posted
heck, i'd like it if they issue a good card that has the added potential to stop ID theft, i get more and more concerned about that as time goes by.
I get carded at the local gas station now for tobacco, where they see me and put my smokes on the counter when i come in the door... i'm way over thirty, but they ask everyone now because they got caught selling alcohol to minors.. no big deal to me...
see my from:? it's been that way since day 1, i am proud of being from here even when i critisize what WE do... asking for ID is going on everywhere, why do we pick one issue out to make it about a police state?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
There was a period of about a year and a half when an ID was handy for bars, because state law jumped from 21 to 18 (or 19?) then back again. So club owners were kinda freaked out. Other than that I haven't needed an ID since I was 16.
Smokes? Never seen it happen. Not saying it shouldn't, just never seen it.
Plane ticket? sure. Credit card? Yeah, OK...sometimes it bugs me, but I understand the need.
I don't think it's stretching. Despite the leniency toward alcohol when I was coming up, remember where I am--I've seen kids/young adults go to prison for a roach, or even seeds in the carpet of a car. Ask well-heeled folks here what they think of the Texas Rangers (*not* the MLB team, lol), and you'll get a w-a-y different answer than from Hispanics down in the Valley.
From law enforcement's point of view, laws are meant to be s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d.
posted
i've walked well beyond the stretch area of the law, i've spent a good deal of time in Mexico and other countries like Mexico where i'm the minority.
Folks (citizens) here in America take alot of very basic things for granted. Stupid stuff, like opening a faucet (any faucet) and drinking the water... Thats' why people come here to apreciate what we do have. BUT we are losing it, and most of the reason is because people take it for granted. people automatically think of a flush toilet here when they get the urge to go... man that's not the rest of the wolrd it just ain't...
I do understand why the immigrants are afraid of the law, they are breaking it. They aren't going to be singled out for mistreatment, the law SHOULD bust them if they are breaking the law... I've been there myself, i'm not taking this position out of some sense of "unfairness" to me or my family personally, or having to share my country and not wanting to. I have driven cross country averaging 80 miles per hour with stops and if/when i got a ticket? I have not complained. Get my drift here? I've sat in jail for a few hours before just for being a little short of cash to pay the whole fine, it only happened once tho. Do the crime pay the fine and move on... All this "we want you to be FAIR to us while break your laws" is BS. Drug dealers that are not into heroin and crack? I could care less about them. It should be legal but it aint, but since it is illegal they charge more for the risk they take, and when they get caught they pay the lawyers and plea down as much as they can to stay out of jail as much as possible. Its the life they chose, jail is part of the reality of it, just like being sent back and coming back across four five times is the illegals choice. The second time they get caught, they should do a year and be a felon, the third time? Five years. We have sent third time losers to life in jail for stealing pizza's in this country, but illegal immigrants are ignored? NOPe not right.
I have finally taken this position after living in SoCali and watching it fall to pieces while i was there. When i was kid? CA was THE place to be. I went there a few times and loved it. I was there in the 80's and loved it. BUT by the late 90's it became a zoo.
If you ask me? the peopl that hire illegals are crooks too. They are worse than the immigrants, and i beleived that simply cracking down on them would work. I proposed it here several years before Bush finally had to face the fact that the American People would not allow amnesty to be given. The phones in Congress rang off the hooks... McCain and Kenendy were the ones that wrote the bill, Bush backed it and they were all afraid to push it forward, because there are alot of very middle middle middle calss people who don't hire illegals and don't like to see them abused like they are, we don't like the way it is undercutting middle middle class people. That Corker punkk Senator Tenn? He made 100 million offa building houses duringthe bubble and while he never hired an illegal? His contractors that he hired got busted all the time. Corkers contractors bid the jobs lower using illegal labor and Corker was able to sell the houses for even more profit, and people actually bid against each to buy the damn things. He squeezed on both sides. Thats the power structure we are fighting.
The immigrants? I feel for them. I don't like this situation at all. BUT they are the second biggest part of the problem. I want them to be able to work her LEGALLY and that means they should go home and apply -ALL of them. We will bring them back legally because we do need them. By sneaking in like they do? They are asking to be abused. They need to smarten up and hold out for fair pay and better treatment, at home. This situation is not sustainable, and i am very confident that if Obama doesn't get something done that does not include any Amnesty? He'll go down hard, even against a dip like Sarah....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:If you ask me? the peopl that hire illegals are crooks too. They are worse than the immigrants, and i beleived that simply cracking down on them would wrok. I propesed it here several years before Bush finally had to face the fact that the American People would not allow amnesty to be given. The phones in Congress rang off the hooks...
Not mutually exclusive, employers & amnesty.
It's gotta start with the employers. Period, end of story. Until that happens in a crackdown, methodical way, chicken companies (et al) and contractors and illegals will know whatever is being said or debated is fluffy lip service.
For example, one of the first "discussments" you and I ever had was over this very same topic, and I took the position of letting the market rule. You took me to task for hiring day labor comprising a significant amount of what were most likely undocumented workers (illegals).
Well, time passed. The city made it a ticket-able offense to pick up labor off the street (and targeted the "known" areas for police patrol).
Oh...but wait.
Simultaneously (or to be accurate, contemporaneously), the city *also* created a day-labor center, where contractors and workers could go to a central, city-controlled spot. Everybody signed in on a log sheet, and business went on as usual.
So there was a record of sorts, available if a worker got cheated out of wages, or got mistreated on the job; or if a contractor reported a worker for whatever...
BUT, it was all "names & phone numbers." No SS#, no EIN#, no insurance policy #...no way to 1099, etc.
Yet, as a contractor, you're obeying local ordinances and thinking the city is taking care of business. As a worker, you're thinking, "Man, this is much safer than working the street--plus, if I get stiffed, the nice city man has the contractor's phone number."
posted
I agree With Tex employers are the first key I have said so for years on this board.
The only reason a person in Mexico takes that first run over the border is the plain fact that there is a job that he or she can get.
All the other methods of stopping illegals is simply pissing into the wind and a waste of time.
When AZ was going to go after Employers before they started this program I never heard of any employer who faced any punishment for there crime. Yet somebody could walk down Bell RD in Phoenix and see dozens of illegals working in all kinds of jobs and nobody does nothing obout it even though there are strict laws against a business that hires them.
Why does thist go on one answer business people have poliical clout behind them.
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise. Posts: 3827 | From: beautiful California | Registered: Sep 2008
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As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.
this 7 billion a year is coming in thru the use of stolen identities,a nd fake identities.
the Government can easily track every one of those.
7 billion a year at 10,000$ per year represents 700,000 people working on fraudulent tax papers. That's another federal crime, seperate from illegal entry.
it's also wrong on two levels the taxes are being collected with wink and a nod, the government is being complicit in ripping these people off.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
People don't believe that a national ID card is the catalyst for calling this country a police state. It already IS a police state. How many laws are on the books at this moment? Hundreds of thousands? Millions? Poof... Police State. The national ID card is just one more step towards centralizing government.. Violating both the constitution and the founding of this nation of States. Any thoughts that eagerly await this development are born of grotesque naivety.
Posts: 2965 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: People don't believe that a national ID card is the catalyst for calling this country a police state. It already IS a police state. How many laws are on the books at this moment? Hundreds of thousands? Millions? Poof... Police State. The national ID card is just one more step towards centralizing government.. Violating both the constitution and the founding of this nation of States. Any thoughts that eagerly await this development are born of grotesque naivety.
'bout time you weighed in, whatcha been doing sleeping?
so the US Govt has no right to issue a legal ID?
hmmmm.... i don't recall that being in the Constitution.
I have a VA card that i consider to be national ID already, it's even got my ugly mug on it...
you are correct, we already are a police state with certain crimes being ignored intentionally and people are being abused by it. In a Democratic Republic the laws are created to be enforced evenly and equally.
what on earth is wrong with a citizen carryng ID card that ID's them as a taxpaying citizen with skin in the game. It may ID them as having rights?
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posted
even the ultra-liberal UN recognises that only Citizens have the right to vote.
ICCPR, Article 25: Every citizen shall have the right and the opportunity, without any of the distinctions mentioned in Article 2 and without unreasonable restrictions: (a) To take part in the conduct of public affairs, directly or through freely chosen representatives; (b) To vote and to be elected at genuine periodic elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret ballot, guaranteeing the free expression of the will of the electors; (c) To have access, on general terms of equality, to public service in his country.
if we cannot ID voters to determine that htey are citizens? then we are NOT a Sovereign Nation period. The whole notion of Sovereignty is at stake here. Without Sovereignty? The Govt has no authority at all.
Sovereignty is the quality of having supreme, independent authority over a territory. It can be found in a power to rule and make law that rests on a political fact for which no purely legal explanation can be provided. The concept has been discussed, debated and questioned throughout history, from the time of the Romans through to the present day, although it has changed in its definition, concept, and application throughout, especially during the Age of Enlightenment. The current notion of state sovereignty was laid down in the Treaty of Westphalia (1648), which, in relation to states, codified the basic principles of territorial integrity, border inviolability, and supremacy of the state (rather than the Church). A sovereign is a supreme lawmaking authority.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights. Ratified 7/9/1868. Note History
1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.
this ammendment clearly makes Citizneship rights differnt from personhood rights.
personhood rights are granted by God to persons, Citizenship rights are granted by the govt in acknowledgement of Citizenship.
This is fundamental to sovereignty. The problem people are having is they want to grant all rights to everybody without distinction, and that's not Constitutional.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
suppose a Natural Born Citizen wins the Presidency with CA as the deciding State in the electoral college. Suppose the winner in the CA general elections won the state by margin LESS than the number of voting illegal immigrants? The election is false isn't it?
before you tell me that can't happen? Don't bother.
In 2005, the U.S. Government Accountability Office found that up to 3 percent of the 30,000 individuals called for jury duty from voter registration rolls over a two-year period in just one U.S. district court were not U.S. citizens. While that may not seem like many, just 3 percent of registered voters would have been more than enough to provide the winning presidential vote margin in Florida in 2000. Indeed, the Census Bureau estimates that there are over a million illegal aliens in Florida, and the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) has prosecuted more non-citizen voting cases in Florida than in any other state.
doesn't this really matter alot?
in fact? doesn't a 3% margin of victory get nullified by this figure?
in fact this makes our govt null and void according to the Constitution itself.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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The REAL ID Act of 2005, Pub.L. 109-13, 119 Stat. 302, enacted May 11, 2005, was an Act of Congress that modified U.S. federal law pertaining to security, authentication, and issuance procedures standards for the state driver's licenses and identification (ID) cards, as well as various immigration issues pertaining to terrorism.
The law set forth certain requirements for state driver's licenses and ID cards to be accepted by the federal government for "official purposes", as defined by the Secretary of Homeland Security. The Secretary of Homeland Security has defined "official purposes" as presenting state driver's licenses and identification cards for boarding commercially operated airline flights and entering federal buildings and nuclear power plants.
The REAL ID Act implements the following:
* Changing visa limits for temporary workers, nurses, and Australian citizens. * Establishing new national standards for state-issued driver licenses and non-driver identification cards. * Funding some reports and pilot projects related to border security. * Introducing rules covering "delivery bonds" (rather like bail bonds but for aliens who have been released pending hearings). * Updating and tightening the laws on application for asylum and deportation of aliens for terrorist activity. * Waiving laws that interfere with construction of physical barriers at the borders.
As of April 2, 2008, all 50 states have either applied for extensions of the original May 11, 2008 compliance deadline or received unsolicited extensions.[1] As of October 2009[update], 25 states have approved either resolutions or binding legislation not to participate in the program, and with President Obama's selection of Janet Napolitano (a prominent critic of the program) to head the Department of Homeland Security, the future of the law remains uncertain,[2] and bills have been introduced into Congress to amend or repeal it.[3] The most recent of these, dubbed PASS ID, would eliminate many of the more burdensome technological requirements but still require states to meet federal standards in order to have their ID cards accepted by federal agencies.
On March 2, 2007, it was announced that enforcement of the Act would be postponed for two years.[8] The provisions of the bill will be delayed from going into effect until December 2009. On January 11, 2008, it was announced that the deadline has been extended again, until 2011, in hopes of gaining more support from states.[9] On the same date the Department of Homeland Security released the final rule[10] regarding the implementation of the driver's licenses provisions of the Real ID Act.[1
posted
I am aware of the methods used to circumvent the system. They are crude and effective ONLY because enforcement people overlook them intentionally.
to back this clam?
The Pakistani-born man, who became a U.S. citizen last year, is accused of parking a crude car bomb in New York's crowded Times Square on May 1. He was arrested aboard a Dubai-bound jetliner two days later.
we didn't even know who the dude was when he left the car bomb in Times Square and caught his butt on the plane within 48 hours....
we have tremendous capbilities that are being intentionally ignored in the illegal issue.
had this guy been illegal? the argument would have been over? nope 9-11 hijackers were illegal and still nobody acts.
here's some stats on demographics:
Among Mexicans, who make up about half the illegal immigrant population, 48 percent are married or have a common-law spouse; more than two-thirds of that percentage live with their spouses in this country. The Pew report noted that about one-third of illegal Mexican immigrants with families have left all their children in Mexico.
note that ONLY half of illegals are Mexican. Apperently this is not just a Mexican Issue.
The next largest nationality of illegals here are from India.
[ May 23, 2010, 15:35: Message edited by: glassman ]
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
As of 2006, the United States accepts more legal immigrants as permanent residents than all other countries in the world combined.[1] Since the liberalization of immigration policy in 1965,[2] the number of first- generation immigrants living in the United States has quadrupled,[3] from 9.6 million in 1970 to about 38 million in 2007.[4]
America admitted more legal immigrants from 1991 to 2000 (between 10-11 million) than in any previous decade.
In 2006, a total of 1,266,264 immigrants became legal permanent residents of the United States, up from 601,516 in 1987, 849,807 in 2000, and 1,122,373 in 2005.[49] The top twelve migrant-sending countries in 2006, by country of birth, were Mexico (173,753), People's Republic of China (87,345), Philippines (74,607), India (61,369), Cuba (45,614), Colombia (43,151), Dominican Republic (38,069), El Salvador (31,783), Vietnam (30,695), Jamaica (24,976), South Korea (24,386), Guatemala (24,146), Other countries - 606,370.[50] In fiscal year 2006, 202 refugees from Iraq were allowed to resettle in the United States.[51][52] Muslim immigration to the U.S. is rising and in 2005 alone more people from Muslim countries became legal permanent U.S. residents — nearly 96,000 — than in any year in the previous two decades.[53][54]
1,046,539 persons were naturalized as U.S. citizens in 2008. The leading countries of birth of the new citizens were Mexico, India and the Philippines.
Calderones comments were a slap in our face as far as i'm concerened.
the illegals are ruining it for the legals. we could allow MORE leqally and at higher pay rates if the illegals were not here.
Many cities, including Washington D.C., New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco, San Diego, San Jose, Salt Lake City, Phoenix, Dallas, Fort Worth, Houston, Detroit, Jersey City, Minneapolis, Miami, Denver, Baltimore, Seattle, Portland, Oregon and Portland, Maine, have adopted sanctuary ordinances banning police from asking people about their immigration status
those cities are in direct defiance of Federal Law. as such, they should forfeit every single Federal Dollar they receive. That IS how Federal dollars are supposed to work.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
That article is pretty much what i have seen before.
But nobody really talks much about the state side and how state unemployment and disability falls under a different category.
New id is issued by the state to collect their benefits.
Those green card and social security card prices i am sure vary, whatever the market can bear.
This has been going on since way back in the 70's and before, as i am sure you are aware.
I remember working for a company in the 1970's and employees would leave the company and go to Mexico for several months and have a completely different first and last name when they returned.
These worker's mostly males, must have gotten re-married or re-born!
I am sure the employer didn't know that anything was fishy.
posted
I am sure the employer didn't know that anything was fishy.
this is a large part of my problem with the system.
the employers don't want to know, the SS admin doesn't want to know.
we don't live in the 70's anymore. I can log onto my bank accounts and get up-to-the minute account activity even on the weekends.
heck, one of my credit cards has a tendency to put a hold on my card in the middle of the night whenever i travel.... it would piss me off if i didn't have other cards to buy gas, they can literally tack all of my movements by credit card if they want to.
do i complain? nope, they caught somebody using it in Texas last year and i was not charged one cent of what they put on it. The card had never left my possession, the number was apparently captured and cloned at a gas station in town along with a couple hundred others.... Apparently this is a DAILY occurrence nationwide, and they sop it fairly effectively.
My banks and financial institution are required BY LAW to verify who i am. Several shady pink sheet stock manipulators have been busted and their Brokers prosecuted under the Know Your Customer laws....
We can easily track the money transfer system and know who where and when on a lrge part of the illegals that are using cash. And i know we do it to catch terror suspects.
this situation is not about about lack of ability, it is about lack of honesty and integrity at all levels of our society.
people are literally of the attitude that if you make it across the border? you are here and should be able to stay. Close the border, but don't ask people here if they belong?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I agree heartily to hitting the employers who hire illegals (which is what ICE has quietly transitioned to doing since this administration took over) and I am open to the idea of a national ID card...but I'd want to know how that card system would be better protected against fraud as opposed to DL's and SSN's.
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
actually Bush began doing it after the Mccain Kennedy act was dropped..
Obama has cut back on the number of enforcement actions since he took office. the number of people working illegally that were caught in '09 dropped to half what had caught in 2008.
President cuts border security budget February 2, 8:05 AMLaw Enforcement ExaminerJim Kouri
While telling the American people that national security is a priority in his administration, President Barack Obama submitted a 2011 budget proposal that includes cuts to U.S. border security. The proposed budget cuts include a reduction in Border Patrol agents and a cut in the amount of money allocated for the so-called "virtual fence" on the U.S.-Mexico border, which critics claim is a pipe dream in lieu of a real border fence
In the midst of a firestorm over Homeland Security Secretary Napolitano's failure to appear before a Congressional committee hearing, officials from her office confirmed the proposed cuts on Monday. They said, however, that there would be no lay-offs of Border Patrol agents and the reduction in positions would be achieved through attrition as agents retire or transfer to other Homeland Security departments.
Obama's proposed budget cut also would eliminate $226 million that had been allocated for an electronic "virtual fence" system along the border. Known as "SBInet," the strategy is to install cameras, radar and sensors to detect humans and contraband coming into the U.S..
Obama White House officials told reporters that even though the President is seeking cuts in border programs, the administration is seeking an additional $10 million to create Border Enforcement Security Task Forces in Honolulu, San Francisco, and Massena, N.Y.
as i have already posted, it is very easy to verify ID cards in a national databsae, Credit card co's do it very well. I get instant verification on credit cards as soon as i enter them into the computer. it's less than one minute.
breaking news right now? Obama is beefing up the border, asking for more money and troops too.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Seems to me Obama has heard enough he's going to cave in on this, because all the polls show that a rather large majority of Citizens here want the illegals to go home.
Mccain is already on CNN complaining that what Obama is sending ain't enough...
we have the technology to track all the illegals here right now if we WANT to. Not on a minute by minute basis but on a monthly basis.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
A national ID card we already have one a ss card. And when it first came out people did not like the idea. DR lic on the state level we have a lot of cards that serve as ID.
But most of all the protest comes from the relegious right and the anti fascist groupes. I just think it is part of our American society to not like such means of ID.
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise. Posts: 3827 | From: beautiful California | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: Seems to me Obama has heard enough he's going to cave in on this, because all the polls show that a rather large majority of Citizens here want the illegals to go home.
Mccain is already on CNN complaining that what Obama is sending ain't enough...
we have the technology to track all the illegals here right now if we WANT to. Not on a minute by minute basis but on a monthly basis.
Care to expound on that glassman?
-------------------- It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. Posts: 3311 | From: St. Louis | Registered: Feb 2005
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raybond posted the link on the Obama news. It wasn't online yet when i posted: Obama just asked for 500million to add troops to the border.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by raybond: [QB] Obama to send up to 1,200 troops to border $500 million also sought to improve security, Arizona congresswoman says The Associated Press updated 1:35 p.m. PT, Tues., May 25, 2010
closing the border will give him some negotiating room to get a bill passed. the AZ bill is constitutional so they can't "kill it"... "amnesty" will be the problem, the way to get a solution to that is have them apply for citizenship only from their home country even tho they have green card.. that way they won't be cutting in line...
Obama is no dummy, he knows the health care bill pushed the limits, he's going to have to do some real politicking to get immigration reform, i hope he does and i hope it is FAIR to everybody citizens and non-citizens.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: heck, i'd like it if they issue a good card that has the added potential to stop ID theft, i get more and more concerned about that as time goes by.
I get carded at the local gas station now for tobacco, where they see me and put my smokes on the counter when i come in the door... i'm way over thirty, but they ask everyone now because they got caught selling alcohol to minors.. no big deal to me...
see my from:? it's been that way since day 1, i am proud of being from here even when i critisize what WE do... asking for ID is going on everywhere, why do we pick one issue out to make it about a police state?
What if it was a chip forced in you?
Posts: 2634 | From: The highway | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Sorry for the delay glassman. I was referring to this portion of your post.
"we have the technology to track all the illegals here right now if we WANT to. Not on a minute by minute basis but on a monthly basis."
What technology are you referring to?
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