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Author Topic: Romney Book: ‘Nonworking Parents’ Produce ‘Indolent And Unproductive’ Children
raybond
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Special Topic

Romney Book: ‘Nonworking Parents’ Produce ‘Indolent And Unproductive’ Children

By Alex Seitz-Wald posted from ThinkProgress Special Topic on Apr 16, 2012 at 3:10 pm


As the presidential campaign has become embroiled in “mommy wars,” a passage from Mitt Romney’s autobiography sheds more light on what seems to be his bifurcated prescription for mothers.

For most women, Romney maintains that a choice to work or to stay at home with the kids should be regarded as equally valid, his campaign made clear last week. But for poor women who receive government assistance, staying home is not an option — they should work. Video recovered yesterday shows that Romney said in January that he wants to “increase the work requirement” for mothers who receive welfare. “Those parents [need] to go back to work,” he explained.

A passage from Romney’s book, No Apology: The Case For American Greatness, elaborates on this. In it, he argues that children of “nonworking parents” will be conditioned to have “an indolent and unproductive life:”


In some quarters, however, the American work ethic is waning. Some people devote themselves to find ways not to work. Some seem to take a perverse kind of pride in being slipshod or lackadaisical. In many cases, where our work culture has deteriorated, shortsighted government policies share a good part of the blame.

Welfare without work erodes the spirit and the sense of self-worth of the recipient. And it conditions the children of nonworking parents to an indolent and unproductive life. Hardworking parents raise hardworking kids; we should recognize that the opposite is also true. The influence of the work habits of our parents and other adults around us as we grow up has lasting impact.

While Romney’s sentiment is understandable and common among conservatives, it doesn’t fit easily with his view that all “all moms are working moms.” He’s quoted in Michael Kranish and Scott Helman’s book The Real Romney as saying motherhood is its own profession. “It’s one which is challenging, it’s demanding,” he said. “It requires being a psychologist, a psychoanalyst, an engineer, a teacher,” he added.

If nonworking mothers on welfare produce “indolent and unproductive” children, then why doesn’t the same hold true for other women?

No one is questioning the difficulty or value of motherhood, but many critics have pointed out that while Romney’s wife was able to devote herself full time to the work of the house, other women must juggle both home life and a job to supplement their partners’ incoming. Meanwhile, millions of other mothers — including a disproportionate number on welfare — have to do all of this on their own, without a partner.

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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SeekingFreedom
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quote:
If nonworking mothers on welfare produce “indolent and unproductive” children, then why doesn’t the same hold true for other women?
I can't believe I'm actually hoping you're just spouting the party line, Ray....(sigh)

That question is ridiculous no matter how you spin it. If a single mother is raising her children and gettin welfare (a whole other discussion), she has two examples she can give her kids...do as much as you can to provide for yourself or live as a leach on society. That example is what they learn from as to how they fit into society...as people trying to be responsible for their choices or as victims that are 'better' than work.

That is the difference, Ray. A woman that CAN stay home because the Father figure (hopefully that actual father) is providing the work example is completely different than one who chooses to stay home because they choose to live off of the system.

Example is everything to a child.

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/weepforthenation

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raybond
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We have a president now that was raised by a welfare mother.
I don't think you make any sense.The only leaches on society are most of the major corporations and the wealthy.

Your telling me a lady that has the wealth to stay at home or work no matter what her decission is she is a women of honor. A poor woman who has to stay at home and welfare is the only the option, is a pos. You are sick seeking. And that is why you guys are going to be.
gone,the poles show it.

What you should do is serve your country and find out what it means to be an American the military would be a real good option for you. If not become a page and see what goes on.

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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CashCowMoo
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quote:
Originally posted by raybond:
We have a president now that was raised by a welfare mother.
I don't think you make any sense.The only leaches on society are most of the major corporations and the wealthy.

Your telling me a lady that has the wealth to stay at home or work no matter what her decission is she is a women of honor. A poor woman who has to stay at home and welfare is the only the option, is a pos. You are sick seeking. And that is why you guys are going to be.
gone,the poles show it.

What you should do is serve your country and find out what it means to be an American the military would be a real good option for you. If not become a page and see what goes on.

Welfare in indonesia must have been really good to go to elite schools:

t came to my interest when I found out that Barry, his childhood nickname, also attended a local school twice in an elite Jakarta region: SD Assisi and SD Besuki Menteng (SD or ‘Sekolah Dasar’ in Indonesian means elementary school). Even though rumors said that these two schools are a ‘base-camp’ for future Islamic fundamentalists, but in fact SD Assisi is a private Catholic while SD Besuki Menteng is a locally superior public school which accepts students from various religious backgrounds.

http://dinamars.hubpages.com/hub/barrack-obama-indonesia


Soetoro managed to secure a job with Mobil Oil Co, as an executive in their government relations office. The family moved to a new house near Central Jakarta, and Obama continued his education in the nearby government-run Menteng State Elementary School for the next year and a half. Dunham also found a new job as the Director of the Indonesian Institute of Management, Education and Development.


A ten-year old Obama returned to Hawaii in the summer of 1971 into the eagerly awaiting embrace of his grandparents, Stanley and Madelyn. They enrolled him into the Punahou School, one of the top private schools in Hawaii, where he will stay until graduation eight years later. His schoolmates at the time included AOL founder Steve Case and Hollywood actress, Kelly Preston.


____________________________________________

So ray, you trying to make it seem like Obama grew up in the ghetto and a welfare mom just dont cut it. I know you dont want to hear it, but I believe 100% of Americans should pay taxes, and ALL loopholes should be closed.

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SeekingFreedom
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Do you have children, Ray?

I'm not trying to pick a fight on this. I really want to know if you understand my point. Children don't care what they are told, only what they are shown. A parent can tell a child all they want not to start smoking, but if the parent smokes they are 2 to 4 times more likely to smoke themselves. They SEE the example and follow it.

If a parent teaches their children that living off of the system is "ok", then guess what the children learn? That working is 'hard', having kids they can't support to get welfare is 'easy'.

What is it that they say about men and rivers, Ray? They both follow the path of least resistance...

quote:
Your telling me a lady that has the wealth to stay at home or work no matter what her decission is she is a women of honor.
I never said anything of the sort, Ray, and I think you know that. Please do limit your criticism to things I've actually said and I'll extend you the same courtesy.

There are plenty of 'rich' women who spend much of their time away from home while the nanny raises the kids. What do the children learn? That money\career\cause is more important to the parents than family. That's not exactly what I would called honorable.

Ann Romney, and I assume with Mitt's agreement, chose to devote her time to trying to raise her children properly regardless of 'missed opportunities' in the workforce.

When that's an option, I still hold it's the better choice. When it's not, then I personally believe that the parent(s) have a duty to teach their kids by their example that one should do all within one's power to care for one's self before you go with your hand out to Uncle Sam.

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/weepforthenation

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jordanreed
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The romneys struggle to survive......

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/16/1083802/-Ann-Romney-s-tale-of-strugglin g-We-learned-hard-lessons-living-off-our-stock-portfolio-

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jordan

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glassman
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Ann Romney, and I assume with Mitt's agreement, chose to devote her time to trying to raise her children properly regardless of 'missed opportunities' in the workforce.

i have a unique perspective on this issue. my wife and i tried to use childcare and it was not working out very well. so i CHOSE to be self -employed at home moslty cuz my wife is one of the most efficiently organised people wyou'll ever meet, while i have made the poitn to you guys over and over agian that i can't even type and am scatterbrained... and Pagan, my wife got her PHD after our kids were all born and yes, i put her thru both grad programs.

nonetheless, my family eats home cooked bettter than the restaurtants in these here parts can provide... sadly that ian't saying much ocnsidering where we live, but i do alright.

if i could have changed one hting? it would have been that my kids didn't get to play with the other kids so much cuz they were either in day-care, or they were with their mommies, and i couldn't very well take the kids hang out with them for "palydates' too much without everybody deciding i was fathering their new little brothers and sisters...

to be honest? i know alotof people with jobs (really godd jobs) who don't work as hard a mothers do.
furthtermore, i am now convinced that most jobs (and i use theterm JOB specifically as in working for someone elses profit, not as in your job is running company) are an escape from the real work of life. We in America are spoiled rotten, and most times, rising thru th efoodchain at work does not involve doing ANY MORE work, in fact it gets easier IMO because delegation of responsibility and authority are the key to success. Sure the hours get longer, but so does the ability to work form the golf course and other places...


i think every kid in HS should be forced to dig with a shovel and hoe enough ground to plant a subsistence garden for themselves and one other adult and one infant child. They shoul dhave to buthcer a chicken and a rabbit from live to ready for the table they would get a better perspective on why the should work so hard at work, whatever work they choose...

there is no work WORTH doing that is not WORTH a LIVING WAGE, period. call me socialist for that if you like, i'm still not wrong.

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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glassman
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living wages include health care. and i mean every job worht doing, from changing diapers to filling bags full of fries and burgers or stock shelves at wally world and yes, even emptying garbage cans...

people (in general) are confused about priorities that much is clear

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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SeekingFreedom
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The question is, and has always been, Glass, WHAT constitutes a 'living wage'? What lifestyle (and for how many people) should a minimum wage job cover?

I would submit that minimum wage is meant to sustain only ONE person at a minimal lifestyle, not a family at 'middle class' levels.

Call me a heartless b@astard for that if you like, I'm still not wrong.

[Razz]

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/weepforthenation

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IWISHIHAD
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Originally Posted By SeekingFreedom:

I'm not trying to pick a fight on this. I really want to know if you understand my point. Children don't care what they are told, only what they are shown. A parent can tell a child all they want not to start smoking, but if the parent smokes they are 2 to 4 times more likely to smoke themselves. They SEE the example and follow it.

If a parent teaches their children that living off of the system is "ok", then guess what the children learn? That working is 'hard', having kids they can't support to get welfare is 'easy'.

What is it that they say about men and rivers, Ray? They both follow the path of least resistance...

_________________________________________________

You make it sound like it's an easy cycle to break.

All you got to do is want to make more money walk out the door and the job of your dreams is waiting.

I am sure most of these kids and parents would rather be on welfare etc. than living in a nice house and having nice things not having to worry about money.

There are so many reasons why it is hard to break that cycle, one of which where you land when you have little money.

The idea that kids don't care what they are told seems to be giving parents and kids little credit for their families.

Do you have kids?

Do they not care what you tell them? Ouch!

-

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SeekingFreedom
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IWish, I'll ask you the same question before I answer yours...

Do you have kids?

Yes, I have two small children and I hope that what I tell them has an impact. However, while I'm still learning, (hopefully that never stops) I have learned that words mean less than actions.My children are little mirrors of my wife and I. Our habits, opinions, values, and yes, flaws, are reflected in their lives because we are their models of what is 'right' in life. If my WORDS are not in harmony with my ACTIONS, it is my actions that my kids will pick up on...along with the belief that they don't need to be in harmony (which is sadly becoming more common in our society).

I do have to call you out on one point, IWish, as I did with Ray...please stick to what I've said...not what you think I implied.

quote:
You make it sound like it's an easy cycle to break.

All you got to do is want to make more money walk out the door and the job of your dreams is waiting.

I never said it was easy...that's the whole point of what I said. It IS hard...which is why so many people don't break the cycle and remain in poverty generation after generation. The 'easy' path is to passively accept one's current circumstances as unchangeable, that one is powerless to better one's fate. That is the easy path, IWish.

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/weepforthenation

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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
The question is, and has always been, Glass, WHAT constitutes a 'living wage'? What lifestyle (and for how many people) should a minimum wage job cover?

I would submit that minimum wage is meant to sustain only ONE person at a minimal lifestyle, not a family at 'middle class' levels.

Call me a heartless b@astard for that if you like, I'm still not wrong.

[Razz]

yeah, buit going to the doctor is not sutainable at teh jobs i mentioned. either out of pocket of thru co. insurance,

and?

you cannot tell women they are just outaluck if they get pregnant. this is where the "rightwingers" is hypocritical as it gets. A child born to a teen mother is still "pure and innocent" and has the right to be protected by society until it reaches it's majority. what parents it has are not it's fault, nor is it to blame for their actions. Lazy parents? they are gong to be lazy at work or at home, it don't matter wher they are.

fact? it's cheaper to give them a minimal subsistence that to subjecxt ehir lack of workk ethic on those of actually trying to get somethng done in this world.. i been around block enought o see this proven many times over in both private biz and govt institutions.

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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glassman
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as to "breaking the cycle"?

i can show you plenty of historical examples of failed attempts to break these cycles. And i can show you some successful ones too...

the methods of "anglisizing" the "native American Indians" were considerd to be barbaric. The successful ones all included murdering all kids and particularly all males over 8 years old... That was done as a matter of course in ancient times. And it w still being done in the SE asia when we were there by other groups... Mao did it. The Soviets did it..


The welfare system we have today was designed to proect the wealthy as much as as the poor. The welthy cannot fleece the flock if the flock has no wool [Wink]

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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IWISHIHAD
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Originally Posted By SeekingFreedom:

IWish, I'll ask you the same question before I answer yours...

Do you have kids?

Yes, I have two small children and I hope that what I tell them has an impact. However, while I'm still learning, (hopefully that never stops) I have learned that words mean less than actions.My children are little mirrors of my wife and I. Our habits, opinions, values, and yes, flaws, are reflected in their lives because we are their models of what is 'right' in life. If my WORDS are not in harmony with my ACTIONS, it is my actions that my kids will pick up on...along with the belief that they don't need to be in harmony (which is sadly becoming more common in our society).

I do have to call you out on one point, IWish, as I did with Ray...please stick to what I've said...not what you think I implied.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You make it sound like it's an easy cycle to break.

All you got to do is want to make more money walk out the door and the job of your dreams is waiting.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I never said it was easy...that's the whole point of what I said. It IS hard...which is why so many people don't break the cycle and remain in poverty generation after generation. The 'easy' path is to passively accept one's current circumstances as unchangeable, that one is powerless to better one's fate. That is the easy path, IWish.

--------------------

I stuck to exactly what you said:
"Children don't care what they are told"

Your making the assumption that what you see in your small kids is what they will follow when they are older'

That should make it easy for you just do the right thing and your kids will follow exactly what you do... good luck on that idea

Again i will state you make it sound like it is an easy thing to break out of, where in fact we see more and more people in this situation because of the economy and lack of jobs.

This situation (lack of money) has been presented to many new people that had parents that were never in this situaion and had nothing to do with a so called role model.

=

-
-

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Pagan
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quote:
Originally posted by IWISHIHAD:
Originally Posted By SeekingFreedom:

IWish, I'll ask you the same question before I answer yours...

Do you have kids?

Yes, I have two small children and I hope that what I tell them has an impact. However, while I'm still learning, (hopefully that never stops) I have learned that words mean less than actions.My children are little mirrors of my wife and I. Our habits, opinions, values, and yes, flaws, are reflected in their lives because we are their models of what is 'right' in life. If my WORDS are not in harmony with my ACTIONS, it is my actions that my kids will pick up on...along with the belief that they don't need to be in harmony (which is sadly becoming more common in our society).

I do have to call you out on one point, IWish, as I did with Ray...please stick to what I've said...not what you think I implied.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You make it sound like it's an easy cycle to break.

All you got to do is want to make more money walk out the door and the job of your dreams is waiting.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I never said it was easy...that's the whole point of what I said. It IS hard...which is why so many people don't break the cycle and remain in poverty generation after generation. The 'easy' path is to passively accept one's current circumstances as unchangeable, that one is powerless to better one's fate. That is the easy path, IWish.

--------------------

I stuck to exactly what you said:
"Children don't care what they are told"

Your making the assumption that what you see in your small kids is what they will follow when they are older'

That should make it easy for you just do the right thing and your kids will follow exactly what you do... good luck on that idea

Again i will state you make it sound like it is an easy thing to break out of, where in fact we see more and more people in this situation because of the economy and lack of jobs.

This situation (lack of money) has been presented to many new people that had parents that were never in this situaion and had nothing to do with a so called role model.

=

-
-

It is very obvious he has no children. Otherwise he would not make those blanket statements about children.

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It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

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raybond
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Do you have children, Ray


-------------------------------------------------

I sure do have childern I have a son who is a major in the airforce and getting ready to retire.

Now one of his friends was the product of a welfare mom all of her children are doing well also. You know why the children are doing well because the goverment stepped in and kept a roof over her head and food on the table.

The only people that did not like that idea were selfish weaklings full of envy. Keep your smart remarks to yourself.

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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CashCowMoo
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Speaking of wages, Subway in San Fran cant even offer their $5 footlong deal like they do everywhere else because of the cost of business in San Fran (their own minimum wage that is set). MSNBC actually covered that story.


Dont forget that is the city that was screwing with Mcdonalds because they put toys in happy meals. The "progressives" were shot down by a judge who thankfully used common sense in the ruling.

"McDonald's was accused of unfairly using toys to lure children into its restaurants. The proposed class-action lawsuit in a California state court so ught to stop the company from using free toys to promote its Happy Meals in the Golden State."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/05/happy-meal-lawsuit-dismissed_n_1406755. html

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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IWISHIHAD
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It must be awfull to feel like you can never get out of the situation (little money) you are in, let alone feeling your kids have a slim chance of getting out of it.

If you try to work the pay is small in most cases where there is less education than a college degree and at the same time having to pay someone to watch your kids, which eats up most of the wage you get.

The job market sucks in most cases today with many sucking employers.

Now the trend seems to be that if you don't have a job they won't even give you a chance.

My son has been interviewing, looking for a better job although he has a good employer, which is unusual these days.

After his last interviews with one company he was offered the job, even though the interviews were strange and the guy was a jerk.

I told him to forget the job if that was the impression he was getting.

So after my suggestion he turned them down, but they kept bugging him and conviced him the company was great.

He finally accepted the offer and told them he would give notice on Wednesday to the company that he worked with.

On Thursday the new employer called and wanted to have a meeting the next day with him,this was not planned, so he pushed the woman that was calling him enough to find out what this was about.

She told him that the salary they had told him was not the salary they pay their salesman,It was a third less.

So actually he would be making quite a bit less than his present job.

Fortuantly for him he did not give notice on that Wednesday he decided to wait till Friday.

He told them to jump.

This is happening more and more and all kinds of different versions of this.

-

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SeekingFreedom
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quote:
you cannot tell women they are just outaluck if they get pregnant. this is where the "rightwingers" is hypocritical as it gets. A child born to a teen mother is still "pure and innocent" and has the right to be protected by society until it reaches it's majority. what parents it has are not it's fault, nor is it to blame for their actions. Lazy parents? they are gong to be lazy at work or at home, it don't matter wher they are.
I see your point, Glass, I do. However, I would ask how much good we are doing for those children by incentivizing a parental lifestyle (rolemodel) that encourages sloth and irresponsibility? Understand, I'm not encouraging the state taking the children away from their parents (unless it's a really bad situation), but supporting generation after generation of the population on the backs of fewer and fewer producers is not sustainable.

I don't claim to have the answer, but I sure as hell know that our current system can't last as it is.

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/weepforthenation

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SeekingFreedom
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(sigh)

Have you ever had the feeling that the person you're talking to isn't talking about the same thing you are?


Ray, do you really think that parental example has no bearing the development of their children?


IWish,

quote:
This situation (lack of money) has been presented to many new people that had parents that were never in this situaion and had nothing to do with a so called role model.
No arguement on that point. However, I would pose that how they handle the new situation is directly linked to the examples they got from how their parents dealt with stressful situations.

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/weepforthenation

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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
quote:
you cannot tell women they are just outaluck if they get pregnant. this is where the "rightwingers" is hypocritical as it gets. A child born to a teen mother is still "pure and innocent" and has the right to be protected by society until it reaches it's majority. what parents it has are not it's fault, nor is it to blame for their actions. Lazy parents? they are gong to be lazy at work or at home, it don't matter wher they are.
I see your point, Glass, I do. However, I would ask how much good we are doing for those children by incentivizing a parental lifestyle (rolemodel) that encourages sloth and irresponsibility? Understand, I'm not encouraging the state taking the children away from their parents (unless it's a really bad situation), but supporting generation after generation of the population on the backs of fewer and fewer producers is not sustainable.

I don't claim to have the answer, but I sure as hell know that our current system can't last as it is.

SF, i understand you want the best for people, i really do..

i thihnk we see alot fo the same problems int he world and we have differnt way of dealing with them.

here's the problem,

"we" have NOT been doing this:"encourages sloth and irresponsibility".

dude, i used to show up at these peoples trailers adn take their cars. cars that didn't run anymore, that they paid too much for, and had 25% interest rates on.

get what i am telling you? go to a grocery store on the poor side of town and actually look at eh prices...

you live in Utah right? in some ways it IS a form of utopia. been there, liked alot about it, but i also have my own ideas about how to enjoy life, and that ain't there... SoCali, too much hedonism.. i'm somehwere in between..

in any case, you should know by now that the economic system we enjoy is not set up to reward hard work like everybody says. hard work is scrubbing toilets, not shuffling papers and talking on the phone all day. think about it.

 -

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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raybond
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Ray, do you really think that parental example has no bearing the development of their children?
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When you get done using your statements as camo for your right wing agenda maybe we can talk.
Children need support wether they have both parents or not and it is better to have a mom stay at home with her children. If the father is gone he is gone,taking away the mother and childrens support is the not right thing to do.

Now go join the army and be an american.

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SeekingFreedom
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(sigh)

Good to see some things haven't changed in two years, Ray.

Have a good day.

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/weepforthenation

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glassman
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here's a crappy situation. the irony of complainng about about lazy people getting rich should not be lost here.

suppose you got in with Madoff long ago. Rigt at the beginning when he MAY have been honest. You were fairly young too. One day you have a chance to buy your dream home, and even tho you know you shouldn't you cash out of Madoffs (unbeknownst to you) ponzi scheme. Now you have to pay back the ill-gotten gains you didn't even know you had and you never even had ill-intent. Furhtermore, you are upside-down on your house mortgage oso you cannot sellit to recoup the money, and you are now almost old enough to retire, but your retirement is being attached by the people "recovering" the Ponzi money.

This is happening to somebody right now.

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buckstalker
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quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
The question is, and has always been, Glass, WHAT constitutes a 'living wage'? What lifestyle (and for how many people) should a minimum wage job cover?

I would submit that minimum wage is meant to sustain only ONE person at a minimal lifestyle, not a family at 'middle class' levels.

Call me a heartless b@astard for that if you like, I'm still not wrong.

[Razz]

OK, this will be easy...

you are a heartless b@stard and YES...you are wrong...

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***********************

It's all in the timing...

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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by buckstalker:
quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
The question is, and has always been, Glass, WHAT constitutes a 'living wage'? What lifestyle (and for how many people) should a minimum wage job cover?

I would submit that minimum wage is meant to sustain only ONE person at a minimal lifestyle, not a family at 'middle class' levels.

Call me a heartless b@astard for that if you like, I'm still not wrong.

[Razz]

OK, this will be easy...

you are a heartless b@stard and YES...you are wrong...

he's not wrong if he is the Chinese Premiere [Big Grin]

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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SeekingFreedom
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LOL, then 'straighten' me out Buck.

What should a 'minimum' wage cover?

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/weepforthenation

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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
LOL, then 'straighten' me out Buck.

What should a 'minimum' wage cover?

you do understand that you basically are philosphically dictating who has the right to reproduce right?

face it, somebody has got to take out the trash, and they don't need a college degree to do it. the "right wingers" like Santorum and Palin have spent alot of time talking about raising kids the medical community wanted to "terminate" ..

100 yrs ago and before? it wasn't even an option. termination was done by the midwife. in your philosphy, a broom pusher, a tomato picker and toilet scrubber have no right to reproduce, yet you need all three of them to live and do your CEO job... makes no sense to me. and quite frankly it is why the right wing is psychotic.

talk to me about 2nd amnement rights? i'll be on th e"right" again, th erest of this sutff is stoopid.

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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raybond
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Seeking are you employed ? just wondering or do you just live in a make pretend world. I may be wrong have you ever done anything or do you just read stories about other people that get things done.

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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SeekingFreedom
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Ray, with all due respect...seek professional help.

Clergy, psychiatrist, yoga instructor, whatever.

You seem to have far too much anger in you (at your age [Wink] ) for it to be healthy.

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/weepforthenation

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Pagan
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quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
Ray, with all due respect...seek professional help.

Clergy, psychiatrist, yoga instructor, whatever.

You seem to have far too much anger in you (at your age [Wink] ) for it to be healthy.

What is Ray's age? Since you apparently know...otherwise...your last post is idiotic. Speak up or admit your FOS.

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It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

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SeekingFreedom
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LOL, Pagan, you may want to head my last advice too apparently.

Ray has posted that he is recently retired and moved to Cali (as of my last understanding). So I think I can give a pretty accurate range of 50-60. How much narrower would you like?

quote:
I sure do have childern I have a son who is a major in the airforce and getting ready to retire
How many years of service does it take to retire, Pagan? 20? 25? Unless Ray had his son when he was 14 I think my guess is probably pretty good.

Think before you post, P. You look less foolish when you do.

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/weepforthenation

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SeekingFreedom
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quote:
you do understand that you basically are philosphically dictating who has the right to reproduce right?


And that, Glass, is why this conversation can't move forward with any kind of 'good will'. Jumping from my question of "What should a 'minimum' wage cover?" (which noone has been kind enough to answer) to "in your philosphy, a broom pusher, a tomato picker and toilet scrubber have no right to reproduce," completely clouds the issue with emotional responses and eliminate the ability to rationally discuss the issue.

Unless someone feels up to answering my question of what lifestyle a 'no skill, no experience' job (which is what I feel warrants minimum wage) should be able to support, I think this thread is finished for me.

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/weepforthenation

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glassman
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[completely clouds the issue with emotional responses and eliminate the ability to rationally discuss the issue.

LOL, funny way to concede defeat but i'll accept it, better luck next time...

lemme know when you solve that problem of what to do with the bottom 30% of IQ's... Eugenics? infanticide? you can't have acces to birth control and you cannever have kids, cuz you aren't "college material"... that's where you ultra-right wingers are taking this.

Santorum? he has helath care provided bythe Tax payer for life so he can actually afford the "emotional drama" that i bring up..

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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SeekingFreedom
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Call it what you will, Glass.

Answer my question and I'll answer yours.

[Razz]

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/weepforthenation

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