the Ukrainian soldiers were probably hoping to get their aszes shot off on TV for the whole world to see and the Russkies didn't bite...
remebr that was how they got rid of their president last week... the mass media loves martyrs.
i have never assumed the Russians are dumber than US... they just tried to run a commie system when their hearts weren't really commie. The Chinese? I am pretty sure they really are commies and their "game" is to play US by selling US the rope we'll hang ourselves with (on credit no less)...
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quote:Originally posted by raybond: So what is the suggestion from all of you? That we go to war ! You know we will go it alone on this one.
Europe buys to much of its energy from Russia, Take Germany it buys 38% of it natural gas from Russia. Why would they want destroy there economies over a problem that is not there concern?
Who in America in there right mind wants a war with Russia? Saber rattling can be very dangerous.
Yes Ray, I am advocating a full scale thermo-nuclear response.
All I'm advocating is that we pull our heads out of our @$$ and realize that Russia and China are anything but our friends, and act accordingly when something is in our best interest and they oppose us. We should stop pretending that Russia and China are going to help us when we are forced to deal with their two-bit cronie states like NK, Syria or Iran. These regimes are supported by the likes of Putin. We should strengthen NATO, and build our missile shield, and tell Russia and China to go pound sand.
The only thing that thugs like Putin respect is strength, and right now, to him, we are simply a paper tiger. If we show a weak hand in Ukraine, this will only be the beginning.
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example.
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Yes Ray, I am advocating a full scale thermo-nuclear response.
All I'm advocating is that we pull our heads out of our @$$ and realize that Russia and China are anything but our friends, and act accordingly when something is in our best interest and they oppose us. We should stop pretending that Russia and China are going to help us when we are forced to deal with their two-bit cronie states like NK, Syria or Iran. These regimes are supported by the likes of Putin. We should strengthen NATO, and build our missile shield, and tell Russia and China to go pound sand.
The only thing that thugs like Putin respect is strength, and right now, to him, we are simply a paper tiger. If we show a weak hand in Ukraine, this will only be the beginning. ------------------------------------------------- I don't think anyone here has ever thought that Russia or China were are friends, at least not the government. I would never trust Nato to have our backs, no matter how much we strengthen are ties.
The only countries we can really count on for anything would be, England, Australia, Canada,Isreal, there must be a few others i am leaving out. But bottom line is that when the stuff starts, many Nato allies will be nowhere to be found.
I don't think anything is much different today as far as Russia and China are concerned. If anything, i think we have much better relations with them, then we did back in the 60's 70's. Is it really in our best interest to get involved with this? We have found out the hard way that we cannot be the protectors of the world. These countries need to do there own fighting, and we slip them the amo they need if there really willing to fight for their freedom. I am sure that the amo is already sliding through. The Russians and Chinese did this in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq and other countries, as we have also done for other countries.
We have to many wounded and dead soldiers in this country, from us being the protector of the world. We also have a history with Nato countries and how they jump in full force with us, when we decide in invade.
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I myself don't think anybody in government thinks that Russia and China are our friends. And I don't think our government will back down or our military. They are just made of better stuff.
However we will need a lot more man power if we take on both Russia and China, and that is where you will see our resolve. The call will go out and there is no pearl harbor.
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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this is what has been bothering me with China for over a decade now...
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russian lawmakers are working on a draft law to allow the confiscation of property, assets and accounts of European or U.S. companies if sanctions are imposed on Russia over Ukraine, RIA news agency said on Wednesday.
RIA quoted Andrei Klishas, head of the constitutional legislation committee in the upper parliament house, as saying the bill "would offer the president and government opportunities
to defend our sovereignty from threats".
He added that lawyers were examining whether the confiscation of foreign companies' assets, property and accounts would comply with the Russian constitution but said such steps would "clearly be in line with European standards"
When, (not if) the first move is made to confiscate "foreign assets" there will be major domino effect and the US has sunk too much of it's assets overseas in the last 25 years in search of "cheap labor".
there is always a price to pay, the real question is where you will pay it, not if but when and where. by "taking' all of these short term profits overseas for the last 25 years the USA has given away too much of it's real strength.
all this chatter on the media outlets about how we have to "do soemthing" to save the Ukrainians is crazy IMO. we have to take care of ourselves first, only then can we begin to think about "helping" all of the other people. the stupidest part is that they mostly don't really want our help, but the media and the politicians don't care about that.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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all this chatter on the media outlets about how we have to "do soemthing" to save the Ukrainians is crazy IMO. we have to take care of ourselves first, only then can we begin to think about "helping" all of the other people. the stupidest part is that they mostly don't really want our help, but the media and the politicians don't care about that. ------------------------------------------------- Exactly! Politicians and media suck us in to benefit themselves. Big oil many times has a lot to do with it. I'm tired of us sacrificing of nations lives for one conflict after another, and we the people have to quite getting sucked in to the same game, just a little different twist.
We get into Iraq, then proceed on to Afghanistan, leaving troops in both places.Then without even getting out of both countries completely, were suppose to start waving the sword again. Not in my opinion, unless everyone waving the sword is on point when we enter.
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China pass a law! That's a good one they look at us and laugh.
Anyway we will teach them a thing or two if we go to war. They will learn not to mess with in and out burger. We can ruin there health and call ourselves the victor a hundred years later.
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: Putin still winning.
And you are still losing you traitorous POS. You should go nuthug Putin...oh that's right...you already are! You are filth. Simple as that. Disgusting that you ever allegedly ever served in the military. You are disgusting and sick minded. Renounce your citizenship and move to Russia where you can nuthug Putin even closer. You sir are a worthless piece of trash with those comments.
-------------------- It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
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quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: Putin still winning.
And you are still losing you traitorous POS. You should go nuthug Putin...oh that's right...you already are! You are filth. Simple as that. Disgusting that you ever allegedly ever served in the military. You are disgusting and sick minded. Renounce your citizenship and move to Russia where you can nuthug Putin even closer. You sir are a worthless piece of trash with those comments.
Your vocabulary is severely limited and so is your mind. That response is typical though. You seem to think I support Putin, but I do not. You WANT me to though, I can tell. You just cant stand the fact that the world see's us even weaker after this. Your dear leader with his hands tied, and Putin gives him no respect.
Dont be mad at me because in this situation, Putin IS winning. As much as you want me to think that I want some kind of war to break out, I do not. In fact, you and others put words in my mouth soley for the sake of trying to beef up your side of a debate. Its a weak tactic. Like pulling the race card on anyone who does not see the world in your lens.
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quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: Putin still winning.
And you are still losing you traitorous POS. You should go nuthug Putin...oh that's right...you already are! You are filth. Simple as that. Disgusting that you ever allegedly ever served in the military. You are disgusting and sick minded. Renounce your citizenship and move to Russia where you can nuthug Putin even closer. You sir are a worthless piece of trash with those comments.
Your vocabulary is severely limited and so is your mind. That response is typical though. You seem to think I support Putin, but I do not. You WANT me to though, I can tell. You just cant stand the fact that the world see's us even weaker after this. Your dear leader with his hands tied, and Putin gives him no respect.
Dont be mad at me because in this situation, Putin IS winning. As much as you want me to think that I want some kind of war to break out, I do not. In fact, you and others put words in my mouth soley for the sake of trying to beef up your side of a debate. Its a weak tactic. Like pulling the race card on anyone who does not see the world in your lens.
cash, you make it quite clear that you want Obama to fail and that anything he does (or doesn't do) is somehow a failed move. This is th mind-set that leads to 'failed state' and revolutions where third parties march in and do as they please a la Putin.
i brought this up early on in this thread. when American Citizens and even political parties make it their only goal to see our president "be a failure" they are insuring the Failure of the State.
The irrationality and lack of ability to sense the danger to themselves as they pursue these types of goals is the very essence of insanity.
'red dawn' was fiction. we as a nation might very well make it impossible for any foreign occupation BUT we will not enjoy a decent economic environment while doing so...
i am now listening to our lawmakers try to make this whole mess into an excuse to try to sell liquid natgas on the european market. This idea is evn crazier. you can't ship LNG to compete pricewise for piped natgas. i thnk we have a severe mental retardation problem in the US and it's called politics.
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Away from the conflict in Ukraine, Russian President Vladimir Putin is quietly seeking a foothold in Latin America, military officials warn.
To the alarm of lawmakers and Pentagon officials, Putin has begun sending navy ships and long-range bombers to the region for the first time in years.
Russia’s defense minister says the country is planning bases in Cuba, Venezuela, and Nicaragua, and just last week, Putin’s national security team met to discuss increasing military ties in the region. “They’re on the march,” Sen. Joe Donnelly (D-Ind.) said at a Senate hearing earlier this month. “They’re working the scenes where we can’t work. And they’re doing a pretty good job.”
Gen. James Kelly, commander of U.S. Southern Command said there has been a “noticeable uptick in Russian power projection and security force personnel” in Latin America.
“It has been over three decades since we last saw this type of high-profile Russian military presence,” Kelly said at the March 13 hearing.
The U.S. military says it has been forced to cut back on its engagement with military and government officials in Latin America due to budget cuts. Kelly said the U.S. military had to cancel more than 200 effective engagement activities and multi-lateral exercises in Latin America last year.
With the American presence waning, officials say rivals such as Russia, China and Iran are quickly filling the void.
Iran has opened up 11 additional embassies and 33 cultural centers in Latin America while supporting the "operational presence" of militant group Lebanese Hezbollah in the region.
“On the military side, I believe they're establishing, if you will, lily pads for future use if they needed to use them,” Kelly said.
China is making a play for Latin America a well, and is now the fastest growing investor in the region, according to experts. Although their activity is mostly economic, they are also increasing military activity through educational exchanges.
The Chinese Navy conducted a goodwill visit in Brazil, Chile and Argentina last year and conducted its first-ever naval exercise with the Argentine Navy.
Meanwhile, the U.S. had to cancel the deployment of its hospital ship USNS Comfort last year.
“Our relationships, our leadership, and our influence in the Western Hemisphere are paying the price,” Kelly said.
Some experts warn against being too alarmist, and say Russia, China and Iran do not have the ability or desire to project military power beyond their borders.
Army War College adjunct professor Gabriel Marcella said Russia's maneuvering is more about posturing than a real threat.
"Latin America is seen as an opportunity to challenge the United States in terms of global presence," he said. "They want to show the flag to assert their presence and say they need to be counted on the world stage."
Other experts said the encroachment of rivals has huge economic implications for the U.S., which has more trade partners in Latin America than in any other region in the world.
“[Russia’s presence] serves to destabilize what has become a more stabilized, middle class continent with an increasing respect for the rule of law. ... Any type of unsettling of that environment will scare off investors,” said Jason Marczak, deputy director at the Atlantic Council’s Adrienne Arsht Latin America Center.
“Market economies and democracies are fundamental for trade, for jobs, and for stable investment environments," he said.
Marczak noted the instability in Venezuela, which is facing civil unrest from anti-government protestors.
“In Venezuela, a lot of the money that’s been able to prop up President Chavez and now Maduro has been Chinese money,” Kelly said.
So far, 31 protestors have been killed in clashes with government security forces.
“I see a real degradation in what used to pass as Venezuelan democracy. There's less and less of that now,” Kelly said.
And while Chinese investment in Latin America could have positive aspects for the region, it could also make it more difficult for U.S. official to push labor and environmental safeguards that it argues are building blocks for democracy, Marczak said.
Angel Rabasa, a senior political scientist at RAND, said cuts to the defense budget are going to accelerate a long trend of U.S. neglect and disengagement with Latin America.
According to Sen. Tim Kaine (D-Va.), there are 10 countries in Latin America that currently have no U.S. ambassador because they either haven’t been nominated yet or confirmed, a sign that the region is seen as a low priority.
“We will be losing the ability to influence developments in a region that is very important to us because of proximity,” Rabasa said.
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this is what has me more concerned, remeber that zerohedge is a "specualtive" information provider. i donot agree with all of their conclusin in this article, but i do see the basic premise leading to consequences we will have a hard tim edealing with.
the idea that we can ship LNG to europe and compete with piped natgas from putin is ludicrous, yet that is exaclty waht some US politicians have been suggesting...
Petrodollar Alert: Putin Prepares To Announce "Holy Grail" Gas Deal With China Tyler Durden's picture Submitted by Tyler Durden on 03/21/2014 09:41 -0400
If it was the intent of the West to bring Russia and China together - one a natural resource (if "somewhat" corrupt) superpower and the other a fixed capital / labor output (if "somewhat" capital misallocating and credit bubbleicious) powerhouse - in the process marginalizing the dollar and encouraging Ruble and Renminbi bilateral trade, then things are surely "going according to plan."
For now there have been no major developments as a result of the shift in the geopolitical axis that has seen global US influence, away from the Group of 7 (most insolvent nations) of course, decline precipitously in the aftermath of the bungled Syrian intervention attempt and the bloodless Russian annexation of Crimea, but that will soon change. Because while the west is focused on day to day developments in Ukraine, and how to halt Russian expansion through appeasement (hardly a winning tactic as events in the 1930s demonstrated), Russia is once again thinking 3 steps ahead... and quite a few steps east.
While Europe is furiously scrambling to find alternative sources of energy should Gazprom pull the plug on natgas exports to Germany and Europe (the imminent surge in Ukraine gas prices by 40% is probably the best indication of what the outcome would be), Russia is preparing the announcement of the "Holy Grail" energy deal with none other than China, a move which would send geopolitical shockwaves around the world and bind the two nations in a commodity-backed axis. One which, as some especially on these pages, have suggested would lay the groundwork for a new joint, commodity-backed reserve currency that bypasses the dollar, something which Russia implied moments ago when its finance minister Siluanov said that Russia may refrain from foreign borrowing this year. Translated: bypass western purchases of Russian debt, funded by Chinese purchases of US Treasurys, and go straight to the source.
Here is what will likely happen next, as explained by Reuters:
Igor Sechin gathered media in Tokyo the next day to warn Western governments that more sanctions over Moscow's seizure of the Black Sea peninsula from Ukraine would be counter-productive.
The underlying message from the head of Russia's biggest oil company, Rosneft, was clear: If Europe and the United States isolate Russia, Moscow will look East for new business, energy deals, military contracts and political alliances.
The Holy Grail for Moscow is a natural gas supply deal with China that is apparently now close after years of negotiations. If it can be signed when Putin visits China in May, he will be able to hold it up to show that global power has shifted eastwards and he does not need the West.
More details on the revelation of said "Holy Grail":
State-owned Russian gas firm Gazprom hopes to pump 38 billion cubic meters (bcm) of natural gas per year to China from 2018 via the first pipeline between the world's largest producer of conventional gas to the largest consumer.
"May is in our plans," a Gazprom spokesman said, when asked about the timing of an agreement. A company source said: "It would be logical to expect the deal during Putin's visit to China."
Summarizing what should be and is painfully obvious to all, but apparently to the White House, which keeps prodding at Russia, is the following:
"The worse Russia's relations are with the West, the closer Russia will want to be to China. If China supports you, no one can say you're isolated," said Vasily Kashin, a China expert at the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) think thank.
Bingo. And now add bilateral trade denominated in either Rubles or Renminbi (or gold), add Iran, Iraq, India, and soon the Saudis (China's largest foreign source of crude, whose crown prince also happened to meet president Xi Jinping last week to expand trade further) and wave goodbye to the petrodollar.
As reported previoisly, China has already implicitly backed Putin without risking it relations with the West. "Last Saturday China abstained in a U.N. Security Council vote on a draft resolution declaring invalid the referendum in which Crimea went on to back union with Russia. Although China is nervous about referendums in restive regions of other countries which might serve as a precedent for Tibet and Taiwan, it has refused to criticize Moscow. The support of Beijing is vital for Putin. Not only is China a fellow permanent member of the U.N. Security Council with whom Russia thinks alike, it is also the world's second biggest economy and it opposes the spread of Western-style democracy." http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-21/petrodollar-alert-isolated-west-putin-p repares-announce-holy-grail-gas-deal-china
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Well Putin still doing what he wants. You all want to put words in my mouth and think I support the commie ******* but I dont. I think its fun to make jokes about him though.
Now that Crimea is wrapped up and nothing happens but the usual "sanctions", he is moving into Ukraine. Slowly and "covertly" but everyone knows its russian agents and not free people in these police station takeovers.
Whats next? Would this be happening under a Reagan or Bush Presidency? Do we just bend over and let the new Russian empire emerge? Do we continue to cut back our military and cut pensions for retirees?
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.
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Cash when it comes to Obama you would rather support the commies. I say you are a sore looser. You swine tried so hard to rig another election and couldn't so you lost.
Nobody is bending over as you put it.Do you see any Ukrainians fighting the Russians? If anything they look to be welcoming them. I just thank God every night that we don't have a Reagan or a Bush at the helm they were to stupid to handle a situation like this one. I myself am sick and tired of us fighting other peoples battles for them. If democracy is not important enough for somebody to fight for it, then they do not deserve it.
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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quote:Originally posted by raybond: Cash when it comes to Obama you would rather support the commies. I say you are a sore looser. You swine tried so hard to rig another election and couldn't so you lost.
Nobody is bending over as you put it.Do you see any Ukrainians fighting the Russians? If anything they look to be welcoming them. I just thank God every night that we don't have a Reagan or a Bush at the helm they were to stupid to handle a situation like this one. I myself am sick and tired of us fighting other peoples battles for them. If democracy is not important enough for somebody to fight for it, then they do not deserve it.
The Soviet war in Afghanistan lasted nine years from December 1979 to February 1989.
I can't recall how much military support Reagan and Bush the First sent to the Afghans.... oh wait. they sent just as much as Carter did.... none.
unless you count the covert money they sent to support Bin Laden..
i agree with you if also beleive that certain American are secretly jealous of the KIND of power that Putin weilds... strangely enough that means they aren't very good Americans right? no surprise there... the US spends as much money on "defens" as th enext 8 coutnries on the top ten list spend COMBINED.... and these are the same peopel that complain about paying the bill for that defense too...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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the Mujahadeen (bin laden included)in Afghanistan was provided the only real military assistance via the US CIA. The USA started to supply the Mujahideen with its man-portable anti-aircraft missile system called the Stinger. The US supplied at least 250 launcher systems and at least 500 individual Stinger missiles to the Mujahideen as well as the training needed to operate the system. The introduction of the Stinger changed the battlefield and the Soviet aircraft turned from being the hunter to being the hunted. The SU 25 and Mi 24 were particularly vulnerable as they tended to fly low and thus remained for a long time within the range of a Stinger missile. After the Stinger was introduced to the war, the Mujahideen shot down on average more than one aircraft per day. The suddenly escallating costs of aircraft losses became a major additional drain on the costs of the war and many analysts believe the unsustainable aircraft losses caused Stinger was the primary catalyst to cause the Soviet Union to withdraw from the war. US Congressman Charlie Wilson who was instrumental in funding the Stingers for the Mujahideen said that before the Stinger the Mujahideen never won a set piece battle with the Soviets but after it was introduced, the Mujahideen never again lost one. Many Western military analysts credit the introduction of the Stinger as the turning point in the war but many Russian military analysts tend to be dismissive of the impact to the Stinger. With a kill ratio of about 70% and with over 350 aircraft and helicopters downed in the last two years of the war, most directly attributed to he Stingers, the effect of the Stinger was at least notable. The Wall Street Journal in a 2011 article commemorating several Mujahideen fighters celebrated the Stinger as 'The Missile that Made History.' Source: Wall Street Journal A Foreign Policy article about the Stinger used in Afghanistan called it so much a 'game changer' in the Afghanistan war, that a military analyst term has been coined as the 'Stinger Effect' source: Foreign Policy.
By mid-1987 the Soviet Union announced it would start withdrawing its forces. Sibghatullah Mojaddedi was selected as the head of the Interim Islamic State of Afghanistan, in an attempt to reassert its legitimacy against the Moscow-sponsored Kabul regime. Mojaddedi, as head of the Interim Afghan Government, met with then Vice President of the United States George H. W. Bush, achieving a critical diplomatic victory for the Afghan resistance. Defeat of the Kabul government was their solution for peace. This confidence, sharpened by their distrust of the United Nations, virtually guaranteed their refusal to accept a political compromise. yeah i miss the "good old days" too bad they created the Taliban and Al Queda, we need more 'strong" leadership like that like we need a hole in the head... BTW? they paid for those stingers and the "resistnce" by flooding hte USA with hashish- seems like wars always produce drug trades, now it's opium from Afghnistan huuh?
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the same leadership supported sadam Husein against Iran - that's why Dubya was so sure Sadam had chmical WMD's (cuz they were made here in Arkansas) and whne directly confronted by terrorsim at eh marine Corps barracks in Beirut (1983) they responded by retreating... yeah those guys were too tough for Putin i'm sure
what was it reagan said? “It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.” i guess he was confused ... maybe the alzheimers started way ealrier than we knew/
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: i have no direct experience with Russia or Russians, other than reading several Russina Classics (Dostoyevski, Tolstoy, Solzhenitsyn) which were all depressing as hell. My tak eon Russina culture is thatthey accept and possibly even like being run by tyrants....
quote:Originally posted by raybond: I myself don't think anybody in government thinks that Russia and China are our friends. And I don't think our government will back down or our military. They are just made of better stuff.
However we will need a lot more man power if we take on both Russia and China, and that is where you will see our resolve. The call will go out and there is no pearl harbor.
You never read about Hillary and her "reset button" Ray?
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example.
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quote:Originally posted by Pagan: OMG...you are so retarded! ROFLMAO! Please tell everyone EXACTLY what Obama...or even a GOP Prez is supposed to do in the current situation? You are such a raging drip! And why don't you back off the racist BS...dude...he is already Prez...you and your Skinhead bros are just out of luck for now. Get over it.
I look back at your post and just laugh. You are such an angry drone for this administration. Tell me why President Obama won a nobel peace prize? The cold war has come back, and Obama going back to Iraq! How about them apples! Hopefully your dreams of amnesty and an open border end soon.
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Merkel Issues Rebuke to Russia, Setting Caution Aside
“Who would’ve thought,” she said, “that 25 years after the fall of the wall, after the end of the Cold War, after the end of the division of Europe and the end of the world being divided in two, something like that can happen right at heart of Europe?”
I'll tell you who: The same man, who 25 years ago, in the middle of the Cold War, thought that the Berlin Wall would come down, Germany would re-unite and the Soviet Union would collapse... Anatoliy Golitsyn.
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example.
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Putin making more moves again. None of which surprise me. Saw some sat photos of a Syrian ship loading some kind of cargo in Sevastopol. Having Crimea is of great help now for Russia to send military equipment to the port in Syria in Latakia. Something big is going on and happening very quickly with this buildup in Syria.
How will this go down? Who knows. Iran comes from the east, Russia from the west to crush ISIS? Then what...
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There have been lots of manuvers going on this summer and especially last week at Camp Pendleton.
I don't know if it has anything to do with tomorrow being 9/11 or something going on in the Middle East.
What's really weird is several weeks ago it appeared they were firing mortors not more than 100 yards of the I-5 freeway. I would see a puff of smoke then hear a boom right after that.
There are times when you hear the bigger guns firing early in the morning until 10 in the evening, rocks the rooms a little or i should say a lot, in Oceanside.
They have no time restrictions it appears. They shouldn't, they were here first in most cases, not that it matters these days.
The Navy ships off shore do manuvers with the Marines on shore, back and forth for days.
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