quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: So...how far up your ass have you put your head? Half way...three quarters...that sounds painful!!! That explains your inability to think clearly though...
Yes, Gordon, pay attention to retiredat49!
In these matters he is the expert.
He's up there routinely all the time and is accutely aware of the effects of it.
He knows!!!!
He's a pro.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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"When a 23 year old goes to a liquor store and is asked for their ID, is he allowed to buy alcohol without showing ID? Where does it say in the constitution that he doesn't have to prove he is of legal age to purchase alcohol? No ID, No Sale. "
Your right, but can the Cashier Taser him as the kid is walking out of the liquor store?
That's the point here,
you making to big of deal about showing the I.D. this whole thing has nothing to with the ID, it's about whether the cops should have tasered him or not. First of all they weren't even aresting him. You can't resist aresting if you aren't being arested in the first place. The kid was never charged, or read his rights.
Posts: 2321 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
You just changed the situation. bdgee was arguing that it is unconstitutional for police to ask for ID in that situation. I showed that it is not unconstitutional.
So then we go on to the next scenerio. What situation did the student present after refusing ID? I can't believe I'm repeating this part again. He was an unidentified male refusing to show ID and therefore trespassing. Then he was yelling in a rage at police officers as he refused to cooperate with officers.
Even if he was laying on the floor limp what was the scenerio? He needed to be removed. He was still yelling at police so the cops tasered him to subdue him.
The commodity that an ID buys is different in the situations as well. In the library the ID allows you to stay in the building. In the liquor store an ID allows you to buy alcohol. So the person at the liquor store would be yelling at the cashier about letting them buy alcohol, not about leaving the store.
If someone was yelling at a cashier with the rage this kid was yelling with I'm sure they could have tasered them under the grounds of self defense since it would be unsure what he would do next. Would he leap over the counter in rage to beat the cashier and take the alcohol?
When you change the scenerios you change what the person is yelling about. Therefore, yes, a cashier at a liquor store could possibly have the right to taser the suspect if they feel they're acting in self defense.
Posts: 1504 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
i say taser everybody that carries a taser BEFORE they can be issued one....
maybe the "training" tasering should be 50% srtength? maybe 75% strength? i dunno, but if it's really safe? then getting it done as part of the training should be no problem...
i was tear gassed in boot camp, no problem... but i think it was weaker than normal too...
i think tasers are too easy to use, but have a proper place in law enforcement....
my kid is in college, i want to know who is hanging out on campus everywhere, not just in the library
posted
"you making to big of deal about showing the I.D. this whole thing has nothing to with the ID, it's about whether the cops should have tasered him or not. First of all they weren't even aresting him. You can't resist aresting if you aren't being arested in the first place. The kid was never charged, or read his rights"
Actually that was bdgee making the big deal about police asking for ID and if that was constitutional or not. My deal with the ID is just that it adds more to him being unidentified, which is very important to a situation. If he is indentified they know if the person has any arrest warrants out for them. Have they committed any crimes in the past?
I have stated several times the cops did use excessive force. I have stated that if he was already handcuffed at the time of the first taser then the first taser was excessive force.
Who said anything about being arrested? He needed to be removed from the building. You don't need to be arrested by cops to be removed from a building. If you're acting enraged then it's going to take more than just a push and a shove to remove you. If he had just followed the cops simple commands and not become furious with them, the cops would have had no reason to taser him.
Posts: 1504 | Registered: Sep 2004
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LOS ANGELES -- The UCLA police officer videotaped using a Taser gun on a student also shot a homeless man at a campus study hall room three years ago and was recommended for dismissal in connection with an alleged assault on fraternity row, it was reported Tuesday.
UCLA police confirmed Monday night that the officer who fired the Taser gun was Terrence Duren, who has served in the university's Police Department for 18 years, the Los Angeles Times reported.
Duren, named officer of the year in 2001, has been involved in several controversial incidents on campus. But in an interview with The Times last night, the 43-year-old Duren defended his record and urged people to withhold judgment until the review of his Taser use is completed.
While he would not directly talk about why he used the Taser on the student, he told The Times that a videotape of any arrest doesn't necessarily tell the whole story.
"If someone is resisting, sometimes it's not going to look pretty taking someone into custody," he told the newspaper.
A student's cellphone video of the incident has been broadcast around the world and focused much criticism on the officer.
The incident occurred about 11 p.m. Nov. 14 in a library filled with students studying for midterm examinations. Senior Mostafa Tabatabainejad, 23, was asked by Duren and other university police officers for his ID as part of a routine procedure to make sure that everyone using the library after 11 p.m. is a student or otherwise authorized to be there.
Authorities said Tabatabainejad refused to provide identification or leave. Officers decided to use the Taser to incapacitate him after he went limp while they were escorting him out and after he urged other library patrons to join his resistance, according to the university's account.
posted
what i find particularly rediculous is after tasering this guy (for those who dont know a taser is to immobilize a suspect) they tell him to stand up or they will taser him again!! how could the guy win?
-------------------- "Gentleman, you have come sixty days too late. The depression is over." Herbert Hoover 1930 Posts: 678 | From: currently in hiding due to investigation | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Since you have failed to address my points and continue to insist it was just a race thing I consider this convorsation over. I'm kind of dissappointed. I wanted to know how your philosophical sentence related to what I said. I guess we'll never know.
Posts: 1504 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I stopped considering it a conversation when you refused to post without insults and made it plain that you consider anything to the left of Bonito to be leftist.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
"Yours seems to be a quite simple minded reading of the Constitution, allowing only those results that your rightwing leanings want to come from the Constitution."
"I think you are showing a tad of racial prejudice yourself and way more than a tad of the sort of prejucice bad cops have for what they call "civilians"."
"You clearly have no respect for the Constitution and are an avid supporter of the rightwing undermining of the Constitution. I am not!"
Those are direct quotes from your posts bdgee. You called me a simple minded, right wing, constitution destroying racist. When in fact I have voted democrat for the past two elections, have a degree from one of the top public universities in New England, and support the constitution. I applaud judges that strike down attempts by President Bush to circumvent the constitution. I don't agree with water boarding and do think it is a form of torture.
Now you go back and search my quotes for what you claim are insults.
Also, try to come back and address my valid points, which you are avoiding by saying I insulted you. I know I told you to get over yourself and what not. So while I may not be innocent, it is clear that neither are you. GET OVER YOURSELF!
Posts: 1504 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I don't take orders well and I will not play your childish far right game of "tell me your view so I can belittle it".
Go find a mirror and be arrogant in front of it, if that personna so pleases you. No one will miss you doing it here.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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They are in fact not factual statements as I have mentioned. I guess voting democrat the past two elections does make me a right wing republican. "Just a bit of backward logic, there, it seems."
No you don't take orders well and you don't engage in debates well either. You haven't come back to disprove my valid points. You come back using philosophical statements that don't relate to what I said, tell me to, "Go find a mirror and be arrogant in front of it, if that personna so pleases you. No one will miss you doing it here," and say I insulted you.
Real mature. You have done nothing to further this discussion in your last 4 posts. The others before it could be said to be lacking in substance as well since it was you who brought race and ethnicity into it. You've misused the constitution. You have failed to address the safety of the police and other students and how the student was actually presenting himself.
You have done nothing for this discussion except give me ways to prove the police were correct in their actions to remove and subdue the suspect. Come back and debate me rather than insulting me.
Posts: 1504 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Now lets see, you say the cops had good reason and every right to accost the student and it wasn't an arrest, but when he tried to leave, that gave the cops reason and the right to beat him senseless with a tasor, because he was resisting an arrest you insist wasn't there.
It still requires adequate cause, not a cops will or whim, to legally use police power to stop people!
You are so far rightwing reactionary you probably think the cops in that New york shooting of the bridegroom had no choice but to murder a defenseless and innocent person with 50 shots into a car in violation of police guidlines.
And I bet you think that poor old lady in Atlanta wasn't deaf and was a mortal threat to the American way of life.
You are hawking meanness and evil, not law.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
How is he leaving when he is lying limp on the floor? Was he leaving before that? That hasn't been proven yet. Therefore I'm debating the case that he wasn't leaving.
What gives the cops reason to taser him? UNIDENTIFIED MALE REFUSING TO SHOW ID. THEREFORE ILLEGALLY TRESPASSING. YELLING IN A FURIOUS RAGE AT POLICE OFFICERS AND REFUSING TO COOPERATE WITH OFFICERS. NEEDED TO BE SUBDUED.
How many times do I have to state that AND that I agree it was excessive force after the initial tasering AND that the initial tasering was excessive force as well if he was already handcuffed at the time.
I never said he was resisting arrest because I never said he was getting arrested. If you lash out at cops when they want you to do something you're going to pay a price. They make decisions on if you're going to escalate the conflict to the next step. They need to act with their safety in mind. It's like you're saying a cop has no reason to bring you down if you run at him full speed screaming, because you say you were going to stop before you hit him. No. The cop has reason to bring you down.
You still think tasering is beating huh? You still haven't told me if you believe getting shot by a bullet is considered beating someone.
As for the second half of your post. Not only does it not do anything for this debate and try to insult me, you also speak on behalf of me. I'll speak for myself thank you. In fact, HOW DARE YOU! To express opinions on behalf of me or anyone besides yourself is not only impossible for you to do, it is blatantly disrespectful and rude.
How am I hawking meanness and evil? I want suspects that are severely enraged and disrespectful to authority who don't cooperate with society to learn and pay for their actions. All he had to do was show ID. All he had to do was not yell at police. All he had to do was cooperate with police. Instead he decided to lash out at police, make a scene, and not cooperate with their commands.
You are "hawking" the safety of the police and other students/civilians to be sacraficed as you give potential criminals more power. There are lines to be drawn eventually. This is not one of them.
Posts: 1504 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
You can stop calling me right wing by the way. I've told you many times I voted democrat in the last two elections. I also am pro-choice. Like I mentioned, I also believe that water boarding is torture. I also believe that we NEED to explore stem cell research. I also believe homosexuals should be allowed the right to marry and be recognized as married just like heterosexual couples.
If you continue to call me right wing, republican, of any variation thereof then the accusations will fall on deaf ears. You're debating with a left wing, liberal democrat. You're more extreme left than you think.
Posts: 1504 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by permanentjaun: How is he leaving when he is lying limp on the floor? Was he leaving before that? That hasn't been proven yet. Therefore I'm debating the case that he wasn't leaving.
What gives the cops reason to taser him? UNIDENTIFIED MALE REFUSING TO SHOW ID. THEREFORE ILLEGALLY TRESPASSING. YELLING IN A FURIOUS RAGE AT POLICE OFFICERS AND REFUSING TO COOPERATE WITH OFFICERS. NEEDED TO BE SUBDUED.
How many times do I have to state that AND that I agree it was excessive force after the initial tasering AND that the initial tasering was excessive force as well if he was already handcuffed at the time.
I never said he was resisting arrest because I never said he was getting arrested. If you lash out at cops when they want you to do something you're going to pay a price. They make decisions on if you're going to escalate the conflict to the next step. They need to act with their safety in mind. It's like you're saying a cop has no reason to bring you down if you run at him full speed screaming, because you say you were going to stop before you hit him. No. The cop has reason to bring you down.
You still think tasering is beating huh? You still haven't told me if you believe getting shot by a bullet is considered beating someone.
As for the second half of your post. Not only does it not do anything for this debate and try to insult me, you also speak on behalf of me. I'll speak for myself thank you. In fact, HOW DARE YOU! To express opinions on behalf of me or anyone besides yourself is not only impossible for you to do, it is blatantly disrespectful and rude.
How am I hawking meanness and evil? I want suspects that are severely enraged and disrespectful to authority who don't cooperate with society to learn and pay for their actions. All he had to do was show ID. All he had to do was not yell at police. All he had to do was cooperate with police. Instead he decided to lash out at police, make a scene, and not cooperate with their commands.
You are "hawking" the safety of the police and other students/civilians to be sacraficed as you give potential criminals more power. There are lines to be drawn eventually. This is not one of them.
He wasn't rufusing to cooperate...You can hear the kid say "I'm not resisting, I said I'll leave" in the video as he's being tasered. Yet they kept doing it.
This cop has a history of abuse and brutality.
Posts: 2321 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
10 SECONDS OF HELL IN QUEENS COP'S 'FRIENDLY FIRE' SPARKED BARRAGE THAT KILLED GROOM By MURRAY WEISS
November 27, 2006 -- A doomed young groom was caught in the crossfire of an undercover cop, whose bullets went clear through his car, and confused officers who returned their own blistering barrage, sources told The Post last night.
The blaze of gunfire lasted just 10 seconds outside the seedy Kalua Cabaret strip club in South Jamaica early Saturday. But it ended the life of 23-year-old, unarmed Queens dad Sean Bell, who was set to marry his high-school sweetheart and the mother of his two young daughters hours after his bachelor party at the club.
Dramatic new details of the deadly mayhem include the undercover cop at one point climbing onto the hood of Bell's car - his gun drawn and his police shield around his neck - screaming, "Police! Turn off your car! Let me see your hands!" said sources who talked to some of the cops involved in the shooting.
When Bell then tried to run down the plainclothes officer - twice - the cop began shooting, with some of his 11 bullets piercing the rear window of the man's Nissan Altima, the sources said.
This left the cop's backup unit - which was just arriving on the scene amid shattering glass and the undercover's shouts of "He's got a gun!" - thinking they were being fired upon from inside the vehicle. That's when they returned fire with another 39 bullets. One 12-year veteran, a narcotics detective, pumped 31 bullets, authorities said.
The sources recounted step-by-step how quickly things spiraled out of control after a dispute inside the club involving one of Bell's associates.
According to the sources, two undercovers were at the strip joint as part of the NYPD's new Club Enforcement Initiative. The program was started after the July slaying of 18-year-old Jennifer Moore of New Jersey, who partied at a Chelsea club before being abducted, raped and killed in a Weehawken hotel.
The undercovers, who usually worked in Manhattan, were on the last night of their two-month Queens job to try to nail the Kalua and other clubs on such violations as drugs and underage prostitution.
Inside the club, one of the plainclothes cops sat next to a woman he thought was a hooker and might proposition him, the sources said.
Suddenly, a burly man approached them and told the woman that he had heard she had gotten into a fight with a group of guys earlier in the club. It was unclear what it was over.
The man said, " 'Don't worry, baby, I got you covered,' and he takes her hand, and he rubs it across [the gun in] his waistband," a source said. "Then he tells her, 'That's what I'm here for.' "
It's unclear how the man smuggled his weapon past the metal detector outside the club. He likely was a regular who knew the bouncer at the door and may have worked there part time, helping with security, the sources said.
The undercover then went outside the club and radioed his backup to tell them there was a man inside with a gun. It was around 3:30 a.m.
While the undercover was outside, the suspect came out along with the girl and others, since it was around closing time.
The undercover watched as an argument erupted between Bell's group, which included three male pals and the beefy man with the gun, and four other men - with the woman in the middle of them, the sources said.
The woman was overheard saying to the men arguing with Bell's pals, "I'm not doing you all. I'll do one or two, but not all," according to the sources.
Around the same time, the undercover said he heard Bell's friend Joseph Guzman tell his buddies, "Yo, get my gun! Get my gun! Let's get my gun from the car! Yeah, we're gonna f- - - him up!" the sources said.
The undercover, thinking there was about to be a drive-by shooting in front of the club involving Bell's group, followed Guzman, Bell and two others to their car.
"It's getting hot! Something's going to happen! Something's going down!" the undercover radioed to his backup.
He hurried to the front of Bell's Altima, which was parked on the side of nearby Liverpool Street, and jumped in front of it.
That's when the undercover put his right leg up on the hood of the Altima and began screaming that he was a cop, the sources said.
The cop was leaning over the hood of the car to try to see the hands of the people inside and make sure they didn't have any guns, they said. But Bell floored the gas pedal and headed for the cop, the sources said, striking him and badly cutting his knee.
One of the Altima's passengers - who possibly had a gun - jumped out of the back of the car, the sources said.
Around the same time, an unmarked Toyota Camry driven by a plainclothes police lieutenant and another cop behind him pulled up, but overshot Bell's car. A police van with an officer and the narcotics detective then managed to block Bell's car in.
Bell's Altima first struck the police van in the driver's desperate bid to escape, then backed up and struck the roll-down metal doors of a commercial building behind him. He then revved his car again toward the undercover - which prompted the cop to scream, "He's got a gun!" and start firing, according to the sources, with the bullets passing through Bell's car.
"The undercover thought they had more than one gun. He thought they would do anything to get away. He was yelling, 'Let me see your hands!' " one source said.
The other cops, thinking they were under attack, started firing at the car, too.
At one point, the detective thought his gun had jammed and so reloaded his magazine and emptied the clip again at the car, firing 31 bullets.
Bell was killed, Guzman critically injured, and a third friend, Trent Benefield, was shot. They are expected to live.
Benefield later told a friend from his hospital bed that he and his buddies didn't know the undercovers were cops.
He told investigators, "I got into the car, and there was all this shooting."
It was unclear when the other four men who were originally fighting with Bell and his pals fled the scene. They were spotted leaving in a black SUV.
Bell had been arrested three times in the past: twice for drugs and one on a gun rap in a case that was sealed. Guzman has been busted nine times, including for armed robbery. He spent two stretches in state prison in the '90s. Benefield has a sealed record as a juvenile for gun possession and robbery.
Some marijuana was later found near the Altima, and investigators believe that it may have been tossed out by the group before the gunfire. Two bullet casings also were recovered from the Altima, although cops said they do not believe they were from a police gun.
The shooting of Bell, who was black, has ignited racial tensions in the city - even though the cops involved included two blacks, a Hispanic and two whites.
The five cops who fired shots were put on administrative duty. Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said it was the first time that any of the officers were involved in a shooting.
Detectives Endowment Association President Michael Palladino said the cops were justified in firing off a total of 50 bullets at unarmed men because Bell was using his car as a lethal weapon.
"Once the threat ended, so did the shooting."
A source told The Post: "They [the cops] feel completely sad about what happened. They made a decision, and they're going to live with it."
Mayor Bloomberg spoke to Bell's fiancée Saturday after the shooting, sources said.
Additional reporting by Stephanie Gaskell
murray.weiss*nypost.com
-------------------- The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits Posts: 10204 | From: NYC | Registered: Mar 2006
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