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Author Topic: American gun lobby sets out to revive law of the Wild West saloon
buckstalker
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quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
You still haven't answered my question...you have done nothing more than sidestepped the question and spewed more of your head in the clouds idealistic bullsh!t.

I have answered your question. If you are not able to read then i suggest someone help you with that problem because it's not my problem.

quote:
"Bad Guys" (you know the people in this world that don't obey the laws)...those are the ones that I want to protect myself from...and they are the ones that will still carry a gun into a bar whether the law says they can or not...so I will ask you again...

WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself from that element of society WHEREVER I go??

Let me ask you this first. Why do i have to be subjected to an environment full of guns because of people like you who are paranoid wherever you go?

I have been going to bars, clubs and other alcohol related places since the age of 18. I am now 37. And not once have I seen a bar fight where weapons were used. Only fists and New York by everyone's account is a dangerous place.

Right now imo gun related violence is a minimal and when i mean gun related I mean from squabbles between drunks not robberies. If guns are legally allowed in establishments that serve alcohol I have no doubt in my mind that gun related fights will increase due to impairment from drinking.

No...you have NOT answered my question...you have once again spewed your twisted logic to support your idealistic view of the world...

Evidently you are unable to answer the one simple question I have posed to you because the ONLY logical answer that you could possibly give will contradict your position on this matter...

WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself WHEREVER I go?

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It's all in the timing...

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buckstalker
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quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
quote:
WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself from that element of society WHEREVER I go??
The simple answer is because the government (state or federal) doesn't trust you, Retired; or anyone else to take care of themselves.
Ahhh. but the government (state, federal, or local) CANNOT protect me...so I will ask again...

WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself WHEREVER I go?

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It's all in the timing...

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
No...you have NOT answered my question...you have once again spewed your twisted logic to support your idealistic view of the world...

Evidently you are unable to answer the one simple question I have posed to you because the ONLY logical answer that you could possibly give will contradict your position on this matter...

WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself WHEREVER I go?

Umm doesn't contradict anything other then your paranoia... You are absolutely ignoring anything I say and you know it...

I already said 99% of all bar fights end up in fist fights not gun fights... therefor it is suffice to say that your chances of getting into a gun fight with another gun wielding drunk when the law says it is illegal to carry one in a bar imo is about the same chances you have of being in a plane crash... so therefor there is no damn reason for you to carry a gun in a bar if your chances are slim to none of running into and getting into a fight with another gun carrier... BUT if such a law permits it then by all means carry one in a bar because then i have no doubt the majority of bar customers will be carrying... understand? Here in simple terms:

1.Law doesnt pass >> almost no guns if any therefor your chances of a gun fight are same as a plane crash

2.Law passes >> majority customers will be packing and your justify in carrying one yourself because of that. Most likely an increase in gun related bar fights due to most carrying guns and ending drunk disputes with a gun.

Anything more you want me to translate for you?

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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CashCowMoo
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Well pardner, I'm gonna git on Ol' Paint and ride the fences lookin' for stray liberals. If'n I find some rustlers, we'll have ourselves a lil necktie party. Saddle up, Hoss, we're burnin' daylight!

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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tmanfromtexas
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Umm doesn't contradict anything other then your paranoia...

Most folks that carry a gun arent paranoid, they are prepared.

As far as restricting guns at establishments it leads to more restrictions. Its like putting a frog in a pot of water and slowly turning the heat up. He doesnt notice until he is cooked.

Look at the stats of Chicago last weekend. They have the strictest gun enforcement in the country but they had 11 murders and several others shot by non law abiding citizens. The law abiding unarmed citizens are absolutely helpless when it comes to this lawlessness. Guns in the hands of law abiding citizens, no matter where they are, creates paranoia for the non law abiding citizens. Thats the way it should be. TMAN...

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The Bigfoot
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And every law in the books in Chicago is a reflection of gun violence. Those laws are in response to the problem...not the problem.

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CashCowMoo
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Exactly bigfoot they are NOT the problem so why are they going after guns when the REAL problem is something else?

Its called a left wing agenda, and Chicago politics lives through it!!

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
Exactly bigfoot they are NOT the problem so why are they going after guns when the REAL problem is something else?

Its called a left wing agenda, and Chicago politics lives through it!!

And what is the problem in a bar Ole Wise one? Alcohol? We already know that alcohol + ego/testerone equals bar fights in a bar but putting guns into the mix makes it worst...

i rather a fight end in a good ole fist fight then a gun fight where the potentional for death to happen is quite apparent as well as innocent bystanders getting hit by a bullet due to grown men acting even more like children under the influence of scotch...

You have a right to own a gun to protect YOUR property, family and your life but you do not have the right to carry a gun wherever you please especially a public domain environment like a bar where the potentional for violence due TO alcohol increases...

If anything to compromise with you right wing fanatics I would say leave it to the bar owner's discretion whether he wants his patrons to bring guns into HIS/HER establishment or not... It is their business and/or property... my guess is the majority of the bar owners would be against letting anyone bring a gun into his/her establishment... [Wink]

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

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buckstalker
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quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
[QUOTE]

You have a right to own a gun to protect YOUR property, family and your life but you do not have the right to carry a gun wherever you please especially a public domain environment like a bar where the potentional for violence due TO alcohol increases...

LOL...you just made my case...

You stated that "I" have a right to own a gun to protect "MYSELF", and you also state that a bar is a place with increased potential for violence...

Why then shouldn't "I" be allowed to protect "MYSELF" in a place with an increased potential for violence...those are the type of places that "I" most want to be prepared to protect "MYSELF"...

and don't start spewing crap about how it will affect you, innocent bystanders, or any more of your lame hypothetical situations...

I want you to explain to me why "I" shouldn't be allowed to protect "MYSELF" in a place with an increased potential for violence...or for that matter...WHEREVER I go!!!

Here is a hint as to what I am looking for in an answer to my question: the key words above are "I" and "MYSELF"...those are the 2 words that you have chosen to exclude in your previous answers...

I specifically want to know why "I" shouldn't be allowed to protect "MYSELF"...

Get It?

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It's all in the timing...

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The Bigfoot
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LOL Cow. I was saying that the LAWS are not the problems as T-man was inferring...that they are in response to a problem of violence.

If we want to quantify the "problem" I would say it is a combination of Education, Population Density, and illegal (or legal but improper) trade.

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The Bigfoot
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By bringing a gun into a bar it could be construed that 'you' are increasing the elevated potential of violence. 'You' turn into the elevated risk that 'you' are protecting 'yourself' from for all the rest of the patrons in the bar.

Don't cha get the irony here? 'You' are carrying a gun in a bar to protect 'yourself' from a hypothetical man with a gun in a bar and defending 'your' right by claiming 'you' are responsible enough to carry a gun in a bar which is shielding the hypothetical man whom 'you' are carrying a gun in a bar to protect 'yourself' from and thereby removing the ability of the legal system to contain that hypothetical man with a gun in a bar.

'You' are protecting 'yourself' from 'yourself' and in insisting on 'your' right to do so wherever 'you' want 'you' are championing a form of lawlessness which is exactly what 'you' are trying to protect 'yourself' from.

LOL

Honestly though, I don't really care. The "Bans Guns on the Premises" signs have always been a joke. Was only a matter of time before someone pointed it out.

P.S. Innocent bystanders are not lame hypothetical crap. They are killed every day.

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buckstalker
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BF...I will bet you 10 to 1 that ANY bar you walk into ANYWHERE in this country, there will be at least 1 person carrying a gun, whether it is legal or illegal to do so...so they are NOT hypothetical...they are in fact very real

BTW...I am NOT worried about the people carrying legally, therefore I am NOT looking to protect myself from myself...If someone has gone through the training and licensing process that enables them to carry a concealed weapon legally...then they are not a threat to me...

I don't live in the same "perfect" world that you and Mach live in...the world I live in is full of "bad guys" with guns, and I believe that I should have the right to protect myself at all times wherever I go...

It is "YOUR" paranoia that wants to prevent me from doing so...

P.S. The lame hypothetical crap I was referring to was Mach's story about me losing a loved one, going into a bar to drown my sorrows, and then shooting someone in a drunken rage because they pissed me off...and his concern for "innocent bystanders" is not an acceptable answer as to why I shouldn't be allowed to protect myself from becoming an innocent bystander...

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It's all in the timing...

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The Bigfoot
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Retired...someone pulls a gun... are you gonna ask them if they have a license before you pull in turn? I doubt it.

Ok...yah, that is a little bit too much of a romantically sorrowful plot to swallow.

Then again, McNair's 20 year old mistress shot him when she found out he was cheating on her (DUH) so sometimes those lame plots do act out in real life.

I'm backing out of the argument though cause I am not interested in if you can carry in parks or in bars. If you can carry then you can carry to my mind. I just want better screening on who can carry and better controls on who can obtain a gun (especially in the secondary market).

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No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues.

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:


LOL...you just made my case...

You stated that "I" have a right to own a gun to protect "MYSELF", and you also state that a bar is a place with increased potential for violence...

Why then shouldn't "I" be allowed to protect "MYSELF" in a place with an increased potential for violence...those are the type of places that "I" most want to be prepared to protect "MYSELF"...


I didn't make your case for nothing... you still don't get it... yes a bar is a place for violence potentially but if you add guns to the equation those violent fights will end up in deaths... either yours or theirs for stupid drunken reasons... 9 out of 10 fights end up in fist fights and perhaps 1 out of 10 end up with some sort of weapon involved... bring guns into that and i have no doubt those numbers will change to perhaps 5 out of 10 will end in a gun fight or higher...

Yes a bar has potentional for violence but guns in a bar has a higher potentional for deaths vs just a bruised up face in a fist fight... and it doesn't matter if a gun owner "legally" owns the gun because alcohol impairs that "legal" gun owner and if you are not drunk then you are forced to shoot that "legal" gun owner that perhaps wouldn't have that gun in the first place if guns were not allowed to be in that bar.. therefor you two would end up in a fist fight or if you did the right thing you would walk away from the fight altogether and no one would be hurt or dead...

Guns allowed in a bar = more likely for gun fights and deaths due to alcohol impairing judgement and use of gun. More likely to pull a gun then a fist.

No guns allowed in a bar = Fight starts and ends in a fist fight or the sober one walking away with no fist fight ensuing.Less likely for gun violence and only bruised egos will be the result.

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:

BTW...I am NOT worried about the people carrying legally, therefore I am NOT looking to protect myself from myself...If someone has gone through the training and licensing process that enables them to carry a concealed weapon legally...then they are not a threat to me...


Does that training train them to drink alcohol til drunk and not lose their temper? Does it train them to not pull a gun first if not threatened with one and instead end the fight in fists? I bet not...

So therefor yes that "legal and trained" gun owner is a threat to you because one factor you keep forgetting. A Bar is a place pretty much to drink alcohol and get drunk. Not to drink a coke or 7 Up though some do. Go into any bar ANYWHERE and i bet the majority if not all are drinking alcohol.

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
By bringing a gun into a bar it could be construed that 'you' are increasing the elevated potential of violence. 'You' turn into the elevated risk that 'you' are protecting 'yourself' from for all the rest of the patrons in the bar.

Don't cha get the irony here? 'You' are carrying a gun in a bar to protect 'yourself' from a hypothetical man with a gun in a bar and defending 'your' right by claiming 'you' are responsible enough to carry a gun in a bar which is shielding the hypothetical man whom 'you' are carrying a gun in a bar to protect 'yourself' from and thereby removing the ability of the legal system to contain that hypothetical man with a gun in a bar.

'You' are protecting 'yourself' from 'yourself' and in insisting on 'your' right to do so wherever 'you' want 'you' are championing a form of lawlessness which is exactly what 'you' are trying to protect 'yourself' from.

LOL

Honestly though, I don't really care. The "Bans Guns on the Premises" signs have always been a joke. Was only a matter of time before someone pointed it out.

P.S. Innocent bystanders are not lame hypothetical crap. They are killed every day.

I totally agree with BF and he says it best as usual. Listen to BF Retired... he's a wise man and very rational...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
LOL Cow. I was saying that the LAWS are not the problems as T-man was inferring...that they are in response to a problem of violence.


That always seems to fly over MooMoo's head BF... he thinks these proposed laws come out of nowhere with no rational behind them... he tends to not understand that laws for the most part are reactive to a problem..

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
I just want better screening on who can carry and better controls on who can obtain a gun (especially in the secondary market).

This has nothing to do with the bar issue but it is how i feel about the gun issue in general... as always you say it best in less words then me lol

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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buckstalker
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quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
Retired...someone pulls a gun... are you gonna ask them if they have a license before you pull in turn? I doubt it.


No, but if they threaten me I am going to be able to defend myself, whereas you could end up as an "innocent bystander"...

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buckstalker
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quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:


LOL...you just made my case...

You stated that "I" have a right to own a gun to protect "MYSELF", and you also state that a bar is a place with increased potential for violence...

Why then shouldn't "I" be allowed to protect "MYSELF" in a place with an increased potential for violence...those are the type of places that "I" most want to be prepared to protect "MYSELF"...


I didn't make your case for nothing... you still don't get it... yes a bar is a place for violence potentially but if you add guns to the equation those violent fights will end up in deaths... either yours or theirs for stupid drunken reasons... 9 out of 10 fights end up in fist fights and perhaps 1 out of 10 end up with some sort of weapon involved... bring guns into that and i have no doubt those numbers will change to perhaps 5 out of 10 will end in a gun fight or higher...

Yes a bar has potentional for violence but guns in a bar has a higher potentional for deaths vs just a bruised up face in a fist fight... and it doesn't matter if a gun owner "legally" owns the gun because alcohol impairs that "legal" gun owner and if you are not drunk then you are forced to shoot that "legal" gun owner that perhaps wouldn't have that gun in the first place if guns were not allowed to be in that bar.. therefor you two would end up in a fist fight or if you did the right thing you would walk away from the fight altogether and no one would be hurt or dead...

Guns allowed in a bar = more likely for gun fights and deaths due to alcohol impairing judgement and use of gun. More likely to pull a gun then a fist.

No guns allowed in a bar = Fight starts and ends in a fist fight or the sober one walking away with no fist fight ensuing.Less likely for gun violence and only bruised egos will be the result.

No Mach...you don't get it

There are already guns present in just about ANY bar you walk into right now...that is a FACT

Guns allowed in a bar = law abiding, responsible adults have the ability to protect themselves against non law abiding criminals who will carry a gun into a bar whether it is legal or not...

No guns allowed in a bar = law abiding, responsible adults are unable to protect themselves from non law abiding criminals who will carry a gun into a bar whether it is legal or not...

BTW...I would also like to have the ability to protect myself from ANY other weapon a criminal might choose to use...(gun, knife, pool stick, beer bottle, etc).

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It's all in the timing...

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
No Mach...you don't get it

There are already guns present in just about ANY bar you walk into right now...that is a FACT

Guns allowed in a bar = law abiding, responsible adults have the ability to protect themselves against non law abiding criminals who will carry a gun into a bar whether it is legal or not...

No guns allowed in a bar = law abiding, responsible adults are unable to protect themselves from non law abiding criminals who will carry a gun into a bar whether it is legal or not...

BTW...I would also like to have the ability to protect myself from ANY other weapon a criminal might choose to use...(gun, knife, pool stick, beer bottle, etc).

What you don't get is that alcohol makes people stupid law abiding or not... so that you may walk into a bar and be able to legally carry a gun in that bar but by the end of the night and a few drinks later all rationale goes out the window and that "law abiding" citizen will think with a gun first when insulted or otherwise... even if the other guy is unarmed... that is what you do not get...

Alcohol doesn't discriminate between criminals and law abiders... it impairs you no matter who you are... and btw in my 37 years I have not once been in a bar where someone was carrying a gun... not once and i can say that confidently and I can also say not once has any bar fight i seen start or end with a weapon used... only fists... and NY is considered a dangerous place... i guess that says alot about your part of the country and other parts...

and if you still do not get that no guns allowed in a bar equals less likely to be confronted with a gun then there is no point in debating this... pass your carry guns in all bars law and i'll let you worry about the guy sitting next to you and the guy sitting next to him etc... I'll go to my local bar and have a drink and sit at ease knowing there is no guns in the bars i frequent... At least one legal gun owning board member in this thread see's what i mean with mixing drinks and guns is not a good idea...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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SeekingFreedom
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Mr Paine said it best:

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."

Thomas Paine

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Machiavelli
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James Madison, President of the United States, 1751-1836:

If men were angels, no government would be necessary.

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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SeekingFreedom
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I like Madison.


‘‘[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation (where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.’’

— James Madison, Federalist, No. 46.

"Americans need never fear their government because of the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation."

-James Madison

" [The governments of Europe] are afraid to trust the people with arms. ... Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors"

-James Madison



And one more just for you, Mach. [Smile]

"Among other causes of misfortune which your not being armed brings upon you, it makes you despised...."

-Niccolo Machiavelli

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buckstalker
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quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
James Madison, President of the United States, 1751-1836:

If men were angels, no government would be necessary.

Key word here "IF" problem is they "ARE NOT"

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It's all in the timing...

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IMAKEMONEY
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JUST GOT MY CWL IN CA, SWEET!

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LIFE IS 10% HOW YOU MAKE IT AND 90% HOW YOU TAKE IT!

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SeekingFreedom
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Congrats, Imake. Which weapon do they allow you to carry in Cali? Supersoaker or Nerf Ultra?

LOL, Jk.

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
Key word here "IF" problem is they "ARE NOT"

yah and therefor Gov't is necessary because Men cannot act responsibly if no laws existed... [Razz]

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
I like Madison.

He was the sign of the times. I think he would think differently if he saw what the proliferation of guns has done to society. But the angel remark holds true nonetheless.


quote:
And one more just for you, Mach. [Smile]

"Among other causes of misfortune which your not being armed brings upon you, it makes you despised...."

-Niccolo Machiavelli

Wisdom consists in being able to distinguish among dangers and make a choice of the least harmful.

- Niccolo Machiavelli

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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buckstalker
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quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
Key word here "IF" problem is they "ARE NOT"

yah and therefor Gov't is necessary because Men cannot act responsibly if no laws existed... [Razz]
True...I will add that GUNS are also necessary because men cannot act responsibly even though laws do exist...

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It's all in the timing...

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Machiavelli
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perhaps or perhaps not but that doesn't mean guns should be everywhere neither... imo they should only be at home/property, business if you own one, firing range and perhaps your car since that is considered property though that one is debatable because of traffic cops being antsy about that...

i still say that if a law passes it should be at the discretion of the bar owner to allow or not allow guns in his/her establishment...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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buckstalker
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And I still say that I should be allowed to protect myself (my body is also my property) at all times, wherever I go...

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It's all in the timing...

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Machiavelli
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we'll that is what politics are for... compromises... and my suggestion is in the middle imo...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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buckstalker
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There is no "middle" Mach...I either have the right to protect myself wherever I go, or sooner or later I can expect to become a victim...

Criminals commit crimes everywhere...not just in peoples homes, businesses, cars, or shooting ranges...

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It's all in the timing...

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glassman
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perhaps your car since that is considered property though that one is debatable because of traffic cops being antsy about that

LOL.. screw that.

they should be antsy wherever they go anyway they're cops. they like being antsy.

after the car? then it's the biz, then it'll be the home cuz the cops are antsy.

the cops are not in charge, no matter how much the department of homeland security people would like you to beleive that.

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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