posted
I used to stick my ear up real close to the radio when the battery was about to go. I wanted so bad to hear the "Lone Ranger" but it came on at milking time. I wonder if my mom knew how much milk was getting left in the udder of that old cow just so I could get back to the house in time for "The Lone Ranger".
Posts: 1005 | From: Grapevine, TX 76051 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Yeah, aint no spring chicken here....lol My favorite was "Lights Out". Frank Gallup was the announcer and he used to scare the bejeebers out of me....is that how bejeebers is spelled??
-------------------- If I give you bad information, please feel free to sue me. I have nothing left anyway. Ed Posts: 1772 | From: Oxford, PA, USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ed19363: My streamer keeps flashing 0.00 as the high....this cannot be good.
It can be good if the nss are being cleaned from the books.
Great answer if that is indeed what is happening. Dont go getting my hopes up again...LOL...just figuring out how to deduct $8000 from next year's tax bill....
Would I do that ed? I'm sure Will will call me a pumper now. lol That's okay Will. I don't mind.
Posts: 1005 | From: Grapevine, TX 76051 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I figure there are no bashers or pumpers here. Just a bunch of investors trying to see the light at the end of this long tunnel....
-------------------- If I give you bad information, please feel free to sue me. I have nothing left anyway. Ed Posts: 1772 | From: Oxford, PA, USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I would hope that the SEC is about to pull the plug on this, stopping all electric power, hence no more light. I would also think they will seal the tunnel with some concrete, so it can't be resurrected....(sorry for your losses)...JMHO.....
-------------------- Marty When I was born, I was granted a visitors pass to earth. I will enjoy everyday until it has expired. You should too ;) Posts: 1740 | From: NJ, USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Where is wallace? I figured he would be good for a post about how he too used to listen to an old battery operated radio and how, on dry days, you had to go out and pour water around the ground rod leading to the antenna ( a wire stretch from two poles and then leading to a ground rod ) in order to get reception. Come on man!!! You are letting me down.
Posts: 1005 | From: Grapevine, TX 76051 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I guess someone needs to explain VWAP to me. My admittedly poor understanding of it is that it's just the price at which the majority of the days trades took place. How can it be .18 or .30 or really anything higher than .0001? Do mistake aka "fat finger" trades count? Little help here.
Posts: 5729 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by legaleagle: No Urban isn't buying back anymore. The deal was cut, the money has been paid to CMKX for settlement with the shareholders. As part of the "deal" Urban agreed to put the balance of the treasury shares, 97 billion, into the market for the MM's to buy back to cover the naked shorts. 42 billion shares traded Monday, 58 billion traded today. That's 100 billion in two trading days. 97 billion balance of the treasury shares; about 3 billion in weak hands, scared off by the suspension. Most of those 58 billion were traded in about two hours this afternoon, and several brokerages shut down buying, including Ameritrade. They are still allowing "sells", but no buys. The reason, all treasury shares have been exhausted. Expect a PR soon on the "settlement" amounts and terms. Of course ALL IN MY OPINION.
"A trading benchmark particularly used in pension plans. VWAP is calculated by adding up the dollars traded for every transaction (price times shares traded) and then dividing by the total shares traded for the day."
Now, can someone please explain to me how a stock that has traded no higher than .0002 in the last six months, can on any given day have a vwap higher than .0002?
Posts: 5729 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Well, UpMan, if they won't answer you I guess I'll have to. You went to some official recognized generally accepted site for the definition/formula. Now consider this, that site is part of the conspiracy, and they changed the formula this morning after "the deal" was struck. If you go ask Dr. D or Sterling, (those types), you will get the secret multiplier that your "official site" failed to publish as of "the deal" date.
quote:Originally posted by Upside: Here's the definition I found for vwap:
"A trading benchmark particularly used in pension plans. VWAP is calculated by adding up the dollars traded for every transaction (price times shares traded) and then dividing by the total shares traded for the day."
Now, can someone please explain to me how a stock that has traded no higher than .0002 in the last six months, can on any given day have a vwap higher than .0002?
-------------------- A million seconds is 13 days. A billion seconds is 31 years. Posts: 4893 | From: Burbank IL USA | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Only explxnation I can think of. I saw .0000 /.0001 / .0002 / and a corrected high of .0005 today. Add, divide, multiply, subtract, or do anything you like, and you will get .0001 to .0002.
quote:Originally posted by Upside: Is that it? I don't have the secret multiplier?
-------------------- A million seconds is 13 days. A billion seconds is 31 years. Posts: 4893 | From: Burbank IL USA | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
My hunch is that the actual number is .00018 but even that sounds high to me.
Posts: 5729 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
When I was watching it at 3PM EST. The trades were going thru at .00, then a trade would go thru at .0001 in green..[.00 ]meant the price was below .0000
Posts: 10729 | From: oregon | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Upside: Here's the definition I found for vwap:
"A trading benchmark particularly used in pension plans. VWAP is calculated by adding up the dollars traded for every transaction (price times shares traded) and then dividing by the total shares traded for the day."
Now, can someone please explain to me how a stock that has traded no higher than .0002 in the last six months, can on any given day have a vwap higher than .0002?
Upside, my understanding is that there is an sec rule which allows mms to trade the volume weighted average price to acquire shares to "buy in". In other words, If I say to my broker, I want certs for my shares of cmkx and my broker tells me that there are no more certs, I can require him to "buy in". He then has to go to the market maker who sold him the shares and say something like, "okay... I have to have certs. I am willing to pay .0004 for them. The mm says I don't have them. My broker says, "okay you have to get them. The mm then goes to another mm and says I am willing to pay .0009 for certs and so on and so on. However, this is all behind the scenes. You and I can still buy as we could today at .0001 but we are not getting certs.
Posts: 1005 | From: Grapevine, TX 76051 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
No offence dwman but based on what you're telling me, this cmkx vwap number is all behind the scenes and we know nothing about it so it's really just another concocted theory, right?
Posts: 5729 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Upside: No offence dwman but based on what you're telling me, this cmkx vwap number is all behind the scenes and we know nothing about it so it's really just another concocted theory, right?
Could be. But it came from an ex market maker.
Posts: 1005 | From: Grapevine, TX 76051 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Told ya, you didn't know the secret multiplier.
quote:Originally posted by Upside: No offence dwman but based on what you're telling me, this cmkx vwap number is all behind the scenes and we know nothing about it so it's really just another concocted theory, right?
-------------------- A million seconds is 13 days. A billion seconds is 31 years. Posts: 4893 | From: Burbank IL USA | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Okay, but remember, if your broker tells you he does not have certs for the shares you hold, tell him you are calling for a "buy in". See what happens.
Posts: 1005 | From: Grapevine, TX 76051 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Upside: I'm going back to my original theory then.
-------------------- A million seconds is 13 days. A billion seconds is 31 years. Posts: 4893 | From: Burbank IL USA | Registered: Feb 2004
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REG 2004-53 Rulings Regulation SHO Locate and Delivery Requirements
On July 28, 2004, the SEC adopted Regulation SHO, Short Sales, under the Securities Exchange Act of 1934.1 Among other things, Regulation SHO specifies new locate and delivery requirements applicable to short sales of equity securities. These new locate and delivery requirements apply whether or not a "tick" test or "bid" test applies to the trade. In addition, Regulation SHO specifies new delivery requirements applicable to long sales of securities. These new locate and delivery requirements for short sales and long sales are all effective on January 3, 2005. The delivery requirements for long sales are covered by Rule 203(a) of Regulation SHO, which completely replaces SEC Rule 10a-2 (Requirements for Covering Purchases) and provides that if a broker or dealer knows or should know that a sale of an equity security is marked "long," then the broker or dealer must make delivery when due and cannot use borrowed securities to do so. There are three exceptions specified in the new rule.
Locate and Delivery Requirements for Short Sales (regardless of tick), Rule 203(b) of Regulation SHO
Prior to effecting a short sale in any equity security for another person or for its own account, a broker or dealer must "locate" securities available for borrowing. That means the broker or dealer must (1) borrow the security or enter into an arrangement to borrow it or (2) have "reasonable grounds" to believe that the security can be borrowed so that it can be delivered on the due date.
The "locate" must be made and documented prior to effecting a short sale. "Easy to Borrow" lists may provide "reasonable grounds" under the second alternative above, as long as the information used to generate such a list of readily available securities is less than 24 hours old.
Exception to the locate requirement: Short sales executed by market makers (including specialists and options market makers) in connection with "bona-fide market making activities". This exception does not include activity that (1) is related to speculative selling strategies or investment purposes of the market maker and (2) is disproportionate to its usual market making patterns or practices in that security. These new locate and delivery requirements apply to all short sales in ETFs. The SEC declined to provide a blanket exception for ETFs from the new locate and delivery requirements because of high levels of delivery fails in some ETFs. New Delivery Requirements for Securities with Substantial Delivery Failures.
These new rules require that, if any clearing member has a fail to deliver position at a registered clearing agency (e.g., NSCC) in a "threshold security" for 13 consecutive settlement days, the participant must immediately close out the fail to deliver position (whether resulting from short sales or long sales) by purchasing securities of like kind and quantity. "Threshold securities" are securities with a large number of delivery failures as defined by SEC rules.
Exception: The foregoing closeout requirements do not apply to the amount of a fail to deliver position that the clearing member has on the settlement day immediately preceding the day that the security became a "threshold security." However, if the fail to deliver position at the clearing agency is later reduced below the position that existed on the settlement day immediately preceding the day that the security became a "threshold security," then that lower amount will be the amount of the fail to deliver position that does not have to be closed out. Each listing marketplace will be responsible for calculating and publishing a daily list of the "threshold securities" for which it is the primary listing market. The downloadable list of Amex "threshold securities" will be available each day by 12:00 midnight ET under the Trading Data menu item on AmexTrader, which can be accessed at Internet address www.amex.com/amextrader. The file will also be available via public FTP at Internet address ftp://amex.com/amextrader. The full path to reach the file will be provided at a future date. The initial list of "threshold securities" will be published on Monday, January 10, 2005 and will be based on delivery failure data for the period January 3-7. The SEC did not provide a general market maker/specialist exception to the close out requirements for fails to deliver in "threshold securities" that remain for 13 consecutive settlement days.
Exception: Registered Options Traders and specialists are allowed to sell short "threshold securities" in order to hedge options positions (or adjust such hedges) that were created prior to the underlying security becoming a "threshold security." (Note that there is no corresponding hedging exception for market makers and specialists in stocks or equity-traded products such as ETFs). If a clearing member has a fail to deliver position at a registered clearing agency in a "threshold security" for 13 consecutive settlement days, the clearing member and any broker or dealer for which it clears transactions (including any market maker that would otherwise be entitled to rely on the market maker exception to the locate requirement) may not accept a short sale order in the "threshold security" from another person (including market makers), or effect a short sale in the "threshold security" for its own account, without borrowing the security or entering into a bona-fide arrangement to borrow the security, until the clearing member closes out the fail to deliver position by purchasing securities of like kind and quantity. A clearing member that complies with this pre-borrowing requirement after the 13th consecutive settlement day will still be in violation of Regulation SHO if the member fails to continue to make good faith efforts to completely close out the fail to deliver position. A specialist on the Amex that becomes subject to the pre-borrowing requirement described in the preceding paragraph with respect to one of its specialty securities should expect to have that security reallocated to another specialist ("pass the book"). The allocation will be restored to the original specialist if and when the specialist is no longer subject to the pre-borrowing requirement with respect to that security.
Some firms have requested clarification as to whether, for purposes of avoiding imposition of the Regulation SHO pre-borrowing requirement for further short sales of "threshold securities," the SEC will allow immediate credit to be given for a buy-in on the morning of the 14th day following the 13 consecutive settlement days of delivery failure, or whether such credit will not be available until the buy-in has settled in another three business days. In the latter case, it would be necessary to do a buy-in after 10 consecutive days of delivery failure (or earlier) in order to receive credit for the buy-in in time to avoid the pre-borrowing requirement that becomes effective on the 14th day. The SEC has not yet stated its opinion on this issue. Members and member firms are responsible for ascertaining how this issue is resolved. While the Amex will make every effort to provide notification regarding the resolution of this issue, members and member firms have an obligation to look to other sources for this information, such as the SEC and/or the Securities Industry Association.
A clearing member may allocate a portion of its fail to deliver position to another registered broker or dealer for which it clears trades or for which it is responsible for settlement, based on such broker or dealer's short position. The closeout responsibility for the allocated portion of the fail to deliver position then shifts to the second broker or dealer.
For a more comprehensive summary of the new locate and delivery requirements for short sales, see SEC Release No. 34-50103 (Short Sales; Final Rule).
Questions regarding the above may be directed to me, David Fisch, at 212-306-1450 or to Bill Love in the Amex Office of General Counsel at 212-306-1789.
Posts: 1005 | From: Grapevine, TX 76051 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Ok dw but just in case, I'm assuming your blackbird gun is loaded and at the ready?
Posts: 5729 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2003
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Questionable Innovation: System Hides Block Trades From the Market By Christopher H. Schmitt Staff Reporter 6/23/00 4:36 PM ET
One recent morning, two stock traders "met" in a closet-sized computer system atop a downtown office building in Philadelphia. There, in the anonymity of cyberspace, they agreed to trade 10,000 shares of Wal-Mart Stores Inc. (WMT:NYSE - news).
Nothing unusual about that. Computerized matching systems for big institutional traders have long been a fixture on Wall Street. But there was a big difference. These two players agreed to the trade without knowing the price. Before the start of trading, they had agreed to settle up at the end of the session at whatever Wal-Mart's average price for the day turned out to be.
The objective behind this Securities and Exchange Commission-sanctioned pilot by the Philadelphia Stock Exchange is to eliminate the effect on market prices when big block trades occur.
See Also The Wall Street Veteran Behind the Off-Market Block Trading Experiment
But that's precisely what raises red flags for critics of the system, which is expected to undergo a major expansion beginning in July. Critics say that keeping such trades out of the daily market mix hurts everyday investors by altering the true value of stocks and by denying them the benefits the institutions get.
In essence, the program -- called eVWAP, for electronic volume-weighted average price -- allows big traders to be in the market without ever really being part of it. That, critics say, is potentially harmful to other investors, who could lose out if they can't benefit from a price change -- up or down -- that a big block trade might spur.
"I thought the point of an efficient market is the level of interest in a stock determines the appropriate price," says Barbara Roper, director of investor protection for the Consumer Federation of America. "As soon as you allow people to trade without affecting the price of the stock, it would seem to me you're distorting the price-setting process."
Promoters, of course, see it differently -- as catering to institutions that are eager to avoid pressuring prices. "When the institutions get too big for the market, they have to find other things," says Fredric W. Rittereiser, chairman of Ashton Technology Group (ASTN:Nasdaq - news), developer of the VWAP system. A blunt-spoken one-time New York City detective, Rittereiser is a former head of the Instinet electronic trading service.
This new initiative would seem at odds with the SEC's recent push to open up markets and make trading information more widely available. But market forces dictate the agency be realistic, says Elizabeth King, associate director of the SEC's market regulation division.
She readily admits the Philadelphia system continues a trend toward fragmenting the overall market. But if institutions can't create the most efficient trading systems in the U.S., she says, they'll simply go elsewhere, such as overseas.
"It's always a tension," she says. "The more orders interact, the more they contribute to [price-setting]. In a perfect world, you could get everybody to display their trading interest in one place, but that's not going to happen. So why shouldn't we allow for systems to develop to serve those interests?"
The eVWAP system works like this: At least 15 minutes ahead of the 9:30 a.m. market opening, institutions place their orders in 5000-share minimum blocks. By 9:20 a.m., Ashton's system matches buyers and sellers wanting to trade the same stock.
About 15 minutes after the market's 4 p.m. closing, the system calculates the volume-weighted average price for all trades, wherever they took place, and assigns that price to the orders it matched that morning. Under a volume-weighted average, prices of bigger blocks get more weight in the calculation.
Fund managers and others have long used volume-weighted average price to evaluate traders. Generally, if trades are made at or near the volume-weighted average price, traders are judged to have made good deals.
Until now, block traders typically have tried to hit the volume-weighted price by "time-slicing" -- that is, chopping their overall orders into small pieces that trade throughout the day. This can be done manually or through computerized trading programs.
If done fastidiously, this technique can approximate the true volume-weighted average price. But it's more difficult when markets are volatile, as they have been recently. And, unlike the eVWAP system, the trades are still part of the overall supply and demand equation for the day and thus can affect market price.
According to industry estimates, 13%-15% of all trades today are part of some volume-weighted average pricing strategy. That alone suggests the market for eVWAP could be big, but some say the figure could reach even 20% or more.
"Every desk you can name wants to take your orders and trade them eVWAP," says Greg Rogers, head trader at Aronson+Partners, a Philadelphia money manager.
After several years of planning and retooling, the Philadelphia exchange won SEC approval for the Ashton system in March 1999. In July the company expects to accelerate its efforts. Some 70 clients have already signed up -- Rittereiser won't name them, saying the institutions want anonymity. But he says they include floor brokers, mutual fund managers, bank traders and pension fund managers.
The eVWAP system has approval to trade in 300 of the New York Stock Exchange's most heavily traded issues. It's now trading in just 50, handling about 70,000 shares daily. So for now, and in the immediate future, eVWAP is nowhere near big enough to be a major force.
But within three years, Rittereiser hopes to handle 100 million shares a day and wants to expand into Nasdaq stocks, too.
The chief concern among critics is that the system allows institutions to evade "price discovery" -- which helps establish market prices by exposing buyers' and sellers' intentions.
The more orders that flow to the eVWAP system, the less they're part of the pool of orders that establish market prices, critics complain. Divert enough orders and market prices stand to be established on shakier information, they argue.
"Suppose everyone does it -- then there's no market," says Bevis Longstreth, a New York securities attorney and a former SEC commissioner. "Where's the liquidity?"
Taken to the extreme, "we're going to go have 4000 or 5000 shares pricing a million shares," says Greg Bokach, an equity trader for American Century Investment Management. "People who participate [in the market] should benefit, not be used as a pricing mechanism."
Likewise, many small investors would like to get an eVWAP-style deal, says Mercer Bullard, former assistant chief counsel in the SEC's investment management division who now heads an advocacy group for mutual-fund investors.
"It takes a lot of the stress out of buying and selling," Bullard says. "People wouldn't have to play the guessing game of selling when the [market] is swooning for the day, then only to see it come roaring back by the close."
Ashton's Rittereiser acknowledges the importance of price discovery. "Price discovery is the essence of what every market is -- even the stamp market," he says. But, he says, eVWAP orders are simply a different animal. They represent not traditional trading but instead are actually "derivative," in this case, derived from prices established during normal trading.
In any case, eVWAP order flow won't hurt overall market pricing, he maintains. "It's a price-taker," he says. "It's in a stream. Those trades are absorbed in the market as they are moved into the market using this technique."
The chairman of the Philadelphia Stock Exchange, Meyer S. Frucher, likewise rejects the criticisms. "There are a lot of different kinds of investment opportunities and options that people use to minimize their risk," he says. "This is yet another. There's nothing wrong with that."
What about the concerns of small investors? "The institutions are our constituency," says Rittereiser. "The institutions are the ones who have demanded volume-weighted average pricing for years."
And besides, he asks, "Can a little guy get into the New York Stock Exchange?"
As originally published, this story contained an error. Please see Corrections and Clarifications.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Send letters to the editor to letters@thestreet.com. Read our conflicts and disclosure policy. Order reprints of TSC articles.
Posts: 2375 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Hate to put you on the spot, dw, but just exactly what is it your saying? Seems to be two theories being mixed together here. A negotiated settlement between Urban and the MM's, and SHO requirements. Can you give it to me in English?
-------------------- A million seconds is 13 days. A billion seconds is 31 years. Posts: 4893 | From: Burbank IL USA | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I don't think it is UC. Wouldn't that require forms to be filled out for insider trading? perhaps DTCC and MM deal.
Posts: 1005 | From: Grapevine, TX 76051 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Whatever it is, it is not normal. Days like today have not been seen since I have been involved with this stock.
Posts: 1005 | From: Grapevine, TX 76051 | Registered: Aug 2004
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By: Varok 22 Mar 2005, 07:37 PM EST Msg. 24711 of 24716 (This msg. is a reply to 24709 by billy9565.) Jump to msg. #
I agree,but here is an
Who would guess that Knight,one of the largest manipulators is knee deep in this whole mess,would have such a program.
Knight uses proprietary program trading technologies and expansive liquidity pools from our unmatched broker-dealer order flow to improve trade execution quality for our institutional clients.
Using proprietary program trading technology, our traders enter your large-sized orders directly into the market's computer system for automatic execution.
Access ECNs and exchanges; Interact with institutional and broker-dealer order flow; and Utilize selected algorithmic trading strategies.
FEATURES
Volume Weighted Average Pricing (VWAP)
VWAP trading minimizes market risk while maintaining client anonymity in the marketplace. With Knight, program VWAP orders are traded using a proprietary algorithm that incorporates more than 10 years of statistical arbitrage trading experience.
Guaranteed VWAP
Best Efforts VWAP
Limit VWAP
Point-to-Point VWAP
Control start and end times of client orders. Orders are filled at the Bloomberg VWAPs for the time period specified.
Percentage-of-Volume Order
Allows clients to execute with volume, useful for days when the volume is outside of its normal parameters. For example, a large order can be executed over multiple days, staying at 10% of volume per day, allowing participation in market activity while attempting to avoid negative price impact.
Market-on-open
Market-on-close
Auto-execution for orders up to 5,000 shares
I don't think if one were to put in an order to sell at .50+ per share actually would execute such a trade..
I will say this...Since the halt the volume has been quite heavy and I'm sure, as I have stated in recent comments, the MMs were caught with their shorts down and scambling to cover..
That is why I mentioned to hold..
Have a good day Varok
Posts: 1005 | From: Grapevine, TX 76051 | Registered: Aug 2004
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