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Stock, All possible's that you have mentioned. The stock could be naked shorted as I have seen it on the Berlin exchange and we all know that spells trouble. This has nothing to do with a week company, those guys just sell fictitious shares to make a buck. As far as WDCO and MDAS, they appear to have been be conducting a lot of mirror trading for several weeks. There is a 500 million float so it is not a far stretch that they may have bought prior to the past runups and just sat on the shares waiting for news like us. The stock is currently oversold and any news could indeed shoot the PPS up drastically. This is just a hard call. The Toyo machine that was PR'd as being delivered to Pro Mold last Monday also stated that the company had been acquired by Plasticon. ???? Has the deal already been done? To many questions and not enough answers. GLTA
-------------------- It will run when you least expect it. :) Posts: 1161 | From: NC | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Dagger Depot: There has to be a way to find out where WDCO is selling these shares from. I'm not real familiar with MM rules, but I think they should have to list where these shares are coming from somewhere. Any suggestions on where to look? Can you just call and ask them?
You can call, but you're only hope is to guess by what they don't tell you and how they don't tell you. If you had a chunk of shares to sell would you want the MM handling your order to tell anyone who calls him up to give out your name or the amount you're selling?
The only information you get in this and similar situations is what they want to tell you because it works for thier best interest, or what is required by law. If they tell you something that works for thier best interest, its usually not in your best interest, IMO.
-------------------- Logic can protect you from the hazards of faith, hope and trust. Posts: 382 | From: California | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Chopper: The Toyo machine that was PR'd as being delivered to Pro Mold last Monday also stated that the company had been acquired by Plasticon. ???? Has the deal already been done? To many questions and not enough answers. GLTA
It takes time to order and deliver a big machine like that. They have not officially closed the deal yet [according to a poster who called the company a couple weeks ago], so I question whether this machine was ordered recently by Plasticon, or was done for existing business reasons by ProMold.
ProMold has an existing business with existing contracts and existing customers that cannot be simply dropped to move production to rebar supports. It makes sense that Plasticon would order the machine, but I can't imagine they could do this without closing the deal first. My guess, and its only a guess, is that this machine order was already in the works at ProMold and Plasticon saw it as a good opportunity for a PR.
-------------------- Logic can protect you from the hazards of faith, hope and trust. Posts: 382 | From: California | Registered: May 2005
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by buckstalker: State...are you saying that you don't beleive the company has been dumping shares...come on man, this has been going on for months now. If not Turek and Plasticon...then who's dumping??
I said I don't believe Turek is dumping anything. I don't. Stockhunter's posts on WDCO etc. are very informative and distinguish very well between fact and informed speculation. As for whether anyone else in PLNI is dumping, I have no opinion.
Posts: 610 | From: DC Metro area | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stockhunter, the machine has been ordered for months now. Howe told me that back in June, he did say that they had one on the way and one more to follow shortly thereafter and 2 more to follow for a taotal of 4. That was in the same conversation that he stated they wanted to do thier own manufacturing because of the problems the sub contracted labor was giving them.
This tells me that they know where they need to be and have gone through with many things that were told to me other than the audit(which tells me thats out of thier hands).
Posts: 952 | From: OH | Registered: Apr 2005
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Thanks for the clarification. It makes sense they had to order well in advance. The PR gave the impression it went to ProMold ["our new manufacturing facility"]. Guess they could order first, then direct where it went later. I do believe we will see a PR about the ProMold closing soon. Sounds like its close to a done deal.
Semco, on the other hand, still has me concerned.
-------------------- Logic can protect you from the hazards of faith, hope and trust. Posts: 382 | From: California | Registered: May 2005
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StockHunter, with all due respect, posting things like that just creates rumors. It's fine to base your own decision on that kind of speculation, but even better to not post it and ask someone in the right position, posting the reply you get to your questions. Assumptions get us no where, and more than not just tend to put a negative slant on things.
-------------------- May your trading build your character as well as your portfolio. Posts: 1763 | Registered: Jan 2005
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Stockhunter... I appreciate your well thought out scenerio...Your assuming that because WDCO is sitting on the ask that the trades are all his...It could be that the major players, AGIS, NITE and SCHB, are running their transactions through him and sitting a couple clicks away...This could simply be nothing else but Naked Shorting...same thing that's happening all over Pennyland...
Posts: 2660 | From: Pennyland USA | Registered: Jun 2004
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I'll take a black day over a red day anytime. 0% is better than the -2 to -10% we've been seeing.
-------------------- Current penny stocks owned: PLNI, VWKM, AMHD. And yet none of them are moving anywhere.... Posts: 401 | From: Iowa | Registered: May 2005
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Not to much longer to go now traded in a very close range to day hope we close at, at least .01
Posts: 6008 | From: phoenix az | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Bearclaw: Stockhunter... I appreciate your well thought out scenerio...Your assuming that because WDCO is sitting on the ask that the trades are all his...It could be that the major players, AGIS, NITE and SCHB, are running their transactions through him and sitting a couple clicks away...This could simply be nothing else but Naked Shorting...same thing that's happening all over Pennyland...
It would be much more concerning to me if these really were naked shorts and not simply a growing company raising cash and making deals. Clearly there needs to be better regulation and oversight regarding the pinks and market maker activity. In my opinion there is no legitimate reason for an equity market maker [not dealing with convertibles or options] to have to naked short a stock. Its a travesty actually, but I'll save my diatribe on that subject for another board.
That being said, these guys [NITE, SCHB, etc...] are not idiots. They do their homework and make decisions based on a logical risk/reward analysis. If these guys feel safe being naked short large quantities of this stock after doing their DD, then I would truly be worried. My analysis of the short risk situation is that this stock could jump dramatically and unexpectedly on a variety of legitimate scenarios. If they see it differently, I could be missing something.
Put yourself in NITEs shoes. With the whole world of pinks out there to chose from, would you play the naked shorting game with a stock that has a heavy positive inflow of buy orders from investors and a strong value proposition? The number of shareholders has ballooned this year. The ratio of orders trading on the offer-to-bid and the volume of stock buys-to-sells is heavily positive. If no one was standing in the way with new shares [e.g. WDCO] then the best way to make a killing is to get long at every possibilty and fade on the offer. It just doesn't make sense to me to try pizzin in the wind here.
-------------------- Logic can protect you from the hazards of faith, hope and trust. Posts: 382 | From: California | Registered: May 2005
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I don't blame any investor to think something might not be on the up and up and i am glad that they post it so i can way all before i make a decision. Remember plni has really worked hard at casting doubt on there credibility that they have now. I myself like the stock and think there is a lot here but i certainly do a double take on all that is said and look for any possible angle. That is something i never used to do with this stock before. Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.
Posts: 6008 | From: phoenix az | Registered: Mar 2005
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Stock... I am convinced that there is not dilution by PLNI...Their credit line is sound ...why would they need cash?
I like how you thought the naked shorting issue through...well thought out as are most all of your posts...
So...if not naked shorting and for discussion sake not dilution...what other resons are there that would explain this activity.??..There have been a significant number of mirror trades the past three weeks...It is obvious to everyone following the L2's that WDCO sitting on the ask is holding this down.
The last time the RSI sat flat at this level for an extended period of two weeks or more was back in 2004. It ran when the RSI broke...What other option are we looking at.??? Who is accumulating these shares.??...and...how do the mirror trades play into this activity???
I hope you don't mind me throwing these out for discussion...
[ October 17, 2005, 16:26: Message edited by: Bearclaw ]
Posts: 2660 | From: Pennyland USA | Registered: Jun 2004
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I really appreciate your questions and reasoning. The best way to figure this out is to reason it out with as many good minds as possible.
As you know, I place the highest probability on the WDCO shares having originated from the 400 million increase in O/S between last 2 reports that were never addressed by management. But for the sake of discussion, lets look at other possibilities.
Now, I can see the last 20 trades on Ameritrade, but can not save the entire day's T&S report. My analysis is from eyeballing the activity. If you know where I can get a detailed T&S so I can put it in excel, that would be helpful.
You mentioned mirror trades. Could you elaborate on how you define mirror trades and give examples before I comment? It means different things to different people. Are the buyers and sellers different? Do prices have to differ or be the same? What time frame? Must quantities match? Sorry to be so technical, but I want to make sure we're on the same page first.
The technicals gave several strong buy signals in recent weeks, by my analysis, only to see dead cat bounces. I believe we're seeing significant accumulation from retail. The road shows, GB, BACs chumming, have resulted in a big increase in the number of shareholders. The demand side is solid, IMO. Many more trades on the offer than the bid. Not sure about the mirror trades, but they should be a wash in regards to net position [if not net price].
The question for me is who is selling and why. But I'd be very interested to know how you think mirror trades play into the picture. Can someone with a large short position be using these trades to get the price down without adding to their position? How would the mechanics work? What are the legalities involved?
Sorry to add more questions than answers, but look forward to your thoughts.
I'm out of here for a while.
-------------------- Logic can protect you from the hazards of faith, hope and trust. Posts: 382 | From: California | Registered: May 2005
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Someone on the HISC board claimed to notice a pattern where certain small share trades, in this case 300 share blocks [worth all of $21] gave a signal to other MMs to walk it down. Normally I discount this stuff, but it happened after someone posted it and then the stock did walk down. Interesting.
The mirror trades have more power to move the stock. "I take out your bid, you then take out my bid, etc... then we'll even out the price later with another trade..." but that leaves a paper trail. I need to read up more on the regulations and enforcement.
To paraphrase Nietzsche: If a regulation falls in the forest and the feds never enforce it, does it make a deterence? [okay, a little tortured but I'm tired...]
-------------------- Logic can protect you from the hazards of faith, hope and trust. Posts: 382 | From: California | Registered: May 2005
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whats up with this stock, why is it heading south. i remember the days when it would be .015-.017 cents but now, its .009 Posts: 326 | From: Orlando, FL | Registered: May 2005
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Stock... The mirror trades I see are within a short period of time...a matter of seconds to minutes...Today, for example, there would be a 500,000 share trade at .0098 and shortly after a 500,000 share trade at .0099. I sometimes see a 500,000 trade followed by a 200,000 and a 300,000. I think that the mirror can be in multiple transactions adding up to the same share total as it's mirror. It's just how it comes across the L2's.
The PPS is different most of the time but I do see them with the same PPS. I did not keep today's activity but have noticed over the past 3 weeks, since WDCO came in the picture, a increase in the number. I mentioned it last week to Chopper. I just did not keep a count. Is this your understanding of a mirror trade?
I know you put the WDCO activity in the realm of the 400 million O/S that has not been accounted for by management. I have not been able to settle this in my mind. I do however feel that WDCO's appearance involves share movement. It's the why I'm struggling with. I think the question of who is accumulating the shares is important as you do. I agree with the retail accumulation and the demand appearing solid.
Now if there is a large short position to bring the price down are they flipping shares within the short position to keep a large accumulation of shares waiting for the expected series of announcements? Good question Stock? That is where I'm looking too. If that is the case do the 400 million O/S really come into play in that scenerio?
Turek has stated his concern with this issue in the recent past. I thought part of Apples coming on board was to look at the naked shorting issue as well as tighten the float and market to new investors. I would think that Apple dealt with the same issues with HISC before the float was tightened, then the news came out and it ran like hell...
The same chart activity happened in September 2004 with PLNI as it is now.. I'm wondering if the naked shorting was prevelant then...of course it went unchecked....If history repeats itself, in terms of the charting, especially the flat RSI under 30%, then we are due for a significant run in the very near future... I guess I'm throwing questions back at you too...Sorry...
Posts: 2660 | From: Pennyland USA | Registered: Jun 2004
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If there are 400 million shares unaccounted for, who is to say the company didnt dump another billion on the market without telling shareholders? Since we are suffering from a lack of audited financial news, is this a possibility?
-------------------- If I give you bad information, please feel free to sue me. I have nothing left anyway. Ed Posts: 1772 | From: Oxford, PA, USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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I do have some info for you guys, Pro Mold is getting close to completion, but not for a few weeks. The 500 Ton Toyo is hooked and and running (in 4 days), not 35 like I heard. There are some Plasitcon orders (small) that are in place. Things are optimistic, but that is all I can say. I never made in to St. Louis, but this is very good intel.
Posts: 221 | From: michigan | Registered: Jun 2005
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StockHunter...here are Mondays T&S....but at this point, I believe that WDCO is dumping for the company...nothing else makes sense. As far as who is absorbing them, well that is another story.
quote:Originally posted by Bearclaw: Stock... The mirror trades I see are within a short period of time...a matter of seconds to minutes...Today, for example, there would be a 500,000 share trade at .0098 and shortly after a 500,000 share trade at .0099. I sometimes see a 500,000 trade followed by a 200,000 and a 300,000. I think that the mirror can be in multiple transactions adding up to the same share total as it's mirror. It's just how it comes across the L2's.
Bear, First, I want to preface this with the disclosure that I've been away from trading professionally for quite a few years so I'm not up on all rule changes regarding the reporting of OTC trades.
A number of legitimate reasons can account for these trades. For instance, if a MM gets a large all-or-nothing(AON) order to sell 500,000 shares at .0098 and does not want to take any risk, he may shop around a .0099 offer for 500,000 (freezing out WDCO who was at .01)to offset the trade. As soon as he finds a buyer, he can fill both sides and take his .0001 or $50 commission. When there's a 500K on one side and a 200K and 300K on the other, it probably means the 500K was the original AON and the other 2 orders represent 2 separate orders pieced together to fill the AON.
Another possibility with multiple prices and similar block sizes could be an averaging scheme. If someone wants to sell 1,000,000 shares at .00985 this can be accomplished by splitting the order into 2 500K blocks at .0098 and .0099. This was much more common before the advent of decimal trading.
There used to be a problem with double reporting of volume on NASDAQ, but not sure how much of a problem it is today. If 2 MMs traded with each other they would each report the trade, and the volume would appear twice, but the size and price would be the same.
Option MMs used to trade with each other back and forth in risk free option spreads, or even the same series, just to create the appearance of volume. No price manipulation, but a fraudulent representation of activity to attract business.
If we could see a time and sales report that showed who was on each side of the trade it would be much more informative. If 2 or more MMs were swaping trades to move the stock up and down it would be easier to spot.
I get suspiscious when there is a heavy flow of trades on one side followed by very small trades that walk the price in the opposite direction. So if there are 20 buys at one price totaling 2 million shares and then a 1000 share sell takes out the bid and the offer immediately drops, that looks fishy. I haven't seen much of that here, though I have seen it in HISC and others.
-------------------- Logic can protect you from the hazards of faith, hope and trust. Posts: 382 | From: California | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ed19363: If there are 400 million shares unaccounted for, who is to say the company didnt dump another billion on the market without telling shareholders? Since we are suffering from a lack of audited financial news, is this a possibility?
The authorized shares are 2.0 billion w/1.8B issued as of the last relevant PR. The company can't increase the authorized shares without a vote, and all shareholders get a vote, so there's only room to issue 200 million more. Of course, if they did want to increase the authorized shares they have the votes to do whatever they want.
-------------------- Logic can protect you from the hazards of faith, hope and trust. Posts: 382 | From: California | Registered: May 2005
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We started the day with almost all buys, but by the end of the day we had 60 trades on upticks, 30 on downticks. Buy to sell volume 7.1M to 3.7M shares. Stock down a tick. I'd hate to see what would happen with more sells than buys.
Too bad they don't have a field for the MM name.
-------------------- Logic can protect you from the hazards of faith, hope and trust. Posts: 382 | From: California | Registered: May 2005
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Stock... I haven't seen a lot of this at the .01 level...I did see it when it broke resistance at .014, 012 and ,011...It traded sideways at those levels also before being brought down to the next support level by taking out the bid with suspeciously low volume...
"I get suspiscious when there is a heavy flow of trades on one side followed by very small trades that walk the price in the opposite direction. So if there are 20 buys at one price totaling 2 million shares and then a 1000 share sell takes out the bid and the offer immediately drops, that looks fishy. I haven't seen much of that here, though I have seen it in HISC and others."
Posts: 2660 | From: Pennyland USA | Registered: Jun 2004
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Plasticon to Complete Pro Mold, Inc. Acquisition on November 9th Tuesday October 18, 8:30 am ET
At Closing, Plasticon Will Receive Plant Equipment and Contracts Valued at Close to $5 Million Annually
LEXINGTON, KY--(MARKET WIRE)--Oct 18, 2005 -- Plasticon International Inc. (Other OTC:PLNI.PK - News) is pleased to announce that the company will meet with Pro Mold, Inc. on November 9th to complete the privately financed acquisition.
"This acquisition is truly a new beginning for Plasticon," said Jim Turek, President and CEO of Plasticon International, Inc. "It brings to closure one phase of the company, and represents the dawn of the next phase of the business. Plasticon will no longer rely on contract manufacturers and we can now control our own destiny through our own proprietary manufacturing methodology. This is a major milestone for the company and represents a great advance in our production capabilities."
Mr. Turek also mentioned that Pro Mold, Inc. is currently profitable and has contracts that are worth close to $5 million annually. "Pro Mold, Inc. is one of the premiere injection molding companies of the Midwest and we look forward to welcoming them to the Plasticon family. As of November 10th, the Pro Mold facilities will be wholly owned by Plasticon, and will become the centerpiece of our manufacturing operations. The Pro Mold facilities allow Plasticon to produce up to $20 million in production and sales annually as is. And with the addition of the new high-capacity molding machine that Plasticon recently purchased, the plant will now be able to produce up to $28 to $30 million in production and sales annually," Mr. Turek said.
-------------------- Current penny stocks owned: PLNI, VWKM, AMHD. And yet none of them are moving anywhere.... Posts: 401 | From: Iowa | Registered: May 2005
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Dagger... Thanks for posting the news. This is significant. Plasticon will be forming what the company will look like in the future with Pro Mold and then the Semco deals...It will take months for things to settle. While the new corporate profile develops it's obvious that sales and revenue will be generated in numbers rarely seen in Pennyland. This is key in the company expanding without building prohibative debt...
I like this plan by Turek...It creates a more than modest profit margin and puts control of production, inventory and expanded profit margins in the company...Very smart business...
No wonder the audit is taking time to get released...It's like taking inventory at Wall Mart in the middle of Chrismas rush...Not an easy task...
PLNI attorneys are tying up loose ends and will have a contract locked, loaded and ready to sign within the next three weeks...Good stuff...
Posts: 2660 | From: Pennyland USA | Registered: Jun 2004
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Good news, even better than he gave us a specific date.
-------------------- You can't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Posts: 713 | From: MD | Registered: Jan 2005
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Looks good thank you Mr. Turek I hope this is a boost to the pps could not ask for a much better pr glta
Posts: 6008 | From: phoenix az | Registered: Mar 2005
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I believe IMHO that NOTHING other than the audit is moving this puppy! I really hope I'm wrong but I dont think so. We havent really moved on a PR for some time. Would love nothing more than to be proved wrong big time!!!!
Posts: 952 | From: OH | Registered: Apr 2005
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CLB I agree that the numbers is what we need to move to .02+...but this news is nice...it gives numbers...a good start for the next month..
quote:Originally posted by clbgroove: I believe IMHO that NOTHING other than the audit is moving this puppy! I really hope I'm wrong but I dont think so. We havent really moved on a PR for some time. Would love nothing more than to be proved wrong big time!!!!
Posts: 2660 | From: Pennyland USA | Registered: Jun 2004
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clbgroove i agree to. To much was talked up about it now it is a super major issue that won't go away
Posts: 6008 | From: phoenix az | Registered: Mar 2005
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I think we are going to have a long climb back to the 2 range. If after all has happened we break 2 then I think 3 will come rather quickly but after that I would have to get out the crystal ball!! lol
5% gain isnt the kind of proving wrong I was hoping for but at least its green!!
Posts: 952 | From: OH | Registered: Apr 2005
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