising temperatures may be political.

Australian Prime Minister John Howard is already under fire for refusing to link his country's drought to global warming. In Britain, Friends of the Earth campaign director Mike Childs said the weather service's 2007 prediction "underlined the gap between the government's rhetoric and action."

Other environmental groups said the new report added weight to the movement to control greenhouse gases.

It came a day after the weather service reported that 2006 had been Britain's warmest year since 1659, and three months after Sir Nicholas Stern, a senior government economist, estimated that the effects of climate change could eventually cost nations 5 percent to 20 percent of global gross domestic product each year.

Figures for 2006 are not yet complete, but the weather service said temperatures were high enough to rank among the top 10 hottest years on record.

"The evidence that we're doing something very dangerous with the climate is now amassing," said Campaign against Climate Change coordinator Philip Thornhill.

"We need to put the energy and priority (into climate change) that is being put into a war effort," he said. "It's a political struggle to get action done - and these reports help."
_________________________________________________


Scientists say oil company misinforms public on global warming
The Associated Press
WASHINGTON - ExxonMobil Corp. gave $16 million to 43 ideological groups between 1998 and 2005 in an effort to mislead the public by discrediting the science behind global warming, the Union of Concerned Scientists asserted Wednesday.

The report by the advocacy group mirrors similar claims by Britain's leading scientific academy. Last September, The Royal Society wrote the oil company asking it to halt support for groups that "misrepresented the science of climate change."

Many scientists say carbon dioxide and other heat-trapping gases from tailpipes and smokestacks are warming the atmosphere like a greenhouse, melting Arctic sea ice and alpine glaciers and disturbing the lives of animals and plants.

ExxonMobil called the scientists' report Wednesday "yet another attempt to smear our name and confuse the discussion of the serious issue of CO2 emissions and global climate change."

ExxonMobil lists on its Web site nearly $133 million in 2005 contributions globally, including $6.8 million for "public information and policy research" distributed to more than 140 think tanks, universities, foundations, associations and other groups. Some of those have publicly disputed any link between greenhouse gas emissions and global warming.

Alden Meyer, the Union of Concerned Scientists' strategy and policy director, said in a teleconference that ExxonMobil based its tactics on those of tobacco companies, spreading uncertainty by misrepresenting peer-reviewed scientific studies or emphasizing only selected facts.

Dr. James McCarthy, a professor at Harvard University, said the company has sought to "create the illusion of a vigorous debate" about global warming.

The company said its financial support doesn't mean control over any group's views.

"We find some of them persuasive and enlightening, and some not," ExxonMobil spokesman Dave Gardner said. "But there is value in the debate they prompt if it can lead to better informed and more optimal public policy decisions."

He said the company believes that despite many scientific uncertainties, the risk that greenhouse gas emissions may have serious environmental effects justifies taking action to limit them
_________________________________________________

Just reading every one's opinion on this thread, some good views from both sides. The big thing is how we make a change if we believe it is affecting our environment? It sounds easy and in a sense it is, but Hugh masses of people are involved so that's the hard part. I think it has to be made easy for the majority and hopefully cheaper at the pump this would make the transition much simpler, changing peoples habits and rituals is not an easy task.

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The Bigfoot
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OilDog, I know my facts.

You have correctly stated that Venice is sinking. However, you are incorrect in taking that as evidence that it means the surrounding waters are not rising. Here is an excerpt from a Science News article if you would like to learn.

quote:
Ammerman and his colleagues have spent the past decade trying to uncover the early archaeological levels in the lagoon. At three sites in Venice, and on two nearby islands, they used carbon-14 techniques to date buried structures. By measuring the position of these objects relative to current water levels, the researchers could estimate how quickly the city has sunk since its founding.

In a related effort, Charles E. McClennen, a marine geologist at Colgate, has traced the history of the lagoon itself by using sonar to penetrate its sedimentary layers. The lagoon started to form 6,000 years ago, and the water has risen 5 m since then , he determined.
In the June ANTIQUITY, the researchers combine their evidence to estimate how rates of sea level rise have changed over time. For the first 4,000 years after the birth of the lagoon, the water surface at the site of Venice rose relatively slowly, at a rate of 7 centimeters per century.
Around 400 A.D., people moved into the lagoon and settled on marginal marshgrass islands, which flooded during the highest tides. To stay above water, these pioneers built up the islands with boatloads of sand. Later, Venetians started driving innumerable wooden piles down into the sediment, forming level foundations on which to build the growing city. One existing church, according to records, Rests on 1.1 million of these timbers.
Such efforts sparked a never-ending war with the water. As a result of the added weight on the islands, they began to sink and local water levels started increasing faster than before. From 400 A.D. until the end of the 1800s, the sea rose at about 13 cm per century, report the scientists.
This century, the rate jumped even further. Tide-gauge records indicate that sea level at Venice has risen 25 cm, driven in part by the water extraction and the global sea level rise spurred by increasing worldwide temperatures. As the archaeological data show, early residents fought back by continually building up the ground surface, covering over earlier levels of the city, says Ammerman.
Daniel J. Stanley, a coastal geologist with the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D.C., compares Venice to a man standing in a swimming pool. "His feet are embedded in lead and the water level in the pool is rising and it's already to his nose. He better not make any waves," says Stanley.

Conservative estimates of greenhouse warming suggest that global sea levels will climb between 38 and 55 cm by the end of the next century. "That doesn't augur well for the city of Venice," says Stanley.

Science News, July 24, 1999 by Richard Monastersky



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