By KATHY GANNON, Associated Press Writer 11 minutes ago
QANA, Lebanon - Israeli missiles hit several buildings in a southern Lebanon village as people slept Sunday, killing at least 56, most of them children, in the deadliest attack in 19 days of fighting. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert expressed "great sorrow" for the airstrikes but blamed Hezbollah guerrillas for using the area to launch rockets at Israel. Olmert told U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza that he needed 10 days to two weeks to finish offensive in Lebanon, according to a senior Israeli government official.
"We want this to stop!" shouted Mohammed Ismail, a middle-aged man pulling away at the rubble in search for bodies, his brown pants covered in dust. "May God have mercy on the children. They came here to escape the fighting."
"They are hitting children to bring the fighters to their knees," he said
.........
French President Jacques Chirac's office said "France condemns this unjustifiable action, which shows more than ever the need to move toward an immediate cease-fire."
Jordan's King Abdullah II condemned "the ugly crime perpetrated by Israeli forces in Qana."
Posted by NaturalResources on :
Corpses pulled from rubble in Qana
By Hussein Saad
QANA, Lebanon (Reuters) - Rescue workers placed the body of a girl on the ground and ran to search for more. They heaved hunks of concrete off a dead child caked in dust.
The rigid corpse of a young boy, his bloody face disfigured, lay near a pulverized building.
Hours later, rescuers were still clambering over rubble using their hands to pull the bodies of men, women and children from buildings destroyed by an Israeli air strike on the southern Lebanese village of Qana on Sunday.
I guess you just conveniently left out this part of your news article.
Israeli said it targeted Qana because it was a base for hundreds of rockets launched at Israeli, including 40 that injured five Israelis on Sunday. Israel said it had warned civilians several days before to leave the village.
"One must understand the Hezbollah is using their own civilian population as human shields," said Israeli Foreign Ministry official Gideon Meir. "The Israeli defense forces dropped leaflets and warned the civilian population to leave the place because the Hezbollah turned it into a war zone."
Posted by NaturalResources on :
"Why have they attacked one- and two-year-old children and defenseless women? What have they done wrong?" asked Mohamed Samai, whose relatives were among the dead.
.....
"This is not only Israel's fault, this is the fault of America and the Arab states that backed Israel's attack. If the Israelis want to attack let them fight the resistance face-to-face," said Samai, before collapsing.
Posted by Leo on :
quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: "Why have they attacked one- and two-year-old children and defenseless women? What have they done wrong?" asked Mohamed Samai, whose relatives were among the dead.
.....
"This is not only Israel's fault, this is the fault of America and the Arab states that backed Israel's attack. If the Israelis want to attack let them fight the resistance face-to-face," said Samai, before collapsing.
So how do you fight someone face to face if they are hiding behind and attacking you from behind a human shield of civilians? This is very sad but..
Posted by Sunnyside on :
Obviously the deaths caused to innocent civilians in Israel over the years by terrorists with car bombs and homicide bombers have no significance to you.
So... let's see... how about all the innocent civilians in the WTC? Or all over Europe in train stations, restaurants, and such?
Any of this ring a bell?
And, I'm quite sure that the Israelis were not targeting woman and children. If you can read, which obviously you are selective about, you'd see and be cognizant of the fact that the terrorists use their own innocent woman and children as shields to protect their brave selves.
By the way, did they send flyers to the thousands of American ppl before they crashed in the WTC?
I am certain that if Israel was not concerned about civilian lives, this could have been accomplished much quicker. And why should Israel have to fight face-to-face when the enemy is not? If I recall they are firing bombs into Israel's civilian population. Oh, but I forgot, Israeli lives are inconsequential.
Posted by NaturalResources on :
quote:Originally posted by Sunnyside: I guess you just conveniently left out this part of your news article.
Israeli said it targeted Qana because it was a base for hundreds of rockets launched at Israeli, including 40 that injured five Israelis on Sunday. Israel said it had warned civilians several days before to leave the village.
"One must understand the Hezbollah is using their own civilian population as human shields," said Israeli Foreign Ministry official Gideon Meir. "The Israeli defense forces dropped leaflets and warned the civilian population to leave the place because the Hezbollah turned it into a war zone."
Actually, I intentionally left that part out, but not for the reason you suspect....
Posted by NaturalResources on :
quote:Originally posted by Leo: So how do you fight someone face to face if they are hiding behind and attacking you from behind a human shield of civilians? This is very sad but..
Posted by Sunnyside on :
Funny way to make a point. But point well made.
Posted by NaturalResources on :
Posted by NaturalResources on :
What is Hezbollah and what are its goals?
The core of the Hezbollah organization (also spelled Hizballah, Hezbullah and other variants, meaning 'Party of God') in Lebanon comes from 'Iranian Revolutionary Guards' sent to Lebanon in 1982, at the time of Israel's invasion of Southern Lebanaon designed to oust the PLO. They went to assist in the establishment of a revolutionary Islamic movement whose members would participate in the 'Jihad', Holy War, against Israel from bases in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley. Inspired by the success of the Iranian Revolution and establishment of an Islamic Republic in Iran, Hezbollah also dreamt of transforming Lebanon's multi-religion state into an Iranian-style Islamic state. Its ideology, as expressed in declarations by its leadership, maintained that Israel had no legitimacy as a state, and that it must be fought until Jerusalem, meaning all of Israel, is liberated. Posted by NaturalResources on :
quote:Originally posted by Sunnyside: ..... And, I'm quite sure that the Israelis were not targeting woman and children. If you can read, which obviously you are selective about, you'd see and be cognizant of the fact that the terrorists use their own innocent woman and children as shields to protect their brave selves.
.....
I agree. No one in the right of mind would intentionally target woman and children. I do not believe Isreal did this intentionally.
However, certain other ideologies call for a maximization of collateral damage and civilian casualties. They glorify the idea of suicide, even among children, as a means to inflict damage to the "infidel" population and intentionally kill civilians.
all Hezbolah had to was was put a real or a dummy rocket and launcher on the building where they had already put children....
quit crying people...
war is hell....
hezbolah and iran have already declared war! take them seriously
Posted by glassman on :
Israel just now released video showing the rocket launcher being parked in the building....
Posted by Relentless. on :
This is exactly what Iran wants.. They desperately want to make Israel look like genocidal fanatics..
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
They're doing fine on their own.
Posted by glassman on :
Gordo...
i agree with you on a lot of things...
like the war in iraq was based on lies etc....
BUT?
Iran is asking, no, DEMANDING that we take them out...
i think we should oblige them....
they think we can't afford to because of the world oil market...
i suggest you put some more of your portfiolio in gold
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
By all means, take out Iran's government. A great ideology.
My concern is only for the thousands of innocent people that will die at our hands when we do.
Agreed: Most of my portfolio is in PMs now.
Posted by Sunnyside on :
quote:Originally posted by Gordon Bennett: By all means, take out Iran's government. A great ideology.
My concern is only for the thousands of innocent people that will die at our hands when we do.
Agreed: Most of my portfolio is in PMs now.
Ok Gordon, so should we wait until they try to take us out first? Or Israel? When is someone supposed to step in and shut this down? Or are they permitted to strike out against any and all with no retaliation?
Do you realize that Hezbolah has killed more Americans than any terrorist organization? And you don't think they're supported by their own arab nations?
Its nice to be idealistic while sitting in American comfortably watching TV, but this is what is actually happening. NOW. Not some vague theoretically event.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Do you realize that car accidents have killed more Americans than any terrorist organization?
Perspective, people.
quote:Originally posted by Sunnyside: Do you realize that Hezbolah has killed more Americans than any terrorist organization? And you don't think they're supported by their own arab nations?
Its nice to be idealistic while sitting in American comfortably watching TV, but this is what is actually happening. NOW. Not some vague theoretically event.
Posted by Sunnyside on :
Yes, Gordon, you need some perspective.
Posted by glassman on :
gordon, you are defending terrorists...
what's up with that?
they led the Israelis bomb right to those kids...
not vice versa...
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
If you're truly interested in saving Americans from death, we should outlaw the automobile. That would save millions more lives than the "War on Terror" ever will.
P.S. I always get a chuckle out of that name, "War on Terror." It's like "No Child Left Behind."
LOL
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
No I'm not defendng terrorists. I'm saying it's not worth blowing up innocent children to get them.
Or, as the terrorists would say, "kill all you want, we'll make more."
At the very least it's terrible PR.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: gordon, you are defending terrorists...
what's up with that?
they led the Israelis bomb right to those kids...
not vice versa...
Posted by Sunnyside on :
But Gordon we're not arguing about the safety of automobiles, we're watching a terrorist organization gone wild with the ideology of killing all of us.
What are you talking about? Sounds like a case of altered mental status again.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
And we have the ideology of killing all of them. (Yeah, this is gonna work. LOL)
Sounds like a case of Fox News saturation to me. Try another channel.
Posted by glassman on :
do you think the israelis knew the kids were there?
the terrosits did.
you are being "spun" by the other side now...
i agree about the "we'll make more" statement this has to stop...
how many rockets has hezbolah shot rondomly into Israel in the last year? over a thousand....
that's BEFORE this current situation started
you think you can "reason" with Ahmadinejad???
he's nuts... worse than Bush
July 25, 2006, 11:44AM Iran president warns of spreading violence
DUSHANBE, Tajikistan — Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad warned Tuesday that the conflict between Lebanon and Israel could trigger "a hurricane" of broader fighting in the Middle East. Posted by Sunnyside on :
Like which one? Crescent News Network?
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
I like to think I'm not "spun" by anyone. I think the intent here is only to escalate the conflict.
I'm against that.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: do you think the israelis knew the kids were there?
the terrosits did.
you are being "spun" by the other side now...
i agree about the we'll make more...
how many rockets has hezbolah shot rondomly into Israel in the last year? adn that's BEFORE this curent situation started over a thousand....
yuo think you can "reason" with Ahmadinejad???
he's nuts... worse than Bush
July 25, 2006, 11:44AM Iran president warns of spreading violence
DUSHANBE, Tajikistan — Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad warned Tuesday that the conflict between Lebanon and Israel could trigger "a hurricane" of broader fighting in the Middle East.
Posted by glassman on :
Ahmadinejad just wants a cease fire so they can re-supply hezbolah...
with MORE rockets...
sheeyit man....
they can't stand up to US..
they want to have never ending terrorismn so they can continue to get 70$ or more for their main export: oil... its business...
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Try browsing. It's that up/down arrow thingy on your remote.
quote:Originally posted by Sunnyside: Like which one? Crescent News Network?
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
And Israel will just go on a picnic, right?
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Ahmadinejad just wants a cease fire so they can re-supply hezbolah...
with MORE rockets...
sheeyit man....
Posted by Sunnyside on :
Gee, where's Meir Kahane when you need him? Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Gunned down, I assume. Posted by glassman on :
Iran president: Israel doomed to 'destruction' by Lebanon Posted 7/23/2006 10:49 AM ET TEHRAN, Iran (AP) — Iran's president declared Sunday that Israel had "pushed the button of its own destruction" by launching a military campaign against the Iranian-backed Hezbollah militia in Lebanon.
---------------------------------------------
Iranian president: Israel too weak 'to give Iran a nasty look'
By NASSER KARIMI
The Associated Press Jul 15, 2006
TEHRAN, Iran - President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Friday that Israel could not harm Iran, even as the Jewish state expanded its offensive into Lebanon to target the Iranian-backed Hezbollah, the official Islamic Republic News Agency reported.
--------------------------------------------- "We Are Determined"
May 30, 2006
In an interview with SPIEGEL, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad discusses the Holocaust, the future of the state of Israel, mistakes made by the United States in Iraq and Tehran's nuclear dispute with the West. Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: "By siding with Iran, the Europeans would serve their own and our interests."
---------------------------------------
'Divine mission' driving Iran's new leader By Anton La Guardia (Filed: 14/01/2006)
As Iran rushes towards confrontation with the world over its nuclear programme, the question uppermost in the mind of western leaders is "What is moving its President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to such recklessness?"
Political analysts point to the fact that Iran feels strong because of high oil prices, while America has been weakened by the insurgency in Iraq.
...In November, the country was startled by a video showing Mr Ahmadinejad telling a cleric that he had felt the hand of God entrancing world leaders as he delivered a speech to the UN General Assembly last September.
Mr Ahmadinejad telling a cleric that he had felt the hand of God entrancing world leaders as he delivered a speech ?????
yep he's nuttier than Bush by far.....
this one's gotta go gordo...
so does the other, but...
Posted by Sunnyside on :
I want to know what happened to the bunker busters Israel was supposed to get from the US?
Posted by glassman on :
UK airport used to fly bombs to Israel By Thomas Harding Defence Correspondent and Anil Dawar (Filed: 26/07/2006)
Audio: UN 'spitting and livid' at deadly attack, reports Tim Butcher in Lebanon
Your view: how can a ceasefire be achieved?
Britain has been used as a staging post for major shipments of bunker-busting bombs from America to Israel. The Israelis want the 5,000lb smart bombs to attack the bunkers being used by Hizbollah leaders in Lebanon.
Two chartered Airbus A310 cargo planes filled with GBU 28 laser-guided bombs landed at Prestwick airport, near Glasgow, for refuelling and crew rests after flying across the Atlantic at the weekend, defence sources confirmed. The airport has also been used by the CIA for rendition flights carrying terrorist suspects.
"In light of disproportionate military attacks, the Government should take steps to suspend all arms transfers to Israel, whether directly from or through the UK," said Michael Moore, the party's foreign affairs spokesman.
"disproportionate"???? LOL, i'm sorry.... when winning a war? one must be "disproportionate"
Posted by ruskin_muskin on :
so whats the solution glass? bomb lebanon? kill everyone.. fine.. time to use nuclear bombs.. just another reason why every country should strive hard to improve its defense purchases and if possible, have active nuclear capability.. else war would be "disproportionate".
Posted by Sunnyside on :
Thanks Glass. 'preciate the info.
I guess these folks look at this as entertainment on their TV's and don't recognize the inherent dangers here because its over there somewhere.
Posted by Griffon on :
"Obviously the deaths caused to innocent civilians in Israel over the years by terrorists with car bombs and homicide bombers have no significance to you."
Both sides have committed atrocities. Israel used ethnic cleansing tactics in 1947-8 and the Arab nations used genocidal tactics in response. It began then and both sides have perpetrated terrible acts of war. It's very interesting to read the emails I get from friends, one of who was injured in Haifa. The Arab Israeli friends I have, Muslim, Christian and Druze, nearly all agree Israel had to eliminate the rockets and establish some real security on the border.
Some people would suggest Israel was unprovoked and that their tactics are reprehensible. Killing always is reprehensible. The tragic events of today only serve to highlight that.
I am relatively unconvinced that Israel did everything it could to minimize civilian casualties, and I doubt the "human shield" stories, but Israel has endured roughly 18 months of unrelenting taunting by Qassam rockets and seen a gradual escalation in their potential lethality until now, Haifa and possibly even Tel Aviv are vulnerable. It was an invasion of their sovereign territory by a terorist network. And in war, no matter how careful, civilians become casualties. So to the question should Israel have used more restraint in responding to the invasion?
The Lebanese government is not strong enough to act alone without dissolving into civil war so how will Hezbollah be contained? War is an instrument of Israel's and every sovereign nation's foreign policy. Do I wish another way could have been found? Yes! But after 18 months of rockets and captured soldiers viable alternatives are hard to come by.
That Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan , at least accepted Israel's action, if not whole-heartedly endorsed it is a first in Middle East history but it underscores the instability within the Islamic governments. It will in turn divert attention from what is happening to terror cells in their own countries if Israel is the "Bad guy" to Iran and Syria. If Hamas and Hezbollah are to some extent neutralized or at least severely diminished, we may have a breeak in tensions with which to pursue the two state solution and disposition of Jerusalem that will undercut much of radical Islam's recruiting propaganda.
"Ahmadinejad just wants a cease fire so they can re-supply hezbolah...with MORE rockets..."
More AND bigger Glass. It would appear Israel cut off easy transfer across the Syrian border and I'm-mad-inajad knows the world community will push for a cease fire becoming permanent once it begins whatever Hezbollah and Hamas do.
Posted by T e x on :
"I am relatively unconvinced that Israel did everything it could to minimize civilian casualties, "
If I'm in the area, and they drop leaflets?
*poof*
I'm gone...
"Killing always is reprehensible."
distasteful, unpleasant, messy, ugly...sure. reprehensible? nah...
Posted by Griffon on :
"If I'm in the area, and they drop leaflets? *poof* I'm gone..."
Agreed Tex, at 41 I can get out of the way but if I were like some of the 70-90+ year olds or transportation-less refugee families, I'm not sure they had much choice. That is an experience we can sometimes relate to in the face of hurricanes and typhoons some can't get away.
"reprehensible? nah..."
Tex, I would like to agree, but this is why I suggest it is always "reprehensible." I have worked and continue to work with veterans from WWII, Korea, Vietnam mostly and a few from the more recent conflicts. And I really believe from those conversations that part of a person "dies" in killing another person.
I reach that conclusion having talked with many former soldiers as they faced death. I can remember one most vividly, a great old soldier, 80 years old. He was dying from a body that is essentially giving out from a whole host of age issues. At that moment his heart was quitting. And when we met we talked about the Ardennes and General Patton. He talked about the "frozen Chosin" and being part of the decimated infantry that followed "Chesty" Puller's Marines out to the harbor.
And as he lingered, with the family gathered all around, it was clear he was not sure where he was going. This brave guy who had killed to protect people was afraid. So when his family left for some supper, he and I chatted. When he spoke he said, "I don't think God can forgive me for the people I killed. I've never been the same since. I figure that's the worst thing I could do so I know I'm going to hell and I'm afraid."
Here was this really good guy who did so much for other people, including his service but not just that, and he was afraid of what he deserved because he killed three people in the Ardennes and more in Korea. That's why I think killing is reprehensible. Something tormented that poor soldier for 60 years. He never confessed it to anyone until that moment.
I counselled him about forgiveness, about the reality of sin and its consequences, but especially about forgiveness and assurance of faith. We prayed together and do you know what, once he unburdened himself and felt that forgiveness, he made as full a recovery as an 80 year old can make. His heart improved. Two days later, he was discharged from what was thought to be his death bed. He lived another three years and when he did die from cancer, we celebrated his life with great joy and honor amid the tears.
Now I could be like some pastors and claim my prayer healed him, but the truth is God healed his heart by helping him forgive himself from the pain of killing others. It may seem insignificant or irrelevant, but over and over as I meet with retired soldiers, this is the pain they talk about.
Posted by glassman on :
last i checked? hezbolah doesn't even know where their ordnance is going griffo...
get real...
pray harder or something...... cuz whatever you skypilots are doing now? it ain't workin'
Posted by T e x on :
"Agreed Tex, at 41 I can get out of the way but if I were like some of the 70-90+ year olds or transportation-less refugee families, I'm not sure they had much choice."
at 41? you carry the 90-year-old, if need be. Steal a donkey...
when you see the bad guys setting up rockets? MOVE AWAY FROM DA BUILDING
sounds like you did good with the old guy; helped him realize what I'm saying. Good job... Of course it gets convoluted; war *is* hell. Of course it gets internalized and mixed up and into the guts...It bothers some if they have to kill a rapist...counseling good. Doesn't change the bottom line--kill da bad guys. Counseling could be tougher if they freeze up and do nothing.
Posted by Relentless. on :
All of those notions are taking for granted that the "civilians" hate, detest, or are even mildly annoyed with hezbollah. Islam is a "religion" based soley on the premise that all other religions are idolic and therefore evil. It's entirely probable that these so called civilians are in some way.. direct or indirect, supporters of hezbollah.. at some level.
Posted by Relentless. on :
I am getting really tired of people making excuses for the "civilians" in these third world countries like Lebanon. Everyone acts as though they are at the mercy of these "insurgents" or terrorists.. or whatever we wish to label our enemy. Somehow these people are defenseless.. incapable of even thinking about fighting back.. More smoke and mirrors. If the civilians actually disagreed with hezbollah.. they COULD oust them.. They COULD fight back.
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: All of those notions are taking for granted that the "civilians" hate, detest, or are even mildly annoyed with hezbollah. Islam is a "religion" based soley on the premise that all other religions are idolic and therefore evil. It's entirely probable that these so called civilians are in some way.. direct or indirect, supporters of hezbollah.. at some level.
children can't make those decisions...
morally? *I* couldn't live with myself, leaving 'em in harm's way...
practically? makes no sense to let the kids get whacked: H'bo cutting off their own recruitment...
Posted by glassman on :
they are "props" for a news propaganda campaign...
the people putting 'em there are scum...
Posted by ruskin_muskin on :
looks like people in Lebanon are supporting hizbollah the same way residents of nagasaki and hiroshima supported japan. time to nuke them!!!!! drop nukes.. destroy countries.. offer aid.. and attain self gratification that we help everyone around the world.. including our enemies.. train people like laden.. call them terrorists.. attack countries in pursuit to kill them.. supply technologies to manufacture WMD's.. later claim that countries have WMD's.. attack them.. and "liberate" them!!!!!
Posted by Griffon on :
"sounds like you did good with the old guy; helped him realize what I'm saying."
He deserved better than I have to offer, Tex. I didn't help him see your point much. I more helped him realize God's grace forgives the sin of killing when we realize it is wrong. In other words, God used me as a conduit to him to say, "You are forgiven, set free to lay the burden down, because my Son took up the cross."
"I am getting really tired of people making excuses for the "civilians" in these third world countries like Lebanon."
Never been in terrorist territory huh? True my experience of terrorist groups was in South America against political extremists, but the situation is the same from Southeast Asia to South America to the Middle East. In third world countries a simple handgun goes a long way.
"Islam is a "religion" based soley on the premise that all other religions are idolic and therefore evil."
Categorically untrue. Infidel religions they consider evil. Christians and Jews are "people of the Book" and if you work with Western Muslims in their own cultural setting you find that lived out. As you travel East that becomes more rare. You speak as though Islam were homogenous in its application and misapplication of Sharia. It is not. Islamo-fascist teachings do exactly what you say. Islam does not adhere to your understanding. In Northern Israel, Muslims, Jews, Druze and Christians live together with disturbances much like the dynamics here in the US.
"they are "props" for a news propaganda campaign..."
I suspect, if Israel called for 48 hour cease fire, there is more to it than that, but it will certainly get lots of play whether it was staged or not. You and I do not know Israel's policy is to avoid targets with a civilian concentration, but they stepped into a mess here. Could it be that Israel is just re-assessing their intelligence gathering for as it pertains to assessing priorities for military targets? Or is it possible some very mis-guided troops took action unilaterally.
"the people putting 'em there are scum..."
Yes, and it is a tactic both sides have used to good PR effect.
"last i checked? hezbolah doesn't even know where their ordnance is going griffo..."
They may have bad aim, but Israeli scientists have suggested they are capable of hitting Tel Aviv with what's in Syria.
get real...pray harder or something...... cuz whatever you skypilots are doing now? it ain't workin'"
I had a 7th grade girl at Mar Elias ask me this question: You say that prayer is important but we pray and children still die; prayer doesn't work does it?
My response to her was and would be today: Prayer is not the last chance we take, it's the first action we make. Prayer is God's way of inviting us to become part of the solution.
So it is not up to us "sky-pilots" to have nice words unless good people of conscience, including those "sky-pilots" are prepared to hear the call to action and respond. In other words, I can pray a flying carpet, but who's going to pilot?
Posted by T e x on :
ruskin...
you must *live* for message boards...real life must be .... uhhh-- dreary?
whatever, you argue poorly...
the suicide bombers of Japan had extensive military training and specific military targets.
Your argument suggests the US nukes at random, despite lessons learned from the two.
Your argument presupposes the US does nothing for former adversaries.
Your argument glosses over the soviet stockpile.
Your argument is college-level, in that it supposes we don't know excesses have occurred. You presume "we" the people are somehow "satisfied" and content.
You're wrong. It's a big, damn, tough job, keeping our government in line. However, we do better at it--as a people--than almost anyone...
who else takes the time and effort?
Posted by glassman on :
"the people putting 'em there are scum..."
Yes, and it is a tactic both sides have used to good PR effect.
really? i have not seen anybody else do this...
what did i miss... how could the Israelis put kids in front of katoushe rockets when nobody knows where they are going to land
and yes they have no idea what they are going to hit when they launch those rockets...... they are purely terrorists tools...
but who's going to pilot
now? now, you are getting to the real point aren't you? see? the world is what it is... we change it, but we are a still a product of it cuz as we try to change it? it changes US as well....
i suspect Israels 48 hour cease fire will last about as long as there are NO arms shipments spotted coming across to hezbolah... and not much longer...
but the situation is the same from Southeast Asia to South America to the Middle East. In third world countries a simple handgun goes a long way. hubrus... you understand little of war...
On Monday, Human Rights Watch researchers inspected a three-story apartment building in Haifa's Bat Galim neighborhood after it was struck by a rocket around 3:00 p.m., causing extensive damage to the top two floors and wounding six residents, one of them seriously. They collected metal ball bearings that had pierced the walls of the apartment building across the street and car windshields up to one block away.
An ordinance removal expert at the scene told Human Rights Watch that the rocket used in the attack had a 240mm warhead. According to media reports, Hezbollah announced that it had fired dozens of Raad 2 and Raad 3 anti-tank missiles into Haifa in response to "aggressions against various Lebanese regions." An Israeli military official told the press on Sunday that Hezbollah had fired at least three Syrian-made Fajr-3 missiles.
"In my medical opinion, they [these rockets] are supposed to injure as many people as possible," said Dr. Eran Tal-Or, director of the Surgical Emergency Room at Haifa's Ramban Hospital. "If you wanted to bring down a building, you would make a weapon with a heavier blast. And you wouldn't bother with the balls inside that don't do much harm to buildings; just to people.
that's terroism....
Posted by ruskin_muskin on :
I think the term "third world" is being overloaded..
definition of third world from wikipedia! Third World is a term first coined in 1952 by French demographer Alfred Sauvy to distinguish nations that aligned themselves with neither the West nor with the Soviet Bloc during the Cold War. Today, however, the term is frequently used to denote nations with a low UN Human Development Index (HDI), independent of their political status (meaning that the PRC, Russia and Brazil, all of which were very strongly aligned during the Cold War, are often termed third world)
Posted by T e x on :
"He deserved better than I have to offer, Tex. I didn't help him see your point much. I more helped him realize God's grace forgives the sin of killing when we realize it is wrong. In other words, God used me as a conduit to him to say, "You are forgiven, set free to lay the burden down, because my Son took up the cross.""
nope--that's exactly what I was saying...when they really need killin'? It's OK...
we merely disagree on the route...the way the "pipes" of transmission of "the message" are laid out... the "conduits" as you say...
lol, sounds like you wanna be a "J-box" in every conduit...
job security?
Griff? It's wonderful you can use your training and background to help folks that need your help. But not everyone needs your help....
Plenty of folk simply realize their duty and do it...others need help, agreed. Nothing wrong with that...and many will find help in ways you CAN NOT imagine...so there's also no need to turn *everything" into your point of reference...
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by ruskin_muskin: I think the term "third world" is being overloaded..
definition of third world from wikipedia! Third World is a term first coined in 1952 by French demographer Alfred Sauvy to distinguish nations that aligned themselves with neither the West nor with the Soviet Bloc during the Cold War. Today, however, the term is frequently used to denote nations with a low UN Human Development Index (HDI), independent of their political status (meaning that the PRC, Russia and Brazil, all of which were very strongly aligned during the Cold War, are often termed third world)
ruskin,
you make sense so rarely, it's hard to understand why you bother to post
Posted by Griffon on :
"i suspect Israels 48 hour cease fire will last about as long as there are NO arms shipments spotted coming across to hezbolah... and not much longer..."
As well they should respond to those shipments.
"really? i have not seen anybody else do this..."
since I was unclear, let me explain what I mean. Both sides have used horrific scenes to generate sympathy.
The point is neither side is a saint. It began in 1947 and the UN failed both peoples ever since. Now we are back to the "every 15 years war." Glass we can go back through the history of Israel and before and see the terrorism in both camps. That's the historiography both sides use to justify what's happening now. The trade in evocative pictures is brisk. And it all may document reality but it's framed in a way that works like the old WWI photo the British sent over here. That one they superimposed a baby over a chicken that German soldiers were roasting on a spit. The implication being...
"when they really need killin'? It's OK..."
It's never okay. There is forgiveness, but it came at high price, Tex. It may be necessary within the fallen world context, but it is never correct.
job security?
Here's my prayer for job security:
I am no longer my own, but thine. Put me to what thou wilt, rank me with whom thou wilt. Put me to doing, put me to suffering. Let me be employed by thee or laid aside for thee, exalted for thee or brought low for thee. Let me be full, let me be empty. Let me have all things, let me have nothing. I freely and heartily yield all things to thy pleasure and disposal. And now, O glorious and blessed God, thou art mine, and I am thine. So be it. And the covenant which I have made on earth, let it be ratified in heaven. Amen.
It's never okay. There is forgiveness, but it came at high price, Tex. It may be necessary within the fallen world context, but it is never correct.
yep...you're just straight-up, outright, no-ballz-about-it...WRONG.
mad-dog on the property? poisonous snake about to bite somebody? killer in my house? terrorist on the loose?
Yup, it's absolutely correct...in fact? it's a duty...
when your brother or child is about to be maimed or killed, and I (or whoever) instead kill the attacker? you'll get it, then...
or maybe *you* won't
but *they* will...
Posted by Griffon on :
"when your brother or child is about to be maimed or killed, and I (or whoever) instead kill the attacker? you'll get it, then..."
when I had a gun to my chest and a knife in my leg, I did not strike back. And that action spared a village. Was that the wrong choice?
I said killing is at times necessary because of the fallen nature of this world. I simply say, that does not make it morally or ethically right. We have different worldviews Tex, but that does not make me wrong, nor does my worldview negate yours.
Posted by T e x on :
"when I had a gun to my chest and a knife in my leg, I did not strike back. And that action spared a village. Was that the wrong choice?"
sounds like they had the drop on ya, eh? Unless you're saying you declined to employ your superhuman, ninja powers... lol
of course, discretion/valor, etc... foolish to put ego/revenge above "saving a village."
Yes, we have different worldviews: in mine, killing is not only sometimes necessary but also is both the moral and ethical choice...not to mention practical.
"I said killing is at times necessary because . . . "
"It's never okay. "
DOH!
OK...here's our compromise...guy's got his knife at your throat?but you don't want me to shoot him. Your personal conviction, etc. ... OK. I'll see if you can pull off another "village-saving" manuever, out of respect for your personal philosphy. If he doesn't cut your throat, I save a bullet. PLUS, I don't have to listen to your panty-wadded nagging about my killing him against your conviction blah blah blah for the next twenty years... BUT if he does cut your throat? THEN I'll kill him...
See? I *do* respect others' worldviews . . .
Posted by glassman on :
LOL tex....
Posted by Bob Frey on :
Not sure what planet these folks are landing from but!
I can tell you and any one if a country or group was sending 100+ bombs a day into Miami or any other part of our country the would be vaporised, I hope!
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
said killing is at times necessary because of the fallen nature of this world. I simply say, that does not make it morally or ethically right. We have different worldviews Tex, but that does not make me wrong, nor does my worldview negate yours.
Griffon,
I do not understand how you can advocate keeping troops in Iraq or sending them anywhere else in in the world for any reason where they might have to kill and then say these troops are morally and ethically wrong when they have to kill.
Posted by Griffon on :
"BUT if he does cut your throat? THEN I'll kill him... See? I *do* respect others' worldviews . ."
I wouldn't have you kill the person even then Tex, but I respect your right to make a decision.
Posted by Griffon on :
Iwish,
Have you ever heard of the expression, "Can't win for losing?" Or have you ever heard of a "no win scenario?" Killing is just that, no win. We have been conditioned to accept killing as a trade off, the lesser of two evils, but I have to ask, "Is the 'lesser' of two evils, good?" Is it not still evil?
Can we not find a better way, or must we surrender to clubbing each other to death. Your statement gets at the absolute hypocricy of this world and the seductive, corrupting nature of sin. We are so broken in our humanity that we cannot conceive other peace-building methods. So good, young people die and kill to keep us safe. None of us can win ethically.
That people believe killing can be moral and ethical is understandable in the context of ending a greater injustice, but it is still evil. I say the troops should stay because this is the way a sinful world conducts foreign policy, not because it is good to kill. My earnest hope is there presence would restrain some that would kill on a far grander scale, but that still does not make it ethically right. It is the broken system we must work to prevent all expression of in the future, and I hope your generation can find a better answer.
It is the greatest of sin, but as with all sin there can be forgiveness, as long as we acknowledge it is wrong and in sincere repentence, which means full change of heart and life. I am saying do not celebrate killing, as I know you do not, and recognize the physical, social, emotional toll it takes and thank God for the work they are doing. But I am also saying challenge our leaders to empower them to come home one day able to forever cast their weapons aside because their efforts brought lasting peace and stability to the region.
The problem with the idea that killing is ever morally or ethically good continues because it continues the cycle of violence to another generation. The old addage, "an eye for an eye leaves both persons blind" can be carried into the question should I kill. The cycle never ends.
Serbia and Bosnia fought around 1000 CE around Kosovo, but I don't remember the battlefield name. As Yugoslavia disintegrated and the killings began Serb troops were screaming for revenge for that battle. That was their battlecry. That is the response killing gets, generations longing for revenge until no one really remembers what the fight was about in the first place.
Jews and Muslims have fought over Palestine for 150 years, did you know that? I bet you thought it has always been this way. People talk about Isaac and Ishmael, two tribes from Abraham at odds since the Patriarchal period around 2750 bce. But Arabs only came into Palestine around 700 ce. The old story we have been taught to justify the fatalism of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a lie, not found in the Bible or in any of the writings of Judaism or Islam until the time of the sinful Crusades, 1100 ce.
This was the great divide between Islam, Judaism and Christianity. Why? Property, physical and ideological. The occasional "culling" as people on each side called their pogroms against each other, did not really peak again until the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. The Palestinian national identity began with the Ottoman re-structuring of the empire about 1750, coming to full flower with Lawrence of Arabia, betrayed in 1920.
As the Jewish population grew in the Levant, especially in Palestine, bad blood began to simmer. And yet, if you read Elias Chacour and Christian Palestinians, they were willing to open Palestine to Israelis after WWII and share the land. Israel embarked on ethnic cleansing, Arabs embarked on isolated instances of genocide, and the region has been at war pretty much every 10 years every since.
The mytho-poetic historiography has grown up around the events until both sides have absolute villains and heroes, real and imagined hurts and a thirst for killing. This is what killing does. Our troops must prevent that killing and minimize their own killing.
Can you imagine the response the Arab world is contemplating because of the incident that spawned this thread? Killing promotes more killing. Iwish, the nature of the world compels us to compromise our ethics, sin does that, we must choose which is the least of two evils. But that does not make the least evil "good." Tex had it right in saying there is no pleasure in it.
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: "BUT if he does cut your throat? THEN I'll kill him... See? I *do* respect others' worldviews . ."
I wouldn't have you kill the person even then Tex, but I respect your right to make a decision.
glad we got that settled...
man... I been on pins 'n neeeeeedles over here
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: "BUT if he does cut your throat? THEN I'll kill him... See? I *do* respect others' worldviews . ."
I wouldn't have you kill the person even then Tex, but I respect your right to make a decision.
I wouldn't have you lay down like a tied goat--but, as posted, would respect your decision...
Posted by Griffon on :
As have I, bet my answer surprised you to haha. You fish at all?
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: As have I, bet my answer surprised you to haha. You fish at all?
yup...love to go fishin' ....doesn't bother me, either. If I fell in da water? They'd eat me...
your answer surprise? no....
I see you struggling...do admire that. But no, nothing you've posted so far is surprising...
Posted by Griffon on :
I fish to eat, not just for sport. My brother and I fish usually starting in April through October. Usually we break for July because the bite is way off.
Some days it's as though we don't fish. Can't catch 'em, other days we knock 'em dead. You ever get up this way, let us know, we'll throw lines with you.
Posted by glassman on :
here in the MS delta? you can't eat the fish cuz of the agricultural runoff.... thanx to farmers, all the way up into Canada....
Fish Tissue Quality in the Lower Mississippi River - Between 1990 and 1994, the Louisiana Department of Environmental Quality (LDEQ), in coordination with the US EPA, collected samples of 3 shellfish and 16 fish species at 6 sites along the lower Mississippi River. Organic compound and heavy metal concentrations were measured in 161 composite fish tissue samples where each composite included 3 to 10 individual fish. Nineteen chemicals, found at measurable concentrations in the sample tissues, were used in calculations of cancer and non-cancer risks due to fish consumption. LDEQ calculated: 574 chemical-specific cancer risks; 41 total cancer risks; and 697 margins of exposure based on a fish consumption rate of one 8-ounce meal per week, a body weight of 70 kg, and reported cancer potency factors and reference doses. LDEQ found 9 fish species of concern based on total cancer risk greater than 10(-4) or a margin of exposure greater than 1. These species included the blue catfish, carp, channel catfish, cobia, crayfish, flathead catfish, red drum, spotted gar and striped bass. Chemical contaminants responsible for the elevated cancer risks were aldrin, dieldrin, alpha-benzene hexachloride, gamma-benzene hexachloride, heptachlor epoxide, arsenic, and mercury.
-------------------------------------------------- For Immediate Release: October 14, 2004
Contact: Liz Hitchcock, 202-546-9707 New Report Finds 20 States Increased Warnings for Mercury in Fish in 2003 Controversial Bush Plan Would Delay Cleanup for at Least 10 Years Posted by T e x on :
The Trinity River from near my neighborhood at least to Lake Livingston is no good, cuz of the Metroblister (D/FW)... which is a crying shame, cuz that estuary is quite important. But there's still lotssa good water, here.
Posted by glassman on :
they still cropdust down here....
every place you go? they got signs up saying don't eat this don't eat that....
basically? the thresh-hold i show old the fish are...
it's mostly pesticide run-off... these are all pesticides or the metabolites of pesticides... aldrin, dieldrin, alpha-benzene hexachloride, gamma-benzene hexachloride, heptachlor epoxide, arsenic....
mercury is another story....
Posted by T e x on :
well, plus...as you mention, the big river is draining a HUGE watershed...all da bad chit gets funneled your way...
Posted by bdgee on :
Yep, all through the pulpwood paper milling south east, from the Atlantic to deep into East Texas, mercury is a worse problem that pesticides, mostly because the giant paper corporations play the various legeslatures and governors and the U.S. Forest Service like they were honkytonk blues guitars.
I had more than one round with them when I lived in that part of the world.
Posted by bond006 on :
I know that I am coming into this tail end charlie but if you look at most wars when they started to keep records from wwII on it is the civilians that really take the hit and the military a lot less. Plain and simple a civilian is in more danger today in a war zone than somebody in the military. And that is terrible
Posted by NaturalResources on :
Israel admits mistakes in deadly raid
By MARK LAVIE, Associated Press Writer
JERUSALEM - The Israeli military's inquiry on the bombing of a building in the south Lebanese village of Qana that killed 56 civilians admits a mistake but charges that Hezbollah guerrillas used civilians as human shields for their rocket attacks, a statement early Thursday said.
.....
In a statement summarizing the inquiry findings, the military said Israel did not know there were civilians in the building.
"Had the information indicated that civilians were present ... the attack would not have been carried out," the statement said.
The bombing followed guidelines regarding attacking "suspicious structures" in villages where civilians have been warned to evacuate, the statement said, adding that Hezbollah forces "use civilian structures inside villages to store weaponry and hide in after launching rocket attacks."
It's easy to not know something when you don't care enough to find out.
quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: Israel admits mistakes in deadly raid
By MARK LAVIE, Associated Press Writer
JERUSALEM - The Israeli military's inquiry on the bombing of a building in the south Lebanese village of Qana that killed 56 civilians admits a mistake but charges that Hezbollah guerrillas used civilians as human shields for their rocket attacks, a statement early Thursday said.
.....
In a statement summarizing the inquiry findings, the military said Israel did not know there were civilians in the building.
"Had the information indicated that civilians were present ... the attack would not have been carried out," the statement said.
The bombing followed guidelines regarding attacking "suspicious structures" in villages where civilians have been warned to evacuate, the statement said, adding that Hezbollah forces "use civilian structures inside villages to store weaponry and hide in after launching rocket attacks."
That's precisely the problem with all war. Civilians pay with their lives while the real cuplrits usually go unharmed.
See: Osama Bin Laden
quote:Originally posted by bond006: I know that I am coming into this tail end charlie but if you look at most wars when they started to keep records from wwII on it is the civilians that really take the hit and the military a lot less. Plain and simple a civilian is in more danger today in a war zone than somebody in the military. And that is terrible
Posted by NaturalResources on :
Hezbollah leader vows 'open war'
Saturday, 15 July 2006
.....
Sheikh Nasrallah threatened Israel, saying: "You wanted an open war and we are ready for an open war."
The Hezbollah leader promised "war on every level". He said the Israeli coastal city of Haifa would come under attack, "and believe me, even beyond Haifa".
"Our homes will not be the only ones to be destroyed, our children will not be the only ones to die," he said.
Huh! An eye for an eye apparently doesn't work in the Middle East. Come to think of it, it doesn't work for America either.
Posted by NaturalResources on :
Dossier:
Hassan Nasrallah Secretary-General of Hezbollah
by Gary C. Gambill
In late January, tens of thousands of people lined the road leading from Beirut International Airport into the capital to greet the return of 23 Lebanese militants recently released from Israeli prisons. Fireworks lit the sky above the predominantly Shiite southern suburbs of Beirut and street celebrations continued late into the night. Equally exuberant, if less flashy, festivities took place in the West Bank and Gaza as over 400 Palestinian prisoners returned to their homes. The homecoming of so many people accused of planning or carrying out violence against Israelis did not result from a breakthrough in the peace process - indeed, it came just hours after the deadliest suicide bombing to hit Israel in months. In exchange for its mass repatriation of Arab combatants, the Jewish state obtained the release of a single Israeli citizen (and the remains of three others) held by the militant Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah movement.
Natural resources, Do not forget please that Israeli soldiers who shot and killed Palestinian children, ages 5-6, and an American for "target practice." And they were acquitted by the Jewish court system two days before that release of 400 Palestinians. The 400 people were not all accused of planning or carrying out violence.
And do not forget, Hezbollah formed out of the ashes of Sabra and Shatila massacres in Southern Lebanon. It was an action carried out by Christian Phalange militia, supported by IDF and directed by Ariel Sharon.
I am not against Israel, but we need to be honest in our look at Israel/Palestine. Atrocities have occured on both sides, committed from both sides.
Posted by glassman on :
I am not against Israel, but we need to be honest in our look at Israel/Palestine. Atrocities have occured on both sides, committed from both sides.
pointless..... that's no solution... just an excuse...
Posted by Griffon on :
"pointless....."
yes, pointless atrocities. There is no other kind
Posted by bdgee on :
That's not true.
Adolph's gas chambers were atrocities and he had a distinct point: exterminate jews.
Posted by Griffon on :
"Adolph's gas chambers were atrocities and he had a distinct point: exterminate jews"
No, the gas chambers are an inanimate object, thus they are not atrocities, in specific. The specific atrocity connected to the gas chambers is Hitler's gassing of Jews and other ethnic minorities, homosexuals and whatever his friends considered genetic misfits. But make no mistake, they were still pointless, no matter the point he was trying to make, Bdgee.
"pointless..... that's no solution... just an excuse..."
Acknowledging where the problem came from is part of the solution. The rest I set out in another thread.
Posted by bdgee on :
They were atrocities.
a·troc·i·ty Audio pronunciation of "atrocity" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-trs-t) n. pl. a·troc·i·ties
1. Appalling or atrocious condition, quality, or behavior; monstrousness. 2. An appalling or atrocious act, situation, or object, especially an act of unusual or illegal cruelty inflicted by an armed force on civilians or prisoners.
Even were an atrocity restricted to being an act rather than a thing, then I reword:
The use of Adolph's gas chambers was an atrocity and he had a distinct point: exterminate jews.
The problems you are trying to say came from activities of Clintoin came from dubya's idiocy and sheer neglect.
You need to acknowledge the simple fact that hating Clinton isn't a solution to anything, specially correcting the mess dubya has gottn the world into.
Posted by Griffon on :
"You need to acknowledge the simple fact that hating Clinton isn't a solution to anything, specially correcting the mess dubya has gottn the world into."
Iwish, Clinton and Bush both failed us. You need to acknowledge that.
"then I reword"
That's nice but are you now speaking for bdgee?
"dubya's idiocy"
This type of hate language closes minds to your message.
"hating Clinton"
I express no hatred of Clinton. I was disappointed in him and remain so. He let 5,000,000 persons of color die for the sake of staying in power. His inaction led to the on-going genocide in Sudan. They admit it themselves, Bill Clinton has said Rwanda was his biggest mistake.
Also, you say:
"The problems you are trying to say came from activities of Clintoin came from dubya's idiocy and sheer neglect."
Untrue. There are two seperate issues. I blame Clinton's inactivity in Africa for the genocide in Africa and failure to get UBL when he had three clear opportunities. I blame GB for not having an exit strategy for Iraq. Is that not saying both have let us down? I blame GB for GITMO, is that not pointing to his failing?
You APPEAR to proceed from the assumption that I support GB, which is a false assumption as we have been through.
On the subject of Israel/Palestine, which is the topic I was commenting upon, I was merely pointing out that lest we seek to demonize the Palestinian people group, we should remember why they are acting the way they are so we avoid the same mistakes in the future. That does not mean stop preventing the attacks on Israel, but it means begin laying the groundwork for a peace that lasts beyond re-arming and re-populating. It's that annoying premise I have that our actions now should reflect our desire to never commit troops to battle again. I have the impression that we are of an accord in this regard.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
That's partially true, but this "President's" endless bungling and stupidity has made Clinton, Carter, Nixon, and even Bush Sr. look like golden Gods by comparison.
On the bright side, he's good for a laugh. I can't think of anyone else who has succeeded by failing as often as W.
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: Iwish, Clinton and Bush both failed us. You need to acknowledge that.
Posted by bdgee on :
Yeah, you are a Clinton hater (first, second, third , and finally) and a terribly prolific and insulting one, Griffon.
And you go on and on and on......
Posted by Griffon on :
"Yeah, you are a Clinton hater (first, second, third , and finally) and a terribly prolific and insulting one, Griffon. And you go on and on and on......"
No insult at all. I find it rather amusing that you keep insisting I hate Clinton. Obviously you aren't trying to tell me what I think. As a former Democrat, I am calling upon my party to wake up. That you refuse to wake up about the situation in Africa, which would be a winnable issue for Dems by the way, is what has gone tragically wrong with the party that used to espouse a Human Rights foreign policy.
Posted by Griffon on :
"terribly prolific and insulting one"
yes having logicians' debates is fun to me. If you feel over-whelmed or insulted, there are many other threads I leave you to enjoy in peace. Why the fascination with what I say?
Posted by glassman on :
That you refuse to wake up about the situation in Africa, which would be a winnable issue for Dems by the way, is what has gone tragically wrong with the party that used to espouse a Human Rights foreign policy.
as a former and current GOP? i say you are full of it....
nobody in America right now (except a few nut cases) is interested in invading other countries to "fix them"... GOP or Dem... that is because we are currently stuck with the war in Iraq for the next several years...
and? we are facing down Iran and N. Korea...
you have great ideals griffo... but we live in the real world....
Posted by Griffon on :
"but we live in the real world...."
so do I glass. And that real world is what we must fight to change. I want a better world for our next generations. Thank you for commenting on the ideals. I think you have good and sincere conviction as well. You and I differ on how we will achieve that better real world and that is okay.
"interested in invading other countries to "fix them"..."
But we are obliged to under UN conventions that we have signed. We are in effect ignoring the genocide in Sudan to this day. I say the world will not get better on its own, we have to struggle, even to rage against the dying of the light. Besides as I will post another thread in a minute: the US doesn't need to do it all. But we can focus a light on world situations until the world community deals with the issue.
For one, even when we disagree Glass, I enjoy our "sparring" sessions, and I do say that for lack of a better descriptor, because it helps me think through issues. I am not afraid to disagree strongly and still see a fellow person across the table trying to make sense of it all too. That's why I often say when I'm leaving, pick it up tomorrow. These boards are a diversion, but they also give me pause to think.
Posted by bdgee on :
"yes having logicians' debates is fun to me. If you feel over-whelmed or insulted, there are many other threads I leave you to enjoy in peace. Why the fascination with what I say?"
Looking up at the framed logicians credentials hanging on the wall of my office, believe me, there is never going to be the chance I will feel "overwhelmed" by the excuse for reason and logic you put forth.
I have asked before, more than once, that you refrain from insult and crude declarations of what others think or do. You clearly have no idea of what others think or do or you wouldn't be so constantly off base.
Unless you actually are simple minded enough to imagine people like it when you equate them to insignificance and evil. Should that be the case and you are actually that stupid, then just quit anyway as it offensive, crude, and immature.
I am tired of asking!
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Will you treat others on here with the same respect you ask for Bdgee?
Posted by glassman on :
But we are obliged to under UN conventions that we have signed
the UN? Bush has nearly broken the UN.. we won't know if it can survive 'til after the Iran issue...
if you go back to the beginning of the Iraq war? Bush's people told US it would cost 80 billion and take months...not 6 to 7billion a month for years....
and? they said Iraq is a wealthy nation that can bear the cost of the war...LOL....
Posted by bdgee on :
I do, but not you.
You and your brother have NEVER treated the people here with respect.
Any time anyone questions one of your claims or corrects some thing you claim, rather than admitting that fact or encorporating it into your knowledge, you respond, just as you have now, with an insulting remark, declaring them unfit to be. It isn't respect, you display, it is contempt.
Now, watch, rather than listening and learning, you or your brother or both will choose retaliation and call me some name or make some intended vile insinuation. You have no honor or character, just gall and arrogance.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Glassman, You make excellent points. To cite the UN in defense of Bush administration policy is nothing more than a bad joke.
Bdgee, I understand your frustration. Like most intelligent people, I enjoy a spirited debate. Thus, the evasive and boorish non-responses Griffon consistently spews forth are particularly exasperating.
Don't let the turkeys get you down.
Posted by Griffon on :
GB and bdgee, since I offer no evasive answers, and as my posts showed you are completely wrong on my usage of religio-phobia and Islamofascism, let's get to the real issue. How should the world community respond to the killing of so many people in the town many consider to be the Biblical site of Jesus' first miracle?
Glass said: "the UN? Bush has nearly broken the UN"
No, it has been dying for a long time, but Oil for Food, which is not connected to Bush, is the nail in the coffin.
Let's face it, bdgee you saying I have been rude and boorish is like the pot calling the kettle black. GB, as an intelligent person who likes spirited debate, I look forward to our conversations. In fact, I have set aside almost the whole weekend to sit on this computer o chat with you all. It is fun, and I continue to learn from the lively debates. I was told when I first came on here, by Glass, that "we all like to pretend we're right about everything" or some such statement. Well I took it to heart. As have you all in our debates. Fun time isn't it?
Posted by glassman on :
No, it has been dying for a long time, but Oil for Food, which is not connected to Bush, is the nail in the coffin.
typical party line trash....of course there is corruption at the UN, but oil-for food is a smoke-screen....
Cheney was doing busines with sadam and iran too...thru HAL and KRB... you guys are blinded...
Bolton? Bush sent Bolton to the UN on whose authority?
you don't get it? we aren't buying your lies griffo..you aren't centrist... you aren't left-leaning..
if you are wearing a collar? ROVE is holding your leash....
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
That reminds me, it's a beautiful day outside. See you all later.
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: I have set aside almost the whole weekend to sit on this computer o chat with you all.
Posted by Griffon on :
Glass, you can't see the UN is a dying institution? Go look at what I presented for a renewed UN. Then let's talk.
"we aren't buying your lies griffo..you aren't centrist... you aren't left-leaning.."
Since I don't lie and back everything I say up with facts, we know I am a centrist, you just range so far to the left, I seem conservative. Let's face it you and I are trying to do the same thing to the parties we love. I am harsh in criticism of the Dems and you are harsh in condemning the Republicans. I have no problem with the effort to reform both parties, but let's be honest with who we are. Either you and I are both genuine in seeking to save our parties or you are a Republico-Democrat. Now there's a made up word.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
I agree. You don't back everything you say up with facts.
Thanks for the honesty.
quote:Originally posted by Griffon: Since I don't lie and back everything I say up with facts, we know I am a centrist.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Bdgee "I am again requesting that you cease, desist, abstain, stop, end, suspend, etc. (whatever word or words might get througfh to what you use in place if thought) declaring what I do, think, don't do, or don't think about anything as I am fed up with your childlike insults and insinuations.
I am not joking! "
And just an hour ago, he then once again, proceeds to do the exact thing he accuses us of
"Now, watch, rather than listening and learning, you or your brother or both will choose retaliation and call me some name or make some intended vile insinuation. You have no honor or character, just gall and arrogance."
Posted by bdgee on :
Put about an ounce of fact with several dozen tons of Party line rubish (and believe that crap represents fact), mix it all together, declare it to be a perfect response to questions that were never asked, then present it to the world as a solution.
Then, when someone who was shot at wiuth the loaded question you claim is answered by your load of s---t notices and points out that the whole mess contains only enough hint of truth to be measured in Parts per million, declare them to be something unsavory and label them according to rightwing terminology.
Next, should anyone dare to further question your right to attack them and to post volumes of party line rubish, cut and pasted so as to overwhelm with mass, and declared to be fact by the smartest possible person ever, post a resume of divinity degrees, simultaneously explaining it is impossible for anyone "there" to be so smart as to have gathjered that many degreesand thank them, therefore, to bow down to your so much greater intellect and wisedom and while they are bowed down to kiss your feet.
No thanks. I don't need any one so wise and thoughtful to help poor little uneducated ignorant me, particularly since it would be such a burdon to you.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Putting thoughts in our head and words in our mouth...... (the things Bdgee accuses us of)
And what is the reason you want to talk about Clinton? Because you don't want to admit that this is dubya's screw-up and no one else by him is responsible.
It's because of the training from the Party line:
When you get trapped by your own double speak and distortions, change the subject.....and being hateful and crude will cover up that you are changing the topic in order to run from the truth.
The only consensus you are interested in is a consensus that we aboid the fact that we are in Iraq as a result of Bush lies and deceptions.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
from the same person who wrote this.... "I am again requesting that you cease, desist, abstain, stop, end, suspend, etc. (whatever word or words might get througfh to what you use in place if thought) declaring what I do....."
comes this.......
"You guys write fiction and pass it back and forth among yourselves with no effort to tell the truth and expect us to believe it. You need to lay off that Party line crap and check out some actual history.
Now how many years did you attack the poor guy about Whitewater and you were proved to be completely full of it?
You pass it back and forth and back and forth without bothering to check the facts 'til you decided the lie is fact. You need to learn to stop the BS and learn to get your information from sources that don't pass it on to you along with the secret handshake of the Party."
Posted by bdgee on :
Yep
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Bdgee- "I have asked before, more than once, that you refrain from insult and crude declarations of what others think or do. You clearly have no idea of what others think or do or you wouldn't be so constantly off base. "
You are trying to reason with the anti-reasonable.
Remember, "Ignoraance is bliss" and "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free".
These guys are not about freedom, quite the opposite, in fact. Particularly they are not for freedom that might fall on your side of the street. So determined to disallow and disavow that freedom, for fear it doesn't place them and their causes paramount, they dodge out of the way of truth, for it might make you free.
They cling desparately to Bliss and the logical implication thereof.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Johnwayne, what is your point?
Posted by Johnwayne on :
throw in a little name calling..... "There is "the lie" placed on another of your silly assumptions meant to grant you authority. You are no authority on anything, that's just selfish arrogance you carry around"
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Egocentric nut......
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Gordo- My point is Bdgee whines about how he is treated while treating others, anyone theat disagrees with him, the same way. it is easy to be nice and friendly to those that agree with you and Bdgee does that well. But take a close look at those that disagree with him. Overall I would like to see Bdgee aknowledge that he has, on occasion, done the very same thing he accuses me of, and that we both have room for improvement in that area. As I posted somewhere today, we both should go back and re-examine our interaction with each other in an effort to keep things more cordial and productive. I would make a sincere effort if I felt Bdgee would offer to do the same.
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Who, Griffon?
If so, I couldn't agree more.
quote:Originally posted by Johnwayne: Egocentric nut......
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Hey how long did this Art guy last before this little cabal here ran him off?
Posted by bdgee on :
Is that a threat to go away and stop insulting us?
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Bdgee- "I have asked before, more than once, that you refrain from insult and crude declarations of what others think or do. You clearly have no idea of what others think or do or you wouldn't be so constantly off base. "
"That is the normal way they do things, by issuing loadaded questions and acting hurt and surprised that they don't get an answer.
Then they declare that the only answer their question allows is right because they didn't get an answer. It's about a jr high schoolers logical error, but we have been assured they can't make errors......to highly educated, ya know.... "
Posted by Johnwayne on :
"have asked before, more than once, that you refrain from insult and crude declarations of what others think or do. You clearly have no idea of what others think or do or you wouldn't be so constantly off base. "
"I didn't miss your point. I spotted it way back when you showed up declaring we need to adore you.
Now if you want, I can teach you things about grammer you never imagined. (On second thought, maybe not.....can't get blood out of a turnip.)"
Posted by Johnwayne on :
And that's one thread down
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: Is that a threat to go away and stop insulting us?
Posted by Griffon on :
Gana is believed by many scholars to be the biblical town of Cana. Ten years ago another massacre took place in that very town.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
I have asked before, more than once, that you refrain from insult and crude declarations of what others think or do. You clearly have no idea of what others think or do or you wouldn't be so constantly off base. "
JW wants to keep you from seeing these results.
Posted by Johnwayne on :
I have asked before, more than once, that you refrain from insult and crude declarations of what others think or do. You clearly have no idea of what others think or do or you wouldn't be so constantly off base. "
Yes, he thinks we think like the Limbauugh nation, only by directive from and according to Rush.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Johnwayne: Hey how long did this Art guy last before this little cabal here ran him off?
Art left on his own... he was not "run off" it is my understanding that he had a disagreement about censorship with the mangement..
i am not positive because he never told me, but that is my guess, and i have very good reasons to guess that..
he was quite abit above either of youz twoz level...
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
I'm not sure where you're headed, Johnwayne, but I'm outta here!
Posted by Johnwayne on :
Than you should feel ashamed that Griffon has been kicking your tail up and down this board for two weeks now.
Posted by NaturalResources on :
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
lol