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Author Topic: Why does the Democratic party support genocide!
Leo
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Posting that PM over and over is getting as tiring as Monkey reposting BS analyst reports over and over on the GZFX thread. lol
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glassman
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Griffon welcome to Allstocks..
i mean that....
i hope you figured out that we don't reallty have any ettiquette 'round here...

if ya have an idea spit it out...

we'll tell you what we really think...

and most of us here know we aren't always right.... but we act like we are never wrong so the newbies will have faith that somebody really does have a clue what's going on in the markets and the world in general....

if you really are studying for the ministry? my hat's off to you... unless it's rabbinical? then my hat is ON to you...
even there? people will look to you for answers you don't have, and it will really dispapoint them if you actually admit that, so don't... [Wink]

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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T e x
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quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Bennett:
I received this note from Relentless, The Realist.

[Big Grin] LOL

"You said yesterday I seemed almost gleefull about the coming world war..
I am actually.. but not because I want death for millions, and not because I'm a war monger.. But because of what will result from this war.
You as a commie and me as a facist pig want pretty much the same thing.. A new government.
Ours has become way too strong... Not because of bush or any of the others.. but because of our laziness as a people..
The problem now is there is no way votes will correct our government's dirrection.. but a third world war will.
This thing is going to go nuclear and when it does those of us who survive will have a chance to reform into a nation with a small government.
A nation where the key ideals that define a liberal and a so-called conservative are embraced."

quote:
Originally posted by T e x:
quote:
Originally posted by Relentless Despot.:
Ahhh.. yet another idealist.. this one does seem bright however.

ya...refreshing

gordon?

you've posted and reposted... over and over...

perhaps nobody values your rant?

--------------------
Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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Gordon Bennett
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Sorry, I just find it shriekingly funny and enjoy sharing it. Gleeful about WWIII, can you imagine? It's so Hitlerian!

quote:
Originally posted by Leo:
Posting that PM over and over is getting as tiring as Monkey reposting BS analyst reports over and over on the GZFX thread. lol



--------------------
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a
little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

- Benjamin Franklin

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bdgee
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Griffon,

I don't have any difficulty understanding, in spite of your over generous use of adjatives and adverbs.

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Griffon
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My point is very plain: self-determination of who they are as an ethnic group within the larger system of ethnicities, the building up of infrastructure, education systems, culture centers and hospitals.

Through developing market forces, colonialism and Cold War, we destroyed indigenous cultural identities. The re-claimation of those identities is necessary to end the violence that poisons so many cultures. It is not an immediate solution, but it is a forward-looking process driven answer to the present situation.

--------------------
God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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Johnwayne
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Tex-
DVFN- was that one of RCA Analysts stocks?
Might have been just a wee bit off on assessment of him.
God what a mess that stock was. And I was so sure that puppy was gonna shoot to the moon. I really drank the cool aide on that one.

Actually my brother does not play the market Tex.
Thanks for the warning you tried to give me.
Fortunately many of the great people here took me under their wing and wised me up a little.
Yes for those that can't believe it, I used to be even dumber.

--------------------
Thanks Matto. Thanks Juice.

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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by Griffon:
Wow, I find it sad the education system let you all down. And Glassman, are you suggesting we perpetuate a myth that oppresses and negates four people groups? What I am suggesting is that the four ethnic groups may in the end discover they are better trade partners with their own identity intact.

Bdgee, I fail to see what is difficult to understand: development of market systems, colonialism and Cold War are well-known historical events, much like the genocide President Clintoin accepted in Rwanda, another contrived state.

no, i am all for getting the truth out...

but? you are gonna have to accept that the consolidation of power always draws a lot of people
..
bad people...(not all but mostly)

they are everywhere, and you need to be like Caine (the kung fu grasshopper ) studying at master Po's Dojo so you can whoop their buts when they try to step on you...and if you have anything worth having? they wil....

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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bdgee
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The violence that poisons most cultures it built on religious teaching.

Sorry if you choose to think otherwise, but it is a fact.

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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
The violence that poisons most cultures it built on religious teaching.

Sorry if you choose to think otherwise, but it is a fact.

comeon bdgee...

it's really the love of money that poisons, religion is just the opiate of the masses...

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Leo
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religion loves money, and vicey versee
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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by Griffon:
My point is very plain: self-determination of who they are as an ethnic group within the larger system of ethnicities, the building up of infrastructure, education systems, culture centers and hospitals.

Through developing market forces, colonialism and Cold War, we destroyed indigenous cultural identities. The re-claimation of those identities is necessary to end the violence that poisons so many cultures. It is not an immediate solution, but it is a forward-looking process driven answer to the present situation.

we have no culture to build upon, so why should they? there... nah.. [Razz]

our culture here is about? what? 5 years old? and getting younger every day?

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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T e x
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnwayne:
Tex-
DVFN- was that one of RCA Analysts stocks?
Might have been just a wee bit off on assessment of him.
God what a mess that stock was. And I was so sure that puppy was gonna shoot to the moon. I really drank the cool aide on that one.

Actually my brother does not play the market Tex.
Thanks for the warning you tried to give me.
Fortunately many of the great people here took me under their wing and wised me up a little.
Yes for those that can't believe it, I used to be even dumber.

lol, not when RCA tries the "gap n trap" -- sorry, JW... nothing to do with your bro--as far as I know--but that's a sorry-azz play to make, here...

we just simply don't do the gap n trap...

period.

Any questions?

--------------------
Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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Johnwayne
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Not following you Tex.

--------------------
Thanks Matto. Thanks Juice.

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Griffon
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Thank you Glassman for the welcome.

I throw ideas out to generate discussion. Actually I finished seminary last year so the doctorate is a way off, but my thesis involves "peace-building through shared story in life." I am convinced of projects like Mar Elias Educational Institute where people come together to share stories from diverse ethnicities and theologies as they live life together. To me, this is the future of peace-building: shared experience from diverse backgrounds. Do you see then how I would advocate for people groups finding their own cultural identity amidst and alongside the many other cultures they could be exposed to?

And do you know what is at the heart of this approach's effectiveness? You learn to see the humanity in others in part because your own identity is not in question. Let me offer an excerpt from my major MDiv project:

"Thursday, 4 p.m. February 17
Today has been hugely exciting. I did not make much progress on windows, only 6 or so, because I was invited to speak to a 7th grade technology class. The teacher wanted me to use English so they could practice conversational English. “Jerry” asked me to speak to them about what it means to be a “good person.” The day actually began with me trying to get pictures for Rev. Don Griggs and the Pilgrims of Ibillin. He wanted pictures of the elementary school. The Head Mistress gave me a tour and invited me to lunch with the faculty. That was where Jerry the technology teacher invited me to his class. I did not expect to be there for the whole class, but it was a great time.

They asked profound questions. “If you want to help Palestinians, why come to MEEI instead of going to the West Bank?” “You talk about prayer and love being answers to the Palestinian situation, but we pray and children still die. Prayer isn’t enough then is it? How can we love when it doesn’t work?” You know the best thing about the conversation with the class was that the girl who asked about prayer came up after to say she was glad I came to Mar Elias and asked God to bless me.

It is interesting addressing a room full of 13 year olds with 4 faiths represented: Islam, Druze, Christian and Judaism. I tried to be sensitive to these diverse worldviews especially pertaining to God language. The teacher later told me that everyone has a religion in the class and they are very tolerant of references to God. Think about what this says about MEEI though, that the students feel safe enough to talk about Palestinians elsewhere."

Do you see how my own naivete was beginning to be shed simply by coming into contact with these kids? It's when we are brave enough to let people search for their own identity, to "find" themselves, they can become comfortable with "other."

That is the lesson dictators and colonial powers learned very quickly and that is precisely why they destroy cultural identity and play ethnicities off against one another: to perpetuate their own power by inducing impotence among conflicted ethnicities.

--------------------
God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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glassman
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griffon...
i'd like to recomend three books to you..

read this first...
Guns Germs and Steel
by Jared M. Diamond

it's been around a while now, but the guy has the ethnic division thing down pretty good...

then?
1491
by Charles C. Mann..
that will show you how nothing is really in our control even tho we think it is...

after that?


Big Cotton: How A Humble Fiber Created Fortunes, Wrecked Civilizations, and Put America on the Map
by Stephen Yafa

that will illustrate how the industrial revolution led us into the current world situation ...


after you read those? you should be able to breeze thru your dissertation, (just kidding) if you really want to write about what you've been telling me...

i admire your love for humanity... wish i STILL had all that i had in my earlier years...

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Gordon Bennett
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Jesus and Bush are apparently quite an item.

quote:
Originally posted by Leo:
religion loves money, and vicey versee



--------------------
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a
little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

- Benjamin Franklin

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Griffon
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"The violence that poisons most cultures it built on religious teaching.

Sorry if you choose to think otherwise, but it is a fact."

It's a wrong-thinking fact but accept it if you will. See, the truth is the violence that poisons most cultures flows from atheism manipulating religion for its own end. Consider Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh, Mao Tse Tung, Hitler, Mussolini, Saddam Hussein (a masquerading Muslim but not a real one), the Rwandan leaders, the Sudanese leaders. There is no religion in what they do except secular humanism gone amok.

Now, I am not intolerant or ignorant, so I do not suggest the religions of atheism and secular humanism are to blame the way others pretend to assume about the peaceful religions of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism and hinduism. I support the free expression of religions like atheism and secular humanism as well as the other traditional religions. But I cannot accept your assumption that people aren't guilty because religion made them do violence. It is people manipulated by evil people using horrific weapons that commit violence. To believe otherwise is religio-phobia.

Were you aware that more people have died in the last century at the hands of their own governments than in all the wars.

--------------------
God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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glassman
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It is interesting addressing a room full of 13 year olds with 4 faiths represented: Islam, Druze, Christian and Judaism. I tried to be sensitive to these diverse worldviews especially pertaining to God language.

this can help. but the cure is going to take generations, not a few years...

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Gordon Bennett
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Atheism is not a religion.

There was a thread a while back debating Hitler's Christianity. It seems he was, in fact, a Catholic.

--------------------
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a
little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

- Benjamin Franklin

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T e x
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnwayne:
Not following you Tex.

really? ok...take it up later...

--------------------
Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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T e x
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quote:
But I cannot accept your assumption that people aren't guilty because religion made them do violence.
missed that part...

--------------------
Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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Gordon Bennett
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That goes for Israel as well.

--------------------
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a
little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

- Benjamin Franklin

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T e x
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"you tried to give me"

note to self...

lol, JW/RCA

--------------------
Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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Johnwayne
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I remember now Tex.
Gap and trap was the deal where he said to set all of your buys for like .80 when the stock was at .15 causing it to gap to .80. Then he claimed it would screw the mm's somehow. I never figured out how that plan was feasible because my Scottrade will not allow me to set an order that far from the ask.
Yes I am sorry to have defended him but at the time I had made some good $$$ on that pick and was not really fully understanding how someone got trapped when a stock gapped that much. Nor do I really understand how it would have screwed the mm's.
I think I got in another pick of his after that then figured out most of his mad claims of 1000% gains were a little optimistic. But he really had me under his spell for a while.
I wondered why some of your responses to me seemed to have a little edge. Understandable now I guess.
I think if you go back and read some of my more recent stock posts you will find I'm pretty harmless, as opposed to being a little too easily lead in the stock arena like I was in my earlier posts.

--------------------
Thanks Matto. Thanks Juice.

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Griffon
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Glassman,
We all struggle to love as we are created to love. I have read the three books you suggest. In fact, one does play a role in my developing understanding of nation-state/colonialism. "Big Cotton" should be required reading at some level. I find part of the struggle to love as we should is the fear of truly getting away and renewing. The drive to succeed implants in us a view of relationship that is warped because it is based on competition, a microcosm of the nation-state if you will.

In that model, relationships are extrinsic to being. If relationships are not constitutive of being the old addage used after someone has done some terribly uncaring thing: "Nothing personal, it's just business." But to love is to allow relationships to be intrinsic, or constitutive of who we are, a part of our very being, as modeled within the Trinitarian relationship; how we treat others can never be just business because it is intimately personal.

See that view that it is okay to do things to each other in business that we would not do outside of business is at the heart of our difficulty to love fully and freely. Isn't it amazing and tragic that we are taught in our very competitive system to "kill or be killed?"

That very philosophy, not a Christian, Jewish or Muslim philosophy mind you, led to global domination and it's an utterly morally-bankrupt and relationally-stunted philosophy, literally a religion unto itself. And we must undo it, must have the courage to relearn, if the world is ever to survive.

--------------------
God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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glassman
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See that view that it is okay to do things to each other in business that we would not do outside of business is at the heart of our difficulty to love fully and freely. Isn't it amazing and tragic that we are taught in our very competitive system to "kill or be killed?"


OK? who created that kill or be killed system? look at the animal world..

Kids are naturally suspicious of things they don't "know"...
food is the perfect example...
anybody who has kids will tell you they don't like to try new foods...

there is a simple evolutionary 'splanation for that too... the ones that did try too many expirements died... there's a lot of poisonous plants/weeds in the world.. they need to be poisonous or they will be eaten.. and so on and so forth...

i argue that discrimination is in fact an evolved and instinctual trait... whether it's other people or food or insects? it's an instinctual survival tool that must be overcome by POSITIVE experince...
creating those positive experiences actually requires great wealth, like enough food for all for starters...

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Griffon
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"the cure is going to take generations, not a few years..."

sadly true and if you believe the Biblical view, we will need dramatic intervention, but the Bible also says we must never give up working for peace and love. The first step must be to work to get us beyond the "need" to kill, I actually refer to it as an insanity but my degree isn't in psychology so I can't officially say that.

"Atheism is not a religion.

There was a thread a while back debating Hitler's Christianity. It seems he was, in fact, a Catholic."

Since we both know atheism (a=non, theism=personal God belief) is a belief system it is most certainly a religion, just a non-personal God religion. Hitler, who killed Christians as well as Jews, was not a Christian. If he claimed Christianity, he did not practice, thus he was not Christian. If he was baptised, he rejected the means of grace and massacred millions, so he was not a Christian. Lip service and ritual practice do not make one Christian.

Lest that seem unfair, Saddam Hussein is not a Muslim either because his practice of the religion he professed was and remains patently false.

In the same sense that 80+% of this nation profess evangelical Christian faith. I say that is mistaken because this country would be radically different if that were actually the case. First, there would be no hunger, homelessness or poverty. I'll end with this from James, "Show me your faith without works and I will show my faith by what I do." Hitler demonstrated in every way he was not Christian. None of us demonstrate Christian holiness perfectly, but genuine Christians grow in love for God and neighbor. Again, Hitler never demonstrated that.

"That goes for Israel as well."

That'll preach brother! It applies to all nations and ethnic groups.

--------------------
God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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Griffon
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"there is a simple evolutionary 'splanation for that too..."

Sure! There is no contradiction between faith and evolution. Our fallen-ness allowed for the "instinct" to be corrupted to be sure. It was not God's intent.

"i argue that discrimination is in fact an evolved and instinctual trait... whether it's other people or food or insects? it's an instinctual survival tool that must be overcome by POSITIVE experince...
creating those positive experiences actually requires great wealth, like enough food for all for starters..."

Preachin' to the choir friend. But see, the world produces enough bio-mass to feed the world, our fallen-ness means we can have the capacity and the capability to feel the world, but we lack the moral will to share. Nietzsche argued from the humanist/atheist religion perspective for the "will-to-power." Christians on the journey recognize God's gracious gift is transformative "will-to-relationship."

I am saying you are right, left to our own devices, we are by nature, selfish, avaricious and a host of other obnoxious, non-relational things. We Christians don't get it all right by a long shot. But Christ makes us able to do something more than accept our greed.

--------------------
God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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Griffon
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Thank you all for the generous conversation. I have to turn in to prayers, study and bed because I have a 6am Bible study tomorrow morning. Be blessed and at peace! May it be that we get to know each other better in coming days!

--------------------
God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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Griffon
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I guess I'll leave you with one more glimpse of that trip to Israel since one of you commented on the country. I hope you enjoy it.

Friday night, February 18
Today has been busy, full, wonderful and sad. I started out a little grumpy, tired, and stomach-achy; suddenly everything changed. Sanding can be a very tedious job. Shoulders and neck ache and there was a definite chill in the air as I began the day. However, sometime before lunch the sanding turned into a devotional work. It became a deeply sacred moment. I started to get into it.
Ammar and I had a few nice, though sad, conversations. I hope it helps him to talk things through. The pain of being separated from family for long periods, the hurt of going home to 6 children upset at his absence with a two year old daughter calling him “uncle,” is intense. Police intimidation, in the form of threats to take him from this job and thus the means to support his family, have him greatly anguished. He talks about the shooting of children by Jewish police and military for target practice. Prayer for guidance, prayer for peace, may be our first step, but advocacy and action must follow.
In between our two conversations, Marie and I went to the Melkite Church of Shfar’am for the Prayer Service of the Theotokos. I understood virtually nothing but it was inspiring to hear the antiphonal singing for 90 minutes combined with the iconography and incense. I will inquire about pictures if the opportunity to visit the church comes up again. The crowd was big, over 300 in the sanctuary so people were outside in the courtyard as well. We had to set up chairs inside. The youth dress up very dramatically for each other and there is considerable commotion, but it is a majestic worship event!
Saturday, 6:30 a.m. February 19
I had a difficult night sleeping. My body still wants to cling to an internal clock. Ammar has an interesting way of determining who good leaders are. Do they eat while the Palestinian people go hungry? So he doesn’t think much of Bush, Rice, Powell, Arafat or Sharon because they do not give up something to come here and help the Palestinians. On the other hand, Ammar likes the American people because he sees their generosity and likes the volunteers that help build and maintain MEEI. He liked the one sentence President Bush said the other day, “Israel needs the Palestinians.” I was also thinking of what Bush said and that needs to become the reality we work for.
Ammar also asked me to return to visit him in Jenin in “month 7.” We have the same calendar but different names for the months so we count them off instead of using names. He wants me to come back when the black grapes are ripe. Of course that depends on Israel opening the city up again. Unfortunately, I will be settling into a new parish then so I will not be visiting again this year.

Saturday night, February 19
It seems rest finally caught up with me. After a thrilling trip to Akko, I went to bed for a few hours. The Pryors have arrived even as Father Matthew and Sister Christina left for Tiberias. They were only here for one night and I would have dearly loved to have more time to chat with them “en francaise.” They are charming Belgians building a spiritual community of Roman Catholic and Orthodox monks in the Romanian village of Adunatii Copaceni. They have invited me to visit sometime and Romania is in my heart as a place to serve God and humanity sometime.

Once free of the responsibility and distraction I surrender to so often, I am once again more attuned to spiritual life. I am also aware of my family as I visit Akko. Mom and dad are used to my spiritual “wanderlust” but this is the first time I will return home with souvenirs.
The incredible thing about this trip to Akko is who invited me along: Abuna Elias Chacour, Micah and I went. We talked about the Palestinians of America and the Indians of Israel. We spoke of integrated faith; personal experience must be coupled with social action. There can be no divorce between personal and corporate salvation. He asked about me and Iowa as well.

It was just an incredible moment in my life. I actually sat and talked with a three time Nobel Peace Prize nominee who is also the recipient of the Niwano and World Methodist Peace Awards. What struck me so profoundly is Abuna’s deep spirituality in a strong and gentle spirit. It’s incredible the demands of time he has and yet he still finds time for a two week volunteer who is hoping to get windows sanded in time for the church dedication on April 2. On returning to Ibillin he offers me citrus fruit from his garden.
I have never seen streets so packed with people and vehicles as in Akko. The wall in so many pictures is the seawall built in the 1700s.

I asked Abuna if Lebanon still has a reputation for cedars and he says it has mostly sycamores now. Micah and I talk of a mutual love of water and the ocean/sea. He used to dive for oysters on this very corner of the Mediterranean. On the return from Akko, Abuna points to the traditional meeting place of Naaman and Elijah in the hill country outside Shfar’am.
I rested on the return from Akko and later met the Pryors, Bob and Marylou. It has been a truly delightful evening in conversation with everyone at the Guest House. Bob and Marylou were Presbyterian missionaries serving in Iran for 23 years before the revolution forced them to depart. We talked about the decline of tourism really hurting both the region and MEEI’ ministry. We talked about why the Palestinians struggle and why everyone has the impression that there is a bomb on every corner and a gun in every house here. The Galilee is safe for a pale American to walk around at night. Not that everyone has the warm-fuzzies, but everyone is committed to peaceful resolution and they know tourism is crucial to the economy. There is hope – but the school needs money to keep going.

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God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

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Johnwayne
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Tex-
Oh you think I am RCA?
I am definitely not. I'm not sure what you would base that assumption on. Did he used to post in off topics a lot?
Bob can look that type of stuff up can't he?
Look I mistakenly defended a guy who made me money a few times, bad choice on my part I guess and I learned the error of my ways. But I am a loyal person that way. He was the main poster on my first real runner.
Now I am much more apt to look to the likes of Juice who I feel is a very straight shooter. I think if you compare RCA's posts to mine you will see a huge difference. He was all chart talk and I'm still not convinced of there effectiveness.
Maybe you should ask for Juice's thoughts on this issue.

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Thanks Matto. Thanks Juice.

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Gordon Bennett
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Off-Topic Post, Non Stock Talk. [Big Grin]

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"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a
little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

- Benjamin Franklin

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The Bigfoot
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Seems to me this is neither a symptom of either Democratic nor Republic modes of thought. To me this is a symptom of a problem with no true solution.

First rule of being a leader. You are not going to be able to make everyone happy. If you spend all your time attempting to do so you will accomplish nothing.

Extend that thought to restoring peace in a nation. In this scenario you have a people killing each other over ideas. How do you come in and set an entirely new set of ideals into the mix and make everyone happy? Already pointed out above that this is impossible.

Therefore, by going into such a situation you must be aware that you are committing yourself to forcing ideas that will be unpopular to some into an area that has already proven itself to have a deadly violent reaction to conflicting modes of thinking.

The only true way to be successful in such an endeavor that I can see is to do this:

1) Send in an overwhelming military force with the goals of A) Securing and controlling the entire border of a country. Only allow pre-approved emergency aid through the borders to ensure outside influences do not disturb the process. B) Quickly go across the country and completely disarm the nation of all materials that could be used to create weapons of any kind. Set up strong policing bases within every population center.

2) Take over all media sources and use these to foster the ideals of tolerance and community. Monitor all religious/political/ and large gathering areas. Immediately shut down any and all resistance to these ideas and discredit the leaders who espouse other ideals.

3) Send in top intelligence and government building experts to force a democratic election process without media to create city governments around population centers. Provide coaching as to how to create a governmental system that is sustainable and uncorrupted. This means all new leaders will need a personal coach. Provide all previous leaders with military escorts to ensure their safety and compliance.

Then next year force another election of the populous for city governments to ensure majority confidence in the elected leaders. The next year have the city representatives vote from within their body to create regional governments and hold a special election to fill vacant spots on the city level. Allow time for the process to work out the kinks. 3 years later repeat this process to create a country wide governmental body. At this point start allowing free press and media to resume within the country.

4) While the military controls the nation and the government is being reformed the country needs to be restored and updated. This cannot be done by outside companies without creating an inevitable conflict of interest due to the conflict ideas of for profit business and a humanitarian mission of restoring peace. Approved NGO's will be allowed to enter the country and use the countries own existing wealth and resources to train the country's populous how to work within the environmental, fiscal, and cultural limitations of their country to provide 1st world services to their people. Once the country government has been installed for three years and has shown itself resilient to the forces of corruption the NGO's can step back and allow the government to oversee as is fit depending on their constitution.

The whole of the process described above is horribly simplistic to the true nature of the task involved to actually create peace. The whole of what is described above would take by that timeline 9 years to accomplish. Afterward the process of stepping the peacekeeping force down and reintroducing the country to the world would take at least another five.

To be fair to the country in question you could only use their economy to support their governmental processes and the economy building processes handled by the NGO's. All other military and non military actions must be paid for by the Humanitarian country(s) providing the reconditioning process.


This to my mind is they only way you will truly ever be able to stop conflicts as a third party. This is tyrannical nation building in the extreme. This would cost billions on billions for any country involved and anything less would only be a band aid on a severed limb.

I would never support my government attempting this action.

I support going into a country to stop the worst of the atrocities from being committed and providing a safe zone for those who have no part in the conflict to escape to. I support defending our allies and fighting those who have taken actions to destroy our democracy or the democracy of our allies.

But I do not for one minute fail to understand that these actions are nothing more than a stop gap that will not ultimately solve the conflict of differing ideologies and very likely violence will erupt again in the future

Sasquatch

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No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues.

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Griffon
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"1) Send in an overwhelming military force with the goals of A) Securing and controlling the entire border of a country. Only allow pre-approved emergency aid through the borders to ensure outside influences do not disturb the process. B) Quickly go across the country and completely disarm the nation of all materials that could be used to create weapons of any kind. Set up strong policing bases within every population center.

2) Take over all media sources and use these to foster the ideals of tolerance and community. Monitor all religious/political/ and large gathering areas. Immediately shut down any and all resistance to these ideas and discredit the leaders who espouse other ideals.

3) Send in top intelligence and government building experts to force a democratic election process without media to create city governments around population centers. Provide coaching as to how to create a governmental system that is sustainable and uncorrupted. This means all new leaders will need a personal coach. Provide all previous leaders with military escorts to ensure their safety and compliance."

You are correct in suggesting your above quoted solution is a short term fix. History is replete with examples of this failed doctrine. It does raise a question I will pose in a new thread though: Is war ever good?

Your solution will not bring lasting peace because this approach has always given way to freedom fighters and terrorists. To quote a fictional story that gets to the heart of the dilema your solution causes:

The ambassador of Narn on finding his world smashed into dust and subjugated for dubious reasons says, "Though it take a thousand years, We...WILL...BE...FREE! It strikes at the heart of why the policy you suggest has always failed: a people group's identity is a stronger binding force than we like to accept. Someone on here chided me saying other countries don't have patriotism, nothing could be further from the truth. Look at France and Russia (two nations with leaders whose electoral campaigns are accused of having benefitted from oil-for-food money). They appealed to national dignity to justify their decision not to cut the financial umbellical cord from Saddam.

The only way to undercut that, the only way to save money and lives, if that is the order of priority you suggest, is to help indigenous peoples find out who they are and then empower them to live out that identity as they see fit within the bounds of the world community. It is demonstrated in our own nation to be successful and it has been successfully demonstrated in Western Africa.

--------------------
God's peace be with you
A salaam a lakum
Shalom Chevarim

Posts: 896 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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