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August 12, 2009 Obama Takes Health Care Debate to a N.H. School By HELENE COOPER PORTSMOUTH, N.H. — Fans and foes of President Obama’s push to overhaul health care descended on a local high school here on Tuesday, ostensibly to give the visiting Mr. Obama a piece of their minds. In reality, they appeared to spend a lot more time yelling at each other.
“Parasites!” yelled the protestors on the right side of the school’s driveway who oppose the president’s plan.
“Ignorants!” yelled the protestors on the left side who support it.
While apparently failing to convert the people on the right side of the driveway, Mr. Obama sought to reassure the 1,800 people inside the school gymnasium that health care overhaul did not mean Americans would lose their coverage or surrender treatment decisions to the government. Special interest groups seeking to block change, Mr. Obama said, were trying to scare people with misinformation, creating “boogeymen out there that just aren’t real.”
“Where we do disagree, let’s disagree over things that are real, not these wild misrepresentations that bear no resemblance to anything that has actually been proposed,” Mr. Obama told the audience.
Unlike most of Mr. Obama’s town-hall-style meetings, which are usually filled with supporters, Tuesday’s meeting included a few skeptics of his plan. He also sought questions from those skeptics, at one point asking that only people who disagreed with his health proposal raise their hand.
There were plenty who did. One woman, a school teacher from Portsmouth, asked where the country was going to get the doctors and nurses to attend to all the newly insured people that changes to the health care system might bring. Another questioner, Bill Anderson, complained that Medicare tried to force him to take a generic for Lipitor, the anticholesterol drug, which did not agree with him, before allowing him to return to the name-brand drug. And Ben Hershenson, a self-described Republican —”I don’t know what I’m doing here.”— fretted that a government-run public option would kill private insurance companies.
Mr. Obama said health care overhaul would free up doctors to concentrate on treatment because they would not be prodded to schedule unnecessary tests. He said the fact that Medicare allowed Mr. Anderson to return to Lipitor showed that the federal system worked. And he said that a government-run public option should not put private insurers out of business, but rather force them to be more competitive, even going so far as to compare the competition between the two to the competition among Federal Express, U.P.S, and the Postal Service.
“U.P.S. and FedEx are doing just fine,” Mr. Obama joked. “It’s the post office that’s always having problems.”
Outside the school, things were a little less civil. There looked to be about 2,000 people, and the distribution seemed to be pretty balanced — 50 percent for reform and 50 percent against. “Euthanize Obama!” one protester on the right side of the driveway yelled at Tom Jordan, a social studies teacher from Amesbury, Mass., who stood with the president’s supporters on the left side and held up a “Euthanize Ignorance: Go Obama” sign.
Mr. Jordan shook his head. “You look at these guys, with their Hitler posters and their communist posters,” he said. “How can they say Obama is both at the same time?”
Across the driveway from Mr. Jordan, holding one of those Hitler posters — “Hey America, You want Change? Hitler did too!” — stood Diane Campbell, a Dunkin’ Donuts franchise owner from Kingstown, N.H..
Although Mr. Obama has stressed that the changes he supports would leave employers and private insurers as the primary conduits of health insurance, Ms. Campbell, like many other opponents of the Democratic approach, expressed fear that the legislation would leave the government to make life or death decisions about which patients would get treatment and which would not.
“Hitler killed six million people; he killed everyone who wasn’t perfect,” Ms. Campbell said. “I have an elderly mom and a severely handicapped sister, and I fear for their lives if this plan goes though.”
Ms. Campbell said she knew plenty about government health insurance and wanted no part of it.
“My pastor’s wife’s grandmother is Canadian, and she died waiting for care while she was on a waiting list to see a doctor,” she said, holding up a sign from Americans for Prosperity, an industry-financed organization that opposes Mr. Obama’s proposals to overhaul health care. “And the same thing happened to my pastor’s wife’s friend — she died waiting for care in Canada, too.”
The tone of the national debate over the future of health care has become increasingly emotional, even bitter, as reflected in comments by lawmakers across the political spectrum.
In introducing a Web site to defend the president’s proposals, White House officials were tacitly acknowledging a difficult reality: they are suddenly at risk of losing control of the public debate over a signature issue for Mr. Obama and are now playing defense in a way they have not since last year’s campaign.
Senator Bernard Sanders of Vermont, an independent who is one of the most liberal members in Congress, said Tuesday that “the Republicans are the party of do-nothingism, and because of them it is very hard to move forward.”
But Mr. Sanders, in an interview on MSNBC, said that “frankly, the Democrats have not handled this as clearly and effectively as they might have.”
Representative Peter King, Republican of New York, offered a different perspective, saying it was quite understandable that many Americans were not enthusiastic about “the radical type of reform that President Obama’s talking about.”
The health care system should be changed “incrementally” rather than all at once, Mr. King said on MSNBC. The congressman said he thought the White House had made a tactical error in its approach on health care. “It may not be perfect,” he said of the current system, conceding that Americans “may have problems with it.”
“But it’s not the rabid-type issue that had to be solved by Aug. 1 of this year, the way President Obama was saying,” Mr. King said.
David Stout contributed from Washington.
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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quote: “Where we do disagree, let’s disagree over things that are real, not these wild misrepresentations that bear no resemblance to anything that has actually been proposed,” Mr. Obama told the audience.
Awesome response. This is why folks like me are so high on our current President.
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Murkowski ‘offended’ by Palin’s ‘death panel’ fearmongering. Sarah Palin’s claim last week that President Obama plans to institute bureaucratic “death panels” has been called “crazy” and “nuts” by pundits and lawmakers looking to distance themselves from the untrue and ugly rhetoric. But perhaps the harshest rebuke came last night from a fellow Alaskan, Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R), who said while speaking to a crowd in Anchorage that she was “offended” by Palin’s baseless attack:
“It does us no good to incite fear in people by saying that there’s these end-of-life provisions, these death panels,” Murkowski, a Republican, said. “Quite honestly, I’m so offended at that terminology because it absolutely isn’t (in the bill). There is no reason to gin up fear in the American public by saying things that are not included in the bill.“
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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quote: “Where we do disagree, let’s disagree over things that are real, not these wild misrepresentations that bear no resemblance to anything that has actually been proposed,” Mr. Obama told the audience.
Awesome response. This is why folks like me are so high on our current President.
There are things people disagree on that wont change. Its Obamas way or the highway. Same as Bush. Im glad im a cow and not a sheep.
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.
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you know, people should be worried about the state of our Union.
they should have been worried for the last ten years.
what is the American dream?
your own house, your own car, enough money to retire and not have to eat cat food?
this has all been in serious jeopardy for awhile.
i hear people say we are at a major crossroads TODAY?
we passed that crossroads a long time ago.
when the median household income will not provide enough money to buy the basics involved in the American dream? it's already slipping away.
the median house price was over 200,000$ and the median income was under 50,000.
before you tell me that people need to work harder on education and their own upward job mobility? let me point out that the jobs that do not pay a living wage still have to be filled with somebody.
at the beginning pf 2008? the us govt debt was already above 30,000$ per person in the US.
the median household (not perperson) income was only about 45 thousand at that time...
since the average household is 2.5 people? the average per person income in the US was about 1/2 the US govt debt per person.
add to that the personal debt? at 8000$ per household for credit cards only? the country was well over 2 years in debt before the system collapsed....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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I'll leave the jokes about being 'high' and supporting Obama till later in his term, Big.
As for the current discussion, here is where I see the biggest issue...
Haste...haste...haste...
Obama (and Pelosi\Reid\Waxmen) has been in such a rush to 'fix' healthcare that they don't have anything to actually back up their claims that they AREN'T trying to gobble up private healthcare.
All the American people have is a 1000+ page bill from the House (not even finalized for a vote yet) that many members ADMIT to not having any intention of reading (see Conyers).
So, the people start reading the bill (thankfully not passed yet), and start coming up with questions about the 'legaleze' speak. For example, the provision we've posted before that seems to state that if your current private policy changes in any way you cannot keep it and must go to the public option. Without having '2 days and 2 lawyers' to explain it to you, you could resonably take it to mean that the government want to do away with private health care insurers. And that is one of more 'clear' sections of the bill.
If Obama really wanted to put these 'wild misrepresentations that bear no resemblance to anything that has actually been proposed', he needs to come out with an actual plan that HE endorses. One that he can get up to the mike and tell the people exactly what he wants to do and then let the PEOPLE say if that is what they want.
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And I don't even pretend to argue with the 'imagination of a few crazy people' line, Glass. Here's the rub, though...the administration has done nothing to truly counter the 'disinformation' other than to try and dismiss it out of hand. No references to parts of the actual proposed bill to aleviate the fears. No proposals to congress in either house to solidly state the direction it wants to go.
Let me try to make my point this way:
Some one comes out and claims on cable news that Obama is anti-feline. Yes, that's right. He hates cats!!!
The logical person asks: Where did he say that?
The reporter is unable to show anything to prove the claim, or there is actually information to the contrary(if he had several cats as pets) and for the most part the claim dies out. Some people might cling to the idea because it holds water with what they already believe but it gains little to no momentum by and large.
Now.
If both parts of congress had a proposed bill ready for vote, posted it online for ALL to see, read, understand and form an opinion on; then these pernicious rumors would have NO room to grow in. Anything stated as being in the bill could be verified or dismissed by looking at the actual bill.
Drafting a bill pretty much in the dead of the night and throwing it at the House of Reps with little to no time to actually read\understand\consult your constituents on is fertile rumor ground because none of our elected reps can even find the section the rumor is based on, let alone show that such is not supported by the bill.
By simply dismissing opposition/specific rumors as 'hate mongering anti-Obamaites' only lends credit to the rumor because it isn't being countered. That is what I think the Admin\Congress needs to do. Produce an actual hard bill and give people time to read it before they vote on it.
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but the people yelling aren't waiting. this really is democracy at work.
however, what i am "concerned" about is how many people appear to me to be just plain stupid.
take Palins' claim for instance:
Palin says in the America she knows, people won't have to "stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care."
She says such a system is "downright evil."
we already stand in front of a "panel" to have this determination made, it's called a job interview.
if you don't have job interviews to determine it? then you must have a nice bank account...
most of this stuff makes no sense on the surface.
i agree that we should have more information, however, when the white house asked for people to forward the rumors so theta they could respond to them? they were then accused of making a list...
said list being a "bad" thing to be on...
when the founding fathers created this Republic? they made it a Republic because of this sheer stupidity. they saw pure democracy as mob rule..
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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the only fear was perpetrated by the far rights parroting of the health industries fear campaign against reform...and obama has repeatedly responded accordingly.
i do recall people being jailed in NYC during the GOP convention and then being released because they had committed no crimes other than showing up to protest without a permit.
as for calling Bush a nazi? i remember that too...
i don't recall it being touted on TV by any of the media tho...
the criticism here is becoming what is journalism and what responsibiltiy do people have for being honest?
it's not illegal to lie in most circumstances.
but you have to wonder why people are making stuff up like this.
i mean people who are expected to know better.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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[tinfoilhat]Depending on what the list was used for, it WOULD be a bad thing to be on.[/tinfoilhat]
quote:when the founding fathers created this Republic? they made it a Republic because of this sheer stupidity. they saw pure democracy as mob rule..
The Rebublic was supposed to be somewhere between Mob Rule and and Oligarchy. If the Representatives aren't representing the true interests of their constituents; but simply substituting what they think is best, we're no longer 'of the people, by the people, and for the people.' And that's my biggest fear for where we're headed.
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The Rebublic was supposed to be somewhere between Mob Rule and and Oligarchy. If the Representatives aren't representing the true interests of their constituents; but simply substituting what they think is best, we're no longer 'of the people, by the people, and for the people.' And that's my biggest fear for where we're headed.
OK, Obama got elected on a platform of changing health care.
people knew he was runnng on that when they elected him. so caliming that health care reform goes against what the people want is again not a valid argument.
keep in mind that i am not convinced yet at all about whether we are getting the "right" bill or not.
i do think we should have people involved, and i do think people should be able to decide if it is a good bill on facts.
what i want to see is some serious dialogue.
that's not what we are getting here. what i see happening is a bunch of flatout lies being repeated over and over again. that's how you make lies into the "truth" as people know it.
i could care less if i was on a list, i was posting my concerns online in public about the Iraq war in early 2004, when very few others were.
i posted here several years ago that i see the US as bankrupt. we were actually worse off then i knew.
i was not worried about being on a list because i didn't lie.
that list? it's another paper tiger, the whitehouse wanted the rumors posted so they could address them.
how many separate and distinct crazy rumors are out there?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:people knew he was runnng on that when they elected him. so caliming that health care reform goes against what the people want is again not a valid argument.
I don't think that the majority of people that are voicing their concerns here are adamantly against ANY healthcare reform, Glass. I think that they are simply against what has been proposed as HOW to do it.
posted
but that's not what i am seeing on fox or the rest of the media.
what i see is people being irrational.
i already posted a perfect example of the irrationality in Plains post.
i see people that are obviously old enough to be on medicare yelling that they don't want govt run healthcare. it's crazy, and it's not a good sign of the state of the cognitive ability of the general populace IF you beleive they represent the general populace...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: The Rebublic was supposed to be somewhere between Mob Rule and and Oligarchy. If the Representatives aren't representing the true interests of their constituents; but simply substituting what they think is best, we're no longer 'of the people, by the people, and for the people.' And that's my biggest fear for where we're headed.
OK, Obama got elected on a platform of changing health care.
people knew he was runnng on that when they elected him. so caliming that health care reform goes against what the people want is again not a valid argument.
keep in mind that i am not convinced yet at all about whether we are getting the "right" bill or not.
i do think we should have people involved, and i do think people should be able to decide if it is a good bill on facts.
what i want to see is some serious dialogue.
that's not what we are getting here. what i see happening is a bunch of flatout lies being repeated over and over again. that's how you make lies into the "truth" as people know it.
i could care less if i was on a list, i was posting my concerns online in public about the Iraq war in early 2004, when very few others were.
i posted here several years ago that i see the US as bankrupt. we were actually worse off then i knew.
i was not worried about being on a list because i didn't lie.
that list? it's another paper tiger, the whitehouse wanted the rumors posted so they could address them.
how many separate and distinct crazy rumors are out there?
What was the percentage of the populace that voted for Obama? Unless it was more than 50% then there is no way to say health care reform is what the people want. A large chunk of the populace don't vote because they very well know it does not matter who is in office.. The end is always the same.
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: The Rebublic was supposed to be somewhere between Mob Rule and and Oligarchy. If the Representatives aren't representing the true interests of their constituents; but simply substituting what they think is best, we're no longer 'of the people, by the people, and for the people.' And that's my biggest fear for where we're headed.
OK, Obama got elected on a platform of changing health care.
people knew he was runnng on that when they elected him. so caliming that health care reform goes against what the people want is again not a valid argument.
keep in mind that i am not convinced yet at all about whether we are getting the "right" bill or not.
i do think we should have people involved, and i do think people should be able to decide if it is a good bill on facts.
what i want to see is some serious dialogue.
that's not what we are getting here. what i see happening is a bunch of flatout lies being repeated over and over again. that's how you make lies into the "truth" as people know it.
i could care less if i was on a list, i was posting my concerns online in public about the Iraq war in early 2004, when very few others were.
i posted here several years ago that i see the US as bankrupt. we were actually worse off then i knew.
i was not worried about being on a list because i didn't lie.
that list? it's another paper tiger, the whitehouse wanted the rumors posted so they could address them.
how many separate and distinct crazy rumors are out there?
What was the percentage of the populace that voted for Obama? Unless it was more than 50% then there is no way to say health care reform is what the people want. A large chunk of the populace don't vote because they very well know it does not matter who is in office.. The end is always the same.
There's sumpin' to that, all right. But those peeps don't then turn around and start attending town hall meetings shouting out utter BS, do you think?
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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What was the percentage of the populace that voted for Obama? Unless it was more than 50% then there is no way to say health care reform is what the people want. A large chunk of the populace don't vote because they very well know it does not matter who is in office.. The end is always the same.
whatchoo ben drankin'?
he got elected didn't he?
if you don't vote? you got nothing to complain about. cuz you proved you don't care.
the end is always the same?
sorry, i don't buy that.
the GOP has no interest in health care reform,
Obama knew what happened to the Clintons over health care reform and he took it on anyway...
what i've bene trying to point out here is that the opposition to health care reform is behaving like it failed kindergarten.
the media gets to show people behaving like little children that haven't gotten a nap or their milk and cookies and they love it...
as for your statement in the other thread about this country being done?
if it is, which i am not feeling a whole like disagreeing with you at this point? it was done before Obama took office, and the terrorists won.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Glass, what would YOU do then if you were Obama? I mean, the people for this reform I dont think they know what the "reform" really is. Not saying you DONT, but the message has been poorly delivered. Why isnt the bill online for Americans to read themselves? Why not let the American people vote and decide on it? Isnt it about what the people want?
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.
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what would i do? i don't want that job. i think you have to be crazy...
but i'll give it a try.
first off? i would begin by asking for a hellofalot more than i really want. first rule of negotiations.
keeping in mind how the last health care refom legislation was a ticking bomb?
i would go ahead and allow everybody to go nuts this time too, and make fools of themselves while i try to show a calm demeanor, but act somewhat distressed that i am not gettin' what i want.
i would also avoid like hell writing the bill myself (cough hillarycare cough cough) and try to get Congress to do it. when it stinks? i'd tell em, and send it back... the best thing is to have open lines of communication as they write it so that i don't have to send it back, it'll get written in a way that i like,
BUT
this bill has not been written yet, we have FIVE diffferent versions right now- 2 in the senate and three in the house..
after one or the other (house or senate) gets a single bill voted in? then the other side has to vote on it and/or their own ..
if we have two bills? on from the house and one form the senate? then they have a committee to shape one bill out of them and they both vote on it again...
i'd be happy if i could get something decent signed (as a beginning) in two years, but i'd never tell anybody they have two years to do it, cuz then it would take five, and that's too long...
the one thing i personally would push hard for is a federal govt run medical school that is free.
call it the Surgeon Generals Academy or something...
open to anyone with a bachelors -- first two years? VERY hard make or break classes. i mean very very hard. only the top 25% make it. this i how the Seals work too... altho they don't allow just anyone.
after the two years of very hard classes? then they begin real medical school training also on the taxpayers dime. when they graduate? they have to do family practice, or the VA or some form of medicine that we can't get enough doctors in for ten years to fulfill their obligation, and? they would be govt employees.
it would be similar to military academy model in some ways, and the ultimate goal would be to increase number of doctors practicing in general practice by 20 to 40%..
it would take ten years to implement and graduate the first doctors, so it's not a quick fix, but it should be a good long term fix...
most doctors graduate 100's of thousands in debt.. govt employed doctors won't be sued.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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If I am given two effin crooks to vote for and I vote for neither then it is not my m**#$^F(**&$ fault when the **** hits the fan... It will be the fault of A - The Elected crooks and their puppetmasters B - The raging morons who voted them into office. Plain and simple...
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I generally like your posts when you have something worthwhile to say but why are you wasting space here? You have already said you don't want nothing to do with it.
So go stand in the corner, hold you breath, and have nothing to do with it until someone notices and gives you a cookie... but right now us adults are talking.
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Nah, I'd never be able to type intelligible words if I were high SF. I laugh too much to concentrate on anything.
How can the pres give specifics when there aren't any yet SF? Did you hear specifics about the Chevy Volt before it was unveiled the other day? When the contractor came over to discuss renovating your bathroom did he come with a parts and labor breakdown?
No...cuz it wasn't created yet.
First conservatives have railed that things are moving too fast and when the Pres relents on his timetable to give folks the time they cried out for, now they complain there are no specifics.
Meanwhile when we should be using this Fall break to have meaningful discussion of exactly what we DO and Do NOT want in the final bill (which is what those who are holding town hall meetings during their vacations are trying to do) conservative spin doctors have everybody so busy putting out phantom fires with the formless specters of death panels and benefit loss that meaningful discussion becomes near impossible.
The tactic may be a great stalling tactic but it won't keep reform from going through and it is what will keep the republican party weak going into 2010 and 2012. Eventually lies get exposed and no one, not even conservative cows likes being lied to repeatedly.
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quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: If I am given two effin crooks to vote for and I vote for neither then it is not my m**#$^F(**&$ fault when the **** hits the fan... It will be the fault of A - The Elected crooks and their puppetmasters B - The raging morons who voted them into office. Plain and simple...
you're right, i'm sorry, we need a better way to select who will run for office.
let's have them fight with swords...
i dunno what to tell you. you are correct, they are all crooks.
they have thick skin, and they have to have families that keep low profiles...
society has created a rather odd set of requirements for how we pick politicians...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:How can the pres give specifics when there aren't any yet SF?
...
No...cuz it wasn't created yet.
And that's why he's losing traction on this, Big. He has literally nothing to show the American people other than pretty promises that 'nobody's gonna kill your grandma.'
Now, bear with me a moment and look at this as though he weren't the 'chosen one who cometh to bring us from the darkness into light.'
He says that he isn't for rationing healthcare. He says that he doesn't want to take away anyone's private healthcare plans if they like them. He says that the government doesn't want a say in your healthcare decisions. He says alot of nice things.
But...
Many people who have objectively (supposedly) looked at the current incarnation of the House's healthcare bill forsee just the opposite in all of these cases. They are looking at the ONLY concrete piece of information available. Not promises, not hopeful plans; just the actually proposed plan.
Some of those spouting misinformed rumors have agendas. Given. But some of the critics of the proposed legislation aren't simply right-wing parrots trying to smear Obama. They are raising valid (in their opinions) objections to the current bill.
Others, both rumor mongers and honest critics, have many nightmare scenarios to put before the american people from other 'government-run' systems. While these may or may not be indicative of the systems in question, they have the impact needed to make people question the effectiveness of similar plans here.
They HAVE something to show to support their positions against the plan.
Obama doesn't.
Now...(sorry for the long windedness)...
quote:First conservatives have railed that things are moving too fast and when the Pres relents on his timetable to give folks the time they cried out for, now they complain there are no specifics.
Ok, I have to throw the B.S. flag, Big. Let's be honest with ourselves on this one. Obama didn't relent on any timetable out of the desire to have meaningful discussion about concerns. He was simply unable to force it through before anyone could read anything and form on opinion. The stalling of the Repubs (granted not out of the goodness of their hearts) is the only reason we're even able to have a discussion before it got passed and signed.
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and it is what will keep the republican party weak going into 2010 and 2012.
don't tell that the fox friends, they have convinced themselves that this is Obama's waterloo.
and that's all that matter to them anymore.
i am reminded of soldiers with latrines three feet from their tents tho.
something will pass. what it looks like is being shaped right now.
by the people. all of this yelling and screaming allows BIG BUSINESS to have greater influence, since the complaining has become the sound of an angry hornets nest. divide and conquer.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:The tactic may be a great stalling tactic but it won't keep reform from going through and it is what will keep the republican party weak going into 2010 and 2012. Eventually lies get exposed and no one, not even conservative cows likes being lied to repeatedly.
2012 is too far out to even hazard a guess, but I will weigh in on my prediction for 2010.
IF the Dems\Obama write and pass a good reform bill then I think they will hold their majority in both houses. By 'good' I mean a clearly written bill that can be 'sold' to the american people instead of rammed down their throats in the dark of the night.
If, however, they fail to pass anything; or force through a bill that can be 'spun' as statist or rationed healthcare it will kill them in 2010. I'm talking 10+ seats in the Senate and a proportional amount in the House.
Just my unsupported opinion\prediction.
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: [QUOTE]Ok, I have to throw the B.S. flag, Big. Let's be honest with ourselves on this one. Obama didn't relent on any timetable out of the desire to have meaningful discussion about concerns. He was simply unable to force it through before anyone could read anything and form on opinion. The stalling of the Repubs (granted not out of the goodness of their hearts) is the only reason we're even able to have a discussion before it got passed and signed.
B.S. Flag yourself SF. If Obama wanted to ramrod his personal agenda and force Universal Healthcare on America, guess what??? He's got the filibuster-proof majorities in both halls to do it. If that were his goal then a bill would already be signed into law by now.
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Could you give me an example of these objective people whom you have placed so much of your faith in that you are willing to forgo reading the paper yourself in exchange for their opinions SF?
Or are you just spouting
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Feel free to be long winded SF. I will read it-If in bits and pieces.
Please understand if I come across heated that I want Specifics 'From You' in regards to who it is that is saying there are dangers to beware from within the health plan. I want to know your sources because quite frankly, there ain't many within your party that are credible anymore.
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These morons that are yelling so louad at the town halls don't knbow what to call Obama A Fascist or Marxist
Police detain town hall protester carrying ‘Death to Obama’ sign. The AP reports that the Secret Service “is investigating a man who authorities said held a sign reading ‘Death to Obama’ outside a town hall meeting” held by Sen. Ben Cardin (D-MD). yesterday. The protester’s sign also declared, “Death to Michelle and her two stupid kids.” The detention of the unidentified, 51-year-old man by local police comes on the heels of two Democratic members of Congress reporting that they received faxes to their offices featuring pictures of Obama accompanied by the phrase, “Death to All Marxists! Foreign and Domestic!”
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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