quote:Originally posted by rounder1: If that happens....the best and the brightest will focus their interests elsewhere because it will cease to be as profitable to cure cancer, aids, alzheimers, herpes, syphilus, .........to infinity.
They're attention will wander elsewhere eh? Kinda like big Pharma's has???
quote: But while the rhetoric is stirring, it has very little to do with reality. First, research and development (R&D) is a relatively small part of the budgets of the big drug companies—dwarfed by their vast expenditures on marketing and administration, and smaller even than profits.
Second, the pharmaceutical industry is not especially innovative. As hard as it is to believe, only a handful of truly important drugs have been brought to market in recent years, and they were mostly based on taxpayer-funded research at academic institutions, small biotechnology companies, or the National Institutes of Health (NIH). The great majority of "new" drugs are not new at all but merely variations of older drugs already on the market.
Third, the industry is hardly a model of American free enterprise. To be sure, it is free to decide which drugs to develop (me-too drugs instead of innovative ones, for instance), and it is free to price them as high as the traffic will bear, but it is utterly dependent on government-granted monopolies—in the form of patents and Food and Drug Administration (FDA)–approved exclusive marketing rights. If it is not particularly innovative in discovering new drugs, it is highly innovative—and aggressive—in dreaming up ways to extend its monopoly rights.
I appreciate you taking the time to pull this article; but, there is no way that I am buying it.
We are all members of this forum because we are interested in stocks.....(making money). Drug companies are no different. I doubt that a single one of them is in the business for the "betterment of mankind." If they spend the bulk of their budgets marketing an already successful drug.....cant say that I blame them.
My argument is this......cause they are in the business due to their greed.....they will work harder than a civil servant (that is just trying to do right by his fellow man).
The two greatest motivators will always be "beliefs and greed".......
If you don't believe that.....look at the world today.....societies are clashing and would kill each other if they could.....simply because they view the other as being at the opposite end of the spectrum that I just defined.
I will take the greedy insurance company.
Cause I know there motivation is to serve themselves and that forces them to compete.....therefore they are compelled to out work the other greedy ba$tards to give me just a tiny bit more.
-------------------- "The greatest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." (WC)
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quote:Originally posted by T e x: Is this your answer to my "burden" question?
quote:I require intensive medical treatment.....that comes at a premium cost......why should you have to pay for it.
cuz if it is, I can answer that, too...
Yes Tex that is my response to your question.....but I should clarify so that I do not mis-represent.
I, personally, do not require that level of medical care. I started down a hypothetical road and got side tracked by my passion on the subject.
In the interest of fair debate.....you should know that I am a very heathy 30 year old.
Upon reading your reply......I realized that I had given a false impression that could have played towards a position that I am fortunate enough not to have.
My apologies.
-------------------- "The greatest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." (WC)
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posted
Before its patent ran out, for example, the price of Schering-Plough's top-selling allergy pill, Claritin, was raised thirteen times over five years, for a cumulative increase of more than 50 percent—over four times the rate of general inflation.
-same article-
Sometimes greed needs to be contained by more than just competition. Especially when they are given patents preventing competition from occurring.
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posted
And, I already know folks that are rich that are putting money into retirement and depleting all souces of income cause better to live off of daddy BaMA THEN TOO WORK and pay for all others' - better to get it for free - let dad Bama pay for my house, food, education and health and then why should I work? Maybe, Ill work a little to have the big screen tv and phone but Uncle Sam can do thw rest -
What is happening is anti americn - I am for FREEDOM no welfare and govt to deciode all -
Freedom founded this country and made it great it dont take a village to care for us - it may take a village when dad runs off but not when folks are responsible and want to be free-
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Glass, Yeah bad drugs have come to the market. U appear to be a research guru so I am not wanting to see if you can dig up more bad than I can good. However, if you applied your researching talents equally to both.....I bet you would find more good. And who says that government run H.C. stops the bad from making it to the market......The FDA is a government agency......all the prior bad drugs were approved by them.
B.F. I love Claritin. Allergies have kicked my a$$ for the last decade. They made a profit off of it. They should have......cause I remember when the best you could get was sudefed.......great for staying up all night partying.....or for a 5k race.....not much for allergy/sinus relief. Ask this.....if they had not had the option of attaining a patent.....would it have been developed? Prolly not....it would not have been financially reasonable to pursue.
-------------------- "The greatest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." (WC)
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posted
In socialissm , motivation and incentive is killed - creativity is gone and atrophy is present -
Most folks rather wait in line or flee than to pay for all lazy butts -
Like I said, freedom is why my ancestors came to this country not socialsim - not govt run health, education and all else - I doubt it will go thru cause no matter how bad Bush was - who wants to give govt conrol of most of how we live and die?
Who the hell is Obama even to consider it? He is a control freak - very arrogant and insecure cause daddy left him - it may be mean but it is true - those that are most insecure are most arrogant and want control - if his plan is so good - he and all of govt workers should have it===
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i would bet you that i can show that every drug brought to market in the last forty years was subsidized by your govt at some level or another.
claritin is a decent drug since it has few side effects, but it can hardly be counted to saving lives.
hre's a good example of how complicated the drug co's legal strategies become with most of their drugs:
Schering-Plough goes to court to protect loratadine patent Drug Store News, Feb 18, 2002
KENILWORTH, N.J. -- Schering-Plough announced Jan. 31 that it has filed separate suits against Johnson & Johnson's McNeil Consumer Healthcare and American Home Products' Whitehall-Robins Healthcare for an alleged patent infringement on the company's prescription loratadine product, Claritin. According to Schering-Plough, the suits "seek to prevent McNeil and Whitehall from manufacturing, using, selling or otherwise making a loratadine product until after the expiration of the metabolite patent [desloratadine]." Desloratadine is listed as the active ingredient in Clarinex, a prescription-only allergy remedy that is expected to be Claritin's successor.
posted
Commodities markets fluctuate not to mention the environmental factors that affect growing paterns. Subsidies for crops are meant to provide a base so there are some protections for small farmers who bet their livelihoods every time they plant their fields.
Patents are supposed to safeguard intellectual properties so that someone else can't take your hard-earned research and drive you out of your own market.
Problem is these companies aren't the ones doing the hard work and they are abusing the patent protections to price gouge the public. America pays the most of any industrialized nation for pharmaceutical drugs and that is provable and preventable.
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quote:Originally posted by T e x: Is this your answer to my "burden" question?
quote:I require intensive medical treatment.....that comes at a premium cost......why should you have to pay for it.
cuz if it is, I can answer that, too...
Yes Tex that is my response to your question.....but I should clarify so that I do not mis-represent.
I, personally, do not require that level of medical care. I started down a hypothetical road and got side tracked by my passion on the subject.
In the interest of fair debate.....you should know that I am a very heathy 30 year old.
Upon reading your reply......I realized that I had given a false impression that could have played towards a position that I am fortunate enough not to have.
My apologies.
no problem...
sometimes I merely help with the thought process
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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posted
oh sorry pagan that after 13 hours of working for myself I miss spelled a word. Do you have anything of substance to add? oh what are you another party basher instead of some one for real people! ----------------------------
Rounder... great read. For myself, unless ABSOLUTELY nessacery I could and would never ask anyone to pay for me. Which I have had to do in the past because of a very bad injury. Yes some people need the help, but so many are capable and just lazy because the gov takes care of them. -------------------------------
TEX... I believe the burden is financial.
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posted
I had an appointment with my primary care doctor regarding a flair up of a chronic condition two weeks ago. My purpose was not to get his opinion but to get his referral. He also ordered an ultrasound to discount other more serious problems. One week ago I met with the specialist who has ordered another round of physical therapy and an new batch of equipment once the therapy is completed. To discount different more serious problems she ordered a CT scan.
A few days ago I had a CT scan and got the results yesterday. None of the problems they were looking for but it seems I have a 1 centimeter spot that is most likely nothing more than a polyp but still needs checking so now my physical therapy sessions are on hold until after I see a different specialist and do whatever he makes me do.
The point of this isn't to tell you about my medical history (and by the way except for one issue I am a healthy full-time working no restrictions no disabilities adult who generally goes to the doc about once a year).
The point is that I went in for a flair up of something I know well but if I didn't have insurance I would have already blown through more than a grand and I haven't even finished the diagnostic stage yet. Depending on the hoops the third doctor puts me through this could end up totaling more than 3-4k easy. And that is for something well documented in my medical history along with one unexpected item.
You young'uns (I'm not THAT much older than you) who have never seen the bottom line of a hospital stay before can talk breezy about paying your own way all you like but I know full well where I and my wife would be if I didn't have good insurance.
NYC would'a given me a travel voucher years ago.
There is a reason why 60% of all bankruptcies are tied to medical bills.
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"Specter was shouted down when he said that lawmakers divide up the bills into sections and have their staffs read portions because, "We have to make judgments very fast."
posted
Bottom line....I only want a government health care plan that those who write the plan, paticipate in.
Don't tell me what kind of insurance I'll be receiving and then have our President and congress on another plan. A true vote for a health care plan is by someone who will be living with it.
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If that happens....the best and the brightest will focus their interests elsewhere because it will cease to be as profitable to cure cancer, aids, alzheimers, herpes, syphilus, .........to infinity.
It is never profitable to " CURE " any sickness. What is a money maker is finding a way for people to live with it lol
-------------------- You never really grow up you just learn how to act in public.
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posted
well what do you know I agree with you lock. Don't throw a bone to the vast population while you eat the new yorks and say look what I have done for everybody.
I will say this that is the way it will most likley happen from any of our leaders.
I do know one thing our health does need reform it is getting to the point that our business cannot compete on a world market 50 million people are uninsured and the tax payer does wind up in the end paying for them and we rank 37 in the world as far as a nation is evalueated for health care some third world countries rate higher than us.
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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posted
as far as pay I don't think anybody but the ultra rich can afford paying for health care by themselves.
The last outpatient severice I had done was a one hour surgery to a nasal passage the bill was $9800.that does not include doctors visits drugs or anything elese. that was 2002 I bet it is more today.Glad I had insureance to cover it
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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quote:Originally posted by poorman: Originally posted by rounder1:
If that happens....the best and the brightest will focus their interests elsewhere because it will cease to be as profitable to cure cancer, aids, alzheimers, herpes, syphilus, .........to infinity.
It is never profitable to " CURE " any sickness. What is a money maker is finding a way for people to live with it lol
absolutely correct
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Bottom line....I only want a government health care plan that those who write the plan, paticipate in.
Don't tell me what kind of insurance I'll be receiving and then have our President and congress on another plan. A true vote for a health care plan is by someone who will be living with it.
that sounds like single payer to me lock, i don't want single payer.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Bottom line....I only want a government health care plan that those who write the plan, paticipate in.
Don't tell me what kind of insurance I'll be receiving and then have our President and congress on another plan. A true vote for a health care plan is by someone who will be living with it.
that sounds like single payer to me lock, i don't want single payer.
I don't either but if that's the way this is headed lets make sure everyone has the same deal.
-------------------- Let's Go METS!!!
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posted
i don't think that's the way this is headed.
IMO there's more mythology than fact floating around the media right now.
i've gotten decnt care out of the VA when i used it, but i had to fight for it.
i found it better than kaiser permanente, and easier to find people in the VA system that would get things done right for me in the VA sytem. at kaiser? the policy was being followed uniformly whereas in the VA, for some reason, the first person you would see tended to be a jerk (the PA) and once you got past them? things got better.
physicians assistants who tended to be the first line of care were the worst. Doctors in the VA system tended to be just as good and treated me just as well as doctor i get on insurance, but you don't see them first.
the PA's tended to be monsters.
in the US we have only one doctor pr 400 and some patients where theres about 1 doctor per 300 in countries that have single payer and or other highly socialised medical plans.
we need more family practice doctors in the US, and fewer specialists.i like the doctor i have now, and i think most people do.
the doctors would be able to work under less stress, and give better care to each of thier patients and probably make the same money if we could cut insurance/billing costs.
as has been observed by many our health is priceless.
corporate America is looking at their health care costs as competitive hindrance.
Obama is getting jammed up by the people who have no interest in seeing anything fixed simply because they see it as a way to score political points.
i've never been on medicare, and don't have any direct expereince with it. but getting medicare passedw as just as hard as this has been (literally, it took several presidents) and i don't hear too many people complaining.
i think we should get something passed and it will probably take a few tries to get it right.
the US spends about double per person on healthcare than any of the other industrialised nations. there is no evidence that we are getting more for our money either.
the last time i was at the doctors offcie which has 4 doctors practicing in one building? i saw 5 or six drug reps wandering around, i see that many or more every time. there's another place we could save alot of money.
the drug co's spend much more on advertising than they do on research. sure it creates alot of important jobs, but those 5 dollar pills to us cost a penny to make and deliver in most cases
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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posted
Its going to be tough and the Government is doing all thyat it can
they have held and stopped a banking crisis
Saved what they could of the auto industry and still working on it
But to get things going again purchasing power is what is needed and I don't think even the government can stop the job loss and be able to create the milions of jobs necessary. Don't forgetwe have had 40 years of sending our jobs snd somtimes whole industries overseas. I hope we can do it. IMHO it will be close
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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posted
I sincerely hope that your 'half-full' viewpoint is right, Ray. I see it a little more cynically.
Its going to be tough and the Government is doing all thyat it can
All that it can to consolidate power...
they have held and stopped a banking crisis
Or they over-stated the crisis and then bought their way into more influence in the banking sector..
Saved what they could of the auto industry and still working on it
Or, yet again, bought their way into management of the auto industry and gave it to the unions that got Obama elected.
But to get things going again purchasing power is what is needed
No, I think what is needed is to change our economy from a consumption based economy to a production based economy. You have to produce more than you consume to prosper.
and I don't think even the government can stop the job loss and be able to create the milions of jobs necessary.
I don't think it's their place to create jobs, Ray. It's their job to encourage the private sector to create jobs. That's why we're still losing them.
Don't forgetwe have had 40 years of sending our jobs snd somtimes whole industries overseas.
Agreed, that is part of the problem, but I think it's a symptom of a bigger issue.
I hope we can do it. IMHO it will be close
Until the feds remember that it's their job to serve and protect 'we the people' instead of line their pockets and get re-elected I don't think we even have a chance.
And I'm not usually a 'half-empty' guy.
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posted
Or they over-stated the crisis and then bought their way into more influence in the banking sector..
you know i listen to fox and other conservative pundits regularly and i hear this all the time.
ask Larry Kudlow, he speaks freely about it, we collapsed. the people in the markets that didn't want govt bailouts wanted to buy Capital assets for pennies on the dollar. i mean pennies, as in under 10 cents and i mean it literally.
there is noone anywhere in the business of economics that even remotely suggests that we did not collapse.
the only arguments are whether it is "good" to bailout, or better to allow the system to fold and rebuild.
people now claiming that it was a trumped up power grab are not informed or just like to make chit up as they go.
the millions of home foreclosures are very real.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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posted
I don't think it's their place to create jobs, Ray. It's their job to encourage the private sector to create jobs. That's why we're still losing them.
then we have to ban imports.
because every job we lose to production is not made up by "middleman" jobs.
yet thats called protectionism?
Don't forgetwe have had 40 years of sending our jobs snd sometimes whole industries overseas.
Agreed, that is part of the problem, but I think it's a symptom of a bigger issue.
the bigger issue is that Wall St wants to make 15% per year ROI overseas instead of 7.5% here.
the other issue is that large companies destroy their competition using the govt. they always have always will
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:you know i listen to fox and other conservative pundits regularly and i hear this all the time.
You listen to Fox?!?!? Then you're obviously brainwashed and can't be taken seriously.
quote:there is noone anywhere in the business of economics that even remotely suggests that we did not collapse.
the only arguments are whether it is "good" to bailout, or better to allow the system to fold and rebuild.
Collapse is a relative term, Glass. How far and what the consequences would have been had we not done the bail outs will never be known outside of the realm of speculation.
That being said, as I recall, the threats at the time were that should the stimulus package not be passed, we would have had mass riots, runs on the banks, and martial law in the U.S. It is odd to me that if it was that serious, less than 10% of the money that was allocated seems to have stemmed the tide of global chaos...since that's all that has been spent and here we are without martial law...so far.
quote:the millions of home foreclosures are very real.
And inevitable. You cannot continue to loan money to people that have no realistic chance to make their payments under the conditions of the mortgage and not expect a housing collapse.
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quote:you know i listen to fox and other conservative pundits regularly and i hear this all the time.
You listen to Fox?!?!? Then you're obviously brainwashed and can't be taken seriously.
quote:there is noone anywhere in the business of economics that even remotely suggests that we did not collapse.
the only arguments are whether it is "good" to bailout, or better to allow the system to fold and rebuild.
Collapse is a relative term, Glass. How far and what the consequences would have been had we not done the bail outs will never be known outside of the realm of speculation.
That being said, as I recall, the threats at the time were that should the stimulus package not be passed, we would have had mass riots, runs on the banks, and martial law in the U.S. It is odd to me that if it was that serious, less than 10% of the money that was allocated seems to have stemmed the tide of global chaos...since that's all that has been spent and here we are without martial law...so far.
quote:the millions of home foreclosures are very real.
And inevitable. You cannot continue to loan money to people that have no realistic chance to make their payments under the conditions of the mortgage and not expect a housing collapse.
I never read that anywhere. Can you post a link to a reputable news source that said there would be martial law? TIA
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