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Author Topic: Nuclear War??? NKorea threatens to harm US if attacked
Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by IWISHIHAD:


You know if we flex our muscles and end up going to war again, we better send a lot of body bags.

We have to be real careful when we flex our muscles a lot, they can get over strained.

Exactly. Mooman seems to forget there are consequences for acting irrationally and prematurely. He is always willing to go for the gun first and think later. Iraq was a mistake and he knows it and it cost alot of american lives that didn't need to be there in the first place. So could it be the same if we go gungho on NK as well.

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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NR
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THE URGENT NEED TO RECONSIDER PREVAILING ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT RUSSIA AND CHINA
(1)In the Political arena:

The failure of US Policymakers to comprehend the veiled aggressiveness and hostility towards the United States inherent in Sino-Russian strategy and the belief that the political and economic reforms in Russia and the partial introduction of capitalism in China have foreshadowed these countries' development into real democracies, have eroded the effectiveness of US policies in the foreign affairs, defence, intelligence and counter-intelligence fields. US Policymakers have recklessly accepted the premise the Russia and China are no longer their enemies, but are rather potential allies and partners fully deserving of US support. Only countries like Iran, Iraq and North Korea - which (ironically, in this context) work secretly with Russia and China - are still considered potential adversaries.

A particularly alarming indication of the extent to which US foreign policy has become degraded is Washington's willingness to consider the admission of Russia and other former Warsaw Pact countries into NATO - an alliance which provided the United States and its allies with effective protection from these countries for many years. This policy jeopardizes the security of the United States, gravely threatens the security of Western Europe, and undermines the United States' role as the leader of the developed world.

US Policymakers should urgently re-examine their assumptions about the 'progress' of Russia and China 'towards democracy'. They should take account of Sino-Russian strategy and should recognize that the long-term strategic, political and economic threat comes from a Sino-Russian axis and associated participants like North Korea, Iran, Iraq and Syria. The Russian and Chinese leaders are still committed to their objective of world domination and believe that, disguised as 'democrats', in accordance with Leninist teaching, they will be able to achieve it.

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One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example.

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CashCowMoo
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quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:
Originally posted by IWISHIHAD:


You know if we flex our muscles and end up going to war again, we better send a lot of body bags.

We have to be real careful when we flex our muscles a lot, they can get over strained.

Exactly. Mooman seems to forget there are consequences for acting irrationally and prematurely. He is always willing to go for the gun first and think later. Iraq was a mistake and he knows it and it cost alot of american lives that didn't need to be there in the first place. So could it be the same if we go gungho on NK as well.
Oh geez Mach, NK is much more dangerous than Iraq. Iraq wasnt detonating nukes, shooting missles, threatening nuclear annihilation, on and on and on.

None of you get what im saying. With you its either or. Either we become pacifists, or nothing at all. I do know this, if I ruled a country, and YOU ruled a country I would pick on you all day long and threaten you....because you wouldnt do a damn thing about it. Then, when you thought my threats were another falsehood id strike you when you would least expect it.

Thats how the globe operates. Always has, always will. Hippie dream worlds of peace will never happen as good as that sounds. Its just the way it is. Dont believe me? Go to Congo, Somalia, the Korean DMZ, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir, Colombia, Honduras, Cuba, Angola, Burma, the west bank and Palestine, Chechnya, Uganda, Mexican border towns on the other side of Texas and Arizona, and a whole list not yet covered.

We arent even talking about the conflicts that will erupt in the future. You think Obama will wave his magic wand and cure all? It's a cut throat world out there, and even in some places within our own nation such as urban ghettos and inner city projects.

Well you are right in me believing Iraq was a mistake. Then again, I dont feel as bad as you do about it. There was some sick shi* going on over there under Saddam....some really sick shi*. I did realize how much we need to focus on American oil and not oil from that way.

There is ANOTHER leftist either or situation. They want clean energy now, but dont want oil at all. You have to have oil for another generation. This transfer to solar and wind takes a long time and a lot of money. While we do that lets open up land for production and get off the Saudi crack. The Venezuelan crack, and others.

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jordanreed
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geez, cow...stop living in the past...there are no hippies anymore!


you seem to think you're the only one who has been in a war...


many of us, here, have fought in nam...lets not name names...it was not a good situation..anyway you look at it!we flexed our muscle there and in Iraq!..wow, we really showed them, huh?...we want to avoid war again..and so does N.K. its the last thing they want. and make no mistake..obama is not sitting idly by twiddling his thumbs!..at this point, diplomacy is the answer (of course)...we dont need to "flex our muscle"..as you advocate. Thats insane. speaking of insane,,why not post that insane pic of you caressing your gun?..I need a good laugh...

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jordan

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thinkmoney
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We may want to avoid war and Obama is prolly working behind the scenes. However, I am not as sure that NK wants to avoid war.
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CashCowMoo
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanreed:
geez, cow...stop living in the past...there are no hippies anymore!


you seem to think you're the only one who has been in a war...


many of us, here, have fought in nam...lets not name names...it was not a good situation..anyway you look at it!we flexed our muscle there and in Iraq!..wow, we really showed them, huh?...we want to avoid war again..and so does N.K. its the last thing they want. and make no mistake..obama is not sitting idly by twiddling his thumbs!..at this point, diplomacy is the answer (of course)...we dont need to "flex our muscle"..as you advocate. Thats insane. speaking of insane,,why not post that insane pic of you caressing your gun?..I need a good laugh...

Time will tell who was right and who wasnt. By the way, speaking of Obama, has anyone seen Tony Rezko around lately? lmao


I know im not the only one thats been bent over by Uncle Sam, and I have no idea what picture you are talking about "caressing" my weapon. I did find a picture with some Allstocks OT forum members!

http://www.toonpool.com/user/1292/files/sheep_surround_shepherd_obama_350475.jpg

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CashCowMoo
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Here you go, sniff around this site and let me know how well you think diplomacy works with everyone.


http://www.siteintelgroup.org/

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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jordanreed
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it might work with you, too!..even tho you love war and want to flex your muscle(lol), I bet obama could talk, even you, down.

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jordan

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CashCowMoo
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanreed:
it might work with you, too!..even tho you love war and want to flex your muscle(lol), I bet obama could talk, even you, down.

I dont love war, where do you come up with this stuff. If we were all animals, natural selection would have you two very early on.
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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
Oh geez Mach, NK is much more dangerous than Iraq. Iraq wasnt detonating nukes, shooting missles, threatening nuclear annihilation, on and on and on.

Geez, isn't that what Bush said about Iraq pretty much? WMD's? [Roll Eyes] But anyways you haven't read or listened to Glass about NK. This is no proof NK has such weapons and were not going to attack hastingly like we did Iraq without such proof.

quote:
I do know this, if I ruled a country, and YOU ruled a country I would pick on you all day long and threaten you....because you wouldnt do a damn thing about it. Then, when you thought my threats were another falsehood id strike you when you would least expect it.
Scary thought you ruling a country [Were Down] But that is where you would lose because that is no strategy at all and is how you would lose. Military strategy obviously is not your forte. NK's army may be the 4th largest standing army in the world but they know they cannot take us on. Our military is much much better then in the 1950's and Kim Jong knows it. All we would have to do is cut off NK's food and other supplies and his army would collapse from starvation etc. like the rest of the country already is.

quote:
Go to Congo, Somalia, the Korean DMZ, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir, Colombia, Honduras, Cuba, Angola, Burma, the west bank and Palestine, Chechnya, Uganda, Mexican border towns on the other side of Texas and Arizona, and a whole list not yet covered.
Most of those countries you named are revolutions and such and not countries attacking other countries.

Afghanistan - Taliban and currrent Afghanis in power fighting each other
Honduras - right and left fighting each other
Colombia - Their gov't is fighting FARC and other rebel groups
Mexican border towns - Gov't vs Drug Traffickers etc. etc.

quote:
You think Obama will wave his magic wand and cure all?
Do you think military action cures all?

quote:
Well you are right in me believing Iraq was a mistake. Then again, I dont feel as bad as you do about it.
You should. I am sure you lost buddies who didn't deserve to die or be there to begin with because of Bush.
quote:
There was some sick shi* going on over there under Saddam....some really sick shi*.
There is s*ck sh*t all over the world it still isn't our job to get involved in those places. If anything we should of been involved in places like Rwanda, Darfur, African conflicts more so then Iraq if we really cared about "s*ck sh*t".
quote:
I did realize how much we need to focus on American oil and not oil from that way.
I agree with you if done right and not hazardly.

quote:
There is ANOTHER leftist either or situation. They want clean energy now, but dont want oil at all.
Don't you think that is a good idea?No Oil so we would never ever have to rely on the Middle East ever again should oil become a shortage on our lands in the future? We stop relying on Oil and you will see the Middle East lose it's riches and power they hold over the rest of the world as well as Russia and their oil.
quote:
You have to have oil for another generation.
Who says?
quote:
This transfer to solar and wind takes a long time and a lot of money. While we do that lets open up land for production and get off the Saudi crack. The Venezuelan crack, and others.
Agreed for once.

--------------------
Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
I dont love war, where do you come up with this stuff. If we were all animals, natural selection would have you two very early on.

The fact that your solution to everything is always military first. As for natural selection, it doesn't necessarily mean brawn. The one with the better brain who can outwit his opponent would have my vote in who wins something much like a game of chess.

--------------------
Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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IWISHIHAD
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Quote CashCooMoo:

"I dont love war, where do you come up with this stuff. If we were all animals, natural selection would have you two very early on."

_________________________________________________

You didn't like it at all from what i remember, of course i am not sure how many would.

In fact i think you were ticked that they were sending your unit back, if i remember correctly.

That's why i am surprised you suggest going to war so easily.

I still think we will be on the ground in North Korea if we flex very much.

Not sure where we get more troops or the money.

Maybe that's the real plan by getting us involved in wars all over the world.

Haven't seen one yet that we don't end up on the ground (infantry) one way or the other.


-

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raybond
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A quote from one of America's greatest warriors


General William T. Sherman


War is Hell.
This quote originates from his address to the graduating class of the Michigan Military Academy (19 June 1879); but slightly varying accounts of this speech have been published:
I’ve been where you are now and I know just how you feel. It’s entirely natural that there should beat in the breast of every one of you a hope and desire that some day you can use the skill you have acquired here.
Suppress it! You don’t know the horrible aspects of war. I’ve been through two wars and I know. I’ve seen cities and homes in ashes. I’ve seen thousands of men lying on the ground, their dead faces looking up at the skies. I tell you, war is Hell!
As quoted from accounts by Dr. Charles O. Brown in the Battle Creek Enquirer and News (18 November 1933)

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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raybond
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quote from cashcow

I dont love war, where do you come up with this stuff. If we were all animals, natural selection would have you two very early on.
-------------------------------------------------

How dare you compare us to animals and asume that we are afraid to fight and protect ourselves. History has shown time and time again that the best soldiers come frome people that seek peace as the first option don't sound off from the kool-aide that the right has gave you to drink.

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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CashCowMoo
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lmao

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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CashCowMoo
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Four more missles fired. Keep being passive im sure one day North Korea will "accept the olive branch" lmao


North Korea ups tension with short-range missiles 02 Jul 2009 14:57:59 GMT
Source: Reuters
(For complete coverage click [ID:nSP88208]

* North Korea test fires four short-range missiles

* Japan PM says "provocative act" not helpful

* Pentagon says North Korea move "not unexpected"

* U.S. cracks down on North Korea's arms trade

* China's North Korea envoy to visit key partners

By Jack Kim and Miyoung Kim

SEOUL, July 2 (Reuters) - North Korea test-fired four short-range missiles on Thursday, further stoking tension in the region that was already high due to Pyongyang's nuclear test and threats to boost its nuclear arsenal in response to UN sanctions.

The North, which often fires short-range missiles as part of military drills and usually times the launches for periods of diplomatic friction, was hit with UN sanctions following its May 25 nuclear test.

The salvo began with two surface-to-ship missiles fired off North Korea's east coast between 5:20 p.m and 6 p.m. (0820-0900 GMT) that flew about 100 km (60 miles) and splashed into the sea, a South Korean defence official said.

A third short-range missile was fired around two hours later, the defence ministry said, and South Korea's Yonhap news agency, citing officials in Seoul, later said a fourth had been fired.

North Korea last month warned shipping to keep away from a maritime zone extending 110 km off its east coast between June 25 and July 10, saying it was conducting a military drill.

"This activity is not unexpected," said U.S. Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman.

"North Korea continues to develop and pursue missile technologies and the United States continues to remain concerned about not only their missile activities but their proliferation activities and their nuclear programme."

A South Korean daily said that the secretive North may also test fire mid-range missiles, viewed by the South, the United States and others as a more serious act, in a matter of days.

Japan, a party to currently suspended six-nation talks aimed at coaxing the isolated North to give up its nuclear programme in return for aid and greater diplomatic recognition, was quick to condemn Pyongyang's latest action.

"We have often warned that such a provocative act is not beneficial for North Korea's national interest," Kyodo News Agency quoted Japanese Prime Minister Taro Aso as telling reporters.

The short-range missile launches came after regional markets had closed for the day, but East Asian investors have grown used to North Korea's sabre-rattling and tend not to be fazed.

Analysts say they would likely panic only if there was military conflict on a peninsula, where 2 million troops face each other across one of the world's most heavily armed borders.

TIGHTENING SANCTIONS

Washington said this week it had tightened its crackdown on firms linked to the North's lucrative proliferation of missiles, a major source of cash for the destitute state, and has sent the U.S. point man for sanctions to Asia for discussions. [ID:nN30456056]

Enforcement of the sanctions, aimed at halting its trade in arms, would depend heavily on China, the North's biggest benefactor and trade partner, analysts said.

China said on Thursday it was sending its envoy to the six-party talks to South Korea, Japan, Russia and the United States. North Korea, the sixth party, was not on the itinerary.

"China has consistently advocated dialogue and consultation, and achieving denuclearisation of the Korean peninsula through the six-party talks process," Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang told a news briefing.

Earlier the JoongAng Ilbo daily quoted an intelligence source as saying the North was likely to fire medium or short range missiles from its east coast in early July that could include Scuds with a range of about 340 km (210 miles) or Rodong missiles with a range of up to 1,000 km (620 miles).

North Korea fired a barrage of short-range missiles following its May nuclear test, which experts said put the state closer to having a working nuclear bomb.

It launched a rocket in April in what was widely seen as a disguised long-range missile test that violated U.N. resolutions banning it from ballistic missile launches.

Philip Goldberg, the U.S. envoy who coordinates sanctions against the North, has been in China to enlist Beijing's help in getting tough with North Korea and said he had had "good discussions" with his Chinese counterparts.

"We want all the various aspects of the resolution to work", he told reporters after a day of meetings, adding that this included financial sanctions.

He will be in Malaysia on Sunday before heading back to Washington on Monday.

It was not immediately clear why he was visiting Malaysia, although earlier this week Japanese media reported police in Japan had arrested three people on suspicion of attempting to export equipment that could be used in weapons production to Myanmar via Malaysia and suspected a link to North Korea.

South Korean Foreign Minister Yu Myung-hwan said he was seeking a meeting of the foreign ministers of the six countries, including the North, on the sidelines of a regional security forum on July 23 in Thailand.

Officials said the North's military grandstanding is likely related to moves by its leadership to begin readying leader Kim Jong-il's youngest son as a future heir by consolidating the 67-year-old leader's power base. (Additional reporting by Chris Buckley and Emma Graham-Harrison in Beijing, Kim Yeon-hee and Jon Herskovitz in Seoul, Yoko Kubota in Tokyo and Andrew Gray in Washington; Editing by Jeremy Laurence and Alex Richardson)

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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glassman
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here's how to shut them down completely:

Washington said this week it had tightened its crackdown on firms linked to the North's lucrative proliferation of missiles, a major source of cash for the destitute state, and has sent the U.S. point man for sanctions to Asia for discussions

i think we all know they aren't making most of the components. shut off their supply, and then block their sales of product

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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NR
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
here's how to shut them down completely:

Washington said this week it had tightened its crackdown on firms linked to the North's lucrative proliferation of missiles, a major source of cash for the destitute state, and has sent the U.S. point man for sanctions to Asia for discussions

i think we all know they aren't making most of the components. shut off their supply, and then block their sales of product

Glass,

IMO, without help from China, an open NK-China border will undo the effects of any embargo the UN, or US attempt to enact. China is the key to NK and IMO they are not cooperating.

Machiavelli,

You mentioned earlier that causeing NK to collapse was as easy as cutting off the food supply and letting NK's armies starve. While this sounds easy and would probably work, I would like to know just exactly how you would propose we seal off the border between NK and China, where most of NK's food comes from?

NR.

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One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example.

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by NaturalResources:

Machiavelli,

You mentioned earlier that causeing NK to collapse was as easy as cutting off the food supply and letting NK's armies starve. While this sounds easy and would probably work, I would like to know just exactly how you would propose we seal off the border between NK and China, where most of NK's food comes from?

NR.

What proof is there that China supplies NK with food? If they did then NK's citizens wouldn't be starving as reports say and NK wouldn't care about our embargoes or anyone else's. But I'll humor and assume you are correct. The way to stop China from supplying NK is to pressure China economically and politically. We are China's #1 customer and they need us as much as we need them. But we have to play tough love with them but as Glass has pointed out in the past we do not have the ballz to do so. But if we did then I think China would cooperate more with us simply because they stand to lose more with us then with NK.

--------------------
Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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glassman
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seems to me that China likes to loan us money. maybe they'd like us to spend alot of money going after N Korea too? money they can loan us?

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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NR
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quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:

What proof is there that China supplies NK with food? If they did then NK's citizens wouldn't be starving as reports say and NK wouldn't care about our embargoes or anyone else's. But I'll humor and assume you are correct.

There is plenty of proof. For example, from the CIA World Factbook:

quote:
External food aid now comes primarily from China and South Korea in the form of grants and long-term concessional loans. In May 2008, the US agreed to give 500,000 metric tons of food to North Korea via the World Food Program and US nongovernmental organizations; Pyongyang began receiving these shipments in mid-2008.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/KN.html

quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:

The way to stop China from supplying NK is to pressure China economically and politically. We are China's #1 customer and they need us as much as we need them. But we have to play tough love with them but as Glass has pointed out in the past we do not have the ballz to do so. But if we did then I think China would cooperate more with us simply because they stand to lose more with us then with NK.

Perhaps... But, if they need us and we need them, where is the leverage?

Personally? If we end up having to "deal" with NK, I hope it will be as easy as everyone seems to think it will be.

NR.

--------------------
One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example.

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CashCowMoo
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quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:
Originally posted by NaturalResources:

Machiavelli,

You mentioned earlier that causeing NK to collapse was as easy as cutting off the food supply and letting NK's armies starve. While this sounds easy and would probably work, I would like to know just exactly how you would propose we seal off the border between NK and China, where most of NK's food comes from?

NR.

What proof is there that China supplies NK with food? If they did then NK's citizens wouldn't be starving as reports say and NK wouldn't care about our embargoes or anyone else's. But I'll humor and assume you are correct. The way to stop China from supplying NK is to pressure China economically and politically. We are China's #1 customer and they need us as much as we need them. But we have to play tough love with them but as Glass has pointed out in the past we do not have the ballz to do so. But if we did then I think China would cooperate more with us simply because they stand to lose more with us then with NK.
Actually Mach China DOES supply North Korea with food. 70-80% of North Koreas food imports come from China. Stop mooing.

--------------------
It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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CashCowMoo
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More missles!


North Korea Fires 2 Mid-Range Missiles Off Coast

SEOUL, South Korea — North Korea fired two missiles off it eastern coast Saturday, South Korea said, in yet another provocative move after U.N. sanctions were imposed on the communist regime for its May nuclear test.

The missiles were fired between 8 a.m. and 8:30 a.m., South Korea's Joint Chiefs of Staff said in a statement. It did not say the range of the missiles.

"Our military is fully ready to counter any North Korean threats and provocations based on strong South Korea-U.S. combined defense posture," the statement said.

A Yonhap news agency report said North Korea fired two short-range missiles that appeared to be Scud missiles. The agency quoted a South Korean government official it did not identify. Yonhap originally reported the missiles were mid-range.

North Korea fired four short-range missiles off the east coast on Thursday.

Speculation had been high that the communist country might launch more missiles in coming days. North Korea had warned shipping to stay away from its east coast effective through July 10.

South Korea's military said Friday it was closely monitoring North Korean military sites, believing more missile launches were likely.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,530004,00.html

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
Actually Mach China DOES supply North Korea with food. 70-80% of North Koreas food imports come from China. Stop mooing.

Did you read Natural Resources post? :

"External food aid now comes primarily from China and South Korea in the form of grants and long-term concessional loans. "

Loans and Grants. I interpret that to mean money and such but even if it is food you better believe that Kim Jong is not giving it to the common people.

So your not only Mooing now your NOT reading.

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
More missles!


North Korea Fires 2 Mid-Range Missiles Off Coast

SEOUL, South Korea — North Korea fired two missiles off it eastern coast Saturday, South Korea said, in yet another provocative move after U.N. sanctions were imposed on the communist regime for its May nuclear test.

The missiles were fired between 8 a.m. and 8:30 a.m., South Korea's Joint Chiefs of Staff said in a statement. It did not say the range of the missiles.

"Our military is fully ready to counter any North Korean threats and provocations based on strong South Korea-U.S. combined defense posture," the statement said.

A Yonhap news agency report said North Korea fired two short-range missiles that appeared to be Scud missiles. The agency quoted a South Korean government official it did not identify. Yonhap originally reported the missiles were mid-range.

North Korea fired four short-range missiles off the east coast on Thursday.

Speculation had been high that the communist country might launch more missiles in coming days. North Korea had warned shipping to stay away from its east coast effective through July 10.

South Korea's military said Friday it was closely monitoring North Korean military sites, believing more missile launches were likely.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,530004,00.html

Fox news... gee what a surprise lol now we know your a Fox news addict... anyways nothing says those missiles were Nuclear or any proof they were...

Stop Double Mooing...

Btw I really don't think South Korea is helping NK with food now do you? [Wink]

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by NaturalResources:
External food aid now comes primarily from China and South Korea in the form of grants and long-term concessional loans. In May 2008, the US agreed to give 500,000 metric tons of food to North Korea via the World Food Program and US nongovernmental organizations; Pyongyang began receiving these shipments in mid-2008.

This article is about 2 years old but I think it's still true:

"Outside aid has all but ceased because foreign donors — even the regime’s ally China — have used food shortages to put pressure on its leadership."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1466568.ece

I can assume SK and the U.S. are not giving them food aid currently.

quote:
Perhaps... But, if they need us and we need them, where is the leverage?
Money. China wants our money whether from collecting the money they lent us or from selling us their products. We are their #1 customer and i doubt NK even comes close to being so.

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quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:
Originally posted by NaturalResources:
External food aid now comes primarily from China and South Korea in the form of grants and long-term concessional loans. In May 2008, the US agreed to give 500,000 metric tons of food to North Korea via the World Food Program and US nongovernmental organizations; Pyongyang began receiving these shipments in mid-2008.

This article is about 2 years old but I think it's still true:

"Outside aid has all but ceased because foreign donors — even the regime’s ally China — have used food shortages to put pressure on its leadership."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1466568.ece

I can assume SK and the U.S. are not giving them food aid currently.

quote:
Perhaps... But, if they need us and we need them, where is the leverage?
Money. China wants our money whether from collecting the money they lent us or from selling us their products. We are their #1 customer and i doubt NK even comes close to being so.

Ok, so I think I can see the point you and Glass are trying to make. The US and China are in a love-hate relationship and it is in both of our mutual interests to cooperate economically. We need them and they need us, neither can walk away, so in a sense it creates a type of type of "dependant" based relationship that could be used for leverage on the NK issue.

However, IMO that is based on the assumption that the Chinese leadership values economic relationships with the US over Military and Strategic relationships with NK. Geopolitically, NK provides a very important "buffer-zone" between Communist China and Western Forces in SK and Japan. SK is essentially an "American Foothold" on the Asian continent and right at China's doorstep. IMO it seems foolish to assume that the Chinese leadership would abandon NK in such a way that it created a situation where US/Western forces and Chinese forces shared a common border.

Also, the Chinese economy does not operate in a vacume and with a few strategic economic deals with Europe, Russia and India, IMO it would be a lot easier for China to walk away from the US economically, than for the US to walk away from China, assuming it were to ever come to that point. (I agree, we don't have the cahones.)

JMO anyway,
NR.

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CashCowMoo
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I said CHINA not South Korea MACH...always twistin the words. So what if I read Fox News articles. You make it sound like there is a difference between them and MSNBC being Obamas poster child.

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
I said CHINA not South Korea MACH...always twistin the words. So what if I read Fox News articles. You make it sound like there is a difference between them and MSNBC being Obamas poster child.

You didn't dispute others saying SK so you agree with them... but anyways China gives them loans/grants and they could also be holding back on NK lately in that regards...

As for MSNBC, they may be Left and biased that way but imo they are little more truthful if not completely truthful compared to Fox...

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Ran across this Opinion piece, figured I would post it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20090707/cm_csm/yeasleyweb

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"US officials eye North Korea in cyber attack
Officials eye North Korea as origin of cyber attack that showed US agencies unevenly prepared
By Lolita C. Baldor, Associated Press Writer
On Wednesday July 8, 2009, 6:19 pm EDT

WASHINGTON (AP) -- U.S. authorities say they are eyeing North Korea as the origin of the cyber attack that overwhelmed government Web sites in the United States and South Korea. They warned it will be difficult to identify the attackers quickly.

Internet addresses have been traced to North Korea, three officials said, but they added that does not suggest the attack involved the government in Pyongyang. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter.

The Internet attack, which stretched on for days beginning during the July 4 Independence Day holiday weekend, targeted dozens of government and private sites and underscored how unevenly prepared the U.S. government is to block such assaults."

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The Last time this story came up we had a Financial Crisis months later.....Now the story has come up again????

Is History going to repeat itself???

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Ask wikileaks.

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CashCowMoo
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breaking news....South Korea has begun live fire drills near the border. Not sure if anyone saw Russia calling for a UN meeting over it.


The United Nations Security Council's emergency talks on easing Korean tensions have ended without an agreement, just hours before South Korea was due to begin an artillery exercise on the border island that North Korean guns attacked last month.

North Korea has warned there could be "catastrophic" effects if the South Korean military goes ahead with its plans in the disputed area around Yeonpyeong Island.

As preparations went ahead Monday for the live-fire drill - a military exercise using live ammunition - the South Korean military ordered everyone on Yeonpyeong and adjacent islands into air-raid shelters.

There were unconfirmed reports that the artillery exercise would be delayed several hours, until the afternoon, due to foggy weather.

The focus of the crisis shifted to the Korean peninsula after diplomatic efforts collapsed at U.N. headquarters in New York.

Russian U.N. envoy Vitaly Churkin emerged from hours of talks late Sunday and told reporters that Security Council members could not agree on wording of a statement urging the two Koreas to exercise "extreme restraint." Churkin said it would be better if South Korea did not hold military drills at this time, but at that moment journalists and others on the islands were already being ordered to take shelter.

The U.S. ambassador at the U.N., Susan Rice, said most Security Council members wanted a strongly worded condemnation of North Korea's two attacks on the South this year. However, Rice said several nations - presumably including China, North Korea's closest ally - would not agree.

The U.S. envoy, speaking separately after the Security Council session ended, also reiterated Washington's view that South Korea has the right to conduct military drills in the Yellow Sea, and has done so without any deception.

Seoul says hostile action by North Korea has killed at least 50 of its citizens this year.

North Korea's November 23 attack on Yeonpyeong Island killed four people, including two civilians, and an explosion on March 26 that sank a South Korean warship in the same area killed 46 sailors. An international investigation concluded the ship was sunk by a North Korean torpedo, but Pyongyang has vehemently denied any role in the sinking.

During the emergency talks at the U.N. Sunday, Churkin said Security Council members discussed appointing an international envoy to begin diplomatic talks with both sides. The Russian diplomat said the talks started too late to pursue that goal, and that too many members were unable to act without consulting their governments about the wording of any statement.

Rice said she would not expect the Council to agree on a joint statement regardless how long the meeting lasted.

No one would name the countries to which they were referring.

Former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations Bill Richardson has been in North Korea trying to resolve the tense situation, and he told a reporter (for CNN) Sunday that his talks in Pyongyang had made "some progress." Specifically, Richardson, said a North Korean general was receptive to his proposal for setting up a hotline between North and South Korean forces.

Richardson's four-day trip to North Korea was due to end Monday.


http://www.voanews.com/english/news/South-Korea-Prepares-for-Live-Fire-Artillery -Exercises-Near-Border-112165289.html

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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