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buckstalker
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Can someone please explain to me how banning certain "types" of weapons from law abiding citizens, is going to "prevent" NON law abiding criminals from acquiring them?

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IWISHIHAD
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They will get their law past, and they knew when to push it. Most don't know what guns they are talking about, and most really don't care.

When the criminals come to their house with a banned weapon, they can tell them how illegal it is, i am sure they will care.

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raybond
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It may sound strange to you guys but I don't want to semi auto guns banned. or really what is the difference a 10 round mag vs a twenty. And I don't think they can get that or a gun bann. I do think they will get a complete and well done back ground check.

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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buckstalker
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You are right Iwish..."they" are going to make this country a more dangerous place and ...they" are in fact going to be responsible for the deaths of more children and innocents by NOT dealing with the problem...

The only way to protect our children is the same way we protect the president, movie stars and the other "important" people in our society.

If they believe that banning "assault" weapons is going to protect our children, then I challenge "them" to stop using ARMED guards to protect themselves once the ban is in place

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buckstalker
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quote:
Originally posted by raybond:
It may sound strange to you guys but I don't want to semi auto guns banned. or really what is the difference a 10 round mag vs a twenty. And I don't think they can get that or a gun bann. I do think they will get a complete and well done back ground check.

Criminals DON'T buy guns legally Ray, nor do they worry about background checks...they purchase guns illegally on the street or steal them....

Therefore...more background checks will do NOTHING to solve the problem...

But this ISN'T about solving the problem or making our children safer is it Ray?

This is simply about more GOVERNMENT CONTROL and people like you are so brainwashed, that you are willing to freely give it to them...

You don't deserve the freedoms you still have...

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It's all in the timing...

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jordanreed
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criminals didn't go into these schools or malls or what have you and start shooting. They were law-abiding citizens with access to weapons of mass killing power. You. my friend, are the one brainwashed. I will state again..YOUR RIGHT TO OWN GUNS IN INTACT!!!...a shotgun blast to the chest of an intruder will stop him cold. Ive never read or heard of a criminal entering a common, law-abiding citizens house and open up with an uzi...have you? Doubt it. no rights are being taken away!...If you really need that kind of weapon, you have the ability to purchase one..providing you qualify to own one. same with flame throwers, bazookas, etc...and if you give me a month or so ,I can probably get u what you need illegally. But why would you need it?And if you do need them? something is amiss in your brain to think you do. Don't u think that if Joe Blow down the street has a stockpile of those types of weapons,(all purchased legally now) that maybe he should be concedred a little nuts and kept an eye on? Common sense says yes. See, its about common sense. Common sense says that if you like to hunt animals, that you should have some hunting weapons. Don't forget..we are a society of rules, laws and regulations. The more we advance, so should those. It seems you lack the common sense to understand that. But , you know what?...Your not in my little world and never will be (thank god), So you hunker down with all your weapons and protect your perceived freedoms. But stay the fuk away from me cuz you give off a scary, crazy vibe. ick. [BadOne]

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jordan

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glassman
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jordan,
you begin by saying that mass-murderes are not criminals. i stopped reading there.
i expect better from you...
just to make fine point on th esubject? the snady hook shooter killed his mom and stole the guns from her. he was not even of legal age yet, and had been rejected by legit gun dealers.
and this kid was apparently smart enough to go under the kitchen sink and make a "poison bomb" that would have done the job even better. beleive me it IS possible and with common houshold stuff, i'm no mcgyver, but i know enough chemistry to know our houses are full of wmd if we just mix them up, remeber that you are not allowed more than couple of ounces of liquid on a plane anymore. theres a whole chitload of very good resaons why that rule was implemented, and the recipes are all over the internet..

Adam Lanza, Newtown School Shooter, Was 'Nerd,' Honors Student

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buckstalker
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanreed:
criminals didn't go into these schools or malls or what have you and start shooting. They were law-abiding citizens with access to weapons of mass killing power. You. my friend, are the one brainwashed. I will state again..YOUR RIGHT TO OWN GUNS IN INTACT!!!...a shotgun blast to the chest of an intruder will stop him cold. Ive never read or heard of a criminal entering a common, law-abiding citizens house and open up with an uzi...have you? Doubt it. no rights are being taken away!...If you really need that kind of weapon, you have the ability to purchase one..providing you qualify to own one. same with flame throwers, bazookas, etc...and if you give me a month or so ,I can probably get u what you need illegally. But why would you need it?And if you do need them? something is amiss in your brain to think you do. Don't u think that if Joe Blow down the street has a stockpile of those types of weapons,(all purchased legally now) that maybe he should be concedred a little nuts and kept an eye on? Common sense says yes. See, its about common sense. Common sense says that if you like to hunt animals, that you should have some hunting weapons. Don't forget..we are a society of rules, laws and regulations. The more we advance, so should those. It seems you lack the common sense to understand that. But , you know what?...Your not in my little world and never will be (thank god), So you hunker down with all your weapons and protect your perceived freedoms. But stay the fuk away from me cuz you give off a scary, crazy vibe. ick. [BadOne]

Jordan...Lets try this again...

Please "enlighten" me on exactly what attributes a gun must have to be classified as an "assault" weapon?
Also clarify what "types" of guns we shouldn't be "allowed" to own

Is an AR-15 an assault weapon?
Is a semi-automatic 30-06 an assault weapon?
Is a 12 gauge shotgun an assault weapon?
Is a semi-auto 22 caliber rifle an assault weapon?
How about a semi-auto pistol?
Have you ever shot any of the above?
Have you ever owned any of the above?
Do you know the ballistics characteristics of any of the above?
Do you know the effective range of any of the above?


To have such a strong opposition to certain "types" of guns, you certainly must know the answers to the above questions...

Also...please explain to me how banning a law abiding citizen like myself from owning an AR-15 or any other "type" of gun is going to stop a NON law abiding criminal from acquiring one...

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It's all in the timing...

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jordanreed
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exactly what im talkin bout, buck......you....a law-abiding guy,,now,,,but if someone sets you off, you have the arsenal to set them straight. But, there might be collateral damage, or you may be mistaken, or maybe you thought they were armed and weren't, you may have a tight screw that loosens up..you do seem pretty tightly wound. so..your answer is to let anyone who passes the requirements have any and all weapons of their choosing?..sorry but I disagree. Again..common sense prevails. All this stupid gun talk, with all your insane questions of what I know about guns is ludicrous . by the way..ALL guns are assault weapons. you can assault anything with them..and Im sure you've assaulted plenty of harmless things. I'm on the other side of the fence.as you know. So..there u have it....good luck and pass the bullets

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jordan

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buckstalker
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Jordan...First off, I am a law abiding, peaceful human being and I detest violence...I don't understand how a human being can inflict pain or death on another human being without it being in self defense...It makes no sense to me at all, but it happens every day...

If someone "sets me off" I walk away and I avoid getting myself into violent situations...

The fact is that 99.999% of gun owners are responsible, law abiding, safety conscious individuals that never harm anyone with a gun and don't resort to gun violence when they get angry or "set off"

The second to last thing I ever want to happen in my life is to have to kill another human being...

The last thing I ever want to happen in my life is to get killed by another human being because I wasn't prepared to defend myself...

I want to live as long as I can and I am going to do whatever I can to increase those odds...

I quit smoking because it increases my odds of living a longer life.

I wear a seat belt because it increases my odds of living if I am involved in an accident

I wear a helmet when I snowboard or ride my motorcycle

I carry and own guns for the same reason

In your world there would be no guns and everyone would live in peace and harmony...as much as I would like to live in that perfect world myself and as nice as that would be, it isn't reality.

The sad fact is that in our society there are a VERY large number of people that have no regard for human life and will kill you at the drop of a hat for something as trivial as your tennis shoes.

I hope for your sake that you never encounter a bad guy that thinks like that, cause if you do, you're phucked

[ February 05, 2013, 13:33: Message edited by: buckstalker ]

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It's all in the timing...

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buckstalker
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanreed:
exactly what im talkin bout, buck......you....a law-abiding guy,,now,,,but if someone sets you off, you have the arsenal to set them straight. But, there might be collateral damage, or you may be mistaken, or maybe you thought they were armed and weren't, you may have a tight screw that loosens up..you do seem pretty tightly wound. so..your answer is to let anyone who passes the requirements have any and all weapons of their choosing?..sorry but I disagree. Again..common sense prevails. All this stupid gun talk, with all your insane questions of what I know about guns is ludicrous . by the way..ALL guns are assault weapons. you can assault anything with them..and Im sure you've assaulted plenty of harmless things. I'm on the other side of the fence.as you know. So..there u have it....good luck and pass the bullets

After reading your last 2 posts, I am 100% sure that you are far more dangerous to our society than I will ever be...

In the first place, you are a hypocrite and secondly you are very misinformed.

As far as the hypocrisy goes...if you eat meat of any kind, then YOU are just as GUILTY as I am, of "assaulting plenty of harmless things"...

I don't kill animals for pleasure...I kill them for FOOD...

As far as being misinformed, if you believe that the mass murderers of late weren't criminals, I would say that you were SEVERELY misinformed.

If you want to debate guns or anything else in the future on this board...please bring something other than emotional drivel to the table.

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It's all in the timing...

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raybond
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How Criminals Get Guns: In Short, All Too Easily

By Don Terry
Published: March 11, 1992


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In one sad neighborhood here, where funerals for young men and boys are now commonplace, people say the "Gun Man" drives through the streets, selling pistols from the back of a light-blue van.

Not far away in a violent patch of Chicago's South Side, Federal agents arrested a different man, a licensed gun dealer, on charges of selling weapons illegally to undercover officers in dark alleys and crumbling garages. Before he was caught, the authorities say, he sold hundreds of firearms to gang members and anyone else with fistfuls of dollars.

In yet another part of the city a gang leader, who has three children and even more gunshot scars, sits sipping a soda on a rainy night. Calling the city "infected with guns," he explains how easy it is to buy one, no questions asked, at the gun shows held almost every weekend on the city's suburban edge. An Unending Supply

The river of illegal weapons running through the streets of Chicago, as elsewhere, is fed by many tributaries. Those who help legally made guns flow into illegal hands include a small minority of crooked gun dealers, gunrunners who bring in weapons bought in the suburbs or out of state, brigades of burglars and flea-market traders who are happy to sell to any customer.


complete article

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/03/11/us/how-criminals-get-guns-in-short-all-too-eas ily.html?src=pm

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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buckstalker
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quote:
Originally posted by raybond:
How Criminals Get Guns: In Short, All Too Easily

By Don Terry
Published: March 11, 1992


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Print
Single-Page


In one sad neighborhood here, where funerals for young men and boys are now commonplace, people say the "Gun Man" drives through the streets, selling pistols from the back of a light-blue van.

Not far away in a violent patch of Chicago's South Side, Federal agents arrested a different man, a licensed gun dealer, on charges of selling weapons illegally to undercover officers in dark alleys and crumbling garages. Before he was caught, the authorities say, he sold hundreds of firearms to gang members and anyone else with fistfuls of dollars.

In yet another part of the city a gang leader, who has three children and even more gunshot scars, sits sipping a soda on a rainy night. Calling the city "infected with guns," he explains how easy it is to buy one, no questions asked, at the gun shows held almost every weekend on the city's suburban edge. An Unending Supply

The river of illegal weapons running through the streets of Chicago, as elsewhere, is fed by many tributaries. Those who help legally made guns flow into illegal hands include a small minority of crooked gun dealers, gunrunners who bring in weapons bought in the suburbs or out of state, brigades of burglars and flea-market traders who are happy to sell to any customer.


complete article

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/03/11/us/how-criminals-get-guns-in-short-all-too-eas ily.html?src=pm

You forgot to mention one important factor here ray...

Chicago has the strictest gun laws in the nation...

I rest my case...gun laws DON'T WORK

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It's all in the timing...

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raybond
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Fact Sheet: Gun Show Loophole Arms Criminals


The “Gun Show Loophole” is a gap in federal law that allows private citizens, who are not licensed firearms dealers, to sell guns without conducting background checks or keeping records. These “private sellers” often sell guns at the thousands of gun shows that take place every weekend across the country. But, private sales of guns also take place daily between individuals as people sell guns to family members, friends and strangers without any requirement that the purchaser undergo a background check.
•Federal law requires federally licensed gun dealers (FFLs) to conduct background checks on all buyers to make sure they are not felons or otherwise prohibited from owning guns. Dealers must conduct background checks whether at their primary place of business, or at a gun show. Dealers also keep buyer records in the event a gun is recovered in a crime and ATF needs to trace its serial number to its owner.
•Private sellers are not required to conduct background checks or keep records. In fact, federal law prevents private sellers from access to the National Instant Background Check System (NICS).
•Many criminals, knowing they can bypass background checks by purchasing from private sellers, use gun shows and individual sales as their source for obtaining guns.

The gun show loophole facilitates
sales to criminals:
•30% of trafficking: One ATF study found that over 10,000 crime guns traced in a year were connected to gun shows – about 30% of all crime guns traced that year.
•“Gun shows and flea markets are a major venue for illegal trafficking.” according to the ATF.
•Columbine: All four guns used in the Columbine school
massacre were bought at gun shows without background checks.
•New York City’s investigation of gun shows: In 2009, the City of New York sent undercover investigators to gun shows in Ohio, Tennessee and Nevada to find out if private sellers and federally licensed gun dealers at the shows would engage in illegal sales practices. They found that 74% of sellers approached by investigators, who verbally indicated they were legally prohibited from having guns, were willing to make the sale.

Widespread support for closing the
gun show loophole:
•A majority of NRA members support closing the loophole: In a poll conducted by Republican pollster Frank Luntz, 69% of NRA members and 85% of non-NRA gun owners supported background checks for all gun sales at gun shows.
•87% of Americans favor a requirement that everyone who sells guns at gun shows conduct criminal background checks on all purchases, according to a bipartisan 2008 poll.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dept. of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms, “Following the Gun: Enforcing Federal Laws Against Firearms Traffickers” (June 2000), available at http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/pdf/followingthegun_internet.pdf (documents criminal investigations started July 1996 through December 1998).

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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buckstalker
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The link you provided takes me nowhere and is dated 1996 through 1998...

When and if the new "infringement of our rights" takes effect I can guarantee you this...the mass killings and violence will not decrease...

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It's all in the timing...

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glassman
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the ATF did do a study that stated this:

Many Federal firearms licensees have complained to ATF about the conduct of
nonlicensees at gun shows.9 These licensees are understandably concerned that the
casual atmosphere of gun shows, combined with the absence of any requirement that an
unlicensed vendor check the background of a firearms purchaser, provides an opportunity
for felons and other prohibited persons to acquire firearms. Because Federal law neither
requires the creation of any record of these unlicensed sales nor places any obligations
upon gun show promoters, information is rarely available about the firearms sold should
they be recovered in a crime


and it's right here:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDkQFjAB&url =http%3A%2F%2Fwww.atf.gov%2Fpublications%2Fdownload%2Ftreas%2Ftreas-gun-shows-br ady-checks-and-crime-gun-traces.pdf&ei=WGYRUdKsDOq-yQH4hoCYDA&usg=AFQjCNFN_pv1mN XB2DO8gsxb75JzUIIPjA&bvm=bv.41934586,d.aWc

most of those crimes investigated were people who are criminals and they wshould be removed formt he gun show circuit, but they will still be in business, just like dope dealers....

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glassman
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it appears it is actually just few people doingmost of th ereal damage:

Approximately 254 individuals identified in the ATF gun showrelated
investigations were checked against data in the Firearms Tracing System and
related data bases. Of these, 44 appeared in the multiple purchase records with an
average of 59 firearms per person. Of the 44 individuals, 15 were associated with 50 or
more multiple sale firearms; these individuals had a total of 188 crime guns traced to
them, an average of approximately 13 firearms each. The largest number of multiple
sales firearms associated with one individual was 472; this individual had 53 crime guns
traced to him. These patterns are not in and of themselves proof of trafficking. Rather,
they are indicators investigators use to assist in trafficking investigations.


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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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buckstalker
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I am all for keeping guns out of the hands of people that shouldn't have them, like felons and the mentally disturbed... I am not against requiring background checks for all guns sold at gun shows...the problem is...the anti-gun folks won't stop there...

I AM 100% against "universal" background checks...

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It's all in the timing...

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IWISHIHAD
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Originally Posted By Jordanreed:

"Your not in my little world and never will be (thank god)"
-------------------------------------------------

Your right Jordanreed, there are many people that are in your world, and it's not a bad world.

But that world won't save lives, it will just take freedoms away.

Hopefully the real world will come up with a better solution, that will actually protect our kids.

-

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