posted
I thought you'd jump on the "screw-the-poor-policy" first. LOL
Okay, so that would be a negative for you, nothing's perfect. But overall, which country would you choose and why?
quote:Originally posted by Johnwayne: Real foreign policy? The dems haven't had a real foreign policy since Truman. What was Clinton's foreign policy? He was President in the easiest foreign policy period since the mid '30's, with no war, no cold war and no terrorist attacks on American soil. I could have been Secretary of State during his two terms.
-------------------- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
quote:Originally posted by Johnwayne: Real foreign policy? The dems haven't had a real foreign policy since Truman. What was Clinton's foreign policy? He was President in the easiest foreign policy period since the mid '30's, with no war, no cold war and no terrorist attacks on American soil. I could have been Secretary of State during his two terms.
JW? i'm beginning to wonder about you.. no attacks on American soil? WTC parking garage ring a bell?
and who was it that created osambinalivetoolong? he was set up in afghanistna by who again?...LOL
and who caught him? yeah...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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posted
The WTC parking garage brings up another interesting point.
Prior to 9/11, Bush received a memo entitled 'Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States' which describes New York buildings and activities "consistent with preparations for hijacking."
Especially given that the WTC had already been attacked once, would any other president in history have tossed it in the wastebasket the way Bush did?
-------------------- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
posted
Point taken guys, forgot about WTC. Why did we set Bin Laden up in Afghanistan Glassman? have anything to do with the cold war? At the time who was our big enemy? You mean the republicans couldn't see 20 years into the future and know that Bin Laden was going to attack the US. Shame on them. War sometimes makes for strange bedfellows, sad but true. Just like after WW2 many Nazi scientists came over here and worked on our space program.
Also if I can add a few here to the liberal utopia Gordon referred to: An ammendment banning religion 75% tax rates A formal apology to all terrorists and financial renumeration for the damage we caused them when they attacked us on 9/11 Military reduction Outlawing all smoking Outlawing all SUV's Outlawing all guns Outlawing Fox news A federal law against dodge ball and musical chairs in the schools
posted
"Prior to 9/11, Bush received a memo entitled 'Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States' which describes New York buildings and activities "consistent with preparations for hijacking."
posted
JW, dubya's been in office now for 6 years... bringing up clinton is a political diversion. this is availble at the whitehouse dot gov...
i do not paste links directly there because you should look thru the website yourself.. they post a lot of stuff there that is actually true....
Fact Sheet The August 6, 2001 PDB
The August 6, 2001 Pdb Item Entitled "bin Ladin Determined to Strike in US" was prepared in response to questions asked by the President about the possibility of attacks by al-Qaida inside the United States. The PDB article did not warn of the 9-11 attacks. Although the PDB referred to the possibility of hijackings, it did not discuss the possible use of planes as weapons. The PDB was based largely on background information about past terrorist attacks conducted by al-Qaida and general threats from the late 1990s. The only recent information concerning possible current activities in the PDB related to two incidents. There is no information that either incident was related to the 9-11 attacks.
the Italians EXPECTED airplanes/jets under remote control to be used in attacks at the G8 summit meeting in June just before 911... there's lots of good info available if you really want to know ....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Q: The PDB item stated that "al-Qa'ida members have resided in or traveled to the US for years, and the group apparently maintains a support structure that could aid attacks." Was this new information and what was being done about it?
The presence of individuals associated or affiliated with al-Qaida in the United States was not new information. This information had been well-known to the intelligence and law enforcement communities for a number of years. The FBI was actively investigating individuals associated or affiliated with al-Qaida in the United States -- a fact noted in the PDB article. As also noted in the PDB article, the FBI was conducting approximately 70 full-field Bin-Laden-related investigations.
more from whitehouse dotgov
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:Originally posted by Gordon Bennett: Which country would you rather live in: a country where the FAR LEFT got everything it wanted (free medical care, gay marriage, legal abortion and a real foreign policy, etc.), or one where the FAR RIGHT got everything it wanted (no privacy rights, no reproductive rights, no life-partner rights, reduced human rights, endless war, an official screw-the-poor policy, etc.)?
Sorry had to step away....Good points. BUT you left out a slew of Lib. demands
-------------------- "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication"
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Q: Why is the term "patterns of suspicious activity" used in the PDB and what does it refer to?
The CIA author of the PDB item judged, after consulting an FBI colleague, that there were suspicious patterns of activity that were worrisome, even though nothing pointed to a specific operation in a specific location. o In that vein, the author was concerned that one of the East African bombing defendants had told FBI officers earlier in 2001 that Bin Laden would retaliate if the defendants in the trial were convicted -- four were convicted in New York on May 29 -- with a major attack, something the FBI interpreted to mean possibly in the United States. o In addition, the CIA author understood that there had been possible recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York. Except for the information relating to the possible surveillance of federal buildings in New York, which was later determined by the FBI to be consistent with tourist-related activity, the PDB item contained no information from FBI investigations that indicated activities related to the preparation or planning for hijackings or other attacks within the United States. None of the information relating to the "patterns of suspicious activity" was later deemed to be related to the 9-11 attacks. From June through September, the FAA and FBI issued a number of warnings about the possibility of terrorist attacks. FAA warnings included specific warnings about the possibility of a hijacking to free imprisoned al-Qaida members inside the United States and the possibility of attacks in response to law enforcement actions against al-Qaida members.
and that bstrd massoui was already in custody....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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APRIL 10--Under pressure from the September 11 commission, the White House today declassified and released an intelligence digest given to President George W. Bush weeks before the 2001 terrorist attacks. The confidential President's Daily Brief (PDB) for August 6, 2001 contained a two-page section entitled "Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in US," and refers to possible hijacking attempts by Osama bin Laden disciples and the existence of about 70 FBI investigations into alleged al-Qaeda cells operating within the United States. The August 6 PDB, an excerpt from which you'll find below, was presented to Bush while he vacationed at his ranch in Crawford, Texas. The digest is prepared by the Central Intelligence Agency, an official from which briefs the president on the report's contents. While Bush critics have described the August 6 PDB as a warning of an impending al-Qaeda attack, Condoleezza Rice, Bush's national security adviser, testified Thursday that the document contained "historical information based on old reporting. There was no new threat information." (2 pages)
You left out the First part of the paragraph and the paragraph immediately after.
The paragraph starts out ....
We have not been able to corroborate some of the more sensational threat reporting such as that from a service in 1998 saying that Bin Laden wanted to hijack a US aircraft to gain release of Blind Shaykh Umar and other US held extremists Never the less, FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activities activity in this country consistent with preperations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.
The FBI is conducting approximately 70 full field investigations throughout the US that it considers Bin Ladin related. CIA and the FBI are investigating a call to our embassy in UAE in may saying that a groupd of Bin Laden supporters was in the US planning attacks with explosives.
What would you have him do? Open a 71st FBI investigation?
Also is there a link to the full report? this was only two pages of it.
And what is the reason you want to talk about Clinton? Because you don't want to admit that this is dubya's screw-up and no one else by him is responsible.
It's because of the training from the Party line:
When you get trapped by your own double speak and distortions, change the subject.....and being hateful and crude will cover up that you are changing the topic in order to run from the truth.
The only consensus you are interested in is a consensus that we aboid the fact that we are in Iraq as a result of Bush lies and deceptions.
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and? we are empowering Shia Muslims that are affiliated with Iran who is our mortal enemy Iran...
who got so greedy they failed to see the forest from the trees on this one? Cheney and the neo-cons... who didn't know the difference between a Sunni (Paki's, Saudis ) and a Shia? Bush, the foreign policy genius according to you? LOL
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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I've heard both Rummy and dubya claim that "no one could have expected th events after the fall of Bagdad and how things turned out in Iraq".
Horse crap!
Over and over I heard the Administration warned that the results would be exactly as they have become. It was in response to such warnings that they declared it would ge a "cake walk" and "the Iraqis will welcome us with roses". Bush refused to listen!
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he even put it in print... In his memoirs, A World Transformed, written more than five years ago, George Bush, Sr. wrote the following to explain why he didn't go after Saddam Hussein at the end of the Gulf War:
"Trying to eliminate Saddam .. would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible ... We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq ...there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land."
If only his son could read.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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posted
So the FBI knows about suspicious acctivty, the CIA knows about suspicious acivity, the FAA knows about suspicous activity and Bush gets a report thrown on his desk with a bunch of information from 1998. Now he knows that all three of these organizations are aware of this activity does he not? So what is he supposed to do? Make them doubly aware, Work the grave yard shift at airports?
I can agree that the guy at the top takes responsibility, that's the job. But he is no more responsible than,... you know who was on watch during the WTC bombing in 1993.
PS guys, It says right in the title of the topic "Clintons Vietnam service". Who cares what my motivation is? Party line, run from the truth, blah blah blah. If you feel the topic is irrelevant, don't click on the thread.
posted
Almost everybody knew it, Glass.... Even these guys that are in Washington now knew an invasion of Iraq was a trap. But they had other reasons to want a war.
So they fabricated a tale of Saddam with direct ties to Al Qaeda, stock piles of WMDs, and plans for their use in imminent attacks on the U.S. mainland to overcome the concerns of it being a trap.
There is no honorable way out and no such thing as a victory. Every honest person admitted that beforehand. It was a blunder to cover schemes more important to the Party that is the Country.
We have played into the fondest hopes of Ben laden.
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"Almost everybody knew it, Glass.... Even these guys that are in Washington now knew an invasion of Iraq was a trap. But they had other reasons to want a war.
So they fabricated a tale of Saddam with direct ties to Al Qaeda, stock piles of WMDs, and plans for their use in imminent attacks on the U.S. mainland to overcome the concerns of it being a trap."
Good thing my previous presented evidence proves this statement wrong.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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Bdgee, you lose this round again! here's part of the proof and why it hasn't been widely reported. This was the reason you went and hid a few dys til the thread died down. As an apolitical person, I have no party line. Regarding the "hollow claims" check out HRW's website for the documentation of meat grinder and plastic shredder usage in Saddam era Iraq. That's simple ancient history.
Just as the comments about the two Russian Generals:
ah yes, now that one was where you started to avoid me. No party line here, I blast 'em both with these articles. Feel free to read them and comment further.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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posted
And as far as the story about the Russian generals who secreted WMDs out of Iraq to Syria and Russia scant days before the war began, that demonstrates not only that WMDs existed in Iraq, as we found recently again, but it also demonstrates Bush is consistent in his understanding of National Security.
In the Washington Post (liberal bastion) story, we see Bush fired a person for talking about this story because it was an on-going investigation of our security agencies. It paints the picture of a Chief Executive who put the security of the nation above his personal political interests. Quite a different picture than your "party line." George Bush could have cleared his name with this story, but in turn he would have jeopardized national security agents, so he ordered it squelched, in order to protect them. PO24 ran the story as well; I suggest you get an international perspective.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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you would have found this:Mr. Shaw went public to counter a political "October surprise" campaign designed to "crucify the president" over the missing explosives, he wrote to Mr. Rumsfeld. "The Kerry media-driven October surprise attack on us and the president stopped within hours," Mr. Shaw wrote. "If I had not had the openly hostile environment in [Pentagon public affairs], I would have moved the story differently. Getting the truth out instantly was more important than process."
"He has been directed on several occasions to produce evidence of his wide-ranging and fantastic charges and provide it to the DoD inspector general," Mr. DiRita said in an interview. "To my knowledge, he has not done so." Mr. DiRita declined to comment on specific accusations made by Mr. Shaw.
the guy was fired for lying...
and?
i clearly remeber all the bozo's who showed up here at allstocks claiming the same thing back during the campaign... they have all left cuz they are embarassed to have believed this crock o'chit...
there is ONE possibility that i entertained for a long time
sadam may have had some samllpox from Russia...
it never turned up... if Bush could have shown ANY WMD? he wouldn't have had to even campaign.
why do you think abugraib happened?
your high and mighty do-gooder attitude suffers on that one doesn't it?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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posted
Not at all glassman, since other sources said the same thing. I simply present articles that discuss the issue. Contrary to what your view of religion and my Independent politics allow, I allow both sides of a story to be expressed. I am quite secure knowing that I do not have a lock on the truth
I think Abu Graib happened because our troops are human beings. See, Glass, your hatred of religion mystifies me. What exactly gives you the impression I am high and mighty? Come see me preach sometime, you'll know I am a bleeding heart who is simply a limited part of creation. That shades my worldview in the following way.
In my faith, I can look at Abu Graib and see that horrible incident for what it is: a terrible manifestation of human nature. The Biblical understanding of humanity is true: we are sinners at heart. Left to ourselves we are greedy, violent, self-centered. People who are left in difficult situations eventually exhibit those tendencies.
So I see Abu Graib for what it is, a failure of humanity to live up to its self-imposed ideals. Not on the scale of Saddy who killed 1,400,000 Iraqis, Iranians, Kuwaitis, Kurds, Marsh Arabs and coalition forces.
That is not to justify the reprehensible act, nothing can excuse those soldiers' behavior. It is another example of why this was a burden for the whole Western imperialist franchise: France, Britain, Germany, Russia and the US, all of whom at various stages and levels of involvement, have drawn an imaginary map (as was done in Yugoslavia, Africa and India), played tribes off against each other, put Saddy in power, armed him to the teeth and encouraged him to attack Iran. None of us did anything when he gased Kurds. None of us did anything as he butchered 5000-6000 of his own people a year.
See you all think I support Bush because of the WMDs and such, I don't. I support ending a dictator's regime, as I would be for ending the regime in Sudan. At some point, the developed world has to take responsibility, to say, "We've done wrong," and work to fix it even if it costs our own lives, even if it's expensive. Not for nukes, WMDs, terrorist connections, (though they were all there) but for human lives. To post warning to brutal dictators and say, "If you kill your people, we will hunt you down, drag you out of whatever hole you crawl into and lock you up.
Now that's a noble, idealistic endeavor that we can't in our own strength accomplish. So atrocities happen. One thing I can say, our troops are prosecuted for atrocities, inadequately to be sure for nothing can remove the stain, where Saddy's troops were given medals and promotions.
See a limited political agenda will lift up only one side or the other. As GB noticed yesterday, my point is not to clobber those who disagree with me, but to engage in the free exchange of ideas. He called me devil's advocate; not quite accurate but then I often defy labels.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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Glassman- "He has been directed on several occasions to produce evidence of his wide-ranging and fantastic charges and provide it to the DoD inspector general," Mr. DiRita said in an interview. "To my knowledge, he has not done so."
no thanx.... Left to ourselves we are greedy, violent, self-centered. People who are left in difficult situations eventually exhibit those tendencies.
duh...
I support ending a dictator's regime,
Iran is a democracy.... a one party democracy, but a democracy... is that a dictatorship?
"If you kill your people, we will hunt you down, drag you out of whatever hole you crawl into and lock you up.
the evidence for 1.4 million people is not there... you didn't provide evidence for that just hearsay and justice in the mideast is not the same as justice here.... i'm not saying sadam was a good guy.. i'm saying that the people in Iraq want a dictatorship as do the people of Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia ...
i know this is a hard concept for you to swallow, but its true..
we in the US are the oddballs in the world cuz we have never had a King, except when we were colonies, and not a country...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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"If you kill your people, we will hunt you down, drag you out of whatever hole you crawl into and lock you up."
lessee howmuch more fun we can have with this religio-fascist statement....
....after we lock you up? we're gonna kill you...
and
....who cares how many people WE kill to get you?.....
and
...while we are at it? we'll make sure our good buddies make about a quarter trillion doallrs in revenues, all the while villifying people that oppose US by accusing them of being greedy ... LOL..
man, i hope you know how to ask forgiveness...
cuz you are the worst type of peacenik...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Well where does he say or even imply he is going to kill people Glassman? You mean religous people can't believe in jail? Religous people can't believe in the rule of law?
posted
Glassman- Oh so do you mean Christians can only believe in locking up people who don't face the death penalty? In other words just the light weights and if you commit a crime that could lead to death penalty sentence you get to go free. So you feel Christians should have been against apprehending all of the SS Generals? How about Bundy? Gacy? Those guys get to go free?
posted
Glass commented to my statement "lock you up."
What part of that statement eludes you? I am opposed to war and killing, I am opposed to capitol punishment. As opposed as I am to war, I am opposed to sitting back and allowing a guy we empowered to kill his own people in massive numbers. I know you would rather we just let those Iraqis keep dying, little babies going without incubators, and all. I understand you think that was the better way to go. I absolutely disagree! You cannot keep sending that message out to the dictators of the world that it is okay to torture, maim and kill your own people.
"If you kill your people, we will hunt you down, drag you out of whatever hole you crawl into and lock you up. lessee howmuch more fun we can have with this religio-fascist statement...."
Now, supporter of genocidal dictators, tell me if you are one of the potential victims of that regime, what part of my statement is fascist. Listen again to the phrases, break down the sentence if the meaning is escaping you.
I am pointing out that we need to send a message palin and simple: if dictators with violate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, they will not be allowed to be in power. If they want to use peasants for target practice they will be removed from power. What is fascist about that?
"Iran is a democracy.... a one party democracy, but a democracy... is that a dictatorship?"
No but given I was speaking of Iraq, I assume we can agree it WAS a dictatorship.
"the evidence for 1.4 million people is not there"
see my posts about Iraqi and Iranian history, 1.4 million may be too few. But here you are an apologist for Saddam. The truth comes out at last. Sounds like those Nazi apologists that sy the Holocaust never happened. Why is is there are always good, sincere people who just won't recognize genocide happens?
"cuz you are the worst type of peacenik..."
Yes, I am sure given your denial of ethnic cleansing that you think a person opposed to killing is the worst.
"what ever happened to Thou Shalt Not Kill? pretty inconvenient at times like this huh????"
It's a judgment we all face friend. Not inconvenient at all. But I would rather face God with the conviction in my heart that I spent my life ending the oppression of the victims of violence, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, housing the homeless. Stick to your support of the status quo, stick to supporting dictators, keep ignoring the pictures of genocide, keep making excuses for doing nothing. Feel good about the situation the world was in with Saddy in power. Ignore the cries around you. It's all good friend.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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What part of that statement eludes you? I am opposed to war and killing, I am opposed to capitol punishment. As opposed as I am to war, I am opposed to sitting back and allowing a guy we empowered to kill his own people in massive numbers. I know you would rather we just let those Iraqis keep dying, little babies going without incubators, and all. I understand you think that was the better way to go. I absolutely disagree! You cannot keep sending that message out to the dictators of the world that it is okay to torture, maim and kill your own people.
wow... lay it on thick...
you have the Terible Swift Sword in your hand....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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