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Author Topic: Why are you a Conservative?
bdgee
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So?

Didn't we know already that you rightwingers started out "knowing" everything you are going to consider?

What about the innocent life of the Mother to be?

The rightwing likes to parade the notion that a woman that has chosen abortion will live to regret it later and is in no condition to make that decision while she is pregnant. BULL!!!

How can you say that when, in such a peronal and possibly damaging situation, most women would be careful not to publicize the fact? Maybe it is true that MOST women that choose an abortion later on live happy and fruitful lives.

It is nothing more than a scenerio that you want to believe when you claim that later regret will ensue.

In fact, almost all the rightwing propaganda about abortion is little more than wishful thinking and religious zeel. There is no data to support those positions. Moreover, they are primarilly religious conviction, which our Constitution guarantees us will not be respected in the making of law.

Now, I won't ever have the opportunity to exercise a choice about having or not having an abortion, as I am not physically in the game. However, were that not the case, I feel certain that I would choose to have a baby rather than an abortion, unless that was impossible. But I feel even more certain that I would rather have that choice than have you or the government decide for me.

Personally, I'm sick of "The Decider" and all his cadre nand his tribe.

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Hannibull
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quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Bennett:
Welcome to America, where there are so many laws, everyone's a criminal!

[Big Grin]

it's not that different here really [Wink]
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ruthie
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I'm sorry bdgee. I forgot you are so superior. Forgive me!! No one is talking about when a woman's life is at stake. That is a completely seperate matter completely..., and as far as it being BULL!, why don't you go along with the next woman you know that is going to have an abortion and sit and hold her hand and watch what she goes through and make sure you look at the jar of blood and tissue that is being taken away and and while you are at it, stay a part of that woman's life and see how she may feel about it a few years down the road.....and as far as it being a rightwing attitude, you are so wrong, it is all about concern and compassion, with no political affiliation whatsoever. Not everything is about right versus left.
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bdgee
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"....why don't you go along with the next woman you know that is going to have an abortion and sit and hold her hand and watch what she goes through ..."

You make a false assumption in making that statement. You need to learn not to say that people have or haven't done things so you won't make that mistake again.

So, let me ask you, how many times have you been present during an abortion? At least once, so that you can assure me that the conditions you describe are correct. I think the situation, as you describe it, is a description of an abortion performed secretely and illegally, during a time that your kind made them illegal so that young girls were forced to go to hacks to get them.

Is it as I suspect, you have never been there during an abortion? In other words you don't know what you speak of at all.

"...and sit and hold her hand and watch what she goes through and make sure you look at the jar of blood and tissue that is being taken away ..."

Ever seen an apendectomy. A tonsilectomy. An amputation? All the things you say are true for an abortion are doubly true for them. Following your argument, then we let the guy die of gangreen rather than cut off the toe, because it is sickening to watch. Ever seen the results of failing to remove an apendix and what that does to the person, physically and mentally? If they are lucky there will be years later for them.


I have been there years later, both with women that had abortions and women that had the baby and, over all, I find the ones who choose abortion generally are much better off psychologically, though there is CERTAINLY not general rule, whatever you like to claim.

No, you are wrong. IT IS A RIGHTWING OBSESSION, not at all about concern and compassion, directed at controlling others lives for the sake of controlling and so that the madness of religious ferver can be satiated, inspite of the Constitution.

You are the know-it-all, with such self assurance that you had the answers to what I may not have witnessed.....and so terribly wrong you were.

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jordanreed
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lets make abortion illegal..

we need thousands more unwanted kids roaming the streets,looking for ways to prey on actual innocents...

how many thugs are in prison that should of been aborted?..

ever lived in the ghetto?..
i have for 25 years..

sooooo many unwanted,unloved,uncared for.. future criminals, and active criminals, ...

it will always be that way..but it would be much worse were abortion illegal..

i have sat with a woman while she waited to save a life...4- times.. they were relieved.

course, they received less welfare..but, other than that, they were fine.

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jordan

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Hannibull
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i love it when "pro-lifers" are also for the death penalty
apparently choosing between life or death is negotiable depending on the situation! But then don't be so pretentious calling yourself "pro-life"

also, it's not that black and white, just because you're not anti-abortion doesn't mean you think abortion is ok. I don't call myself 100% anti-abortion even though I'm very much against it. I believe abortion should ONLY be legal after a thorough medical and psychological evaluation procedure, like (to give an example) when there's a complication and the mother's health and life is in danger during the pregnancy and the child is going to die anyway. I do NOT condone abortion as a method of birth control.

I don't know however what the "right" thing to do is in the case of a rape and a child is conceived... I don't call myself pro-choice, nor pro-life, it's a case by case evaluation, and that's why making it illegal for every situation is simply wrong

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Hannibull
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Lockman
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quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Bennett:

Did you notice Scooter Libby is still on the list? Perhaps he can vote from prison. LOL

Scooter will never go to prison at least not very long. I smell a pardon in 08. lol

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Let's Go METS!!!

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The Bigfoot
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First off some statistics:

In 1973 when abortion first became legal the total female population of the United States was 108,402,337

Population Source

The very first year that abortions became legal there were 741,000 abortions. This is roughly 3/4ths of 1% of the total female population at that time.
Abortion Stat source

(I am using the higher AGI stats)

In 1990 the abortion records reached their highest level of 1,608,600 abortions in that calendar year.

At that time the total US female population was 127,838,000.

This gives us our highest ratio of approximately 1.4% of the female population of the United States having an abortion.

Since that time statistics show that the abortion rate has steadily been decreasing over the last 15 years.

In 2000 (the last year in which I could get an educated estimate of both population and abortion rate from the sources above) the abortion rate dropped down to approximately 1,312,990 while the total female population of the United States grew to 143,713,000.

This drops the abortion ratio down to just above 9/10ths of 1% of the female population.

While I do not have numbers strong enough to relate, the general consensus is that the abortion rate is continuing a measured drop while the female population continues to grow.

All the above is to give some context to this conversation regarding abortion. It is a difficult issue to broach. The term 'dead babies' goes against pretty much ever moral and natural instinct we have as a human species so I very much understand the vehement desire to quash any program or law that would seem to support such an end result.

However, taking the human emotional and instinctual element out of the conversation, you have to confront some very harsh realities.

In 1973, the very first year that abortion was legalized, there were over 700,000 abortions. This was at a time when the family nuclei was generally much stronger and the racial and cultural diversity of our nation much more limited. This suggests that abortion rates can not be directly tied to cultural or racial factors though they may certainly contribute in some cases.

Further, these 700 thousand women did not just all of a sudden decide it was OK because it was now legal. These numbers point to the conclusion that hundreds of thousands of women were having back alley abortions every year prior to this law. Putting themselves in hazardous situations medically/environmentally/ and emotionally to have this "illegal" procedure done. Where there is a back alley beyond the law malpractice, abuse, and compromising situations abound because there are NO LEGAL SAFEGUARDS and those who are preyed upon have already broken the law to be there and hence have NO LEGAL RECOURSE to combat the wrongs done to them.

The truth of the matter is Abortion is not the problem. Rather it is another symptom of other overarching problems such as abuse, broken homes, poverty, strict cultural or religious expectations of youth, lack of sexual education, etc., coupled along with the foolishness of youth.

So yes, I am a pro-choice liberal. Not because I desire the right for children to be killed, but because I recognize that abortion is an indicator of other ills within our society. Passing a law to ban abortion will only drive it back into the shadows to breed a whole new system of corruption and degradation that will prey upon our children and their friends and allow us to turn a blind eye to the causal factors by not having to face their effects in the open.

Discuss with me and I will happily discuss with you.

To he who calls me a Baby Killer I will call him a blind hypocritical buffoon .

Blind because he can not see the larger forces involved.

Hypocritical because he marches to the drum of protecting children while actively undermining the current protections given to our young women.

And Buffoon because he is so quick to judgment and action and loud vociferous attacks he does not even realize that he is blind and hypocritical.

The Bigfoot

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No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues.

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T e x
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solid post, big...

ya know what gets me? Who has time/money/energy to go around telling other folk what to with their private lives?

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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Highwaychild
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Rudy Giuliani is a conservative, but he still likes abortion...
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buckstalker
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Hannibul...comparing abortion to the death penalty is absurd. Abortion is the killing of an INNOCENT life for convenience, and the death penalty is a form of punishment for a GUILTY criminal...no comparison.

The rest of your statement I completely agree with...but the sad fact is, that in America abortion IS primarily a form of birth control...


quote:
Originally posted by Hannibull:
i love it when "pro-lifers" are also for the death penalty
apparently choosing between life or death is negotiable depending on the situation! But then don't be so pretentious calling yourself "pro-life"

also, it's not that black and white, just because you're not anti-abortion doesn't mean you think abortion is ok. I don't call myself 100% anti-abortion even though I'm very much against it. I believe abortion should ONLY be legal after a thorough medical and psychological evaluation procedure, like (to give an example) when there's a complication and the mother's health and life is in danger during the pregnancy and the child is going to die anyway. I do NOT condone abortion as a method of birth control.

I don't know however what the "right" thing to do is in the case of a rape and a child is conceived... I don't call myself pro-choice, nor pro-life, it's a case by case evaluation, and that's why making it illegal for every situation is simply wrong



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***********************

It's all in the timing...

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bdgee
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Big, you dun it agen. A great bit of work.

Long ago, before Roe vs. Wade, I saw the "educated" estimates of illegal abortions, for that day and time" and was appaled and sickend, particularly by the high rate of death and terribly serious damage done to the young women when things went wrong.

Even with abortion legal now, with all the threats and attacks and danger of going to a "legal" clinic for an abortion, many thousands pay the higher cost of illegal abortion. The rates of bad results is as bad for them now as it was then.

The greatest danger seems to be from the fear that is generated by unyielding narrow minded groups more interested in subjecting and supressing the population than they are in th population or what is best for it.

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Lockman
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanreed:
lets make abortion illegal..

we need thousands more unwanted kids roaming the streets,looking for ways to prey on actual innocents...

how many thugs are in prison that should of been aborted?..

ever lived in the ghetto?..
i have for 25 years..

sooooo many unwanted,unloved,uncared for.. future criminals, and active criminals, ...

it will always be that way..but it would be much worse were abortion illegal..

i have sat with a woman while she waited to save a life...4- times.. they were relieved.

course, they received less welfare..but, other than that, they were fine.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point but are you suggesting Abortion as a crime fighting technique?

Interesting, maybe we could advocate sterilizing some of these women that produce these monsters.

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Let's Go METS!!!

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bdgee
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One bit, jordanreed, set the hook...


.....LOL.......

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jordanreed
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is it worth it?..

i thought i made my point. but now that i think of it?.. sterilizing some of these welfare grabbing,crackheaded,unwanted baby,machines, may not be a bad idea.

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jordan

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buckstalker
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The 2 posters immediatly precedeing this one remind me of the main characters in the movie "Dumb And Dumber".

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***********************

It's all in the timing...

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Lockman
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanreed:
is it worth it?..

i thought i made my point. but now that i think of it?.. sterilizing some of these welfare grabbing,crackheaded,unwanted baby,machines, may not be a bad idea.

Yes I believe you did make your point.

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Let's Go METS!!!

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bond006
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Hiel mine Fuher
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jordanreed
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quote:
Originally posted by retiredat49:
The 2 posters immediatly precedeing this one remind me of the main characters in the movie "Dumb And Dumber".

golly.gee whiz...you sure are a nice guy.

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jordan

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bdgee
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And he has the perception and sense of humor to compete with a cedar post.
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unclerudy
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So here is the real reason why a lot of intelligent people have a problem with Roe V Wade. That was the beginnings of the movement of judges to interpet things that are in the Constitution that are not, such as a woman's right to have an abortion. Roe V. Wade comes down to a simple issue of State's rights, and should not have been a Federal mandate of judges to make new laws from the bench. If everyone remembers their high school government class, there are three branches of the government, and each branch is there to serve a specific purpose. The Legislative branch comes up with laws. The Executive branch signs laws into effect. The Judicial branch judges the Constitutionality of the laws passed. Each branch has a specific job to do, and should not do the job of another branch. There is a system of checks and balances, and all three branches need to do their jobs correctly for the system to work.

So back to the topic of Roe V. Wade. Where in the Constitution does it explictly say that a woman has the right to have an abortion? It doesn't. But because of the overstepping in boundries cause by Roe V. Wade, it has been a wellspring for other "rights" to be found in the Constitution, that have not been written there.

I am an Originalist. I feel that the founding fathers gave us a set of laws that our country is based on, detailing all of our rights and obligations. It also gave us a way to change the Constitution through amendments, which has happened 17 times throughout the history of our country. The majority of the seventeen amendments stem from continued efforts to expand individual civil or political liberties, while a few are concerned with modifying the basic governmental structure drafted in Philadelphia in 1787. No where in the Constitution does it say that judges should be able to say what is and what is not in the document.

Now I am a Conservative because I feel that the USA is the best country in the world. We came from a group of rebel farmers and commoners who didn't want to pay tribute to a king, and came up with the best form of government ever created. The founding fathers wanted a small government, and they wanted it to interfere with their lives as little as possible. The whole purpose of the government is to provide services that cannot be had by private citizens alone, such as national defense, public safety, international trade. It should not be a presence in peoples everyday lives.

Smaller government means less taxes. Less taxes means less waste, and more in my pocket at the end of the day. Anyone who is truly a Conservative will tell you that.

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Muad'Dib knew that every experience carries its lesson.

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unclerudy
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And here is another reason why I am a Conservative.

I feel that everyone can succeed, if they work hard enough for what they want. They job of the government is to give a helping hand along the way, to allow people to better themselves so that they no longer need the help of the government.

Liberals feel the opposite way. They believe the worst in people, that they are doomed to fail, and that only the government can help them, and that they should feel endebted to the government. Liberals don't ever want people to stop relying on the government, because if they succeed, they will not see the need of the government help.

Liberals spread a message of fear, that the help will be taken away, if Liberals are not in power. That government payments will be stopped, and that people will have to EARN a living, instead of subsisting on welfare. Liberals also feel that they are better than everyone, and know what is best for others.

Conservatives spread the message of self reliance. They say that if you work hard, you will succeed. They say that you don't need the government to be successful. Conservatives also know what is best for others. It is just that they know that hard work and effort is best for a person, not being handed freebies and being told that they are worthless.

The real difference between Liberals and Conservatives is one of human value. Liberals don't value individuals much besides their vote and their taxes. Conservatives on the other hand value the individual, and what that person can accomplish on their own.

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Muad'Dib knew that every experience carries its lesson.

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glassman
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Roe V. Wade comes down to a simple issue of State's rights, and should not have been a Federal mandate of judges to make new laws from the bench.

. We came from a group of rebel farmers and commoners who didn't want to pay tribute to a king, and came up with the best form of government ever created. The founding fathers wanted a small government, and they wanted it to interfere with their lives as little as possible. The whole purpose of the government is to provide services that cannot be had by private citizens alone, such as national defense, public safety, international trade. It should not be a presence in peoples everyday lives.


unclerudy, you have misunderstood the principles behind Roe V Wade. the underlying principle is that the govt has no business telling a woman what she can do, or not do with her body. the sad fact is that abortion has been around for thousands of years, it is safer today than it ever was, but it is not new, and isn't it more apropriate that as real conservative? you should respect another persons right to privacy?

there were absolutely no drug laws written into the constitution either... you could buy opium and cocaine here in the US legally for many years, and yes the founding fathers grew marijuana on their plantations, or should i say? their slaves did...

why do you CALL yourself a conservative? [Wink]

"liberals" and "conservative" platforms have BOTH set up double standards within their "planks"

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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unclerudy
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I forgot to acknowledge that I believe in economic conservatism and strong private property rights, along with the rule of law. We have a system in which unjust laws can and should be abolished. And I feel that judicial activism is the worst potential outcome of our system, which has its roots in Roe V. Wade, which opened the floodgates for an ever increasing amount of the vile practice. If Roe V. Wade was to be overturned, and given back to the states to decide if abortion should be legal or not, it would set a great precedent to overturn other so called "rights" that have been interpreted into the Constitution. And it would hopefully turn the tide on judicial activism.

Again. I feel that abortion should be a states rights issue, and not a Constitutional one. Show me where in the Constitution where a woman has the right to an abortion, and I will agree with you. The right to privacy is also not anywhere in the Constitution, and I don't understand how having a medical procedure which terminates a pregnancy has anything to do with privacy. The government dictates what happens when any form of life is taken, at any stage of the life cycle. But is should not be a right given from the Constitution. It should an option to have a medical procedure.

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Muad'Dib knew that every experience carries its lesson.

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glassman
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States Rights were sorta settled with the Civil War. They don't have many.

Do you want to go back to the Civil War to redecide how States Rights work?

I am conservative, i believe in individual rights, and less govt interference too... the problem i have with todays "conservatives" is that they all seem to be telling everybody else what they can or can't do...

I am not pro-abortion, but i also know that each person has their own individual relationship with God (or not).

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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dinner42
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Is it still a free country?

anyone care to answer?

If you want an abortion, go to Mexico. If you want to have a child, then have a child. Its your life, you decide.

Live and let Live...

I have my personal beliefs, but that only matters and I only have control over it when I am in the voting booth and even then I only have a shot at getting what I want. So its a give and take a left and a right world here in the good old US of A. It isn't a perfect world, thats for sure, but we must keep up the fight and stand for whats right and back and forth and work that constitution and exercise our freedom and screem and yell at eachother and debate till we are blue in the face and on and on.. Thats the crux of the matter. It keeps us busy and busy from killing each other like in Iraq, where some simply can not figure out how to live with eachother without killing eachother. Killing is easy it requires very little thought and very little intellegence,(define intellegence) living together as humanity is the difficult part and most rewarding way to live. We have a long way to go..

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Bill Gates, Donald Trump and James Dean, Willie Nelson, John Lennon and Neil McCoy

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bdgee
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unclerudy,

Ok, I get your point. You are a conservative. Also, you are a very very verbose and wordy conservative.


But do you get that most of what you are claiming to be truth is the basest sort of wild speculation? I doubt it, to tell the truth.

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Gordon Bennett
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No, it is not still a free country.

quote:
Originally posted by dinner42:
Is it still a free country?

anyone care to answer?



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"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a
little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

- Benjamin Franklin

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Gordon Bennett
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What about the men?

quote:
Originally posted by Lockman:
maybe we could advocate sterilizing some of these women that produce these monsters.



--------------------
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a
little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

- Benjamin Franklin

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T e x
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quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Bennett:
No, it is not still a free country.

quote:
Originally posted by dinner42:
Is it still a free country?

anyone care to answer?


You know...

a really good question is this:

What's your definition/criteria for a free country?

suggestions: 1) travel w/o passport 2) get paid for work 3-a) more or less, feel safe 3-b) more or less, feel children are safe 4) fish off a bridge 5) fish off a bridge w/o threat of mercury poisoning ?

OK...you go

--------------------
Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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glassman
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suggestions: 1) travel w/o passport 2) get paid for work 3-a) more or less, feel safe 3-b) more or less, feel children are safe 4) fish off a bridge 5) fish off a bridge w/o threat of mercury poisoning ?
isn't that China?

Long lines, short tempers at passport office

By Michelle S. Keller
Tribune staff reporter
Published March 20, 2007, 1:07 PM CDT

Prospective travelers attempting to get a passport at the Kluczynski Federal Building today responded to long lines with short tempers, as the rush of spring-break travelers coupled with a surge in passport applications resulting from new restrictions on travel have made for nightmarish conditions.


and? no! the Kluczynski Federal Building is not next door to the Kremlin [Big Grin]

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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glassman
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Freedom: (it's disappearing fast)

The right to bear arms.
The right to legal (and privileged, or confidential) counsel, and the right to not incriminate oneself.
The right to confidential health care.
The right to eat or drink or smoke anything you want.
The right to privacy, including telephone and mail.
yada yada... too many people are settling for the dregs of freedom.

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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T e x
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
Freedom: (it's disappearing fast)

The right to bear arms.
The right to legal (and privileged, or confidential) counsel, and the right to not incriminate oneself.
The right to confidential health care.
The right to eat or drink or smoke anything you want.
The right to privacy, including telephone and mail.
yada yada... too many people are settling for the dregs of freedom.

not a bad list...and, in fact, a hell of a good start...

However, I'm not looking so much for *bullet points* from the Constitution, but more descriptive, more anecdotal if you will...

--------------------
Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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glassman
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i'm not sure i get your drift...

freedom to me means i can sit inside my own house and not get burned out by the ATF [Roll Eyes]

no-knock warrants? sheesh... Thomas Jefferson is crying...
or?

when i am arrested? i can apppear before a judge (habeus corpus) and get speedy trial..

d'oh.... that's gone now too....(Padilla)

and any people that are crying for this stuff call themselves conservative (shame on you) [Razz]

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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