The God of the new testament tried to stop evil with love.
Sometimes you can eliminate evil with love but just as often you must fight it or it will grow and hurt many others down the road. I think this is what you do in your life Kate - love others when you can but don't let evil take advantage of your love or hurt others you care for.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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The error here is that you assume marriage belongs to the government and legal system... a little history review and you will discover that marriage was invented by the church. Marriage is a religious institution. In 1535 when martin luther and william tyndale protested and we protestants were born they were rebelling against catholic excesses... So they said there are 2 sacrements baptism/lords supper. They felt the catholics had to many. So they rejected marriage as a sacrement and it then became fair game for the government. But if you back up and say those dudes made an error. And if they knew what was happening to marriage they surely would agree that marrage was a sacrement and that it was divinely established and that it was the property of the church... And since the founding constitution of the church the bible says its between a man and a woman. And since it was demonstrated with adam and eve. You see marriage was around long before the USA or parliment or any human government. Who are we to tamper with something that is older than ever country and ever legal system. There are certian certianities that were established from the begining and will always "be" with our without your or me. One example is gravity. Tomorrow all of us could meet and use democracy to vote out gravity but I would not want to be the fellow to test it. We could all meet and vote to change the name of Mom but she would still be mom... and we could all meet and change the name of the earth. We could call it Mars even if we all agreed on it... Just like the king with no clothes... he was still naked. So marriage was divinely established and steve and bob can do what ever they want but on the last day when we all bow before the throne I have a feeling that the we may find the inventer of marriage has differnt standards....
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yeah, blueranger, thats your opinion. But do you think that your government should force others to accept it? given the current situation?
the government could stop marrying people period, and bring it back only to the church... something I completely agree with. You'd be surprized how quickly gays would just form their own churches and marry there.
But as long as the government denies gays the right to marry while affording to others on the basis of sexual identity, it is wrong. Its oppression and a double standard plain and simple.
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Well, friend being from canada you will find all this out before we do....and you all have your charter of rights and so on... but it still boils down to a bottom line. You all can vote tomorrow to change the name of a cow to a pig... and even if every canadan agreed on this and you wrote it into the charter do you really think that a cow would be a pig...we here in the states voted a few years back that antelope and jack rabbits could marry and now we have jack-alopes running all over the west. So you need to be careful because i think that one day we will have to give an account...
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Yeah, and you can say that gays can't get married... but, if they just say they are married anyways... aren't you just contradiciting yourself? Who are YOU to define marriage? Who is anyone to define marriage?
You might think God did, others disagree, and their rights should be upheld.
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well, i am not defining it...its defination came along long before there was a canada... also long before i was ever born..
your couple can say there married all day long. And you can even give them a legal piece of paper. you can even take a vote and make a law... and wear a ring..
and tomorrow the pres and congress can change the name of the sun and we all can call it the moon. and we can pass a law, and even arrest people who say its not the moon... but at the end of the day it will still be the sun..
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No, its not my opinion... people were getting married before there was a canada... and i am only 41 and there were people married long before i came to be... so this is not opinion this is a fact...
canada is not a very old country and people were married long before there was a canada..
marriage was around before the charter of rights, even before the bill of rights...(thats why it was not mentioned) marriage fell into what was defined as "We hold these truths to be self evident" marriage was around before the magna carta... in fact marriage was around even before the 10 commandments....
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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness
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hmmm... so by denying gays the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... we should abolish the government and institute a new one? Sounds good to me!
But seriously... what is the point your trying to make with that? The certain 'truths' are self-evident? Well, marriage isn't listed there. Governments are no longer instituted among men, but men and women. Their is an extension of what was once a 'truth' right there...
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we hold these truths. this acknowledges that there are certian things that just are... such as the right to eat. the right to be born.. the right to life... the right to breath...the right to marry... the right to bare children....
when ever these basic rights are violated its called tyranny...and it is not required to be written into law...its wrong to kill someone even if there was not law saying it...
we hold these truths... acknowledges that there is a higher law... and china can make a one child law... canada can make a marrage law... and the US can make an abortion law... and tomorrow we can all vote to call a cow a pig but that changes nothing...
in fact you should go perform some of the cermonies yourself and see if it means anything..
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OK... so the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness just doesn't matter for gays wishing to marry then does it according to your argument?
Gays have a basic right to be treated equally, and violating these rights is called oppression.
"its wrong to kill someone even if there was not law saying it..."
So I guess your against the Iraq war then? Or does this ultimate, self-evident and uncompromisable truth of yours have a loophole???
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here is a good test for you.... try this......
A man and a woman can come to me and we can get a group of people together and they can stand before me and make there vows and I can say "by the power of God I declare you man and wife" and those folks would be married...i could write it in the back of there bible and they would be married anywhere on the planet...even on mars.
the license is just a paper that records the event. the license is not the event but the record of the event..and there married with or without it...
posted
me, my bible, the familes and friends, the bride and groom can go down to the little local church (not necessary but nice) and We can write the date in the back of the bible and these folks would be married...
Now the premier of Canada, and even the head of the church in canada could stand before parliment and perform a cermony and even issue a written license.....
Who do you think would be really married????/
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I get EXACTLY what your saying... and I agree with it... you can define things however you damn well please and it doesn't change whats actually there.
That doesn't mean that gay marriage is wrong at all, because to gays... whats actually there, 2 loving committed people, is the same whether its two men or two woman or a man and a woman. The fact that you disagree with that definition and that you see marriage as being something inately between a man and a woman doesn't change the fact that THEY percieve marriage as something inately between 2 loving people irregardless of gender. Understand?
You however are completely ignoring my questions because you don't have an effective argument against them.
Uberly nerdness coming up...
"You are beaten"
Darth Vader to Luke, Empire Strkes Back
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I am not ignoring your question I am staying on the subject...
"That doesn't mean that gay marriage is wrong at all"
you see there is a right and a wrong and I am not the guy who made that up either.. it came long before me... and the defination of right and wrong is fixed.. its not whats i believe is right and what you believe is right... there is just one right...
take the test, and in about a 100 years or so you and i can stand before the one who did make the definations and ask which one was really married...
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"you see there is a right and a wrong and I am not the guy who made that up either.. it came long before me... and the defination of right and wrong is fixed.. its not whats i believe is right and what you believe is right... there is just one right..."
that is what ****YOU**** believe, it is not neccessarily what is true. Get that through your ignorant head....
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If your not ignoring my argument, then answer these questions in my last post....
" OK... so the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness just doesn't matter for gays wishing to marry then does it according to your argument?
Gays have a basic right to be treated equally, and violating these rights is called oppression.
"its wrong to kill someone even if there was not law saying it..."
So I guess your against the Iraq war then? Or does this ultimate, self-evident and uncompromisable truth of yours have a loophole??? "
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well, its not what i believe... its what i know.
you see if I toss a rock off a building it falls. wheather I believe it or not...
your third grade teacher told you that whats right for you may not be right for someone else.. but she lied to you...I am sorry to tell you that.
thats called a world view or a paradime.. and words like believe and opion are freely tossed about and it is true we see the world through our own sun glasses... and I will admit i am probably wrong a lot more often then i am right... but using scientific principals i have established that every time i drop a rock it falls... and this is also true for everyone I have ever know. When we drop rocks they fall... we call this the law of gravity...So even though I have my own beliefs, world view, and opions the rock still falls when dropped..
so you see marriage is like gravity its fixed you can walk out side in canada and look at a pair of those canadian ducks to test this... watch them waddle around... then drop a rock and test the law of gravity....
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Yeah, when two people love eachother and agree to commit to doing so for the rest of eachother's lives, its the same whether irregardless of their genders. Its not what I believe... its what I know.
My argument is now officially at least as good as yours. Your rock anology doesnt work with the marriage debate. Try to show me how gays married are not a marriage. If it looks like a duck, smells like duck, eats worms like a duck, then by golly... its a duck!!!
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well your in canada go out and check out the ducks and the geese and see if you can find a pair of married male ducks...
in order to help you with this becuase it applies to other things not just marriage... you should always carry a rock with you and i recommend that you drop it about 10 times a day.. in fact in the begining you should probably do it 100 times a day..
remember marriage is just a small part of it.. think about abortion.. the right to be born... the right to life.. the right to bear children (china) the right to breath... the right to eat..
remember that the dropping of the rock is not an analogy... its a law...and marriage is a law..
we call this natural law...notice the ducks...
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another good example is time... you can vote to change it... you can even vote to suspend it but tomorrow still comes and your one day older..
just imagine that there were no humans on this planet.. and a couple of aliens were surveying earth. they could define time... they could define gravity... and they could look at the wild life ducks, geese, and so on. and extrapelate that the other spices paired into male and female pair for reporduction..
they could know all this with out ever seeing a human just by applying scientif principals...
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no question animals do all the same evil things we do..animals eat one another and even eat there children..
because we are so much like the animals it proves my point even more...when the female dog comes into heat the male shows up... and the canadian duck mates for life.
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haha, you've contradicted yourself so many times I don't even know where to begin...
You made the argument that you can tell gays they can't marry because 'in nature' marriage is between a man and a woman only. And to prove this, you implied that I couldn't find a pair of male ducks. You also said its like gravity.
But then I disproved that because their are in fact gay animals...
So now YOUR back to having to prove your point. Because saying that 'animals do the same evil things' doesn't get you anywhere, because, once again, thats your OPINION that its evil. You tried to prove that it wasn't your opinion but in fact a natural law, but then I obliterated your argument.
its not my arguement...I am not the one who established that if you drop a rock it will fall. I am not the one who created marriage...
In fact he don't need me to defend marriage...
I say, go ahead and exercies that free will.. and marry your buddy steve. have the biggest church wedding you can have and get the biggest license..
then one day i promise you that you will stand before the creator and you can ask the one who established marriage if you were married...
you see you can argue about who will win the hockey game but once the game is over you can't argue about it because somebody one.. and it becomes fact...
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At one point? I just went over step by step how I succesfully countered your proof that gay marriage is unnatural.
"I say, go ahead and exercies that free will.. and marry your buddy steve. have the biggest church wedding you can have and get the biggest license.."
ahh, nice, I win!!! This is all I wanted... the admittance that gays should be allowed to marry. And since, if hypothetically I were gay which I'm not... what if I don't believe I'll be standing before a creator debating marriage?
"you see you can argue about who will win the hockey game but once the game is over you can't argue about it because somebody one.. and it becomes fact... "
Thats what you believe about gay marriage and god, but you can't prove it.
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what if I don't believe I'll be standing before a creator debating marriage?
well friend here is one thing we can agree on.. i don't believe you will stand before the creator debating marriage...either
in fact when you stand before the creator you will remember the rock always falls...you will drop to your knees and you will know that there is a right and a wrong...it will all of a sudden become crystal clear to you...
you want have any interest in this rediclous craziness...
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Well, I don't think thats how its going to go down. I think it will be more like this...
blueranger: Dear God, I hated all those faggots just like you asked!!
Jesus: What the **** are you talking about? That stuff in the old testament right next to sacraficing 40 goats if your urine doesn't smell right?
blueranger: uhhh, gee, yeah...
Jesus: Why didn't you listen to my golden rule, to love you neighbour? What did gays getting their freak on do to hurt you?
blueranger: well gee...
Jesus: You were well intentioned, so you still get into heaven, but your going to have to get on your knees and apologize to every gay creature first...
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well, im not going to hell for wanting to see people who love eachother be able to have that love acknowledged like everyone else does, its inevitable
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