American gun lobby sets out to revive law of the Wild West saloon Tom Baldwin in Washington It’s the state in which Billy the Kid first shot and killed a man in a saloon bar row, where the Gunfight at the OK Corral became Wild West legend, and the Boothill cemetery is filled with the bodies of itinerant gunslingers too slow to draw.
Now America’s powerful gun lobby is pushing for the introduction of “commonsense” laws in Arizona that would allow people to walk into bars with guns — just as they did in the old days. Tennessee and Georgia have approved the measure in the past year and a similar law is now being considered by Arizona’s state legislature.
Supporters claim that 40 out of 50 US states already allow licensed gun-owners to carry concealed weapons in bars and restaurants.
Gun-control advocates dispute this figure but recognise that they are in retreat across the country with President Obama wary of alienating voters in rural and Western states who have shifted decisively towards the Democrats in recent elections.
Talk of restoring a ban on assault weapons, which triggered a surge in gun sales this year, has now been put on the back burner in the face of strong opposition from Congress.
Every year more than 30,000 Americans die by gunshot, most of them suicides, but at least 10,000 by murder. This is twice the number of 4,316 US soldiers killed in six years of the Iraq war. England and Wales, by contrast, had 50 deaths through gun crime in 2005-06.
The Arizona Bill, which has been approved by the state senate, would give bars discretion over whether to allow patrons to carry guns provided that they do not drink alcohol and do possess a concealed weapons permit.
Some bar owners believe that the measure threatens a throwback to the kind of saloon bar gunfights that once characterised the Wild West.
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise. Posts: 3827 | From: beautiful California | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Every year more than 30,000 Americans die by gunshot, most of them suicides, but at least 10,000 by murder. This is twice the number of 4,316 US soldiers killed in six years of the Iraq war. England and Wales, by contrast, had 50 deaths through gun crime in 2005-06.
I hate stats like this for several reasons. Let's say it's accurate just for the sake of discussion. It's supposing that those nearly 20,000 suicides wouldn't have done the deed without the guns. That's not just illogical, it's rediculous. The 10,000 murders quoted insinuates as well that they wouldn't have taken place if stricter gun laws were in place because of course anyone who's willing to murder wouldn't dare to break a gun possesion law...right.
The England reference is just silly..
Here is the result of no guns in the hands of the People...
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: I hate stats like this for several reasons. Let's say it's accurate just for the sake of discussion. It's supposing that those nearly 20,000 suicides wouldn't have done the deed without the guns. That's not just illogical, it's rediculous. The 10,000 murders quoted insinuates as well that they wouldn't have taken place if stricter gun laws were in place because of course anyone who's willing to murder wouldn't dare to break a gun possesion law...right.
The England reference is just silly..
Here is the result of no guns in the hands of the People...
Forget what you just posted.. this is not about taking gun ownership away from citizens. This is about limiting guns in a very volatile environment where alcohol is served. It's like giving keys to cars to a whole bar that is full of drunks. People may kill people and not guns themselves but when you are letting people carry guns in such an environment you are asking for trouble and you are giving them the means to kill.
You have kids, do you want them going to bars, nightclubs, concerts etc. where everyone or majority have guns and people drink to a stupor and arguments ensue? It's one thing to carry a gun to protect yourself, your family and your property but it's totally different to create a dangerous environment in an establishment.
Where does it end? Geez. Have common sense for once and have some logical limits.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Dont you love how some people think if guns are outlawed we will have peace? That nobody will smuggle guns into the U.S. and use illegally in crimes against innocent civilians? Amazing.
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: Dont you love how some people think if guns are outlawed we will have peace? That nobody will smuggle guns into the U.S. and use illegally in crimes against innocent civilians? Amazing.
We don't think drugs will ever stop flowing into this country but we still outlaw it. Same concept. And btw NO ONE said to outlaw guns. Just limit them. You really can't read well. You must hang out with Thinkmoney alot.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Do me a favor? Could you post a link to the last major 'bar' shooting? Doesn't matter the kind\location. Just the last time a bar fight broke out in gunfire. As the original post stated:
quote:Supporters claim that 40 out of 50 US states already allow licensed gun-owners to carry concealed weapons in bars and restaurants.
Gun-control advocates dispute this figure but recognise that they are in retreat across the country with President Obama wary of alienating voters in rural and Western states who have shifted decisively towards the Democrats in recent elections.
Surely with 40 (ish) states allowing gun in bars there would have to be a major shooting over the juke box tunes every ten minutes or so...right?
Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
Alcohal and guns a real winner for a pea brain and if you really get a good buzz on think of what you can do when you leave the bar.
I wonder how law enforcement feels about that, I bet they are thrilled. The ones I know just can't wait. If this passes and I know it will the police have to approach every body as if they were armed most of all the dui. Phoenix is going to be a real shooting range now just watch since everybody that is hear for more than three years thinks there a cowboy ,I guess I have had my job recession proofed
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise. Posts: 3827 | From: beautiful California | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
we have shootings at "juke joints" down here every weekend.
to understand what a juke joint is? look here:
this place is real and it's known for NOT being a dangerous place.
usually the shootings are in the parking lot and they are over dope or a dice game or somesuch. oh yeah, the dice games are illegal, and of course the dopes illegal too...
as a matter of fact? i think people will behave better if registered/licensed conceal carry people are allowed to carry.
as a group they have very good criminal stats.
however, it would also make sense to require people carrying to be legal to drive too.
in other words? carry and expect a breathalyser
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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I can't believe it but for once I have to agree with Mach. I have a license to carry concealed here in New York. But I never have for one reason, ROAD RAGE!!!! I honestly believe if I had it in my truck I would have used it by now. I distincly remember one occasion where some a--hole from Florida wouldn't let me merge onto the interstate and procceded to try and force me to stay on the shoulder. My newborn son was with me as well as my wife. A well aimed pepsi bottle pursuaded him to get out of my way. Had I had my handgun I have no doubt I would have shot the son of a *****. Summing it up, alcohol and guns don't mix so no one should carry into a bar in the first place that's just asking for trouble. If the article was just about the right to carry concealed then fine but to state it with bars in mind is just asking for it.
Posts: 492 | From: new york | Registered: Jul 2005
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jgrecoconstr, with the utmost sincereity I want to congratulate on understanding your limits. I carry as well and I know several people who have their permits that I never want to be around when they decide to pull.
As far as the bar and guns thing, I don't think alcohol and anything mixes. But you don't see clubs making you give up your keys when you sit down and force you to take a breathalizer to get them back. Yet more people are killed by drunk drivers each year than will EVER be killed by drunk CCW holders.
If you begin to limit where a legally registered gun owner with a felony and violent misdemeanor free record can carry, you start sliding to the place where you can't carry anywhere you would normally be.
Here in Utah, there is relatively few places that I can't carry. One of the big colleges was the last to challenge the state on it...and lost. Other than private homes that tell me they don't want the gun there or federal secure areas we can protect ourselves pretty much anywhere. Yet we still see places that try to ban guns with predictable results...ie Trolley Square.
There is an old saying...
When every second counts...the police are just minutes away.
Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
I also carry, but up here in Michigan we are EXTREMELY limited to where we can legally carry...
a licensee shall NOT carry a concealed pistol at a school, on school property, day care center, child placing agency, sports arena, bar or tavern licensed to serve liquor, church, synagogue, mosque, temple or other place of worship, entertainment facility seating more than 2500 people, hospital, dormitory or classroom of a college or university or a casino...
So....just about anywhere that I would need to carry a weapon...I can't
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It's all in the timing... Posts: 4303 | From: DSA | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
OK honest question........ would you take one into a bar??? Honestly with a choice of a bar or on the road I would carry into a bar. I rarely drink and usually am a whoredog after a few so not inclined to fight which is where carrying into a bar is a no-no for most people
Posts: 492 | From: new york | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by jgrecoconstr: I can't believe it but for once I have to agree with Mach. I have a license to carry concealed here in New York. But I never have for one reason, ROAD RAGE!!!! I honestly believe if I had it in my truck I would have used it by now. I distincly remember one occasion where some a--hole from Florida wouldn't let me merge onto the interstate and procceded to try and force me to stay on the shoulder. My newborn son was with me as well as my wife. A well aimed pepsi bottle pursuaded him to get out of my way. Had I had my handgun I have no doubt I would have shot the son of a *****. Summing it up, alcohol and guns don't mix so no one should carry into a bar in the first place that's just asking for trouble. If the article was just about the right to carry concealed then fine but to state it with bars in mind is just asking for it.
Thank you for seeing what I mean. Sometimes certain things need limitations and like we both said alcohol + guns do not mix. Where does it end? Next you can carry knives, razors etc. into concerts as well as guns. Not to be prejudice but here in NY with the Hip Hop crowd, them carrying guns to clubs and bars would be a disaster. foughetboutit ....
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: I also carry, but up here in Michigan we are EXTREMELY limited to where we can legally carry...
a licensee shall NOT carry a concealed pistol at a school, on school property, day care center, child placing agency, sports arena, bar or tavern licensed to serve liquor, church, synagogue, mosque, temple or other place of worship, entertainment facility seating more than 2500 people, hospital, dormitory or classroom of a college or university or a casino...
So....just about anywhere that I would need to carry a weapon...I can't
I'm glad for it... especially where alcohol is served like bars and casinos where tempers fly over stupid things...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: Morning, Mach.
Do me a favor? Could you post a link to the last major 'bar' shooting? Doesn't matter the kind\location. Just the last time a bar fight broke out in gunfire.
Let me post this quickly because i tend to get booted in the last 2 days. Wasn't able to reply to Glass's post on rubies this morning because of that.
You were saying? That is just 3 that I posted. There are others.
quote:Surely with 40 (ish) states allowing gun in bars there would have to be a major shooting over the juke box tunes every ten minutes or so...right?
I don't believe the 40ish claim. But anyways that is not the point. Men (and sometimes women) are adolescents when they are drunk and I don't know about you but I have seen more bar and club fights then i care to remember. Those were with fists and I can only imagine the disaster if those same bar fights I witnessed involved guns because everyone or most people in those establishments were carrying while intoxicated.
And even though a bars employees/owners are not required to take everyones' keys when they enter a bar they are required to stop someone from driving drunk if they are aware that person is driving that night and it is quite obvious they had too many drinks. Not all places but I have seen court cases where a drunk driver could of been prevented. The same with guns in such establishments. If people are not allowed to carry them inside a bar or club then the worst that can happen most times would be a regular bar fight with fists which at least in almost all cases everyone is alive though their ego's would be bruised if they lost the fight.
Not so with a gun fight where even innocent bystanders could get hit by you even if you are a crackshot. Drinking impairs you and as much as most of you would like to brag you can "drink and shoot", I am sure most drivers say the same about 'drinking and driving".
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: Morning, Mach.
Do me a favor? Could you post a link to the last major 'bar' shooting? Doesn't matter the kind\location. Just the last time a bar fight broke out in gunfire.
Here is some more stories but a little more famous. Knock yourself out reading outside of Utah's world:
Thanks for taking the time to post those links. I did happen to notice a running theme with them though...
Not a single one mentioned that the violence was caused by a legal concealed carry permit holder.
None.
In fact, two of the stories actually mentioned that the perpetrator was carrying ILLEGALLY.
Known in some circles as P. Diddy's "fall guy", rapper and one time P. Diddy protege, Jamal "Shyne" Barrow was found guilty of first-degree assault, gun possession, and reckless endangerment in a 1999 New York Club shooting incident.
and
According to police, Burress could face criminal charges if he is not licensed to carry a concealed weapon in New York.
Gun laws don't stop the people who are already carrying illegally. They only prevent the law abiding citizen's from defending themselve.
Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: So....just about anywhere that I would need to carry a weapon...I can't
And that's the rub, Retired. Someone thinks it would be 'dangerous' for law abiding citizens to be armed in a specific place, like a school. Then the same 'logic' is used to extend the prohibition to another place...then another...then another. Soon enough, you can legally own a gun, maybe even carry one...just not anywhere that you might need one.
Just out of curiosity, what do you use for your carry? Nunya is a perfectly fine answer.
Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
The state of AZ has very loose gun laws you don't need a permit to carry in plain site lots of people do you see them Sunday morning buying a news paper with thier pistol straped on no big deal for a concealed permit a one hour test at the third grade level gets it for you but you could not be using alcohal premit or not if this bill passes you can carry in a bar,
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise. Posts: 3827 | From: beautiful California | Registered: Sep 2008
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I dont get what the hysteria is. People carry guns into casinos more than most think. They think if guns are banned or not allowed somewhere that they wont be there.
Anyone remember the Hell's Agnels and Mongols fight in the casino? Shootings, brass knuckles, you name it.
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Not a single one mentioned that the violence was caused by a legal concealed carry permit holder.
You know more then me that every city or state has their own laws about legal concealment. So unless we know the law for that particular jurisdiction in the cases I linked your point is mute but that doesn't matter. The point really is that alcohol and guns do not mix with male testerone and is a recipe for disaster.
quote:In fact, two of the stories actually mentioned that the perpetrator was carrying ILLEGALLY.
Known in some circles as P. Diddy's "fall guy", rapper and one time P. Diddy protege, Jamal "Shyne" Barrow was found guilty of first-degree assault, gun possession, and reckless endangerment in a 1999 New York Club shooting incident.
NYC has a "on-premises" law only not a carry one. So his gun was probably legally licensed but not for anything other then his home or a firing range. That is the "illegal" part that I gathered from his case.
quote:According to police, Burress could face criminal charges if he is not licensed to carry a concealed weapon in New York.
Key word in that statement you quoted: IF. It didn't say it WAS illegal because that particular article didn't find out yet IF it was an illegally unlicensed gun. Again licensed or not does not matter in the stories I linked. What could go wrong in an establishment where alcohol is served is the point. The issue is not licensing to own a gun but where you can carry a gun.
quote:Gun laws don't stop the people who are already carrying illegally. They only prevent the law abiding citizen's from defending themselve.
Again gun ownership is not the issue. The issue is where you can carry.Carrying any weapon in an alcohol environment where alcohol impairment puts aside reasonable logic is just plain stupid. I do not have an issue with bar/club etc. owners owning and carrying guns in their business premises for protection from robberies and such. But i do have issues with non employees/owners carrying them in a bar where they get drunk, rowdy and start fights.
Much smoking laws were enacted so non smokers do not have to smoke 2nd hand smoke. Gun laws banning carrying in a bar should be enacted or kept in place to avoid violence in a volatile environment where drinking gets out of control and tempers flare up. Settle things with a fist and not a gun. At least the only thing hurt in such a situation is someone's ego.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: I dont get what the hysteria is. People carry guns into casinos more than most think. They think if guns are banned or not allowed somewhere that they wont be there.
That is not the point. If a law is in place then someone who owns a gun is more likely not to carry one in such a place for fear of getting charged with possession in a place. And if someone carry's a gun into a place then the owner can ask that person to leave it outside in their car or whatever or not be allowed into the place.
quote:Anyone remember the Hell's Agnels and Mongols fight in the casino? Shootings, brass knuckles, you name it.
Yes I remember and it's exactly the perfect case why they should not be allowed into a casino/bar etc. Knowing the Angels and Mongols reputations they should of been checked with metal detectors at the door much like most people are at a concert. That incident was the casino's fault imo.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: So....just about anywhere that I would need to carry a weapon...I can't
And that's the rub, Retired. Someone thinks it would be 'dangerous' for law abiding citizens to be armed in a specific place, like a school. Then the same 'logic' is used to extend the prohibition to another place...then another...then another. Soon enough, you can legally own a gun, maybe even carry one...just not anywhere that you might need one.
Just out of curiosity, what do you use for your carry? Nunya is a perfectly fine answer.
I agree 100%...most gun laws are idiotic I carry a Kimber Ultra CDP in 45 cal.
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It's all in the timing... Posts: 4303 | From: DSA | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: I agree 100%...most gun laws are idiotic
Actually there not. They are there to protect innocent bystanders from trigger happy people like you when you are drunk, in a rage etc. At least someone who owns guns in this forum admits alcohol + guns are a bad mix.
Guns imo should only be for protection of your property, family and hunting. Bars/clubs doesn't fall into neither of these.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Nice choice. I tried to carry my Glock 22 but it's profile made for some interesting clothing choices.
Decided that unless I want to dress heavier than weather dictated I needed something smaller. Using a Ruger LCP with .380 hollows. Can carry that under anything more covering than speedos. ;P
Some humor for you, glass, cow and the rest of us gun folk.
quote:At least someone who owns guns in this forum admits alcohol + guns are a bad mix.
Mach, noone has said that gun and alcohol DO mix. We're just saying that ANY time you tell the law abiding citizens that they HAVE to be DEFENSELESS, you invite predators that know they have sheep to feed on.
Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: Mach, noone has said that gun and alcohol DO mix. We're just saying that ANY time you tell the law abiding citizens that they HAVE to be DEFENSELESS, you invite predators that know they have sheep to feed on.
Oh ok i get it. You can't settle a dispute with your fists. I getcha.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: I agree 100%...most gun laws are idiotic
Actually there not. They are there to protect innocent bystanders from trigger happy people like you when you are drunk, in a rage etc. At least someone who owns guns in this forum admits alcohol + guns are a bad mix.
Guns imo should only be for protection of your property, family and hunting. Bars/clubs doesn't fall into neither of these.
Actually they are idiotic...and only an idiot would think otherwise...
BTW...I am NOT a trigger happy drunk...in fact I rarely drink, nor have I ever shot anyone...
You state that guns "should" only be for the protection of my property and my family....What about myself? Should I be allowed to protect myself? If so, please explain to me WHY I shouldn't be allowed to carry a concealed weapon to "protect myself" if I go into a bar, sit down and order a coke with some friends? Or for that matter...WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself wherever I go?
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It's all in the timing... Posts: 4303 | From: DSA | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: Next time you get mugged by a guy with a gun\knife, Mach? Challenge him to a fist fight and see how far you get.
Now that doesn't make sense. Why would a mugger mug me in a bar full of people?
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: Actually they are idiotic...and only an idiot would think otherwise...
Ahh the insults start from you and then you'll say I started it first... As for the laws themselves, that is your opinion and my opinion and not facts. Were both entitled to our opinions.
quote:BTW...I am NOT a trigger happy drunk...in fact I rarely drink, nor have I ever shot anyone...
Yet, but someday you could be in a bar having the worst day of your life because someone you love died tragically, lost your job or your wife and kids left you. There you are drinking yourself into a stupor and someone insults you or you perceive someone did and you draw your gun because you can't think straight due to your drinking... maybe you shoot or maybe you don't but if you do you could miss and hit someone minding his own business by accident...
quote:You state that guns "should" only be for the protection of my property and my family....What about myself? Should I be allowed to protect myself? If so, please explain to me WHY I shouldn't be allowed to carry a concealed weapon to "protect myself" if I go into a bar, sit down and order a coke with some friends? Or for that matter...WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself wherever I go?
Now you wouldn't need a gun would you if it was banned from such places and more times then none no one in that place has one as well? But if a law passes permitting it then you will have to carry one and always looking over your shoulder wondering who will pull one on you instead of you enjoying that coke with your friends care free.
Will guns stop from going into bars due to the law? realistically no. But it will limit them and keep them to a minimal. Most bar fights or 99% of them end up in fist fights without any serious injuries except bruised egos. Pass those laws allowing it and watch how much gun violence in such places will increase then before the laws... simple as that... and logical...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: Actually they are idiotic...and only an idiot would think otherwise...
Ahh the insults start from you and then you'll say I started it first... As for the laws themselves, that is your opinion and my opinion and not facts. Were both entitled to our opinions.
quote:BTW...I am NOT a trigger happy drunk...in fact I rarely drink, nor have I ever shot anyone...
Yet, but someday you could be in a bar having the worst day of your life because someone you love died tragically, lost your job or your wife and kids left you. There you are drinking yourself into a stupor and someone insults you or you perceive someone did and you draw your gun because you can't think straight due to your drinking... maybe you shoot or maybe you don't but if you do you could miss and hit someone minding his own business by accident...
quote:You state that guns "should" only be for the protection of my property and my family....What about myself? Should I be allowed to protect myself? If so, please explain to me WHY I shouldn't be allowed to carry a concealed weapon to "protect myself" if I go into a bar, sit down and order a coke with some friends? Or for that matter...WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself wherever I go?
Now you wouldn't need a gun would you if it was banned from such places and more times then none no one in that place has one as well? But if a law passes permitting it then you will have to carry one and always looking over your shoulder wondering who will pull one on you instead of you enjoying that coke with your friends care free.
Will guns stop from going into bars due to the law? realistically no. But it will limit them and keep them to a minimal. Most bar fights or 99% of them end up in fist fights without any serious injuries except bruised egos. Pass those laws allowing it and watch how much gun violence in such places will increase then before the laws... simple as that... and logical...
You still haven't answered my question...you have done nothing more than sidestepped the question and spewed more of your head in the clouds idealistic bullsh!t.
"Bad Guys" (you know the people in this world that don't obey the laws)...those are the ones that I want to protect myself from...and they are the ones that will still carry a gun into a bar whether the law says they can or not...so I will ask you again...
WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself from that element of society WHEREVER I go??
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It's all in the timing... Posts: 4303 | From: DSA | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself from that element of society WHEREVER I go??
The simple answer is because the government (state or federal) doesn't trust you, Retired; or anyone else to take care of themselves.
Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: You still haven't answered my question...you have done nothing more than sidestepped the question and spewed more of your head in the clouds idealistic bullsh!t.
I have answered your question. If you are not able to read then i suggest someone help you with that problem because it's not my problem.
quote:"Bad Guys" (you know the people in this world that don't obey the laws)...those are the ones that I want to protect myself from...and they are the ones that will still carry a gun into a bar whether the law says they can or not...so I will ask you again...
WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself from that element of society WHEREVER I go??
Let me ask you this first. Why do i have to be subjected to an environment full of guns because of people like you who are paranoid wherever you go?
I have been going to bars, clubs and other alcohol related places since the age of 18. I am now 37. And not once have I seen a bar fight where weapons were used. Only fists and New York by everyone's account is a dangerous place.
Right now imo gun related violence is a minimal and when i mean gun related I mean from squabbles between drunks not robberies. If guns are legally allowed in establishments that serve alcohol I have no doubt in my mind that gun related fights will increase due to impairment from drinking.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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