quote:Originally posted by glassman: that just proves he's a typical power hungry sherriff that need to be convicted of real crime to be put out of business. the Feds are very good at doing that when they are allowed to by their bosses (the AG and the Prez)
We'll let's just say that Bush and his AG's never did anything so they can protect their own (GOP) so now Obama is...
quote:i never defended him. i questioned the definition of torture.
I would say strapping someone to a chair and such while you laugh at his injuries and watch him become brain damaged or dead as being torture ... as well as murder or manslaughter...
quote:going back to the original article? i still say that marching prisoners from one point to another in shackles is not torture. it can be torture. but the article described no torture.
Have you ever marched in a Arizona desert in the thick of summer with no water and shackled?
quote:isn't this the same guy that issues pink underwear to the inmates too? people even calim that's cruelty. i don't see it that way.
Yes, he is the one and that is not the issue at all.
quote:furhtermore? there's alot of poeple in those jails that he has that we want kept there.
Excluding the illegal immigrant suspects, yes we want them kept there. The issue is their treatment and as I shown they are not treated well. And I am not talking about just the murderers,rapists, violent cons etc. I am talking about ones who made stupid mistakes like being drunk in public, bar fights, getting caught smoking a joint, DUI etc. all the non violent offenders. Because he is so loyal to his deputies and such they pretty much do what they want knowning he will exonerate them of any wrong doing as the evidence has shown on numerous occassions. Do read what I posted Glass before again you defend him which you are doing. One of those who died in his custody was a all star WHITE athlete of some sort since you do not care how immigrants are treated or if they die in his custody.
quote:it's obvious that two different political agendas are meeting head-on in the immigration issues Mach.
No one again is saying illegals should not get arrested.
quote:i stick to facts as much as i can to come up with a position.
facts are that people suffer everywhere.
as of a couple of years ago. the coyotes and the drug smugglers became one in the same. now the money is in the drugs cuz nobody in their right mind wants to come here when there's no jobs.
You are not sticking to the facts and people who are in custody should not be suffering at the hands of their jailers.This is not a immigration issue. If he arrested illegals and treated them humanly as well as the inmates who are not in there for immigration issues then no one would be questioning how he is doing things. The fact of the matter is he mistreats inmates up to the point that some are forever physically damaged or some even die as the results of the injuries they suffer in the hands of him and his deputies. You are making this a immigration issue when it clearly is not judging by his past record on his job. This article perhaps makes it a immigration issue while I do not see it that way. What this article says is he targets hispanics at random without confirming if they are illegal. So in other words yet AGAIN if i was vacationing in his town and he all of a sudden told his people go arrest hispanics. I would be arrested on the spot on the street without verifying if i'm illegal or not and keeping me in jail without doing so. No one is saying he is raiding job sites. He is picking people up on the street at random if they are hispanic. I hope you get it now. geesh.
quote:the fact that we have prisoners living in tents brings up a very interesting point about how we are running this country doesn't it?
He does that so they do not live in comfort and not for any other reasons. And to me it is dangerous to have inmates in tents only. No security at all imo.
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quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: He does it because there is no room left. Point being we have too many people in jail. Pointless laws need to be repealed.
Rockefeller laws need to be repealed in NY that is for sure but you do not see our prisoners in tents in NY and the population is way bigger here. So something is not kosher in AZ with him if he can't house them like we can. If they are overcrowded then non violent cons should be let out early. Thieves, joint smokers etc. As for having pointless laws repealed in AZ. I can't really comment about that because i do not know their laws. I just know that the Rockefeller laws in NY definetly need to be repealed.
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actually, you are contradicting the article you posted.
the article you posted does in fact say it is an immigration issue.
blatant example of his contempt for civil rights occurred on Feb. 4. Arpaio rounded up 200 immigrant detainees and forced them to march, shackled, into a segregated "tent city" surrounded by electric fences in the Arizona desert.
you'll note that Feb 4 is summer in the desert IN AUSTRALIA! .
and i have marched in much worse consitions than that unshackled, but then i was not in custody, i was enlisted. i have blown glass in the dessert in teh middle of summer too...
if the guy gets convicted of crimes he's done? he deserves it.
however, your article does make this about illegal immigration. it was written by Albor Ruiz..
he also recently wrote an article claiming that illegal immigrants who have no criminal record should not be arrested for working. he seems to not understand that working without proper registration *is* breaking the law...
quote:Originally posted by glassman: This is not a immigration issue.
actually, you are contradicting the article you posted.
the article you posted does in fact say it is an immigration issue.
blatant example of his contempt for civil rights occurred on Feb. 4. Arpaio rounded up 200 immigrant detainees and forced them to march, shackled, into a segregated "tent city" surrounded by electric fences in the Arizona desert.
you'll note that Feb 4 is summer in the desert IN AUSTRALIA! .
and i have marched in much worse consitions than that unshackled, but then i was not in custody, i was enlisted. i have blown glass in the dessert in teh middle of summer too...
if the guy gets convicted of crimes he's done? he deserves it.
however, your article does make this about illegal immigration. it was written by Albor Ruiz..
he also recently wrote an article claiming that illegal immigrants who have no criminal record should not be arrested for working. he seems to not understand that working without proper registration *is* breaking the law...
so what i'm questioning is the veracity of the story you posted, since Ruiz obvioulsy has an agenda.
Everyone had an agenda but even though Ruiz may make it a immigration issue the 2,500 lawsuits against that sheriff and his county are not all about immigration. In fact the stories i posted to you about those deaths had nothing to do with immigration. You only want to make this an immigration issue and nothing else. I am expanding this topic and showing you that this guy abuses everyone in his jails. Not just immigrants. For the love of god don't you get already with my posts on this thread I am not disputing that illegal immigrants should or should not get arrested. I am saying he should be arrested or fired for his treatment of ALL prisoners in his jails. It has already led to deaths and physical harm to alot of them over the years. He has 2,500 lawsuits against him for wrong deaths and other issues. That is 50 times more suits then NY, CA and other states COMBINED!. Don't you think if he was not abusing prisoners he would not get sued so much or be investigated. Another abuse is when he goes after reporters who try to write stories on his abuses. One reporter went to gov't offices to view PUBLIC records. He sent his deputies to intimidate and harass the reporter and were going to arrest him if he read the PUBLIC records. There was even a standoff between the sheriff's boys and the Phoenix PD. He is nothing more then a Gestapo in modern times with a badge.
Another thing you never answered me is do you think he is correct in arresting me on the street just because i am hispanic and not verifying if I am illegal or not?.
Btw Feb. 4th is summer in the jungles of Costa Rica.. what is your point?. I have been in such conditions and I felt like I was going to pass out. Mistreatment of prisoners here is wrong Period!. No one is saying Cons shouldn't be in prisons but we cannot mistreat them , torture them, murder them and then preach to China and the world about Human Rights. That would make us a bigger hyprocrite then PMS and his Section 8 rentals.
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posted
Another thing you never answered me is do you think he is correct in arresting me on the street just because i am hispanic and not verifying if I am illegal or not?.
no.
Feb 4th is not summer in AZ.. get over it.
i read the article you posted. it does not talk about killing people or torturing them. it doens't talk about him picking up people off the street for no reason either. i read the article and it does not say he rounded up innocent people off the street. it says he "rounded up detainees" which is simply a writers way of inflaming imagination to make them sound like cattle. or worse.
it talks about petitions and " career out of his "toughness" in dealing with immigrants there are 40,000 - 40,000! - felony warrants outstanding in his jurisdiction. "
you bring other stuff to the table and expect me to know about it?
i don't live there. i don't like COPS style tv shows either. i think they are setups from the word go.
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: he also recently wrote an article claiming that illegal immigrants who have no criminal record should not be arrested for working. he seems to not understand that working without proper registration *is* breaking the law...
so what i'm questioning is the veracity of the story you posted, since Ruiz obvioulsy has an agenda.
Just read your article. Where does he mention workplace raids? Not once from what I read. He mentions hispanics being pulled over for traffic violations or walking down the street who are arrested with no probable cause to do so.
How would you like to be a legal or even a citizen hispanic like me in your friends car and then your friend gets pulled over for a broken tail light and only for you to get arrested on suspicion of being an illegal immigrant based solely on race and nothing else? That is what the article is about. Read it again word for word.
"Sheriff Joe" happily summarized the added value of the 287(g) program like this: "When we stop a car for probable cause, [now we can take] the other passengers, too."
What probable cause? A broken tail light means your an illegal immigrant?
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quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli:Where does he mention workplace raids? Not once from what I read. He mentions hispanics being pulled over for traffic violations or walking down the street who are arrested with no probable cause to do so.
right here:
A couple of weeks ago, a study by the Migration Policy Institute revealed that 73% of the people arrested since early 2008 in much ballyhooed ICE raids had no criminal records. Yet the flashy paramilitary operations were billed by the Homeland Security Department as carefully planned dragnets for dangerous "immigrant fugitives."
The truth, though, came out in the study: Raids do little to enhance national security or solve the immigration crisis.
the much ballyhooed ICE raids are conducted at workplaces... it's the first paragraph.
i've seen them on the news every week for months. even here in MS.
this would not be happening if there weren't millions of illegals here.
probable cause works on every crime.
in case you didn't know? they bust peopl for dope from broken tail lights too..nature of the business.
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: probable cause works on every crime.
in case you didn't know? they bust peopl for dope from broken tail lights too..nature of the business.
Yes, but dope dealers are not arrested from probable cause due to race while hispanics in cars are. I'm in your car Glass in MS and you get pulled over for broken taillight... what suspicious act or probable cause does he have for arresting me except for the fact I am hispanic. that my friend is called Racial profiling much like they did with middle eastern men after the wake of 9/11 and black men throughout their own lives...
Again the issue about this Sheriff is not immigration though Ruiz is making it that... he is being investigated by the Feds for more then just immigration issues... that is my point... nothing else... you can find half a dozen or more articles around the country about this guy that has nothing to do with immigration... you are only being narrow minded with this thread and not letting it expand to other areas of this guys' abuse towards incarcerated people...
I still do not know why you insist on only focusing on the immigration issue when it comes to this guy... when I am showing you that he is being investigated for issues not immigration related as well...
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posted
you are only being narrow minded with this thread and not letting it expand to other areas of this guys' abuse towards incarcerated people...
no, you are being narrow minded and accusing me of stuff i didn't do.
go back and find where i defended the guy.
it ain't there, cuz i didn't do it.
i said marching prisoners is not torture. and it ain't. yo then tried to suggest a lie that he did it in the summer.
furthermore i said that the article seemed to me to be inflamatory which it is. and you have been inflamed. i read it straight up without getting inflamed. he rounded up detainees. that's what it said. it didn't sya he rounded up people of the street and frog marched 'em.... but that's exaclty what he wanted you and everybody else to think.
go down there and check out what's going on at the Mexican side of the border for yourself. you might not make it out alive, and it ain't racists that are the problem on the Mexican side, they're killing everybody
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posted
The whole deal is a big mess. Its just like that car chase thing we were talking about a few months ago. Investigating crimes after the fact without trampling on anyone's rights is 10 times more difficult than catching the offender(s) in process.
quote:To top it all, the 287(g) program is, as Shahani put it, "a huge drain of tax dollars." It doesn't provide funds for implementation, and shifts massive immigrant detention costs to local governments, straining already crowded jails.
This is what I really don't like. Fed ICE didn't do its job at the borders so now states and cities have to pick up the exponentially increased tab.
I don't really care for this sheriff. I think he likes being a hot shot. I do think he (or someone like him who is on a crusade) is necessary for Washington to take this discussion seriously though. As much as it sucks for those who get caught up by him.
Until our southern border is verifiably secure Hispanics are going to be looked at with suspicion.
Do the numbers: Hispanics make up 15% of our population (roughly 45Mill)
The current population of illegal immigrants in America is estimated around 11 Million by Pew Hispanic Research Center. (Some groups says a much as 20 Million, some say as few as 7 Million...I thought this a fairly conservative estimately that was likely closest to the truth.)
***I'm going to discount the already conservative number of 11 Million by 20%. I don't believe this is true, but to stave off an inevitable argument I am going to say in my numbers that a full 20% of the illegal immigrant population is not Hispanic.***
Going from the above information you get the conclusion that 8.8 Million Hispanics are in this country illegally. With a total population of 45 Million that means just shy of 20% (1 out of five) of the Hispanic population is not legal to be here.
Remember these are conservative estimates all. With these kind of numbers going... yes... Hispanics are going to be looked at by the general populace with suspicion. Not saying its right, saying that is human nature.
I will say that the problem will not go away and the Hispanic population will continue to be unfairly biased against until that southern border is controlled.
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posted
IMO it really is simple. come down very hard on employers and the illegals will go home on their own.. no fence needed. drug smugglers will still dig under it.
it's not complicated....
this is one of the few laws where people can calim ignorance and get off....
they say they didn't know the guy who is willing to work for 1/2 normal wages, can't speak english and has a bogus SS# is an illegal
i'm not interested in throwing people in jail, they keep coming back cuz people will hire them. it's not hard. don't allow anyone who hires them to make a profit.
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My SS card says "do not laminate" or sumpin to that effect...
So it's got many years of wallet wear n tear, stains, etc...
Why don't we legit card-holders all have new ones, with bar codes? laminated, protected, etc...
On a slightly different tack...when I hire a guy or a crew for day-work, and they produce SS cards--or they've already shown them to the city day-labor force--how can I say, "No, that's a fake SS card." ???
Seems to me we keep making problems more complicated rather than simpler...
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quote:IMO it really is simple. come down very hard on employers and the illegals will go home on their own.. no fence needed. drug smugglers will still dig under it.
How about those providing housing for illegals? They're making a profit off the illegals. How about the states and cities that are providing WELFARE and other government handouts to illegals via their children who are citizens? How about providing medical care to illegals? How about individuals that hire illegals to do child care or lawn work - are you going to punish them along with the big employers?
I agree with you that punishing employers for hiring illegals is a good start. I would also punish landlords who rent to them; state and local governments who provide sanctuary and other benefits; hospitals who provide medical care, etc.
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we could have instant SS verification, but some people feel it would be an invitation to invasion of privacy... of course those same people have no problem getting a passport to travel overseas.. when i lived in VA? they put your SS# on your drivers license and it was also expected to be on your checks...
the "scary vision" is one of checkpoints where papers are requested by Gestapo like agents.
ideally? i think we could have a PIN# type security card linked to your SS acount which would thne be doubly verifiable...
people don't really want that, but i've already been thru immigratin checkpoints inside the US many times.. and they just passed me thru without asking, because we were 50 miles form the border.
states that issue DL's to illegals could face losing their federal hwy funding for starters.
there are a half dozen areas where this problem is allowed to flourish. people want freedom, but then they abuse it.
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posted
combining DL/SS is a terrible idea: you may as well just hand over your credit cards, checks, whatever to identity thieves...
I understand the scary part, but still the gumment needs to have some teeth, not gums.
I quit picking up day labor off the street once I realized I was only hurting myself. Plus, now you can get a ticket. Instead I use the city's labor office. It's more hit-or-miss than when I could size up the guys myself, but I assume they've been checked. In fact, if I were running it, I'd have it such that they have to check back in with proof of pay so the city could handle the 1099s.
Bottom line is, the gumment waves tiny little hands and gnashes gummy lip service...but doesn't really want to end it. Whether that's because of sales tax, "free" SS contributions via fake SS cards, or a ready pool of draftees...I dunno. But the facts are obvious.
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VA is primarily ex-military people, so the SS# didn't seem such a big deal at first. then i realised that SS#'s were basically being used as elctronic signatures for credit application purposes etc...
this was back when an IBM 486 PC was state of the art, and few people had internet yet..
so, the scary part of a national ID...
how do we find a way to fix it?
they went along way toward fixing it by requiring all people traveling out of the country to get passports.
seems to me we could apply insta-check on guns to jobs too...
the real problems are in "temp work" like the cosntruction trade where people don't really have a permanant job...
but factories that have hundreds of illegals were operating with impunity...
595 workers arrested in Mississippi ICE raid (front page)
BY SUSAN LAMONT CARROLLTON, Georgia—Nearly 600 immigrant workers were arrested August 25 in Laurel, Mississippi, after agents from Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) descended on Howard Industries, Inc., a major producer of electrical transformers. It is the largest such workplace raid to date.
All entrances to the plant were sealed by heavily armed ICE officers wearing flak vests, according to the Jackson Clarion-Ledger. Hispanic workers were segregated from other plant employees, and mobile trailers were set up to conduct interrogations of workers, most of whom were then taken to nearby jails.
Nearly 500 of the 595 arrested are being held at the new ICE detention center in Jena, Louisiana. Others are being held in Mississippi jails.
An attorney for eight of the workers said they face criminal charges of using false Social Security cards and identification papers. If convicted they could get two years in prison and/or a $250,000 fine.
“We began getting indications that ICE was planning something about 10 days ago,” explained Bill Chandler, executive director of the Mississippi Immigrants Rights Alliance (MIRA), in a telephone interview with the Militant. MIRA is helping organize defense for the workers arrested, as well as aiding families affected by the raid. In addition to U.S.-born Black and white workers, many of the 800 workers at Howard are immigrants from Mexico, Panama, Brazil, Guatemala, Germany, and other countries. The plant is organized by the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers.
“We began to get calls from workers on the Gulf Coast and in the Hattiesburg and Laurel area that ICE was becoming more visible,” Chandler said. “Others told us that ICE was recruiting legal staff and judges in the area, another indication that a raid was coming.”
quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: Glass, dont talk bad about hiring illegals now...there are people here who think they have constitutional rights like you and me.
they do have constittuional rights. but in order to work they have to have a green card. no green cards should be issued to people within our borders, there are plenty of honest law-abiding people waiting outside our country to come here that cannot because these people came here and took jobs illegally.. they are the real victims.
we allow legal immigration here. we control how many people come to our country to work based on the jobs available.
they have the right to work here, if they follow the rules. they don't? bust 'em, and the businesses that hire them too.
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quote:Hispanic workers were segregated from other plant employees, . . .
That's just wrong.
Everybody should be questioned and made to prove up...
That is my point... racial profiling... imagine how many non hispanic illegal aliens never get arrested or deported in this country...
But anyways even more disturbing to me is how everyone, especially Glass, is only focusing on immigration when it comes to this jerk instead of focusing of his abuse of ALL prisoners in general. That is the central issue about this jerk for years and not immigration.
Yet because everyone has a hard on for the immigration issue, especially Glass, they choose to ignore this guys' past and present history of abuse of immigrant and non immigrant prisoners alike.
I'll say it once again, I do not disagree that if an illegal alien is caught they shouldn't be arrested, deported etc. but that does not mean you should racially profile hispanics and abuse prisoners of all offenses while they are in your custody leading to injury and death. That is why this guy is being investigated over the years and not immigration.
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posted
If anybody wants me to prove I am an American on the spot I don't think I could they would have to pull my records all I have on me is a few credit cards,drivers lincense, and a ss card all of which illgals have or can get.
The Mexcan border is a special case all in its own. It has always been a border that both sides have walked across very freely most people that live near the border have relatives on both sides and Mexicans have worked here before most of the south west was part of the US and some times visa versa.Also a lot of the young Mexican childern go to school on the American side of the border. The answer is and always will be help northern mexico create jobs or get tough and arrest American employers and impound thier property.
Picking on starvinfg people trying to feed themselves is moronic and bad police work. And I am not pointing a finger at sheriff Joe I really cannot get involved in that discussion but I can have an opinion about illegals and I don't think the way we treat them is wright.
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I am not disputing that illegal immigrants should or should not get arrested. I am saying he should be arrested or fired for his treatment of ALL prisoners in his jails. It has already led to deaths and physical harm to alot of them over the years. He has 2,500 lawsuits against him for wrong deaths and other issues. That is 50 times more suits then NY, CA and other states COMBINED!. Don't you think if he was not abusing prisoners he would not get sued so much or be investigated. Another abuse is when he goes after reporters who try to write stories on his abuses. One reporter went to gov't offices to view PUBLIC records. He sent his deputies to intimidate and harass the reporter and were going to arrest him if he read the PUBLIC records. There was even a standoff between the sheriff's boys and the Phoenix PD. He is nothing more then a Gestapo in modern times with a badge. 
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