posted
Iran president: Israel doomed to 'destruction' by Lebanon Posted 7/23/2006 10:49 AM ET TEHRAN, Iran (AP) — Iran's president declared Sunday that Israel had "pushed the button of its own destruction" by launching a military campaign against the Iranian-backed Hezbollah militia in Lebanon.
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Iranian president: Israel too weak 'to give Iran a nasty look'
By NASSER KARIMI
The Associated Press Jul 15, 2006
TEHRAN, Iran - President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Friday that Israel could not harm Iran, even as the Jewish state expanded its offensive into Lebanon to target the Iranian-backed Hezbollah, the official Islamic Republic News Agency reported.
--------------------------------------------- "We Are Determined"
May 30, 2006
In an interview with SPIEGEL, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad discusses the Holocaust, the future of the state of Israel, mistakes made by the United States in Iraq and Tehran's nuclear dispute with the West. Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: "By siding with Iran, the Europeans would serve their own and our interests."
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'Divine mission' driving Iran's new leader By Anton La Guardia (Filed: 14/01/2006)
As Iran rushes towards confrontation with the world over its nuclear programme, the question uppermost in the mind of western leaders is "What is moving its President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to such recklessness?"
Political analysts point to the fact that Iran feels strong because of high oil prices, while America has been weakened by the insurgency in Iraq.
...In November, the country was startled by a video showing Mr Ahmadinejad telling a cleric that he had felt the hand of God entrancing world leaders as he delivered a speech to the UN General Assembly last September.
Mr Ahmadinejad telling a cleric that he had felt the hand of God entrancing world leaders as he delivered a speech ?????
yep he's nuttier than Bush by far.....
this one's gotta go gordo...
so does the other, but...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
UK airport used to fly bombs to Israel By Thomas Harding Defence Correspondent and Anil Dawar (Filed: 26/07/2006)
Audio: UN 'spitting and livid' at deadly attack, reports Tim Butcher in Lebanon
Your view: how can a ceasefire be achieved?
Britain has been used as a staging post for major shipments of bunker-busting bombs from America to Israel. The Israelis want the 5,000lb smart bombs to attack the bunkers being used by Hizbollah leaders in Lebanon.
Two chartered Airbus A310 cargo planes filled with GBU 28 laser-guided bombs landed at Prestwick airport, near Glasgow, for refuelling and crew rests after flying across the Atlantic at the weekend, defence sources confirmed. The airport has also been used by the CIA for rendition flights carrying terrorist suspects.
posted
"In light of disproportionate military attacks, the Government should take steps to suspend all arms transfers to Israel, whether directly from or through the UK," said Michael Moore, the party's foreign affairs spokesman.
"disproportionate"???? LOL, i'm sorry.... when winning a war? one must be "disproportionate"
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
so whats the solution glass? bomb lebanon? kill everyone.. fine.. time to use nuclear bombs.. just another reason why every country should strive hard to improve its defense purchases and if possible, have active nuclear capability.. else war would be "disproportionate".
-------------------- All my posts are based on my own opinions and not to be taken as buy/sell recommendations. Posts: 961 | Registered: May 2006
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I guess these folks look at this as entertainment on their TV's and don't recognize the inherent dangers here because its over there somewhere.
Posts: 184 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
"Obviously the deaths caused to innocent civilians in Israel over the years by terrorists with car bombs and homicide bombers have no significance to you."
Both sides have committed atrocities. Israel used ethnic cleansing tactics in 1947-8 and the Arab nations used genocidal tactics in response. It began then and both sides have perpetrated terrible acts of war. It's very interesting to read the emails I get from friends, one of who was injured in Haifa. The Arab Israeli friends I have, Muslim, Christian and Druze, nearly all agree Israel had to eliminate the rockets and establish some real security on the border.
Some people would suggest Israel was unprovoked and that their tactics are reprehensible. Killing always is reprehensible. The tragic events of today only serve to highlight that.
I am relatively unconvinced that Israel did everything it could to minimize civilian casualties, and I doubt the "human shield" stories, but Israel has endured roughly 18 months of unrelenting taunting by Qassam rockets and seen a gradual escalation in their potential lethality until now, Haifa and possibly even Tel Aviv are vulnerable. It was an invasion of their sovereign territory by a terorist network. And in war, no matter how careful, civilians become casualties. So to the question should Israel have used more restraint in responding to the invasion?
The Lebanese government is not strong enough to act alone without dissolving into civil war so how will Hezbollah be contained? War is an instrument of Israel's and every sovereign nation's foreign policy. Do I wish another way could have been found? Yes! But after 18 months of rockets and captured soldiers viable alternatives are hard to come by.
That Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan , at least accepted Israel's action, if not whole-heartedly endorsed it is a first in Middle East history but it underscores the instability within the Islamic governments. It will in turn divert attention from what is happening to terror cells in their own countries if Israel is the "Bad guy" to Iran and Syria. If Hamas and Hezbollah are to some extent neutralized or at least severely diminished, we may have a breeak in tensions with which to pursue the two state solution and disposition of Jerusalem that will undercut much of radical Islam's recruiting propaganda.
"Ahmadinejad just wants a cease fire so they can re-supply hezbolah...with MORE rockets..."
More AND bigger Glass. It would appear Israel cut off easy transfer across the Syrian border and I'm-mad-inajad knows the world community will push for a cease fire becoming permanent once it begins whatever Hezbollah and Hamas do.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim Posts: 896 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
"If I'm in the area, and they drop leaflets? *poof* I'm gone..."
Agreed Tex, at 41 I can get out of the way but if I were like some of the 70-90+ year olds or transportation-less refugee families, I'm not sure they had much choice. That is an experience we can sometimes relate to in the face of hurricanes and typhoons some can't get away.
"reprehensible? nah..."
Tex, I would like to agree, but this is why I suggest it is always "reprehensible." I have worked and continue to work with veterans from WWII, Korea, Vietnam mostly and a few from the more recent conflicts. And I really believe from those conversations that part of a person "dies" in killing another person.
I reach that conclusion having talked with many former soldiers as they faced death. I can remember one most vividly, a great old soldier, 80 years old. He was dying from a body that is essentially giving out from a whole host of age issues. At that moment his heart was quitting. And when we met we talked about the Ardennes and General Patton. He talked about the "frozen Chosin" and being part of the decimated infantry that followed "Chesty" Puller's Marines out to the harbor.
And as he lingered, with the family gathered all around, it was clear he was not sure where he was going. This brave guy who had killed to protect people was afraid. So when his family left for some supper, he and I chatted. When he spoke he said, "I don't think God can forgive me for the people I killed. I've never been the same since. I figure that's the worst thing I could do so I know I'm going to hell and I'm afraid."
Here was this really good guy who did so much for other people, including his service but not just that, and he was afraid of what he deserved because he killed three people in the Ardennes and more in Korea. That's why I think killing is reprehensible. Something tormented that poor soldier for 60 years. He never confessed it to anyone until that moment.
I counselled him about forgiveness, about the reality of sin and its consequences, but especially about forgiveness and assurance of faith. We prayed together and do you know what, once he unburdened himself and felt that forgiveness, he made as full a recovery as an 80 year old can make. His heart improved. Two days later, he was discharged from what was thought to be his death bed. He lived another three years and when he did die from cancer, we celebrated his life with great joy and honor amid the tears.
Now I could be like some pastors and claim my prayer healed him, but the truth is God healed his heart by helping him forgive himself from the pain of killing others. It may seem insignificant or irrelevant, but over and over as I meet with retired soldiers, this is the pain they talk about.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim Posts: 896 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
"Agreed Tex, at 41 I can get out of the way but if I were like some of the 70-90+ year olds or transportation-less refugee families, I'm not sure they had much choice."
at 41? you carry the 90-year-old, if need be. Steal a donkey...
when you see the bad guys setting up rockets? MOVE AWAY FROM DA BUILDING
sounds like you did good with the old guy; helped him realize what I'm saying. Good job... Of course it gets convoluted; war *is* hell. Of course it gets internalized and mixed up and into the guts...It bothers some if they have to kill a rapist...counseling good. Doesn't change the bottom line--kill da bad guys. Counseling could be tougher if they freeze up and do nothing.
posted
All of those notions are taking for granted that the "civilians" hate, detest, or are even mildly annoyed with hezbollah. Islam is a "religion" based soley on the premise that all other religions are idolic and therefore evil. It's entirely probable that these so called civilians are in some way.. direct or indirect, supporters of hezbollah.. at some level.
Posts: 2965 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I am getting really tired of people making excuses for the "civilians" in these third world countries like Lebanon. Everyone acts as though they are at the mercy of these "insurgents" or terrorists.. or whatever we wish to label our enemy. Somehow these people are defenseless.. incapable of even thinking about fighting back.. More smoke and mirrors. If the civilians actually disagreed with hezbollah.. they COULD oust them.. They COULD fight back.
Posts: 2965 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: All of those notions are taking for granted that the "civilians" hate, detest, or are even mildly annoyed with hezbollah. Islam is a "religion" based soley on the premise that all other religions are idolic and therefore evil. It's entirely probable that these so called civilians are in some way.. direct or indirect, supporters of hezbollah.. at some level.
children can't make those decisions...
morally? *I* couldn't live with myself, leaving 'em in harm's way...
practically? makes no sense to let the kids get whacked: H'bo cutting off their own recruitment...
posted
looks like people in Lebanon are supporting hizbollah the same way residents of nagasaki and hiroshima supported japan. time to nuke them!!!!! drop nukes.. destroy countries.. offer aid.. and attain self gratification that we help everyone around the world.. including our enemies.. train people like laden.. call them terrorists.. attack countries in pursuit to kill them.. supply technologies to manufacture WMD's.. later claim that countries have WMD's.. attack them.. and "liberate" them!!!!!
-------------------- All my posts are based on my own opinions and not to be taken as buy/sell recommendations. Posts: 961 | Registered: May 2006
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posted
"sounds like you did good with the old guy; helped him realize what I'm saying."
He deserved better than I have to offer, Tex. I didn't help him see your point much. I more helped him realize God's grace forgives the sin of killing when we realize it is wrong. In other words, God used me as a conduit to him to say, "You are forgiven, set free to lay the burden down, because my Son took up the cross."
"I am getting really tired of people making excuses for the "civilians" in these third world countries like Lebanon."
Never been in terrorist territory huh? True my experience of terrorist groups was in South America against political extremists, but the situation is the same from Southeast Asia to South America to the Middle East. In third world countries a simple handgun goes a long way.
"Islam is a "religion" based soley on the premise that all other religions are idolic and therefore evil."
Categorically untrue. Infidel religions they consider evil. Christians and Jews are "people of the Book" and if you work with Western Muslims in their own cultural setting you find that lived out. As you travel East that becomes more rare. You speak as though Islam were homogenous in its application and misapplication of Sharia. It is not. Islamo-fascist teachings do exactly what you say. Islam does not adhere to your understanding. In Northern Israel, Muslims, Jews, Druze and Christians live together with disturbances much like the dynamics here in the US.
"they are "props" for a news propaganda campaign..."
I suspect, if Israel called for 48 hour cease fire, there is more to it than that, but it will certainly get lots of play whether it was staged or not. You and I do not know Israel's policy is to avoid targets with a civilian concentration, but they stepped into a mess here. Could it be that Israel is just re-assessing their intelligence gathering for as it pertains to assessing priorities for military targets? Or is it possible some very mis-guided troops took action unilaterally.
"the people putting 'em there are scum..."
Yes, and it is a tactic both sides have used to good PR effect.
"last i checked? hezbolah doesn't even know where their ordnance is going griffo..."
They may have bad aim, but Israeli scientists have suggested they are capable of hitting Tel Aviv with what's in Syria.
get real...pray harder or something...... cuz whatever you skypilots are doing now? it ain't workin'"
I had a 7th grade girl at Mar Elias ask me this question: You say that prayer is important but we pray and children still die; prayer doesn't work does it?
My response to her was and would be today: Prayer is not the last chance we take, it's the first action we make. Prayer is God's way of inviting us to become part of the solution.
So it is not up to us "sky-pilots" to have nice words unless good people of conscience, including those "sky-pilots" are prepared to hear the call to action and respond. In other words, I can pray a flying carpet, but who's going to pilot?
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim Posts: 896 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jul 2006
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you must *live* for message boards...real life must be .... uhhh-- dreary?
whatever, you argue poorly...
the suicide bombers of Japan had extensive military training and specific military targets.
Your argument suggests the US nukes at random, despite lessons learned from the two.
Your argument presupposes the US does nothing for former adversaries.
Your argument glosses over the soviet stockpile.
Your argument is college-level, in that it supposes we don't know excesses have occurred. You presume "we" the people are somehow "satisfied" and content.
You're wrong. It's a big, damn, tough job, keeping our government in line. However, we do better at it--as a people--than almost anyone...
Yes, and it is a tactic both sides have used to good PR effect.
really? i have not seen anybody else do this...
what did i miss... how could the Israelis put kids in front of katoushe rockets when nobody knows where they are going to land
and yes they have no idea what they are going to hit when they launch those rockets...... they are purely terrorists tools...
but who's going to pilot
now? now, you are getting to the real point aren't you? see? the world is what it is... we change it, but we are a still a product of it cuz as we try to change it? it changes US as well....
i suspect Israels 48 hour cease fire will last about as long as there are NO arms shipments spotted coming across to hezbolah... and not much longer...
but the situation is the same from Southeast Asia to South America to the Middle East. In third world countries a simple handgun goes a long way. hubrus... you understand little of war...
On Monday, Human Rights Watch researchers inspected a three-story apartment building in Haifa's Bat Galim neighborhood after it was struck by a rocket around 3:00 p.m., causing extensive damage to the top two floors and wounding six residents, one of them seriously. They collected metal ball bearings that had pierced the walls of the apartment building across the street and car windshields up to one block away.
An ordinance removal expert at the scene told Human Rights Watch that the rocket used in the attack had a 240mm warhead. According to media reports, Hezbollah announced that it had fired dozens of Raad 2 and Raad 3 anti-tank missiles into Haifa in response to "aggressions against various Lebanese regions." An Israeli military official told the press on Sunday that Hezbollah had fired at least three Syrian-made Fajr-3 missiles.
"In my medical opinion, they [these rockets] are supposed to injure as many people as possible," said Dr. Eran Tal-Or, director of the Surgical Emergency Room at Haifa's Ramban Hospital. "If you wanted to bring down a building, you would make a weapon with a heavier blast. And you wouldn't bother with the balls inside that don't do much harm to buildings; just to people.
that's terroism....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I think the term "third world" is being overloaded..
definition of third world from wikipedia! Third World is a term first coined in 1952 by French demographer Alfred Sauvy to distinguish nations that aligned themselves with neither the West nor with the Soviet Bloc during the Cold War. Today, however, the term is frequently used to denote nations with a low UN Human Development Index (HDI), independent of their political status (meaning that the PRC, Russia and Brazil, all of which were very strongly aligned during the Cold War, are often termed third world)
-------------------- All my posts are based on my own opinions and not to be taken as buy/sell recommendations. Posts: 961 | Registered: May 2006
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posted
"He deserved better than I have to offer, Tex. I didn't help him see your point much. I more helped him realize God's grace forgives the sin of killing when we realize it is wrong. In other words, God used me as a conduit to him to say, "You are forgiven, set free to lay the burden down, because my Son took up the cross.""
nope--that's exactly what I was saying...when they really need killin'? It's OK...
we merely disagree on the route...the way the "pipes" of transmission of "the message" are laid out... the "conduits" as you say...
lol, sounds like you wanna be a "J-box" in every conduit...
job security?
Griff? It's wonderful you can use your training and background to help folks that need your help. But not everyone needs your help....
Plenty of folk simply realize their duty and do it...others need help, agreed. Nothing wrong with that...and many will find help in ways you CAN NOT imagine...so there's also no need to turn *everything" into your point of reference...
quote:Originally posted by ruskin_muskin: I think the term "third world" is being overloaded..
definition of third world from wikipedia! Third World is a term first coined in 1952 by French demographer Alfred Sauvy to distinguish nations that aligned themselves with neither the West nor with the Soviet Bloc during the Cold War. Today, however, the term is frequently used to denote nations with a low UN Human Development Index (HDI), independent of their political status (meaning that the PRC, Russia and Brazil, all of which were very strongly aligned during the Cold War, are often termed third world)
ruskin,
you make sense so rarely, it's hard to understand why you bother to post
posted
"i suspect Israels 48 hour cease fire will last about as long as there are NO arms shipments spotted coming across to hezbolah... and not much longer..."
As well they should respond to those shipments.
"really? i have not seen anybody else do this..."
since I was unclear, let me explain what I mean. Both sides have used horrific scenes to generate sympathy.
The point is neither side is a saint. It began in 1947 and the UN failed both peoples ever since. Now we are back to the "every 15 years war." Glass we can go back through the history of Israel and before and see the terrorism in both camps. That's the historiography both sides use to justify what's happening now. The trade in evocative pictures is brisk. And it all may document reality but it's framed in a way that works like the old WWI photo the British sent over here. That one they superimposed a baby over a chicken that German soldiers were roasting on a spit. The implication being...
"when they really need killin'? It's OK..."
It's never okay. There is forgiveness, but it came at high price, Tex. It may be necessary within the fallen world context, but it is never correct.
job security?
Here's my prayer for job security:
I am no longer my own, but thine. Put me to what thou wilt, rank me with whom thou wilt. Put me to doing, put me to suffering. Let me be employed by thee or laid aside for thee, exalted for thee or brought low for thee. Let me be full, let me be empty. Let me have all things, let me have nothing. I freely and heartily yield all things to thy pleasure and disposal. And now, O glorious and blessed God, thou art mine, and I am thine. So be it. And the covenant which I have made on earth, let it be ratified in heaven. Amen.
posted
"when your brother or child is about to be maimed or killed, and I (or whoever) instead kill the attacker? you'll get it, then..."
when I had a gun to my chest and a knife in my leg, I did not strike back. And that action spared a village. Was that the wrong choice?
I said killing is at times necessary because of the fallen nature of this world. I simply say, that does not make it morally or ethically right. We have different worldviews Tex, but that does not make me wrong, nor does my worldview negate yours.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim Posts: 896 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
"when I had a gun to my chest and a knife in my leg, I did not strike back. And that action spared a village. Was that the wrong choice?"
sounds like they had the drop on ya, eh? Unless you're saying you declined to employ your superhuman, ninja powers... lol
of course, discretion/valor, etc... foolish to put ego/revenge above "saving a village."
Yes, we have different worldviews: in mine, killing is not only sometimes necessary but also is both the moral and ethical choice...not to mention practical.
"I said killing is at times necessary because . . . "
"It's never okay. "
DOH!
OK...here's our compromise...guy's got his knife at your throat?but you don't want me to shoot him. Your personal conviction, etc. ... OK. I'll see if you can pull off another "village-saving" manuever, out of respect for your personal philosphy. If he doesn't cut your throat, I save a bullet. PLUS, I don't have to listen to your panty-wadded nagging about my killing him against your conviction blah blah blah for the next twenty years... BUT if he does cut your throat? THEN I'll kill him...
posted
Not sure what planet these folks are landing from but!
I can tell you and any one if a country or group was sending 100+ bombs a day into Miami or any other part of our country the would be vaporised, I hope!
Posts: 3417 | From: Cleveland, Ohio | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
said killing is at times necessary because of the fallen nature of this world. I simply say, that does not make it morally or ethically right. We have different worldviews Tex, but that does not make me wrong, nor does my worldview negate yours.
Griffon,
I do not understand how you can advocate keeping troops in Iraq or sending them anywhere else in in the world for any reason where they might have to kill and then say these troops are morally and ethically wrong when they have to kill.
Posts: 3875 | From: ca. | Registered: Jul 2005
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Have you ever heard of the expression, "Can't win for losing?" Or have you ever heard of a "no win scenario?" Killing is just that, no win. We have been conditioned to accept killing as a trade off, the lesser of two evils, but I have to ask, "Is the 'lesser' of two evils, good?" Is it not still evil?
Can we not find a better way, or must we surrender to clubbing each other to death. Your statement gets at the absolute hypocricy of this world and the seductive, corrupting nature of sin. We are so broken in our humanity that we cannot conceive other peace-building methods. So good, young people die and kill to keep us safe. None of us can win ethically.
That people believe killing can be moral and ethical is understandable in the context of ending a greater injustice, but it is still evil. I say the troops should stay because this is the way a sinful world conducts foreign policy, not because it is good to kill. My earnest hope is there presence would restrain some that would kill on a far grander scale, but that still does not make it ethically right. It is the broken system we must work to prevent all expression of in the future, and I hope your generation can find a better answer.
It is the greatest of sin, but as with all sin there can be forgiveness, as long as we acknowledge it is wrong and in sincere repentence, which means full change of heart and life. I am saying do not celebrate killing, as I know you do not, and recognize the physical, social, emotional toll it takes and thank God for the work they are doing. But I am also saying challenge our leaders to empower them to come home one day able to forever cast their weapons aside because their efforts brought lasting peace and stability to the region.
The problem with the idea that killing is ever morally or ethically good continues because it continues the cycle of violence to another generation. The old addage, "an eye for an eye leaves both persons blind" can be carried into the question should I kill. The cycle never ends.
Serbia and Bosnia fought around 1000 CE around Kosovo, but I don't remember the battlefield name. As Yugoslavia disintegrated and the killings began Serb troops were screaming for revenge for that battle. That was their battlecry. That is the response killing gets, generations longing for revenge until no one really remembers what the fight was about in the first place.
Jews and Muslims have fought over Palestine for 150 years, did you know that? I bet you thought it has always been this way. People talk about Isaac and Ishmael, two tribes from Abraham at odds since the Patriarchal period around 2750 bce. But Arabs only came into Palestine around 700 ce. The old story we have been taught to justify the fatalism of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a lie, not found in the Bible or in any of the writings of Judaism or Islam until the time of the sinful Crusades, 1100 ce.
This was the great divide between Islam, Judaism and Christianity. Why? Property, physical and ideological. The occasional "culling" as people on each side called their pogroms against each other, did not really peak again until the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. The Palestinian national identity began with the Ottoman re-structuring of the empire about 1750, coming to full flower with Lawrence of Arabia, betrayed in 1920.
As the Jewish population grew in the Levant, especially in Palestine, bad blood began to simmer. And yet, if you read Elias Chacour and Christian Palestinians, they were willing to open Palestine to Israelis after WWII and share the land. Israel embarked on ethnic cleansing, Arabs embarked on isolated instances of genocide, and the region has been at war pretty much every 10 years every since.
The mytho-poetic historiography has grown up around the events until both sides have absolute villains and heroes, real and imagined hurts and a thirst for killing. This is what killing does. Our troops must prevent that killing and minimize their own killing.
Can you imagine the response the Arab world is contemplating because of the incident that spawned this thread? Killing promotes more killing. Iwish, the nature of the world compels us to compromise our ethics, sin does that, we must choose which is the least of two evils. But that does not make the least evil "good." Tex had it right in saying there is no pleasure in it.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim Posts: 896 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jul 2006
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