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If We Had Let GM Go Bankrupt Last November, We Could Have Lost Another Million JobsBy Ben Furnas on Jun 8th, 2009 at 11:11 am If We Had Let GM Go Bankrupt Last November, We Could Have Lost Another Million Jobs » Late last year, conservatives advocated pushing GM into a Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceeding. Echoing the conservative line last December, Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC) told the Fox Business Network:
“We don’t think it is the role of government to intervene…We need to let the market and the laws work the way they are already in place.”
But doing it then, without a pre-packaged agreement amongst creditors, suppliers, workers and management, alongside protections for consumers, could have been disastrous.
As Susan Helper, an economics professor at Case Western Reserve University, told the Huffington Post, “I thought filing for bankruptcy in December would be a disaster…It would have focused people on fighting over who was going to get paid, rather than making the companies work better.”
Merely plunging into bankruptcy proceedings without a prepackaged plan would have left suppliers and manufacturers of intermediate goods (who provide parts and materials for every car company with factories in the Unites States — including Toyota and Honda) struggling to secure credit, forcing cascading layoffs and stalled production that would have caused slowdowns throughout the industry. Combined with customers who would steer clear of Detroit brands because of uncertainty surrounding maintenance warranties, a messy bankruptcy could have have kicked off a vicious downward spiral that could have ended in liquidation and enormous job losses.
A study from the Center for Automotive Research suggests that an unsuccessful bankruptcy of GM and Chrysler would have cost approximately 1.3 million jobs. “Instead,” reports the New Republic, “the likely hit from the twin restructurings is 250,000.”
A GM in bankruptcy last November, in the midst of a nearly frozen credit-market, would have found it nearly impossible to find creditors to finance them through a Chapter 11, so without government assistance, they probably would have had to undergo a rapid and jarring liquidation under Chapter 7. This would have meant mass layoffs, a sell-off of assets at bargain basement prices, dismantling of factories, and hundreds of thousands more Americans straining states’ fraying unemployment safety nets, and a denial of millions of dollars in revenue to starved state budgets. More »« Less Comments 1
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise. Posts: 3827 | From: beautiful California | Registered: Sep 2008
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As GM Files Bankruptcy, Conservatives Again Claiming That Bondholders Were Treated Unfairly General Motor’s long awaited trip into bankruptcy is official as of this morning. Of course, conservatives have been decrying the plight of the company’s creditors, who are receiving a ten percent stake in the company, while a 17.5 percent stake will go to the United Auto Workers’ health trust. First, the Wall Street Journal’s editorial board:
Every decision the feds have made since December suggests that nonpolitical management will be impossible…Treasury bludgeoned the bond holders in both Chrysler and GM to take pennies on the dollar, which will not make creditors eager to lend to the companies in the future.
And conservative members of the House:
“The proposal seems to favor the rights and claims of the UAW, a political ally of the current administration and a powerful lobbying force in Washington, over the rights and claims of the company’s diverse group of bondholders,” according to a letter from 20 House members, led by Rep. Jeb Hensarling (R-Tex.), to Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner. “Contractual rights of investors are being trampled by the government under the rationale of ‘extraordinary circumstances.’ ”
We went through the same song and dance with Chrysler’s bankruptcy filing earlier this month, and the concerns don’t hold any more weight now. As the Washington Post noted today, “there are a number of precedents for retiree health funds getting preferential treatment during bankruptcies, particularly in the steel industry in recent years when Bethlehem Steel and others were sold off”:
“We felt that we needed the strong support of the union going forward,” said Wilbur Ross, who ran the private-equity firm that acquired Bethlehem after its 2001 bankruptcy filing. “It’s one thing to compromise a union contract. It’s another thing to get them working with good morale.”
“The only difference here is that you have the government playing the role of the vulture investor,” Ross added. “They are the only ones willing to make this investment, so they’re calling the shots.”
It’s also likely that the GM bondholders would get no more in liquidation than they are getting under the current deal, which may be why a majority of bondholders (54 percent) have jumped on board. Plus, as Harold Meyerson put it, “shareholders and bondholders knew they were taking risks when they invested in the company, but workers were flatly promised pensions and health benefits in retirement, payments for which were deducted from their paychecks.”
GM workers have already given up a lot in wage and benefit cuts, and they’re going to see their ranks thinned by some 21,000. In light of this, refusing to gut their health trust seems like the right decision.
UpdateFelix Salmon has
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise. Posts: 3827 | From: beautiful California | Registered: Sep 2008
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Toyota still king of quality, despite Big 3 gains
J.D. Power and Associates study says Cadillac is top contender behind Lexus and Porche
Ford, General Motors and Chrysler have made strides in new vehicle quality over the last year, but they still lag behind their foreign competitors, according to a closely watched study released Monday by J.D. Power and Associates.
The initial quality of 2009 model year vehicles sold by the Detroit Three improved by an average of 10 percent from last year, the marketing and consulting company said. Industrywide, scores improved an average of 8 percent.
"The Detroit automakers are keeping their focus on designing and building high-quality vehicles, which is a precondition for long-term success," said David Sargent, vice president of automotive research at J.D. Power, in a statement.
Lexus, Toyota Motor Corp.'s luxury line, was the top brand in J.D. Power's initial quality study, an annual survey of vehicle owners that measures mechanical and design problems in the first 90 days of ownership.
Porsche was the No. 2 brand, followed by GM's Cadillac, then
Hyundai and Honda.
Toyota, which supplanted General Motors Corp. as the world's largest automaker last year, also swept 10 vehicle segment awards. Its assembly facility in Higashi-Fuji, Japan, that builds the Lexus SC 430 and the Toyota Corolla took the J.D. Power's top plant award.
The worst-performing brand was Mini, with owners reporting 165 problems per 100 vehicles. Though Chrysler's scores improved year over year, it had no brands above the industry average. It tied for one segment award, with its PT Cruiser Wagon sharing the top award in the compact activity vehicle segment with Honda's CR-V. Chrysler, however, is discontinuing the car.
Cadillac and Chevrolet were GM's only two brands whose 2009 models performed above average. The four brands GM is purging under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection -- Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer and Saab -- were the company's worst rated. The Chevrolet TrailBlazer and GMC Yukon SUVs were rated best in their segments.
Jamie Hresko, GM's vice president for global quality, said the automaker has worked hard to improve vehicle quality over the last five years. Chevrolet and Cadillac account for 70 percent of GM's volume, he said, and top marks for those segments are an indication the effort is paying off.
"Is it where we need to be? No," Hresko said. "To have our core brands -- Cadillac and Chevrolet -- be on par with Toyota, we have reached a level of quality that will allow us to change perceptions."
Ford Motor Co., the only major U.S. automaker that has not filed for bankruptcy protection or accepted government aid, also saw scores improve for three of its four brands: Ford, Mercury and
Volvo. But its Lincoln brand's score fell, and only Ford and Mercury performed above the industry average.
The average industry score improved to 108 problems per 100 vehicles, down from 118 in 2008.
J.D. Power credited the improvement to several well-received new models that were launched in 2009. It said vehicles like Hyundai's Genesis, Kia's Borrego, Toyota's Venza and Volkswagen's CC performed better than their segment averages. Several redesigned 2009 models also scored well, J.D. Power said.
The scores come during a tumultuous time for the auto industry, with sales at their worst level in decades and taxpayers stuck funding the restructuring of GM and Chrysler Group LLC to the tune of billions of dollars. Although the two automakers have been pummeled by the economic crisis, many analysts have complained that a shortage of high-quality small car offerings has hobbled their performance in the down market.
GM has several new, small vehicles on the way that industry analysts say should help it better compete with established offerings from Toyota, Honda and other foreign competitors. It plans to start building the subcompact Chevrolet Cruze next year and says it will get about 40 miles per gallon. It also plans to sell the Chevrolet Spark minicar in the U.S. in 2011.
The road may be tougher for Chrysler. Cars like the sporty 500 made by its new owner, Italy's Fiat Group SpA, won't make it to the U.S. until late next year. The Auburn Hills, Mich., company plans to roll out new versions of its popular Jeep Grand Cherokee SUV and Chrysler 300 large sedan by the end of next year, along with a rechargeable electric vehicle, but these plans likely have been delayed by the bankruptcy process.
J.D. Power's rankings were based on questionnaires from 80,900 people who bought or leased new 2009 vehicles between February and May. The questionnaires ask 228 questions on issues from handling, braking and engine trouble, to seat comfort and stereo systems.
The rankings are closely watched by automakers and consumers, and are frequently used in advertising. However, some critics question whether they show any real statistical difference between automakers. Mini's ranking, for example, equates to 1.65 problems per vehicle. Top-performer Lexus had 84 problems per 100 vehicles, or 0.84 per vehicle. So on average, less than one problem per vehicle separates the best brand from the worst.
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Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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So on average, less than one problem per vehicle separates the best brand from the worst.
but the "conservatives" that don't like stimulus should look at what China's stimulus package did for China and how "competitive" it made them, while doing so consider that their package was over more than half of ours, while our economy is about 3 to 4 times the size of theirs :
Beijing's leaders are patting themselves on the back for moving fast to prime the pump. Speaking at a conference over the weekend, Li Rongrong, head of the watchdog organization for China's largest state-owned enterprises, said earnings at those companies grew 26% in March compared with the same period a year ago. In a speech on Apr. 18 at the same conference, on the tropical island of Hainan, Premier Wen Jiabao said the government deserved credit for the good news. "China's rapid reaction in rolling out the stimulus package has resolved some prominent problems in the economy, strengthened market confidence, and stabilized people's expectations," Wen said. "Vigor and Commitment
Much of the juice is coming from state-owned banks. While the Obama Administration struggles to get U.S. banks to start lending again, Chinese banks are following government orders and flooding the country with loans. In the first three months of the year, new lending by Chinese banks grew 30%, to $676 billion. That means the banks are already more than 90% toward Beijing's target for the whole year.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Uh, i'm not sure your point there Mach,
i think this sums it up:
So on average, less than one problem per vehicle separates the best brand from the worst.
Point is American car quality is not up to par to foreign car quality though they are improving therefor that is why Toyota is doing better while American companies keep sinking (GM and Chrysler at least).... but too little too late so to speak...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Point is American car quality is not up to par to foreign car quality though they are improving therefor that is why Toyota is doing better while American companies keep sinking
you didn't really read the article then.
first off? Lexus is the best and Cooper Mini's are the worst. Cooper is a BMW product. that's foreign.
Cadillac was how much worse than Lexus? Does it even say? 1 more complaint per 100 cars or 2?
Chrysler was part OF Mercedes until just recently.
the difference between the brands is so small that it's indistinguishable.
as the article says.
lastly? the way they grade the vehicles is very subjective, it's a questionnaire sent to new owners....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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Well if American automakers didnt have cars that crapped out all the time they would be sitting a lot better.
Anyone remember the Pontiac Grand Am or Grand Prix of the 90s? Fell apart like no tomorrow. Chrysler mini-vans of the 80s? WOW...couldnt ever get past 50,000 miles without something major going out.
There is a reason Honda and Toyota came up through the ranks over the years. KIA I still think sucks though, and I still wont buy a Hyundai or however you spell it.
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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CCM...you really are clueless when it comes to cars...
I will agree with you on Chrysler products (even today they still have quality issues), but American automakers (GM & Ford) have been building cars and trucks that meet or exceed the quality of foreign automakers for years...
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It's all in the timing... Posts: 4303 | From: DSA | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: lastly? the way they grade the vehicles is very subjective, it's a questionnaire sent to new owners....
ahh and in your opinion someone can't make a honest and correct opinion on a car or cars they have driven or owned/leased? Only people like Retired can who is biased due to what his job is or was though he will never admit it? i guess we shouldn't have ordinary citizens on juries since they can't even make an intelligent decision on cars...
I've driven/owned both american and now Japanese car. Somehow I think i can tell which car gave me the better experience and I promise you it wasn't the American one...
There is a reason why Toyota and Honda keeps coming up on top all the time...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: Well if American automakers didnt have cars that crapped out all the time they would be sitting a lot better.
Anyone remember the Pontiac Grand Am or Grand Prix of the 90s? Fell apart like no tomorrow. Chrysler mini-vans of the 80s? WOW...couldnt ever get past 50,000 miles without something major going out.
There is a reason Honda and Toyota came up through the ranks over the years. KIA I still think sucks though, and I still wont buy a Hyundai or however you spell it.
Wow, something we actually agree on For once your not Mooing... but as for Hyundai I haven't heard anything truely bad about them... never owned/leased one but was planning on taking my aunt to go look at some since she is in market to buy a car...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: lastly? the way they grade the vehicles is very subjective, it's a questionnaire sent to new owners....
ahh and in your opinion someone can't make a honest and correct opinion on a car or cars they have driven or owned/leased? Only people like Retired can who is biased due to what his job is or was though he will never admit it? i guess we shouldn't have ordinary citizens on juries since they can't even make an intelligent decision on cars...
I've driven/owned both american and now Japanese car. Somehow I think i can tell which car gave me the better experience and I promise you it wasn't the American one...
There is a reason why Toyota and Honda keeps coming up on top all the time...
LOL..
i used to do repo work, i owned several tow trucks. i kept them working 24-7 on repair work too.
i towed just as many foreign cars off the side of the road as did American cars.
JD powers polled people who have owned a car for how long? 3 months? LOL... yeah they are an ADVERTISING company.
have you ever looked at NADA books to cacklack how cars hold value? Honda does well, so does Ford and GM, Toyota not so well last i looked.
Honda is the only foreign car that i would own and for only one reason; CHEAPNESS to operate.
i just this past week tried to change a timing belt on one for someone that is a good friend. i offered to do it for free. they buy parts.
i have all the tools and it seemed like it should be a pleasant way to spend the day with JR.
got all the way to the crank pulley (about 400$ worth of labor to non wrench spinners) and could not get it off.
now i own the second most powerful air torque wrench commonly available, there is one that is more powerful but it cost 600$ versus the 450 i paid for this one.
i opened the air up to 120 PSI and it still won't pull the bolt holding on the crank pulley.
i did everything but put a 5 foot cheater bar and use my Oxy torch. i did use the non-oxy torch and cooling propellant to alternately heat and chill the bolt.
if i put a 5 foot cheater bar and the oxy torch to it,and break the nut off? i turn a 1000$ job into a 2500$ job and the car ain't even broke. it's just maintenance.
the bolt is supposed to have 119 ft-pounds of torque on it. i hit it with over 250
why did i even do this? cuz the friend who owns this car just paid 700$ for a major tuneup at the honda dealer. the dealer said they need to come back ASAP to get a new timing belt.
that just pissed me off. screw that. now? they are going to have to pay 1000$ for the timing belt job at the dealer because the Honda line set the torque on the factory installers torque gun too high.
and if the dealer breaks it? you can bet the dealer will charge the owner, not the factory.
the car just went out of the extra$$ extended warranty which did not cover regular maintenance like tuneups and timing belts
i happen to know for fact that every car made is likely to have at least one major problem over the life of 200,000 miles. foregin or domestic.
it's just the way we (people) build cars. there is no noticable difference between most American and Japanese cars to auto repair people in generel.
sure, there's pigs, esp. when people want HP in small car, real big engines in a samll engine compartment will make a repair guy crazy every time. but that's customers choice ain't it?
the JD powers
Dependability Ratings by Brand Overall Dependability 1. Buick (GM) 2. Jaguar (Ford) 3. Lexus (same as Toyo) 4. Toyota 5. Mercury (Ford)
the biggest difference is how much money you have to spend, you get what you pay for, and if your more expensive car breaks? you pay alot more too.
before i started my repo biz, i managed a six bay repair shop for someone else, my cousins family have owned one continuously since their father started it in the early 50's.
i used to race dirt tracks and build my own cars and engines, i even built big 4X4's for ahwile.
there is no noticable difference
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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I've had my Nissan for a little over a year now Glass.. and the only problem I had with it was a recall that was fixed free of charge by Nissan... I've had both american and now Japanese and maybe to you there is no noticeable difference but to me there is and i am not saying that because it's implanted in my mind by the media... i am just telling you my own personal experience with both... my american cars constantly had problems and cost me alot in repairs... again that is just my personal experience and from what I see others have the same experience...
Btw isn't Jaguar not owned by Ford anymore and is one again a foreign car?
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Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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and i am not saying that because it's implanted in my mind by the media..
but i am and i've had my hands deep in the guts of hundreds of cars and trucks, i'm not basing it on a personal experience with five cars like most people. and not form the point of view of having to pay somebody else 700 for a tuneup.
i don't and never did work for any of the 'facturers either.
Jag was sold less than a year ago so it's reputation is Fords until much later this year, or early next
i am not GM person, i've always been a Ford person. but that's just silly game all of us car buffs play.
in my boats? i've always gone for the 350 chevy. i did have a boat once that had a429 ford engine in it, but i get rid of the motoer and put a 350 chevy in... marine parts are different from auto parts and chevy marine parts are cheap.
i have owned about 15 Ford Trucks-SUV's_Vans.
i've only owned about 8 Ford Cars.
i owned a 300ZX for along time. that thing sucked as far as quality and breakage. i worked on it all the time, but,it's the only car i've ever owned that i felt comfortable at over 100 MPH, so i kept it and drove it when i felt like being squirrelly.
i've owned Mustangs and T-Birds that were just as quick or quicker, but they just don't handle well at 100.
the only thing the Japanese cars are/were better at is fuel economy and the cheapest first 100,000 miles. after that first 100,000? they are all the same now, and i'm not even sure the first 100,000 miles are cheaper today.
i'm 6'2 190 and my hands don't fit very well into Japanese cars, but the newer American cars are just as bad for that as the Japanese now. even the new trucks can be a pain
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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To me Glass it doesn't matter how many cars a person has had it's what that persons' experience is with the cars they have owned/leased... I may have owned/leased less cars then you but to me American cars (not trucks) are not good enough quality to foreign cars.... that is not to say they aren't good quality just not GOOD ENOUGH... I do not know the mechanics of cars and i admit it but i do know from my own experience which cars hit my wallet more and which don't... that is what i based things on... my wallet and the end of the day that is all that matters...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: CCM...you really are clueless when it comes to cars...
I will agree with you on Chrysler products (even today they still have quality issues), but American automakers (GM & Ford) have been building cars and trucks that meet or exceed the quality of foreign automakers for years...
I have owned over 10 seperate cars. Trust me, I would rather buy American made. However, I would feel a LOT safer driving a 1991 Honda Accord on a long road trip over a 1991 Pontiac grand am anyday.
I favor Ford, especially Ford trucks such as the King Ranch.
If you want to get 200,000 miles out of a car your best bet is with a Honda or Toyota. There is just something they did with getting the best engineers on board instead of what Detroit did during the 80s.
Toyota has become so successful they built plants in the United States and now AMERICANS build Toyota vehicles.
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Way LESS jobs than American companies car for car...You are still putting Americans out of work when you buy foreign cars...I don't care where they are made...
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It's all in the timing... Posts: 4303 | From: DSA | Registered: Dec 2003
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just out of curiosity how many employees do foreign car companies employ that are American here and abroad? Roughly... both executive and non executive positions...
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Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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here's WHY the Japanese were able to add a few more dollars to engineering versus American cars:
n the Japanese health care system, healthcare services, including "free" screening examinations for particular diseases, prenatal care, and infectious disease control, are provided by national and local governments. Payment for personal medical services is offered through a universal health care insurance system that provides relative equality of access, with fees set by a government committee. People without insurance through employers can participate in a national health insurance program administered by local governments. Since 1973, all elderly persons have been covered by government-sponsored insurance. Patients are free to select physicians or facilities of their choice.
in "Freemarket" America? yo uare competing against a world of competitors that have figured out how to cut costs that you just cannot cut. they have been assited by their GOVERNMENTS! not hampered.
when the japanes car co's came to America? they didn't have the "legacy costs" that American car co's had. they WERE able to spend a few extra dollars by balancing engines (for instance) a balanced engine runs an extra 50,000 miles, today? there are no real difference anymore, except the legacy costs that have beaten up GM.
now, why did we allow the Toyota motor co come here when we can't go there?
to increase competition, was the competiotion fair? hell no! who profits and who loses?
we see clearly everybody that's losing, who profits?
hmmmmm....
Toyota builds employee health clinic in new factory to reduce health care costs 8. November 2006 18:44 In an effort to contain health care spending, Toyota Motor will construct a $9 million medical clinic for employees and their families at its new San Antonio truck factory, the Detroit News reports.
the gasoline (manipulated) crisis is what stomped them.
it really is depressing to hear so many people argue the wrong points all the time because it means that whoever is profiting is doing a good job of keeping thier heads low.
profit is not a bad thing. forcing co's into BK and having to break contracts simply because it's profitable (for a small few) is a very bad thing. that's what has happened in our country.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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There is no doubt about it and very simple to see if we would have left things alone GM and Chrysler would have never made it and that would have been a bad mistake and terrible for the country. Gm needed to reform itself to survive but did not have the capital to do so. And that my friends was a pure as the driven snow management fault
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise. Posts: 3827 | From: beautiful California | Registered: Sep 2008
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i admit it but i do know from my own experience which cars hit my wallet more and which don't... that is what i based things on... my wallet and the end of the day that is all that matters...
if that was the norm in America? then NOBODY would be driving Lexus or Cadilaac or even Buick.
we'd all drive SMART cars, not SUVs and truck and vans.
the economic crisis is what did GM in.
Toyota became the number one car seller as result of ridiculous oil prices. not before.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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now, why did we allow the Toyota motor co come here when we can't go there?
Why would we? I never seen Japan as a big market for U.S. cars except perhaps muscle cars for collectors.. just imo...
but as for the Japanese businessmen/corporations... they are very smart at business and i see them as samurai in suits who are cutthroat and wise when it comes to business unlike their American counterparts... to me what they did for their country economically since the end of WW2 is remarkable...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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if that was the norm in America? then NOBODY would be driving Lexus or Cadilaac or even Buick.
we'd all drive SMART cars, not SUVs and truck and vans.
the economic crisis is what did GM in.
Toyota became the number one car seller as result of ridiculous oil prices. not before.
I didn't say it was the norm or that it should be... just saying what I do for myself... saving money in however way possible in terms of cars is practical... to me buying an American car just to save American jobs that MAY cost me more $$ in the long run then to their foreign counterparts is rather silly...
American car workers do not care about jewelry workers and do not buy to save american jewelry jobs so why should i care about them? If anything it's every man for himself right now and if a foreign car saves me in gas, repairs, price at the dealer etc. that is what I will base my decision on what car i want to buy...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: And since the price of oil has come back down to realistic levels, the lots (dealerships) are full of hybrids that nobody wants...
You still haven't answered my question about how many Americans are employed in the foreign companies here and abroad or if someone else can answer it.. whomever knows the numbers roughly..
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: Toyota became the number one car seller as result of ridiculous oil prices. not before.
I think also customer service factors into it... to make a long story short my aunt is looking to buy a car and i took her last Friday to go look at cars here are the results in short list in order of visit:
1.Honda was so busy we were not able to get a salesman to help us out so we left
2. We went to Nissan next and the guy I got my car from wasn't in that day so we left. Btw I would of gotten $200 fee from him if my aunt bought from him just for referring her to him.
3. At Toyota they were busy as well but the salesman who attended to us was an azzhole. First mistake he made was dropping another person on us to show us the car (Carolla) instead of him taking us personally.2nd mistake he made was being belligerent and insulting to me when I offered $13K for the car and he practically laughed at me and pulled a couple of coworkers aside and asked them if they would sell a Corolla for $13k? In front of my mother and aunt. That is how or why car salesmen get a sleazy reputation. I kept my cool to see what he had to offer in price. He offered $16,200 for buying and $239 I believe for lease with $2,200 down. Needless to say i took my aunt and said let's get out of here. I looked in the newspaper after I left there to see comparable prices for the same car. All the other Toyota dealers were offering $13,998 for buy and $169 to $189 for lease for same $$ down. Like I said he was an azzhole and I am writing a letter to his manager to let him know why he lost the sale.
4. Next we went to Mazda, totally different atmosphere. Not too busy like the others and the salesman was of the uttermost professionalism. Very nice guy though I'm sure he was being so to make the sale. He looked like Bill Clinton, no joke and with a american flag tie. I haggled him down on price for a Mazda 3T in metallic blue of some sort. Sticker price was $19,050 and he finally went down to $17,900. I checked later and the price is comparable to other Mazda dealers.Also they were offering 24/7 roadside assistance. My aunt put down $500 deposit to think about it. She didn't take my advice on buying it a few days later and instead took my dumb cousins' advice not to buy it because he says the parts are too much or this or that. He's an idiot. I told her if she is going to listen to his advice and ignore mine and waste my time she should go with him instead and get the deposit back.She did a couple nights ago and salesman called me yesterday to try to talk to her which I didn't. But i told him i would see what i could do.
5. When i cool off and when my aunt gets back from her Costa Rica vacation I will take her to another Toyota place because she has her heart set on a Corolla. Hope she don't tick me off this time.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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American car workers do not care about jewelry workers and do not buy to save american jewelry jobs so why should i care about them? If anything it's every man for himself right now [/QB]
That's bullsh!t Mach...most American auto workers are VERY choosy from who they buy their goods from, and I guarantee you that average American autoworkers do indeed buy jewelry...I personally ONLY buy American if it is an option...
In answer to the second part of the STUPIDEST post I have ever seen above...
DIVIDED WE FALL!!!!!!!!
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It's all in the timing... Posts: 4303 | From: DSA | Registered: Dec 2003
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"The sale of Mazda shares by our partner, Ford, will not result in any change in Mazda's strategic direction," Mazda chief Hisakazu Imaki said. "We will continue our strategic relationship through our ongoing joint ventures with Ford."
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: That's bullsh!t Mach...most American auto workers are VERY choosy from who they buy their goods from, and I guarantee you that average American autoworkers do indeed buy jewelry...I personally ONLY buy American if it is an option...
Shows how much you know about jewelry... all diamonds are from foreign lands... Australia, Canada, South Africa, Russia etc. As well as gold/precious metals (though Palladium seems to be mined in Montana)are more from foreign lands and gemstones other then diamonds (very little are mined in U.S.)... as for manufacturing jewelry, 80% of diamonds are cut and polished in India... these are the commercial quality diamonds that are found more in mass produced jewelry in such places as Walmart, Zales, Kay Jewelers etc. higher quality diamonds are cut/polished in Tel Aviv, New York, Germany, Antwerp etc. Very little in NY actually compared to other cutting centers.
So I would rethink your statement again Retired one... because you can speak for yourself in terms of buying habits but you can't speak for others though you would like to.. and if you didn't know you were not buying American when it comes to Jewelry, you do now. So no you are not supporting my industry and i have no reason to support yours when I am more then satisfied with foreign cars (my previous american cars i filled up once or twice a week) who I gas up every other week saving me $$.
quote:In answer to the second part of the STUPIDEST post I have ever seen above...
DIVIDED WE FALL!!!!!!!!
So basically your biased and can't answer the question because of that or because you just don't know the numbers for Americans working in foreign car companies then. I only asked out of curiosity and not because i disagreed with you on anything. I thought perhaps since you are an insider you would know the #'s but I guess you don't. Perhaps I should ask Glass who most times is impartial and gives number facts instead.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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For once your not Mooing... but as for Hyundai I haven't heard anything truely bad about them... never owned/leased one but was planning on taking my aunt to go look at some since she is in market to buy a car...![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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