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Posted by raybond on :
 
From Times Online June 30, 2009

American gun lobby sets out to revive law of the Wild West saloon
Tom Baldwin in Washington
It’s the state in which Billy the Kid first shot and killed a man in a saloon bar row, where the Gunfight at the OK Corral became Wild West legend, and the Boothill cemetery is filled with the bodies of itinerant gunslingers too slow to draw. [BadOne]

Now America’s powerful gun lobby is pushing for the introduction of “commonsense” laws in Arizona that would allow people to walk into bars with guns — just as they did in the old days. Tennessee and Georgia have approved the measure in the past year and a similar law is now being considered by Arizona’s state legislature.

Supporters claim that 40 out of 50 US states already allow licensed gun-owners to carry concealed weapons in bars and restaurants.

Gun-control advocates dispute this figure but recognise that they are in retreat across the country with President Obama wary of alienating voters in rural and Western states who have shifted decisively towards the Democrats in recent elections.

Talk of restoring a ban on assault weapons, which triggered a surge in gun sales this year, has now been put on the back burner in the face of strong opposition from Congress.

Every year more than 30,000 Americans die by gunshot, most of them suicides, but at least 10,000 by murder. This is twice the number of 4,316 US soldiers killed in six years of the Iraq war. England and Wales, by contrast, had 50 deaths through gun crime in 2005-06.

The Arizona Bill, which has been approved by the state senate, would give bars discretion over whether to allow patrons to carry guns provided that they do not drink alcohol and do possess a concealed weapons permit.

Some bar owners believe that the measure threatens a throwback to the kind of saloon bar gunfights that once characterised the Wild West.
 
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
 
quote:
Every year more than 30,000 Americans die by gunshot, most of them suicides, but at least 10,000 by murder. This is twice the number of 4,316 US soldiers killed in six years of the Iraq war. England and Wales, by contrast, had 50 deaths through gun crime in 2005-06.

I hate stats like this for several reasons. Let's say it's accurate just for the sake of discussion. It's supposing that those nearly 20,000 suicides wouldn't have done the deed without the guns. That's not just illogical, it's rediculous. The 10,000 murders quoted insinuates as well that they wouldn't have taken place if stricter gun laws were in place because of course anyone who's willing to murder wouldn't dare to break a gun possesion law...right.

The England reference is just silly..

Here is the result of no guns in the hands of the People...

UK is violent crime capital of Europe
 
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
 
People are tired of the nanny state libs.
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
I hate stats like this for several reasons. Let's say it's accurate just for the sake of discussion. It's supposing that those nearly 20,000 suicides wouldn't have done the deed without the guns. That's not just illogical, it's rediculous. The 10,000 murders quoted insinuates as well that they wouldn't have taken place if stricter gun laws were in place because of course anyone who's willing to murder wouldn't dare to break a gun possesion law...right.

The England reference is just silly..

Here is the result of no guns in the hands of the People...

UK is violent crime capital of Europe

Forget what you just posted.. this is not about taking gun ownership away from citizens. This is about limiting guns in a very volatile environment where alcohol is served. It's like giving keys to cars to a whole bar that is full of drunks. People may kill people and not guns themselves but when you are letting people carry guns in such an environment you are asking for trouble and you are giving them the means to kill.

You have kids, do you want them going to bars, nightclubs, concerts etc. where everyone or majority have guns and people drink to a stupor and arguments ensue? It's one thing to carry a gun to protect yourself, your family and your property but it's totally different to create a dangerous environment in an establishment.

Where does it end? Geez. Have common sense for once and have some logical limits.
 
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
 
Dont you love how some people think if guns are outlawed we will have peace? That nobody will smuggle guns into the U.S. and use illegally in crimes against innocent civilians? Amazing.
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
Dont you love how some people think if guns are outlawed we will have peace? That nobody will smuggle guns into the U.S. and use illegally in crimes against innocent civilians? Amazing.

We don't think drugs will ever stop flowing into this country but we still outlaw it. Same concept. And btw NO ONE said to outlaw guns. Just limit them. You really can't read well. You must hang out with Thinkmoney alot.
 
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
 
Morning, Mach.

Do me a favor? Could you post a link to the last major 'bar' shooting? Doesn't matter the kind\location. Just the last time a bar fight broke out in gunfire. As the original post stated:

quote:
Supporters claim that 40 out of 50 US states already allow licensed gun-owners to carry concealed weapons in bars and restaurants.

Gun-control advocates dispute this figure but recognise that they are in retreat across the country with President Obama wary of alienating voters in rural and Western states who have shifted decisively towards the Democrats in recent elections.

Surely with 40 (ish) states allowing gun in bars there would have to be a major shooting over the juke box tunes every ten minutes or so...right?
 
Posted by raybond on :
 
Alcohal and guns a real winner for a pea brain and if you really get a good buzz on think of what you can do when you leave the bar.

I wonder how law enforcement feels about that, I bet they are thrilled. The ones I know just can't wait. If this passes and I know it will the police have to approach every body as if they were armed most of all the dui. Phoenix is going to be a real shooting range now just watch since everybody that is hear for more than three years thinks there a cowboy ,I guess I have had my job recession proofed
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
we have shootings at "juke joints" down here every weekend.

to understand what a juke joint is? look here:

this place is real and it's known for NOT being a dangerous place.

 -


usually the shootings are in the parking lot and they are over dope or a dice game or somesuch. oh yeah, the dice games are illegal, and of course the dopes illegal too...

as a matter of fact? i think people will behave better if registered/licensed conceal carry people are allowed to carry.

as a group they have very good criminal stats.

however, it would also make sense to require people carrying to be legal to drive too.

in other words? carry and expect a breathalyser [Wink]
 
Posted by jgrecoconstr on :
 
I can't believe it but for once I have to agree with Mach. I have a license to carry concealed here in New York. But I never have for one reason, ROAD RAGE!!!! I honestly believe if I had it in my truck I would have used it by now. I distincly remember one occasion where some a--hole from Florida wouldn't let me merge onto the interstate and procceded to try and force me to stay on the shoulder. My newborn son was with me as well as my wife. A well aimed pepsi bottle pursuaded him to get out of my way. Had I had my handgun I have no doubt I would have shot the son of a *****. Summing it up, alcohol and guns don't mix so no one should carry into a bar in the first place that's just asking for trouble. If the article was just about the right to carry concealed then fine but to state it with bars in mind is just asking for it.
 
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
 
jgrecoconstr, with the utmost sincereity I want to congratulate on understanding your limits. I carry as well and I know several people who have their permits that I never want to be around when they decide to pull.

As far as the bar and guns thing, I don't think alcohol and anything mixes. But you don't see clubs making you give up your keys when you sit down and force you to take a breathalizer to get them back. Yet more people are killed by drunk drivers each year than will EVER be killed by drunk CCW holders.

If you begin to limit where a legally registered gun owner with a felony and violent misdemeanor free record can carry, you start sliding to the place where you can't carry anywhere you would normally be.

Here in Utah, there is relatively few places that I can't carry. One of the big colleges was the last to challenge the state on it...and lost. Other than private homes that tell me they don't want the gun there or federal secure areas we can protect ourselves pretty much anywhere. Yet we still see places that try to ban guns with predictable results...ie Trolley Square.

There is an old saying...

When every second counts...the police are just minutes away.
 
Posted by retiredat49 on :
 
I also carry, but up here in Michigan we are EXTREMELY limited to where we can legally carry...

a licensee shall NOT carry a concealed pistol at a school, on school property, day care center, child placing agency, sports arena, bar or tavern licensed to serve liquor, church, synagogue, mosque, temple or other place of worship, entertainment facility seating more than 2500 people, hospital, dormitory or classroom of a college or university or a casino...

So....just about anywhere that I would need to carry a weapon...I can't
 
Posted by jgrecoconstr on :
 
OK honest question........ would you take one into a bar??? Honestly with a choice of a bar or on the road I would carry into a bar. I rarely drink and usually am a whoredog after a few so not inclined to fight which is where carrying into a bar is a no-no for most people
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by jgrecoconstr:
I can't believe it but for once I have to agree with Mach. I have a license to carry concealed here in New York. But I never have for one reason, ROAD RAGE!!!! I honestly believe if I had it in my truck I would have used it by now. I distincly remember one occasion where some a--hole from Florida wouldn't let me merge onto the interstate and procceded to try and force me to stay on the shoulder. My newborn son was with me as well as my wife. A well aimed pepsi bottle pursuaded him to get out of my way. Had I had my handgun I have no doubt I would have shot the son of a *****. Summing it up, alcohol and guns don't mix so no one should carry into a bar in the first place that's just asking for trouble. If the article was just about the right to carry concealed then fine but to state it with bars in mind is just asking for it.

Thank you for seeing what I mean. Sometimes certain things need limitations and like we both said alcohol + guns do not mix. Where does it end? Next you can carry knives, razors etc. into concerts as well as guns. Not to be prejudice but here in NY with the Hip Hop crowd, them carrying guns to clubs and bars would be a disaster. foughetboutit ....
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
I also carry, but up here in Michigan we are EXTREMELY limited to where we can legally carry...

a licensee shall NOT carry a concealed pistol at a school, on school property, day care center, child placing agency, sports arena, bar or tavern licensed to serve liquor, church, synagogue, mosque, temple or other place of worship, entertainment facility seating more than 2500 people, hospital, dormitory or classroom of a college or university or a casino...

So....just about anywhere that I would need to carry a weapon...I can't

I'm glad for it... especially where alcohol is served like bars and casinos where tempers fly over stupid things...
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
Morning, Mach.

Do me a favor? Could you post a link to the last major 'bar' shooting? Doesn't matter the kind\location. Just the last time a bar fight broke out in gunfire.

Let me post this quickly because i tend to get booted in the last 2 days. Wasn't able to reply to Glass's post on rubies this morning because of that.

1. http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/take_action&id=6876309

2. http://www.northjersey.com/news/crimeandcourts/Paterson_man_dies_after_bar_shoot ing.html

3. http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/Jun/19/man-killed-in-bar-shooting/

You were saying? That is just 3 that I posted. There are others.

quote:
Surely with 40 (ish) states allowing gun in bars there would have to be a major shooting over the juke box tunes every ten minutes or so...right?
I don't believe the 40ish claim. But anyways that is not the point. Men (and sometimes women) are adolescents when they are drunk and I don't know about you but I have seen more bar and club fights then i care to remember. Those were with fists and I can only imagine the disaster if those same bar fights I witnessed involved guns because everyone or most people in those establishments were carrying while intoxicated.

And even though a bars employees/owners are not required to take everyones' keys when they enter a bar they are required to stop someone from driving drunk if they are aware that person is driving that night and it is quite obvious they had too many drinks. Not all places but I have seen court cases where a drunk driver could of been prevented. The same with guns in such establishments. If people are not allowed to carry them inside a bar or club then the worst that can happen most times would be a regular bar fight with fists which at least in almost all cases everyone is alive though their ego's would be bruised if they lost the fight.

Not so with a gun fight where even innocent bystanders could get hit by you even if you are a crackshot. Drinking impairs you and as much as most of you would like to brag you can "drink and shoot", I am sure most drivers say the same about 'drinking and driving".
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
Morning, Mach.

Do me a favor? Could you post a link to the last major 'bar' shooting? Doesn't matter the kind\location. Just the last time a bar fight broke out in gunfire.

Here is some more stories but a little more famous. Knock yourself out reading outside of Utah's world:

1. http://gothamist.com/2009/03/30/5_hurt_at_staten_island_nightclub_s.php

2. http://crime.about.com/od/famousdiduno/ig/mugshots_rap_hip_rb/rap_shynebarrow.ht m

3. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3733021 (didn't shoot anyone but himself but it easily could of gotten worst and hit someone innocent standing nearby.
 
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
 
Mach,

Thanks for taking the time to post those links. I did happen to notice a running theme with them though...

Not a single one mentioned that the violence was caused by a legal concealed carry permit holder.

None.

In fact, two of the stories actually mentioned that the perpetrator was carrying ILLEGALLY.

Known in some circles as P. Diddy's "fall guy", rapper and one time P. Diddy protege, Jamal "Shyne" Barrow was found guilty of first-degree assault, gun possession, and reckless endangerment in a 1999 New York Club shooting incident.

and

According to police, Burress could face criminal charges if he is not licensed to carry a concealed weapon in New York.

Gun laws don't stop the people who are already carrying illegally. They only prevent the law abiding citizen's from defending themselve.
 
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
So....just about anywhere that I would need to carry a weapon...I can't

And that's the rub, Retired. Someone thinks it would be 'dangerous' for law abiding citizens to be armed in a specific place, like a school. Then the same 'logic' is used to extend the prohibition to another place...then another...then another. Soon enough, you can legally own a gun, maybe even carry one...just not anywhere that you might need one. [Frown]

Just out of curiosity, what do you use for your carry? Nunya is a perfectly fine answer.
 
Posted by raybond on :
 
The state of AZ has very loose gun laws you don't need a permit to carry in plain site lots of people do you see them Sunday morning buying a news paper with thier pistol straped on no big deal for a concealed permit a one hour test at the third grade level gets it for you but you could not be using alcohal premit or not if this bill passes you can carry in a bar,
 
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
 
I dont get what the hysteria is. People carry guns into casinos more than most think. They think if guns are banned or not allowed somewhere that they wont be there.


Anyone remember the Hell's Agnels and Mongols fight in the casino? Shootings, brass knuckles, you name it.
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:


Not a single one mentioned that the violence was caused by a legal concealed carry permit holder.

You know more then me that every city or state has their own laws about legal concealment. So unless we know the law for that particular jurisdiction in the cases I linked your point is mute but that doesn't matter. The point really is that alcohol and guns do not mix with male testerone and is a recipe for disaster.

quote:
In fact, two of the stories actually mentioned that the perpetrator was carrying ILLEGALLY.

Known in some circles as P. Diddy's "fall guy", rapper and one time P. Diddy protege, Jamal "Shyne" Barrow was found guilty of first-degree assault, gun possession, and reckless endangerment in a 1999 New York Club shooting incident.

NYC has a "on-premises" law only not a carry one. So his gun was probably legally licensed but not for anything other then his home or a firing range. That is the "illegal" part that I gathered from his case.

quote:
According to police, Burress could face criminal charges if he is not licensed to carry a concealed weapon in New York.
Key word in that statement you quoted: IF. It didn't say it WAS illegal because that particular article didn't find out yet IF it was an illegally unlicensed gun. Again licensed or not does not matter in the stories I linked. What could go wrong in an establishment where alcohol is served is the point. The issue is not licensing to own a gun but where you can carry a gun.

quote:
Gun laws don't stop the people who are already carrying illegally. They only prevent the law abiding citizen's from defending themselve.
Again gun ownership is not the issue. The issue is where you can carry.Carrying any weapon in an alcohol environment where alcohol impairment puts aside reasonable logic is just plain stupid. I do not have an issue with bar/club etc. owners owning and carrying guns in their business premises for protection from robberies and such. But i do have issues with non employees/owners carrying them in a bar where they get drunk, rowdy and start fights.

Much smoking laws were enacted so non smokers do not have to smoke 2nd hand smoke. Gun laws banning carrying in a bar should be enacted or kept in place to avoid violence in a volatile environment where drinking gets out of control and tempers flare up. Settle things with a fist and not a gun. At least the only thing hurt in such a situation is someone's ego.
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
I dont get what the hysteria is. People carry guns into casinos more than most think. They think if guns are banned or not allowed somewhere that they wont be there.

That is not the point. If a law is in place then someone who owns a gun is more likely not to carry one in such a place for fear of getting charged with possession in a place. And if someone carry's a gun into a place then the owner can ask that person to leave it outside in their car or whatever or not be allowed into the place.


quote:
Anyone remember the Hell's Agnels and Mongols fight in the casino? Shootings, brass knuckles, you name it.
Yes I remember and it's exactly the perfect case why they should not be allowed into a casino/bar etc. Knowing the Angels and Mongols reputations they should of been checked with metal detectors at the door much like most people are at a concert. That incident was the casino's fault imo.
 
Posted by retiredat49 on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
So....just about anywhere that I would need to carry a weapon...I can't

And that's the rub, Retired. Someone thinks it would be 'dangerous' for law abiding citizens to be armed in a specific place, like a school. Then the same 'logic' is used to extend the prohibition to another place...then another...then another. Soon enough, you can legally own a gun, maybe even carry one...just not anywhere that you might need one. [Frown]

Just out of curiosity, what do you use for your carry? Nunya is a perfectly fine answer.

I agree 100%...most gun laws are idiotic
I carry a Kimber Ultra CDP in 45 cal.
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
I agree 100%...most gun laws are idiotic

Actually there not. They are there to protect innocent bystanders from trigger happy people like you when you are drunk, in a rage etc. At least someone who owns guns in this forum admits alcohol + guns are a bad mix.

Guns imo should only be for protection of your property, family and hunting. Bars/clubs doesn't fall into neither of these.
 
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
 
quote:
I carry a Kimber Ultra CDP in 45 cal.
Nice choice. I tried to carry my Glock 22 but it's profile made for some interesting clothing choices. [Smile]

Decided that unless I want to dress heavier than weather dictated I needed something smaller. Using a Ruger LCP with .380 hollows. Can carry that under anything more covering than speedos. ;P

Some humor for you, glass, cow and the rest of us gun folk.

Daily Show visits Ogden Utah

The AR guy, Craig, is a good friend of my wife and in-laws.
 
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
 
quote:
At least someone who owns guns in this forum admits alcohol + guns are a bad mix.

Mach, noone has said that gun and alcohol DO mix. We're just saying that ANY time you tell the law abiding citizens that they HAVE to be DEFENSELESS, you invite predators that know they have sheep to feed on.
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
Mach, noone has said that gun and alcohol DO mix. We're just saying that ANY time you tell the law abiding citizens that they HAVE to be DEFENSELESS, you invite predators that know they have sheep to feed on.

Oh ok i get it. You can't settle a dispute with your fists. I getcha. [Wink] [Razz]
 
Posted by retiredat49 on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
I agree 100%...most gun laws are idiotic

Actually there not. They are there to protect innocent bystanders from trigger happy people like you when you are drunk, in a rage etc. At least someone who owns guns in this forum admits alcohol + guns are a bad mix.

Guns imo should only be for protection of your property, family and hunting. Bars/clubs doesn't fall into neither of these.

Actually they are idiotic...and only an idiot would think otherwise...

BTW...I am NOT a trigger happy drunk...in fact I rarely drink, nor have I ever shot anyone...

You state that guns "should" only be for the protection of my property and my family....What about myself? Should I be allowed to protect myself? If so, please explain to me WHY I shouldn't be allowed to carry a concealed weapon to "protect myself" if I go into a bar, sit down and order a coke with some friends? Or for that matter...WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself wherever I go?
 
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
Oh ok i get it. You can't settle a dispute with your fists. I getcha. [Wink] [Razz]

Next time you get mugged by a guy with a gun\knife, Mach? Challenge him to a fist fight and see how far you get.

[Wink]
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
Next time you get mugged by a guy with a gun\knife, Mach? Challenge him to a fist fight and see how far you get.

[Wink]

Now that doesn't make sense. Why would a mugger mug me in a bar full of people? [Razz]
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
Actually they are idiotic...and only an idiot would think otherwise...

Ahh the insults start from you and then you'll say I started it first... [Roll Eyes] As for the laws themselves, that is your opinion and my opinion and not facts. Were both entitled to our opinions.

quote:
BTW...I am NOT a trigger happy drunk...in fact I rarely drink, nor have I ever shot anyone...
Yet, but someday you could be in a bar having the worst day of your life because someone you love died tragically, lost your job or your wife and kids left you. There you are drinking yourself into a stupor and someone insults you or you perceive someone did and you draw your gun because you can't think straight due to your drinking... maybe you shoot or maybe you don't but if you do you could miss and hit someone minding his own business by accident...

quote:
You state that guns "should" only be for the protection of my property and my family....What about myself? Should I be allowed to protect myself? If so, please explain to me WHY I shouldn't be allowed to carry a concealed weapon to "protect myself" if I go into a bar, sit down and order a coke with some friends? Or for that matter...WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself wherever I go?
Now you wouldn't need a gun would you if it was banned from such places and more times then none no one in that place has one as well? But if a law passes permitting it then you will have to carry one and always looking over your shoulder wondering who will pull one on you instead of you enjoying that coke with your friends care free.

Will guns stop from going into bars due to the law? realistically no. But it will limit them and keep them to a minimal. Most bar fights or 99% of them end up in fist fights without any serious injuries except bruised egos. Pass those laws allowing it and watch how much gun violence in such places will increase then before the laws... simple as that... and logical...
 
Posted by retiredat49 on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
Actually they are idiotic...and only an idiot would think otherwise...

Ahh the insults start from you and then you'll say I started it first... [Roll Eyes] As for the laws themselves, that is your opinion and my opinion and not facts. Were both entitled to our opinions.

quote:
BTW...I am NOT a trigger happy drunk...in fact I rarely drink, nor have I ever shot anyone...
Yet, but someday you could be in a bar having the worst day of your life because someone you love died tragically, lost your job or your wife and kids left you. There you are drinking yourself into a stupor and someone insults you or you perceive someone did and you draw your gun because you can't think straight due to your drinking... maybe you shoot or maybe you don't but if you do you could miss and hit someone minding his own business by accident...

quote:
You state that guns "should" only be for the protection of my property and my family....What about myself? Should I be allowed to protect myself? If so, please explain to me WHY I shouldn't be allowed to carry a concealed weapon to "protect myself" if I go into a bar, sit down and order a coke with some friends? Or for that matter...WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself wherever I go?
Now you wouldn't need a gun would you if it was banned from such places and more times then none no one in that place has one as well? But if a law passes permitting it then you will have to carry one and always looking over your shoulder wondering who will pull one on you instead of you enjoying that coke with your friends care free.

Will guns stop from going into bars due to the law? realistically no. But it will limit them and keep them to a minimal. Most bar fights or 99% of them end up in fist fights without any serious injuries except bruised egos. Pass those laws allowing it and watch how much gun violence in such places will increase then before the laws... simple as that... and logical...

You still haven't answered my question...you have done nothing more than sidestepped the question and spewed more of your head in the clouds idealistic bullsh!t.

"Bad Guys" (you know the people in this world that don't obey the laws)...those are the ones that I want to protect myself from...and they are the ones that will still carry a gun into a bar whether the law says they can or not...so I will ask you again...

WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself from that element of society WHEREVER I go??
 
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
 
quote:
WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself from that element of society WHEREVER I go??
The simple answer is because the government (state or federal) doesn't trust you, Retired; or anyone else to take care of themselves.
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
You still haven't answered my question...you have done nothing more than sidestepped the question and spewed more of your head in the clouds idealistic bullsh!t.

I have answered your question. If you are not able to read then i suggest someone help you with that problem because it's not my problem.

quote:
"Bad Guys" (you know the people in this world that don't obey the laws)...those are the ones that I want to protect myself from...and they are the ones that will still carry a gun into a bar whether the law says they can or not...so I will ask you again...

WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself from that element of society WHEREVER I go??

Let me ask you this first. Why do i have to be subjected to an environment full of guns because of people like you who are paranoid wherever you go?

I have been going to bars, clubs and other alcohol related places since the age of 18. I am now 37. And not once have I seen a bar fight where weapons were used. Only fists and New York by everyone's account is a dangerous place.

Right now imo gun related violence is a minimal and when i mean gun related I mean from squabbles between drunks not robberies. If guns are legally allowed in establishments that serve alcohol I have no doubt in my mind that gun related fights will increase due to impairment from drinking.
 
Posted by retiredat49 on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
You still haven't answered my question...you have done nothing more than sidestepped the question and spewed more of your head in the clouds idealistic bullsh!t.

I have answered your question. If you are not able to read then i suggest someone help you with that problem because it's not my problem.

quote:
"Bad Guys" (you know the people in this world that don't obey the laws)...those are the ones that I want to protect myself from...and they are the ones that will still carry a gun into a bar whether the law says they can or not...so I will ask you again...

WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself from that element of society WHEREVER I go??

Let me ask you this first. Why do i have to be subjected to an environment full of guns because of people like you who are paranoid wherever you go?

I have been going to bars, clubs and other alcohol related places since the age of 18. I am now 37. And not once have I seen a bar fight where weapons were used. Only fists and New York by everyone's account is a dangerous place.

Right now imo gun related violence is a minimal and when i mean gun related I mean from squabbles between drunks not robberies. If guns are legally allowed in establishments that serve alcohol I have no doubt in my mind that gun related fights will increase due to impairment from drinking.

No...you have NOT answered my question...you have once again spewed your twisted logic to support your idealistic view of the world...

Evidently you are unable to answer the one simple question I have posed to you because the ONLY logical answer that you could possibly give will contradict your position on this matter...

WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself WHEREVER I go?
 
Posted by retiredat49 on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
quote:
WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself from that element of society WHEREVER I go??
The simple answer is because the government (state or federal) doesn't trust you, Retired; or anyone else to take care of themselves.
Ahhh. but the government (state, federal, or local) CANNOT protect me...so I will ask again...

WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself WHEREVER I go?
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
No...you have NOT answered my question...you have once again spewed your twisted logic to support your idealistic view of the world...

Evidently you are unable to answer the one simple question I have posed to you because the ONLY logical answer that you could possibly give will contradict your position on this matter...

WHY shouldn't I be allowed to protect myself WHEREVER I go?

Umm doesn't contradict anything other then your paranoia... You are absolutely ignoring anything I say and you know it...

I already said 99% of all bar fights end up in fist fights not gun fights... therefor it is suffice to say that your chances of getting into a gun fight with another gun wielding drunk when the law says it is illegal to carry one in a bar imo is about the same chances you have of being in a plane crash... so therefor there is no damn reason for you to carry a gun in a bar if your chances are slim to none of running into and getting into a fight with another gun carrier... BUT if such a law permits it then by all means carry one in a bar because then i have no doubt the majority of bar customers will be carrying... understand? Here in simple terms:

1.Law doesnt pass >> almost no guns if any therefor your chances of a gun fight are same as a plane crash

2.Law passes >> majority customers will be packing and your justify in carrying one yourself because of that. Most likely an increase in gun related bar fights due to most carrying guns and ending drunk disputes with a gun.

Anything more you want me to translate for you?
 
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
 
Well pardner, I'm gonna git on Ol' Paint and ride the fences lookin' for stray liberals. If'n I find some rustlers, we'll have ourselves a lil necktie party. Saddle up, Hoss, we're burnin' daylight!
 
Posted by tmanfromtexas on :
 
Umm doesn't contradict anything other then your paranoia...

Most folks that carry a gun arent paranoid, they are prepared.

As far as restricting guns at establishments it leads to more restrictions. Its like putting a frog in a pot of water and slowly turning the heat up. He doesnt notice until he is cooked.

Look at the stats of Chicago last weekend. They have the strictest gun enforcement in the country but they had 11 murders and several others shot by non law abiding citizens. The law abiding unarmed citizens are absolutely helpless when it comes to this lawlessness. Guns in the hands of law abiding citizens, no matter where they are, creates paranoia for the non law abiding citizens. Thats the way it should be. TMAN...
 
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
 
And every law in the books in Chicago is a reflection of gun violence. Those laws are in response to the problem...not the problem.
 
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
 
Exactly bigfoot they are NOT the problem so why are they going after guns when the REAL problem is something else?

Its called a left wing agenda, and Chicago politics lives through it!!
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
Exactly bigfoot they are NOT the problem so why are they going after guns when the REAL problem is something else?

Its called a left wing agenda, and Chicago politics lives through it!!

And what is the problem in a bar Ole Wise one? Alcohol? We already know that alcohol + ego/testerone equals bar fights in a bar but putting guns into the mix makes it worst...

i rather a fight end in a good ole fist fight then a gun fight where the potentional for death to happen is quite apparent as well as innocent bystanders getting hit by a bullet due to grown men acting even more like children under the influence of scotch...

You have a right to own a gun to protect YOUR property, family and your life but you do not have the right to carry a gun wherever you please especially a public domain environment like a bar where the potentional for violence due TO alcohol increases...

If anything to compromise with you right wing fanatics I would say leave it to the bar owner's discretion whether he wants his patrons to bring guns into HIS/HER establishment or not... It is their business and/or property... my guess is the majority of the bar owners would be against letting anyone bring a gun into his/her establishment... [Wink]
 
Posted by retiredat49 on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
[QUOTE]

You have a right to own a gun to protect YOUR property, family and your life but you do not have the right to carry a gun wherever you please especially a public domain environment like a bar where the potentional for violence due TO alcohol increases...

LOL...you just made my case...

You stated that "I" have a right to own a gun to protect "MYSELF", and you also state that a bar is a place with increased potential for violence...

Why then shouldn't "I" be allowed to protect "MYSELF" in a place with an increased potential for violence...those are the type of places that "I" most want to be prepared to protect "MYSELF"...

and don't start spewing crap about how it will affect you, innocent bystanders, or any more of your lame hypothetical situations...

I want you to explain to me why "I" shouldn't be allowed to protect "MYSELF" in a place with an increased potential for violence...or for that matter...WHEREVER I go!!!

Here is a hint as to what I am looking for in an answer to my question: the key words above are "I" and "MYSELF"...those are the 2 words that you have chosen to exclude in your previous answers...

I specifically want to know why "I" shouldn't be allowed to protect "MYSELF"...

Get It?
 
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
 
LOL Cow. I was saying that the LAWS are not the problems as T-man was inferring...that they are in response to a problem of violence.

If we want to quantify the "problem" I would say it is a combination of Education, Population Density, and illegal (or legal but improper) trade.
 
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
 
By bringing a gun into a bar it could be construed that 'you' are increasing the elevated potential of violence. 'You' turn into the elevated risk that 'you' are protecting 'yourself' from for all the rest of the patrons in the bar.

Don't cha get the irony here? 'You' are carrying a gun in a bar to protect 'yourself' from a hypothetical man with a gun in a bar and defending 'your' right by claiming 'you' are responsible enough to carry a gun in a bar which is shielding the hypothetical man whom 'you' are carrying a gun in a bar to protect 'yourself' from and thereby removing the ability of the legal system to contain that hypothetical man with a gun in a bar.

'You' are protecting 'yourself' from 'yourself' and in insisting on 'your' right to do so wherever 'you' want 'you' are championing a form of lawlessness which is exactly what 'you' are trying to protect 'yourself' from.

LOL

Honestly though, I don't really care. The "Bans Guns on the Premises" signs have always been a joke. Was only a matter of time before someone pointed it out.

P.S. Innocent bystanders are not lame hypothetical crap. They are killed every day.
 
Posted by retiredat49 on :
 
BF...I will bet you 10 to 1 that ANY bar you walk into ANYWHERE in this country, there will be at least 1 person carrying a gun, whether it is legal or illegal to do so...so they are NOT hypothetical...they are in fact very real

BTW...I am NOT worried about the people carrying legally, therefore I am NOT looking to protect myself from myself...If someone has gone through the training and licensing process that enables them to carry a concealed weapon legally...then they are not a threat to me...

I don't live in the same "perfect" world that you and Mach live in...the world I live in is full of "bad guys" with guns, and I believe that I should have the right to protect myself at all times wherever I go...

It is "YOUR" paranoia that wants to prevent me from doing so...

P.S. The lame hypothetical crap I was referring to was Mach's story about me losing a loved one, going into a bar to drown my sorrows, and then shooting someone in a drunken rage because they pissed me off...and his concern for "innocent bystanders" is not an acceptable answer as to why I shouldn't be allowed to protect myself from becoming an innocent bystander...
 
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
 
Retired...someone pulls a gun... are you gonna ask them if they have a license before you pull in turn? I doubt it.

Ok...yah, that is a little bit too much of a romantically sorrowful plot to swallow.

Then again, McNair's 20 year old mistress shot him when she found out he was cheating on her (DUH) so sometimes those lame plots do act out in real life.

I'm backing out of the argument though cause I am not interested in if you can carry in parks or in bars. If you can carry then you can carry to my mind. I just want better screening on who can carry and better controls on who can obtain a gun (especially in the secondary market).
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:


LOL...you just made my case...

You stated that "I" have a right to own a gun to protect "MYSELF", and you also state that a bar is a place with increased potential for violence...

Why then shouldn't "I" be allowed to protect "MYSELF" in a place with an increased potential for violence...those are the type of places that "I" most want to be prepared to protect "MYSELF"...


I didn't make your case for nothing... you still don't get it... yes a bar is a place for violence potentially but if you add guns to the equation those violent fights will end up in deaths... either yours or theirs for stupid drunken reasons... 9 out of 10 fights end up in fist fights and perhaps 1 out of 10 end up with some sort of weapon involved... bring guns into that and i have no doubt those numbers will change to perhaps 5 out of 10 will end in a gun fight or higher...

Yes a bar has potentional for violence but guns in a bar has a higher potentional for deaths vs just a bruised up face in a fist fight... and it doesn't matter if a gun owner "legally" owns the gun because alcohol impairs that "legal" gun owner and if you are not drunk then you are forced to shoot that "legal" gun owner that perhaps wouldn't have that gun in the first place if guns were not allowed to be in that bar.. therefor you two would end up in a fist fight or if you did the right thing you would walk away from the fight altogether and no one would be hurt or dead...

Guns allowed in a bar = more likely for gun fights and deaths due to alcohol impairing judgement and use of gun. More likely to pull a gun then a fist.

No guns allowed in a bar = Fight starts and ends in a fist fight or the sober one walking away with no fist fight ensuing.Less likely for gun violence and only bruised egos will be the result.
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:

BTW...I am NOT worried about the people carrying legally, therefore I am NOT looking to protect myself from myself...If someone has gone through the training and licensing process that enables them to carry a concealed weapon legally...then they are not a threat to me...


Does that training train them to drink alcohol til drunk and not lose their temper? Does it train them to not pull a gun first if not threatened with one and instead end the fight in fists? I bet not...

So therefor yes that "legal and trained" gun owner is a threat to you because one factor you keep forgetting. A Bar is a place pretty much to drink alcohol and get drunk. Not to drink a coke or 7 Up though some do. Go into any bar ANYWHERE and i bet the majority if not all are drinking alcohol.
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
By bringing a gun into a bar it could be construed that 'you' are increasing the elevated potential of violence. 'You' turn into the elevated risk that 'you' are protecting 'yourself' from for all the rest of the patrons in the bar.

Don't cha get the irony here? 'You' are carrying a gun in a bar to protect 'yourself' from a hypothetical man with a gun in a bar and defending 'your' right by claiming 'you' are responsible enough to carry a gun in a bar which is shielding the hypothetical man whom 'you' are carrying a gun in a bar to protect 'yourself' from and thereby removing the ability of the legal system to contain that hypothetical man with a gun in a bar.

'You' are protecting 'yourself' from 'yourself' and in insisting on 'your' right to do so wherever 'you' want 'you' are championing a form of lawlessness which is exactly what 'you' are trying to protect 'yourself' from.

LOL

Honestly though, I don't really care. The "Bans Guns on the Premises" signs have always been a joke. Was only a matter of time before someone pointed it out.

P.S. Innocent bystanders are not lame hypothetical crap. They are killed every day.

I totally agree with BF and he says it best as usual. Listen to BF Retired... he's a wise man and very rational...
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
LOL Cow. I was saying that the LAWS are not the problems as T-man was inferring...that they are in response to a problem of violence.


That always seems to fly over MooMoo's head BF... he thinks these proposed laws come out of nowhere with no rational behind them... he tends to not understand that laws for the most part are reactive to a problem..
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
I just want better screening on who can carry and better controls on who can obtain a gun (especially in the secondary market).

This has nothing to do with the bar issue but it is how i feel about the gun issue in general... as always you say it best in less words then me lol
 
Posted by retiredat49 on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
Retired...someone pulls a gun... are you gonna ask them if they have a license before you pull in turn? I doubt it.


No, but if they threaten me I am going to be able to defend myself, whereas you could end up as an "innocent bystander"...
 
Posted by retiredat49 on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:


LOL...you just made my case...

You stated that "I" have a right to own a gun to protect "MYSELF", and you also state that a bar is a place with increased potential for violence...

Why then shouldn't "I" be allowed to protect "MYSELF" in a place with an increased potential for violence...those are the type of places that "I" most want to be prepared to protect "MYSELF"...


I didn't make your case for nothing... you still don't get it... yes a bar is a place for violence potentially but if you add guns to the equation those violent fights will end up in deaths... either yours or theirs for stupid drunken reasons... 9 out of 10 fights end up in fist fights and perhaps 1 out of 10 end up with some sort of weapon involved... bring guns into that and i have no doubt those numbers will change to perhaps 5 out of 10 will end in a gun fight or higher...

Yes a bar has potentional for violence but guns in a bar has a higher potentional for deaths vs just a bruised up face in a fist fight... and it doesn't matter if a gun owner "legally" owns the gun because alcohol impairs that "legal" gun owner and if you are not drunk then you are forced to shoot that "legal" gun owner that perhaps wouldn't have that gun in the first place if guns were not allowed to be in that bar.. therefor you two would end up in a fist fight or if you did the right thing you would walk away from the fight altogether and no one would be hurt or dead...

Guns allowed in a bar = more likely for gun fights and deaths due to alcohol impairing judgement and use of gun. More likely to pull a gun then a fist.

No guns allowed in a bar = Fight starts and ends in a fist fight or the sober one walking away with no fist fight ensuing.Less likely for gun violence and only bruised egos will be the result.

No Mach...you don't get it

There are already guns present in just about ANY bar you walk into right now...that is a FACT

Guns allowed in a bar = law abiding, responsible adults have the ability to protect themselves against non law abiding criminals who will carry a gun into a bar whether it is legal or not...

No guns allowed in a bar = law abiding, responsible adults are unable to protect themselves from non law abiding criminals who will carry a gun into a bar whether it is legal or not...

BTW...I would also like to have the ability to protect myself from ANY other weapon a criminal might choose to use...(gun, knife, pool stick, beer bottle, etc).
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
No Mach...you don't get it

There are already guns present in just about ANY bar you walk into right now...that is a FACT

Guns allowed in a bar = law abiding, responsible adults have the ability to protect themselves against non law abiding criminals who will carry a gun into a bar whether it is legal or not...

No guns allowed in a bar = law abiding, responsible adults are unable to protect themselves from non law abiding criminals who will carry a gun into a bar whether it is legal or not...

BTW...I would also like to have the ability to protect myself from ANY other weapon a criminal might choose to use...(gun, knife, pool stick, beer bottle, etc).

What you don't get is that alcohol makes people stupid law abiding or not... so that you may walk into a bar and be able to legally carry a gun in that bar but by the end of the night and a few drinks later all rationale goes out the window and that "law abiding" citizen will think with a gun first when insulted or otherwise... even if the other guy is unarmed... that is what you do not get...

Alcohol doesn't discriminate between criminals and law abiders... it impairs you no matter who you are... and btw in my 37 years I have not once been in a bar where someone was carrying a gun... not once and i can say that confidently and I can also say not once has any bar fight i seen start or end with a weapon used... only fists... and NY is considered a dangerous place... i guess that says alot about your part of the country and other parts...

and if you still do not get that no guns allowed in a bar equals less likely to be confronted with a gun then there is no point in debating this... pass your carry guns in all bars law and i'll let you worry about the guy sitting next to you and the guy sitting next to him etc... I'll go to my local bar and have a drink and sit at ease knowing there is no guns in the bars i frequent... At least one legal gun owning board member in this thread see's what i mean with mixing drinks and guns is not a good idea...
 
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
 
Mr Paine said it best:

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."

Thomas Paine

 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
James Madison, President of the United States, 1751-1836:

If men were angels, no government would be necessary.
 
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
 
I like Madison.


‘‘[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation (where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.’’

— James Madison, Federalist, No. 46.

"Americans need never fear their government because of the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation."

-James Madison

" [The governments of Europe] are afraid to trust the people with arms. ... Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors"

-James Madison



And one more just for you, Mach. [Smile]

"Among other causes of misfortune which your not being armed brings upon you, it makes you despised...."

-Niccolo Machiavelli

 
Posted by retiredat49 on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
James Madison, President of the United States, 1751-1836:

If men were angels, no government would be necessary.

Key word here "IF" problem is they "ARE NOT"
 
Posted by IMAKEMONEY on :
 
JUST GOT MY CWL IN CA, SWEET!
 
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
 
Congrats, Imake. Which weapon do they allow you to carry in Cali? Supersoaker or Nerf Ultra?

LOL, Jk.
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
Key word here "IF" problem is they "ARE NOT"

yah and therefor Gov't is necessary because Men cannot act responsibly if no laws existed... [Razz]
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
I like Madison.

He was the sign of the times. I think he would think differently if he saw what the proliferation of guns has done to society. But the angel remark holds true nonetheless.


quote:
And one more just for you, Mach. [Smile]

"Among other causes of misfortune which your not being armed brings upon you, it makes you despised...."

-Niccolo Machiavelli

Wisdom consists in being able to distinguish among dangers and make a choice of the least harmful.

- Niccolo Machiavelli
 
Posted by retiredat49 on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
Key word here "IF" problem is they "ARE NOT"

yah and therefor Gov't is necessary because Men cannot act responsibly if no laws existed... [Razz]
True...I will add that GUNS are also necessary because men cannot act responsibly even though laws do exist...
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
perhaps or perhaps not but that doesn't mean guns should be everywhere neither... imo they should only be at home/property, business if you own one, firing range and perhaps your car since that is considered property though that one is debatable because of traffic cops being antsy about that...

i still say that if a law passes it should be at the discretion of the bar owner to allow or not allow guns in his/her establishment...
 
Posted by retiredat49 on :
 
And I still say that I should be allowed to protect myself (my body is also my property) at all times, wherever I go...
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
we'll that is what politics are for... compromises... and my suggestion is in the middle imo...
 
Posted by retiredat49 on :
 
There is no "middle" Mach...I either have the right to protect myself wherever I go, or sooner or later I can expect to become a victim...

Criminals commit crimes everywhere...not just in peoples homes, businesses, cars, or shooting ranges...
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
perhaps your car since that is considered property though that one is debatable because of traffic cops being antsy about that

LOL.. screw that.

they should be antsy wherever they go anyway they're cops. they like being antsy.

after the car? then it's the biz, then it'll be the home cuz the cops are antsy.

the cops are not in charge, no matter how much the department of homeland security people would like you to beleive that.
 
Posted by retiredat49 on :
 
You took the words right out of my mouth Glass...
 
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
 
quote:
He was the sign of the times. I think he would think differently if he saw what the proliferation of guns has done to society. But the angel remark holds true nonetheless.
I have to disagree. Madison and the rest of the Fathers were creating a system of government that would (in their opinion) be the best for what they called The Natural Laws (or human nature). Human nature has been the same for millenia. Specific environmental factors change, but people are people no matter the century. Alcohol, greed, anger, etc are eternal factors of mankind. Madison was aware of this when he wrote about Americans being armed. He might be discouraged by how far the Feds have managed to extend their hands into the average americans life; and I believe that that alone would cause him to propose MORE guns, not less.
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
screw that.

they should be antsy wherever they go anyway they're cops. they like being antsy.

after the car? then it's the biz, then it'll be the home cuz the cops are antsy.

the cops are not in charge, no matter how much the department of homeland security people would like you to believe that.

you are only looking at it one way... do you want a cop to be pulling a gun on you every time because it's legal to carry one in a car concealed? I wouldn't want an antsy cop with a finger on his trigger everytime he approaches my car on a traffic stop...

The Constitution says you have the right to own a gun but it doesn't say you have the right to carry it everywhere you please and no one else has a say so on that...
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
and I believe that that alone would cause him to propose MORE guns, not less.

Because of course the average American cannot defend himself with just 1 or 2 guns he needs to own 300 guns [Roll Eyes] I guess you average American gun owners are lousy shots [Big Grin]
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
differnt tools for different jobs.

can't carry a rifle 'round town...

but when a man with a winchester meets a man with a colt [Big Grin]
 
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
 
Cops are trained to be antsy. You would be the same if you dealt with the sh!t they do.

Now glass....don't be discriminating against my right to protect myself. If I wanna carry a rifle round town it should be my right to do so.
 
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
 
See...I gots me this piece of paper in my wallet that says I'm trained so no one will worry when they see me walking down the street with my riffle. It's all good.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
Cops are trained to be antsy. You would be the same if you dealt with the sh!t they do.

Now glass....don't be discriminating against my right to protect myself. If I wanna carry a rifle round town it should be my right to do so.

LOL, i didn't mean you aren't allowed, it's just inconvenient.

you know, like high heel shoes, they are really nice accessories, but damned uncomfortable.

do they com ein your size? [Big Grin]
 
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
See...I gots me this piece of paper in my wallet that says I'm trained so no one will worry when they see me walking down the street with my riffle. It's all good.

ROFL! Similar problem here in Utah. We're an 'open carry' state. If I wanted to I could load up with as many guns as I could strap on and the cops couldn't do anything but harrass me about it. But in the wise words of my CCW class instructor...

Legal does not always equal smart. [Smile]
 
Posted by IMAKEMONEY on :
 
GLOCK 20
 
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
 
No and I wouldn't wear em if they did!!! Damnable torture devices if you ask me. Mrs. Foot has actually cut off the circulation to her toes before with those things. Didn't get feeling back in her toes for months.
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:

you know, like high heel shoes, they are really nice accessories, but damned uncomfortable.

do they com ein your size? [Big Grin]

Know from experience eh? [Razz]
 
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
 
Quote The Bigfoot:

"No and I wouldn't wear em if they did!!! Damnable torture devices if you ask me. Mrs. Foot has actually cut off the circulation to her toes before with those things. Didn't get feeling back in her toes for months."

_________________________________________________

It must have cost a fortune to get shoes that size... special order?


-
 
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
 
Here is something off the subject.

A couple of days ago i was in the hospital for an outpatient procedure.

When i came out of the procedure there was a young guy in the bed next to me in recovery.

I was laying there waiting for a nurse to ask how i was, while three other nurses, one who was his sister, were taking care of him.

I talked briefly with him, then another nurse came by and talked to him and asked to take his picture.

That would really suck since he also just came out to recovery.

Then a few other nurses told the one taking the picture that it is not allowed.

Well to make a longer story short, the nurse that wheeled me to the car ask if i knew who that was.

Of course i really didn't care at the time, but said he was a pro football player.

She could not say who, but he definitely had a foot problem, and was no lineman.

I believe he was a quarterback.

There are times when being a pro player must suck that would be one of them, but then again you are sure to get a nurse to help you anytime, which is not the case with us older guys.

My son said i should have taken his picture and sold it to high bidder. [Smile]
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IWISHIHAD:

There are times when being a pro player must suck that would be one of them, but then again you are sure to get a nurse to help you anytime,

Hot Nurse?

I wonder which QB or player it was? Could help me with handicapping NFL season that is coming up.
 
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IMAKEMONEY:
GLOCK 20

Good choice. Never once regretted choosing a Glock. I like the 22 myself but not easy to conceal it.
 
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
 
Quote Machiavelli:

"Hot Nurse?

I wonder which QB or player it was? Could help me with handicapping NFL season that is coming up."

_________________________________________________

Not really.

I am not sure at the time i really cared.

After being out for 7 hours and them trying to get me up to walk so they could send me home, not to interested. Especially at 11 pm.

I believe he is a back up quarterback.
 
Posted by retiredat49 on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
quote:
Originally posted by IMAKEMONEY:
GLOCK 20

Good choice. Never once regretted choosing a Glock. I like the 22 myself but not easy to conceal it.
Very reliable weapon...not pretty, but reliable as you can get
 
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IWISHIHAD:
Here is something off the subject.

A couple of days ago i was in the hospital for an outpatient procedure.

When i came out of the procedure there was a young guy in the bed next to me in recovery.

I was laying there waiting for a nurse to ask how i was, while three other nurses, one who was his sister, were taking care of him.

I talked briefly with him, then another nurse came by and talked to him and asked to take his picture.

That would really suck since he also just came out to recovery.

Then a few other nurses told the one taking the picture that it is not allowed.

Well to make a longer story short, the nurse that wheeled me to the car ask if i knew who that was.

Of course i really didn't care at the time, but said he was a pro football player.

She could not say who, but he definitely had a foot problem, and was no lineman.

I believe he was a quarterback.

There are times when being a pro player must suck that would be one of them, but then again you are sure to get a nurse to help you anytime, which is not the case with us older guys.

My son said i should have taken his picture and sold it to high bidder. [Smile]

Guess you are really living up to your name "I WISH I HAD"
 
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
 
Quote CashCooMoo:

"Guess you are really living up to your name "I WISH I HAD"


_________________________________________________

I don't know, but a picture of a back up Quarterback with a bad foot, his name better be Broadway Joe or John Elway.

Maybe a $1.50 for the picture and $50,000 for the procedure... Iwishihadnot
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IWISHIHAD:

I don't know, but a picture of a back up Quarterback with a bad foot, his name better be Broadway Joe or John Elway.

Maybe a $1.50 for the picture and $50,000 for the procedure... Iwishihadnot

We'll u should of wished for a hot nurse [Big Grin]
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
Child shoots intruder during home break-in

Updated: July 17, 2009 01:51 PM

By David Spunt

PORT ALLEN, LA (WAFB) - A ten-year-old boy left home alone with his sister used his mother's gun to shoot an intruder in the face, police said.

Late Tuesday, West Baton Rouge Parish sheriff's deputies received a call to a Port Allen apartment complex after several shots rang out from inside one of the apartments. "You are out here trying to work and for someone to come and do that and invade your home is very hard," the children's mother said. She asked to not be identified.

Deputies say Dean Favron and Roderick Porter knocked several times on the apartment door. The two young children, a ten-year-old boy and eight-year-old girl, stood on the other side, terrified. "He told his sister to be quiet and seconds later, they started kicking on the door and finally kicked the door in," said Sheriff Mike Cazes. The two children ran to their mother's bedroom closet.

In a panic, the ten-year-old grabbed his mother's gun for protection. "He did what I told him to do. I never told him to get the gun, but thank God he did," she said. Once the two suspects opened the door, threatening the kids, deputies say the boy fired a bullet into the lip of Roderick Porter. The two men were taken to the hospital by a third suspect, who is a 15-year-old juvenile. Once they got to the hospital, they were later arrested. "It's just hard. I don't understand why they would do that. I know they have little brothers and sisters and they wouldn't want anyone to break into their house," said the mother.


http://www.wafb.com/Global/story.asp?S=10741492&nav=menu57_2_5_2
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
this is unconstitutional, and will lead to lawsuits, you can deny access to a private establishment in many cases, but you cannot pick a public street and start searching people :

Beale Street to ban guns, use metal detectors
Posted: Jun 17, 2009 4:55 PM CDT Updated: Jun 18, 2009 8:20 AM CDT


MEMPHIS, TN (WMC-TV) - Big changes are coming to Beale Street, as the entertainment district rebels against the state of Tennessee's new 'guns in bars' bill.

The Beale Street Entertainment District fought legislation allowing guns in bars.

And now that the battle has been lost, they are making their own law - and planning to use metal detectors to make sure patrons aren't breaking it.

Officials said Wednesday that starting July 17th, no guns will be allowed on Beale Street. All clubs and businesses will post signs notifying patrons of the ban.

Police officers and private security guards will use handheld metal detectors to search patrons before allowing them inside the famous street's barricades.


http://www.wmctv.com/global/story.asp?s=10551474
 
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
this is unconstitutional, and will lead to lawsuits, you can deny access to a private establishment in many cases, but you cannot pick a public street and start searching people :

Beale Street to ban guns, use metal detectors
Posted: Jun 17, 2009 4:55 PM CDT Updated: Jun 18, 2009 8:20 AM CDT


MEMPHIS, TN (WMC-TV) - Big changes are coming to Beale Street, as the entertainment district rebels against the state of Tennessee's new 'guns in bars' bill.

The Beale Street Entertainment District fought legislation allowing guns in bars.

And now that the battle has been lost, they are making their own law - and planning to use metal detectors to make sure patrons aren't breaking it.

Officials said Wednesday that starting July 17th, no guns will be allowed on Beale Street. All clubs and businesses will post signs notifying patrons of the ban.

Police officers and private security guards will use handheld metal detectors to search patrons before allowing them inside the famous street's barricades.


http://www.wmctv.com/global/story.asp?s=10551474

Why isnt anyone talking about that? MSNBC sure wouldnt cover that story. They are way too busy having a party over C-Street these past few days.
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
Child shoots intruder during home break-in

Updated: July 17, 2009 01:51 PM

By David Spunt

PORT ALLEN, LA (WAFB) - A ten-year-old boy left home alone with his sister used his mother's gun to shoot an intruder in the face, police said.

Late Tuesday, West Baton Rouge Parish sheriff's deputies received a call to a Port Allen apartment complex after several shots rang out from inside one of the apartments. "You are out here trying to work and for someone to come and do that and invade your home is very hard," the children's mother said. She asked to not be identified.

Deputies say Dean Favron and Roderick Porter knocked several times on the apartment door. The two young children, a ten-year-old boy and eight-year-old girl, stood on the other side, terrified. "He told his sister to be quiet and seconds later, they started kicking on the door and finally kicked the door in," said Sheriff Mike Cazes. The two children ran to their mother's bedroom closet.

In a panic, the ten-year-old grabbed his mother's gun for protection. "He did what I told him to do. I never told him to get the gun, but thank God he did," she said. Once the two suspects opened the door, threatening the kids, deputies say the boy fired a bullet into the lip of Roderick Porter. The two men were taken to the hospital by a third suspect, who is a 15-year-old juvenile. Once they got to the hospital, they were later arrested. "It's just hard. I don't understand why they would do that. I know they have little brothers and sisters and they wouldn't want anyone to break into their house," said the mother.


http://www.wafb.com/Global/story.asp?S=10741492&nav=menu57_2_5_2

And this has to do what with banning guns in a bar?
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
this is unconstitutional, and will lead to lawsuits, you can deny access to a private establishment in many cases, but you cannot pick a public street and start searching people :

Beale Street to ban guns, use metal detectors
Posted: Jun 17, 2009 4:55 PM CDT Updated: Jun 18, 2009 8:20 AM CDT


MEMPHIS, TN (WMC-TV) - Big changes are coming to Beale Street, as the entertainment district rebels against the state of Tennessee's new 'guns in bars' bill.

The Beale Street Entertainment District fought legislation allowing guns in bars.

And now that the battle has been lost, they are making their own law - and planning to use metal detectors to make sure patrons aren't breaking it.

Officials said Wednesday that starting July 17th, no guns will be allowed on Beale Street. All clubs and businesses will post signs notifying patrons of the ban.

Police officers and private security guards will use handheld metal detectors to search patrons before allowing them inside the famous street's barricades.


http://www.wmctv.com/global/story.asp?s=10551474

They can and they did... they passed a law and it has to be enforced... so I see nothing wrong with it... aren't you about enforcing current laws? We'll they are only doing that and their job... [Good Luck] People like Retired now do not have to worry about getting shot in that street since there will be none... him and others will have to leave their guns in their cars outside that street.. [Were Up]

And obviously the Beale Street bars and such do not want guns in their establishments. As far as I am concerned it did not have to come to this. All that was required was to leave it to the bar owners' discretion to allow or not allow guns in their establishments.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
i don't think you understand.

the searches are not being conducted at the bar entrances.

this will go to court and the Beale st group will lose. it is uncostitutional based on the second and fourth ammendment

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

since there is a state law allowing the behaviour? this is an illegal search. you cannot just search people on the street because you feel like it.

you are fascist, you should go live in China where the rights are more to your "liking",


just because you make a law doesn't make the law constitutional. these are illegal searches.

i have been illegally searched in Memphis before. You might recall i've mentioned it in the past.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
They can and they did... they passed a law and it has to be enforced..

actually? i cannot find a law allowing the searches either.

this is simply a group of people that do not understand the constitution:

Police officers and private security guards will use handheld metal detectors to search patrons before allowing them inside the famous street's barricades.

Merchants will have to cover the cost, but they say it's worth it to maintain Beale Street's reputation as one of the country's safest entertainment distric

 
Posted by glassman on :
 
MEMPHIS, TN - If you plan on heading to Beale Street, get ready for tougher security. You will be met by security guards at all entrances, checking IDs with one hand, and using a metal detector with the other. The new security measure is in response to the “Guns In Bars” Bill that went into law July 14, 2009.

The Beale Street Merchants Association tells myEyewitnessNews.com it is doing everything to ensure the safety of thousands who come to the Entertainment District every weekend. Leonard Porter is in charge of security. He doesn’t expect any major setbacks from the new procedures. “We just want to make sure everyone is safe. There are kids on the streets, and there are tourists that bring their children here. They want to eat, they want to see it, they heard about it. We want to make sure nothing breaks out.”

The new rules come after state law made it legal to carry guns into bars and restaurants in Tennessee. But Beale Street bars are opting out of that law. Beale Street patron Vicki Love says the additional safety measures are for the better. “That’s a good step in the right direction. If you’re going to carry a gun not intending to have anything bad go on then you should be willing to be checked out.”


note the barricade is on the PUBLIC taxpayer owned street, not private property:

 -
http://www.myeyewitnessnews.com/news/local/story/No-Guns-On-Beale-Street-New-Sec urity-Measures-Now/yCN9ymyEWE6a4S3oebpF6g.cspx


Under the new state law allowing guns in bars, permit holders will not be allowed to drink while carrying a weapon. If they are caught drinking while carrying, they could face up to a year in jail and a $2500 fine.

a private company is enforcing this policy...

should get interesting...


PSI Security will be manning all eleven entrances to Beale and everyone who wants to come in will get a quick up and down check for weapons with a metal wand.

"Hopefully everyone will be patients with us, we don't expect long lines but this is all new for all of us," says Beale Street Merchant's Association Executive Director, Onzie Horne.

Horne says they want to send a clear message that alcohol and guns don't mix.

"Because of the new law there are a number of people who believe it's now appropriate whereas people using common sense before simply would not have brought guns onto the street and certainly wouldn't have taken them into bars," says Horne.

http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/dpp/news/tennessee/071709_Beale_Street_Starts_Ban_on _Guns
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
GEB,
there might be a loophole...

for instance, an annual event here is Main Street Arts Festival. They close down several streets, sell booth space, have stages set up, allow alcohol sales, etc. In other words, "normal" laws are suspended temporarily and the usually public streets are treated as extensions of the surrounding merchants' private property.

Just thinking in print, but you catch my drift...

EDIT: says Beale Street Merchant's Association Executive Director...

ya, see? quasi quasi...
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
If they are caught drinking while carrying,

seems to me this was the whole point of this stoopid lil exercise....
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
this is not a "special" event. it's every night

SCOTUS recently took down a 30 year law in DC . it took 30 years to get it in front of the court.

it's still not clear that there's actaully any law being enforced here, just one being violated by the private security gusrds. several in fact
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by T e x:
If they are caught drinking while carrying,

seems to me this was the whole point of this stoopid lil exercise....

yeah, the Tenn Law that allows permit holders to carry in drinking establishment does not allow them to drink.

common sense huh?
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
this is not a "special" event.

SCOTUS recently took down a 30 year law in DC . it took 30 years to get it in front of the court.

it's still not clear that there's actaully any law being enforced here, just one being violated by the private security gusrds. several in fact

not arguing that... am simply saying some lawyer somewhere thinks "special event" status for intermingling private/public property obtains.

See post above this: sounds to me the whole point from the lege side is to be able to bust permit carriers who are holding if they blow a bad test...
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
i don't think you understand.

the searches are not being conducted at the bar entrances.

this will go to court and the Beale st group will lose. it is uncostitutional based on the second and fourth ammendment

Perhaps you are right and perhaps not... doesn't matter... i still clap my hands for what they are doing... even if it's reversed... because it shows the bar owners do not want guns there...

quote:
since there is a state law allowing the behaviour? this is an illegal search. you cannot just search people on the street because you feel like it.
ah so if there is a state law you can't have local laws? I wonder if there is a federal law if you can't have a state law? .. [Roll Eyes]

quote:
you are fascist, you should go live in China where the rights are more to your "liking",
Fascist? nope... a combo of capitalist/socialist... yup... not wanting deadly weapons on a street full of bars is not facism... it's common sense regardless of political views...

quote:
just because you make a law doesn't make the law constitutional. these are illegal searches.
It's for the better good of public safety where a whole street is alcohol establishments, i don't see why not.

quote:
i have been illegally searched in Memphis before. You might recall i've mentioned it in the past.
nope, don't recall.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
Beale st is off limits to gun carry permits.

i don't really have a problem with someone saying they won't allow guns in their own establishment. however, searching people at the 11 street entrances is not going to last. it's a violation of the 4th to search people on the street without cause anyway.

they've been doing it more and more everywhere and people are getting "used" to it, which is pretty creepy IMO.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
Beale st is off limits to gun carry permits.

i don't really have a problem with someone saying they won't allow guns in their own establishment. however, searching people at the 11 street entrances is not going to last. it's a violation of the 4th to search people on the street without cause anyway.

they've been doing it more and more everywhere and people are getting "used" to it, which is pretty creepy IMO.

Memphis is really screwed up anyway. The local politics are a complete disaster, the economy is weak (was even before the crisis) and it's dangerous as hell to go anywhere up there at night.

BTW? your mailbox is overflowing get out your broom.
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
yeah, the Tenn Law that allows permit holders to carry in drinking establishment does not allow them to drink.

common sense huh?

Very much common sense.. much like making it against the law to drive if you are drunk... if you want to drink, then don't drive...

Besides nothing in that law says they can't have a coke or 7UP [Big Grin]
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
just goes to show that the yuckapucks were not trying to bring back the old west.

i posted the link to the stroy about the kid because the woman who left that loaded gun where her kids could get it is in violation of the law.

good thing she's a scofflaw huh?
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
Beale st is off limits to gun carry permits.

i don't really have a problem with someone saying they won't allow guns in their own establishment. however, searching people at the 11 street entrances is not going to last. it's a violation of the 4th to search people on the street without cause anyway.

they've been doing it more and more everywhere and people are getting "used" to it, which is pretty creepy IMO.

Memphis is really screwed up anyway. The local politics are a complete disaster, the economy is weak (was even before the crisis) and it's dangerous as hell to go anywhere up there at night.

BTW? your mailbox is overflowing get out your broom.

cleared a few; can't really sweep--not sure whether I have copies. e-mail is good.
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
they've been doing it more and more everywhere and people are getting "used" to it, which is pretty creepy IMO.

absolutely creepy...

The Beale St deal is a 4-star clusterphuk. I sense evil at work...
 
Posted by Machiavelli on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
just goes to show that the yuckapucks were not trying to bring back the old west.

i posted the link to the stroy about the kid because the woman who left that loaded gun where her kids could get it is in violation of the law.

good thing she's a scofflaw huh?

Violation of which law? fed? state? local?
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
just goes to show that the yuckapucks were not trying to bring back the old west.

i posted the link to the stroy about the kid because the woman who left that loaded gun where her kids could get it is in violation of the law.

good thing she's a scofflaw huh?

Violation of which law? fed? state? local?
prolly all of them. You're not supposed to leave a firearm such that a child can have access.

Of course, I post as an adult who carried a 7 mm Mauser at seven years old in the deer woods...no bullet in the chamber, until I was seated in my stand & said cartridge to be removed before I left the tree. I was very carefully regulated...by my family, not the gumment.
 
Posted by retiredat49 on :
 
Uh...isn't there a law against leaving a 10 year old home alone???
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
there's lottsa laws...

But somehow "law" still hasn't defined what's right
 
Posted by retiredat49 on :
 
Aint dat da truth...
 


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