posted
He did answer your question SF and so will I...
A "living" or minimum wage should provide an individual enough income to get married, have a couple of kids, provide a home, food, education, a means of transportation and health care for his/her family...plus enough left over to save for retirement...
Those are all the things you want for yourself are they not?
If yes, then answer these questions...
Why shouldn't an individual that doesn't have the ability either intellectually or financially to get a college degree, be afforded the same quality of life as you, if they are willing to work for it?
Why should they only be entitled to earn enough to take care of themselves and NOT have a family?
Do you view yourself as "superior" to those less fortunate/educated?
This is the main reason I am ashamed of the republican party...
They don't want people to collect welfare, and at the same time, they don't want to pay them chit if they are uneducated and willing to work...
I'll bet 10 to 1 that you are OK with people making millions of dollars a year playing basketball or baseball though, aren't you?
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: Call it what you will, Glass.
Answer my question and I'll answer yours.
i assume you mean this?
Unless someone feels up to answering my question of what lifestyle a 'no skill, no experience' job (which is what I feel warrants minimum wage) should be able to support, I think this thread is finished for me.
i already did. you ignored it. maybe i did it too fast.
health care is not a luxury item. lets go back to the cholera/dysentary issue. you don't want poor mountaineers barely keeping htier family fed crapping in your stream on ht emountains side before it rolls under the walls of your family compound on the lake front right?
it ain't complicated, Aristotl;e lecture Alexander about it. Good health is not "for sale". Aristotle literally told Al;eaxnder not let his troops chit inthe thier drinknig water, and that was and still is a part of Natiaonl Defense (even natioanl offense ) it's embodied by the phrase they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. you don't crap in my water, i won't crap in yours. half the health cares of the world were solved by this, and the EPA is hter to make sure we don't fall backwards.
when you get this worked out logically? i'll be happy to continue this discussion with you
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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posted
all those "sanitation workers" people look right past and don't give the time of day (or a living wage) are much more important to the overall population helath than the local pill peddler er i mean Doctor.
all those minimum wage workers at resraurants and walmarts across the country that don't "deserve" living wage? my wife would call them Vectors
Vector (biology)
Traditionally in medicine, a vector is an organism that does not cause disease itself but which spreads infection by conveying pathogens from one host to another.
Species of mosquito, for example, serve as vectors for the deadly disease Malaria.
am i coming thru 5X5 yet? it is in YOUR best interest to see natioanl health care of superior quality. Do NOT eat a fast food joints that have unheathy employees, or buy stuff for your kids to play with that were made in China with lead paint and then stcoked on the shelf by SICK people.. am i coming thru 5X5 yet?
employers could FORGET about th epaperwork and the sttress of trying to get it for thier employees, and the one who want to offer more? should be able to, Hillary propsed cirminalising that and that is Dictatorial.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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posted
interesting note, wikipedia is missing an article on the term "refractory" as it pertains to biological vectors. there should be an article dscribing that a parasitoid cycle or a disease transmision being stopped by human action such as vaccination would be considered a "refractory" act
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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posted
Thanks, Buck, that was exactly what I was looking for...not piece meal "this should be included" stuff (sorry, Glass, that's all your answer about the health care was)...but an actual list of what economic 'rights' a minimum wage job should provide.
Now, two follow up questions about your list:
1) So any high school drop out should recieve $50k (if that is what it takes to provide the items on your list) a year bagging groceries as a first job so that we are 'humane' to him\her?
and
2) What is to say that when we do raise everyone's wages to that level that supply\demand doesn't drive the prices of said items beyond it so that we're back to square one?
As to your basket ball\baseball players question? No, both sports suck and they shouldn't be paid anything...
Seriously, you'd win that bet easily. As a capitalist, I believe that people should be paid whatever the market will bear. If there is someone willing to pay them that much to do what they do (as long as it's legal), then by all means may they enjoy the fruits of their 'labors'.
posted
Glass, I really don't think you and I are on the same page here. When Obamacare was first passed, I stated that I wasn't opposed to providing health care for the poor. What I was opposed to is HOW the admin was going about providing it. I totally understand your points about vectors (covered in my Microbiology course, but thanks for the refresher) and the cost\benefit to having healthy service workers. I still believe that the only way to fix that problem is to attack the cost drivers and bring it within reach of the average\economically challenged members of our society. Paying a high cost for healthcare AND adding more people to the lines doesn't help us long term.
posted
but, we are discussing what a living wage is, and more importanlty what cosntitutes "lazy" behaviour..
in Mitt's world? lazy means not well off.
i gots news ferya, the poor are mostly all working poor.
the facts is that there will always be 30% of the loest IQ's no matter how high our average IQ's become, get my piint? ther will also always be tomatoes and apples to be picked, toilets to be scrubbed dn floors to be swept...
maybe someday? those jobs will doneby robots, then the lowest on totem will be repairmen of th erobots...
there is always a base to the pyramid in Captialism...
Civil War Era Gilded Age Download Audio/Video About Us/Contact Us Excerpt of Lincoln's Speech on Free Labor vs. Slave Labor
From: Lincoln, Abraham. "Annual Address Before the Wisconsin State Agricultural Society, at Milwaukee, Wisconsin, September 30, 1859." The Complete Works of Abraham Lincoln, vol. 5. Eds. John G. Nicolay and John Hay. New York: Francis D. Tandy Company, 1894.
The world is agreed that labor is the source from which human wants are mainly supplied. There is no dispute upon this point. From this point, however, men immediately diverge. Much disputation is maintained as to the best way of applying and controlling the labor element. By some it is assumed that labor is available only in connection with capital – that nobody labors, unless somebody else owning capital, somehow, by the use of it, induces him to do it. Having assumed this, they proceed to consider whether it is best that capital shall hire laborers, and thus induce them to work by their [p. 248] own consent, or buy them, and drive them to it, without their consent. Having proceeded so far, they naturally conclude that all laborers are naturally either hired laborers or slaves. They further assume that whoever is once a hired laborer, is fatally fixed in that condition for life; and thence again, that his condition is as bad as, or worse than, that of a slave. This is the "mud-sill" theory. But another class of reasoners hold the opinion that there is no such relation between capital and labor as assumed; that there is no such thing as a free man being fatally fixed for life in the condition of a hired laborer; that both these assumptions are false, and all inferences from them groundless. They hold that labor is prior to, and independent of, capital; that, in fact, capital is the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed; that labor can exist without capital, but that capital could never have existed without labor. Hence they hold that labor is the superior – greatly the superior – of capital. They do not deny that there is, and probably always will be, a relation between labor and capital. The error, as they hold, is in assuming that the whole labor of the world exists within that relation. A few men own capital; and that few avoid labor themselves, and with [p. 249] their capital hire or buy another few to labor for them. A large majority belong to neither class – neither work for others, nor have others working for them. Even in all our slave States except South Carolina, a majority of the whole people of all colors are neither slaves nor masters. In these free States, a large majority are neither hirers nor hired. Men, with their families – wives, sons and daughters – work for themselves, on their farms, in their houses, and in their shops, taking the whole product to themselves, and asking no favors of capital on the one hand, nor of hirelings or slaves on the other. It is not forgotten that a considerable number of persons mingle their own labor with capital – that is, labor with their own hands and also buy slaves or hire free men to labor for them; but this is only a mixed, and not a distinct, class. No principle stated is disturbed by the existence of this mixed class. Again, as has already been said, the opponents of the "mud-sill" theory insist that there is not, of necessity, any such thing as the free hired laborer being fixed to that condition for life. There is demonstration for saying this. Many independent men in this assembly doubtless a few years ago were hired laborers. And their case is almost, if not quite, the general rule. The prudent, penniless beginner in the world [p. 250] labors for wages awhile, saves a surplus with which to buy tools or land for himself, then labors on his own account another while, and at length hires another new beginner to help him. This, say its advocates, is free labor – the just, and generous, and prosperous system, which opens the way for all, gives hope to all, and energy, and progress, and improvement of condition to all. If any continue through life in the condition of the hired laborer, it is not the fault of the system, but because of either a dependent nature which prefers it, or improvidence, folly, or singular misfortune. I have said this much about the elements of labor generally, as introductory to the consideration of a new phase which that element is in process of assuming. The old general rule was that educated people did not perform manual labor. They managed to eat their bread, leaving the toil of producing it to the uneducated. This was not an insupportable evil to the working bees, so long as the class of drones remained very small. But now, especially in these free States, nearly all are educated – quite too nearly all to leave the labor of the uneducated in any wise adequate to the support of the whole. It follows from this that henceforth educated people must labor.
all that from a guy with almnost no formal ejemakashun... hmmm....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: Thanks, Buck, that was exactly what I was looking for...not piece meal "this should be included" stuff (sorry, Glass, that's all your answer about the health care was)...but an actual list of what economic 'rights' a minimum wage job should provide.
Now, two follow up questions about your list:
1) So any high school drop out should recieve $50k (if that is what it takes to provide the items on your list) a year bagging groceries as a first job so that we are 'humane' to him\her?
and
2) What is to say that when we do raise everyone's wages to that level that supply\demand doesn't drive the prices of said items beyond it so that we're back to square one?
As to your basket ball\baseball players question? No, both sports suck and they shouldn't be paid anything...
Seriously, you'd win that bet easily. As a capitalist, I believe that people should be paid whatever the market will bear. If there is someone willing to pay them that much to do what they do (as long as it's legal), then by all means may they enjoy the fruits of their 'labors'.
You are avoiding the 4 questions I asked you, and from your previous posts, you frown on that...
Do you view a house as a 'right' or an accomplishment?
Do you view transportation (I assume you mean a car and not public transporation) as a 'right' or as an accomplishment (especially a new year model)?
Do you view economic stablity in retirement years as a 'right' or as a consequence of years of financial restraint\responsibility?
Depending on how you answer these questions yourself, Buck, I think you're going to find my answers more in line with your "Heartless B@astard" comment.
First off, yes, I do want those things for me and my family. No, I do not expect them to be given to me. I expect to have to work for them and if I want to have 'better than average' in all the stated categories I FULLY expect that I will have to put forth 'better than average' efforts to achieve them.
quote:Why shouldn't an individual that doesn't have the ability either intellectually or financially to get a college degree, be afforded the same quality of life as you, if they are willing to work for it?
Because from a societal point of view they do not contribute to the whole in equal proportion. Supply and demand applies to labor, Buck. If someone can be easily replaced at a lower cost to the employer then the corresponding 'value' of that labor is lower than one that is harder to replace. Remember, college education is not the only form\manner to acquire 'value' to an employer. Years of service\honing skills is just as valuable (perhaps even more so) than a degree. It is the composite value that the individual has for the employer that dictates his\her wages.
quote:Why should they only be entitled to earn enough to take care of themselves and NOT have a family?
Mostly answered above, but with one other point. They aren't 'entitled' to anything in my opinion. Noone is. You can 'earn' whatever you're willing to labor for. If you wish to have a family, then find work that will allow it. Don't just expect everyone to hand you what you feel you 'deserve'.
quote:Do you view yourself as "superior" to those less fortunate/educated?
From a 'everyone has value' or a spritual 'great is the worth of souls in the eyes of God' aspect, of course not. As Glass posted about the children being innocent of their parents actions, I feel that all people are a valuable font of potential.
That being said, from a societal standpoint, some people's contributions to the whole are more valuable than others. That is why there are different pay grades\scales for different jobs. It is not the vaule of the person 'as a person' that is being 'judged', it is the value of their labors that is.
posted
They aren't 'entitled' to anything in my opinion. Noone is. You can 'earn' whatever you're willing to labor for. If you wish to have a family, then find work that will allow it. Don't just expect everyone to hand you what you feel you 'deserve'.
LOL, straw man argument.
nobody is suggesting they are entitled to maseratis adn champagne, or be handed anything for free.
they are endowed byt heir Creator with certain blah blah tho...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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posted
i'll try to back off on this a little, i am passioante about this simply cuz i belive that our Great Nation is like a chain, only as good as th eweakest link...
Buck and i (seem to me) to agree on this we shouldn't gang up and confuse the issues.. it is an inpportant issue and will be fought out in this campaign season as hard as it has ever been sincce Lincoln got elected.. it will be dirty and nashty
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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posted
That being said, from a societal standpoint, some people's contributions to the whole are more valuable than others. That is why there are different pay grades\scales for different jobs. It is not the vaule of the person 'as a person' that is being 'judged', it is the value of their labors that is.
sorry, i just can't resit this one...
what are Donnie and Marie actually worth?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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posted
First off, I view a home, transportation, health care and economic stability in retirement years as NECESSITIES for a healthy society. ANYONE willing to work hard and do the best that they can do with the facilities that they have, should have the right to earn enough to pay for those NECESSITIES...
As far as YOUR societal point of view that non college grads do not contribute to the whole in equal proportion, is where you lose me...sounds like you consider yourself SUPERIOR to others less fortunate than yourself...The FACT remains that not everyone has the ability financially/intellectually to get a college degree.
Also I am all for more knowledge/skill = higher pay...I thought we were talking about minimum/living wage?
I believe that ANYONE in this country that is willing to work is entitled to a "living" wage...
Lastly in response to YOUR societal point of view that:
"some people's contributions to the whole are more valuable than others. That is why there are different pay grades\scales for different jobs. It is not the vaule of the person 'as a person' that is being 'judged', it is the value of their labors that is."
Sounds to me that you believe that someone playing basketball or "pretending" to be someone they are not, is far more valuable to society than someone attempting to find a cure for cancer.
The difference between you and I SF...
I am a capitalist with a sense of community and you are a capitalist that views yourself superior to others less fortunate than yourself...
quote:Originally posted by glassman: That being said, from a societal standpoint, some people's contributions to the whole are more valuable than others. That is why there are different pay grades\scales for different jobs. It is not the vaule of the person 'as a person' that is being 'judged', it is the value of their labors that is.
posted
posted 19-04-2012 11:12 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- They aren't 'entitled' to anything in my opinion. Noone is. You can 'earn' whatever you're willing to labor for. If you wish to have a family, then find work that will allow it. Don't just expect everyone to hand you what you feel you 'deserve'.
-------------------------------------------------
The above statement is proof of why we need a good minimum wage. There is just work that does not pay a wage that can support what society considers a normal life for humans. That in it self is a crime. And the cost to society is very high.
In primitive societies there is a miniumum wage in that every body is clothed,shelterd,and eats. And everybody does what they can do. With our native Americans the top hunterproducer, had the honor of providing more for the whole tribe this was his reward.
My whole point is that a person that works 48 hours a week and can't feed his family is a victim not a bum and living in a criminal society.That paid people a super good wage like me to contain its mistakes and be schooled in the art of doing it.
As far as there is jobs that don't pay a living standard there will be people that have to do them,thus there will be people denided the happiness of a full life or there right to the persuit of happiness.
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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quote:As far as YOUR societal point of view that non college grads do not contribute to the whole in equal proportion, is where you lose me...sounds like you consider yourself SUPERIOR to others less fortunate than yourself...The FACT remains that not everyone has the ability financially/intellectually to get a college degree.
Did you read my post, Buck, nowhere did I state that college education is the defining factor of 'value'.
Years of service\honing skills is just as valuable (perhaps even more so) than a degree. It is the composite value that the individual has for the employer that dictates his\her wages.
Lack of college WITH lack of marketable skills WITH lack of experience\ability does cause one's labor to be less 'valuable' than someone who has one or more of the above.
quote:Sounds to me that you believe that someone playing basketball or "pretending" to be someone they are not, is far more valuable to society than someone attempting to find a cure for cancer.
To me, no, they aren't. To someone else willing to pay them? Perhaps. It's not MY place to tell an employer what he can or can't pay someone.
Now, unless I've missed one of your questions, kindly answer mine.
1) So any high school drop out should recieve $50k (if that is what it takes to provide the items on your list) a year bagging groceries as a first job so that we are 'humane' to him\her?
and
2) What is to say that when we do raise everyone's wages to that level that supply\demand doesn't drive the prices of said items beyond it so that we're back to square one?
quote:The above statement is proof of why we need a good minimum wage. There is just work that does not pay a wage that can support what society considers a normal life for humans. That in it self is a crime. And the cost to society is very high.
Minimum wage is a worthless metric, Glass. Everytime it's raised, those who feel they are 'worth' more than minimum wage fight for a pay increase as well. (See Minimum Wage Plus contracts used by Unions) As everyone's pay goes up, so must the cost of what is produced by the company to pay for the increased outlay. Increased prices mean less of an actual 'effective' raise. Additionally, when the consumer (in general) has more money to spend, producers charge more (again, supply and demand). Raising wages (through mandates) is not a silver bullet for poverty.
This is why we will always have poverty. 'Poor' is a relative term (as you alluded to above). What we consider poor here is middle to upper class in most of the world (speaking in terms of geographical space). As you raise the standard of living accross the board (which we argueably already have the highest standards existant) what is considered 'poor' simply changes.
quote:The above statement is proof of why we need a good minimum wage. There is just work that does not pay a wage that can support what society considers a normal life for humans. That in it self is a crime. And the cost to society is very high.
Minimum wage is a worthless metric, Glass. Everytime it's raised, those who feel they are 'worth' more than minimum wage fight for a pay increase as well. (See Minimum Wage Plus contracts used by Unions) As everyone's pay goes up, so must the cost of what is produced by the company to pay for the increased outlay. Increased prices mean less of an actual 'effective' raise. Additionally, when the consumer (in general) has more money to spend, producers charge more (again, supply and demand). Raising wages (through mandates) is not a silver bullet for poverty.
This is why we will always have poverty. 'Poor' is a relative term (as you alluded to above). What we consider poor here is middle to upper class in most of the world (speaking in terms of geographical space). As you raise the standard of living accross the board (which we argueably already have the highest standards existant) what is considered 'poor' simply changes.
It doesn't go away.
fisrt off? you were answering ray not me. I'm not really "for" a "minimum wage" cuz i do understand that it tends to drive others to demand more, that said, we cannot expect peopl e to keep our toilets clean for a non-living wage, so we import illegal labor to fill the jobs "none wants" LOL.. it's a joke right? i mean big biz wants the illegals for keeping overall wages down and the people who really want them gone are the poor working slobs that find their wages shut down by it...
Captialism really is a pyramid, i agree, but the base must be strong or the capstone will not sty up.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Do you actually work for a living...or are you just a college student in perpetuity? Not picking a fight, just curious because of your stated views.
I've worked for quite some time, P. After I returned from Brazil I've been out on my own, bought and sold several houses, gotten married, two kids, and just recently started going to college because my employer has a tuition reimbursement policy that makes it within my reach. Full time work, full time school and (I try) full time father\husband.
Just FYI, neither my father nor my father in law are college educated, yet both make really good money because they've applied themselves to their chosen fields. College isn't the ONLY path, but it surely helps.
Do you actually work for a living...or are you just a college student in perpetuity? Not picking a fight, just curious because of your stated views.
I've worked for quite some time, P. After I returned from Brazil I've been out on my own, bought and sold several houses, gotten married, two kids, and just recently started going to college because my employer has a tuition reimbursement policy that makes it within my reach. Full time work, full time school and (I try) full time father\husband.
Just FYI, neither my father nor my father in law are college educated, yet both make really good money because they've applied themselves to their chosen fields. College isn't the ONLY path, but it surely helps.
Interesting. So "after you returned from Brazil", you are now out on your own? I guess you mean no longer living at your parents residence? What is your profession if you don't mind me asking? You seem very book/theory smart.....but lacking in real world applications of the views you espouse. Again, not picking a fight, just trying to get a handle on your thinking.
-------------------- It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
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I have not lived with my parents for over 15 years. I've worked various jobs including (but not limited to! lol) sheet metal fab, construction, landscaping, retail, janatorial, internet tech support, real estate and production. Currently I'm the technical specialist/front line sup. for a medical device production line. I keep the robots and machines running while trying to keep the people running them from killing themselves/eachother.
How about yourself, P? Care to give us a dossiere?
posted
I don't think you tell the truth seeking I did not answer pagan nor did he answer me. The only thing you most likley done is dumpster diving. As for your parents I don't want to know what they do most likley they are nice folks.
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: LOL, I'll play along.
I have not lived with my parents for over 15 years. I've worked various jobs including (but not limited to! lol) sheet metal fab, construction, landscaping, retail, janatorial, internet tech support, real estate and production. Currently I'm the technical specialist/front line sup. for a medical device production line. I keep the robots and machines running while trying to keep the people running them from killing themselves/eachother.
How about yourself, P? Care to give us a dossiere?
I don't believe a word of that. Your a professional student. You can tell by the way you post. Trolling for arguments/conversation. have fun with that.
-------------------- It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
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quote:I don't believe a word of that. Your a professional student. You can tell by the way you post. Trolling for arguments/conversation. have fun with that.
ROFLMAO, and this is the childish stuff that keeps me ignoring you and Ray.
Internet ettiquette, P, don't ask for personal information. One, they (I) can't prove a word of it, and you can't disprove it.
Calling someone a liar without proof is not exactly mature or endearing.
posted
Seeking I have just profiled you and it ain't nice I think you need help I am very good at this sort of thing you poor young man. I am not going to bother you anymore ifyou like you can put me on ignore. I hope you get better soon.
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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With our native Americans the top hunterproducer, had the honor of providing more for the whole tribe this was his reward.
This is called socialism. Great in theory, doesn't work in practical application. We do it in our family life all the time.
Some people get paid min wage due to their on mistakes. IE dropped out of school, drug abuse, ect. Some due to no fault of their own. Hard work does not always pay off.
-------------------- You never really grow up you just learn how to act in public.
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