quote:Originally posted by glassman: we are in Iraq because a small group of people wanted us to be, and the truth was the first casualty...
now we have this unbelievable bill to pay...
Liberal nonsense. We could pay a little now, in taking the terrorist fight to iraq and spreading democracy to finally bring peace and stability to the mideast, perserving the world's economy, or we could pay much more later in sustaining disasters spread out over many years, including nuclear war when Israel was severely attacked and retaliated.
Does anyone other than me see that peace is breaking out in the mideast and terrorism is being defeated, directly as a result of our invasion of Iraq?
you call what we see over there peace? you have a strange dictionary....you keep returning to this so-called future where Sadam suddenly became powerful...
Art: What we see over there is peaceful compared to continued terrorists attacks on US soil. You don't see what is happening betwen Palestians and Israel? You don't Syria pulling out of Lebanon, and don't see democracy spreading to Egypt, Lebanon and elsewhere in the mideast?
Democracy and peace are coming to the mideast, directly as a reult of the US invasion ans presence in Iraq.
If we had not invade Saddam would be in power, and with UN sanctions lifted - do you disagree?
With sanctions lifted Saddam becomes richer - You don't agree?
As Sadddam has more wealth he re-arms with WMD - You don't agree?
Saddam then obtains atomic weapons - you don't agree?
Glassman: and oh yeah the WMD he was planning on using..LOL
Art: He had them and used them before against Iran and against the Kurds - this is fact. He likely trucked them to Syria, and from there to the Bekka valley in Lebanon. This will be determined.
Glassman: and now I guess you are gonna say we can pay this bill easily? maybe we can... if Iraq pays us back with oil/money? yeah, i'm gonna hold my breath on that....
Art: Won't be easy. Yes we will get sweetheart deals with Iraqi oil. Duh!
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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Art, Bush could blame the first 4 years on existing market conditions. He inherited a down market, but NOW it's time to put up or shutup.
i see a bad moon rising. local governments all over the south are failing to meet their budgets...since this is the "constituency" that elected Bush? the situation is pretty bleak for the conservatives...they need a distraction... hmmmm .... maybe Terri Schiavo will help them?
posted
one more note: peace in the mid-east has a chance now more than ever, not because we "freed" Iraq, but because Arrafat is gone..
even Secretary Rumsfeld admits that we have a serious problem in Iraq over the amount of terrorist activity/training/recruitment.... . terrorist activity has increased not decreased, if you count Iraq...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: the strange part here Art, is that oil costs twice what it did before this war andour budget deficit was under control....
not exactly looking like we are gonna have a bull market this year is IT? but peace is breaking out and we are winning? LOL
Oil would have headed up regardless as you well know (and have posted to this effect).
China, Russia, and Asia have recently been using increased oil, as have the US. Demand is exceeding production. Guess what happens as a result? I'll tell you. Liberals say, as you do, that the war in Iraq is to blame - they obviously don't understand supply and demand concepts.
Liberals won't let us drill in a tiny wasteland portion of Alaska. Again they don't understand what supply and demand means.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: we will shove peace and democracy down their throats or we will bomb them to kingdom come you mean...
I think he's got it!
Did you see those Iraqis being forced to vote at gunpoint in their recent election? Did you see how we forced them to celebrate over the election process(our CIA agents were standing behind then with guns at their backs). That is how we shoved it down their throats.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: Art, Bush could blame the first 4 years on existing market conditions. He inherited a down market, but NOW it's time to put up or shutup.
i see a bad moon rising. local governments all over the south are failing to meet their budgets...since this is the "constituency" that elected Bush? the situation is pretty bleak for the conservatives...they need a distraction... hmmmm .... maybe Terri Schiavo will help them?
quote:Originally posted by glassman: one more note: peace in the mid-east has a chance now more than ever, not because we "freed" Iraq, but because Arrafat is gone..
even Secretary Rumsfeld admits that we have a serious problem in Iraq over the amount of terrorist activity/training/recruitment.... . terrorist activity has increased not decreased, if you count Iraq...
However, Arafat was toning down and slowly moving toward peace at the point we invaded Iraq, and continued to do so up until his death. Hammas has done the same, slowly but surely. After the Israelis killed Arafat, the groundwork for peace in progress before his murder came to a more evident stage. I don't see Arafat's death as doing anything but the timing makes it appear that this was a turning pint. The actual turning point was when we invaded Iraq.
The invasion of Iraq also made Libya give up its nuclear weapons program and disarm, and this alone may have prevented a future nuclear attack by terrorists on US soil.
I ask you, would this prevention be worth the price we paid of invading Iraq? What say you also Thinkmoney and Lucy?
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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i am now watching Sean Hannity on FOX, he's "compassionately" speaking with Terri's dad...he is one of those people that CHEERED at the top of his lungs as operation shock and awe started...hypocrisy to the nth degree..
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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art, you've decided what you believe already. when someone makes a good point you usually ignore it. not always tho. there was the time G said "what good is winning a war that leaves the world a cinder?" your brilliant, enlightened response: "better than losing it!" (cracks open another beer, belches.)
if we put all our energy into diplomacy and self-defense.. (oh, another good tidbit from moore's movie - how many guys are patroling the oregon coast? one. that was funny. damned pretty landscape too...) saddam, regardless of how obnoxious, was a tin-pot dictator, with a seriously weakened army, and not enuf to eat when we went in there. your NEED for the WMD fears to be justified is what backs your suggestion that they'll turn up, buried in syria or something. give it up. iraq had nothing to do with anything. osama hates him. it's all just a construct. why can't you see that.
and even if there are some ppl happy about elections, or some positive results.. well that's only natural. we're in there. we gotta make it look good. but if that was what it was all about (happy voters).. we'd be packing up now. just give them a check to help with reconstruction and get the f out.
Factor by which and Iraqi is more likely to die today than in the last year of the Hussein regime: 2.5
Factor by which the cause of death is more likely to be violence: 58
Minimum number of countries w/a greater capacity to produce nuclear weapons than Iraq at the time of the US invasion: 35
Number of US terrorism trials brought before a jury since Sept 11, 2001: 1
Number of terrorism convictions resulting: 2
Number of them dismissed in June due to a "pattern of mistakes" by the prosecution: 2
Revenue generated by Halliburton under CEO Dick Cheney from business deals with Iraq under Sadam Hussein: $30,000,000
Estimated revenue generated by Halliburton last year through subsidiaries in Iran: $64,359,095.
Number of companies in which Tom Ridge holds stock that have a contract with the Department of Homeland Security: 7
------------ now somebody tell me why we hate hillary. i think i was busy picking my nose back then. (who ever pays attention to first ladies anyway?)
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Lucy Lastic: art, you've decided what you believe already. when someone makes a good point you usually ignore it. not always tho. there was the time G said "what good is winning a war that leaves the world a cinder?" your brilliant, enlightened response: "better than losing it!"
Art: So?
What was the good point here?
That we should surrender to anyone who invades our soil and kils our citizens rather than fight back?
I said we should fight back to win.
Lucy: if we put all our energy into diplomacy and self-defense..
Art: That's idiotic. Diplomacy doesn't work with terrorists or people like Saddam. We used diplomacy, with the UN allied with us, for 10 years with Saddam and it failed totally.
Self-defense alone will not work against terrorism. You can never adequately defend against terrorism - they will always find a crack to slip through. You have to take offensive and pre-emptive action in taking the fight to them.
Lucy: ... your NEED for the WMD fears to be justified is what backs your suggestion that they'll turn up, buried in syria or something. give it up.
Art: What happened to the WMD that Saddam had? Everyone acknoweledges that he had them, even Kerry. He did not destroy them - a few missiles were destroyed by the UN but no WMD. What happened to them in your opinion?
Art: iraq had nothing to do with anything.
Art: Saddam invaded Iran and Kuwait and wanted Saudi Arabi also. Saddam's dream was to take over the mideast and destroy Israel. Had we not invaded iraq, UN sanctions would have been lifted, Saddam would have activated his WMD (including nuclear weapons) program, and the likelihood of nuclear war, with Israel retaliating, would have been high. Those who believe Saddam would become peace loving after the US came home without invading Iraq, and no problem after UN sanctions were lifted, are nuts.
Lucy: Osama hates him.
Art: The enemy of my enemy is my friend - al Qaeda and Saddam would have gotten together. Iraqi agents met with Terry Nicholas, who helped McVeigh do the Oklahoma bombings, in the Phillipines and taught him how to make the bomb from fertilizer. Saddam thus played a mjor role in the Oklahoma bombings. Saddam tried to kill George Bush Sr.
You have no idea of the threats we averted by engaging in the Iraqi war.
I bet you think Israel was wrong to bomb Iraq in 1981 or so, wiping out Saddam's French-supplied nuclear weapons program?
You seem to want a mideast nuclear war for some reason.
L:ucy: and even if there are some ppl happy about elections, or some positive results.. well that's only natural. we're in there. we gotta make it look good.
Art: Like I said, we pointed guns at their backs and made them smile.
Lucy: but if that was what it was all about (happy voters).. we'd be packing up now. just give them a check to help with reconstruction and get the f out.
Art: Just because they are happy, to finally have a democracy, does not mean we should leave. We still want to keep the terrorism fight over there as much as we can. We want a military presence in the nmideast to: (1) use as leverage against Iran and Syria, to get Syria and Iran to stop their terrorism support and to get Iran to give up its nuclear weapos program, (2) to encourage Arabs to rise up in favor of democracy anywhere in the mideast, (3) to be a threat against Hammas and others who are trying to prevent an Israeli-Palestinian peace.
This is why we invaded Iraq and whty we need to stay in Iraq.
Lucy: [b]Factor by .................
Art: Irrelevant.
Lucy: now somebody tell me why we hate hillary.
Art: She thinks like you do. I don't hate Hillary - she scares me to death over what she might do as president, just as you do.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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Art: Diplomacy doesn't work with terrorists
LL: this is US AGAINST THEM thinking, wherein you convince yourself your opponent is monstrous (and you yourself are normal.. amazingly, even in a case where, for ex, "you" happen to be: the country responsible for nagasaki, hiroshima..! )
ART:We used diplomacy, with the UN allied with us, for 10 years with Saddam and it failed totally.
LL: sure, that was great diplomacy.. sanctions not talks! keeping food from children. awesome. great way to win friends and fix conflict. and..um... so ... you're saying it "failed".. so.. saddam attacked us? is that what you mean? cause that's what you're saying would happen if we didn't attack now.. but with 10 years of what YOU say was diplomacy... failed miserably. so how come i don't remember him attacking us..
ART: You can never adequately defend against terrorism -
LL: exactly, which is why it's much wiser to address the Reasons we are hated, and leave the innocent ppl alone. killing hundreds of thousands of people only builds more anti-US sentiment. this is plain and simple.
and terrorism is only a method used by those with no other means. to speak of fighting terrorism is like a doctor focussing on finding the right salve for tumors rather than fighting the cancer itself.
ART: Everyone acknoweledges that he had them, even Kerry.
LL: pls. stop bringing kerry into this "even kerry".. as if he's some extreme representative of the left. you know already what i thought of his campaign. speak of noam chomsky, howard zinn, daniel shore, or even ralph nader... or even howard dean...if you want to say "even this guy blablabla.."
ART: Had we not invaded iraq, UN sanctions would have been lifted, Saddam would have activated his WMD (including nuclear weapons) program, and the likelihood of nuclear war, with Israel retaliating, would have been high. Those who believe Saddam would become peace loving after the US came home without invading Iraq, and no problem after UN sanctions were lifted, are
LL: well again, all this is not true simply bcs you say it is true.
how bout if we'd just shut down the country, pulled the plug on the electricity, drop fliers telling everyone to Not be driving a car in the next 6 hours, or taking a bath, or out in the cold.....then sprinkle sleeping powder (!) over the entire city where sadam was and he wakes up in jail? you laugh, how childish. my real point is, we have great skills and resources. if we had the goal of getting saddam with as little colateral damage as possible we would have. but we don't have that goal. we have the goal of occupation. and it's wrong. you can give a bunch of reasons that sound good to you from the point of view of american arrogance.. keep syria from this, make sure iran that.. but it's simply wrong. who do with think we are? no wonder we are hated. to think that without american intervention the middle east would nuke itself is .. pathetic.
L:ucy: and even if there are some ppl happy about elections, or some positive results.. well that's only natural. we're in there. we gotta make it look good.
Art: Like I said, we pointed guns at their backs and made them smile.
LL: what's up with your reading comprehension?
at this juncture i'd like to be repetetive and irrelevant: Minimum number of countries w/a greater capacity to produce nuclear weapons than Iraq at the time of the US invasion: 35
LL...why we hate hillary. Art: She thinks like you do.
LL: my hunch is that this is inaccurate.
Art, how is it that you have all this time? you speak so much of the importance of making a contribution to society. is THIS your contribution? filling up a chat-room with pro-american-military-domination vitriol? obviously we both think the other is horribly wrong-headed. so i guess.. this has been a complete waste of time.. makes me sad and kind of ashamed.. for engaging in it..
man, everything about the landscape is depressing, the market, the state of the planet's health, the war, and even the off-topic posting puss on allcocks.
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Art: Diplomacy doesn't work with terrorists
LL: this is US AGAINST THEM thinking, wherein you convince yourself your opponent is monstrous (and you yourself are normal.. amazingly, even in a case where, for ex, "you" happen to be: the country responsible for nagasaki, hiroshima..! )
Art: It is them against us, in case you didn't realize terrorists want to kill us and don't want anything else that we can use to bribe them not to kill us (as you would want us to do, I'm sure). And what difference does it make if I realsitically regard the terrorists as our enemies? Doesn't alter the fact that we can nnot negotiate with terrorists. They want war and not peace.
ART:We used diplomacy, with the UN allied with us, for 10 years with Saddam and it failed totally.
LL: sure, that was great diplomacy.. sanctions not talks! keeping food from children. awesome. great way to win friends and fix conflict. and..um... so ... you're saying it "failed".. so.. saddam attacked us? is that what you mean? cause that's what you're saying would happen if we didn't attack now.. but with 10 years of what YOU say was diplomacy... failed miserably. so how come i don't remember him attacking us..
Art: We used diplomacy extensively, and used sanctions to reinforce diplomacy, and got nearly 20 UN resolutions against Saddam over a 10 year period, and nothing worked.
ART: You can never adequately defend against terrorism -
LL: exactly, which is why it's much wiser to address the Reasons we are hated, and leave the innocent ppl alone. killing hundreds of thousands of people only builds more anti-US sentiment. this is plain and simple.
Art: We are hated for supporting Israel, and for supporting Arab dictators in the interest of maintaining a balance of power and some stability in the mideast.
What is wrong with this?
Do you advocate that we abandon Israel and tell the Arabs to do as they wish regarding Israel?
Liberals like yourself can only whine about reality and can never offer solutions except for unrealistic fantasies like "diplomacy would have worked", etc.
Lucy:.. terrorism is only a method used by those with no other means. to speak of fighting terrorism is like a doctor focussing on finding the right salve for tumors rather than fighting the cancer itself.
Art: So how should we fight terrorism? Terrorism is a method for killers who want to kill, and not peace, and not a desperate fight for anything else but to keep on killing. What do you think terrorists are fighting for other than to kill, and to take over the whole of the mideast?
Quit whining and let us know:
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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Art: We used diplomacy extensively, and used sanctions to reinforce diplomacy, and got nearly 20 UN resolutions against Saddam over a 10 year period, and nothing worked.
Glassman: Art, i gotta cut in here...this is a LIE of the highest order...the damn sanctions did work...Saddam said he disposed of his WMD and they are gone...i suppose the DOD is lying about there being NO WMD too...LOL get a grip..
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Art: So how should we fight terrorism? Terrorism is a method for killers who want to kill, and not peace, and not a desperate fight for anything else but to keep on killing. What do you think terrorists are fighting for other than to kill, and to take over the whole of the mideast?
Glassman: again you twist the truth...nobody was suggesting we negotiate with terrorists Art, the suggestions of REASONABLE people the world over was to have negotiatins/world summit meetings with governments that are not doing enough to stop terrorsim. Form a TRUE coalition to combat it instead of this decaying coalition of the willing or what ever...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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ART: Had we not invaded iraq, UN sanctions would have been lifted, Saddam would have activated his WMD (including nuclear weapons) program, and the likelihood of nuclear war, with Israel retaliating, would have been high. Those who believe Saddam would become peace loving after the US came home without invading Iraq, and no problem after UN sanctions were lifted, are....
LL: well again, all this is not true simply bcs you say it is true.
Art: You and Glassman both keep saying this but never answer me whan i ask what you think would have happened if we had not invaded. Democracy and peace are coming to the mideast, directly as a reult of the US invasion ans presence in Iraq.
If we had not invade Saddam would be in power, and with UN sanctions lifted - do you disagree?
With sanctions lifted Saddam becomes richer - You don't agree?
As Sadddam has more wealth he re-arms with WMD - You don't agree?
Saddam then obtains atomic weapons - you don't agree?
Lucy:.... my real point is, we have great skills and resources. if we had the goal of getting saddam with as little colateral damage as possible we would have.
Art: How?
All you can do is whine!
Lucy:.. we have the goal of occupation. and it's wrong.
Art: Yes, this is exactly what al Qaeda says. Are you a member? Our invasion and occupation is only wrong from the perspective of the terrorists and terrorist supporters. Oh, and the religious nuts who believe that all violence, anytime and anywhere, is wrong.
Art: Democracy and peace are coming to the mideast, directly as a reult of the US invasion ans presence in Iraq.
L:ucy: and even if there are some ppl happy about elections, or some positive results.. well that's only natural. we're in there. we gotta make it look good.
Art: Like I said, we pointed guns at their backs and made them smile.
LL: what's up with your reading comprehension?
Art: You suggest that the US made the elections look good for the press, like making the Iraqis appear happy over the elections even though they actually were not. I think we must have had guns pointed at their backs to accomplish this, if waht you said was true. What part of this is incomprehensible?
LL...why we hate hillary.
Art: She thinks like you do.
LL: my hunch is that this is inaccurate.
Lucy: Art, how is it that you have all this time? you speak so much of the importance of making a contribution to society. is THIS your contribution? filling up a chat-room with pro-american-military-domination vitriol? obviously we both think the other is horribly wrong-headed. so i guess.. this has been a complete waste of time.. makes me sad and kind of ashamed.. for engaging in it..
Art: I believe all views should be exposed. I am a Socratarian gadfly in this regard. I know my opinions are valid and welcome any disagreement so I can show the contrast between realistic and delusional thought.
Lucy: man, everything about the landscape is depressing, the market, the state of the planet's health, the war, and even the off-topic posting puss on allcocks.
Art: Time wounds all heals.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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One way not to have "Terrorism" is by creating conditions where terrorists do not flourish. Or by having policies that dont create terrorist havens.
At the root of the "Islamic Terrorist Movement" is anti-Israel and anti-usa presence in the middle east.
We have supported Israel at the expense of USA interests and have given growth to the terrorists. And, USA and allies have put Israel in the middle east post ww2, and since then pandoras box for anti-american terrorists blossomed. With each incursion into controlling "mideast (oil), we have furthered their cause.
I am not sayin not to support israel. I am saying it has been foolish and detrimental to our interests to support israel at the cost of USA. There are interrelated causes and events that have made the mideast environment a ground for an uprising to american intrusion and control.
Our policies have helped terrorism flourish, and continue to do so.
Why do Haliburton executives get billions while so many american lives are lost for their greed? And our resources, the bill is horrendous? Why are we there for oil? Why create a dependency on oil and then support (give our money) to those that want to destroy us? I think a better solution would be to develop other energy sources ...
I think as a nation we are not unified what we should do in our best interests. Small interests have won over the general good.
1) We should create alternative energy sources, and not nuclear - solar I like
2). We should close up our borders and not let those in that will harm us. why is the border issue so difficult? Why do we wait?
3). Our policies should be focused on USA interests and screw any special interests that is harming america.
4). Lets have a national referendum on issues and terrorism----
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: Art: We used diplomacy extensively, and used sanctions to reinforce diplomacy, and got nearly 20 UN resolutions against Saddam over a 10 year period, and nothing worked.
Glassman: Art, i gotta cut in here...this is a LIE of the highest order...the damn sanctions did work...Saddam said he disposed of his WMD and they are gone...i suppose the DOD is lying about there being NO WMD too...LOL get a grip..
Not true. Saddam was given over a month to allow unrestricted UN inspections or we would invade by a specific date. If he had no WMD, why did he restrict UN inspectors, spy on their intended inspection plans, etc., and why did he choose to have us invade? Because he thought he could defeat us and thereby become the idol of the mideast. Trucks were moving to Syria just before we invaded. That Saddam had WMD, and that there is no indication at all tha these were destroyed, means that they are buried or hidden somewhere, does it not? The DOD says there are no WMD that we have yet found, in Iraq (not Lebanon or Syria or both).
Sanctions did not work, and when the US left without invading, sanctions would soon be lifted, and Saddam would get his WMD back. So how did sanctions work?
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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Maybe Sadam didnt let us invade. He may off called a bluff and lost..or it may of been his war strategy. He wanted us to invade so he (islamic terrorists) would fight us.
Is iraq better off? Are there more or less terrorists? Is Iraq now a haven for trrorists? This war is not over, simply a beginning....
posted
If we had not invade Saddam would be in power, and with UN sanctions lifted - do you disagree?
With sanctions lifted Saddam becomes richer - You don't agree?
As Sadddam has more wealth he re-arms with WMD - You don't agree?
Saddam then obtains atomic weapons - you don't agree?
Art, you're assuming that we could not have held a summit and and set a strategy using WORLD consensus to stop ALL of your "predictions"...
i absolutely disagree that Saddam would have ever gained ANY access to WMD had we continued to work WITH the world community.....we snubbed the whole world Art...now we are paying the price..
you don't listen very well...
we are listening to you tho...
FACT: Nuclear proliferation accelerated because WE supplied Pakistan with nuclear training...THEY sent it to Iran and N korea....not Iraq....
the Paki's have made ammends -sortof..
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: Art: So how should we fight terrorism? Terrorism is a method for killers who want to kill, and not peace, and not a desperate fight for anything else but to keep on killing. What do you think terrorists are fighting for other than to kill, and to take over the whole of the mideast?
Glassman: again you twist the truth...nobody was suggesting we negotiate with terrorists Art, the suggestions of REASONABLE people the world over was to have negotiatins/world summit meetings with governments that are not doing enough to stop terrorsim. Form a TRUE coalition to combat it instead of this decaying coalition of the willing or what ever...
We have done, and continue to do this. We have not been deficit in this at all. Doesn't matter if it is a world conference or conferences within the UN and with leaders of countries around the world on a country by country basis. World conferencs are talk that doesn't change things. Diplomatic pressure, in engagements with leaders on a country by country basis, with some deal cutting, are what works, and we have done this, and are doing it, as much as possible.
So, how have I twisted the truth?
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: the strange part here Art, is that oil costs twice what it did before this war andour budget deficit was under control....
not exactly looking like we are gonna have a bull market this year is IT? but peace is breaking out and we are winning? LOL
Oil would have headed up regardless as you well know (and have posted to this effect).
China, Russia, and Asia have recently been using increased oil, as have the US. Demand is exceeding production. Guess what happens as a result? I'll tell you. Liberals say, as you do, that the war in Iraq is to blame - they obviously don't understand supply and demand concepts.
Liberals won't let us drill in a tiny wasteland portion of Alaska. Again they don't understand what supply and demand means.
Art? China is the only pace where demand is up...you aren't keeping up with the markets...
there is plenty of oil, this price increase is due to a crashing dollar, which is being instigated in an economic war with China...which MAY or MAY NOT have anything to do with Iraq..
we are spread too thin..
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Thinkmoney: One way not to have "Terrorism" is by creating conditions where terrorists do not flourish. Or by having policies that dont create terrorist havens.
At the root of the "Islamic Terrorist Movement" is anti-Israel and anti-usa presence in the middle east.
We have supported Israel at the expense of USA interests and have given growth to the terrorists. And, USA and allies have put Israel in the middle east post ww2, and since then pandoras box for anti-american terrorists blossomed. With each incursion into controlling "mideast (oil), we have furthered their cause.
Art: Kill the Jews.
Thinkmoney: I am not sayin not to support israel.
Art: Let the Jews live.
Thinkmoney: I am saying it has been foolish and detrimental to our interests to support israel at the cost of USA. Our policies have helped terrorism flourish, and continue to do so.
Art: Kill the Jews.
Thinkmoney: Why do Haliburton executives get billions while so many american lives are lost for their greed? And our resources, the bill is horrendous? Why are we there for oil? Why create a dependency on oil and then support (give our money) to those that want to destroy us? I think a better solution would be to develop other energy sources ...
Art: Bring on a total disruption of mideast oil supply due to terrorism and war (nuclear eventually), with total chaos in the mideast, in which millions die, and a world wide depresion results, with anarchy, robbery, and killing everywhere as people starve. Having little oil is a good thing indeed. It is not important to insure a stable mideast and continued supply of mideast oil.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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thinkmoney has good plan IMO I think as a nation we are not unified what we should do in our best interests. Small interests have won over the general good.
1) We should create alternative energy sources, and not nuclear - solar I like
2). We should close up our borders and not let those in that will harm us. why is the border issue so difficult? Why do we wait?
3). Our policies should be focused on USA interests and screw any special interests that is harming america.
4). Lets have a national referendum on issues and terrorism----
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Thinkmoney: I think as a nation we are not unified what we should do in our best interests. Small interests have won over the general good. Our policies should be focused on USA interests and screw any special interests that is harming america.
Art: The general population, particularly liberals, have no clue whatever as to what is in our best interests or how to achieve it.
Thinkmoney: We should create alternative energy sources, and not nuclear - solar I like
Art: Yes! Why is this not being done? Must be because the big oil companies are paying off politicians, and alternative energy companies, and individaul inventers , not only in this country but in every country in the world, to disallow such development!
Thinkmoney: We should close up our borders and not let those in that will harm us. why is the border issue so difficult? Why do we wait?
Art: We should close up our borders and not let those in that will harm us. why is the border issue so difficult? Why do we wait?
Thinkmoney: Lets have a national referendum on issues and terrorism----
Art: Let's talk about it for 100 years.
Have any of you people ever attended busines meetings, conferences, etc.? Don't you realize what a total waste of time these things are? The decisions are always made behind the scenes by small groups of key people who know what they are doing, cutting through the mountains of BS and grandstanding, and getting down to the core issues.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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posted
thinkmoney: Maybe Sadam didnt let us invade. He may off called a bluff and lost..or it may of been his war strategy. He wanted us to invade so he (islamic terrorists) would fight us.
Is iraq better off? Are there more or less terrorists? Is Iraq now a haven for trrorists? This war is not over, simply a beginning....
Art: Most Iraqis say yes - they are better off. Deal with it.
Iraq is a magnet for terorist, drawing them from other countries, bringing the cockroaches out from hiding, where we can kill them. This is the only way to do it.
Thinkmoney: Unless, we get smarter...
Art: Yes, leave Iraq and let the terrorist take over and have the mideast, and eventually wage nuclear war with Israel. This is what would have happened if we had not invaded Iraq.
Real smart.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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If we had not invade Saddam would be in power, and with UN sanctions lifted - do you disagree?
With sanctions lifted Saddam becomes richer - You don't agree?
As Sadddam has more wealth he re-arms with WMD - You don't agree?
Saddam then obtains atomic weapons - you don't agree? [/b]
Glassman: Art, you're assuming that we could not have held a summit and and set a strategy using WORLD consensus to stop ALL of your "predictions"...
Art: So, we could get the UN (only meaningful world conference body) to not lift sanctions? They were pressuring us, led by France, Germany, China and Russia, to lift sanctions, and we would not be able to stop them in the future, so we avoided this inevitablity by invading Iraq.
Glasman: i absolutely disagree that Saddam would have ever gained ANY access to WMD had we continued to work WITH the world community.....we snubbed the whole world Art...now we are paying the price..
Art: Total nonsense. There would be no way to prevent Saddam from reactivating his WMD program, and remember, France, Germany, Russia, N. Korea, and China were supply him with materials right up until the time we invade Iraq, and would have continued to do so if we had not invaded. France, Germany, and Russia were assuring Saddam tha they would not allow the US to ever invade Iraq, and were doing this right up until the time we did invade.
This is the world community that you assert would never allow Saddam to develop WMD?
Glassman: you don't listen very well...we are listening to you tho...
Art: LOL
Glasman: FACT: Nuclear proliferation accelerated because WE supplied Pakistan with nuclear training...THEY sent it to Iran and N korea....not Iraq...
Art: So? We prevented India from Taking over Pakistan by setting up a nuclear balance of power. Iraq was negotiating to get fissionable material from the rogue Pakistani official who sold it to Libya, N. Korea, and Iran to build nuclear weapons. Who knows how much they got from Russsia. What is your point with this?
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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posted
Art: Our invasion and occupation is only wrong from the perspective of the terrorists and terrorist supporters.
Lucy: that's delusional.
Art: You suggest that the US made the elections look good for the press, like making the Iraqis appear happy over the elections even though they actually were not.
Lucy: No, I suggest that the ppl who appeared on TV to have appreciated the elections, really did appreciate the elections. that, essentially there can be good, positive outcomes, in an overall situation which is wrong. that indeed there would OF COURSE be some positive ---bcs we are trying to look like well-intentioned people. many who are involved ARE well-intentioned people. but also bcs reality is usually like that. good and bad things mixed in.--- the question is, does that make our invasion right? for me, it doesn't. Art: All you can do is whine!
Lucy: is that what all dissent is to you? whining?
i am not whining. I am arguing. you have simplified reality into a picture w/ ppl separated into neat categories. you have put me in the "liberal" box, a group of ppl which you have already identified as "whiners." this is an example of how you are adding your own ideas/mental constructs to incoming phenomena and not noticing that you're doing it (like we discussed earlier on some "reality" thread. you actually believe i'm a "whiner"... as a solid reality, existing in the world, independent of your projecting onto my typed sentences "whining".)
Lucy:.... my real point is, we have great skills and resources. if we had the goal of getting saddam with as little colateral damage as possible we would have. Art: How?
Lucy: i gave you the sleeping powder example. we have the experts, the resources; think-tanks galore. if their mission were: get saddam, minimal collateral damage, they could have shocked and awed us with something revolutionary...like sleeping powder.
(you will respond "nonsense!" or "nice fantasy!" and we are back to our boring cyclical routine of one of us stating an opinion as if it's fact, and the other countering with a different opinion, also stated as if it is fact.)
Art: Democracy and peace are coming to the mideast, directly as a reult of the US invasion ans presence in Iraq.
Lucy: (case in point.)
Lucy: maybe, but today, an iraqi is at least 2.5 times more likely to die than the last year of sadam's reign. when i posted this you said it was irrelevant. you might argue that such a thing (collateral damage) is necessary on the road to peace. i believe this is outdated thinking. and i don't think that makes me a whiner or an idealistic fool. ... i think rather, that it is a visionary point of view.
any time ppl speak of changing something major about the way we live (slavery, for ex.) most ppl tend to respond: "that's crazy it's always been that way, it will never change."
==============================
It is my belief that whereas the twentieth century has been a century of war and untold suffering, the twenty-first century should be one of peace and dialogue. As the continued advances in information technology make our world a truly global village, I believe there will come a time when war and armed conflict will be considered an outdated and obsolete method of settling differences among nations and communities. -the Dalai Lama
Whatever happiness is in the world has arisen from a wish for the welfare of others; whatever misery there is has arisen from indulging selfishness. -Buddhist Proverb
Even in the case of individuals, there is no possibility to feel happiness through anger. If in a difficult situation one becomes disturbed internally, overwhelmed by mental discomfort, then external things will not help at all. However, if despite external difficulties or problems, internally one’s attitude is of love, warmth, and kindheartedness, then problems can be faced and accepted. -the Dalai Lama
Our problems, both those we experience externally such as wars, crime and violence and those we experience internally as emotional and psychological suffering will not be solved until we address this underlying neglect of our inner dimension. That is why the great movements of the last hundred years and more--democracy, liberalism, socialism, and Communism--have all failed to deliver the universal benefits they were supposed to provide, despite many wonderful ideas. A revolution is called for, certainly, but not a political, an economic, or a technical revolution. We have had enough experience of these during the past century to know that a purely external approach will not suffice. What I propose is a spiritual revolution. -His Holiness the Dalai Lama
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glassman: terrorists are fighting to destroy our ECONOMY tht's how you are twisting it...
that's why they attcked the World Trade Center
Art: I have always said that terrorist seek to destroy us, and destroying opur economy is a mode of attack among others.
Where did I distort the truth here or elswhere?
Glassman: you say liberals wanted to negotiate with terrorists: that's twisting the truth..
Art: How? Some here are suggesting we should understand and reason with them, correct the thigs we did to make them unhappy, etc. I have heard many liberals say this.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
IP: Logged |
posted
Art: Total nonsense. There would be no way to prevent Saddam from reactivating his WMD program, and remember, France, Germany, Russia, N. Korea, and China were supply him with materials right up until the time we invade Iraq, and would have continued to do so if we had not invaded. France, Germany, and Russia were assuring Saddam tha they would not allow the US to ever invade Iraq, and were doing this right up until the time we did invade.
Glassman: Art, you are one paranoid dude... the whole world was supplying Saddam with NON-existant WMD materials? LOL....admit it you just love to HATE...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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posted
What I find interesting is that the progression of events may lead to an allout war in the middle east, maybe nuclear. yep, Iraq is a magnet for terrorists, we placed the magnet there.
And the magnet is attracting more and more. Seems like the ants are multiplying....and thet are red (deadly).
I prefer we be more sane and change course to avoid a possible ctastrophe. There are those that say we cant turn back..I ask at what price so we stay? Do we stay until all our resources are tied up there and americans at home quality of life diminishes?
Hard issue is we never should of gone. So, how do we get out without loss of credibility or more chaos in mideast? COALITION we need more in the world to help us........
We need a solution to this mess, I will use one baromeer, the killing increases. In war, casualties speak for themselves. When the killings stop, then we can see improvement. as the killing go on and more, war is gaining strength.
How do we win? There must be a solutuion that usa with partneres(allies) can agree on. we must use a coalition to win. I doubt we can do it on our own. Too many forces are against us and too many appeasing.
We have to get a coalition. But, why are so many unwilling? Are americans willing to win this war at all expense? These islamic extremeists are.
we as a nation have much to ponder. I dont have all the answers but I do think our policies have not been for the general good.
so, my assertion to diminish and void teh dependency on oil may be the best thing america will do for itself. I bet if we spend half on solar reearch of what we spend on this war, we probably would have lessened if not obliterated our oil dependency on the mid east.
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