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Author Topic: Why does the Democratic party support genocide!
glassman
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Costs to sit in the big chair, Glass.

really? and you think the big chair is a throne? LOL creeepy

YOU are arrogant

i'm telling you that you are simply being unrealistic...
nothing more nothing less..
a walk down memory with you to prove it...
things could be worse....

things are getting worse in Iraq now..

i watched CSPAN today, i watched the actual speeches delivered by the SCDEF and hillary and the others... not the newsboys rehashing it...the picture is grim..

and i also listened to Sessions of Georgia talk about how many steady jobs are being created by the war..right here in America...
and you know what? he was probably the only one there not lying....

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Johnwayne
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Oh jeeez, here comes Fox Mulder again.

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Thanks Matto. Thanks Juice.

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glassman
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LOL...


if civil war actually is declared over there? Sen. John Warner declared that Bush would have to return to congress for permission to proceed..

that is REPUBLICAN Sentor John Warner...

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Johnwayne
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You like that one Glass? I thought it was pretty good, and said with just a hint of humor!!!
Sorry about me bragging about my brother on the Israel thread.
You and my brother have both argued admirably since he arrived.

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Thanks Matto. Thanks Juice.

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Griffon
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Here we go Glass, the fundamental difference between the non-religious worldview is they see the big chair as priveledge or entitlement, Christians and other religious folks see that big chair as a call to serve. Jesus said, "Whoever among would be greatest, must become the least." His example of the place of a leader is given in John with the foot-washing of the disciples. His witness of the type of service is embodied on the Cross, blood-stained and sweat soaked.

As a Christian I take the folding chair as opposed to the cushioned chair, I walk through the dinner line last, because having the position of authority in my understanding of Christ's call means I come last and least.

Bill Clinton wanted that position his whole life, to hear his teachers talk. Well, the Office of President is a servant's office, not a king's. He had that reversed at times.

That means sometimes you have to be willing to take heat for what you know is right, the polls cannot dictate what is right or wrong.

"if civil war actually is declared over there? Sen. John Warner declared that Bush would have to return to congress for permission to proceed.."

I said that two weeks ago Glass.

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God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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glassman
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Christians and other religious folks see that big chair as a call to serve.

tell that to Bush? LOL...

"if civil war actually is declared over there? Sen. John Warner declared that Bush would have to return to congress for permission to proceed.."

I said that two weeks ago Glass.


just reminding you that the GOP is about fed up with "fearless leader"..
there were many more GOP quotes that were actually harsher..
i enjoyed hillary and rummy's exchange...

hillary slashed, and rummy condescended to respond....

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Johnwayne
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I think Warner is right in doing so.

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Thanks Matto. Thanks Juice.

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Griffon
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"tell that to Bush? LOL..."

This thread is not about Bush, it's about Clinton in the big chair. I agree the Bush sees his service to the country in the wrong light, as do all people who are too wealthy for their britches. But that's my point about all of them. You get a decent days work in you, it changes how you view people. We build Habitat houses up here and down your way post-Katrina, and you sit across from the guy that ten, twelve hours ago was a stranger, it changes things.

Those folks don't do that, generally, except for photo ops. Grandma used to say, "If your hands ain't calloused, you ain't working. Farmin' ain't no place for soft hands. Soft hands make for a soft head and a hard-heart."

These folks in Washington got to that point: so far removed from the situation in Mississippi or Iowa...you name the place. And that's what's got to change. Both parties need a wake up call. I'm going to my old party, I'm hitting 'em hard "between the eyes" so-to-speak because I can't do it the way General patton said, "Loud and dirty so it sticks." So I provoke in the hope that one day, someone will get mad enough to listen.

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God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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glassman
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look? this thread is basically a waste if you aren't going to apply the principles to the time zone the rest of US are living in.....

done is done...
i don't like clinton, i don't like hillary, i don't like Bush..

maybe McCain? maybe not...i once liked him but he started hanging out with Falwell.

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IWISHIHAD
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Those folks don't do that, generally, except for photo ops. Grandma used to say, "If your hands ain't calloused, you ain't working. Farmin' ain't no place for soft hands. Soft hands make for a soft head and a hard-heart."

Griffon,

I do not think that holds true today if you take it literally, the times they are a changing and so are the jobs.

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Johnwayne
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I don't believe history is ever a waste.....

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Thanks Matto. Thanks Juice.

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IWISHIHAD
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I like McCain but i really wonder if he would survive the presidency it seems to me his health would be a real question it appears from watching him the last few years he does not look very good, i think all that POW stuff has taken a big toll.
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glassman
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agreed iwish...

too bad rove slandered him in the primaries way back in '00 huh?

the guy is so close to being a traitor? i can't believe he's allowed a clearance to wash the white house windows, much less be bush's close advisor......he has no scruples...

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glassman
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more from the '00 debate with Gore:

BUSH: Make a couple comments.

MODERATOR: Sure, absolutely, sure. Somalia.

BUSH: Started off as a humanitarian mission and it changed into a nation-building mission, and that's where the mission went wrong. The mission was changed. And as a result, our nation paid a price. And so I don't think our troops ought to be used for what's called nation-building. I think our troops ought to be used to fight and win war. I think our troops ought to be used to help overthrow the dictator when it's in our best interests. But in this case it was a nation-building exercise, and same with Haiti. I wouldn't have supported either.


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glassman
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here's wher i've been leading you grifoon..

BUSH: I think the administration did the right thing in that case. I do. It was a horrible situation, no one liked to see it on our TV screens, but it's a case where we need to make sure we have an early warning system in place in places where there could be ethnic cleansing and genocide the way we saw it there in Rwanda. And that's a case where we need to use our influence to have countries in Africa come together and help deal with the situation. The administration, seem like we're having a great love for us tonight, but the administration made the right decision on training Nigerian troops for situations just such as this in Rwanda, and so I thought they made the right decision not to send U.S. troops into Rwanda.

MODERATOR: Do you have any second thoughts on that, based on what you said a moment ago about genocide?

GORE: I'd like to come back to the question of nation building, but let me address the question directly, first. Fine. We did, actually, send troops into Rwanda to help with the humanitarian relief measures. My wife Tipper, who is here, actually went on a military plane with General Sholicatchvieli on one of those flights. But I think in retrospect we were too late getting in there. We could have saved more lives if we had acted earlier. But I do not think that it was an example of a conflict where we should have put our troops in to try to separate the parties for this reason, Jim. One of the criteria that I think is important in deciding when and if we should ever get involved around the world is whether or not our national security interest is involved, if we can really make the difference with military forces. We tried everything else.


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glassman
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in case you missed it? Bush said:but the administration made the right decision on training Nigerian troops for situations just such as this in Rwanda, and so I thought they made the right decision not to send U.S. troops into Rwanda.


http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2000b.html

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Griffon
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Clinton was in power, he failed and hondreds of thousand died. Bush is wrong in the quote. Easy enough to see. Something he realized when his time in office came. Problem is he never planned for the nation-building and Iran was never going to let that happen.

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God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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bdgee
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Griffon, can't you get it through your head that you have not been declared debate supervisor and have no say in what is talked about here?
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Griffon
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"Griffon, can't you get it through your head that you have not been declared debate supervisor and have no say in what is talked about here?"

Whiner. I have it through my head bdgee, it's just my comment to segue back to the purpose I began the thread with. Now that we have confirmed the Clinton said he was wrong for allowing the genocide to happen, this thread is pretty well done.

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God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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glassman
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this? this is where things get inside out and backwards:

MODERATOR: Vice President Gore, do you agree with the governor's views on nation building, the use of military, our military, for nation building as he described and defined it?

GORE: I don't think we agree on that. I would certainly also be judicious in evaluating any potential use of American troops overseas. I think we have to be very reticent about that. But look, Jim, the world is changing so rapidly. The way I see it, the world is getting much closer together. Like it or not, we are now -- the United States is now the natural leader of the world.



GOP? Democrat? liberal? conservative? who cares anymore? LOL

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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by Griffon:
Clinton was in power, he failed and hondreds of thousand died. Bush is wrong in the quote. Easy enough to see. Something he realized when his time in office came. Problem is he never planned for the nation-building and Iran was never going to let that happen.

Bush is wrong? LOL

MODERATOR: So what would you say, Governor, that somebody would say hey wait a minute, why not Africa, I mean why the Middle East, why the Balkans, but not Africa, when 600,000 people's lives are at risk?

BUSH: Well, I understand, and Africa is important. And we've got to do a lot of work in Africa to promote democracy and trade, and there are some -- Vice President mentioned Nigeria is a fledgling democracy. We have to work with Nigeria. That's an important continent. But there's got to be priorities, and Middle East is a priority for a lot of reasons, as is Europe and the Far East, our own hemisphere. And those are my four top priorities should I be the president, not to say we won't be engaged nor work hard to get other nations to come together to prevent atrocity. I thought the best example of a way to handle the situation was East Timor when we provided logistical support to the Australians, support that only we can provide. I thought that was a good model. But we can't be all things to all people in the world, Jim. And I think that's where maybe the vice president and I begin to have some differences. I'm worried about overcommitting our military around the world. I want to be judicious in its use. You mentioned Haiti. I wouldn't have sent troops to Haiti. I didn't think it was a mission worthwhile. It was a nation building mission, and it was not very successful. It cost us billions, a couple billions of dollars, and I'm not so sure democracy is any better off in Haiti than it was before.


http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2000b.html

face it griffo....

you can't "play God" you either kill people? or stay the hell out of their business....

this isn't the computer game syms....

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bdgee
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The title of the thread is "Why does the Democratic party support genocide!" which was clearly a devious attempt to desguise a partisian political lie of the RNC as a supoposed question, which in turn was a guise to twist and turn legitimate political discussion that was treading on the deceit and hypocrisy of the Administration into attacks on Clinton, i.e., to change the subject.
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glassman
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now? griffo?

will you accept that i am Republican, not ashamed, and disagree with my current party leadership, because? basically?

i don't see 911 as a worldchanging event in the SAME way the admin does?

IF? if i were an influential politician? i would have fixed our BORDERS (duh)...

and i would have finished Afganistan... or maybe i should say would still be improving Afghanistan....

the fact that our borders are still so porous leads me to believe that Bush doesn't take terrorism seriously at all...and NEVER did.. not before or after 911...
just one more reason to be very suspicious...VERY suspicious...

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Griffon
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Nope. The purpose of the thread is to challenge my former party to reclaim its human rights identity.

"face it griffo....
you can't "play God" you either kill people? or stay the hell out of their business....
this isn't the computer game syms...."

Neither was the genocide Glass. What you are suggesting is Clinton did the right thing in letting 800,000 Rwandans and 1,200,000 Sudanese human beings die. Period. That is what you advocate. Let me tell you something I am sure you know: those dead bodies floating down the river weren't part of a video game either. They were human beings, and we should have done more.

But after all, why go to Bush's statement, when Bill Clinton spoke of his actions, his moral cowardice, going to Rwanda and saying we were wrong. Who's changing the subject, guys? Where is Bush mentioned in the topic? Who has a political agenda? Not me, I'm afraid. I just point out the inconvenient truth, for political reasons Bill Clinton's administration blocked action at the UN, and the administration's action effectively aided and abetted genocide in Rwanda. When you go out of your way to make sure "genocide" is not part of the document so you skirt international law, you aid genocide by not acting against it.

Did we not say, "Never again!" After WW II? Did we not sign an agreement formalizing what "Never again" means? We did and Clinton skirted it because it wasn't politically expedient. And you are being apologists for that decision. 2,000,000 people dead during his administration in those two countries alone.

"legitimate political discussion"

who decides what legitimate political discussion is? In an open forum, if I choose to discuss historical politics, then it is a legitimate political discussion presented for debate.

"to change the subject."

please note the legitimately presented political topic for discussion: "Why does the Democratic party support genocide." Can we agree that is the subject I posted to discuss? As this is an Off-Topic Forum, meaning I cannot talk about investments in my threads, have I crossed that threshold of propriety? No. Do the rules anywhere limit the parameters of political debate to the current administration? I am not aware of any such rule.

Who then is changing the subject of this legitimately presented thread? bdgee. Did you have the option of posting in this thread? Yes you did, as I stay away from the bait set to offend my supposed sensibilities. I just laugh 'em off so you have that freedom when you see me post. So I have to ask, why not just avoid the discussion if you disagree with the posted topic or the presenter so stongly?

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God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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bdgee
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And if someone else wants to discuss the political scam of the far far righ wing religious zelots blaming Clinton for the crap their hero dubya got us into, that to, by the same reasoning is acceptabel and YOU NEED TO ACCEPT THATor stop complaing about them.
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glassman
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international law

this is where i start having problems...

i think the UN is important....

i think it's a good place for dialogue and diplomacy...
consensus building, etc...

BUT?

i'm not that thrilled about international laws in generel...

i've been around too many Europeans that wanted to tell me how to live in my own damn country...

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andrew
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So do you all think that a democrat has a chance this next election to be President. And IF so...Who has the best chance? Humor me. I dont see a democrat being elected President for the next 8 maybe 12 years.
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glassman
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i see no democrats that have anything to offer right now... Hillary is; well, Hillary...yuk..

i could vote for Biden... if i couldn't vote GOP again... there are GOPs i won't vote for too.. like Allen... that guy reminds me of Gore.. only dumber...

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Griffon
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Bdgee says: "And if someone else wants to discuss the political scam of the far far righ wing religious zelots blaming Clinton for the crap their hero dubya got us intoYOU NEED TO ACCEPT THATor stop complaing about them."

You bet in your own threads. It's obvious the topic is so upsetting to you, you can't respect the basic humanity of a person who disagrees with you. I already do tolerate other opinions, bdgee.

The problem is that this site is not your own personal fiefdom anymore than it is mine. It SEEMS that you do not want to hear any other viewpoint which is exactly what Amazon.com says. I do not complain about anything in your provocative threads. Look at the threads posted with titles that you SEEM to have thought would get my ire. I'm not in them. I respect peoples' right to have their own opinion. I respect a person's right to say nasty things about my person. But when I am in a thread people enter simply to say false things in reference to my person ("Egocentric nut" posted by bdgee July 23, 2006 21:41 Clinton Vietnam)I will challenge such behavior on the basis of its inaccuracy. When I am advised to watch a decapitation video, I will refuse such graciousness because it is in reality, hypocricy.

It's simple, "Off Topic" does not mean "Bush bashers only." People who are centrist like me or conservative like my brother will speak to issues of the day with a different perspective as is our right.

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God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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glassman
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grifoon you is centrist? right....

so is Bush...

funny huh?

Bush says he wants to stop genocide too..

and? so is Gore... But Clinton? he's a conservative cuz he didn't want to interfere in another countries affairs since it would be meddling, and our national security wasn't involved...

LOL...

and? now?
Leiberamn? he and Hillary are real Hawks...they want to take over the military and do the job right... but the core of the democrats are peaceniks who want to cut-n-run?

does that cover it all? or did i miss one of the other looney tunes?

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bdgee
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You have no basic humanity, just basic arrogance.

Had you any humanity, basic or not, you would stop belaboring the pack of lies you constantly spew in oh so very much too long dialongs that really is noting but an overt atempt at patting yourself on the back.


Get over you egomania.

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Griffon
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I should make one correction, I did enter the Israel-Lebanon thread. Note, not about Clinton, but about historical relations between Israel, Hezbollah, and Lebanon.

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God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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Griffon
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"You have no basic humanity, just basic arrogance. Had you any humanity, basic or not, you would stop belaboring the pack of lies you constantly spew in oh so very much too long dialongs that really is noting but an overt atempt at patting yourself on the back. Get over you egomania."

Hit a nerve Bdgee, get used to it cause as a nice humble, gentle, courteous Christian, I will present here. I have no ego, I need no ego, my hope is built on nothing than Jesus' blood and righteousness and I need nothing more.

You need to examine your own name-calling and hypocricy my friend before you attack me. You are the one who started putting words in the other's mouth. I'd love to correct you more, but we need to get back to why Clinton let those people die, all people of color, and for a war crime that Clinton acknowledged his indirect complicity in. No more distractions bdgee, let's be about the issue or let's move on. I prefer the latter.

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God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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