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Author Topic: More on secession from the union
Relentless.
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
i dunno where we'd be.

we became an Agricultural superpower due to the fact that the Govt first contracted industry to provide millions of tons of explosives for the war, which gave the Capital needed to build the factories that ended up manufacturing cheap fertilisers when the war was over.

without the govt "seeding" the industry? fertilisers would never have become cheap enough to make them commonly available for all producers.

the Soviets had a similar program, but they used to harvest the grains wet because they showed more weight. they (bragging)posted hihger prodution levels but failed to properly dry the grain which in turn meant they lost most of it due to rot.


we nearly lost the midwest grain belt due to poor farming practices. it was govt intervention at all levels that turned that around. crop rotation, no-till, and fertilisers were all a direct result of govt intervention at basic levels.

my perspective is that government is able to take risks where private industry cannot. govt is still just people and cannot be trusted any more or less than any other entity tho.

I agree that government can take risks that private companies can not. And I agree government can at times frontier new practices and methods to solve old problems.
I do not however agree that private companies or people would not solve these same problems on their own... I work in an industry and for a company that solves problems every day... I watch and help as old problems are annihilated by smart and capable people without the aid of government.

Your example about the ole Ruskies is a flawless example of the problems of government.
No problem was solved and the only thing gained was a talking point.
I would argue that our government is no different in that aim today. I would argue that government today is solving no problems and only creating talking points.
I would further more argue that that same government holds me.. and you to the letter of the law without tolerance or mercy while they do nothing but violate the law.
I would argue that every government action needs to be scrutinized and compared to the law of this land.
Every law on the books needs to be audited against the constitution and then abolished if found in violation.
Every government action in the last fifty years needs to be audited against the constitution and the violators be jailed as mercilessly as we the civilians are. This needs to be done in a current to past order to give them something to fear.
Every representative needs to hold office with fear. Fear that will keep them honest and us free.

No, Glass it is no longer a government simply made up of us common people when they do not live by the laws they impose on us.

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glassman
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Your example about the ole Ruskies is a flawless example of the problems of government.

indeed it is, i didn't bring it in by accident. as you say, if the govt is made up of people, then it is only as good or bad as those people.

I would further more argue that that same government holds me.. and you to the letter of the law without tolerance or mercy while they do nothing but violate the law.

and this we must change

No, Glass it is no longer a government simply made up of us common people when they do not live by the laws they impose on us.

i agree, i just want to make sure we don't cut off our noses to spite our faces.

most of the new laws are written by lobbyists to favor the corporations that hire them.

i don't see "govt" as an evil entity, i see people doing evil things and i see it in both private and govt entities.

the bailouts are a perfect example. people want to claim the govt is evil for bailing them out, but the evil had already been committed, and the govt was left with two choices, allow everything to collapse, or not. blaming the govt is a shell game. the blame goes to the industry.

the industry is comprised of corporate entities WITHOUT personal faces. in other words? people are using corporate articles to commit crimes and they mostly get away with it. that needs to be changed. persoanl accountability in business and govt must be restored.

look at Madoff. his co was also a major market maker, and they claim he never even put his investors money to work? i am sure that something much worse was actually going on.

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Relentless.
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i don't see "govt" as an evil entity, i see people doing evil things and i see it in both private and govt entities.

I believe you are in the majority.. and that's the problem. Far too many see government as inherently good and noble when its track record throughout history has proven beyond doubt that it is destined for malice... Ours is there already.

And speaking of Madoff... if we persecute him... Why is it that everyone who supports Social Security isn't persecuted in the same manner?
See what I mean by government living above the law?

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glassman
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Far too many see government as inherently good

maybe i'm mis-communicating then, i don't see govt as inherently good just as i don't think cops are my "freinds" just cuz they are cops. i just don't see it as inherently evil either.


the beauty of the system the founding fathers set up was based on balance of powers. of course the balance is never perfect at any given time, it's alwyas in flux.

See what I mean by government living above the law?

we agree on this, and we need to seek ways to fix it, but i don't think we agree on same approach.

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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T e x
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Madoff, weak SEC:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/32767249

--------------------
Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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Relentless.
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quote:
we agree on this, and we need to seek ways to fix it, but i don't think we agree on same approach.
I don't see how it is fixable on a long term basis without the ability to control population growth and life span.
Both parts of the only solution suddenly mean freedom is a myth.
Ponzi schemes can never be permanent... hence the scheme part.

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The Bigfoot
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Government is man made. It consists of the individuals it is made up of. Some good, some bad. If you don't like it then change it.

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No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues.

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Relentless.
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But BF that's the problem. There is no choice that is not already of the "Ruling Elite".
We can vote all we want but if we are never actually given a real candidate to choose from then it is pointless.
The ruling elite are not dumb, they know the illusion of choice is the one and only thing that keeps us playing along.

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The Bigfoot
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Then be a candidate mate. Anyone can run for some kind of office as long as they are a citizen.

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No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues.

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buckstalker
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I quit playing along...

I see things exactly as you do RD...

The names change but the results are always the same...has been since I was born...

The solution??? It won't be pretty...

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***********************

It's all in the timing...

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