posted
I appreciate the kind words mooseass, I have dealt in a lot of stocks and options...but that was when the market was in turmoil, no, chaos. I am still heavily invested, though not "tradin" as much as I used to. Gettin bored again.
Stop lying. Bigfoot obviously isn't an idiot and can read the posts for himself. It is quite apparent who is open minded, who isn't, who calls people names, who doesn't, who provides factual information and who doesn't, who harrasses people and who doesn't.
This post is nothing but harrassment:
"The Bigfoot,
I would like to believe that your efforts to provide Aragorn with factual and accepted conclusion of the scientific community will have the results it would with reasonably intellegent people that are open minded. But I must warn you, essentially the exact same information (and much more) has already been provided for him here (since he never has posted at Allstocks except in "Off Topics", one wonders why he is here) and the results were a spew of hateful rightwing religious uttering and name calling. He seems to believe that stuff provided him by the evangelical far right cannot be questioned and if you do so, you are subject to being labeled all manner of things, only beginning with being labeled a non-Christian (whether it is true or not).
He'll claim that he has equally and better qualified "scientist" (don't be surprised to find his experts working for the "National Enquirer"....he seems to believe in space invades and little green men too) that have proved everything he and the evangellicals and the Republican party foster. His own background in and with science (them that can do, them that can't teach, and them that can't do or teach show up and harrass real ones on the internet) is suspect at best and his loose excuse for logic is really childish.
I wish you luck, but expect you to have a bad experience just like so many others."
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Drawing conclusions from one issue such as the ozone and applying them to anther such as global warming is not good science.
Your concerns with the depletion of the rain forests are good ones, yet that is not the United States which is doing it. The nations doing the worst offenses against the environment are not the developed nations, the ones targeted by Kyoto, but the 3rd world nations. The ones polluting indiscriminently and cutting down the forests. So why support a program which does nothing to the worst offenders?
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#1) You are right, we are no longer a deforestation country as we once were when unchecked logging ran rampant. However...we are one of the largest producers of these greenhouse gasses that the forests would slowly be taking care of. Until we (or better yet they themselves) are able to stop these 3rd world countries from destroying this wonderful resource the next best thing that can be done is reduce the amount of gasses being released into the environment.
Also...before you think it is only a 3rd world issue I beg you to consider the amount of farmland in the United States that used to be Prairie. Prairie grasses are very good nitrogen fixing soil enrichers. We have replaced these beneficial plants with Corn and Soybeans which do not have those properties. Combined with non sustainable farming techniques (which are still the norm for America's farm country) it irrodes the health of both the soil and air environment.
#2) 2nd and 3rd world countries attepmt to emulate "big brother" even though they have limited resources to make themselves seem a more legitimate society. Take a ride on the city street in Quito, Ecuador and you will understand what I am saying. They do not have the infrustructure that America does to support the type of traffic they have, but everyone believes they need a car to be happy. If America makes these issues a priority that will resound accross the world.
#3 America has a technological and manufacturing base as well as some of the best scientific minds in the world. If there are going to be breakthroughs in environmentally friendly technology this is the best place for it to happen. Nessecity is the mother of invention. If we embrace environmental legislation and support it, I am guessing there will only be a few years of "sacrifice" before industry leaders are able to make leaps that support an industrialized society while still being environemntally friendly.
These are some of the reasons that I support the Kyoto treaty and I am happy that I live in one of 200 cities who's mayor has personally chosen to keep his city to those standards even though the national government decided to drop away.
Have to go.
Talk more later,
The Bigfoot
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues.
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1 - It doesn't apply to some of the worst offenders on pollution in the world, the third world nations.
2 - It doesn't address the related issues such as deforestation that you mentioned.
3 - It has proven to be nearly impossible for the standards to be met. Even the European nations that support it have not met the standards.
I support efforts to reduce pollution. I want clean water, clean air, clean soils. I don't support deforestation and I want environmentally freindly policies. The United States is a leading nation in all of those categories. We have cleaned up our act considerably and continue to do so. Kyoto isn't going to change that, nor is not ratifying Kyoto.
Glassman,
Try to stick to the subject rather than attacking the poster. You're almost getting as bad as bdgee.
No, it is not good science to take one issue and automatically apply it to another. Are you suggesting it is? I'd like to see where this is even suggested as any scientific research method.
So man has contributed significantly to the ozone issue so that means he also significantly contributes to the global warming issue? Science doesn't work that way. They are two different issues although there may be connections between the two.
bdgee,
You MUST stop describing yourself. You already look bad enough.
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You MUST stop describing yourself. You already look bad enough.
Hey, now...the chicks like my looks and they are really hep on my witty conversation, My big regret is that I ain't able to spread me around more. I'm a generous sul, ya know.
Frankly, I must say, I'm oh so pleased you don't find me attractive.....I ain't into guys, specially dullards. So keep your hands to yaself, doofus.
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A few examples of why the science of global warming is imprecise at best, the following from this mornings newspaper.
The United States has had one of it's warmest Januarys in history. Note I said "one of" it is not the record. Central PA has not hit a record high yet although it has come close on half a dozen days. These are scattered over many years going back to as far as records being kept. It was the warmest in St Paul since 160 years ago. 160 years ago, there were no auto emmissions. It is the first time since 1875 that temps in Bismark ND remained above freezing. Again, 130 years ago, no auto emissions.
While this is occuring, Europe is locked in a deep freeze, Russia in a similar freeze as were recognized during Hitler's invasion in the 1940's and Napoleon's invasion in 1812.
Another article outlines the El Nina effect, tropical Pacific waters below normal temps, cooler than usual. So while the Atlantic is currently warmer, the Pacific is cooler. This is to influence the Hurricane season which is itself going through a measured cycle and the higher activity levels are predicted to extend another 10 years.
Past articles have stated strong concerns for England, which is expected to grow much cooler as a result of global warming and a shift in the Gulf Stream. Yet this cooling/warming cycle can also be measured. When Dicken's was writing his books, the Thames River froze over nearly every winter. They held a festival in London each year. The Thames has not frozen in many, many years. Previous human expansion into England and human development in Europe can be traced to warming cycles. The "dark" ages have been recorded as been a very cold period, the Renaisaince period as being a warm period. This information comes from a History Channel broadcast of a few weeks ago. The warm weather led to increased food production, northern expansion, population increases and more time available for the arts, etc.
We can measure it better now, but that still does not exclude the natural processes and cycles of the earth.
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I know that most of you probably have a negative opinion built up about this guy, but if you are interested in learning more, Al Gore can help you do it.
There is a lot of political stigma around Al, but he really does know what he is talking about on the issue. His books are good, his presentation that he takes across the country is even better.
Aragorn, You are right...I doubt any country that has signed their name to Kyoto will actually meet its expectations. It is the stuggle to meet high standards that will improve current standards. Just as the law doesn't prevent crime, but without it we would be lost in anarchy.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that America has done a LOT already. We definately have, but the job isn't done. And there is very real support by the average American for environmentally safe products and services.
The Toyota Prius is being sold USED for higher prices than the NEW vehicles in California because demand is so high. Solar roof panels are making a reappearance after a hiatus of over 20 years of unpopularity. And it seems every month I see some new stock like VITS feeding off the natural health label.
I am wandering here.
As to the thought that it doesn't stop the worst offenders...you are right in some repects. So what are the options? Throw our hands up and walk away from the problem? Invade a country and make them recycle? (I do not mean either of these options seriously)
When it comes to 2nd and 3rd world countries education is the key to changing destructive behaviors. But we have to be careful, we have to back up our words with actions. By removing America from the Kyoto treaty Bush has damaged the advancement of environmentalism in these countries for the simple reason that he has given dissenters a huge reason to complain.
"These American's are trying to tell us not to make money from our resources but look at them. They pull out of environmental plans that could cut their profits as soon as the deadlines start to come near! Why should we listen to anything they say?"
The other thing about education is that it takes time. It has taken generations for the environmental message to become mainstream in America. It will likely take as much time or even longer of consistant education initatives for these messages to be taken to heart in developing nations as well. Especially if they believe environmental ideals stand in the way of the development they desire!
That's why there are some people who aren't waiting. I have a British friend who has taken his fortune and bought a large amount of land in the South American cloud forest. His goal is to keep that land pristine, supporting it with eco-tourism to a resort he has built from natural materials and named 'Buena Vista', so that something will still be around 20 years from now. Despite his ownership of the land and governemental ties, he still has to chase away the chainsaws at least once a week.
In the end I guess what I am saying is that, yes, there is a lot of work to do in the international community to gain compliance from the worst offenders. And yes, there are some very important issues that aren't addressed by Kyoto.
In my mind, the only way we are going to win on these issues is if we make ourself so credible and offer environmental options that work so well that we can not be ignored. Dropping our name off of Kyoto is not the way to do that. It just continues the image that other countries have about America as a meddling nation that pulls out as soon as things start to get difficult.
The Bigfoot
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues.
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Start regulating companies that move to third world countries to avoid the tougher pollution controls.
Start funding of environmental protections in the 3rd world nations.
Education as you mentioned is very important.
Start actually having some expectations from all the aid money we provide many of these nations. If they want aid, they have to follow certain guidelines. I'd even be for increasing the aid to help meet these conditions if it would work.
I don't really agree with the setting the example idea you propose. I understand that in an ideal world that would work fine but the world unfortunately is not ideal. A lot of these nations take our aid, turn around and laugh like crazy at our naivity of giving it to them. The leadership of these nations restrict what the common person learns. The examples would fall on deaf ears and the people would still have a bad opinion of us even if we did set an example.
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So man has contributed significantly to the ozone issue so that means he also significantly contributes to the global warming issue? Science doesn't work that way. They are two different issues although there may be connections between the two.
LOL no connection between gloabl warming and depletion of the ozone layer?
once again you make a foolish statement or simply lie, it's difficutl to determine which...
it's hard to tell which, but you are very wrong, ozone depletion contibutes to global warming in many ways, one is because more UV light penetrates the world’s oceans and destroys plankton. Plankton plays a pivotal role in the ability of oceans to draw carbon dioxide (the primary global warming chemical) from the atmosphere, thereby making oceans (along with rainforests) important “carbon sinks.” Loss of these “sinks” further exacerbates global warming by accelerating the buildup of so-called greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.
you seem to think the world is simple and you have the answers... it ain't simple and you are wrong most of the time... budgee just has less patience with hubrus than i do.... maybe it's because i am accustomed to dealing with impetuous youth...
i can't recall ever having seen one poster post so many falsehoods/incorrect statements....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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1 - It doesn't apply to some of the worst offenders on pollution in the world, the third world nations.
who are the "worst offenders"??? LOL
China and India have ratified Kyoto, but as developing nations they do not have to meet its obligations in the protocol's first phase that ends in 2012.
we were the worlds biggest polluter...China may have passed US, India will soon....
BUT?
per capita? we will most likely remain on top...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Oooooohhhh! Here's a good question.....why does the US now import most of it's production steel? While it still exports most of it's scrap steel for smelting? Ooooohhhhh... and why is that??? LOL...
-------------------- Marty When I was born, I was granted a visitors pass to earth. I will enjoy everyday until it has expired. You should too ;)
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I'm sorry Glass, but I fail to see the correlation to my previous statement regarding "steel production and exportation"...I mentioned NOTHING of labor....please clarify.....
quote:Originally posted by glassman: steel?---labor costs????
here's an analysis by our govt researchers... Scientists said yesterday that these differences should not detract from their common conclusion that the world is experiencing serious climate change, driven in part by human activity. Researchers recently found by drilling ice cores that there is a higher concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere than in any time in the last 650,000 years, which reflects that humans are burning an increased amount of fossil fuels to power automobiles and utilities.
The Earth has warmed 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit in the past century, with 1 degree of this increase occurring in the past 30 years. This climate change has brought unusually prolonged droughts in some regions and heavy precipitation in others, while the Arctic's sea ice has shrunk to its lowest level since observers started using satellite records in 1979.
-------------------- Marty When I was born, I was granted a visitors pass to earth. I will enjoy everyday until it has expired. You should too ;)
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And furthermore, you don't specify WHY, the US is no longer the steel industry leader? Why? Because our standards for steel production and smelting are higher than ANY other nation....it's cheaper to import from Japan, than manufacture here.....why is that?
quote:Originally posted by glassman: steel?---labor costs????
here's an analysis by our govt researchers... Scientists said yesterday that these differences should not detract from their common conclusion that the world is experiencing serious climate change, driven in part by human activity. Researchers recently found by drilling ice cores that there is a higher concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere than in any time in the last 650,000 years, which reflects that humans are burning an increased amount of fossil fuels to power automobiles and utilities.
The Earth has warmed 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit in the past century, with 1 degree of this increase occurring in the past 30 years. This climate change has brought unusually prolonged droughts in some regions and heavy precipitation in others, while the Arctic's sea ice has shrunk to its lowest level since observers started using satellite records in 1979.
-------------------- Marty When I was born, I was granted a visitors pass to earth. I will enjoy everyday until it has expired. You should too ;)
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sorry Marty i'll fix it and make two posts..
here's an analysis on GLOBAL WARMING by our govt researchers...
Scientists said yesterday that these differences should not detract from their common conclusion that the world is experiencing serious climate change, driven in part by human activity. Researchers recently found by drilling ice cores that there is a higher concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere than in any time in the last 650,000 years, which reflects that humans are burning an increased amount of fossil fuels to power automobiles and utilities.
The Earth has warmed 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit in the past century, with 1 degree of this increase occurring in the past 30 years. This climate change has brought unusually prolonged droughts in some regions and heavy precipitation in others, while the Arctic's sea ice has shrunk to its lowest level since observers started using satellite records in 1979.
as for the erroneous statement that the earth has been warming CONTINUOUSLY since the last ice age?
i refer you to the Piri Reiss maps which confuse EVERYTHING....
they are probably copies (made about the time of Colombus) of maps made much earlier... they show antarctica without ice...
they were found prior to the making of our US Navy's maps which showed the antarctic land mass UNDER the ice....
so? are any of the ice core samples taken in antarctica really 650,000 or more years old? if they are? then somebody with sonar or ground penetrating radar made them before Colombus sailed here....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Thanks Glass, but you still didn't answer the ultimate question below???
quote:Originally posted by Marty: And furthermore, you don't specify WHY, the US is no longer the steel industry leader? Why? Because our standards for steel production and smelting are higher than ANY other nation....it's cheaper to import from Japan, than manufacture here.....why is that?
quote:Originally posted by glassman: steel?---labor costs????
here's an analysis by our govt researchers... Scientists said yesterday that these differences should not detract from their common conclusion that the world is experiencing serious climate change, driven in part by human activity. Researchers recently found by drilling ice cores that there is a higher concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere than in any time in the last 650,000 years, which reflects that humans are burning an increased amount of fossil fuels to power automobiles and utilities.
The Earth has warmed 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit in the past century, with 1 degree of this increase occurring in the past 30 years. This climate change has brought unusually prolonged droughts in some regions and heavy precipitation in others, while the Arctic's sea ice has shrunk to its lowest level since observers started using satellite records in 1979.
-------------------- Marty When I was born, I was granted a visitors pass to earth. I will enjoy everyday until it has expired. You should too ;)
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illegal dumping of steel by the foreign producers,
Q&A: US-EU Steel Dispute Steel works Mr Bush has been trying to keep US steel workers onside US President George W Bush has announced that his administration is to remove all import tariffs on steel imports from Europe and other suppliers.
BBC News Online looks at the background and political implications surrounding the decision.
CSN isn't the only Brazilian company that knows how to make steel cheaply. All of Brazil's big steelmakers turn out steel at costs as much as 40% below those of comparable mills in the U.S., says steel consultant Donald Barnett of Economic Associates in Great Falls, Va. CSN's two biggest competitors, Usinas Siderurgicas de Minas Gerais, best known as Usiminas, and Companhia Siderurgica de Tubarao, or CST, both say it costs them less than $120 a metric ton to make slab, multi-ton chunks of semifinished steel. In the U.S. the cost is about double that. Some Russian and Chinese mills get within range of Brazil's costs, possibly thanks to fuzzy accounting. But Brazil, now No. 8 among steelmaking nations, has huge reserves of the world's best iron ore and an unmatched transportation system to deliver it to a group of well-managed steelworks. That combination is unbeatable. After a decade of modernization, Brazilian steel output per man-year has more than tripled, from 141 tons to 470, while quality has improved. The jump in tons per man-year reflects a huge drop in industry employment, from 178,000 to about 64,400 workers. CST spent $26 million on severance pay in the first month after it was auctioned off, immediately reducing its payroll from 6,000 to 4,200. CSN reduced its payroll from over 16,000 in 1991 to under 9,000.
posted
And that friggin' sucks........the US has steel environmental issues for production, but foreigners are not bound by it, and we have to buy from them....carp!!!!...thanks glass....
-------------------- Marty When I was born, I was granted a visitors pass to earth. I will enjoy everyday until it has expired. You should too ;)
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No, you made a foolish statement and instead of admitting to it, you try to deflect attention from your foolish statement by making an accusation against me.
I never said there isn't a connection between global warming and the depletion of the ozone layer did I. So who is making another foolish statment or simply lieing? It's not difficult at all to determine who.
I'm not wrong because I never said what you claim I did, that makes YOU wrong.
What I said is:
"Drawing conclusions from one issue such as the ozone and applying them to anther such as global warming is not good science"
In simple terms since you failed to understand that statement:
Ozone depletion is one issue
Global warming is one issue
Each must be studied individually
Each has different causes and effects
Assuming that since one cause has been a determining factor for one means it is also a detemining factor for the other is bad science
What affects one, may have no relation to the other
Pretty simple stuff really, yet you have to twist it around to make yourself look correct. You didn't. Your saying I'm wrong most of the time unfortunately for you doesn't make me wrong most of the time. Just makes you look like you no longer have an arguement. And if you have to tell another he is wrong, without proving it, guess what, it is most likely that you are wrong.
"You can't recall ever having seen one poster post so many falsehoods/incorrect statements"
I haven't either, bdgee is quite the poster. Keep at it and you may aspire to his level one day.
In all your accusations, you never asked me if I felt ozone depletion can be a factor involved in global warming. Obviously it is a very strong possibility. To make that deteminationl, you have to study the effects of ozone depletion on global warming. You cannot simply assume one leads to the other.
It is also very possible that global warming is causing the ozone depletion.
You want to know why you are wrong most of the time? Because you constantly make assumptions and start making accusations rather than discussing the issues. You have a very bad habit of reading something and inserting what you want to see into what you are reading and then running with it like a kid with a pair of scissors. You don't even know what my beliefs are on most of the topics we've discussed because you've never bothered to ask or listen to the answers when given anyway. And then you resort to the good old, "you're wrong most of the time", "you're foolish", "you're impetuous" That last one is really funny because impetuous I am not in the least. My favorites continue to be when you insert religious beliefs into nearly every discussion at some point like they have some bearing on the issue. What is up with that anyway?
To get back on topic and to discuss both the issues, ozone and global warming, I'll sumarize my position.
Global warming (and cooling) occurs naturally and in cycles and has since the beginnings of the earth. Science has proven this, it is known, it is a given, it is not really debatable. It has gone beyond theory to measurable fact. The earth at its warmest had no polar ice caps and at its coldest had glaciers which covered much of its land surface.
Global warming has continued for the most part since the end of the last ice age. Again, temperatures fluctuate up and down in cycles but overall, the earth continues to warm.
Mans effect on global warming remains a theory. It is theorised that the release of greenhouse gasses is accelerating global warming. This is a distinct possibility and most scientists studying global warming are in agreement on this. What is not known is the percentage of acceleration. Many scientists minimize the effect of man due to other measurable factors such as volcanos, solar activity, etc.
I believe that man does have a small effect, but not the overall effect and is not going to push us over any "edge" that we will not go over anyway.
Ozone depletion is something which man may have a greater impact on. It may also contribute to global warming, or global warming could be contributing to it. In any case, if man affects the ozone depletion, and the ozone depletion affects global warming, it still does not change man's minimal impact on overall global warming.
Despite all that, I quit using spray cans as soon as the warnings went out. I quit playing with old refrigerator compressors to release the fluorocarbons into the atmosphere. I purchase my vehicles based upon their mileage, not their looks or size, I turn off lights when I leave a room and I recycle more than what the local regulations require. I don't support polluting the atmoshere, the waters or the land. I have been collecting trash from along the highways for 10 years now and when I'm walking in the woods, I pick up after others and don't leave anything of my own behind.
The Bigfoot is like a breath of fresh air in this place. Someone who actually seems to want to discuss an issue, not see to can bite the others head off first or bully them off with name calling and insults.
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-------------------- Marty When I was born, I was granted a visitors pass to earth. I will enjoy everyday until it has expired. You should too ;)
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My favorites continue to be when you insert religious beliefs into nearly every discussion at some point like they have some bearing on the issue. What is up with that anyway?
... you really don't get it do you?
the poster that said Israel is a zircon was speaking about the biblical relationship and references, NOT the Israeli's ability to fight wars, which of course WE fund and support... you are the one that "got off track"... cuz you responded by saying he was wrong...
They are two different issues although there may be connections between the two.
global warming and ozone depletion are not two separate issues... they are one issue...this issue being chemical pollution of the environment and how WE humans are responsible or irresponsible....
of course i know of several dozen competing theories about global warming.. fact is? we are behaving like lemmings... and i don't like it... but WTF can i do?
there is a very strong theory that a sharp spike in global temps would actually trigger a return of the ice age... which is the more common state of the planet anyway... but that requires the poles to keep their ice caps, which are melting they say..
you make statements that ask for critisism, it doesn't hurt your feelings right? or you'd stop doing it... so why are you complaining...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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You're the one that doesn't get it. The poster said Israel didn't have a right to exist, period. You opted to fixate on the religion issue. His reference was that Israel was not the Biblical Israel, meaning that Israel, the Biblical Israel, the Israel of prophecy in your words no longer existed, this was a new Israel created by artificial means and propped up by artificial means and thus had no right to exist. He made no mention of prophecy, nor did any other poster there except you. Yet you accused others of doing so.
Global warming and the ozone depletion are indeed two seperate issues. You can't study the one and conclude that the same factors involved in the first work for the second as well. They may be related, one may affect the other but they are still two seperate issue. Just as the release of greenhouse gases and the release of fluorocarbons are two seperate issues.
I make statements which ask for discussion, not criticism. I don't believe anyone asks for criticism. That you view life in that manner is unfortunate.
Why am I complaining? I'm not complaining, I'm asking for civil discourse which is nearly absent from these boards.
bdgee asks why I don't post on the stocks message boards, the "why am I here question". I'm here because I was refered to this board by people who no longer can stomach coming here to post. We were discussing message boards we freqented over the years. They said they used to enjoy posting here that it was a great place but it has gotten taken over by a few very bad mannered individuals filled with hate, anger and prejudice. I came here out of curiosity. I found them to be correct.
I've seen how every person with conservative leanings is ganged up upon and by some individuals called names almost immediately. I find that curious as I would figure that most individuals investing in corporate America would probably be conservative so why is it that liberals dominate this board. My guess is, they decided they didn't need the aggravation, there are plenty of other message boards out there where they can discuss their kids or their cars or hunting and fishing or politics without someone jumping in there and saying, they are an "incomparable idiot" simply because heaven forbid they mentioned God or GW Bush in a favorable manner once in their life.
I had one of those individuals with his little lap dog follow me onto every topic I posted on demanding I provide proof of God's existence. So regular Joe starts a thread on nice vacation spots I post there and one of these individuals just comes in and makes these demands about my religion and in the process also accuses me of being a bigoted racist. Very disruptive. That individual at least stepped over the line and is no longer here in that incarnation. So a few other posters call out this individual for not sticking with the topic and he in turned blasts them. The thread died a quick death.
Are you suggesting that is the type of message board you enjoy. You've supported these guys in the past, I don't know why. You make some good points when you stick to the subject but you lose every time when you try to make it personal because you are invariably wrong. You don't know me or any of the other posters here from a few words on a message board yet you automatically seem to believe you do. I am an evangelical Christian, you've told me that numerous times. I also follow the RNC dogma and the religious right, Pat Robertson, etc. I didn't even know what an evangelical Christian was until I looked it up, I've been on the RNC site once since I started posting here and that was because a Google search led me to a link on their site. I think Pat Robertson, while having every right to believe and say what he does, is a complete idiot.
So yes, you do make some incredibly wrong statements, and you don't seem to learn from those mistakes either, you continue to say the same things even after being confronted with them.
Stick to the issues and you'll do great, get personal and you lose. You might even find that we agree on most issues, simply at different degrees, possible for different reasons. I know I've been baffled at times why you continue to press certain issues.
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I am an evangelical Christian, you've told me that numerous times. I also follow the RNC dogma and the religious right, Pat Robertson, etc. I didn't even know what an evangelical Christian was until I looked it up, I've been on the RNC site once since I started posting here and that was because a Google search led me to a link on their site.
strider, sometimes it takes a while to get a point across...
i'm stubborn too...maybe? just maybe? you want some "freedom FROM religion" for just a little while
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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I've seen how every person with conservative leanings is ganged up upon and by some individuals called names almost immediately. I find that curious as I would figure that most individuals investing in corporate America would probably be conservative so why is it that liberals dominate this board.
we actually had a lot of really conservative people that posted here... they all seemed to go away when they finally realised how Badly Bush "mislead" the country... esp. about WMD
then you showed up... LOL, after they left and started saying the same things they had been saying and couldn't figure out why people were being so hard on you...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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"I'm here because I was referred (sic) to this board by people........"
And, as you explain, you came here to confront and attack anything and anyone you wanted to believe was anti-Republican, anti-religious, and anti-Bush. My God, man, it's called free speech and you declare it unamerican and unchristian. Then. on at least two occasions, when confronted and asked why you happened to come here , you absolutely denied that you came here intentionally to post pro religious and conservative propaganda. Which lie are we to accept?
"I've seen how every person with conservative leanings is ganged up upon and by some individuals called names almost immediately." "....why is it that liberals dominate this board."
A better question is, why is it that anyone that provides reasoned debate that doesn't begin with the assumptions that the bible is law and far right wing propaganda is absolute fact labeled by you to be an enemy and a liberal. You are attacking some pretty staunch conservatives, here. Open mindedness does not constitute liberalism, but liberalism does expect open mindedness and demands respect of knowledge. Those seem to be your favored targets. Liberals don't dominate this board (as you claim), open discussion does, and that is what you attack!
"...there are plenty of other message boards out there where they can discuss their kids or their cars or hunting and fishing or politics without someone.. saying, they are an "incomparable idiot" simply because heaven forbid they mentioned God or GW Bush in a favorable manner once in their life."
No, one of your difficulties is that anything said about anything that doesn't assume Christianity (as you declare Christianity to be, a very Old Testament sort of Christianity, a bit of a contradictory approach and contradictory to the words of Jesus, if you ask me) and the wishes of the Republican National Committee are the law of the land is declared unamerican. Get this straight, neither of those sources is the law and it is fundamental that applying either as the law is a violation of the Constitution.
Moreover, pointing out that George Bush, with the backing and urging of evangelical far right wing conservative Christian war mongers lied to get the US into a war in Iraq is fact. You are still running around attacking anyone that points that fact out, as if it is an assignment doled out to you by the Party.
"I had one of those individuals with his little lap dog follow me onto every topic I posted on demanding I provide proof of God's existence. So regular Joe starts a thread on nice vacation spots I post there and one of these individuals just comes in and makes these demands about my religion and in the process also accuses me of being a bigoted racist. Very disruptive. That individual at least stepped over the line and is no longer here in that incarnation. So a few other posters call out this individual for not sticking with the topic and he in turned blasts them. The thread died a quick death."
Wasn't that the guy you first demanded provide proof that God doesn't exist or shut up? And didn't you insert that demand into a thread that had nothing to do with that question? Yes you did! So why do you object that he responded by treating you with the same lack of manners?
Hmmmm? Let me ponder that. The thread dies AFTER you attacked him for being disruptive and you blame him? Strange interpretation of cause and effect, my man. Why shouldn't he point out that you are a bigoted racist, since that is a fact that you have proved through your incessant hateful postings?
You exhort at Glassman, "You don't know me or any of the other posters here from a few words on a message board yet you automatically seem to believe you do. I am an evangelical Christian, you've told me that numerous times. I also follow the RNC dogma and the religious right, Pat Robertson, etc."
I ask, do you know Glassman (or anyone else here)? Didn't you, by your own admission above, assume you knew people here and what they were and and what they believed, not from their post here or anywhere, but from rumor and insinuations and accusations you choseto believe on some other board where people that post here had not even posted?
Did you know Glassman is proudly a long time conservative republican? Did you care?
Who here asked you to try to dominate the thinking, debates and religions of this group? That is why you came here, as you now admit. Why should that be an acceptable activity? Can't you recognize arrogant impertinent claims to intellectual integrity when you see them in the mirror?
I don't care if you didn't know you are an evangelical Christian, you are! You do, as you have stated, foster rigid ultra conservative and hard line Christian beliefs and came here only to foster that agenda and attack anyone not in line therewith, i.e., to "drive them out". You are a very sick individual.
"I think Pat Robertson, while having every right to believe and say what he does, is a complete idiot."
I whole heartedly agree! I also point out that the America you claim is what you want is exactly that proposed by Pat Robertson, one where the laws are interpreted according to religious preference rather than the Constitution and where the Constitution is required to foster the bible. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck, it is a duck. Thus, ergo, therefore, consequently, hence, accordingly, and in conclusion, you follow religiously and politically exactly the dogma and disgusting preaching of the "complete idiot", Pat Robertson. You are his intellectual clone.
"I know I've been baffled at times why you continue to press certain issues."
"At times"? Why so modest? You spend all of your time baffled by anything that assumes reason or logic or that hasn't been sanctioned and passed down to the believers by the Party.
You need to get this very firmly settled in your feeble little mean mind! No one here ask you to come here and be disruptive and no one here needs you injecting your hateful religious backwardness into everything that is said or hinted at. Most of the people that post here are proper Christians and the ones that are not have just as much right to whatever beliefs they have and no one with any respect for the Nation we live in has any right to appoint you to interfere with their right to say whatever they want. According to you you are a self appointed guardian of all that is right and proper and what can be said about anything. No such position of authority exists, so you don't hold a position allowing you to appoint yourself as overseer of Allstock's "Off-Topic Post, Non Stock Talk".
Logic and reason is not, by definition, what you say it is. Most often in these discussions, as you can't seem to accept, when logic and reason lead to a conclusion that you see as not confirming your political or religious wishes, then you declare what you want to be logical and reasonable. It doesn't work that way! You are, hopelessly, a logical nincompoop, at best.
Open discussion is NOT anti-Christian or anti-american. Indeed, your wish to prevent and disrupt those is both antichristian and anti-American!
IP: Logged |
You're the one that doesn't get it. The poster said Israel didn't have a right to exist, period. You opted to fixate on the religion issue. His reference was that Israel was not the Biblical Israel, meaning that Israel, the Biblical Israel, the Israel of prophecy in your words no longer existed, this was a new Israel created by artificial means and propped up by artificial means and thus had no right to exist. He made no mention of prophecy, nor did any other poster there except you. Yet you accused others of doing so.
here is what he said:
kilhs Member
posted January 21, 2006 21:32
Israel is like a cibic zirconian, its not the real thing , created by outside world powers, it is not the Israel of the Bible. The people who live within it's modern boundries just had forein powers draw lines around them and renamed the area. If modern Israel is the chosen land then alot of palestinians are gods people. Ha Ha Ha
i see no mention of the lack of right to exist... you are wrong...
i do see that he said:
1)it is not the Israel of the Bible
2)If modern Israel is the chosen land then alot of palestinians are gods people.
so? his references were biblical, and do go directly to prophecies...
i don't agree that Israel just had lines drawn around them which is in agreement with your point... BUT? without US? they wouldn't have been able to draw any of the lines... so kihls is not completely wrong either... go figure??? LOL
do you have any idea how much money we loaned them and then forgiven? we do it for a VERY good reason, but nonetheless? Israel of today is a product of the US policy in the mideast, and has nothing to do with the biblical Israel...
you are the one who stated we have no "freedom from religion" do you still hold to that belief?
because quite frankly i'm sick of other people in many religions looking to bring about the next world war... it's getting worse since Bush took office not better...
i'd rather see religion in public BANNED worldwide tahn to see nukes getting lobbed over the name of God....
and i don't like the idea of banning much of anything...
look at the riots this week over the Prophets cartoon.... disrespectful cartoon? i guess, i haven't even seen it... but to get this kind of response? that's a bad sign for freedom since it is censorship on a grand scale, and the people that are rioting are just looking for a reason to riot... which means political tensions are worsening and quite frankly? that is Bush's fault...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
IP: Logged |
"And, as you explain, you came here to confront and attack anything and anyone you wanted to believe was anti-Republican, anti-religious, and anti-Bush."
Outright lie. I never "explained" anything even remotely similar to that and never attacked anything and anyone I believed was anti-Republican, anti-religious and anti-Bush. Instead YOU attacked me.
"My God, man, it's called free speech and you declare it unamerican and unchristian."
Anothe outright lie. Never declared anyone here unamerican or unchristian and most assuredly never proclaimed free speech to be either.
"Then. on at least two occasions, when confronted and asked why you happened to come here , you absolutely denied that you came here intentionally to post pro religious and conservative propaganda."
Of course I denied it, because you were lying then as you are lying now.
"Which lie are we to accept?"
I for one won't accept any of your lies.
"A better question is, why is it that anyone that provides reasoned debate that doesn't begin with the assumptions that the bible is law and far right wing propaganda is absolute fact labeled by you to be an enemy and a liberal."
Another outright lie, I label no one an enemy and I don't assume the Bible is law and don't follow right wing propaganda. You on the other hand do not provide reasonable debate.
"You are attacking some pretty staunch conservatives, here."
I am? Who?
"Open mindedness does not constitute liberalism, but liberalism does expect open mindedness and demands respect of knowledge."
Strong words coming from an individual with no open mindedness or respect of knowledge. On the contrary, you seem to have an utter lack of knowledge evidenced by your continued assurance that communist nations nearly all became that way through democratic processes, spike bucks are nearly all old or ill, there are 60 some odd communist nations and the Constituition guarentees us a freedom from religion.
"Those seem to be your favored targets. Liberals don't dominate this board (as you claim), open discussion does, and that is what you attack!"
My favored targets are inaccuracies, you post many of them so you become a target when you post them. Open discussion doesn't dominate this board, name calling and personal attacks dominate this board, and you are the worst offender.
"No, one of your difficulties is that anything said about anything that doesn't assume Christianity (as you declare Christianity to be, a very Old Testament sort of Christianity, a bit of a contradictory approach and contradictory to the words of Jesus, if you ask me) and the wishes of the Republican National Committee are the law of the land is declared unamerican. Get this straight, neither of those sources is the law and it is fundamental that applying either as the law is a violation of the Constitution."
Another outright lie. I never made those claims nor support them now.
"Moreover, pointing out that George Bush, with the backing and urging of evangelical far right wing conservative Christian war mongers lied to get the US into a war in Iraq is fact. You are still running around attacking anyone that points that fact out, as if it is an assignment doled out to you by the Party."
As it is not a fact that he lied, and as this has been investigated and determined to be in inaccurate accusation by the Senate, of course I'm going to point out the inaccuracies of anyone who continues to make this claim.
"Wasn't that the guy you first demanded provide proof that God doesn't exist or shut up? And didn't you insert that demand into a thread that had nothing to do with that question? Yes you did! So why do you object that he responded by treating you with the same lack of manners?"
No, wasn't me. LOL, this is getting really funny.
"Hmmmm? Let me ponder that. The thread dies AFTER you attacked him for being disruptive and you blame him? Strange interpretation of cause and effect, my man. Why shouldn't he point out that you are a bigoted racist, since that is a fact that you have proved through your incessant hateful postings?"
Yes let's ponder why you continue to lie and to twist things around. You seem to be the one posting "incessant hateful postings".
"I ask, do you know Glassman (or anyone else here)?"
No, I don't know Glassman at all.
"Didn't you, by your own admission above, assume you knew people here and what they were and and what they believed, not from their post here or anywhere, but from rumor and insinuations and accusations you choseto believe on some other board where people that post here had not even posted?"
WHAT? I don't even know where to begin answering that question because I never assumed I knew anyone here, nor from any rumor or insinuations.
I came here, spent all of one day and was attacked for my religion (which neither of you got right anyway) by 4art and you. I was then followed around by the two of you in I can only guess was some desperate attempt to get me to leave and never come back before I got established here.
"Did you know Glassman is proudly a long time conservative republican?"
No I did not.
"Did you care?"
No, I did not and I still don't. I discuss issues, not personal politics. I debate the individuals posts, not any previous or present allegiences.
"Who here asked you to try to dominate the thinking, debates and religions of this group?"
No one did, who asked you to provide that service?
"That is why you came here, as you now admit."
Another outright lie. I did not come here for that purpose and sure didn't admit to it.
"Why should that be an acceptable activity?
It isn't, that is why I continue to criticise you and point out your lies and inaccuracies.
"Can't you recognize arrogant impertinent claims to intellectual integrity when you see them in the mirror?"
I would if I saw them in the mirror but where I see them is in YOUR posts both previous and present.
"I whole heartedly agree! I also point out that the America you claim is what you want is exactly that proposed by Pat Robertson, one where the laws are interpreted according to religious preference rather than the Constitution and where the Constitution is required to foster the bible."
Outright lie. I never proposed that and instead have strongly supported the Constitution. You simply do not understand the Constitution as you fail to understand most other issues you speak of.
"If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck, it is a duck. Thus, ergo, therefore, consequently, hence, accordingly, and in conclusion, you follow religiously and politically exactly the dogma and disgusting preaching of the "complete idiot", Pat Robertson. You are his intellectual clone."
Outright lie, sorry.
"At times"? Why so modest? You spend all of your time baffled by anything that assumes reason or logic or that hasn't been sanctioned and passed down to the believers by the Party."
One person I'm not baffled about is you. You are very consistent. You are inaccurate, abusive, hatefull, prejudiced and a lier.
"You need to get this very firmly settled in your feeble little mean mind! No one here ask you to come here and be disruptive and no one here needs you injecting your hateful religious backwardness into everything that is said or hinted at. Most of the people that post here are proper Christians and the ones that are not have just as much right to whatever beliefs they have and no one with any respect for the Nation we live in has any right to appoint you to interfere with their right to say whatever they want. According to you you are a self appointed guardian of all that is right and proper and what can be said about anything. No such position of authority exists, so you don't hold a position allowing you to appoint yourself as overseer of Allstock's "Off-Topic Post, Non Stock Talk".
ROTHFLMAO
"Logic and reason is not, by definition, what you say it is."
Actually, it is.
"Most often in these discussions, as you can't seem to accept, when logic and reason lead to a conclusion that you see as not confirming your political or religious wishes, then you declare what you want to be logical and reasonable."
As it would be illogical to use religious or political wishes to determine the accuracy of something, I sure would not declare something logical on those grounds. You do however, very consistently.
"It doesn't work that way!"
Hey you actually got something right, now I suggest you follow your own policy.
"You are, hopelessly, a logical nincompoop, at best."
Describing yourself again. Shouldn't do that.
"Open discussion is NOT anti-Christian or anti-american. Indeed, your wish to prevent and disrupt those is both antichristian and anti-American!"
At least you ended consistently with another lie.
IP: Logged |
According to the scriptures, a truly miserable afterlife awaits you.
But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. -- Luke 6:24
Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. -- James 5:1
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. -- Matthew 19:23-24, Mark 10:23-25
-------------------- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
I stand corrected on the "right to exist" point. I had not reviewed that discussion prior to posting.
Of course I stand by my statement we have no freedom from religion. The Constitution specifically grants us freedom to practice religion, not freedom from seeing religion.
If you want to see religion banned from public, then you are directly counter to the freedoms of the Constitution.
It is Bush's fault that religious tensions are high? You'll have to explain that one to me as I'm missing the connection. Bush is the first President to publically state there should be a Palestinian state. Bush also didn't start the Muslem terrorist attacks worldwide or here in the states. They began long ago, before Bush was even considered as a candidate for President.
IP: Logged |
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