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The Bigfoot
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Oh, two other things...

I actually agree with you on one point. It is stupid to build in flood planes and areas that are unstable at this point in time. I think insurance companies are going to lead the way for reform on that issue as they are the ones who have to pay when something happens. I do think historic cities such as Venice and New Orleans are worth attempting to save if we can but they should be the exception, not the norm.

On another note, look at the dates of Gore's books on the subject. He has been writing and working with researchers regarding the environment since before he became the V.P.

Agreed he isn't the best poster-child for the subject but he does know what he is talking about.

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BooDog
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in the 70's here today in virginia. should be snow. hardly even had 1 good frost yet - now that is unusual. a trend that hasn't been seen since the 1800's. I like winter - go natural so my ethenol stocks can start making some freekin money!

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a surfer
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quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
Oh, two other things...

I actually agree with you on one point. It is stupid to build in flood planes and areas that are unstable at this point in time. I think insurance companies are going to lead the way for reform on that issue as they are the ones who have to pay when something happens. I do think historic cities such as Venice and New Orleans are worth attempting to save if we can but they should be the exception, not the norm.

On another note, look at the dates of Gore's books on the subject. He has been writing and working with researchers regarding the environment since before he became the V.P.

Agreed he isn't the best poster-child for the subject but he does know what he is talking about.

My insurance doubled this past year to over 9 grand!!!! Naples Fl.

I just watched a show on Easter island. very interesting how as the population grew they used up all their resources. wood etc.
Then internal combustion thereafter. War etc.

They compared the island to our earth.

My favorite class in college was ecology of man. LOL

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OILDOG
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Glass said:"if you don't give people a reason to act? they WON'T.. period.."
So,its ok to lie,deceive,cherry-pick your data and your greenhouse gas,create "the sky is falling" alarm,because that's the only way the "little people" (Hillarys "affectionate" term for us) wont fall for envirochurch dogma (or contribute billions of loot),otherwise. The "ends justify the means"??? Exactly what you claim...Bush did!!!! How Clintonesqe!!!lmao

Glass said:"will WE be the straw that breaks the camels back? you bet...."
NOT. Gaia....is crapping in our cornflakes. We'll get to that in a bit. [Razz]

Crichton a "commercial writer"? ALL writers are commercial,in the end.
"For sale". Hard to swallow Glass. The man's a mega-millionaire. Movies,books,TV series (ER).
Bought by the boogey man..BIG OIL? Nnnaaaa. Same reason. He's rich.
"State of Fear" was about his thoughts,and probably frustration with pre-paid "scientists".
Read the Authors Message...again.
T-Rex and Raptors? Yea, I laughed too. "Cretaceous Park" sings...for me.
"State of Fear" probably wont be a movie,unless Crichton does it himself. Not politically correct. Hollyweird would change it..completely.. to fit dogma.

Glass said: "Just trying to finding funding can mean having all of your ideas stolen by thieves thru the peer review process. Good scientists with fresh concepts are forced to hide them behind smoke and mirrors. Otherwise, they are stolen along with the funding."

So, Crichton is..right. "Good" scientists "have" to lie,decieve...and produce paid-for results. And the bad ones...even worse. "the ends justify the means" principle....again. [Frown]
The "Universities" want politically correct profs that wont endanger funding and donations.
Hence Demmings problems at OU with Snow. It got personal...rumored .. "your just a meteorologist(Snow) without the integrity or capacity to comprehend.......". Poor judgement..probably. Blunt...definitely. I like him. [Big Grin] But, seems out of character. He's very professional. Same cant be said of Snow..from what I hear,and his actions.

Some questions:
1)Why pick CO2,the least significant gas at .04% A tiny fraction behind methane and water vapor. Water vapor,at 1-4%,and cloud cover blankets are far more significant. Methane takes around 17 years to oxidize in the atmosphere,and the worlds largest producer,next to the oceans,are termites. CO2 takes 8 years to be COMPLETELY scrubbed. If all life,including plants which give it off at night,would hold their breath for 8 years...it would be completely...gone. Why CO2? Care to guess?
3)Why are all the fears,data,models only about the....Northern Hemi?
4)Why are they trying to "get rid of" the Medieval Warm? Article headline "DID THE MEDIEVAL WARM REALLY HAPPEN?"
(Been reading the IPCC reports,check the links)
5)Why dont they ever SAY we've been in global warming for 6000 years, sea levels rising, glaciers and ice melting? Global Warming is by NATURAL causes.
6)Why wont they SAY (see IPCC report)that it will be MANY hundreds of years to thousands,at the higher rates predicted. 99% of the worlds ice is in the Greenland Ice Cap and Antarctica. The vast bulk is in Antartica,more than GIC and glaciers...combined. IPCC says it will take at least 1500 years to melt the Greenland Ice Cap at the higher temps,Antarctica MUCH longer.(And the Southern Hemi is...cooling. [Eek!] )
7)Why do they act like,or filter out,variations in the insolation from the Sun,sunspot activity,and heat output from "Gaia" itself,as if it doesnt matter? hhhhmmmm?

wwwwhhhhheeeewwwww!!! Barely scratched the surface.Need a break. More later.Big,sorry,too much to tackle at once. Later. wwwoooooofff!

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bdgee
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99% of the world's coral reefs are already dying.

When they are gone, most of the sea life that isn't deep stuff goes with them.

That's a significat portion of the worldwide human diet gone forever.

And that isn't something that will take another hundred or thousand years to happen. IT ALREADY IS!

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OILDOG
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99%??? You sure?? Sounds like a stretch to me! I've never read a number that high! Got a link?

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bdgee
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Yes!

Go look it up yourself. But be warned, you won't find it in that slanted grab bag of misquotes and faulty reasoning you have been fostering on us.

Read "Science". It's in there several times in the alst few years.

Try some respectable references. Appropriate references for science are not internet links and are NOT found outside of refereed schollarly scientific journals.

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OILDOG
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Well,gee beedg. Some of the stuff Ive been finding ARE abstracts and articles from Science,and others. So,if those same articles are on the web,their not repectable? Tainted,bogus? Saaaay, thats good to know. tnx

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bdgee
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"Well,gee beedg. Some of the stuff Ive been finding ARE abstracts and articles from Science,and others."

Yes. And generally taken out of context and misquoted and altered.

You may, among those you find on the net, find some supposedly written by me. There are papers I never authorized to be there, did not participate in putting there, and, I point out, that some have been altered, without my permission, from the original papers I did write and publised in appropriate journals.

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Ace of Spades
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Bush kills more than Terrorists...
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bdgee
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Agreed, Ace.....many many more....
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OILDOG
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Agreed. The more terrorists killed,the better.
IF we infidels survive the Moslem Abomb,GWCBM and dying reefs and CO2 will be.....moot!

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bdgee
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I'd sort of like to have a solid and unquestionable definition of what is meant by "terrorist" myself, before being forced to answer any question as to whether or not they are better dead.
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bdgee
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Like, think about it man......

Supposed we discovered that Catherine Zeta-Jones was a raging bomb making Jew hater.

I might prefer to hold her prisoner and not kill her.

Darn right, "hold" that chick....heh heh heh....

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OILDOG
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Anyone that disagrees with you? Or can think for themselves?

Seriously tho, what discipline/journals did you pub?

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glassman
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OK, oil-dog.. i re-read the authors note, i find nothing in there to change my former opinions.. he even ends it with a sarcastic remark:
"Everybody has an agenda except me"


he clearly states that (in his opinion) nobody knows if man is causing any global warming or not... however? this book is copyrighted in '04, so theres about as much new data available from when he was putting this book together as there was available when he wrote it.. knowledge is like that, it's exponential...


he also says clearly that we desperately need a non-partisan blinded impartial science funding mechanism... i think that is what i was pointing out too... and i think that really is the point of the book..he says we have a serious problem we need to study...

i gave you some links to data about the methane hydrates on the ocean floor... that's where (IMO) our salvation, or our doom lies... on the dark, cold floor of the
ocean in the form of methane ice crystals...

i suggest that we have much less than 50 years to "get it right"... and i also dug up an old paper on CO2 from the ice core samples at Vostok...
Trends
There is a close correlation between Antarctic temperature and atmospheric concentrations of CO2 (Barnola et al. 1987). The extension of the Vostok CO2 record shows that the main trends of CO2 are similar for each glacial cycle. Major transitions from the lowest to the highest values are associated with glacial-interglacial transitions. During these transitions, the atmospheric concentrations of CO2 rises from 180 to 280-300 ppmv (Petit et al. 1999). The extension of the Vostok CO2 record shows the present-day levels of CO2 are unprecedented during the past 420 kyr. Pre-industrial Holocene levels (~280 ppmv) are found during all interglacials, with the highest values (~300 ppmv) found approximately 323 kyr BP. When the Vostok ice core data were compared with other ice core data (Delmas et al. 1980; Neftel et al. 1982) for the past 30,000 - 40,000 years, good agreement was found between the records: all show low CO2 values [~200 parts per million by volume (ppmv)] during the Last Glacial Maximum and increased atmospheric CO2 concentrations associated with the glacial-Holocene transition. According to Barnola et al. (1991) and Petit et al. (1999) these measurements indicate that, at the beginning of the deglaciations, the CO2 increase either was in phase or lagged by less than ~1000 years with respect to the Antarctic temperature, whereas it clearly lagged behind the temperature at the onset of the glaciations.


http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/vostok.htm

essentially? CO2 is a serious greenhouse gas and we are most definitely producing over 19 pounds of CO2 for every gallon of gasoline burned...

the US avg is 464 gallons per year.. thats uh 4 tons of CO2 per US citizen per year.... or lessee? thats 2,400,000,000,000 pounds of CO2 we produce from just gasoline that would NOT be there if we were not using gasoline...
BTW? i don't think we need to stop using gasoline completely... just cut it by 50 to 60%... and real soon... that would also put the mid-east oil people in a world of hurt too...

and? your plant thingy?you referred to release of C02 at night by plants? about them rereleasing their C02 at night? that's more disengenuousnous:

plants get almost all of their carbon from C02 in the air..in other words? what you see? came from CO2..

that re-relaese is insignificant to say the least....it is very inefficient, and it in no way comes close to re-releasing all or even most of the CO2 it takes in under photosynthesis...

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The Bigfoot
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That's true Glass.

Vegetation fixes more CO2 then it ever lets off unless it is burned. Then it releases what it had fixed as it grew.

That's why folks want to find ways to produce fuels from cellulose like switchgrass. It would basicaly be greenhouse gas neutral.

http://www.harvestcleanenergy.org/enews/enews_0505/enews_0505_Cellulosic_Ethanol .htm

BF

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Gordon Bennett
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Global Warming Deniers: Can't live with 'em; can't live with 'em!

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"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a
little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

- Benjamin Franklin

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bond006
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It is just amazing in our world how profit comes before the well being of billions of people.

By now our vehicles should be running on 50% less fuel than they are.
Our homes should be heated and cooled with 50% less fuel and most of our electrcity should be nuclear energy.

Big oil has been the constant obstruction to this just from the main function of lobbist and proaganda.

It started with Regan killing the Carter energy bill.

I am not really suprised when profits can be as high as 10billion plus per quater think of that if you were at the top of the food chain and the rabble wanted you to give up a good chunck of that or all . What would most businessmen do.

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The Bigfoot
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I think nuclear energy stall out on its own due to its own undesirable waste product.

We STILL don't have a secure place to dispose of these materials.

I do agree though that the top of the mountain is very stubborn on accepting anything that could potentially shake their place on the ladder of wealth.

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bond006
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Things will have to change or we will not exsits anymore the world is moving foward and we cannot stop that movement it is human nature. We all can't live on the earth if the 3rd world starts to consume like we do with the same methods. And no matter how we try we can't hold the world back nobody can.

We have chose for our selves the role of economic leader we should be changing and setting examples sellig the world new technologies in energy production. But that is not the way the world works business exist for massive consumption and wants to duplicate that economic modle all over it makes them wealthy even if at this point it is self destructive. And most likly won't change until all the easy to get fossil fules are havested then it will slowly change. Until then we will see more destruction of the ecology of the planet and war.

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bond006
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If you are not giving the native of the Amozon away to cook and keep warm he or she have no alternative but to burn the rain forest and use it to build shelter.

Most people just say they should not do that

Isn't that nice, how do they just stop,We get mad if any body suggest that we just curb over indulgence let alone give up shelter and cooking but we are quick to all point fingers at the less fortunate it is not as profitable as just selling a barrel of oil, and telling anybody who thinks and has an opinion,that if you don't like pollution I will sell you a shovel and you can get off your lazy ass and clean it up,whinner.

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bond006
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Just think where we would have been today had we kept all the tax advantages that Carter had set in place for solar and wind power alone i remember all the new businesses that were starting to blossom and all the research that was coming out of thoes policies.

I remember that overnite it all stopped and to a large degree so did lots of the small busenesses that were springing up.With the stroke of a penn we went back to almost pure fossil fuels.

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The Bigfoot
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Natives do cause damage to the ecological systems of the topical climates but they aren't usually the ones who cut down the forest. They do often use dynamite in the streams to get an easy diner though.

Cutting of the forests generally happens two ways.

Either a company that sells specialty woods for export comes in with chainsaws

OR

more often, and much more tragically, it is the poor from the surrounding towns that cause the most damage.

Those with nothing who move to the edge of the forest to cut out a little place to farm. They are ignored when only a few of them are there but once enough families move in and have cut a significant portion they are reported to the government. You see, these folks don't own the land they are farming. They are squatters.

The local authority comes and chases them off the land. By this point many of the minerals have already been leached out of the soil due to poor farming techniques, erosion of the soil, and because the soil really isn't that rich anyway.

That's one thing many folks don't know about the rainforests. In most area's the active soil is only a couple inches deep. Without the protection of the forest and the constant cycle of renewal it quickly becomes barren.

Anyway, the soil is depleted and no knowledgeable farmer wants it. So the cattle barons of the area buy these great area's of land literally 'dirt cheap' and use them as grazing lands for their cattle. Eventually the land loses the ability to even support the grasses necessary to feed the cattle and the baron sends out people to look for a new squatter colony.

Seen it firsthand. It's the same cycle we see everywhere. Those that have taking from those that have not all in the name of self interest without a care for the consequences.

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bond006
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Thank you big for that clarification.

Still out of the same ilk greed to some necessity for others.

In our system we have for the most part let the profit of capitol go and run pretty much free there are some restraints but not many if you look at it from the peoples view.

Maybe phase 2 of our system will be a curtailed and very regulated form of capitalism.

Profit yes it is a good thing but not profit before the earth that we live in and peoples well being. another words profit with a social theem the same would go for Government and taxes and working together. Think of Goverment organizations like job corps but working for ecology.

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turbokid
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so is there an agreed upon reason why we came out of the last ice age?
thats the main thing i take issue with. The earth was freezing and major parts of the north and south hemisphere were covered in ice. and ice reflects sunlight so you would think this process would continue. but there was a sudden increase in c02 and the earth warmed. in fact it looks like this has happend at least 5 distinct times in the last 400,000 years. What causes the c02 to have such a marked increase without human intervention?
 -

also looking at the graph it seems that once the c02 increase starts it moves up fast, then suddenly bam "something" changes and it rights itself.
(could this be the shutdown of the gulf stream?)

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dinner42
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http://www.climatehotmap.org/antarctica.html

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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by turbokid:
so is there an agreed upon reason why we came out of the last ice age?
thats the main thing i take issue with. The earth was freezing and major parts of the north and south hemisphere were covered in ice. and ice reflects sunlight so you would think this process would continue.

there is no one answer yet that i am aware of:

that's why i gave the samrtass answer to get a Phd in meteorolgy... you know? "a butterfly flaps it's wings?"
people want simple answers where they don't exist...
each volcano can produce it's own unique "blend" of noxious BS... heck, simply producing black ash that is carried onto a large glacier could begin a warming trend... it could have started right in the great lakes from Mt St Helens..(i am simply pulling names out of air; i've seen no evidence to even suggest that)

an earthquake sets off a Tsunami, and a huge methane hydrate field is warmed up 4 degrees F.
that would be like opening a soda bottle... the methane gas would effervesce into the atmosphere very rapidly.. see Storregga slide in google (most of the papers are PDF)...


http://geosci.uchicago.edu/~archer/reprints/archer.ms.clathrates.pdf

http://www-bml.ucdavis.edu/facresearch/hill_research.html

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bdgee
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And if your bucket is already lip filled, and you open that coke bottle over it, the bucket over flows......

You can drive down the highway, with tires over inflated to twice their designed pressure when cold, and then claim it was the abnormal heat of the day warming the pavement that caused the blowout, not human activity, and, in turn, that humans aren't responsible for what caused the wreck that killed and maimed....

YEAH!

It was just nature in one of its unpredictable cycles that killed little Janie and her dad and left her brother Bob, Jr. without a leg and burned over 60% of the remaing parts of his little body....

Global warming via human activity is a myth?

Hardly, it is a trigger.

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glassman
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agreed bdgee..

people don't really want to know how fragile our ecosystem is for the same reasons they want guarantees that they are gonna be safe from terrorists, and all other sorts of "boogie men".

it's even in the Bible:
Genesis 1:26


26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."


dominion is a responsibility, it doesn't mean "here, do whatever you want with it" it means "this yours, take good care of it"...

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The Bigfoot
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I DO NOT have a PhD in meteorology so this is likely complete BS but:

Heat rises, cold sinks. Could it be that once the earth reaches a certain average temp certain gasses like CO2 sink causing a plentiful environment for vegetation which then fixes it into the soil?

Just speculation. No facts to back that up at all.

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IWISHIHAD
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I do not think that people do not care about global warming, i feel that so many people are having to live for today and cannot worry much about tomorrow. This might be an excuse for some, but it is not easy for younger people today and some older people. I have read a little on the subject but i am no expert, but it makes sense to me. But the bottom line is that alternative energy makes sense from and environmental standpoint and an economic one to the US and many other nations. It is about time the oil monopolies of the world get theirs. We are lucky that some major money has come to the backing of alternative fuels, because we know there is a lot more behind oil. This will get good over the next ten years hopefully much sooner, but it will be a fight. I am wondering what kind of costs are going to be involved in getting these fuels to market? We know that the oil companies have Hugh margins and can and will drop their prices to drive these fuels out. The problem with alternative fuels will be to compete with oil, because so many people will buy the cheapest fuel they can find. Easy access will also be important. But the end factor will be that it hopefully will become a competitors market and we as consumers will benefit environmentally, economically and worldly.
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turbokid
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quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:

Global warming via human activity is a myth?

Hardly, it is a trigger.

this time maybe. but what about the last 4 times? thats what im saying.

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"Gentleman, you have come sixty days too late. The depression is over."
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bdgee
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Turbo, you are grasping at straws and really, there aren't any straws at which to grasp.
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turbokid
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bdgee :so that graph i posted which shows us currently in a warm cycle that has happened 5 times in succession is a straw? listen man im not ignoring the fact that humans have increased c02 quantities in the air, but judging from scientific studies what we are experiencing has in fact happened before. all im doing is questioning the possibility that whats going on is part of a larger cycle of earth in which we have just accelerated in the last 100 years. Im aware that we are a wasteful,polluting,forest cutting, natural resource depleting species but the last increase of c02 that we currently are in started 15000 years ago (graph)
still not trying to argue, i agree with most of you points, on this and other topics. im just merely asking the question. "What about the other times?" thats it. [Smile]

great topic guys, you keep making me read more and more each day.

-turbo

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"Gentleman, you have come sixty days too late. The depression is over."
Herbert Hoover 1930

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